Open 424: Jungle Republic (Game Over)

[BK201]

VOTE: Rainbowdash

For being wolf first draw.

[BK201]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Scigatt

[BK201]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Scigatt

Justification? Reasoning?

Maybe.

[BK201]

Umbrage, why did you specify that venmar and yellow are wolves?

[BK201]

^ Its clear you think something is scummy, but why do you think they are wolves without the mention of mafia?

[BK201]

^ Its clear you think something is scummy, but why do you think they are wolves without the mention of mafia?

Directed at Umbrage.

[BK201]

I'm of the opinion that drm is always town.

bbl

[BK201]

I know I've not been paying attention to this game, I'll correct that soon.

[BK201]

Malakittens is scum. Venmar is probably scum.

VOTE: Venmar

Was about to start my read-through, but first I have to say this doesn't add up.

[BK201]

My thoughts:

yellowbounder's alignment is different from the last game. Not sure what that means.

So life got busy yesterday. Restarting my read through and this jumped at me.

Umbrage knew YB's alignment last game?
-Considering its a 3 faction game, that means Umbrage had to be either wolf or mafia with YB.
Umbrage knows YB's alignment is different now?
-That means Umbrage is the same alignment as first draw.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Umbrage

gonna continue to read obviously, but wow

[BK201]

Timezone?
Favourite faction to be in this game?
Who would you like to be mafia with?

1) Pacific
2) Town
3) I am not going to answer this one because I think i see your smart trick behind this question Vijay. Because there are two mafias, both with different amount of partners. The amount of partners someone mentions could hint something. Sneaky little Vijay.

What possible town motivation is there to warn the scum factions?

[BK201]

What do you mean "warn the scum factions"?
I thought he was just verbally pointing out how he wasn't going to make any slips about how many people he'd like to be mafia with.

Town-slips are not a bad thing for town. Only scum are concerned about slips.

1.town-Venmar disarmed the trap for scum, which doesnt make sense
or
2. scum-Venmar warned his buddies, which makes sense.

[BK201]

btw I didn't even notice the trap until he pointed it out. The better the trap, the more reason to warn your partner(s).

Back to basics though, there is no town motivation to disarm a trap for scum.

[BK201]

Spoiler:

Venmar's not answering the question number 3 is scummy of him.
There is a sneaky little trick there alright, but it's designed for Scums. Why even say that there's trick to it to warn Scums if you were Town?

Malakitten's "Don't call me Lurker" argument is stupid. You are a lurker player in general.

VOTE: Venmar

Ha, I knew me changing scum to mafia would trip somebody who figured it out up. I got this from the previous Jungle Republic. There is no town intent to exposing it, and the fact that he goes "there are two factions" when I explicitly state mafia shows he has obviously read the past game and thought he had bypassed a trap.

Agreed.

OK, Rainbowdash is now a full scum read of mine. You're not even trying to justify vijay's shitty "tell". It takes ZERO effort for scum to fake that and gives ZERO help to town. Considering that's the only noteworthy thing he's done all day, I am less than impressed, and disappointed in how easily you trust him.

Coming up with some insane maybe trap like that is far more likely to come from a town mindset than a scum mindset. Im not saying it was a good 'trap' or whatever, but that doesnt make it less likely to come from town.

I've played 3 games with Vjay, 2 he was scum 1 he was town. As town he set up a trap for scum by false-claiming a faith healer. This lowered the chances of scum NKing the 2 real faith healers who also claimed. As scum he didn't set up traps for scum.

PreEdit: Umbrage, what different behaivor?

[BK201]

Alright, Umbrage. I can see how you might think that as town, or scum hunting the other scum. You'd have to be space cadet to scumslip like that, but hey I don't know you and I don't get the impression you have the greatest reputation.(no offense)
UNVOTE:

VOTE: Venmar

That's L-1.

Sorry man, we're friends but you seem very scummy this game.

[BK201]

Yeah Venmar is still probably town.

Explain, please.

[BK201]

Rainbow, whats the town motivation behind disarming a trap for scum?

[BK201]

Why is it a stupid trap? Why should town disarm a stupid trap meant for scum?

Its also my gut. I know Venmar and I'm not sure about the vibe I'm getting from him.

[BK201]

Venmar, were you scum?

[BK201]

Thanks, wolf!

I was going to vote rainbow off the bat because he looked like Venmar's partner.

[BK201]

@BK201 - Same question to you. You made multiple posts during the Venmar wagon but didn't mention it until you dropped the L-1 vote on (i.e., a time when a scumbuddy would realize it's a lost cause.)

I had thought that Umbrage scumslipped.

[BK201]

@PM - No way is a WW kill

ever

going to be better than a lynch. Period. If the Seer has a guilty on a WW, he should claim it NOW!

Agreed. If we lynch the WW then we turn this into a nightless game. Really no reason at all to let a suspected WW live.

Thanks, wolf!

I was going to vote rainbow off the bat because he looked like Venmar's partner.

This sounds a bit fake to me.

I really was going to vote rainbow right away. When Venmar flipped wolf rainbow was my first thought.

[BK201]

Come on guys, I'm making a deal with all of you. If you do lynch me, what will do about the Mafia? The Werewolves and the Town have a common enemy. I am not the werewolf you are looking for, but the Mafia is a bigger threat. I promise I am helping you more than hurting you. That's a promise I will keep until my game ends.

Hello wolfy . I'm down to have you work as a Town Vig. Realistically it doesn't improve our odds of winning but it does give us a double lynch per day.

[BK201]

Plus I would feel bad lynching you after you made a deal with us. I know its a game and AtE doesn't matter but still.

[BK201]

Was this thread locked just now?

[BK201]

Commencing re-read.

[BK201]

Hey don't wave that finger at me. I know its actually best to lynch PM and turn this into nightless, but I think double day lynching is more fun.

[BK201]

Wait why the hell are you FoSing me if you're not voting PM? Explain.

[BK201]

Optimally the best strategy is to lynch PM, turn this into a Nightless game, and have the Seer claim afterwords.

The game would then be 1 confirmed seer 6 unconfirmed town and 3 scum with no NK.

Double day lynching is just awesome though, thoughts?

[BK201]

On second thought,
I can tell PM is a cool dude but we need to turn this into a Nightless game. We get more information from official votes than we do from people talking about who PM should kill.

Sorry PM, and I feel for ya losing Venmar in a day 1 quicklynch.

VOTE: PMysterious

[BK201]

Keeping PM around is actually kind of cruel, it keeps his hopes up when there is no way a claimed wolf can win this.

Mafia have daytalk in this game. I replaced into the last Jungle Republic and it was nightless once the wolves were lynched.

[BK201]

I know he hasn't technically claimed, just to be clear. But I think it is pretty implied by the wording.

[BK201]

Why the fuck would you get mod killed. Just claim PM..

he indirectly has, there's no need for him to say the words "I claim wolf" or "Claim: Wolf".

[BK201]

I've never seen someone get modkilled for claiming scum. There's nothing that says it can't be used as some sort of super AtE strategy, etc etc.

[BK201]

Technically making the deal is not playing against your win con. Most likely though you would have been lynched at some point.

[BK201]

What I mean is I'd classify it as a gambit, abet low chance at success gambit but still a gambit.

[BK201]

anyways need moar votes on PM.

[BK201]

So what was that about this turning "Nightless" BK? At least you are Town.
So, Mala-Yellow-the 3rd man. Right?
VOTE: Mala

I could have sworn if the wolves were dead then the game became Nightless since mafia have daytalk. I realize I was wrong now obviously. ---Also I realize I'm doing something that annoys me when others do it, either real or feigned ignorance of mechanics scum would know for sure, I hate that. I can blame my ignorance on my only other experience with this set-up(open387) where I replaced in during the Day and there were 2 scum left, we lynched 1 that same day so it became Nightless.

Also want to say I'm not CCing Seer.
And I'll figure out who is scum after some Welcome to the NHK.

[BK201]

I'd rather suffer the Night phases than give mafia the power to coordinate during the Day.

[BK201]

In other words I'll sacrifice convenience for lower difficulty :p

[BK201]

Toying with PM? Yeah ok. If I was toying with him (which is fucked up) I would have ultimately decided to keep him around (which is cruel since he couldn't win at that point).

[BK201]

And I was surprised he did that, he did AtE me a little.

[BK201]

9 alive. 1 confirmed seer (unless counter-claimed, but I doubt it).

All 3 scum are among these 7. (If you're town, then simply replace your name for mine and the list should be true for you.)

Crazy - I remember I had a strong town read on him but I don't know why.
drmyshotgun - Slight town read, not really sure.
Konowa
Pysche

Scigatt

Umbrage
vijay2vasandani
yellowbounder

We only have 2 miss-lynches though.

commencing re-read.

[BK201]

Crazy

-pretty sure is town
----------------------

Drm

-townish
----------------------

Scigatt

/Psyche

-has been waffling hard.
----------------------

Konowa

-This is scummy. Crazy votes me and Konowa sets himself up to vote me but doesn't commit to anything.
----------------------

Yellowbounder

- I agree with this.
- If Yellowbounder is scum I bet Umbrage is too. Weak bus from Umbrage. Also agree with this and this.
---------------------

Umbrage

- Maybe town. He thought Rainbow and Mala were scum though. Also thought PM was town(not sure on that one, too lazy to look)
- If YB is scum I'm voting Umbrage.
---------------------

Vjay

- Maybe town for the trap. Thats all he's done though.

Really all I need is my 2 near confirmed town from this list + Mala. That makes 4 town (including myself) therefor PoEing the scum since we can survive 2 miss-lynches. I'd still like to scumhunt but I really don't see Crazy or Drm as anything but town right now.

VOTE: Yellowbounder

[BK201]

Toying with PM? Yeah ok. If I was toying with him (which is fucked up) I would have ultimately decided to keep him around (which is cruel since he couldn't win at that point).

But you didn't. Which is why you were screwing around. You were THRILLED you had got the last WW. Town wouldn't be thrilled, a mafia lynch would've been better. But you wanted the WW lynch. Now that the threat is gone you're trying to take over, as opposed to your near lurking D1, when the wolves were alive and getting killed was a major threat.

Yeah I was thrilled we found both wolves in the first 2 days. How the fuck would a mafia lynch be better? What town goes "Oh man we found a wolf, darn." Also, there's a thing call real-life, I was inactive in most of my games during that time not just this one.

[BK201]

Once again you're wrong in your read. Wrong about Rainbow, Mala, and PM(or was it Venmar? idk). Now me, are you really wrong about most of your reads or are you scum?

[BK201]

Yeah it was PM, you were right about Venmar.

[BK201]

Lol wow. People make mistakes man, sorry.

[BK201]

That really was my bad.

[BK201]

I was wrong to say Umbrage is suspicious for being wrong a bunch in his reads since I was too, but I want to clarify that YB+Umbrage still makes a lot of sense.

[BK201]

Hell even in his last post it makes sense. He threw in the possibility that I'm bussing YB, in other words him thinking about YB flipping scum. There's a lot of weak bussing/distancing between them.

[BK201]

Any excuse not to vote YB.

[BK201]

I love it when people act like their mad so they can seem genuine. You're not actually that mad.

[BK201]

they're*

[BK201]

Also Umbrage your case hinges on the fact I didn't bring up YB before.

Lets see here, Day 1 I was not very active in most of my games. I was right about Venmar being scum though. Day 2 wolf basically claims. Day 3, re-read the entire thread and I formed new reads. Hard to believe, huh?

[BK201]

Any excuse not to vote YB.

1.

NICE TRY

YOU'RE NOT GONNA THREATEN ME INTO HAMMERING

I WAS ON YB BEFORE YOU ARE

AND I DON'T GIVE IN TO SCUM DEMANDS

DEAL WITH IT

I love it when people act like their mad so they can seem genuine. You're not actually that mad.

2.

MAD?
HELL NO I'M HAVING A BLAST

THINGS ARE HEATING UP NOW

Also Umbrage your case hinges on the fact I didn't bring up YB before.

Lets see here, Day 1 I was not very active in most of my games. I was right about Venmar being scum though. Day 2 wolf basically claims. Day 3, re-read the entire thread and I formed new reads. Hard to believe, huh?

3.

OH I BELIEVE YOU WERE WOLF HUNTING ALRIGHT

1.

Ok.

2.

Ok.

3.

Show me

what led you to believe I was wolf-hunting rather than scum-hunting Day 1. Day 2 I didn't even get a chance to properly scum-hunt before PM offered us a deal.

[BK201]

This is good. Another scummy read doing anything to avoid lynching YB.

[BK201]

I highly doubt he read the thread in an hour.

[BK201]

Read *well*

[BK201]

Well enough to know that 368 is the same white noise that Venmar tried to push and that you just failed at a weak strawman.

Oh yeah? Do tell.

[BK201]

I do not understand why people are calling Umbrage town or scum for his “outrage” post. That fact that he admits he knows his own meta in 136 means it is a big fat null.

@Pmysterious: Why do you think that yellowbounder is the perfect lynch today? Also ugh.

Definitely sticking with my yellowbounder vote. I will explain if people can not see why.

I am going to third, or fourth? the prompt for BK to explain his Scigatt vote. There better be a pretty post behind it if it was just for the reactions.

Dude there was no reason to vote Scigatt. I just did it to see if Venmar(friend from another site) would say it was weird I followed him.

You've got like 6 minimal posts to your name and this is one of them. Do you not see how you presented "this is what everyone else thinks and I agree, I am setting myself up to vote him or look like I'm hunting, when his answer probably doesn't matter and this shit is old".

[BK201]

Konowa is just trying to fit in.

[BK201]

If you're town I suggest you rethink not voting YB. If you're scum then its ok, when YB eventually flips I think we'll have his partners.

[BK201]

and both of your votes on me suck.

[BK201]

Here's the thing. Scum don't want to kill the wolves super early. Early on the wolves are much more likely to hit town as they will be Seer hunting.

tl:dr Wolves kill town statistically more often than mafia early game. Making a trap for wolves is not a pro-mafia move to do. Vjay needs to stop being useless besides that but that doesn't make him scum.

[BK201]

I don't want to hear about 'statistically'. Statistics don't apply in actual games. Seer hunting my ass, how do you explain the Rainbowdash kill if they were Seer hunting?

You realize PM made that kill right? The same guy who turned himself in.

[BK201]

You don't have to hear about statistics. Everyone else can. Its common sense any anti-town killing role will have a much greater chance at hitting town early on. Even pro-town vigs kind of do.

[BK201]

and actually I when I re-read I saw a post or two of Rainbow connecting the dots Venmar and/or PM were scummy.

[BK201]

YB should really go today. We learn nothing from a Vjay lynch even if he's scum. Except that I am apparently defending him now.

[BK201]

Not to mention I checked up YB's meta and he appears more involved as town.

[BK201]

Umbrage.

PM TURNED HIMSELF IN. so pro and totally applies to the norm.

Its like when trying to find the average cost of a home in a neighborhood. You throw out the handful of 10 million dollar houses because they skew the realistic results.

[BK201]

His trap only applied to wolves.

[BK201]

neighborhood should be city, you get the idea.

[BK201]

Yo Umbrage, I was stalking YB's ongoing games. Differences abound.

[BK201]

DMS, what the fuck? I can get behind a vijay wagon, but his 'trap' could've applied to either wolves or mafia, which is why it was a stupid trap in the first place.

Also, did BK, Mr. I Had RL Issues just try to attack YB for not being involved?

Who do you find scummier, Vjay or YB? Why?

[BK201]

Umbrage you are plainly wrong. Wolves are a bigger threat earl game because the abc statistics don't lie.

Perhaps you just hate the word statistics as it's some study and not about this game.

It's about THIS game. There were 7 town compared to only 3 maf during Night 1. Chances are more than double they will hit town than mafia. Even if we lynched town it would have been right at double. The next night it would still be more.

[BK201]

Dood anything can happen with the kills. But if you have more of one side than the other then unless its really freaking obvious who is who then the one with more numbers is more likely to be killed.

The trap was for wolves because the question said who would you like to be mafia with? right? not scum, mafia.

Yes, you throw out the hermit's shack as well, in this case the shack was PM's play.

I assume most players have an easier time playing town, thus they post more content/often. This really is a minor point though, he will be lynched for this game.

[BK201]

Hey Umbrage, who's scummier me or YB? Why?

You too, Konowa.

[BK201]

That's actually a townish response. Thanks.

[BK201]

The final two scum are within Umbrage/Psyche/Vjay. Umbrage is the scummiest with YB.

VOTE: Umbrage

[BK201]

Konowa should be in the top 4.

[BK201]

Votecount 3.3 A lynch has been reached.

As there are 9 living players, it will 5 votes to lynch.

(5)

Yellowbounder

: BK201, Malakittens, crazy, konowa, yellowbounder

(L-0)

(1)

BK201

: Umbrage,
(1)

vijay2visandani

:drmyshotgun

(2)

Not Voting

: Pysche, vijay2vasandani

----------

Yellowbounder, mafia goon, has been lynched day 3.

Night 3 will end in (expired on 2012-07-27 14:05:00)

Hm. Scum wants to stop conversation early, which either means we're close to the buddy, or Konowa is the buddy.

Or because his buddies were off the wagon.

[BK201]

...and Vjay uses dice rather than pretend to scumhunt.

Also, we only have 3 mislynches, not 4.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Vjay




Umbrage, only because this is a bad situation for scum so lazy shit like what vjay did is worse.

[BK201]

Um how do we have three? And okay lynch me. But lynch Psyche afterwards. The die have spoken.

AtE, whether its town AtE or scum AtE its useless on its own. And thats the problem, the DIE have spoken, not the player.

[BK201]

Um how do we have three?

We have 4 tries, but we only have 3 mislynches.

If you're town scum-hunt. No dice.

[BK201]

If Vjay flips scum we have all the more reason to lynch Umbrage. That'd be too scum wagons he resisted.

[BK201]

And I agree Vjay seems like scum given up. I mean this is a shitty situation for scum.

[BK201]

And Umbrage, have you played with Vjay before?

[BK201]

No counter from me.

Actually, this kind of throws a wrench in my reads. I thought Malakittens/yellowbounder/vijay were the scum team... but now I'm going to have to reconsider my positions. If Mala is town, the others could be as well.

I'm going to do some rereading, especially of BK, shotty, and Crazy. The former two are leading the town right now. I have no real reason to suspect them, but if one or both of them are mafia we're screwed. Crazy's been off my radar for a while and it's time I fixed that.

Bolded the funny part.

[BK201]

I see why rainbow wanted to PL him.

[BK201]

VOTE: Psyche Do something.

[BK201]

Hi BK.

Hi Kondi.

[BK201]

@Psyche: Meh, you're probably town. From what I've seen of your scumgame, you're usually more obvious when you're scum. Plus, our reads are almost identical. UNVOTE:

If we're both right about everything, then the scum is between {Konowa, shotgun, BK},

with a lean towards Konowa and BK.

That's leaving out the possibility that I'm scum from your PoV, of course. Judging from your #606 and posts after it, you're probably leaning a Konowa/me team.

Going to do full team analysis.

I have a case on suspected partners, but I'm going to save it until later.

Willing to hammer shotgun right now.

What the hell is this contradiction? You're leaning Konowa and myself but volunteer to hammer drm? Deadline wasn't a factor at all, in fact you did this within 24 hours I think because I check every day.

[BK201]

Based on the little information I did get, I'm leaning scum on Konowa and Psyche due to PoE.

Both BK and shotgun wanted to keep PM alive as a "Town Vig", and I doubt Mafia would support that at all.

Meanwhile, Crazy was the only person who didn't look like a partner to yellowbound when ISOing with him.

Bolded makes perfect sense from Mafia perspective as they do not have a kill.

BK and DMS are last two.

Vote: drmyshotgun

I didn't post it until after shotgun died because it would be worthless if shotgun ended up flipping scum. shotgun being town also reinforces the point on Post 564.

Shotgun dying either made you/Konowa more obvious to me when he flipped town or scrapped it when he flipped scum.

Ok I see you had that ready.

VOTE: Kondi Umbrage case up in a minute. Kondi is his partner.

[BK201]

Woops, Kondi is not Kondi's partner, thought that would be cool.

Konowa is what I meant.

[BK201]

Just so you know, I'm not going to be able to defend against an Umbrage case.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p4140515
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p4116939
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p4117154
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p4122256
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p4140515

This is why I don't care about that. That guy almost AtE'd me to not lynch him at one point too.

[BK201]

Hey dude I've had shit replace in before too. Case after I play skyrim, its hot damn it.

[BK201]

If you want to make a town case on your slot, nothing's stopping you. Lol Psyche already did something like that with his slot.

[BK201]

Well.. Just by looking at the interaction with Bk/Kondi. If either or flips scum the other gets my vote on him in the following day. BK I have seen this play before. >.>

Mala thinks I'm bussing Kondi because in our only other game together I bussed her there.

[BK201]

Hey dude I've had shit replace in before too. Case after I play skyrim, its hot damn it.

What?

I'm going to play skyrim instead of posting my case. Its really hot. (I want to cool off downstairs, peace)

[BK201]

Look I AM town. Can we at least lynch the two players who avoided the YB wagon like the plague? That would be Umbrage(and I'll show you in my case) and Konowa.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Konowa
Doesn't matter which goes first really. Case incoming, don't hammer.

[BK201]

Psyche you piece of crap.

You better be scum or you FUCKING SUCK.

AGAIN.

[BK201]

Final 2 scum are within Konowa/Kondi/Psyche.

Don't be fooled.

[BK201]

Fucking asshole wouldn't even let me post my case.

[BK201]

Eh.

[BK201]

I'm on a schedule.

replace out. thanks.

[BK201]

Psyche is so fucking scum.

[BK201]

BK seems like town this game, prima facie.

Okay, I've read the thread. You can ALL start unvoting now.

7 living players,
Crazy is town.
Mala is town.
I am town.

Umbrage isn't to be trusted.

No compelling case has been presented against shotgun, and I'm leaning town on him.

BK is probably town for a few reasons, especially his explicit approval of letting pmyst live for the hell of it.

I want either konowa or kondi dead.

vote BK

[BK201]

No intent to hammer? No warning? hammer so quickly?

you are terrible, or you are scum.

[BK201]

Final 2 scum are within Konowa/Kondi/Psyche.

Don't be fooled.

This post is for Mala.

Crazy is most likely town, don't lynch him no matter what, and watch out for Kondi, he is very good at scum.

[BK201]

You almost definitely weren't going to change my mind.

You better be scum.

[BK201]

I think we lost because shotty was quick-lynched. I did not even see that one hit L-1. Quick-lynching is bad (for town).

I don't think any player performance is worthy of a scummy for this game, but I did think crazy was pretty town for a couple reasons. I mean crazy was good, but I don't think scummy nom worthy. What mostly did town in was the x3 quick-lynches...(I would still go back and support the vjay one b/c he really did seem like defeated scum, but drm and mine was pretty meh)

Anyways, good game everyone.

[BK201]

I think we lost because shotty was quick-lynched. I did not even see that one hit L-1. Quick-lynching is bad (for town).

Clarifying, one it was baseless lynch. two, drm would have thrown up resistance to my quicklynch.

[BK201]

This is like 2nd or 3rd time since I've started playing that my main suspect was scum and I got distracted.

[BK201]

Drm, always good to have you in the game man. We seem to always be town xD (except that one game where I was scum)

[BK201]

Btw If I'm MVP, its thanks to RBD. I was just carrying on RBD's case.

I'll admit, arguing with Umbrage might have been the most fun this game haha.

[BK201]

Can you guys link the scum QT, please?

[BK201]

"I can argue so much that the other townies will just give up trying to read."
-Umbrage

[BK201]

Its a team game, we played and lost together.

[BK201]

This game was a good learning experience. One more quote from the scum QT

"Welp, now we've got a confirmed townie and no way to get rid of it. And we need at least 3 more mislynches. Which normally wouldn't be a problem, but shotty and BK201 are out of control. If they're deciding the lynches now, we're screwed. So we need to ISO these two, study them. We need to build a case on at least one of them. Once the dynamic duo is broken up, the town is without a head and easy to manipulate." -Umbrage

:p

[BK201]

You were Confirmed Town and should have been the one to make the hammers not just vote straightaway.

I agree on the confirmed town deciding the hammers part.