Open 308 - Gurgi EC8 - Game over!

[Korts]

/confirm

[Korts]

Why do you hate me so?

[Korts]

Before we get down to anything serious, let's agree to a pre-lynch hypocop claim by everyone.

[Korts]

What do you mean by that?

Do you mean "I will investigate X," from everyone, and then if that person dies and flips weak cop, it's likely they investigated scum?

But the scum nk throws a wrench in that plan.

That is exactly what I mean.

And no, the scum NK doesn't necessarily interfere. If there is more than one death during the night, that means that a weak cop has hit scum--it definitely helps the town if they know who the cop's target was. The only way it can be less than clear is if the dead are all cops. That would mean that one of them was NK'd--but that still doesn't mean that we shouldn't know who the others targeted.

[Korts]

Certainly the hypocop will not completely break the game in favor of the town; but it does enable us to use the role ability of the weak cop to a fuller extent. Obviously, no post-mortem guilty result should be taken for granted, but a hypocop system is the only way we'll have the result at all.

[Korts]

I agree with Empking. Not all possibilities need to be said.

[Korts]

Vote: Archaist

[Korts]

Khan has a point, Empking. That question seems to be just for clarification--since Amrun didn't answer, I don't see why you should drop the issue, regardless of whether you found other avenues of discussion in the meanwhile.

Anyone else find it weird when a question gets asked, then not answered, then it's not followed up by the asker?

I don't like the subtle suggestion instead of outright accusation. Why are you so interested in gauging others' reaction to your potential point?

[Korts]

Archaist, my problem isn't that you consider scum tactics, it's that you discuss them openly and in detail when it's not important to do so. The hypocop system is not invalidated by scum fakeclaiming gambits as long as the town takes the effort to analyse the situation. However, speculation about potential situations in the future is futile and a waste of space, and thus an easy way for scum to look like they're contributing when they're, in fact, not. And

that

is what I'm accusing you of.

[Korts]

Woops. Missed the whole of page 3 and 4.

VOTE: Amrun

That voting and unvoting of Archaist was terribly,

terribly

scummy. It's very much like you were expecting a hammer from your buddy--until Archaist came in warning against a quicklynch. Not to mention earlier using my point against Khan as a basis for a vote.

Also Archaist is officially town. No scum would act that openly stupid.

[Korts]

Why?

Nevermind. I don't remember the train of thought.

Archaist, we are not No Lynching. Certainly not on Day 1. That would not help the scumhunting effort at all. And we're certainly not going to play "follow the cop"; we are going to scumhunt.

Empking: why did you completely ignore the no lynch suggestion?

[Korts]

Khan, do you think that line of discussion with Empking is worth pursuing?

Korts, putting Archaist at L-1 was reckless of me. I got caught up in the moment,

trusting no one would hammer until it was time

, but when I thought about it, it was a bad move.

I believe this, with the exception of the struck out part. However, this explanation makes just as much sense, if not more, from scum perspective as from town.

As for the self-hammer, if forced to choose, I'd rather have fifty percent of the scumteam dead than the hypocop strategy successful. Self-hammering would not have made sense for scum in that situation, so your worry is unsubstantiated. Really, your whole post sounds phony.

Not worth mind or anyone else's time. It was never going to be acted upon.

That is not a constructive stance at all. If Archaist is town, we need him to do actual scumhunting and thus he needs to be dissuaded from making obvious tactical mistakes. If he's scum, his attempts at leading the town into a bad tactical decision should be stopped. Either way, ignoring such a suggestion is anti-town behavior.

[Korts]

Because a failure to do so implies tacit agreement or at least indifference, and might lead to some of the town siding with him on the issue.

[Korts]

How is claiming vanilla sneaky?

[Korts]

The way in which it was done, faking a misunderstanding of hypoclaiming to claim vanilla early for towncred (if it was scum), would be sneaky, not the vanilla claim in and of itself.

The misunderstanding can have been genuine without the claim being so.

[Korts]

Until I have time to re-read with special attention to Empking and Dbg, who is being especially absent, I will unvote.

Why mention DGB as an absentee, but not bv, who has been silent for three hours more than DGB according to the Activity Overview?

[Korts]

Amrun, have you played with DGB before? Are you familiar with her metagame?

I also wish to compare the number of posts bv and DGB made: bv's entire contribution to this game has been one single post not counting the confirmation, and that post contained an explicitly unsubstantiated vote and a support of the hypocop system without elaboration. Neither of those is particularly valuable to scumhunting. Meanwhile, DGB has made four posts and pressured Archaist multiple times on what I consider to be valid points.

What exactly do you feel is off in DGB's play, and what makes you think bv is acting town? To me, the opposite seems to be far more likely.

Everyone else: care to join me on this wagon?

predit: DGB's V/LA until the 24th.

[Korts]

the Achaist wagon seems to have eider belief in it

Huh? I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

[Korts]

Glad to see activity, however I won't have time to read up until tomorrow evening.

[Korts]

I was wrong, so very wrong, about DGB. There is no way a scum DGB makes that post. She had a perfect opportunity to give my wagon momentum and she did a 180 with it, and in fact made some very good points that led me to re-read the game and reach a similar conclusion.

VOTE: Oman

What are you talking about? That he questioned a town read is not a good point against Oman at all--Oman had a valid reason to do so. Actually, there

are

reasons for a scum DGB to make a post like that in the face of an Amrun wagon. And there

are

reasons for you to blindly follow her moments after you having voiced suspicion on her for being inactive in an uncharacteristic way. And those reasons are the reasons I'm asking the rest of the town to hop on your wagon.

For the record, I'm somewhat against the notion of town unity that DGB and Amrun are pushing. It's not all that hard for scum to get on some townies' good side in the early game, and if there isn't a healthy amount of paranoia in the players--especially in early game--scum can easily go under the radar to LYLO.

Khan makes a compelling case. I can see your point on Oman, I guess.

Question to the whole town: does anyone have metagame data on Amrun?

bv: fucking post already, or ask for replacement or something. This shit will not stand.

Korts: where do you fall on Archaist?

Somewhat leaning town. I appreciated his questioning Khan--seems like an honest attempt at constructive posting, barring an Oman-Archaist scumteam.

[Korts]

If you agree with Oman and think that I was making a dangerous, lasting-until-gamend townread, then I don't know what to say to you.y

That's not what Oman said at all. He didn't see Archaist as town, and you stated that you did, based on the claim--if he strongly disagreed with you at that point, I think it's justified that he asked the questions that he did. Go back and reread the exchange, I think you're overly demonizing Oman here.

[Korts]

Uh, that last post needs some clarification. Oman didn't claim that you were making a "dangerous, lasting-until-gamend townread". The questions he asked were designed to find out

whether

you were making such a read.

[Korts]

I'm going to investigate DrippingGoofball. That last vote on Cyberbob is really weird and unconstructive.

[Korts]

So do you think Oman's question was valid or do you think Kublai Khan's case is more so?

Oman's initial question was valid. And I didn't say I agreed with Khan's case--what I said is that he makes a compelling case that's easy to follow, the difference being that I hadn't decided yet whether I agree or not. For the record, I

do

find Oman somewhat suspicious, but not for what Khan says. I agree with Cyberbob here: Oman's reaction to the attacks against him was disproportionately passionate and verbose.

Also, you say some paranoia is healthy, but I got attacked over "trying to instill paranoia" early on.

Uh, that was Empking. My point was rather that while it's good to explore multiple sides of an argument, sometimes it's best not to publicly discuss all the points--ironically, because paranoid as I am, I don't like giving the scum ideas.

If you're against the town unity path, then are you saying that any buddying attempts or voicing town reads are suspect?

Buddying attempts, absolutely suspicious. The town's duty is not to be friends with each other, but to lynch scum. I'm also usually against voicing town reads, but that's not scummy, just borderline anti-town.

[Korts]

Deadline: Sunday, June 5th, 2011 at 10pm UK time.

April?

Mod Edit: I have no idea what you're talking about...

[Korts]

I'm not willing to go into major speculation regarding relationships. I can see multiple potential scum pairs, including you and Oman, but until the first scum is revealed, I'm not going to be able to be sure about any connections.

[Korts]

I think you are scum. I find Oman suspicious. I also find DGB suspicious. You can't all be scum. Stop trying to portray me as indecisive, I've taken a clear stance on your lynch at the very least.

[Korts]

My reasons for suspecting DGB: 1) the initial attack on Oman was unwarranted and its execution weird--it was way overboard, and the conclusions DGB drew were way harsher than any interpretation of the reference material would allow; 2) the Cyberbob vote was completely unnecessary and unhelpful.

Khan: as I said, I'm not looking for scum pairs at the moment, but if I were, I'd be looking at Amrun/DGB. As my vote shows, I'd much rather lynch Amrun at this point.

[Korts]

Again, Amrun, you're deliberately distorting my words. I never said I had a considerable case against DGB, I simply said that I was suspicious of her. You asked for my reasons, I gave them--no, they aren't strong reasons, but they're there nonetheless. If you note my post 162, I call you scummy, while I call Oman and DGB suspicious, meaning that I'm not nearly as sure about them.

Even worse than his all-of-asudden DGB suspicion is Korts' flip flop on pairings despite claiming to hold no stock in them, especially since there are only two scum here. In other words, it is not possible for both an Amrun-Oman pairing and a DGB-Amrun pairing to exist. When the only content between this switch iss asking, "Why are you supicious of DGB" then this becomes quite fishy.

I said I'm not comfortable openly speculating on scumteams at this point, but Khan asked me to consider the likelihood of an Amrun/DGB team, and I replied appropriately. Yes, my list of individual suspicions goes Amrun>Oman>DGB, but considering the implications of DGB's attack on Oman in light of the Amrun case, I think an Amrun/DGB team is much more plausible than an Amrun/Oman one.

[Korts]

I also think that for someone not looking for scum pairs right now, you seem to be focused on figuring out who is most tied to Amrun.

Uh, every time I talked about pairings, I answered a direct question or clarified a misunderstood point. My suspicions are individually established.

Anyway, I went back to reread the game to see if I do indeed have confirmation bias against Amrun.

The early L-1 on Archaist has basically no substantive reasoning behind it--"sowing the seeds of dissention", really? The Archaist case was pretty minimal at that point, but Amrun seemed prepared to go through with a lynch, until a hasty unvote two posts later warning against a quickhammer and, strangely, a self-hammer, the latter of which doesn't make sense and seems like a completely made-up reason. This vote-and-unvote is very strange and scummy overall.

That said, the frustration over Archaist's misunderstanding does seem genuine, which I didn't really consider the first time around.

Other points of interest uncovered by a reread: Oman questions Archaist's town read far before he (IMO rightly) questions Amrun's, and though this tendency fits his professed philosophy, Archaist's read at least was well-reasoned for that game state, and the way Oman jumped on it is suspect.

Still, DGB's case focuses on the questioning of Amrun's read, which I think was valid, making DGB's case bullcrap. The interactions between Amrun and DGB still seem weird.

Post 127 by Khan rubs me the wrong way. Point 2) is patently disgusting in making distinctions that Oman didn't orginially make. Point 5) however is still pretty compelling, even if that is an unnecessarily complicated plan for scum to go through with.

tl;dr: I'd be comfortable lynching any of Amrun, Oman or DGB, and will be keeping a closer eye on Khan.

[Korts]

You're still my first choice, and you don't have any authority over my vote.

[Korts]

That isn't what your post said. Backtrack noted.

Being comfortable with any of the three lynches doesn't mean I don't have preferences.

[Korts]

Seriously, is noone seeing how opportunistic Amrun is being?

DGB: Oman asks a fair question.

Korts: You said you noticed some towny things about me. You hadn't ntoiced before, and some scummy things about Oman you didn't notice before. That changes nothing?

It changes my invididual levels of suspicion on you and Oman respectively. It doesn't change the order of preference.

[You] are now backpedaling away from thinking [Oman] scum.

Where did I ever do that? I'm just voting Amrun over him--although if I have do vote him in order to avoid being lynched, I guess I'll have to do that.

[Korts]

I would like to draw attention to how hard Amrun is campaigning for my lynch. The manipulation in asking everyone one by one whether they would join my wagon is hardly veiled at this point.

[Korts]

We have four more days to decide, that's still a reasonable amount of time.

And I am willing to compromise if an Oman or a DGB wagon presents itself. It seems I don't have a majority agreeing with me on your scumminess.

[Korts]

Actually, I don't want to lynch Oman anymore. If here were scum, I'd be dead by now.

So, anyone care to join me on the Amrun wagon, or start a DGB wagon perhaps?

[Korts]

Actually, I don't want to lynch Oman anymore. If here were scum, I'd be dead by now.

So, anyone care to join me on the Amrun wagon, or start a DGB wagon perhaps?

Predictable turnaround is predictable.

Hey, I realized it's the sensible thing to do. Consider it from my perspective--I know I'm town, and Oman hasn't hammered me when he had the opportunity to do so.

[Korts]

DGB, in case you're town despite all my suspicions, I challenge you to stop frothing at the mouth for a second and reconsider my case from the top.

[Korts]

That's unnecessarily twisted logic for scum. Oman wouldn't have any reason to worry about being investigated for the hammer. I realize that for better or worse, I have an acceptably strong case against me, and Oman couldn't be blamed if he decided to give my wagon the final push.

[Korts]

Looks like I'm going to be lynched. Just remember, Amrun is scum.

[Korts]

VOTE: Oman

Sorry, mate, self-preservation instincts kicking in.

[Korts]

VOTE: Oman

Sorry, mate, self-preservation instincts kicking in.

Understood, but I think you're being defeatist about it: why not vote for scum?

I think it's pretty clear that an Amrun lynch isn't happening, and I haven't seen much support for a DGB wagon; yours is pretty much the only lynch other than mine that is happening today.

[Korts]

Let's get this out of the way.

VOTE: Korts

[Korts]

Great job, DGB. I was a bit scared you'd be taken as far too over the top, but it was a marvellous performance.

We really should've lynched Amrun, then I wouldn't have had to die like that.

[Korts]

Also, good game, town. I agree with DGB, I feel terrible about having had to lie like that, but it's in my job description to mislead and kill you. I hope you can forgive me so we can move on.