Open 279 - Rusty Guillotine Mafia - Game Over!

[RedCoyote]

Vote: LuckayLuck

His name looks the most like Drekava.

[RedCoyote]

Randomly selecting someone and asking him a generic question and you're done for the day is what I deduce to be your "reasoning".

I don't really know what Concission is going for here, but at this point I think she's only half-joking. This seems like a desparate attempt to be comical, either that or it's poor logic. Either way, Concission is trying too hard.

Unvote

;

vote: Concission

---

I'm agogly waiting...

Was this supposed to be eagerly? How do you mispell a word that badly?

I mean, I guess this isn't game related, it's just... wow...

---

1. The randomly generated lynch mechanic. I've been in a few games with rushed lynches and even, IIRC, no-lynches due to lapses in either activity or decisiveness. It's maddeningly bad enough in games with standard lynch mechanics. If it happens here then I will be furious.

I'm sorry; I'm lost. What "randomly generated lynch mechanic"? The only mechanic is the guillotine.

---

Scum:
Antitown
Percy
RedCoyote

Oh, please. If I was scum facing townFate you and I both know I'd just immediately surrender.

---

God fucking damn it. I was under the impression from the wiki that the player on the guillotine could vote but not post but looking back at Hitorogoshi's activity rule it looks like he can post, too.

It happens. I'm still unsure what you mean by the "randomly generated lynch mechanic" though.

---

The vig should shoot the first person we put on guillotine. Since we cannot no-lynch, it is important to get that kill through so that we have an odd number of players. Best chance to do that is to shoot while the scum have the largest number of potential RB targets. Also, early information FTW.

This is a good point. I hadn't even considered this. I agree 100%.

We will probably want the vig and the redeemed soul to claim early. Not today, obv, but maybe tomorrow. If either gets CCed, we've gained a coinflip. If neither do, we have the beginnings of a sweet little voting bloc and will force the scum to kill them off, thus protecting our tracker.

I absolutely agree. The scum have a Role Cop, so we might as well claim fairly early. If we don't, chances are that the scum will find them soon enough anyways.

We might consider requiring the person on guillotine to take on a leadership role in selecting the next lynch. Thus we will seed the thread with information to be exploited after the inevitable cardflip.

Agreed. They should be more vocal in either case. That would be the most townie thing they could do at that point, regardless of their role.

---

Also don't like Ythill's call to discuss something other than the previous four pages and something unlikely to aid in scumhunting

Could you be more specific? Which one of Ythill's points are unhelpful to the town?

---

by the way, is there a way to view more than 20 posts a page?

*25, but I don't think so.

---

(which I didn't find illuminating anyway)

This is the second time you've made this point without backing it up. That's too much.

Unvote

;

vote: Simenon

---

Did you seriously just claim to have been reading isos. on page 5?

You just wait until he pulls out his PbPA on me.

[RedCoyote]

Oh, wow. So it is. I owe you an apology, SD. I looked it up as agogly and got nothing, but when I looked up agog I found it.

Normally I wouldn't have even commented on it, but I'm in kind of a pissy mood today. Still, sorry about that SD. You know more than me (which isn't saying much, mind you).

Also, I'm not really getting the VPB hate so far. Does someone want to enlighten me here? Ythill, for some reason, neglected to mention his reasoning. The only thing I've really gotten is AGM telling us he didn't like how he approached Concission, but I don't know about that. I guess I just completely disagree.

[RedCoyote]

And I'm really glad UK isn't in this game; can you imagine how annoying she'd be on guillotine?

I feel bad for laughing at this.

[RedCoyote]

I'm feeling a little bleh right now. I like zora's entry though, and I'm glad Simenon is feeling a little more pressure for being our worst offender thus far. I need to take a good hard look at LL (nothing caught my eye in a very, very quick skim through his posts) as well as reconsider my position on VPB in light of Ythill's exchange with him. I want to respond to Concission and get her to talk a little more, and I want to poke Fate to get him to rattle some cages. I think, still relatively fresh off of calling scumFate in DEFCON 2.0, I have more confidence in my ability to assess his alignment as the game rolls on. This is something I can hopefully use to my advantage in finding scum, be it through him or connected to him. He's got one of those big personalities that draws a lot of reactions.

That's sort of my mental D1 checklist, heh. Call me out if I don't live up to these promises.

[RedCoyote]

Spoiler: From Page 6 On

I don't know what you mean by "backing it up." I didn't think a discussion of whom we should vig was helpful or interesting, and it didn't reference the previous four pages. What's to back up?

You've implied that Ythill's points are harmful to the town. That's fine; that's a perfectly valid opinion to have. I asked you why you felt that way. Then you did it a second time, again, with no real explanation. Just mudslinging on Ythill without proposing any solutions in opposition to his. I happen to agree with his approach to the game (for the most part, that is. Percy shot down his first point, and his third point needed a little clarification, but it was in the right general place). I want to know specifically why it's harmful to the town other than you just want to be a nameless face in the general opposition to the town planning any sort of strategy in approach to the game. I completely disagree with that mindset, so much so that I think it's scummy to have that position without at least trying to convince me of it.

---

It doesn't really matter when the vig uses his shot other than the risk of a blocked or killed vig.
On the other hand the tracker would want to claim as late as possible to gather as much information as possible, but that improves the gain of a counter-claim for scum.

What about the Role Cop though?

---

I never said that elusiveness is town. I said that was a meta that Fate seems to be implying that Antitown was using (that's the cute scum game). I don't think he could have been aware of that meta, though, because he's too new.

Oh, I guess I misunderstood your post then. This sounds too close to defending AT. I think AT is capable of handling that part himself, you know, since he knows what alignment he is and you don't, right?

---

Your reasoning is very hard not to laugh at. You intend to ask a specific person what their opinions of the Set-Up are then brand that person as town for stating their opinions of the Set-Up? What would you think scum would do, ignore you? Then you go on to call people who are scum-hunting scum because they didn't reply to your question specified to only Crypto. To me that sounds silly and fabricated on a whim.

I can see both of your points, but I still don't like the way you framed the second-to-the-last sentence. My recollection is that he asked crypto a question, you inquired as to why, he explained, and you called him out for that. You having an issue at all with VPB interrogating crypto to begin with was what caught my eye, the rest just made you look worse.

I was not joking, what makes you think I was joking?

I am saddened by your misconcern for the rest of the players and wary of your half-hearted attempt to generate discussion.

This isn't tongue-in-cheek? You were literally saddened?

---

I don't think this is right.

D1 - 14 players, guillotine one.
N1 - 13 players after mafia NK.
D2 - If vig triggers early death for guillotined player, we're back to an even number of players.

This is a good point. I was thinking that the Vig shot would take place today, but I think Percy is right here. The person has to be on the guillotine to be shot.

---

meh, now antitown is feeling too easy. I don't care for this, but he's also not doing himself any favors. I want AT to get in here asap and explain the Fate case in detail.

Like crypto brings up, I'm getting sick of this argument. I think I may have used it once before, and I apologize to whoever I used it on. I've had it used against me when I've wanted lynches before, though, and it's really quite annoying.

---

Hell, it's even a little manipulative. But manipulation shouldn't have a negative connotation either when I'm trying to manipulate people into

thinking about what scum do

- that's all.

You know, LL, I've got to kind of go with Sim on this one. Something about that last sentence feels off, and your explanation here doesn't do you any favors, namely this part I quoted. It sounds a little over the top. This is kind of minor, but I'll let you know if I decide to move on something like this. I'm comfortable with my vote at the moment though.

---

His scummy lean toward voting for the lead wagon in #108.

I can buy this.

Noting here that a town-aligned player with your views should be accusing me of role fishing at this point. Why haven't you?

I can't buy this. I mean, you're not really rolefishing regardless of what LL has to say about your plan. I don't like this comment in general, honestly. You're leading him on. LL will make whatever accusations he feels appropriate, none of us have the responsibility of telling him what to do and not to do, which is exactly what your comment comes across as. If anything, this is more like you coaching him than him not coming at you with whatever scripted argument you think he should.

---

I've been wanting to play in a game with Percy for a long time just so he could bust out stuff like this and pwnzorz scum.

Do you think you'll be better prepared to gauge Fate, Percy, and my alignments this game?

I don't get why LuckayLuck is scum. The setup spec is bad, for sure, but I don't think scum would blatantly post such a dumb idea (think about it: when you're scum in a game with a competent town and open setup, do you sit around thinking about how to appear town or how to secretly trick town into following a bad plan…obviously the former). If she's scummy for other reasons I don't see those either, really.

Jarti seems to fit the profile of the "lurkerscum" pretty well.

I agree with both of these points, but disagree with your VPB case in general. Ythill's point are better, imo. I mean, does Concission just seem more honest to you? I'm having trouble seeing the issue with VPB at that juncture. Maybe he was a touch defensive, but I think you're blowing it out of proportion. What do you think about Sim?

---

This one is completely ludicrous because I was one of the people actually questioning antitown. See post 87 onward. It's pretty clear that I'm giving AT the benefit of the doubt and trying to get him to explain his Fate stance...as opposed to several people that came later and essentially sheeped onto him.

And...? This isn't answering the question. He asked you about that specific post. Just because you had historical evidence that shows you were analyzing AT doesn't mean that you aren't effectively laying the groundwork for a potential switch. Be straightforward.

---

I'm just pointing out though, that if you think Jarti is scummy as hell, that I would hope it gives you pause on voting me. (I don't even know your reasoning for voting me. GG?)

gg means "good game". crypto is being a smartass. I think you raise a good point here and I'd like his response to it.

---

Luck is as obvtown as it gets. I have no interest in a VP lynch today.

I think I agree. I haven't seen anything to really push me into a LL lynching mood.

---

I'm obviously not playing well this game; I'm not sure why.
I think I have spent an unfair amount of this game explaining that observation about Ythill.

What?!

You haven't explained it at all, Sim.

Jarti wagon piques my interest. Man is trying too hard.

I don't think he's trying hard enough.

---

I'll just have to look town-ish, to you, by presenting arguments on why people are scum and on why people are townie then. Fighting the good fight, playing the good game and all.

Wow, you know, here it is again. That language. This is totally inflated. I can see Sim's point about you... again.

---

This is some major BS right here. Why? What are we rushing for at the moment? We have until Feb. 27 to lynch and it's not like people are not contributing good content at the moment. There are several people I would like to get a better read on before this day is over. There is absolutely no reason to rush Day 1 in this game so it lasts just over 72 hours. That's fucking ridiculous and you need to explain your desire to lynch now.

This is a good point, Ythill. You seem very eager to get a lynch going. I can understand, in part, since we won't actually get a flip at the end of the day, so we may as well hurry along. Still, I think you've been atrocious at engaging with LL so far. Ironically, Sim is the only player I've seen to make a decent point against LL yet. It's a shame he's scum.

---

Others should note you buddying to the aggressors, touting your own work ethic (welp), and chaining reads on page 2. That's 3/9 of the tells I've got listed for you, all in your first post. Good job.

There we go. This is what I wanted to see. Now it isn't so one sided. Let the fireworks begin, LL, because this is better than I thought it would be.

---

*sniffs RedCoyote*

I hope you're ready for a wall, friend. I didn't realize this was going to be such a text heavy game, but I'm good for it. What do you smell?

---

Hmmmmmmmm. Whilst Jarti is leaning scum for me, LuckayLuck is eroding my townread of him.

I feel the same way, although I didn't bring up Jarti because I didn't really see anything worth commenting on. He's being too vague and I want him to engage people more rather than sitting back. I see no reason to call him or his posts town by any criteria.

This is twice that the VP-sass has been deployed against Antitown. This is the kind of trap I set as scum - try to establish a noob/scum paradigm, if the player comes and participates and demonstrates non-noob then they must be scum, if they don't then they're useless and worth lynching even if they're not scum. This kind of argument really bothers me.

How quaint. This is the kind of thing that seems like a tried and true tactic that I'll have to remember the next time I'm scum. In fact, I've probably unintentionally done this as scum before. Anyways, I think this fits, but I'm not sure if VPB is that, like, involved, for lack of a better word. Still, Ythill brought this up earlier and it really spoke to me. I want to hear VPB's response.

---

Vote: VP

Happy?

Is this in response to Ythill?

---

I didn't let my pressure off of him, but people like SD and Simenon chirping around the wagon without doing any of the work did give me pause. Still does.

So your a victim of circumstance then? I mean, do you think you'd have been called out on this (despite a pretty clearcut case of bad posting, imo) had Sim or SD not have voted AT?

Maybe that's how you play scum, but not me...so perhaps its best to consider what I'm saying as the actual truth.

But you still think AT is scum, right? I guess that's what keeping me from saying that you're right and Percy is just misguided at best or scum at worse. Does it bother you that I (or whoever else you want to swap in here) do not get the same vibe from AT at all so far this game?

His stance of Imma not respond to what you said is malarkey.

I agree to this in a political sense, but this is totally a null playstyle issue. Just drop it.

---

@RC: Why are you making promises instead of just doing it?

Heh. I like that aggression. Truth be told I'm a little under the weather. I'm not one to excuse myself though. Please enjoy my wall. You and crypto may pick it apart to your heart's content.

---

No one sees the multiple things wrong here? The waffling on the read? The paraphrased regurtation of what Percy had LITERALLY just said? The lack of any concrete evidence or references to actual posts?

All these things are true and all of them I agree with.

But

is he scum?

I don't know. Frankly, I need more. This is a total shot in the dark when compared with the vote I currently have.

VP is

so

the lynch today. I'll hammer when needed.

Are you being sarcastic here?

---

And got the prima facie implications but

it's still too early to chain alignments

and VP is still scummier than Anti. If you feel really strongly about it, we could probably compromise on Luck, yes? I mean, if the Anti vote means that VP is town in your eyes, then doesn't the timing suggest that

Luck is an Anti buddy

?

(emphasis added)

---

Hell, in this game, if I'm lynched day one, I'll play as hard as I would if I were alive (perhaps even harder) on day two. Not that I hope I get lynched on day one.

Thanks for telling people what they want to hear. There's that language again. All flowered up and pretty. I don't know, maybe it's just your playstyle that is rubbing me the wrong way.

---

@Red:

After Big Love, you should know very well how important vote movement and grouping is. Please stop throwing your vote away.

We're less than a week into this game, big man. Maybe I'm not around enough for Sim to be a major contender, but this is worth a go in my eyes. Even with you, Fate, VPB, and Luck butting heads for a leadership role.

I will give you that I see some promise in your LL wagon, but it relies so heavily on his playstyle that I don't want to abandon Simship. Rest assured if I thought the VPB, LL, or AT wagons were, one, really solid fundamentally, two, not artificially big (SD, Concission, AGM, and Jarti have no real gumption behind their votes, not enough for me anyways), and three, I had more of an impression on some of the players (honestly, as cliche as it sounds, I want to hear more from just about everyone before the day ends, flip or no).

Trust me, I'm not scared of a lynch, and I'm not being stubborn. If horse trading is the name of the game today, then I'll tell you that I'm just not convinced enough to vote any of those three I listed. Throw me a bone. Sim, SD, or Jarti need to feel some heat, and although I'd prefer Sim by a mile, these are wagons I'd immediately support.

tl;dr: [

Town

]-------zora-Fate-Percy---Ythill-AGM-[

∙

]VPB--crypto-Concission-AT-LL--Jarti-SD--Sim-----[

Scum

]

[RedCoyote]

AT, why are you posting the way you are? I forgot to ask this, but VPB is right. You really are being obtuse. I just read your iso. I don't like it. Show me something or I might be forced to sheep Fate.

[RedCoyote]

How could I live with myself? Fate would take over the entire game! When you give that man too much power, you're just asking for trouble.

[RedCoyote]

I'm not sold on his LL vote being genuine. I'm still waiting to hear back about the so-called "randomly generated lynch mechanic", which seemed completely out of the blue.

As much as I've had to say about you, I only have one real issue with you, and I'm not prepared to lynch you for it. Then again, I wouldn't want a crypto lynch either, preferably. The difference between you two is marginal if my scumscale didn't carry that across clear enough.

[RedCoyote]

And crypto, I really do like voting on my own terms whenever possible. I feel like I need more to justify an AT vote right now, but it's definitely not off the table by any means.

[RedCoyote]

Everyone gets a turn except for Sim? Is that how it works? Do you guys just not like me or what? I want to know what this sucka did to get all of your to give him a pass, that's what I want to know.

[RedCoyote]

I also think you guys might make me cry if you call me fake again.

It's just very agreeable. I guess that's how I'd put it. Almost passive, but with a little more heat to it. Anyways, hey, look, I honestly don't want to see you get the chop. I wish I could turn my charm on and off at will, but sometimes it works for me and sometimes it doesn't. I'll admit it'd probably have a greater effect if I were here a bit more and if Fate, VPB, and Ythill weren't all trying to one-up one another, but that's just the way it is.

Anyways, now you're making me look at you like a victim, damnit. Stop it.

---

The Batman, of course, is a metaphor for players who don't fall under the aforementioned category.

We'll start with Alamanatee.

Unvote. Vote: AlmasterGM.

I love your metaphor.

I can support this. This is a decent compromise; this is a decent case.

Unvote

;

vote: AlmasterGM

You're welcome, Ythill.

I do want to say that I still think Sim is a more agreeable lynch candidate here. Better than Luck and better than AGM. AT is probably someone I'd be willing to vote now. My reluctance in voting AT as opposed to AGM is only due to the fact that I know AGM knows he's ducking this thread. AT might actually be more unfamiliar with the game and, therefore, possibly more deserving of a pass.

---

Did you miss the part where I explained what I meant by that statement or do you think I was lying? I was using bombast to say "Luck is getting even scummier." Even if you don't believe me, note the part where I have been known to be impatient as town.

That's fine; I understand. The actual aggressiveness isn't as much the issue as it is that I didn't like how you hadn't really given LL anything to defend himself against. You did soon after, which I noted as well.

You should pay more attention to the parts you didn't emphasize. Context is key here because "I don't think doing A is wise but if you insist then let's at least find a more helpful way of doing A," is not a contradiction.

Yeah, I skimmed this; I get what you're saying here now. It's not even so much that I disagree with your conclusion there at the end (I saw the LL/AT buddy comment earlier as well, it's at the beginning of my big post), but I didn't like the phrasing of the comment all that much.

"Big man" has my hackles up a little but that's beside the point.

You know you like it.

---

also of note: RC's responses to AGM in his little catch-up post don't seem genuine, could be scum interacting with buddy for the sake of

For the sake of what? For it's own sake?

I thought it was adequate. I think he's more than capable of committing more.

but you are following closely enough to pop in when some minimal heat comes your way I see

I agree. This is what I thought. I'm willing to give AGM the benefit of the doubt (insomuch as he may have actually just wanted to genuinely pop in to acknowledge the game and make a promise), but I can't honestly say I'm not slightly more interested in this wagon now.

---

Whoever had zoraster as a #1 town read (above me even!?) was smokin something last page.

That was me, player. What are you going to do about it?

He's the only one with enough smarts to call out both Sim and SD. Oh, and he did it on his first post. What's your excuse?

---

As I said before, he's flown under the radar. crypto's points are strong

As I implied before, please don't look at me. Please, I'll vote whoever you guys tell me to. Please just don't wagon me, please.

Top three:
LL
Almaster
Concession
you've moved up there, mostly for your compromise bullshit and your weird behavior over the RC wagon.

Let me try to process this. Ythill is scummy for making a post about getting the town's strategy in order. You refuse to respond to it after being asked to, instead choosing to blanketly label it as scummy on two separate occasions. Then Ythill asks you for your top scum picks and AGM and Concession beat out Ythill? I can understand LL, because you've touched on him over the course of the game, but why the other two?

I do see your last sentence, so I'm guessing Ythill is actually at, like, four with you, but you seem really reluctant to actually take him on straight up. You just throw little sprinkles of suspicion out there as though you don't want to be the center of attention.

[RedCoyote]

I'm not really interested in defenses at this juncture. One of the reasons I'm so effective at finding the scumz after replacing in is that I get to weigh behavioral tells without arguing about them. I'd rather not lose to a convincing liar.

But I'm interested, and so should every other town-aligned player. You understand that, don't you?

---

SD's post 353 is good. He calls out a number of people and is trying to start some good conversations. If SD follows up on this, he'll have earned some serious points from me.

---

I never said claim, did I?

This sounds like doubletalk. I don't like your string of posts here at all, zora. I mean, they really, really leave a sour taste in my mouth. I didn't have much trouble with you pressuring AGM, but I feel like you're really squirming after VPB and crypto pressured you a bit. I mean, I get what you're saying. You're looking for reactions. The only reason I'm not prepared to just buy that at face value is that AGM is lurking. So, it's not like we're gauging how AGM is reacting to getting an increasing number of votes. Whether he logs on to see L-1 or logs on to see L-1 and a casual zora hammer threat makes little difference as far as I'm concerned.

---

JAgm doesn't need to claim, kjust post

Same to you.

---

Somewhat. But why does it matter when my main point is his insincere attitude?

It matters a lot. It means that (as this whole thing got started) I don't know for certain if you are joking about his attitude or not. The RVS is typically reserved for a lot of silliness. Frankly, Concission, I think it's you who is being insincere.

---

I don't know what to make of this. It's a nonsensical interpretation of my post. How does "x flew under the radar" become "please don't look at me"?

Your voting and reads are all completely based on how what you think will make you look the most townie rather than actual scumreads coming from a town-aligned player. Everything you say feels completely manufactured.

As I said, I erred with Ythill (context which you have conveniently ignored)

Well, seeing as how I'm the one who's most hard up for you to respond, you'd think you'd call my attention to this.

---

Are you perhaps on mafSepia?

I'm using Sepia and I see no issue with the VCs. Lucky me, I guess.

---

I cannot find any response of yours to Baltar adressing that. And if I'm not mistaken your attack on Ythill was not about his tone.

This

. I looked as well, and I couldn't easily find it.

---

AGM, in your post 411, could you explain your issue with LL, especially in regards to what he had to say about D1? I don't quite understand the disconnect, but it feels like this is an important point you're making.

I will now take your questions, criticisms, and praises.

Why's your vote still on VPB after all that?

---

I don't game mainly on mafiascum. I've played with different groups. Claiming when you are a confirmable role

as late as possible

is the standard. Why?

Generally the town doesn't want to give away the little information they have over the scum until they absolutely have to. However, this game provies somewhat of an exception to the rule in that the scum have a Role Cop. This significantly increases their odds of finding the PRs before they get a chance to claim.

---

Unvote

;

vote: Antitown

I think this man is bad news. I think LL and SD have both done a little more to make them seem more townie. Fate and crypto are both probably town, and they think this is a good lynch. All in all, Sim is probably the only one worse than Antitown at this point, so I'd be satisfied with this lynch.

[RedCoyote]

How wonderful. Because Antitown didn't realize several days ago that he'd never bother to give this game an honest try, right? I'm going to really tear into the next person I see do the whole "I'll post later... I'll post later... I'll post later... eh, can't keep up, replacing out" shit. It seems like the longer I play on MS the more agitated I get with flaking. This isn't even a particularly post heavy game. I guess the posts are a bit longer than average, but still.

Ugh. I echo what Fate says. I really don't want to have to read through an entirely new player and have to hear him respond to the hundred different little issues in this game. Then again, I guess at least Antitown was mostly a blank slate.

[RedCoyote]

Unvote

;

vote: Concission

Absolutely happy with this wagon. More to come.

[RedCoyote]

Which happily leaves seven players I can vote in good spirits. But they are far more difficult to sort. I have typed up three separate votes now, but I keep deleting them when I reread the player to make sure I like my vote. (The order has been: Simenon, Concission, and then Percy, for the record). I am unhappy without my vote on anybody right now, but I need rest; I clearly will need to read the game again before deciding where my vote will go.

I can go with this. This mostly falls in line with my reads, you know. I think you give zora, Jarti, and LL too much credit, but I'm sure you'll clarify as the game moves on.

I feel like he has been scumhunting; his posts read very genuinely to me so far. Can't really explain it beyond this.

The biggest thing is his most recent threat on AGM. Does this strike you as acceptable?

---

I do like that you seem to be getting a little more fire in your belly now that my vote is on you.

In what way? He knows how to bring his guard up when he thinks needs to. Big deal.

---

I caught him on very subtle posts pushing a Cult agenda (such as subtly directing opposing scum teams into killing the claimed Mason group who he could not recruit, and trying to gauge the Town's reaction to a Townie claim while I had correctly deduced that the Cult could only recruit Townies).

You're welcome to explain how I'm being subtle here. I've been pretty vocal about my likes and dislikes, if I do say so myself. Frankly, I'm ready for a lynch.

---

I feel like

Coyo

puts way more effort into exposing Simenon-scum than actually pushing for Simenon's lynch. Considering he's so fiercely anti-Simenon, I'm surprised he doesn't push harder for Simenon's lynch. Something to mull over.

I voted him for the first fourteen pages. I asked others multiple times to join me on the wagon. I mean, for crying out loud. This is pretty silly, because, you know, on the one hand I have Ythill breathing down my neck about how I'm being stubborn about my vote, and when I take a step back because I recognize no one is following me on Sim, crypto here is criticizing me because I wasn't forceful enough in the first place.

*shrug*

I mean, it's fine with me; I'll lead a wagon. I'm not scared of trying to out shout you guys. I haven't seen any improvement from Sim, and I'll vote him right now.

Unvote

;

vote: Simenon

Take away his scummy buddy-buddy style and

LuckayLuck

doesn't look too bad. Some of the things he says, and the timing of some of his observations and stances, indicate a town thought process. He's been forced to spend a lot of energy defending himself. I'd kill to see less of that and more analysis of other players; I think that's the key to deciphering his motives.

I'm not really convinced there's anything here besides playstyle and language issues, really. He's too focused on himself, I agree, but, then again, people are constantly wanting to talk about him.

---

Well, I promise I didn't catch up and only then read my role PM. I'm here to play the game, and not reading a role pm is antithetical to that. Mafia relies on honesty to work (meta-honesty that is... obviously not in game honesty) If I'm scum, I might try to write my posts forgetting that I'm scum, but I would never not read my role pm.

I had to read this several times until I understand what the hell you were trying to say. Did someone accuse you of not reading your role PM? I missed it completely.

I know his style often involves more point-by-point than I ever like to do, but his seem less designed to find scum and more to seem like he's inspecting.

Well, I already found scum in Sim and Concission. Perhaps Jarti too, but the third is probably someone who I think is town and is playing me well. Probably a Ythill or a Percy. Maybe even you.

---

For my previous reasons and because she hasn't posted in a while and this seems like a fruitful wagon.

What do you mean when you say it looks like a fruitful wagon? That sounds like a buzzword to round off the sentence.

---

Buddying? Coaching? Like play a certain way to please me? I don't know, but posts like this make me wary.

Join the club. I feel like a lot of people are calling me out on trivial little issues. Doesn't coaching imply that you have the be the same alignment as me, by the way? That's how I always interpreted it.

---

I consider it important to get everyone's views on important events, this is one of them - so I will state now: I am opposed to lynching Concission at this moment in time.

I like the people voting Concission. I think most are townies. I get that Concission has at best been a lurker, and at worst had some scumminess. That's fine. I myself have not found anything particularly townie-ish about Concission.

Concission seems like a "compromise" lynch. It's a lynch everyone can get behind because I don't think anyone can actually defend Concission. That's why I would vote for him, at least...because it's "okay."

I am not okay with an okay lynch at the moment. Feel like we can do better.

You know what? I just defended you a little bit, but now I kind of feel like retracting it. This post

sucks

. Your push for Jarti is going nowhere. How do you expect a lynch to go through? It's going to be a compromise between a majority of people. It's not going to be a person everyone has listed as their number one scumread; I can guarantee you that much. You just want it on record that you do not support this lynch, and this post reeks of that. I don't know if you are sided with Concission or if you know Concission is a bad lynch, but this post screams lame to me.

---

So the right general place is a case on VP, right?

No, Ythill's third point.

Say whaaaat? Where does this even come from?

VPB was addressing you and your allegations, but he still had Antitown as his vote, if I recall correctly. I'd really have to dig back into my mindset when making that comment though, because it was a long post after a long night.

Then there are some claim shenanigans and you're now saying he's town. zor's play here smells a lot like opportunism.

This is a good catch. Just another layer of suspicion in one of the more awkward moments of this game.

Could someone summarize the Concission case for me?

I'm still completely unsatisfied with her original, fraudulent push on VPB. Afterwards, when she asked me why I thought she may have been kidding, she gets fairly defensive and dodges the issue. It doesn't feel right at all, and I'm content with getting something going this game. Apparently you, and others, feel like we need more discussion. LL feels like this lynch is too much of a "compromise" for his taste. God only knows what he expects of a D1 lynch with so many strong personalities in this game.

---

This is a strange game because I do not think people look scummy so much as I think players seem slightly less Town than others.

Speak for yourself. This "You're a little townie... you're a lot townie!" crap is for the birds. Not everyone here is townie, Glados.

---

WTF. I accidentally hit the Submit button for the Preview button, continued to read and suddenly everyone was on me with ten thousand times the speed of light.

Well, I voted you 9 hours after Sim, so there's no need to blow things out of proportion. If you were holding out hope that I'd scold the wagon on you after our dialogue so far in this game, then you were sorely mistaken.

You don't put someone at L-1 saying you like the WAGON and not the LYNCH.

I like them both. Happy?

---

I am certainly more able to follow his logic, and I now more appreciate his concise commentary.

"He makes shorter posts, so he's more likely to be town."



---

I'm adding my voice to the anti-WoT choir. Please be brief. If people have questions, they can ask.

I have a question. What's WoT?

An exercise in critical thinking for you. Take the five largest bandwagons. Cross off any player who has been on three or more because that player is wagoning shamelessly. Cross off any player who has been on only one because no comparison data is available. Identify those players who have been on exactly two and look for similarities.

Sentence by sentence:

1.) Okay.
2.) An arbitrary number.
3.) Why? What difference does that make?
4.) How can you compare wagons with no flips? What are you attributing it to, then? Your reads?
5.) Another completely arbitrary number. Suggests that you are framing a set group of people to please your own interpretation.

Coming from someone that generally supports wagon analysis (after flips, mind you), this entire post is futile at best and manipulative at worst. I'm not merely suggesting this because you set the data up in such a way that I'd come back scum, but because this entire system is rigged so that only certain people are being analyzed. I also noticed how conveniently you left out the wagon on me (don't let the facts get in the way of your results, right?).

Okay, here's come more critical thinking.

Take the people who are voting AGM at his peak, cross out all the people who stay there for longer than one VC (because they are more likely to be purposeful votes). Cross off anyone not related to this vote.

AlmasterGM

:

crypto, Jarti, Simenon, Fate, RedCoyote

, Ythill,

Shadow Dancer

(L-1)

Hmmm, Ythill, points in the scum column for you.

RC has been on both of the lurker wagons but not on those of the people around to defend themselves. Points in the scum column for sure.

The fact that you'd call Concission a lurker wagon and not Antitown is so obviously motivated that I've just about lost my patience, I think. Ythill, the man replaced out, for goodness sakes. There's no honesty in this post whatsoever.

---

RedCoyote has moved further down my Town list for putting Concission at L-1 without warning.

Do you need a warning, Glados? Is there someone else you think that does?

[RedCoyote]

Another fail-vote.

I've only been blowing the Concission is suspicious horn since, let me see... my first fucking post? I don't get to check the thread 24/7, you know, so sometimes I'm not on the wagon at the "most advantageous" time. Why should that deter me? I'm not going to sit here and plan out my actions to make me look good; I'm going to try to lynch scum. Period.

[RedCoyote]

Mod

, I voted Simenon here.

Sorry, fixed.

If your vote is contained in a large wall, the VOTE tags are more likely to be spotted.

[RedCoyote]

@RC: If you like both then why don't you ask for a claim?

Because I'm not the hammer.

Look, if you people seriously believe 9 votes over 30 posts is a scum wagon, especially with questionable characters like RC, Sim and VPB in there then I don't know what to say.

Concission, do you think a majority of D1 lynches will have scum on them?

You and LL are kind of in the same boat here. Of course you're just trying to save your skin, and I get that. Probability tells us that any given majority of players (i.e. those voting to lynch a player) will have a scum in the grouping. That's why wagon analysis can be extremely effective (when analyzed fairly).

Still, rarely will the town get the "perfect" D1 lynch. A lynch where the target is scum, all the players voting them are town, and the case is solid in every town player's eyes. Anyways, my point here is that, regardless of your alignment and the players forming your wagon, it's extremely unlikely that all three scum are on your wagon. It's unlikely any posts prior to your wagon had nothing to do with other players' willingness to vote you.

---

So asking me to explain how you are being subtle this game makes no sense.

Then why bring it up at all? You completely lost me. If this game is nothing like the game you mentioned, then what difference does it make whether I act like a Cult Leader or not?

And yet most of the players in the game are Town.

Of course, I would certainly prefer to have scum reads -- that gives me purpose and direction. But I don't always get what I want. It is very magnanimous of you to volunteer, though.

Cute.

I was just making an observation more than anything. Luckily I don't have the same problems you do. I see clear cut cases of scummy behavior that I want put down, and, until you brought up that you don't think people look scummy so much, you could've fooled me. I thought you had some clear scum reads since your first post.

In any case, it looked completely artificial and unlike anything you had said prior in this game.

~

a.)

In Post 301, your List of Suspicion had Concission as the sixth scummiest player. Notably, AlmasterGM was on the Town side of your radar.
~

b.)

Nevertheless, the next real-time day you voted for AlmasterGM in Post 345. Not only does this not much up with your previous post, but it was the fifth vote on AlmasterGM. (And by the way, I also do not like your "[stop] making me look at you like a victim, damnit" line directed at LuckayLuck. It strikes me as fake.)
~

c.)

After three other players unvote AlmasterGM, you switch to the newly forming Antitown wagon in Post 429.
~

d.)

And when Antitown is replaced, you complain about it (and not subtly, I might add) in Post 451. This whole post is strange -- you take the soapbox for almost no reason, and despite saying that "Antitown was mostly a blank slate" your post certainly suggests that everybody should have a sour and bitter aftertaste of Antitown.
~

e.)

But when it turns out I am not lynchbait, you immediately switch your vote to Concession, putting her at L-1 in Post 500. Without warning. And now you claim to be "ready for a lynch."

A) If I've had to clarify this once, I've had to clarify this a hundred times. My reads are not in any way static. They are fluid and they are constantly evolving. It's short-sighted to assume otherwise, frankly. This goes for Concission, this goes for AGM, and everyone else in this game. I'm on record of propping up SD, Jarti, LL, and you on various occasions since I made that post. The same cannot be said for Concission (who has only gotten consistently worse).
B) This goes for your second point as well. I clearly told crypto, in that post, that I liked his points and was willing to vote AGM on the back of them. AGM needed the pressure, my Sim vote, as Ythill pointed out, was not having any real effect, and there was no reason for me not to switch my vote. There's really no way to address this point outside of telling you that you have no basis with which to assume my reads over the course of the game would remain the same as they are in post 301.
C) That's correct. I gave Antitown enough time, I thought. At that point he was worth pressuring, and AGM had since posted. I was on record of disliking Antitown and liking Fate and crypto. There was no reason to ignore this wagon.
D) Were you pleased with Antitown's performance, then? I wasn't. I noted it post 303 and post 310. As to me bitching, well, unlike GLaDOS (the character), I am human. I dislike replacing. Replacing out of a game is inconsiderate and shows a lack of respect to the players you're playing with, especially if you don't even bother to find a decent replacement for yourself.
E) Of course you leave out that I had voted Concission earlier in this game (though, granted, I switched in the same post, but that was how strongly I felt about my initial Concission read). Of course you leave out that I was keeping up an argument with Concission that got steadily worse (post 206, post 301, post 429). Of course you ignore the fact that I had Concission on the scum side of my scale in post 301 (though, unsurprisingly, you try to use the position relative to other players against me). So, yes, I was ready for a lynch. I'm still ready for a lynch. I will not apologize for being ready for a lynch. On Sim, or Concission, or LL, or Jarti, or possibly even Ythill or zora.

[RedCoyote]

Yeah, I keep forgetting about vote tags. I've been wanting to start using them, but I type up my posts in notepad and copy and paste them onto the website (old habit from posting on forums when IE would regularly devour my posts whenever it felt like it in the late 90's and early 00's. Anyways, another post incoming.

[RedCoyote]

I don't expect you to read my walls unless you have an issue with me. This is mostly defense oriented anyways.

Spoiler: There will be cake if you click here :right:

I am baffled as to how people are backing off of, or dissatisfied with, a Concission lynch.

Are you ready to concede the point that I haven't been earnest enough in my voting this game? I'm still eager to lynch Concission, and I have been for some time. Unless you want to join me on Sim, that is.

Otherwise I'll stubbornly hold out my vote because that's what I do when I'm feeling like a prick. Even with death looming just over my shoulder.

---

1.)

I brought up the Cult game because I originally felt I had a fair meta on your scum game, as I explained in Post 455. But when I checked back on the game, I realized that the

reasons

I caught you in that game (subtly pushing a Cult agenda) were highly unlikely to be reasons I could catch you in this game if you are scum.

May we drop the point then? I have ten actual scum game examples in my wiki just begging for you to click on if you desire a meta argument. I'll be happy to talk about any of them; I could talk about my play all day. Moreover, I actually really enjoy games where I'm scum. Town games can be okay, but unless I feel like I'm really on top of the game, I only play Mafia for the chances to be scum.

2.)

Hold it. You think my first post contained "solid scum reads"? How closely were reading it? I said very clearly that I had six Town reads, but that I was having a difficult time sorting everybody else. In fact, I said I would prefer to be voting somebody, but that I did not feel I had a solid enough grasp of the game to vote.

I have typed up three separate votes now, but I keep deleting them when I reread the player to make sure I like my vote. (The order has been: Simenon, Concission, and then Percy, for the record).

I read this as though you had three promising scum reads you were willing to follow up on. I liked that and was anxious to check them out. I was satisfied when you obliged us in your next post. Am I incorrect in this series of events? Am I incorrect to assume that these were solid scum reads? Please explain.

I fail to see how being able to better sort the players in the game after forcing myself to read the game a second time can possibly be "completely artificial."

Artificial intelligence =/= artificial posts.

It is. Claiming that people "don't so much look scummy as they do less Town" is lame. Maybe you see it as being honest, but I see it as artifical. I don't really have another word for it. It doesn't look right.

You join wagons after they are already established, and you only leave wagons when they have pretty much deflated. You are not the first on, or the first off.

Of course I do not expect players to "stick to their guns" once they have posted a list of their reads. But I do expect to clearly see why people move around on a list over the course of the game. And I certainly do not feel that you adequately explained your AlmasterGM vote; he went from the "Town" side of your list to being voted, and you did not comment on him at all in the interim, or in the post where you voted for him.

In my defense, I point directly at Sim. From my very first post I have been reminding people that Sim is my number one candidate. I've consistently laid out attack after attack on him, even in the face of no promising results from my audience. I've asked others to commit to joining with me too. I don't know what else I could've done to give that wagon momentum. You'd be remiss to label Sim as a weaker player, I think, unless I'm misinterpreting your meaning of "weaker".

If you mean weaker as in play in this game alone, you know, as an island, I'd say that's an unfair argument on it's very face. Stronger players are inherently less likely to be D1 lynch prone. VPB garnered some votes, I guess, but I've never had any real problems with his play. Ythill has gotten worse, but he's never been a real candidate here.

AGM was a pressure vote on the back of crypto's summation, and I think that much is obvious. I don't know what else exactly you want me to say about that. I was not interested in an AGM lynch, but I was interested in AGM activity because I know he was capable of more than he had produced thus far. If you want to argue the

merits

of the AGM wagon, that's a little different, but I'm assuming you're aiming more toward the actual rationale behind my vote specifically.

I've already explained why it is that I voted Concission and Antitown, and you have failed to show why these votes are unreasonable. In other words, you're going to have to back these points up as a whole, because I'm completely not seeing it at all. I really can't even give you much credit for making them.

Your complaint about Antitown being replaced feels very out of place. Players get replaced out of games all the time. I cannot think of a single game offhand where at least one player was not replaced, though I am sure some exist. And yet you took the opportunity to take the soapbox. And on the soapbox, Post 451, you basically lay into Antitown under the guise of going off on the next person who needs to be replaced.

I can probably give you a little more credit for this, because, normally, I really do try to check my emotions at the door when playing this game. However, on this particular issue, I happen to have historically been vocal about. If you'll grant me the time, take let's take a step back to November 2008. Just the first section of the post is all that's necessary (although that argument goes on until at least the next page, if not further).

Of course I've since learned that replacements are a common place thing. It does still irk me considerably, especially when I feel like I'm trying very hard and committing a lot of time and patience to reading the game. For what it's worth, your replacing in has done wonders for my Antitown read.

I have actually played in a game without any replacements. It was Hoopla's Quayside. But, anyways, that's neither here nor there.

you round off your post with "I guess at least Antitown was mostly a blank slate." Which is, again, an unexplained change from your previous list. Antitown went from being scummy to being a "blank slate"?

This is a misunderstanding. I didn't mean literally a "blank slate", and, as you can see, that comment was qualified.

What I meant to convey was that Antitown hadn't posted much content-wise. He had scummily harassed VPB when VPB asked him for content, and he had made it known that he disliked Fate after a back-and-forth that he had with him. That was about the sum total of his history in the game. So, I mean, every other opinion he may or may not have had about the town was left up to interpretation. All in all, he was

mostly

a blank slate in terms of not being on record for much of what was going on up to that point in the game.

---

I'm dissatisfied with the Conc lynch because it is terrible. I've got her at null with a slight town lean. Behaviorally, she feels like a townie who lacks the time or motivation to keep up. Her wagon is filled with lame-sauce votes and contains two of my top four suspects; meanwhile, building a competing wagon has been like pulling teeth. It feels like the dissenters are happy to let her be a deadline lynch.

No one wants to vote me because it's a bad wagon, Ythill. I've done little to deserve the shoddy treatment I've received from you. Fate has no reason to be on my wagon, your reasons are very plainly manufactured, Jarti is inactive, and Glados, although I've come to suspect that her heart is in the right place, is simply misunderstood.

You had a better shot with LL, but, you know, far be it from me to tell you how to play as scum.

---

I don't like him voting for AGM, antitown, and conc as a compromise (using his language on AGM, which since he claimed to want to vote me this whole game can probably be extended to the other two) and then his abrupt switch to me as though compromising were over for some reason.

Yeah, when I tried to compromise everyone came down on me like I was the bad guy. They tried to make it look like I never had any beef with Concission this entire game. Now why would people do something like that, I wonder?

Also, he doesn't have one controversial suspect except Ythill (me, LL, jarti and zora, with glados kind of implied).

You're an uncontroversial wagon? I'm the only person who has been regularly voting and pushing for you. Percy and VPB have thrown me a bone, but you've got a damn angel in your corner, Sim.

zora is very arguably uncontroversial. When's the last time you saw a zora wagon on the top of a VC?

---

Hypocriscy??

I've got to be honest, this is a pretty good point. I think people are just anxious to see someone on the gulliotine though. Concission, why don't you join me in voting Sim?

---

RC's ISO 15 'sentence to sentence' response to ythill reeks as well.

No, tell me why. At least give me this. Ythill won't, so why don't you engage me? That had to have been one of the most dishonest posts I have ever seen on the website. I don't want to really push out the hyperbole, but it was, by all accounts, completely constructed with one agenda in mind: to make me look bad. He crosses out every player except for me, you, Antitown, and SD. Then he concludes that everyone looks good except for me. That's not critical thinking; it's a fucking parlor trick.

I loved your Pokemon matchup though.

---

(Is this the same Jarti that was posting at the beginning of the game with no avatar?

Did I miss a replacement or something?

I think you're thinking Jerbs. Jarti had something else earlier though.

To sum up, I liked Jarti's recent post. I have been feeling better about Glados. Fate needs to be taken down a notch for his lack of performance in this game (Fate is more likely to be resigned, I think, when he's scum). We need to hear more from Percy and SD.

[

Town

]-----VPB---crypto-Glados--AGM-Percy-Jarti-SD[

∙

]-Fate-zora-LL-Ythill---Concission-----Sim---[

Scum

]

[RedCoyote]

That's a moot point. I'm clearly trying to say that it's been an issue I've had with this game for years. It's not indicative of my alignment.

Here's a more recent outburst.

Maybe instead of dodging the actual point I'm making and sticking your fingers in your ears, you'll take a breath, read over Antitown's abysmal posts, and come to your senses.

[RedCoyote]

It's just frustrating. It's pure confirmation bias. Whatever I say is "Why is scumRC saying this?" as opposed to "Why is RC saying this?"

How in the hell did you ever see me as town then, Glados?

[RedCoyote]

We'll begin

BEFORE

the game begins (metagame). Antitown has one data point of a previous game on these forums in which he is a town. This is admittedly not a lot of data, BUT his style is seen to be drastically different. His posts in that other game include:

opinions with evidence

,

boldly stated proclamations,

emotional challenges

. In this game, he does none of the above.

This is a stark contrast, especially for a game that has moved as quickly as this one has. I wouldn't have even thought these two were the same person.

Antitown called out, of all people, Fate - for

doing nothing

. I doubt a townie can come to this conclusion because Fate was quite active and stirring up the pot during the early game. This is a sort of lazy accusation that tends to come from scum.
Antitown

readily votes for VPBaltar

with no good reasoning and pushes him to wagon #1 (alongside yours truly, LuckayLuck) - of note is that Antitown was wagon #2.

Agreed. His interactions with both Fate and VPB was complete crap. You hardly have to sell me on this though. When put all together like this, I feel a little embarrassed that I was so hesitant to join the Antitown wagon earlier today.

Jarti begins early day one with an interesting phrase:

@mod: since town wins with 2 scum dead & one on the guillotine; that means if we lynch 2 scum and have a 3rd scum on guillotine the game will immediately end without us having to play out that next day while the 3rd scum is already gonna die, right?

This question is sheer madness, and how a townie can be thinking of a scenario with 2 scum dead early in game one is outrageous.

I think you're blowing this a little out of proportion, but I take your point nonetheless. I'm not particularly swayed by anything else you have here in these two posts, but your next post was quite interesting. I hadn't even realized that the two players had been effectively ignoring each other the entire game, despite Antitown being a leading wagon at one point and Jarti being a controversial figure throughout the game.

LL, why do you think Glados is focusing on your supposed contradiction as opposed to explaining why it is she has ignored Jarti this game?
Jarti, do you have anything to say in regards to any of this? About Antitown/Glados or LL as it relates to their alignments?

[RedCoyote]

#1 without re-reviewing Ythill's post looks like an "Okay, but you're wrong" when everything is behind it. When looking at his post, you're really just saying "okay, I'm reading this sentence". Completely unnecessary & devoid of substance. It's just a tacked-on qualifier. #2 is your 'an arbitrary number'; but really at that point there hadn't been any other significant bandwagons than what ythill's number got us anyway. When you add it to the list though, it frames the mindset that ythill was cherrypicking wagons. #3/#4 are legitimate questions that could have been asked directly in paragraph form without #1/#2 setting them up on a list. #5 is falling back on the arbitrary number cop-out; and the list all boils down to your point that is basically 'ythill is framing things'. In reality him showing his 'mental exercise' just showed me how he was thinking about things & shows forces him to make a stance on some players' voting habits, even if his stance is 'null' or 'no info', it can be called out if it looks like he's purposely avoiding taking a stance on someone who he should of. That is why I don't like this.

I only meant to convey my thoughts as I was reading through the "mental exercise" line by line. There was nothing sinister or snide intended by saying "Okay", I just meant like, "Okay, you're fine so far". There were other significant bandwagons though, notably the original one on me. Of course, had Ythill bothered to include that, he may have had to push his sweet spot up from 2 to 3... but then that would disqualify me from suspicion, I guess. I hope you got that implication that he was cherrypicking, because I fully intended for

that

point to come across. What difference does it make if he says "null" or "no info" if the entire thing is based off of whatever he feels like it should be? I mean, changing your vote 3 times is too excessive and, therefore, should be ignored? Huh? The lack of context is one thing, I mean, that's the idea behind VC analysis anyways. It's the omissions and the randomness that make it not only artificial but actually suspect.

---

Still, I'm having doubts about Jarti as scum here. I absolutely hate how Concission jumps at the chance to follow LL when, prior to his case against Jarti/Glados, this is the only thing I can find that she has really had to say about him as a player in this game.

[RedCoyote]

Simenon can join VP's ranks in my scum reads after this, especially since his only other post was an excessively weak vote (that he's kept despite all this useful information he seems to be saying we had) and this post just looks like mudslinging.

This mild distancing attempt from Sim was tragically ignored by a majority of the players. Many of them paid lip service to the suggestion that Sim was scummy (most forcefully by me, I'd argue, but also by zora, VPB, Percy, and Concission at times) but never acted on it. It's a shame Percy was already voting Sim, because I think anyone who reads over the game the way you've started to do would notice this out of place, disagreeable for the sake of being disagreeable type of post.

Unnecessary meta post here from Simenon.

Glados attempted to make a big deal over my documented, progressively increasing level of distaste for Antitown, but this sort of half-justification, half-paying attention, half-assed attempt at promoting the Antitown wagon by Sim was also largely ignored. He's basically saying here that Fate is probably right, so, whatever, Antitown is a good a vote as any. It sounds too much like he's undercutting his own position should he need to back away from it, which I also pointed out at the time.

So is there are reason that Ythill and Glados/Antitown never felt it prudent to pressure Sim really at all over the course of the game thus far? I don't know, but I don't like it. Not for as vocal as these two have been. Sure, for good measure, they've both mentioned his name once or twice in passing, but Ythill actively tried to talk me out of voting Sim and Glados (Antitown never mentioned him) thinks his "concise commentary and open logic" is to be lauded (yeah, I didn't get it either).

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: So is there

a

reason

[RedCoyote]

I'm content. Sim has been my top suspect for a long while, and I think this flip will help me tremendously in casting judgment on a few other players.

I'm also interested in what Concission has to say after her newfound commitment to LL.

zora was on the money about AGM though. AGM is absolutely phoning this game in.

[RedCoyote]

The only thing worse than not lynching Sim and not getting his flip tomorrow is forcing a PR to claim and then lynching Sim (or the PR).

[RedCoyote]

No one was expecting you to make it to lylo, Glados, but that doesn't mean you should've claimed at the first actual opportunity (second day, but you get my point). A Tracker death changes the situation entirely. Now what little PR power we have is best used as a statistical advantage (even moreso, I think, than if the Tracker was still alive).

I mean, wow. That's not playing the odds. I mostly agree with your numbers (the Roleblocker shouldn't factor in, mafia wouldn't know if that's successful or not), but just take it a day further. Let's suppose the scum hadn't found you last night (which is highly probable), and Sim is town (for the sake of argument). Day three we have two dead townies, a dead Tracker, and one person on the guillotine. I think you could've sweet talked your way into surviving another day. During D3 it would've been ten people alive, three as scum, and likely two PRs. I mean, that would've just been better odds at hitting scum because that's effectively a 3 in 8 shot as opposed to a 3 in 10 shot that you just gave us.

Well, whatever. What's done is done. LL, how does the claim change your predictions on the game?

I still feel pretty comfortable with Sim getting decapitated (although the Mod's flavor left me feeling pretty crappy, heh). The fact of the matter is, I think Sim was playing some WIFOM trick with his claim, and I can't wait for the opportunity to rub it in Glados' face, frankly.

Right now I'll tenatively

vote: Fate

. Glados is right about one thing. Someone had to have been either really lucky or really good at reading for PRs. Fate makes a big show about how he doesn't read anything thoroughly and works heavily on his intuition, but I know for a fact that this cat is clever. I think he saw the very thing Glados mentioned about Ythill. There are a couple of other people I think may have picked up on it as well, but I think they're much more townie sounding than Fate has been.

[RedCoyote]

At this moment, I don't think we should have our redemned soul claim.

Agreed. At least hold out for one more day.

---

If Simenon doesn't flip scum, hats will be eaten.

Is this link broken? What am I supposed to be seeing here?

Useful?

You tell me. This is your catchup post. Is it?

---

I have also brought some humble cake for those interested.

Really? No foolin'? I'll take a slice.

---

that is correct, I don't see you backing off of bussing a scumbuddy like that upon a vanilla townie claim

This is a good point. crypto, is this the angle you're coming at VPB with? I hadn't really considered this, although I did seriously have a problem with VPB backing off of Sim at the time.

---

NO THIS IS NOT OMGUS. IF HE HAD VOTED ME FOR ANY DECENT FRICKIN REASON AKA:
1. Fate isnt raging, lolmeta
2. Fate isnt contributing, flying lowlowlow
3. Fate killed Ythill cuz he likes to lead townz.

>implying these aren't all true

---

This conclusion doesn't really make sense. It's like, "Fate is good at mafia, so he must have picked up on it." It could have just as easily been zoraster, VPB, or yourself.

Do you think zoraster and VPB are town? Why are they more town than Fate?

No way, I'm too clueless to pick up on something like that.

Translation: I guess I can't be scum after all.

No, but, like all of my other moves in this game, there's been a documented progression in my dislike towards Fate's lackluster play this game. For some reason people have trouble seeing this and start getting their panties in a wad over the fact that I might vote someone who isn't Sim.

If you're asking me about zora and VPB, well, I've only had one real issue with zora the whole game. He could be ducking the game a bit, but we'll see how that turns out. VPB, similarly, has been a fairly solid town read for me other than one really odd moment (yesterday's Sim wagon).

To answer you question though, I wouldn't be very upset to see VPB or zora in the restraints over this logic (Ythill's kill), but in comparison to Fate? I'll take Fate any time.

---

rc same question

Oh, absolutely. Without reservation. In light of the Sim and Ythill flips, I was clearly going in the wrong direction with my suspicions. Fate has been skating by without anyone so much as giving him a second look, and VPB, kind of like Sim, has been getting people to talk of him as scum without anyone actually showing the balls to move a vote or two on him.

[RedCoyote]

I'm glad you so shamelessy used FATE-PROVIDED points against me as if it were original content.

Me too!

[RedCoyote]

No, I was just teasing you. What do you want to know now? You really are scum for those reasons. Do you really think I voted you out of the blue? I think you know you had it coming. I haven't liked you as town since Antitown was still here, and now with Glados' claim, I'm about ready to put my money where my mouth is.

[RedCoyote]

Whoever had zoraster as a #1 town read (above me even!?) was smokin something last page.

That was me, player. What are you going to do about it?

He's the only one with enough smarts to call out both Sim and SD. Oh, and he did it on his first post. What's your excuse?

Here Fate tries to push me over giving a thumbs up to zora, and I fire back asking why Sim and SD are being ignored by Fate. By the way, he never responded.

JAgm doesn't need to claim, kjust post

Same to you.

Like how Fate conveniently left this out? Even though I was making it clear that his activity levels were getting significantly worse at this point? This was

after

Antitown had replaced out. By the way, he never responded.

Since he never responded to me, since his activity has been a joke, guess what I did?

Fate needs to be taken down a notch for his lack of performance in this game (Fate is more likely to be resigned, I think, when he's scum).

So don't let Fate twist the context around here, there's a clear progression of dislike. I've said that Fate is townie sounding, I don't deny that. That was before Antitown was replaced though. Do I really need to tell everyone that since Glados has been here Fate has absolutely shutdown? Throwing his votes around whenever he thought he could get a lynch to go through (regardless of who it was) and placing self-limitations on the number of sentences he can make? So when Fate says he isn't raging, that much is obvious (until now, but even still I touched on that in my post 593), when he says he isn't contributing, say hello to my post 429, and when he says Fate killed Ythill, that was the entire damn theory behind making the move to vote him! So everything Fate said in his little summary:

NO THIS IS NOT OMGUS. IF HE HAD VOTED ME FOR ANY DECENT FRICKIN REASON AKA:
1. Fate isnt raging, lolmeta
2. Fate isnt contributing, flying lowlowlow
3. Fate killed Ythill cuz he likes to lead town

I've touched on all of those things before, as I've just proven to you.

Fate is trying to twist it around and show a bunch of early posts I made where I said that I had town vibes from Fate. That's all true. I had good vibes of him when he was out to get Antitown, and I think most of us did. I do not have those same town vibes now, and I haven't for some time. Fate's entire post 887 is moot because I acknowledged before hand that I hadn't liked Fate as town

since Antitown left the game

.

So Fate is stepping up a little bit, it's just a shame that he's doing so dishonestly and manipulatively to try and frame me rather than show the honest truth. Look, don't take my word for it or Fate's word for it. Go back through my posts for yourself. Set aside a couple of minutes and look at where I've addressed Fate. They're all relatively short (because he hasn't said anything of importance since Antitown left), and it's easy to see how my attitude has changed over the course of the game. Ythill and Sim's flips coupled with Glados' claim have just precipitated my need to make a stronger move.

Don't let Fate bully his way through this game. He needs to be held accountable for his actions.

[RedCoyote]

I'm actually starting to sympathize with Concission a little bit. Jarti's last vote for instance (

Mod

, I think your last vote count is off in this regard), where the hell did that come from? Jarti, what happened to calling out VPB? Frankly, I'm starting to really warm up to that idea. VPB has been riding Concission for sometime, and you're on record of putting VPB on notice for this. I mean, are you giving up on VPB or do you think there's some sort of collusion between him and Concission?

SD and VV need to pick it up. There's a lurking scum between them for sure. SD isn't lurking so much as he is playing under the radar, I guess. VV's catchup post was okay but he's since disappeared.

I'm having trouble pinning down town reads in this game now (with the exception of Glados). Everyone is kind of dropping the ball in different ways. AGM and zora have been going at each other basically since zora got here, so that's nothing new. I lean toward AGM as having the weaker position in general; he's way too self-focused. This entire game he's had this defensive streak in him it seems like. Everytime someone votes him he gets flustered and ramps up the activity, but otherwise I can't tell what he's going to do next.

I'm really disappointed at the disinterest in either a VPB or Fate wagon, it seemed like there was a lot of excitement about that yesterday (real time, not D1), but here we are and Concission is the only real vote getter.

If I had to pick my favorite townie reads right now, it'd probably be crypto, Jarti, and zora, and all three of them are voting different people.

I also just realized we're in a unique position here. There were five people who weren't on Sim's wagon yesterday, one of them is dead and another is Glados.

@Everyone

: Who is scum between VPB, AGM, and SD?

Thank you for pointing out the vote count error. It has been fixed. -mod

[RedCoyote]

There a me sized hole in your post there RC, you ready to get lynched yet?

Yo, Fatesy, did you notice the big ol' part here?

I'm really disappointed at the disinterest in either a VPB or Fate wagon

There's a lot of ways to go here, but with you and VPB, I really want to see a flip from one of you, I think. AGM might be acceptable as well.

---

why do you start your post pointing out the huge discrepancy in thought continuity from Jarti and then call her one of your favorite town reads?

I was actually considering running with this, but I went back and saw that Jarti has never been a big fan of Concission. Had that not been the case, I probably would've went off on her. I'll give her a chance to explain what she's trying to do.

---

This waggon definitely needs more

vote RC

.

This is getting old fast. You called me out once for some so-called buddying and have been riding that wave ever since. It would be nice if, like Glados, you were willing to engage me every once and a while. I have no problem with someone voting me as long as they're willing to stay relevant and up-to-date. Your vote has been lazy and predictable. I mean, you don't even mention anything I've said today. When was the last time you quoted me or asked me something?

I also like how everyone ignored my question. We've most likely got a scum between three people in VPB, AGM, and SD. Which one is it? If I had to vote right this second I'd probably choose VPB, but it would be nice to know if a VPB lynch is feasible or if I'm just wishing on the stars. AGM and SD are both so-so enough that I'd settle for them, I guess. A number of people are readily ignoring the flips though (notably Fate, VPB, and SD). VPB went so far as to imply the flips meant nothing to him and he wants to continue on the same path he's been on since the second page of the game.

[RedCoyote]

Well, you still do (have a confirmation bias), so why would I waste time arguing with you? The prod speaks for itself. You've done little this day outside of your shot. So you're just floating along rather than actually leading the town like you should be. That said, SD isn't much better. Of course if the roles were reversed it would be a completely different story.

Of course we need to focus outside of the Sim wagon. VPB is the only one who thinks the Sim wagon wasn't a good wagon, I think everyone else agrees it was an acceptable lynch (even if not their priority pick). Lynching from a pool of 3 is better than lynching from a pool of 8, unless you're going to sit here and argue that all scum were on the Sim wagon.

[RedCoyote]

Look, you're the one who's popping in to say, effectively, "Meh, keeping the vote I've had since yesterday, nothing has changed". I find it hard to believe that I'm the only person worth commenting on since Sim's flip, but we'll set that aside. I'm not calling you lazy, but I will call you out for taking me out of context. If you want to step up and say that SD has had as much to say about me as you have, then those are your words, not mine. I strongly beg to differ, and can point to numerous examples of you addressing me and SD, well,

not

.

Without a scumflip, rereading isn't as beneficial as you make it seem. I mean, rereading is always important, everyone should always do it, yadda yadda yadda, but don't go off on some elitist rant because no one is keeping up with your standards of play. I've reread enough (thank you very much) to know where I want to go, and I would hope everyone else is keeping their offense fresh and honest (unlike Fate, VPB, and possibly SD).

First, I said Simenon was Town.

There's a difference between this and saying he's a bad lynch, especially on D1. You don't know Sim's alignment until you know it. I recall you being very back and forth on Sim, but I'll go back and see if you were, as you claim, as insistent as VPB was.

I do not think it is in any way guaranteed that one of the scum was off the Simenon lynch.

You either think it or you don't. There are no guarantees. There's no reason to continue to ham up your attacks against me. I don't guarantee anyone will flip anything.

The "pool" of eligible candidates on the Simenon lynch is 7, since Ythill has died. Second, since you were on the wagon, you can remove yourself for the purposes of your own scumhunting, leaving a pool of 6.

You're right about Ythill. I was posting too fast. However I made it a point not to include myself when I'm talking about your perspective.

Limiting the scope of suspects is not really helpful to Town, especially if this limitation could easily put the Town in an impossible situation. What if all three unconfirmed players off the Simenon wagon are Town?

What if they're all scum together? What if there are no scum? What if the moon was blue? I'm going with probability here. Probability is more reliable than whatever scumhunting I can do. I know you don't like thinking about odds and chances (in general I don't like relying on it much either, but I come from an inherently more statistical approach to Mafia given that I cut my teeth on EpicMafia), but there's a real advantage to using it as one tool among many in an attempt to locate scum.

And I just realized that my vote count (and hitogoroshi's, which I based mine off of) is completely missing VP Baltar, who should have been listed as voting Concission.

Oh, interesting. I must've had crypto mixed up with VPB.

In that case, it is trivial to lynch off of Sim at this point. Let's stay on the Sim wagon then.

[RedCoyote]

Why would a zora wagon pop up... when he went V/LA? Seems like this could've been something addressed earlier since nothing has really changed with him in a while.

[RedCoyote]

Mod

, did VV's vote count?

SD, why don't you try reading the damn thread before you do something like that?

[RedCoyote]

Unvote

;

Vote: Shadow Dancer

That

was scum jumping on the wagon, btw. Unlike my Concission vote yesterday.

[RedCoyote]

I saw what I saw. I saw SD, who, up until that point, had been very precise about his language and his votes (you've basically just admitted to such in the last post here), absolutely throw all that away in a careless "L-1" vote, which was effectively a hammer by anyone taking two looks at the game. Hell, Jarti just did my work for me. You've made all these very careful votes in this game, more than anyone else, putting players at L-1 after supposedly counting over the previous votes and making sure that your vote wouldn't cause harm.

Now some people don't have the presence of mind to look over the game before making a move like that. They might be prone to making more flighty positions and let their emotions carry them a little more than any given person. I do not get that sense from you. I think that vote was purposeful and measured, just like all of your other votes in the past, with an intent on lynching AGM coyly and acting like you didn't know VV had already voted (unproperly, unbeknownst to all of us at the time).

The scumteam is SD, VPB, and Fate. Game over. gg all. First round's on me.

[RedCoyote]

I'll hammer. Any objections?

No.

---

But, yeah, people ignore me for some reason ;..(

Ignoring what? I don't think you ever responded to my allegations. Are you going to claim?

---

Here is something I'd like you to answer AGM, why is SD scum? You haven't said really much of anything about him all game, and especially not any kind of scum read lately.

This is a good point. Are you just piggybacking on our suspicions or do you have something of your own, AGM?

---

Okay, I'm actually kind of falling asleep right now. I haven't gotten to anything useful yet as far as votes are concerned....maybe after a nap? If you haven't actually read what's in the spoiler yet, you really don't have to. It turns out I probably could have started around where I left off and not missed anything.

How about you actually cast a vote instead of all this IIoA? I mean, I know you are voting Concission, but, it's like, is there anything new here that you are recapping for me? This is all stuff I've read before because, you know, I'm in this game. Where's the analysis? What am I supposed to be seeing here? Concission's wagon deflated because Concission's not such a great lynch anymore.

I actually think the SD wagon might be primarily town-driven, just thinking about how it formed, but that just makes the formation of the AGM wagon even more questionable, if half the players on it didn't really care so much about it.

Name names. Don't be scared.

Not sure what this points to about Concission, but I would say that anyone with a town read on Jarti should had better have a pretty damned good reason.

Do you think Jarti was bussing Concission then? It's possible. I mean, I can see it, but that's not what I'd bet on now. Jarti has consistently been unafraid to lay into anyone. He had a rocky start mostly due to his activity and unexplained positions, but he's since been pretty straightforward and on top of things. I'm still not sure exactly what's going on in his head in regards to how he sees the game, but I like his style and I think he's town atm.

Fate has been completely in his own world the entire day to the extent that I'm not even sure he realizes half the players exist.

He's been erratic and really unfocused ever since Glados came in. I can absolutely tell this is not Fate as town. He's unsure of himself, not necessarily because he is scum (he can handle that), but possibly because one of his partners is causing him stress. Maybe SD, but I don't know about that. It could be someone like an AGM though.

I see the scumteams like this right now: SD, Fate, and VPB; SD, Fate, and AGM; SD, VPB, and AGM; or Fate, VPB, and AGM. There's some grouping going on in these four players. If there aren't two scum in that group, I would be mighty surprised, I'll tell you what. I'm a believer in not counting my chickens before they hatch, so I don't think I'm good enough to have the entire scumgroup nailed down, especially without a flip. It's likely the third scum is someone I think is town.

interesting though that he decides to switch off of a wagon on one player he called scummy to a wagon on another player he called scummy that had fewer votes

Might want to look deeper into this.

ummm...can we just pretend I was high when I made this post and move on?

Well, you're on record as not particularly caring for Jarti, so no harm no foul here I don't think.

[RedCoyote]

Ugh, VPB, I almost uniformly hate it when people do that. Do you really have a problem with seeing SD as scum here? Is there some niggling doubt in the back of your mind that you can give us? I mean, putting your AGM or Concission suspicions aside, do you see SD as a potential buddy of either of them?

I had SD almost in completely neutral territory (sort of townie D1 and sort of scummy D2), but his vote was just so very fake.

I mean, I'm willing to give you that AGM is no prize in my eyes this game. I want to know from you if you think there is a real, serious reason we should forgo an SD lynch this time.

[RedCoyote]

SD is absolutely ducking this thread. I do not think AGM is the way we should be going with this lynch.

Concission, you need to cast a vote.

[RedCoyote]

Jarti, why do you keep changing your avatar?

[RedCoyote]

When I go back over the game it always throws me off, so it's related to my game.

[RedCoyote]

I was just curious, you seem to do it every other day.

Hm, I'm bored. I need to log off. I'm just sitting here at work with nothing to do. I agree with your post though.

[RedCoyote]

THE OBSESSION OF YOU PEOPLE WITH REFUSING TO JUST BUCKLE DOWN AND STICK WITH ONE LYNCHEE IS INFURIATING. HAVE SOME FUCKING BALLS, JESUS CHRIST.

AGM is indiscriminately rabid and SD is Go-Go Gadget Lurkatron-to-Night.

Here is what happens.

1. AGM goes back to L-1.
2. Everyone checks in and states a preference (or lack thereof) between AGM and SD.
3. We lynch accordingly.

If you twats continue to sit with your thumbs up your asses and somehow manage to fail to state a preference, then we lynch AGM.

Unvote. Vote: VP Baltar.

Unvote. Vote: Concission.

Unvote. Vote: AlmasterGM.

Unvote. Vote: zoraster.

Unvote. Vote: Shadow Dancer.

Unvote. Vote: AlmasterGM.

The last four are especially hilarious.

I can't believe someone who posts stuff like this is going to be lynched over SD today. This is good posting. Someone needs to be a hero and get off his wagon for SD. crypto has been getting a ridiculous amount of passes by everyone (myself included) and I want to put a fire under him tomorrow.

---

I wish you weren't scum, Fate. Because, if I didn't know any better, post 1151 is so townie it hurts.

Still waiting on Concission and VV. Glados would, theoretically, be a good person to hear from before we finish this, but his/her reads are so off that it's hard for me to pretend like I'll value them.

[RedCoyote]

As can been seen over the course of the game, I've been very back and forth with crypto. AGM does bring up a good point though; the man has been extremely opportunistic for better or for worse.

To answer your question more precisely though, I'm thoroughly convinced there are two scum in the group of you, Fate, AGM, and SD. When you add crypto to the mix, that could be a perfect third. AGM isn't really a bad lynch, but SD is so much more clear cut in my eyes. It frustrates me that I can't really get anyone to go with me on that.

Am I whistling dixie? Do you think this is just AGM grasping at straws with his last scummy breath or do you think there's something to the idea? I know you've got, as you admitted, somewhat of a position of bias (as do I as one of the, if not the main, proponent of lynching SD), but, as I asked earlier, do you have any niggling doubts about AGM? Are you prepared to move on?

To preemptively answer a possible retort: I do not have any doubts about my SD position.

[RedCoyote]

I'm scum with you, VPB, SD, AGM, and now crypto. Anyone else you want to add?

[RedCoyote]

Deadline is on March 12th, 2011, at 2:00 PM central time.

Despite what you may say, Glados, lynches based on majorities are decisive and force the scum to take real positions on the game. Do not underestimate the importance of finishing this off.

A Fate lynch, although preferable to even SD in my eyes, is unattainable in 34 hours, I think. Me, Glados, AGM, and LL, okay, that's four votes, but I don't see where we'd get the remaining three from. SD can be done, and is better than AGM, Glados. I ask that you use your vote toward something productive while Fate flails and HURR DURR's his way to a lynch tomorrow. Your reads, while well intentioned, are not going to be heeded. They're simply too misguided or suffer from being too little too late.

[RedCoyote]

Well, the deadline is tomorrow, hon. You not having a vote doesn't look super great.

You'd still prefer VPB the most, right?

[RedCoyote]

But as long as you make it by the deadline that should be fine.

[RedCoyote]

Good thing whoever has the most votes FIRST gets lynched.

BUH BYE AGM

I'm tempted to post a reaction image of my ecstatic face when Concission and Glados turn around and hammer your buddy SD.

[RedCoyote]

RC - you think SD is scum still?

Well, I wasn't surprised to see Concission vote SD over AGM. She had made it clear that she was likely going to do that. VV's heart seems like it was in the right place when he went after Fate yesterday. He was the decisive vote here, so we'll see what happens. I've got a townread on him that will definitely be dependent to some degree on how SD flips. All in all though, I think they are both townies. The scum had already cast their votes prior to these two, I think.

All that doesn't answer your question though. The short answer is yes, I see no reason for me to change my mind on SD.

Vote: Fate

I'd like to see SD's "Sim-like" post as well.

[RedCoyote]

Wow, can you say last ditch effort?

I guarantee you I didn't just get three honest votes in the last four posts. Fate's partner has just confirmed himself to be Jarti, LL, or VPB.

I've already addressed every point Fate's brought up before, this is all old stuff. I mean, if it's necessary, we'll go wall-to-wall again, but it's clear the scum are now trying for any lynch they think they'll be able to get. I've become, having put myself out there consistently each day in this game, the "easy" mislynch.

Scum QT

SD: So what are we going to do? Glados singled you out, Fate...
Fate: And RC, remember. Here's what we do. Get the lynch on RC. We're going to have to push this one hard, but if we get it we still have a shot in this game.
Jarti/VPB/LL: And?
Fate: RC won't flip yet, we can probably still connect AGM to RC.
Jarti/VPB/LL: I see, then it will be mylo.
SD: Good idea, Fate. That's probably our best shot.

If SD doesn't flip scum, then it would be a different makeup... but there's obviously a connection between Fate and one of these players. It's especially weird that LL and Jarti voted me out of the blue, having not really had anything negative to say about me (hell, neither has VPB, really, but it's no secret that VPB and Fate are attached at the hip at this point). This was concocted. I'd stake a pretty penny on that.

[RedCoyote]

VV, as the only probtownie voting me, may I ask why you're so casually sheeping GlaDoS lol reads?

You're one to talk.

And if you ARE, then you agree that a RC scum flip would be damning for me, so lynch RC with me first.

So... you're voting me because you think I'm scum. But if I'm scum that means it's more likely that you're scum.

Even his SD vote is scummy as fuck! What townie says "UNLIKE THE WAY I BANDWAGONNED >_> <_<"

Because my vote caused a shitstorm D1 for no reason. I was very clear in my dislike of Concission throughout the entire game. Then, out of the blue, people start getting uppity as though I had never mentioned Concission before. I had. Go back and look. I did it multiple times in multiple posts.

SD's vote was completely different. He was trying to pull a quicklynch off, which is completely unlike all of his prior play in this game. As, I believe, Jarti pointed out, SD, prior to this vote, was very careful about his vote and making sure it didn't do anything rash. After his vote on AGM he acted as though he didn't know it was a hammer. That was completely unlike him and how I knew that SD was scum.

HERE IT IS! Boy talk about a read that dropped off the face of the Earth.

WOW WHO KNEW ISOING SCUM WOULD NET FINDING... so MANY DAMN SCUMMY THINGS?

Except for the fact that, like what I just said above, one can read me in ISO and pull out multiple things over the course of the game that I've said about Concission. This isn't rocket science. You did this same nonsense yesterday and you're doing it again today. You cherrypick a couple of statements and paint this huge picture around it, fists pounding on the chalkboard, screaming until someone does what you say. This is the Antitown argument all over again. How many times did I rail against Concission before voting for him? Not once, not twice, not thrice, but four times. Oh, and by the way, I have even voted Concission before.

Oh, look, and here's AGM making the same argument that Fate just made.

So what does this all mean? It means that I was actually on record disliking Concission before I voted him. Does all this sound familiar to you guys? It should, because it's the same argument I've had with Glados and Fate before twice now since the end of D1. Somehow it keeps gaining traction as though it is something new. The point was either that my Antihero vote came out of nowhere or my Concission vote came out of nowhere. Neither of these are true. I've got to sit here and keep linking the same tired old posts instead of us doing something proactive like lynching Fate.

RC isn't so newbtown sa to think the the one who started the wagon on town is scum, but that the JUMPERS (like RC himself) are the REAL scumbags on town wagons.

Because you started the Antitown wagon that means your town? That makes no sense. Antitown (Glados) flipped town. I resisted the Antitown wagon for sometime. I really preferred Sim; I preferred Sim the entire day. You were the main proponent on Antihero. When Glados joined the game you decided to let off the gas and let the other players argue amongst themselves until you could throw your weight behind a mislynch.

So he finally gets the lynch derailed on AGM, even though it was derailed by ...oh wait.

FUCKING ME

You're being a complete hypocrite. If AGM is scum, why did you "derail" his wagon in favor of SD? Why are you not being held accountable for this flip flopping? This argument goes both ways. I'm not the one pretending like I already know what SD will flip. I think SD will flip scum; you claim that you know he won't.

WHAT WORLD IN FUCKING HELL IS RC IN? In some fantasy land where SCUMFATE switches from AGM to BUS SD? I'll tell yo uwhere he is, he's in the LADN WHERE HE PIGGY BACKS FATETOWN WHEN IT GETS A LYNCH OFF HIS BUDDY AGM.

It's a fantasyland to think that Fate would bus a scumpartner?



Oh, that's a good one, Fatey. Ah, tell me some more later when you're on the guillotine.

Lest we forget, the entire first day of this game you basically sat out. After your plot to get Antitown mislynched fell by the wayside, you basically sat around with your dick in your hand while the rest of us were scumhunting. You waited until you got the opportune mislynch and you voted me! But, wait, it wasn't my time yet... oh, here's another mislynch, Simenon! Awesome.

You were sitting pretty N1 into D2 until Glados pointed out that Ythill was a bit easy to read D1. I wonder who may have picked up on Ythill? VPB? Possibly, but I had a town read on him at the time. AGM? Possibly, but he had to have been playing pretty low under the radar. He genuinely didn't strike me as though he was very much into the game. I feel like I have a pretty good read on him. Fate? Now that's the ticket. You were ready to cruise control through the rest of the game until, uh oh, I called you out by putting two and two together. Good ol' fashioned logical work.

So now, in your position, Me and AGM have to flip scum and SD has to flip town for all of your BS to float. I make no such claims. You're scummy on your own. SD fits, but is not necessary. As you said yourself, you voted him. Your connections are with VPB and possibly LL/Jarti. Hell, this could be a full blown role reversal situation with you and AGM for all I know, but I'm not betting on that one.

was similar to his Vote on Concission D1

You're off your rocker. I said plainly that it was

unlike

my vote entirely. That's the reason I voted him, Fate.

"FATES BUDDY IS ONE OF THREE PEOPLE!" Thats weak and bullshit scumhunting.

All three scum in a group of five = pretty damn on top of it. All of the scum are in the Fate/VPB/SD/LL/Jarti camp right now.

[RedCoyote]

Been a little busy with Spring Break stuff, but I'll hopefully post later tonight.

[RedCoyote]

The PROBLEM IS I actually don't like zoraster's play. But I feel pretty strongly about that scum QT above. THINKING.

I was with you until I read this. This made me cringe a little bit. Yeah, sure, zora hasn't been around, but this completely undercuts everything you just said above it.

---

I have no idea where I'd put my vote right now barring a CC to zoraster.

Wow, what a cop out. Get out of my game, crypto.

---

Scumbuddy theory be damned, his interaction with that AGM wagon was STILL WEIRD AS FUCK.

I don't know, Fate. I've been holding onto two pieces of information for dear life here.

1) Someone killed Ythill specifically. Someone on the scum team is a very capable player, much better (as town, at least), than I am. This immediately points to you, and this immediately points to VPB. I know both of you are good bets at gauging something like that.

2) Your play is erratic (and not in the normal Fate sense). It's not as simple as the lack of CAPS. Anyone worth anything can use CAPS as scum. You've been a rollercoaster of activity, and it's proportional to Antihero replacing out. There's just this whole scheme that looks like it is beautifully playing out for you.

---

wait, the lynched can actually vote?

meh.

anyhow...zoraster point stands

---

This is VPB's 2nd time making a blatant attempt to act like he doesn't know the set-up. First his misinterpretation of how the vig shot would be done. And now his seemingly being unaware that the on-guillotine can post, despite simenon's posting on d2 and sd saying he'd post toDay. I don't buy it, looks like a gimmick to gain town cred by seeming unaware of the surroundings. Calling out ViVi for being 'scums who can't read the thread' when he himself seemingly never saw simenon's post-guillotine posts.

Wow, when Jarti actually gives the game his attention we get good stuff out of him like this.

However what I don't get is all the BS you gave us earlier today. It's like, I don't know if you are coming or going. Are you faking it now or were you faking it earlier? Because, it's like this, you can't go, in one post, RC is scum, then the next post, RC, want to join me in a Fate lynch?, then the next post, RC is scum, then the next post, VPB is scum. That doesn't work. What is your game, Jarti?

---

This game is seriously making me pissed because everybody and their brother is so apathetic about the game state.

Town apathy is a terrible thing and pretty much every game I've ever played that has gone this way, I've lost. I know I'm not playing at my best either, so I guess I can't bitch too much, but I do feel like I've been trying to point out relevant things all game (such as wagons that repeatedly stall at L-1) and almost no one is listening to me.

Please. If ever I've heard a scripted post. Save it for The Road to Rome.

---

VP is as town as it gets, if here we SCUMPLOTTING VP he'd have all this shit figured out.

You're delusional. The only obvious townies (aside from zora) here are VV and Concission.

---

I don't consider this game one of town apathy, a lot of players have very strong opinions.
It turns out that a lot of players have very differing strong opinions, hence a difficulty to gain consensus.

He's trying to play the town. "All this town apathy is going to lose it for us! I know I'm not the best, but gee whiz, guys!"

I don't know, LL, how you could possibly see me, Fate, and VPB as all part of the same town.

Unvote

;

vote: VP Baltar

[RedCoyote]

The writing is on the wall, VPB.

You spent the better the better part of D1 tunneling Concission (although, granted, at the time this was more of a problem I had with Concission, but I have since done almost a 180 on what I think of you and him).

You tried to buy creditability at the last minute during the Sim lynch.

Ythill was killed N1 (I don't care how many times people try and dissuade me from this argument; I'm firmly convinced there was more to this kill than sheer dumb luck).

Your relationship with Fate has been unorthodox and untownielike (especially non-VPB townielike if you want to get meta with this argument, but he's the only player I have yet to see you be critical of to any degree despite consistently labeling him as "neutral" and "meh" up until your recent, forced love affair antics).

Your unabashed, ever-present fencesitting in arguably the most critical decision we've had in this game so far.

You essentially forced the RS to claim today with your casual threats (of course this isn't entirely your fault as a lot of people we're on that wagon, including, likely, the scum Rolecop. That doesn't mean you weren't the most fundamental piece however with your vague threat of an impending hammer).

As Jarti just brought up and I now confirmed, this is your second time falling victim to fundamental misunderstandings of a fairly straightforward setup. The first time could easily be written off as an honest mistake, but this second attempt at casting suspicion on VV is completely awkward and wholly convoluted. Even if SD couldn't vote, I still don't understand the implication at all.

Your recent, fake "let's get it together, town!" pep post.

Either you or Fate need to go. It's no longer acceptable to leave you both around. In a perfect world, I'd want you gone now, I'd want SD to flip scum like I predict he will, and I'd want Fate gone the next day. It may not be all three of you, but if it's not two I would be extremely surprised.

---

I have some things I'd like to point out, but I want to see what other people think before I provide any potential point of easy agreement. I want to hear from AGM, Luck, VV, and RC first.

With the criteria you laid out, I'd say it makes Concission look pretty good. I just looked at his iso though (I don't know if that's cheating or not).

[RedCoyote]

Is it so much to ask, VPB, for you to simply fall to your knees and marvel at how perceptive I am? Let's see what you got here.

[RedCoyote]

I kind of want to, but with SD's continued thread dodging I'm starting to think he was scum.

In other words, "once SD flips scum, we're going to need to act like we were actually debating this the whole time as opposed to running with the idea that SD was obvious town like we had been doing this entire day".

I find his entire case of how I am scum masterminding this game entirely laughable and horribly forced in pretty much every point he's making, so....

Because you expect that the scum are lurking their way through?

I guess that's why you're voting me then.

Why is it that "either fate or

need to go"? False dilemma much?

What false dilemma? I think you're both scum. I'll take either of you. I thought I made that pretty clear.

What happens if one of us flips town? You think the other needs to go then?

What if it rains bananas? You deal with it.

I don't happen to think that. I've been over and over the game, and I've made my conclusions. I'm sorry you don't agree with them, but I don't expect you to. I'm really sorry you've got some sort of blind devotion to Fate, because I think it's completely fabricated, and I'm willing to put my head out there (which is pretty much par for this game) to make my case.

God knows if I didn't start kicking this game into gear we'd be suffering through the same, "lol letz get that lurker zora...", "LL rubs me the wrong way", or "RC is being too cheeky... he's got to go" crap all game.

Fate and I are both obvious fucking town for the realz.

And I'm obvious fucking town for the realz. Your point?

I find it quite silly you don't have a town read on at least one of us, if not both.

Why would I? Both of you have been playing this game like SD has already flipped. Fate especially. Hopefully the town has enough balls to take your fake "everyone who doesn't have a townread on me and Fate is scum" implication for the BS that it is.

---

If SD is scum* you think RC is town.

I think he'd bus. I mean I can understand him being wary of you buddying me..but calling it scumONScum and wanting us mkslynched back to BACK?

WHAT WORLD IN FUCKING HELL IS RC IN? In some fantasy land where SCUMFATE switches from AGM to BUS SD?

I love these little contradictions. So overly eager to get me lynched that he has to doubletalk his way there.

When I imply that Fate bussed his buddy SD, Fate goes insane over how I'm in some "fantasy land" and no scum would ever bus SD over an AGM vote. But, oh, now that VPB and Fate are starting to slowly and purposefully warm up to the idea that SD "might" flip scum, all of a sudden I'm scum for lynching him. Wonderful.

His craptastic argument agaisnt me is "rollawlcoaster of activity since antihero replaced out" theFUCKK DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING?

You changed strategies mid-game. You were kind of forced to. If I hadn't have voted you, if Glados hadn't have shown support for that vote, if AGM and VV hadn't have shown support for that vote, you'd still be twiddling your thumbs jumping on the easiest townlynch possible.

I'm pointing the town to your up and down activity as evidence of that fact.

Does he call CRYPTO out for wavering motivations?

I've given you both (you and VPB) opportunities to prove to me that you are town. You insist on fighting me the entire way. So much so that I don't really think either of you are. If I'm wrong, then, of course, crypto is still very much a potential scum, just like the others.

such as realizing there's no way our buddying is scum+scum

Love this.

"We're too buddy-buddy to be buddies"

Maybe I'll just buddy up to everyone who isn't named VPB and Fate, that way I can't be scum with anyone, right? Get out of here with that nonsense. There has been a progression. I can point to multiple posts from VPB where he's half-assed holding you at arm's length as some sort of lame distancing attempt just as easily as I can notice your forced little love affair antics right now.

---

all right, so sorry about my absence guys. I got engaged over the weekend and that's been a distraction and a time sink. Reading the thread now so I don't sound totally idiotic when I make my post today.

Congrats, zora.

I feel pretty good about my position. Fate is squirming (as usual for the second half of this game), and VPB is putting on his "Hmmm, RC might be town, but I'll vote him anyways" schtick to save face for when I flip town.

[RedCoyote]

at least if you thought one of Fate and I were town there would have been some town motivation to your actions (however stupid those were). The fact that you're calling us both scum really makes laugh at how bad of a scum game you're playing here though. you wouldn't catch me buddying someone that hard and you most certainly wouldn't see Fate doing it.

You don't respond to any of my arguments, and, instead, prefer to try and WIFOM your way out of the situation. VPB, do you honestly think you'd convince me, or anyone, with an argument like, "I wouldn't act this way as scum"? I've heard enough. Just stop. Your desperation is just making you sound condescending now.

Something needs to be said here, because you're acting very short-sighted in your rebuttals, regardless of your alignment. Read my comment below.

---

I call bullshit on all this "well if X is scum then Y must be town" thing. I don't mean it's totally irrelevant, but I don't think it should be the controlling factor in our decisions.

Thank you. This is the most sane thing I've heard from someone other than me. VPB and Fate are not confirmed squat. Anyone can say, "let's be bros", including two scum. Period.

Newsflash: Mafia is fluid. It seems like I'm the only one ever to be pointing this out to people. Most people think that the game is this static creature, but it's very much not. You don't line up lynches. There is no fate in the game of Mafia (at least when we're talking mountainous).

I could want a VPB lynch today and I could totally do a 180 on Fate tomorrow. Or vice versa. I've said that I think they're both scum, but you haven't ever found me guarantee anything. I don't make those kind of promises. Townies

can't

make those kinds of promises. At one point I thought the scum were Ythill, Sim, and Concission.

If you would've told me at the end of D1 that Concission would eventually be in my top two as far as town reads go, I'd have laughed at that. Yes, there's something to be said for relationships. The game is built on analyzing these relationships. Just don't be so arrogant (VPB, AGM, Fate, this goes for all three of you) to think that X is confirmed

anything

based on someone else's flip. It changes probabilities, absolutely, but that's all it changes.

---

The delayed flips aren't here for the LULZ. They exist because they are designed to encourage strategic focus on identifying scumgroups instead of just trololololynching whoever happens to be scummiest on one particular day. To win this game, we need to DIVIDE AND CONQUER in order to maximize our chances of hitting scum, not just spray all over the place onto whoever the fuck Fate thinks is scum.

Listen, AGM, I'm not being critical of you personally. I'm not being critical of the setup either. Hell, I agree with your reads. I think you're being naive though, because, as you said yourself, Fate could be being "mindtricked". It happens to the best of us. And if Fate and VPB want to argue that they've never been fooled before ever in Mafia, they're freaking lying to you. Fate is using the same exact argument on you. He's saying that I'm "mindtricking" you. In reality, I'm trying to play Mafia and I'm trying to scumhunt. I'm doing so without the level of arrogance that you guys are showing here.

Again, I'm not going to sit here and say that relationships don't make a difference. They make a heck of a difference. But so do posts. So do slips. So do flips. So do night actions. So do people who change their mind. If Fate up and said, "Ugh, maybe I need to take another look at this", I'm not going to sit here and say, "TOO LATE. U AND VPB 4 LYFE. I'LL LOSE BEFORE I DAMAGE MY PRIDE".

It's a complete mental game here. The entire thing. Everyone is trying to manipulate everyone else. I know this it coming off as philosophical, but that's my intention.

[RedCoyote]

1483 is the scummiset and most ELABORATE way to say "I reserve the right to change my reads at all times, whenver the fuck I want, and take no hard stances on anything."

What was my Sim vote? I pushed that thing from start to finish. No, I'm just being rational here, Fate, something you wouldn't know anything about. I let the circumstances of the game dictate my scumhunting. Everyone else is treating this game like some sort of partner game or something.

I find VPB scummy on his own merits. I find you scummy on your own merits. I came to these conclusions through the passage of the game. Your relationship with him does not make these reads better or worse. It's a complete red herring. And your WIFOM yelling and screaming is not going to change that either way.

"I can use long posts and logic to justify my scumplay. I won't even buddy town players, JUST confirmed ones. hehehhehe"

You're not even making sense. I thought, this whole time, you were coming at to me for buddying with AGM? Now you mean to tell me I've never buddied anyone?

And it's complete BS to say I haven't been townhunting. I called zora out as town for some time. If I was around when you and VPB and friends tried to get him quicklynched, I'd have spoken up about it then too.

---

@RC - Why will you lynch VPB but not Fate?

I think it's much more likely that VPB is scum and Fate is town rather than the other way around. VPB is lazy and unresponsive. He's trying to coast to the end of the day. Fate is actively challenging me and you. Maybe I'm being too optimistic about him, but I feel like he could be testing me. Fate is known to swing at a moment's notice (he's even done it in this game). I can never been 100% sure whether he believes what he says or he's putting all of his effort into getting other people to believe that he believes what he says. He's very good at that, so we'll see.

Fate would still be my second preference at this point though because, despite what I just said in the previous paragraph, he's still on the wrong side of the issue and giving horrible arguments (me and VPB can't be scum because we've buddied too hard, what I said in the above response to him, etc.).

---

considering that there's about a month and a half's worth of case that I've been putting on the same person, yes, this is an answer I need before continuing

Are you just waiting to hammer or something? You make this huge post about Concission (which was accurate, I think, but that's beside the point), but you're really refusing the engage the issue of the day. It's the issue of the day because no one else is putting anything else up. zora made a small effort to get us to focus on AGM, but I honestly think that's misguided.

I mean, do you honestly believe me, Fate, and VPB are all town? You've said that before. I don't know, it's like, are you working on a post or something? You seemed much more open during the first day. I know you caught some flak for it, but I'd rather have you that way. Do you think I'm totally offbase? Do you think Fate is? Or AGM? Or zora?

---

...processing where my final vote today should be.

>implying you'll be changing anything

---

Anybody want to vote LL?

Not particularly. VPB > Fate > I don't know, I guess Jarti would be next.

This replacement situation is pretty messed up, btw. Not that they care, I'd suspect, but you've got to be a little disappointed with both of them.

[RedCoyote]

Trust me, I've been reading and putting effort in. I'm just simply not going to get into a wall war with you. This is because 1) that type of play is generally useless and kills town motivation (which is something we desperately need more of in this game) and 2) almost nothing you've said actually makes sense with the facts with the game. Whether you're scum or your just that confused of a townie, it's not worth my time and effort. Call it what you will, I'm doing the game a service by not indulging your poorly crafted case.

You're absolutely not giving me a fair shake, and your dismissive behavior is a complete disguise.

I don't just mean your vote. I mean you're not taking me seriously and it's very much frustrating. I think your scum, VPB. I think your scum because of your play this game. This isn't just me goofing around or being confused. Instead of saying, "Okay, let's see what I have to do to make myself look town", you've resigned to the idea that I'm out to get you (despite the fact that I've been very open about this being cumulative... remember that I thought you were very much town D1), and you're using it as an excuse to sit back. I appreciate you telling me that you're putting an effort in, but "me and Fate are obvtown" ain't going to cut it. If that's the best you can do, then I really hope you're done for.

Maybe we have serious political disagreements, but I just don't like this idea that, "I think X is scum/town, so now I don't ever have to engage him again". I mean, what's the point? If it's succinctness, it's not working because people are

still

replacing out with the game moving at a snail's pace.

---

@Mod: Can we get a deadline extension?

Hi, Mae! Thanks for replacing.

I second this,

Mod

. No side should get an advantage due to inconsiderate players.

---

I must have my answer!

And I'm still waiting on you to answer me. ISO = isolation though.

---

Bah... Unbelievable I miss marathon weekend for this stupid shit...

Why is this causing you to miss anything? You're just spouting the same nonsense you spouted yesterday.

That being said, why are both Fate and VPB in your "sure town"?

[RedCoyote]

I don't really agree with the VPB wagon, since I have a slightly-town read on him, but meh.

Yeah. Meh. Sounds about right. Love the enthusiasm.

Can't really say the same from the other cases, however, since I didn't read them yet.

Of course you haven't. It's not like there's a deadline in 12 hours.

[RedCoyote]

I'm pissed at VPB for being scum. I'm pissed at AGM and Mae for leaving me holding the bag here. I'm pissed at zora for being a lone ranger. I'm pissed at Concission for abandoning us at the deadline.

The only two people I'm seemingly not pissed at are Fate and LL.

[RedCoyote]

Oh, and I'm pissed at VV too. Because he doesn't have a pair. And crypto. For buying VPB's crap.

[RedCoyote]

Unvote

;

vote: Fate

[RedCoyote]

I never did quite understand why VPB was even voting me to begin with. Same with crypto. Fate, of course, has an opportunistic reason for doing so (and, honestly, more than that, he's been pushing an agenda since D2, so there's that too). In the case of SD, he's just a number. He knows he's going to die, so he's just using his vote as a complete, unabashed number. Can't blame him, he can't see his buddy go down.

But VPB's rationale for voting me is because Fate is his friend or "brosef".

crypto never really provided a rationale. He's just kicking back because he doesn't care about the game.

Now look at the Fate wagon. Every person on the Fate wagon has provided reasoning for being there. I've wanted this lynch since yesterday. AGM has wanted this lynch all day. VV has wanted this lynch all day. LL, fairly, has not, but he recently came to the conclusion after seriously weighing the options.

Compare this to the wagon on me if you have the time, zora & Mae. See which of the people voting me have weighed the options. See which of the people voting me have been interested in my lynch for earnest reasons. I guarantee you you won't find much. There's clearly a disconnect between the wagons. There's a disconnect because the scum are fighting with every bone in their body to get me lynched today.

[RedCoyote]

It's different because I've wanted you lynched for honest reasons. That isn't a mutual thing.

It makes you more likely to flip scum because there are most likely two scumbags on my wagon and quite possibly none on your wagon.

[RedCoyote]

That's quite possible. There's not much else left to explain his behavior. Neither of you are anywhere close to obvious town. It's the same argument we've had for the past ten pages. The only difference is the scum team lucked out that two people who were going to help the town take down the scumteam replaced out and the game is left with a useless vote and Mae hasn't been around long enough to see your trickery with her own eyes. So, I mean, yeah, I guess. Nice work, Fate. You gamed your way out of a for sure scum lynch with two perfectly times replacements.

[RedCoyote]

If you think Jarti and Concission wouldn't have voted for you then you're delusional.

[RedCoyote]

Look, anyways, I'm not going to stay here. I just wanted to check if Mae had the balls (yes, VV, I use it for both sexes, but for some reason I thought you were a guy, sorry) to stand up to Fate's abuse. Apparently that wasn't the case. I don't blame her though, it's hard to faceoff against scumFate, especially when you don't have any sort of grip on the thread.

We'll start this all over again tomorrow when SD flips scum and Fate has to start a whole new line of BS.

[RedCoyote]

I just want to open up with the comment that the Concission vote was pretty silly. Concission was either my top or my second-to-top town read. I have no idea where the hell the idea of lynching him came from, and I'm going to investigate that some more.

I'll self-vote if SD flips scum. I'm that damn sure.

Still waiting.

I'm actually intrigued by your plan though. Normally I'm extremely opposed to lining up lynches, but I think you're onto something here. Either you think your partner is safe, or you want us to think your partner is safe. Which is it, Fate?

[RedCoyote]

Vote: Fate

[RedCoyote]

The fact that we couldn't get a single person to switch votes with 36 hours left before deadline to a wagon that at least 5 people favored is just sad.

Vote: Shadow Dancer

Pretty sure that's the hammer. If I die tonight, take another look at a Concission-Fate pairing please.

Explain how this is obvscum. I'm not seeing it.

[RedCoyote]

I need to read over SD's posts for sure. I'm guessing this is where VPB and Fate are implying there is a connection between VV. I didn't notice anything in the run up to yesterday's lynch with the exception of someone pointing out a little earlier that SD was conspicuously singling out VV somewhat. That said, he was doing the same thing for me, so I don't know how much stock I'm ready to put into that.

Even if I begrudgingly accept that VPB has just let Fate pull his strings this game, I have a very hard time seeing a Fate-VV scumteam. I need to read the game in this context. My gut tells me Fate and Jarti are a team though, because I know, having been absolutely on top of Fate longer than anyone else here has, Jarti has flipped, flopped, hemmed, and hawed this entire game on the prospect of going after Fate. Mae has not done any better (and, in fact, done considerably worse with her weird "angry vote" on Fate yesterday) to convince me otherwise.

[RedCoyote]

I like the new look, VV! Pika-power! I wonder why no one else has thought of it yet...

Anyways, seriously, I'm making a post tonight. I got caught up in a lot of other stuff yesterday.

[RedCoyote]

Spoiler: Read this if you want to see how I came to my conclusions on SD

How would a discussion on the lineup help you determine if Crypto is scum?

Potentially a weak distancing attempt early on. Let's give crypto a little bit for this.

@Baltar: So now after Crypto has answered: What did his answer tell you about his allignment?

Wow, more speaking on crypto's behalf. Let's give him a little bit more for this.

Of course Crypto is thinking about the setup - you asked him to do so. But how do you consider asking him about the setup scum-hunting?

@Crypto: Seriously: No idea. I am trying to find out what he was up to.

This was kind of a weird discussion that I don't really remember happening. I'd write it off except for the fact that SD flipped scum and crypto is still alive.

unvote. cote Anti

Mimicing Fate and hot air is not enough.

This is still very early into the game. The wagon at this point was LL, Sim, Fate, and now SD. Knowing that SD is scum, of course this isn't genuine. I think this really begins to establish a connection between them though. There were several other different votes cast at that point.

I seriously don't know how some people consider Jarti's last post a town-tell... It explains his previous rather dispensable question to the mod a bit, but that is completely null...

Either trying to egg on a mislynch or trying to distance a little more here. It's still noteworthy.

I got some bad vibes from Con, Sim and Jarty.
I am also a bit suspicious of Percy and Alma right now...

And after reading Ythill's and LL's strategy arguments again I am still convinced that Ythill's proposed tactic is the best, since most stable, tactic...

I'll elaborate on it tomorrow, good night.

Oh, here you go. Here's a little nugget of scumhunting deliciousness.

You can look at this a couple of different ways. There's surely one scum in that group of five, he lists as suspicious, but that's not going to help us much at this juncture given that four of them are still alive.

Now, would he hide his buddy (or buddies) in the "bad vibes" or the "bit suspicious" category. Usually scum just want to give their buddies a touch of suspicion, but, based on my level of involvement in this game, I'm betting that this post makes Jarti look worst of all.

Another thing to note is how I'm not on this list (despite the fact that SD ends up voting me for nearly the entire D2 & 3.

That Baltar waggon needs to stop.

I coulds see Percy as scum, his reasoning to jump on that waggon felt really stretched to me.

Connection points to both VPB and VV.

I don't know. I still like the Anti waggon, but that's not going to do much in the near future as it seems and Percy and Conc, though derserving more pressure, don't even have a waggon O_o. So I'll join the Alma waggon

This reads to me like misdirection. I do not see an AGM-SD partnership in the cards. I think this was another mislynch attempt (like Anti was).

What's better about this post is his blurbs on Jarti and Percy. Both of them look like potential connections. He's really riding Jarti pretty hard though, which makes Percy look a little more likely as a partner...

Of course his other partner is undoubtedly in his supposed current town reads (essentially the players he's not mentioning). Either VPB, Fate, crypto, or LL.

Long story short. One buddy is between Equinox/Concission, AGM, VV/Percy, and Mae/Jarti, and the other is between VPB, Fate, crypto, and LL.

I've been beating around the bush, but I'm officially ready to declare a Fate/VPB partnership dead. It just doesn't make sense from what I'm reading here of SD. I just don't think he'd mark both of his partners as super townie. In VPB's case, he lays it on super thick. Calling out the people who are voting him as well as speaking on his behalf against crypto early in the game. With Fate it's more subtle. It's like there's an

unspoken alliance

between him and Fate, heh.

SD, let me test my theory... what's the next noteworthy thing you say?

But Baltar is still town, Ythill...

Bingo.

This is really starting to look less and less like an SD-VPB partnership. This is just way too thick of a connection he's setting himself.

And my scum reads were listed in no particular order other than how the names dropped into my consciousness. Right now I wouldn't put Jarti into my top three.

This is a weird backpedal on Jarti. Hmmm... I think this is enough to bring Jarti back up to the same level as VV/Percy once again. For those keeping score at home. VV/Percy and Mae/Jarti are leaving AGM and Equinox/Concission in the dust. The former two look much more likely to be partners than the latter two.

@Alma: I hope you post soon. The further progress of this game dependends a lot on you right now.

Coaching? Eh, I'll give it some acknowledgment.

Woow... Looks like I missed quite a bit... And I see an Alma post. An its quite a long one :\ On first read I see quite some things that need commenting. But I'm too lazy to write a WOT now. Maybe tomorrow.

Unvote

. for now.

This doesn't look too good either.

He didn't even address AGM's post. He just says that he'll unvote him "for now".

Ugh, this is throwing me off a bit. AGM is looking a little more likely to be a buddy now. I still don't see any Concission connection at all though.

If you have as much cloes meta of Baltar as you claim, could you somehow convert that knowledge into some coherent line of thought, that could explain your case to otheres (or at least me ) without the need of a deeper knowledge of his meta or to read one of those games?!

This was too Concission, but this just lends greater support to my theory that SD and VPB were simply too close for comfort. Bringing up VPB as a townread in every other post is forcing the point.

Luck's making way too much of a show out of everything :\ Not sure what to make of it, yet...

This is half-assed. Gives more support to a possible LL connection. If it's broken down like I think it is, now we're at something like...

Fate >>>>>>>>> LL >> crypto >>>>>>VPB

and

Mae > VV >>> AGM >>>>>>>>>>> Equinox

Call me overfocussed, but I also don't like how RC lapses onto VV's half baked cases.

I don't remember this point. I don't even know what he's talking about. VV and I agreed on Fate, but I don't recall ever "lapsing" onto anymore of his "half baked cases". I bring this up because this makes VV slightly more likely of a partner (trying to tie a townie to his partner).

Hmmm... RC's attack on Fate feels forcefully stretched.

Yeah, I'll bet. SD hardly every mentions Fate in his posts. The few times he does, it's either fluff or it's him talking about someone else's relationship to Fate. He did this with me here, but he also did this with Antihero a couple of times and now me. He's not talking with Fate directly. He doesn't want to have to call him town. Compare this to someone like VPB or LL. VPB he bring up every other post, constantly defending his honor. This originally sidetracked me, I think, and got me thinking there was a connection between them. Now I see SD just wanted there to be a connection between him and VPB. In LL's case, he's giving a more traditional "could be scum, could be town" thing. There could be a connection here, although I think it's more likely in Fate's case.

Fate is about 80% Fate and 20% good points (even more so since he gave up on his 2-liner-policy) which probably means he is 90% town (metaphorically speaking that is, not exact numbers) with the 10% missing being my doubts if I can read Fate at all...

He's starting to bring up Fate a little more, but this is still the first time he has actually given his opinion on Fate himself directly (as opposed to the indirect method I mentioned above). Remember though that this is around the time that someone (me) actually starts calling out Fate. I don't think Glados has yet, but Fate was actually posting a lot more around this time.

@Baltar: Your assumption that scum would neccesarily claim a PR is naive at best, especially considering the lynch mechanic which would give scum another day on the guillotine... And the tracker, which Sim could have been, considering that you considered him town, would also have claimed VT, just to get that one track in instead of being NKed right away. And a simple CC of any lesser town role would hardly have hurt town but scum would nonthelless have been confirmed becuase scum would obviously not CC a claimed town PR. But that's not even the point at all.
The point is that you pressed a claim and hence a sure lynch on some one that you considered a townie although you knew that it would mean his doom. And that is smething I cannot make any sense of from a townie PoV.

This is kind of a weird 180 in his reads, but, spoiler alert, SD ends up still calling VPB for sure town before he dies, so I'm not going to let this influence me much.

IN CASE NO ONE NOTICED: CONC MADE A STUNNING 180° TURN FROM OPPOSING A CLAIM TO APPROVING IT, OBVIOUSLY WITHOUT EVEN REMEBERING HER EARLIER OPINION.

IN CASE NO ONE NOTICED: THIS BIG ALL CAPS COMMENT REALLY DOESN'T MAKE ME THINK THAT CONCISSION IS SCUM CONNECTED TO SD.

AGM was a good lynch yesterday and still is today, but never my top suspect. How is my waggoning him scummy? Even if it's not the first time?

You know, I kind of forgot to include this in the earlier part of this post. SD and AGM aren't buddies. There was a time earlier in the game where that was a very reasonable conclusion, but given the fact that he tried to sneak a lynch on him (and there's no way no how that you can convince me that SD didn't know what he was doing), AGM really has a lot going in his favor.

Baltar is still town - hell annoyingly erratic town - but still as town as any big accumulation of buildings.

Yay! My theory is getting more and more evidence. SD is just keeping on with the "VPB is town" schtick. Anyways, I've known there were at least two scum (I said there were possibly three during D3, but that was more because I really knew one of them were scum and was willing to take the mislynch if we could get them both... I realize now that was probably not the best direction to go because now VPB is sold on Fate as town, in part, I'm sure, due to my stubbornness) in this SD-VPB-Fate triumvate for some time now. I'm just waiting for this town to get a damn clue.

I couldn't decide who was worse, but reading over SD in isolation clearly points to Fate.

The harder question is who the third is.

So yeah... AGM was scummy scumscum, is scummy scumscum and remains scummy scumscum.

unvote. vote AGM

Heh. More evidence that AGM is town.

About Fate lynch... I don't know. I don't really trust my early town read on him, but I still have it, the last few pages of terrible WIFOM were a lot over the top, though... Still not at all a reason to not lynch the really scummy guys...

Oh, wow. Wow, wow, wow.

Can you say backpedaling? It's like everything he ever had to say about Fate is so completely artifical. Now he's defaulting on the, "could be town, could be scum" routine.

Scum team: AGM + RC: Fate already mentioned a million more damn good bloody reasons than I would ever care to do for even the slowest of you to get bith the individual scumminesses of those two as well as the obvious connection.

And here Fate is town again, I guess. So, even though SD "doesn't really trust his early town read" on him, He's absolutely right about an AGM+RC partnership?

Third scum: Whaddafuk do I know. Some one along Maem/LL/Conc (in that order of likelihood).

Somewhat townsomethingelish: VV, Crypto

The third scum is definitely in here. Going based on my theory that there's a scum in one group and a scum in the other group, you can rule out LL and crypto. Again, this points to my earlier suspicion that the third scum is either VV or Mae. They're both virtually tied here.

VV looks really worse now.
And his voting behaviour draws a strong connection to RC scum. He's expressed some suspicion of fate since ... I think even D2, why has he withheld his vote so long?!
However, both Alma's and LL's votes on Fate are also both super scummy...

Eh, maybe a last ditch effort to get VV lynched? It could go either way, but this doesn't read like a VV-SD partnership. Still giving the edge to Mae.

Long story short, there are two people who I'd pretty much rule out as scum now: VPB and AGM.

There's a scum in the group of Fate, crypto, and LL and one in the group of Mae, Equinox, and VV based primarily off of SD's post 241.

To further take my reads into account, I just don't really see LL or Equinox as scumreads. I guess it doesn't matter at this point if Equinox is scum or not (although if that slot does flip scum it will end up completely changing everything I'm concluding on its head). I mean personally, from playing this game, I did not (or do in LL's case) get strong scumvibes from them. Reading over SD hasn't really changed that. They both may still be potential buddies, but I did not see overwhelming evidence that would lead me to believe that. In other words, because of these things, I'm throwing them out.

So we have four potential partnerships in my eyes:

Fate - VV
Fate - Mae
crypto - VV
crypto - Mae

One of these four players should be our lynch today. That much goes without saying. My next goal is to analyze the strength of each of these partnerships, but I can tell you right now I'm already inclined toward Fate & Mae. They've had a very flaky, strange relationship throughout the game. It's something I actually witnessed and brought up (here and here) during the game more than any of the other potential partnerships.

[RedCoyote]

@RC - What we need to do is calculate out exactly how many lynches we have left. I have a feeling this is partially going to have to be luck based given the delayed flips. I just got up so I'm kind of lazy atm, but maybe in a couple hours I will figure out how many times we can lynch and how many of those people listed we can afford to get rid of.

Assuming Equinox flips town, which I'm predicting will happen (and I'm just going to do this without regard for the likelihood of it happening):

N4

AlmasterGM

- NK
crypto - On Guillotine
Fate
Maemuki
LuckayLuck
Vigilante Ventriloquist
RedCoyote
VP Baltar

Equinox

D5

Fate - On Guillotine
Maemuki
LuckayLuck
Vigilante Ventriloquist
RedCoyote
VP Baltar

crypto

N5

Fate - On Guillotine

Maemuki

- NK
LuckayLuck
Vigilante Ventriloquist
RedCoyote
VP Baltar

crypto

D6

LuckayLuck - On Guillotine
Vigilante Ventriloquist
RedCoyote
VP Baltar

Fate

Okay, so, essentially we have to hit scum in the next three days? I believe that's right.

Either Fate > Mae > VV > crypto or Fate > crypto > Mae > VV seems like a safe bet. I may be willing to compromise on Mae first, but I still need to read over some more. I think with the deadline extension I can procrastinate a bit, whoever replaces crypto is going to be the key here though. I think I can get me, AGM, VV, and LL to go with with Fate first, but the last person is probably going to need to be either Equinox or crypto's replacement. I doubt Mae's replacement will want to go that route. VV's willingness to lynch Fate is a much better sign than Mae's reluctance to, and it's a significant part of the reason why I feel like Fate-Mae is the obvious pairing here.

[RedCoyote]

Wait. We have only one mislynch left? I was under the impression we had 3 days.

Scum on guillotine is still considered alive for the purposes of win condition.

Okay, I just read over the rules. I had thought this question was answered somewhere before, but I couldn't find it. I think you're right here, Equinox.

There will be 6 living people tomorrow with 1 of them on the guillotine. If that person isn't scum, then there were be 4 living people tomorrow with 1 on the guillotine. One of those two people must be scum. I calculated it right in my last post, I just put the wrong conclusion down. It's not three days; it's two days. Either this lynch has to be right, or the next lynch has to be right.

Eh, still kind of want to wait for the replacements before changing anything.

[RedCoyote]

I'd like LL dead today.

That's a pretty ballsy move over what is effectively just a changing in playstyle and stroking a popular dichotomy. I mean, I don't think LL did much to deny the VPB+Fate / RC+AGM thing, but I wouldn't necessarily say he was the biggest perpetrator either. VPB, do you put any stock into the idea that, because LL's initial scumreads were so offbase, he may have taken that blow to his self-esteem a little hard?

---

@ Fate: Do you really think Vigilante Ventriloquist is so scummy when attached to Shadow Dancer? I mean, VV hammered SD. I know this is a surface argument but on a day in which AlmasterGM was almost lynched, that was a pretty serious move.

This is the hardest part I'm having to swallow myself. Both Jarti and VV were on that wagon, but VV hammered it. I just don't understand how this points to any sort of obvious connection between him and SD. I've been told that it's not the hammer but, rather, it's how VV and SD acted while he was on the guillotine. I didn't notice anything specific when I looked over SD's D3 posts. If anything it just pointed to Fate, especially this post. I just really need to go back over Fate and try again to show how strongly I feel about Fate's scum alignment here. I think I'm going to advertise this game in my signature for a little while.

[RedCoyote]

Spoiler: Fate Notes

I hate it when Shadow Dancer is town.

Mislynch fodder ahoy.

Quite possibly setting the stage here. A very early post calling SD a townie that would be mislynched. A wagon that he would soon push and then stop pushing. He's mostly screwing around with Antitown at this point though.

Luck is as obvtown as it gets. I have no interest in a VP lynch today.

Anti is scummy as all hell, and Jarti is even WORSE. There's no way you can seriously advocate a VP lynch over a Jarti one at this point in time.

Interesting mention of Jarti here without a mention of SD or Percy. Looks like a classic "mix your scum read in with some townies" move.

I've played with SD multiple times. I've mislynched him as scum. I've been his scumbuddy.

Etc.

Very awkward looking comment in retrospect. This is the kind of arrogant comment I'd expect scumFate to make, personally.

The only compromise I'm willing to make is on Jarti, as Concission has finally made a decent post.

Again, kind of an awkward, "Jarti is a good lynch... but Antitown is a better one!" I mean, there was nothing wrong with it at the time, but, remember, we're trying to figure out if this is townFate who sincerely had suspicions like this, or whether he was trying some sort of trickery.

Fine Jarti can be town.

But incomprehensible, mislynch foddering, poison of the earth town.

I'm not cherrypicking this. I mean, I am just picking out quotes I want to comment on, but I mean that I'm not just looking for Jarti connections here. He just doesn't talk about Percy or SD much at all. He calls both VPB and LL strong townreads on several occasions.

Still need to see more Percy/VV interactions, but this, so far, is really backing up my conclusion that there's a Fate-Jarti connection here.

Its probably just

RC
Percy
AGM

It's really, really weird how this is the second time he brings up a scumteam with Percy in it, but he refuses to even talk about Percy content-wise. On the same token, he's calling Jarti scum, but he won't label him as part of a scumteam.

Id take a Shadow lynch, my town read on him is only meta

More lip service to a "compromise lynch", but I'm noticing a pattern. Fate is not voting these people. Here he comes, out of nowhere, with a call to an SD lynch, but he's not willing to put a vote behind it, nor is he willing to comment more than just, "eh, I just have a meta read on him". This was 27 pages into the game, mind you. Like Jarti and Percy, he keeps giving comments that go both ways about what he thinks on their alignment, but, at this point, he has not entertained any of these lynches with his vote. He's only voted townies (assuming Equinox flips town).

Zoraster quit dicking around. SD isn't getting lynched not because of just VP but because of the CONSENSUS of people who have no interest in SD.

Again, a total reversal from what he just said. He'd accept a SD lynch, then zora tries to rally people around an SD wagon, and Fate tries to put the brakes on. For what? I mean, it's easy to just look here and say, "yeah, this is just Fate", but what wagon is he pushing now? In Fate's very next post he votes himself.

A large part of D2 he spends just slinging mud at me. There's very little to be gained here, I think, except for the broad, general fact that he's causing a lot of misdirection by appearing to feel slighted by my casual starting of a Fate wagon.

LL/AGM/RC.

JUST LIKE THAT BABY, THIS GAME'S WRAPPED UP.

Hmmm... what happened to Percy? Why is Jarti still missing from this list? Still waiting for a decent mention of anyone who isn't me, VPB, or AGM...

And to those who wanted to know why Jarti is town, look at his latest tinfoil:

FATE HAS SECRET COMMUNICATION WITH SCUM IN THREAD ON WHO HE WANTED TO LYNCHHHHHH

That kinda seeing things that aren't there bullshit only comes from town.

More townreading, but I suspect he'll go back in the other direction again soon enough. Still no mention of Percy/VV.

bUnvote:
Vote: Shadow Dancer

In response to SD's slip. This was fair enough. Really I started to lean more toward VPB as SD's buddy at this point.

I wouldn't defend either Jarti-town or Concission-town as scum, I'd FUCKING LYNCH THEM.

...but you'd defend Jarti-scum?

This, again, is just typical arrogant scumFate in my eyes with these constant, weird comments about Jarti who he has never voted. I don't understand the juxtaposition here either. Why put him next to Concission?

And yes SD and AGM are probably both scum together.

Oh, wow.

I don't have a good feeling about this, HOPEFULLY SD and AGM are both scum or we're pretty fucked.

In other words, "I need to keep drilling in that I think AGM is scum so I can save SD's ass from being lynched at the wire here".

Let's all do it and then debate and lynch either Shadow or RedCoyote.

He keeps tossing SD in here like he ever intends to vote him. It just looks so fake now after Fate moved firmly against the SD wagon in favor of joining SD on the AGM wagon.

I mean, all I see here is Fate trying to, one, save face if he doesn't get his way, and two, get a mislynch over SD.

I mean, what happened to how SD was obvious scum on account of his vote? That's what got me to lead the damn charge. Fate subscribed to that, and has since completely failed to bring it up again.

HERE IT IS! Boy talk about a read that dropped off the face of the Earth.

WOW WHO KNEW ISOING SCUM WOULD NET FINDING... so MANY DAMN SCUMMY THINGS?

Now I'm wondering... why in the world was Concission the lynch if I obviously was trying to get his lynch D1? Just more unexplainable Fate nonsense here.

Oh, here's something juicy...

Vote: Jarti

Fuck it. Just fucking fuck it. I don't even remember the last time he said anything of value.

If SD flips scum, lynch ViVi.

Wait a minute, I thought you were just voting Jarti? Now VV is scum?

Save it. At this point you're already trying to setup the next lynch, knowing what SD is going to flip. This strikes me like you're sewing the seeds of a VV mislynch before SD even flipped. You aim is to get a VV wagon going tomorrow, knowing you'll inevitable kill zora and the next day people are going to be looking for connections. So, if I was scumFate, and I needed another mislynch, who would I turn to... It can't be RC or AGM, you've already lost that battle. It can't be VPB, LL, or crypto, you've already called them town too many times. It can't be SD or zora, they're both dead. It can't be Jarti, he's your scumbuddy. It has to be either Concission or VV.

And, wouldn't you know it, half your plan is already played out. Concission was the lynch and now VV is where you're gunning for the next one. I knew there was something weird about that. This post really sticks out to me, because I see something really sinister here. You were going after VV in earnest, not Jarti.

I've seen about enough. There is only so much I can read in one sitting. This isn't everything.

Posts 516 leads me toward a VV partnership.

Posts 1446, 1424, 1075, and 287 are all really leading me toward a Mae partnership. I know there's even more goodies in Jarti/Mae's isos, but I'm really getting tired.

chess, thanks for replacing in. You're in a good spot to join me on a Fate lynch today. I don't mean just, "lol we get to lynch fate so much fun", but I mean an honest-to-goodness scumFate lynch. Look over my past couple of posts if your want some insight into Fate-SD connections (SD has flipped scum and is our biggest lead at the moment given that our Tracker was killed early).

[RedCoyote]

AlmasterGM, you'd better start telling me why Fate is not town. If the "U COASTING" accusation applies to anyone in this game right now, it's you.

I just made two large posts on the subject that you didn't acknowledge. Goodness gracious.

I mean, I've got you going after AGM, I've got Grey going after VPB, and I've got VPB going after LL.

SD's flip was, without a doubt, the most critical event in this entire game. Sim's wagon could probably stand a little more analysis, but that was generally "accepted" toward the end of D1, so it kind of lacks the ferocity that was behind the SD lynch. But SD was a scum lynch that had to be fought for tooth and nail. It was an old school, no investigations, scum slipped up, town sunk their teeth in and didn't let go kind of lynch. The scum fought against that lynch, too. You better believe they did. It was a real battle and it gave us a lot of information.

The point I'm making here is that this game is narrowed down at this point. Much more than you, Grey, and (probably) chess are giving it credit for. You especially have a pretty important role to play today given that I'm convinced your slot is town. My heart and mind say that I've got this game down to 4 possible partnerships, and I think you need to give us more credit.

[RedCoyote]

Damnit, Equinox.

LL, why are you lazing about? You realize you're about to be strung up?

[RedCoyote]

Patience, sir. The cases on Fate-town and Fate-scum are many in number, quite large, and very involved. Besides, LuckayLuck and VP Baltar look worse at the moment.

I'm beating my head against the wall for all that mental work I did to narrow this game down to four possibilities... and now it's looking like that is going to be completely pissed down the drain in favor of a choice between one person who is obvious town and one person who I have a comfortable townread on.

The weaker of the two wagons (it's looking to be the VPB voters) need to concede and get behind Fate. I'm not being stubborn here, but VPB and LL were not possibilites I wanted to consider for our lynch today way before Grey or chess came on the scene. The deadline is inching closer and a VPB lynch is totally misguided. I appreciate the work Grey has done to make his case (I'm not arguing that he isn't working hard here), but I'm convinced, based on the interaction between SD, that VPB is just not scum this game. Further, I would really not like to see an LL lynch either, certainly not when I can think of four people I'd rather see on the guillotine.

[RedCoyote]

Ok, Equinox, so you tell me that I couldn't have read crypto's responses as earnest and then in the next paragraph you say you found him town because his posts sounded like genuine embarassment. So, the same exact thing I am saying, you are saying, but I'm scum because I couldn't have seen it the way that you see it? I don't even get this game anymore.

You specifically asked crypto to look at the setup, and he did so. The purpose of you asking this question was to see if he was thinking about the setup. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that, if he got it wrong, you would have corrected him and based your read of him off that. This post and this post were the two posts immediately following crypto's; the second of the two is the one where you proclaim crypto's thought about the setup makes him town. It's obvious you didn't read what crypto said.

RedCoyote

, tell me why, despite this evidence, VP Baltar is town.

I read this over, but I feel like your operating on outdated, less substantial information here. Don't you agree with me that there should be one major, pivotal event (the SD lynch) that we should focus on for this lynch, regardless whether we come to the same conclusion about who it should be? Further, we should look to SD's posts as the only proven scum to analyze what he said about the other players? This is what I did. I feel like it's the most objective way we can move forward in this game and generally in similar situations (open game, no third parties, no other scum team, no power roles, and one scum flip).

Lucky for us, Equinox, SD's history is an absolute gold mine. I won't even ask you to just re-read over my old posts, because I know you're trying to engage me here; I think we can still come to a rational conclusion that isn't VPB. We agree on more than we disagree on, I think. We both think LL, RC, Equinox, and are town. We both agree, to an extent, that chess is a townread (I'm not prepared to say he's a full fledged "townread", but I will easily say that I can think of three people I'd rather lynch than him). We both think Fate has a solid chance at being scum.

Let me cherrypick some of the conclusions I reached about VPB for you, because I've had a very up-and-down history in this game while reading him. There are two really big posts (iso 28 & iso 98) that SD made that are influencing my approach to voting today, and I'll be happy to elaborate on them and/or argue with you about them if you think I'm totally misguided.

I got some bad vibes from Con, Sim and Jarty.
I am also a bit suspicious of Percy and Alma right now...

And after reading Ythill's and LL's strategy arguments again I am still convinced that Ythill's proposed tactic is the best, since most stable, tactic...

I'll elaborate on it tomorrow, good night.

There's a couple of ways to look at this post. First off, there's bound to be at least one scum in that first group of five he lists there given the players we still have living here. Without any further analysis, that's not particularly helpful, but you have to remember a couple of things about what happened since then, and what was going on during. At this point, all the players were still alive. The post is just wonderful because it almost splits the remaining people we have now into two separate groups. I don't want to crunch the numbers (maybe you will, that's beyond my liberal arts background), but I'm fully prepared to bank this game on the idea that one of his scumbuddies is in that list of names, and one is not.

Where does that leave us? One group of AGM, VV, Grey, and you, and one group of me, LL, Fate, crypto, VPB. Is that too perfect, or is that too perfect? SD had no idea how the game was going to end up breaking down at this point, that's why I put so much stock into this post. It would be extremely hard to convince me otherwise.

In any case, if you are with me up until this point, then we've got to get you to get me to believe that VPB is scum over LL, crypto, and Fate. Here's the next piece:

SD came on way, way, way too strong to be partners with VPB. Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about.

That Baltar waggon needs to stop.

But Baltar is still town, Ythill...

If you have as much cloes meta of Baltar as you claim, could you somehow convert that knowledge into some coherent line of thought, that could explain your case to otheres (or at least me ) without the need of a deeper knowledge of his meta or to read one of those games?!

Baltar is still town - hell annoyingly erratic town - but still as town as any big accumulation of buildings.

These are just a handful of examples, but he keeps at it throughout his entire time alive. Just about every other post he mentioned something about VPB. I just struggle to believe that SD would've attached himself to his buddy so willingly and so blatantly. Do you? Do you think this was all misdirection here?

Compare this, if you will, to this:

About Fate lynch... I don't know. I don't really trust my early town read on him, but I still have it, the last few pages of terrible WIFOM were a lot over the top, though... Still not at all a reason to not lynch the really scummy guys...

This is the crowned jewel as far as I'm concerned. Given the voting patterns yesterday and the scramble that resulted in putting you on the guillotine... this absolutely reeks. This is it. This is SD saying that Fate is not his buddy. This is SD saying that he's about the flip scum and he should sprinkle a little suspicion on him for when people look back over SD's last couple of posts. This is distancing. This is contradictory to his attitude of almost completely ignoring Fate for the better part of the game. This post does not gel with SD's historical view of Fate, and guess when he says it? When he's right about to die. When the AGM wagon was noticably falling apart and it was looking less and less like AGM was going to get lynched.

Too big of a coincidence from a player who already made one fatal slip-up.

[RedCoyote]

Look, I appreciate the effort you put into this game, Grey & Equinox. I mean, I thought VPB was scum for sometime myself. Hell, for a good while I even thought Fate and VPB were scum together. It's just, as I said, the foundation of my judgment is coming from SD's words himself. I mean, granted, it's my interpretation of those words, but it's still rooted in proven scum rhetoric. That was what really turned the tide for me, and you can see it in my post history. On top of it all, I think I have a fairly good gauge on Fate in general. I don't want to say it's infallible or anything, but I've caught him on a couple different occasions in anti-town roles, and I think he fits that same bill here.

If SD and VPB are scum together, then I will congratulate both of them on a damn fine job and bow down to both of your superior scumhunting abilities even more than I do now.

[RedCoyote]

No, we have another lynch tomorrow. I appreciate your putting that effort in, LL. Hopefully this will clue people in to what I've come to realize.

Listen, let me make a bargain with you, LL, because I perfectly prepared to agree to a lynch on chess provided we do something else first.

Fate has to go.

I've already come to the conclusion that there are only four potential partnerships here long before there were replacements here. Grey has been making a lot of noise in defense of his friend Fate, and that has sort of skewed everything out of whack here. I'm partially to blame here because I haven't been diligent enough in pursuing what I've concluded, but, to be fair, the case

can

be made against VPB. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying there's enough wiggle room in an 80 page game to find the rationale behind any of us as scum. And Grey, I mean, he has to, as him and Fate are in dire straits.

That said, I'm not arrogant enough to believe that I'm 100% right in my analysis and that I cannot have made an error. I've said it multiple times today at Fate-Grey is the most logical pairing, but I've also said that I think SD left us a golden nugget in his post history when he segregated the players into two different groups. I'll stake this game on the fact that there's one scum between Fate & chess and the last scum between Grey & VV. VV's hammer is such a bar raiser that I'm fully prepared to acknowledge him as the least likely culprit, but, because of both Grey's play and because of the full implications of SD's post 241, I just cannot completely rule him out.

Anyways, I don't want to ramble, the point I'm making is that I'm sold on a scum between Fate and crypto, so if you join my wagon, I'll be willing to appease you for a crypto beheading tomorrow (even though it won't be necessary when Fate flips scum, but we won't know that until after we've laid crypto on the guillotine anyways).

Do we have a deal?

[RedCoyote]

Of course, when I say crypto, I mean chess. I still can't really get it through my head that chess has that slot because I feel like he's had such a little influence on the slot (not necessarily due to lack of effort, but, it's almost like Grey is eclipsing him just by a sheer mountain of activity).

[RedCoyote]

If you think I'm going to drudge my way through all that spam, you're kidding yourself. There's absolutely no reason we cannot have a rational, stable conversation.

VPB, please explain your "two votes" comment.
VV, why are you voting Fate and FoSing VPB? Fate is on the guillotine.

Now if people (e.g. Fate) want to calm down and talk to me like a stable person, I'm willing to hear them out. Otherwise don't even bother.

[RedCoyote]

Why are you trying to quicklynch VPB, Grey? We have plenty of time. Let VPB explain his comment.

[RedCoyote]

Well, then why not just vote him? Or are you not as sold as Grey & Fate are?

[RedCoyote]

Fate, the meta is DEFCON 2.0 and Walking Dead. If you want to go further, I called you town in Rapture Mafia as well.

[RedCoyote]

Okay, Fate. I guess I'll trust you this time.

Vote: VPB

[RedCoyote]

Please. Your motivations were scum all the way.

It feels good to get a little sweet justice against you after that one though. A shame chess kind of got a double whammy. I've got a lot more to say, but I don't have time to type it all out right now.

[RedCoyote]

As you all know, this was the debut run of Rusty Guillotine, and farside has asked that you answer these questions:

1) what players thought of the set up
2) did they feel with the delay in knowing the roles that it may not fall under the Open guidelines
3) would they play it again. If so why/or why not?

1) As a few others have already stated, it could probably use a tweak or two. It's so difficult to analyze a setup from one playthrough, because, you know, the circumstances will change everytime. Still, I did feel that the scumteam was slightly, slightly overpowered. I think others are making a bigger deal of the power roles than not though. The power difference is almost negligible. The delayed flips hurt the town more than the setup itself, I think.

Setup-wise, you're going from a town that unluckily lost their Tracker, a Tracker who may have caught scum on the first night (I don't remember if I submitted the kill or not), on the first night, their Vig on the second day, and their RS on the third day. That's a lot of power to lose. I say unluckily because, at least in the instance of the Tracker, I could've easily put my foot down against it. I did not read Ythill as Tracker at all (as you'd see in the QT if you're interested), and instead was leaning toward zoraster if I am remembering correctly. On top of that, I did not understand the way the Vigilante was used in this game. I thought that could've been used more effectively. The RS was victim to a belligerent town, but it was also partly his own fault for having to out himself. All in all though, the PRs did not or were not able to serve their town. Bottom line. This wasn't all thanks to scum superiority either.

In any case, I would be hesistant to call the setup leaning one way or another. I really don't think that's a big issue. The delayed flips... I don't know, it's hard to make a judgment there. I think some people would jump at the chance to try that, and others would shy away from it. I don't think it's inherently a bad thing though. It's like cults. It alters the game signifcantly, but, you know, the case can be made that they just need to be handled properly. It's going to be very divisive though. I feel like if the town got a lot of the breaks that we got, the tune would be quite different here. I can understand the frustration it brings though, especially when you throw a lot of replacements into the mix. It's hard enough to ask people to go back one day, but to go back two days and recall exactly who put X on the guillotine is almost asking too much from the town (then again, that's why there are PRs).

2) It absolutely fits Open guidelines. Personally I believe that any setup fits Open guidelines as long as everything is made clear to ever player in the game. I saw no issue with anything in this setup.

3) Under the condition that the game was an invitational, then yes, I would. When you're playing with people who have no commitment to forum mafia, then the game suffers. Most games suffer when played with the general community for this reason, but it's especially painful in a setup like this.

You can PM her directly if you want to say something like "not only do I hate this setup, but I actively and passionately hate its designer".

Noted.

What worked well, what didn't work well? Did you like my votecounts? Were my activity requirements too harsh and bad for the game? Other criticisms? I'm looking to mod a newbie and then a Large Theme, so if I have bad moderating practices I'd like them pointed out immediately so I can rectify them.

You did fine as a Mod, hito. I felt bad that you were dealt such a crappy hand in regards to replacements, but I think you did the best anyone could to rectify the situation. You may have been a touch harsh around the time that Mae replaced in though. The activity requirements were fine. I had no issues with your style of Moderation. You even took care of the little nit-picky things that I could've complained about had they been an issue (e.g. listing who was one the guillotine, including the unvotes from wagons with strikethroughs, or addressing any questions about the setup in prompt fashion).

---

Scum outplayed the town here, gg. Was an..interesting read.

I agree with this with a couple of caveats so I don't come off sounding too arrogant.

1) By no means whatsoever do I take all of the credit. At most I take 33% of the credit here, but, honestly, I cannot emphasize how much Shadow Dancer ended up helping us out. I'd even go so far as to say I consider him the MVP of the scumteam. I'd like to think that some of what I said helped screw with the town, but the entire second half of my game was virtually based on what SD said or did. Just because he was lynched is no reason to think he didn't contribute in a huge way. Before he was lynched, both VV and I weren't looking the best amongst the town. For a long time I felt like I bit off more than I could chew with Glados and Fate both coming at me at one point. It was all very distressing until SD flipped. So, I mean, although it wasn't necessarily planned for SD to be the sacrifical lamb, he ended up helping so much after he flipped. Of course VV did wonderful as well. The man has more balls than I do. I wanted to choke him when he hammered SD, because I thought that was way too strong for a game with delayed flips. Sure enough, he had the long-term foresight that I was lacking. I rolled with the punches and prayed that I wouldn't be smacked down by the rest of the players in what would become my SD-fixation for the game there on out.

2) As already mentioned, the town's PRs, through a mix of our team, the town, and themselves on an individual level, did not aid the town here. Regardless as to who is ultimately to blame for each individual loss, that is a victory for the scum. Period.

---

You're essentially giving the scum three shots every night to shut down town power. You'd probably be better off with something closer to a mountainous setup, imo.

That's the beauty of the Tracker over a Cop though. For each power the scum uses, that's increasing the odds that Tracker will catch them. That first night, man, I was nervous as hell.

---

I have to say the scum played amazing, very nicely done to the both of you. I didn't manage to have a single strong scum-read alive however I had VP, GreyICE and Fate as for-sure town.

<3

SD really does deserve a great deal of credit though.

---

This guy

Ah, now I get it. XD

---

Next time let's not turn on eachother VP <3 ;_;

I saw it as a personal victory to get you two at each others throats.

[RedCoyote]