Open 309 - Fire and Ice [Game Over]

[Alduskkel]

1. A bit (a few months?) longer than what appears as my join date.
2. With the possible exception of next week (finals), frequently. But it's very dependent on the game's pace.
3. Nope.

[Alduskkel]

Vote: Nikanor

[Alduskkel]

Unvote, Vote: YoYoGuy435

.

Scum think more about "does this look scummy?" Plus, preemptively calling out your own scumminess doesn't change the fact that it's still scummy (though I do put much stock into the 3rd vote = scummy tell) and to me the subtext here is "If I'm pointing out my scumminess, it's not scummy anymore." Also, what Amor said.

YoYoGuy, how strong do you consider the 3rd vote = scummy tell?

@projectmatt You never explained why you don't value your reads highly.

@Hiraki: What is scummy about his explanations? Why call his vibe town but then immediately state that that's false?

[Alduskkel]

So Hiraki, are you just against explaining or are you against explaining

everything

? How is it like cheating? How does it "confirm [him] to be scum"?
Also, answer the question that I very specifically addressed to you in my previous post.

[Alduskkel]

I apologize for a lack of activity, but as I mentioned before finals are this week for me. Last one is tomorrow, so you should see an increase in activity from me quite soon.

Opinions:
Hiraki and Robocopter bandwagons are

both

pretty terrible at the moment. Hiraki's will only be even potentially justified after we see his wall. I see a lot of misrepresentation of what he said: he doesn't want everything explained, but obviously some things have to be explained. Looking at YoYoGuy here. I perfectly understand not wanting to do a wall if you're a lazy player (and I suspect Hiraki is one of those, no offense) and not doing it within 3 days or whatever is not a scum tell, so Toro's vote is ridiculous too.

Robocopter's votes are generically bad, lacking explanation or at best just saying he's panicky and forcing posts (projectmatt). Well, what makes you say that?

The only decent vote is LadyHaHa's, but I'm not convinced.

Obviously not all the people on those wagons are scum.

Who do I specifically suspect? Well, I've got my eye on everyone on those two wagons except LHH. However, in particular YYG stands out for reasons I've already gone over, but he voted early so he didn't bandwagon. Although, a Hiraki bandwagon would not be hard for a competent Mafioso to predict.

silavor is rather hilariously and scummily following what Robocopter said he would do, i.e., change the subject and not explain himself. Isos 8-10 all fail to address Robocopter.

So I will

Unvote, Vote: silavor

.

As for buddies: Much like LHH I don't look for buddies until we've got dead scum, unless something really obvious is going on before that.

[Alduskkel]

I don't consider the 3rd vote = scummy tell very strong but, the reason why I pointed it out is because there was a previous match that I had been called out on this tell. That's the only reason why I even acknowledged that as a tell.

Can you link me to the game where this happened? Were you scum or town in that game?

Overall impression of the wall in 159: Great post... if I wanted a summary of the game. I've basically read all that stuff already, how about telling us what you think about that stuff?

Respond to 182: Yeah, that quoted stuff is analysis. Why post anything BUT that stuff, then? Compare the length of the quotes and the entirety of 159 and you'll see that 159 is mostly filler.

also ald: what makes the robo wagon terrible?

What I said in my previous post. Most of the time the votes for him (my apologies for my poor wording last time -- I wrote "Robocopter's votes") are without explanation. For more detail just go back to that post.

@silavor: Why are the quotes in your iso post 7 out of order?

Spoke too soon. This is townhunting and lurkerhunting wrapped in a bow of AtE and WIFOM. Yummy. You know who loves to townhunt and lurkerhunt? SCUM!

What makes you say scum like to townhunt and lurkerhunt? If someone is actively lurking, that's scummy. If you can find the scum by PoE with townhunting, go ahead. They're both things that I can easily see town doing.

That said, silavor, you are perfectly right that Robocopter has not scumhunted (with the exception of calling you scum), and that is of course scummy.* Which reminds me that in Robocopter's iso 11 he says he can defend and be accused of not scum hunting or ignore it and be accused of deflection, which is a false dichotomy. It's certainly possible to scumhunt

and

defend at the same time. In fact, if you're being attacked that is precisely what you should do.

*Asterisk: Except then I read what Amor said here.

In this setup scum do have a motivation for scumhunting -- they want to ferret out the other scumteam.

Fuck. It's not scummy then. It's just bad play.

RVS is a stage where everyone is supposed to be cheerful, and not serious.

Hey. Let's take an example where Robo flipped town, and he was in RVS!

viewtopic.php?p=2707806#p2707806

Compare that to this. Robo is cheerful, and flips town. There is a distinct difference in the attitudes here and there.

This is really weak meta. That game was months ago. Meta is only useful for looking at general trends in playstyle.

Amor, I didn't think I'd actually have to point this out... It's kinda obvious.

3. It is my legal obligation to play to my win condition. And as such, my answer is No.

This is reasoning.

Quoting the post you think is scummy but not analyzing it is not reasoning.

2. You are against explaining everything in a game where you are supposed to provide an argument against people in order to lynch scum. Do you even realize how totally outrageous you sound?

The key word was everything, but now I'm going to go against that for a moment just to get rid of you. That makes you special!

This is a small scumtell, while this point is overly null due to the misinterpretation of my post, but lynch "scum" sounds awkward. I don't see it being major, but I could see scumRobo changing his post to say scum rather than people out of fear of him being criticized. But that's taking it a bit too far for even my standards.

If it's taking it too far, why did you post it?

I am done.

I am done.

This is complete scummy bullshit. You want explanations so you can rip them apart. You ask and ask and complain. Then you get not one, but TWO walls all for you. Then you won't answer them.

I'm done trying to defend against your arguments. You both are too stubborn to listen.

Even if that were true, why don't you try and convince everyone else on your wagon that their arguments are wrong? That's just pro-town. Giving up is incredibly anti-town.

Also I had something written down in my defense that I want to say. The punctuation thing. It really is just how I type. You'll chalk it up to whatever. But Its just my style. Meta. Whatever.

Link, please.

Sorry for the Mastinic "long wall of quote-reply-quote-reply" post, although fun fact I did influence his playstyle (but let's not get into that).

Robocopter87, you say your defense won't make a difference. But I'll tell you now that I am considering voting you, and will if you just sit there and whine about how no one gets it. But consider me a non-stubborn person suspicious of you. If for no one else, try and convince me that you're not scum.

So get off your ass and defend yourself. Look at it this way, either way you're playing towards your win condition (if you really need me to phrase it that way).

[Alduskkel]

By the way, Robocopter is at L-1 I believe. So let's not hammer yet.

Seriously Robocopter, you have 6 votes but silavor and Hiraki are only 2 people. What, do you think those other 4 are equally stubborn?

[Alduskkel]

Look, I fought the arguments before. They were denied. The same arguments were repeated in the Walls except for a few choice things. But mainly it was the same stuff all game. If I defended against it once, there really is no point in retyping it. If you want my defense, go back and look through my posts.

There is no use in reiterating what I have said.

If that's true, quote what's repeated.

Oh, and to whoever asked, the quotes from that post of mine are out of order for artistic flair, and to point out how completely invalid Robo's accusation was. The exact order of what was said doesn't matter for the point I was trying to make with that post.

Artistic flair? Excuse me? You don't mess with chronology for "artistic flair." If you didn't do it for any reason then my response is WTF. But if you had a reason -- as you state here -- then that's scummy, since if I'm understanding you correctly that means that you wanted to exaggerate how invalid Robocopter's accusation was.

I was looking over the thread and I figured I'd go ahead and bring this to everyones attention. After I pointed out Hiraki and Toro's buddying on page 2 they stopped talking to each other about anything. I'm not sure if this means anything but I figured I'd point it out just in case it does mean something.

Wat. Okay, um... That's just fucking STUPID. Screw reading the rest of the game before voting, I'm satisfied enough to do it now. VOTE: YoYo

Stupidity isn't a scum tell.

I apologize for a lack of activity, but as I mentioned before finals are this week for me. Last one is tomorrow, so you should see an increase in activity from me quite soon.

Opinions:
Hiraki and Robocopter bandwagons are

both

pretty terrible at the moment. Hiraki's will only be even potentially justified after we see his wall. I see a lot of misrepresentation of what he said: he doesn't want everything explained, but obviously some things have to be explained. Looking at YoYoGuy here. I perfectly understand not wanting to do a wall if you're a lazy player (and I suspect Hiraki is one of those, no offense) and not doing it within 3 days or whatever is not a scum tell, so Toro's vote is ridiculous too.

Robocopter's votes are generically bad, lacking explanation or at best just saying he's panicky and forcing posts (projectmatt). Well, what makes you say that?

The only decent vote is LadyHaHa's, but I'm not convinced.

Obviously not all the people on those wagons are scum.

Who do I specifically suspect? Well, I've got my eye on everyone on those two wagons except LHH. However, in particular YYG stands out for reasons I've already gone over, but he voted early so he didn't bandwagon. Although, a Hiraki bandwagon would not be hard for a competent Mafioso to predict.

silavor is rather hilariously and scummily following what Robocopter said he would do, i.e., change the subject and not explain himself. Isos 8-10 all fail to address Robocopter.

So I will

Unvote, Vote: silavor

.

As for buddies: Much like LHH I don't look for buddies until we've got dead scum, unless something really obvious is going on before that.

Town.

Why is this post town? Why even bother noting it?

With that being said, I don't really think that my post could really legitimately be considered IIoA, being as there actually was analysis amongst all the information.

So basically you made three points of your own in a wall of other peoples' points. Why not just write those points without all the filler? Oh yeah, because you wanted to look townie by posting a wall.

2. This is exactly what I was about to post. To me the "wall" you made is basically "he said this, she said that, she said this, he said that". It has no information at all, and if you found some specific posts scummy, why didn't you point them out?

Yes, let's all repeat what I've said before while acting like it's a crazy new idea.

General Thoughts on People Giving Town Reads:

Town reads with reasoning are fine, more info for the town and scum themselves can usually see who thinks who is town anyway. But town reads

without

reasoning can essentially only help scum.

Now tell me, what's wrong with only focusing on one person at a time? I only have one vote, it's not like I can lynch multiple people in a day. Moreover, finding connections between people doesn't work that well if no one's flipped yet. What was the point of this exercise exactly?

tunnel tunnel tunnel

I've accused Meh of White Knighting, not because he's voting and putting pressure on me instead of Robo, but rather because I see him defending Robo with absolutely no evidence to suggest that he isn't scum.

In general though, people are innocent until proven guilty. So if I have evidence that someone isn't town or is scum, that's fine. But if I can't find evidence that someone is town or isn't scum, I'm not going to vote for them.

SECOND WIND?

FUCK.

THIS MEANS HE CAN'T BE SCUM.

UNVOTE
---
EWBOP:

AND BEFORE SOMEONE GOES ON AND SAYS, "lol Hiraki he's trying to screw wit u"

SHOW ME ANOTHER GAME WHERE SOMEONE HAS GIVEN UP, AND LATER TRIED TO STAND UP FOR THEMSELVES, AND WAS STILL SCUM.

I DARE YOU.

Excuse me? He hasn't even addressed your wall.

Big bottom line to this post: Robocopter still needs to address those walls, even if it is to quote a part and then quote something that says the same thing that he's responded to.

I will hammer Robocopter if that doesn't happen.

[Alduskkel]

General Thoughts on People Giving Town Reads: Town reads with reasoning are fine, more info for the town and scum themselves can usually see who thinks who is town anyway. But town reads without reasoning can essentially only help scum.

I for one like unbacked up town reads because they make a player more transparent and easy to read.

Why?

[Alduskkel]

Alduskkel, have you even read the post in question? The only quotes "out of order" are the last two, and given that they're rereplying to Robo's idiocy they're not really "out of order" at all. Note that the final quote is actually copied from further up in that very same post, where it actually did occur in the timeline. There's nothing wrong with that post, now stop being lulzy and hammer. Why nikanor wants to delay this lynch is beyond me.

It's just really weird of you to put things out of order, and I don't see a potential town motivation.

And why the rush? If I hammer I'll hammer when I'm good and ready. If you think I'll let the day slide into a no lynch you're wrong. But for now I'd rather see if Robocopter will actually respond to the walls, and if it'll be a good response.

i WOULD imagine 1 or 2 people would be with me but i had to be sure that either A) a clumsy hammer wouldn't happen

I couldn't possibly imagine a whole mudslide of votes going onto Hiraki, so I disagree with you that we would've had

7

votes on Hiraki by then. Whoever hammered would have to be a complete moron.

or B) there WAS GOING to be enough pressure on the wagon. also would "encourage" hiraki to complete his task though in hindsight it could have affected the quality of the wall. but eh, none-the-less he delivered and none of that happened so... yeah.

But what troubles me is that you're asking for more votes on Hiraki when he already had

3

votes on him at the time, that's enough to be considered a pressure wagon to me. And if you added your vote we would've been at L-3, and that's a decent sized pressure wagon. So why call for further votes? It seems like you're wishing to have gotten as many votes on Hiraki as possible, potentially creating a situation where an accidental hammer could occur.

So Toro, first you say that whoever might have hammered Hiraki would have had to be a moron and that you couldn't possibly imagine a bunch of votes accumulating. But then you bring up the possibility of an accidental hammer. Am I missing something here, or do these two sentiments not mesh?

BTW Robocopter's NEXT post better be a response to the walls or I will hammer.

[Alduskkel]

Vote: Hiraki

L-2
Why? Hiraki said he wanted to give Robocopter until Friday. Someone else was thinking Thursday, but then Hiraki said no, he figured it should be Friday. Hiraki turns around and hammers Robocopter saying he really meant Thursday.

I call bullshit. ZERO Town motivation here. Whereas scum Hiraki will want to hammer basically anyone who isn't on his team.

Let me give you the narration here: Scum Hiraki goes for a lynch on Robocopter, but backs off because he thinks he might not be scum. Robocopter fails to produce adequate defense and Hiraki now goes back to being suspicious. Impatient, he thinks "FUCK IT" (and don't tell me you can't imagine Hiraki literally doing this) and hammers anyway, but can't explain his inconsistency.
---
@Nikanor: Why is Toro's case bad? Why is having a bad case equal to being scum?
My problem is that you're aware of the oddities that having multiple scum groups creates, but ignore the fact that terrible cases should be nulltells since both scum and town have motivation to build up strong cases against scum.
---
There's a tidbit of information in YoYoGuy's final post (410). It's likely he did not intentionally breadcrumb his role as a Doctor.

Finally, no one noticed only one nightkill? Either a scumteam nokilled (unlikely; little motivation for that here), YoYoGuy successfully protected (perhaps), or scum hit scum (most likely).

So if someone seems pretty convinced that someone else is scum for no good reason, that person might themselves be scum.

[Alduskkel]

Mafia are NK immune people. Get it right, this is an open game.

I THINK Kcdaspot's "scumminess" can be attributed to his playstyle. Recent town meta

Hiraki, are you going to address the votes against you at all? A defense, maybe?

[Alduskkel]

What??? The old version of the wiki page of the setup notes that they are NK immune. Did this change?

@Mod: Mafia

are

NK immune, right?

[Alduskkel]

PM'd farside. Especially since I'm going to be modding a Fire and Ice.

[Alduskkel]

So... no-kill or Doctor protection. Probably the latter.

[Alduskkel]

Sorry, I figured green text = town, so that's why I thought you were town in that game, Kcda.

In that case, can you link me to your most recent completed town game?

[Alduskkel]

FINE. I will let Hiraki slide for now, if only because grabbing on to one player for one mistake is basically tunneling.

Vote: Empking

. L-1. I think he's just voting all over the place to see if something will stick.

[Alduskkel]

Hey, don't replace me. I should have a post up reasonably soon (within 24 hours or so).

[Alduskkel]

Sorry, but I've requested replacement. Basically I kept thinking I had enough time for this game when, in fact, I didn't.

So, yeah... again, sorry.