Open 438: Masons and Mafia - Game Over

[DoubleJD]

VOTE: salamence20

You know why

[DoubleJD]

^^Scummy. My vote on sala is no longer random vendetta vote.

[DoubleJD]

Scummy because you claim PG is scummy but also a Village Idiot. I dont see how you can already claim him to be town at this point if you also think theres legit reason to think hes scummy. In addition, you dont know about the other cases on people...so you only seem to have been looking at pg. Thats very curious. Couple that with 3 lines of fluff to start the post and i see a solid scum post from you.

Other wagons are all meh at this point, and everyone should join me in lynching you

[DoubleJD]

Though I see the smiley at the end it seems like you are pushing very hard over one post. I am waiting for a response for from Salamence though because I would like to see what he says.

It would make my day if salamence got lynched

[DoubleJD]

FOS mcstab.

[DoubleJD]

Just because i dont like salamance, does not make my point mute. Which, he has completely ignored.

[DoubleJD]

And why are we still trying to link people together when it's already been mentioned that we shouldn't team players up in our thoughts where scum can see it? We run the risk of scum picking up on the Masons should one of them slip. Every Mason they eliminate is one day we lose without even using our lynch. A day that we have to get back by lynching scum, which is harder for us to do than it is for scum to pull the trigger on someone. Again, we need to invest our time and analysis into each player as an individual without team speculation. The scum know who their team is. They just have to scout for the 4 players they have the safest and fastest kill on. And we improve their chances by doubling and tripling players together.

Im gonna question this post, instead of mcstab's that was similar.

Why do you completely ignore the case where scum hits a VT instead of a mason? Why do you assume scum will fire on anyone that isnt near confirmed mason? This post, and the similar thoughts by mcstab, look a lot like fear mongering to get town to scum hunt poorly.

[DoubleJD]

Hey sala, ill give you different questions to answer since you didnt like my first few.

Which parts of PG's first three posts make you feel he is a VI, and which parts made you think he was scummy? Why does him not being a vi in post 105 make him town? Does this contradict your previous thoughts about his scummy behavior?

[DoubleJD]

Its not tunneling. Im asking him questions that should be answered becasue theyre observed contradictions. With that said, i like his reponse UNVOTE: sala.

@Greygnarl: We go into twilight the second someone hits the vote threshold. Typically, players are allowed to continue to talk until the mod officially closes the thread.

[DoubleJD]

Lots of stuff happened while i was gone.

@Hyperion: It sounded like a genuine thought process regarding the VI/Scummy contradiction.

@Greywing: Scummiest is Sala still, but ill get back to him later.

[DoubleJD]

Why do you completely ignore the case where scum hits a VT instead of a mason? Why do you assume scum will fire on anyone that isnt near confirmed mason? This post, and the similar thoughts by mcstab, look a lot like fear mongering to get town to scum hunt poorly.

The scum likely won't shoot D1. I'm suggesting for D1, let's not put our thoughts about connections between players out in the open unless it's obvious scum trying to cling to someone. It's okay if you want to make a note to yourself about it. Anywhere but here. We're planning according to the realization that we can't safely piece people together as teams until we have deaths and lynch counts to go off of. It's like every player has their own compartment and their alignment is in a file in that compartment. At this moment, we should keep things that way until we have at least one flip, which will also give us a full day's worth of votecounts.

It forces the one on the spot to take us closer to the scum by answering us, whether they are scum or not.

Scum could hit a VT, but it's not very sound to shoot D1 when any scum who takes such a shot knows (s)he is more likely to die. The reward is great, taking away one of the town's affordable mislynches right off the bat, but so is the risk, putting scum down a player D1 and giving us a flip to go off of for the rest of the game. Hitting a VT means they give us the truth, but it is not in their best interest for us to learn the truth. As such, they will likely hold off shooting as long as it takes for them to gain favorable odds of a successful kill. That is not to say they will go trigger happy at that moment.

Analyzing individuals without tying one player's name to another hinders their ability to use PoE and further limits their options. They likely don't have much choice left but to ride town wagons until a mason turns up, and by then, we'll very likely be on one scum's trail if we haven't already lynched scum.

Now, what about this plan supposedly encourages us to scumhunt poorly?

Back to this. @Others: dont dismiss this as theory talk, its not.

You have a ton of possible coaching in here, basically explicitly telling scum not to fire day1. You even say it twice. You also move from saying not to talk about any possible teams, to allowing talk about obvious scum pairings. You keep arguing that its unsafe to pair people together, but theres fatal flaws here that scum wont admit. Such as

1) A VT's best move under pressure is to claim mason.
2) VT's should be acting as much like masons as possible
3) Scum wont be firing on potential pairings, yet pairings can help find scum

VOTE: PG

The only reason i can see for not wanting to pair people together, is that it allows scum to do so openly. But you havent talked about that point, and have insisted on the 'watch out, itll make it easy to find masons and then we'll be men down' arguement. That is fear mongering while also taking away our ability to find scum.

[DoubleJD]

Why would you want to link townies together? The point is its not dangerous to link potential scum to other potential scum and that should be encouraged.

[DoubleJD]

But you arent automatically linking masons together if you're wrong about your scum connection. It could be scum-townie, it could be scum-mason, it could be town-town, it could be town-mason, and it could be mason-mason. As far as i can tell, they have no way of knowing which is which and the combinations that include scum should be more frequent anyway if reads are in any way useful.

You're alluding to a parallel thought of "If can be wrong about scum pairings, then can be wrong about mason pairings" which is true, but i like to think we can trust our reads.

[DoubleJD]

No, yes? This isnt a breaking strategy; we still have to find scum. I see no reason to limit talk because of the boogey man though

[DoubleJD]

Damn it, JD. You're scum, aren't you?

Tunneling Sala for absolutely no reason.

All of a sudden, focusing on others as soon as he's called out on it.

Attempting to link people together even though he's been told logically why that's a bad idea in this setup. Having been scumbuddies with him in the past, I know he's no idiot. This is intentional.

VOTE: DoubleJD

You know I love you mate, but I'm afraid I have to kill you.

His play thus far means that I have a Town read on Sala. This also seems like Sala's standard playstyle from what I've read of him. Therefore, I'm against lynching Sala unless JD's proven to be Town.

Wut?

I have plenty of reason for attacking sala, and ive laid it out. Focusing on others, aka turning to PG. Ive gotten all i can out of sala, there is no reason to keep going. Everyone in this thread should have a solid opinion about him now.

Talk to me why what im saying is wrong about linking scum together, because ive been logically arguing that it isnt. This is a defense of PG, and you have now joined her rank as scum from a null tell before.

@My meta: Why do you link and talk about my first game on site with you, but neglect the other we're now currently both dead in? Thats pretty interesting.

[DoubleJD]

@PG: Yes, i am coaching there. The difference, is that im coaching other townies. Ill repeat some other things too. Scum have no way of knowing if a suspected scum pairing is actually a mason pairing, thus there is nothing to fear. Simple.

[DoubleJD]

HA, I KNEW IT.

[DoubleJD]

Sala goes after me, Om, Whiskers and Mcstab. These guys should be cleared for day1 (yes, im clearing myself. big whoop wanna fight aboud it)

Gnarl can easily be a salamance buddy

post 63
post 121
post 122

Greywing can be scum too

post 194

post 203

Hyperion can be townie for now too. He attacks sala enough. post 174
post 205
post 226
post 227
post 233

Malakittens can be scum
post 107
post 123
post 154

Pasch doesnt say much

Seil doesnt say much

And there is tons of budying between sala and pg which is already being talked about

[DoubleJD]

My votes gone now, so revote

VOTE: PG

[DoubleJD]

I stopped reading your post after you called me scum in the second line. You really think a scum DJD and Sala team has me railroading him for most of the game? Its more likely he shot me.

[DoubleJD]

The posts from Greywing, Gnarl, and Mala are all much more incriminating than those of Pesch. What are your thoughts on them and why pesch over them? Your vote looks rash and self preservation driven

[DoubleJD]

7 to lynch, not 6. My vote is L-2.

@pg: come now, the post after i said i stopped reading implies i finished. Grey is scummy becasue he tried to kill my argument against sala by calling it tunneling, which now looks like a defense of sala. In addition, he calls him town several times when there wasnt reason to think so.

[DoubleJD]

Let me put it differently.

Suppose there is a scum buddy that wants to defend sala. Probably the easiest way to do this is to just say "aw djd is just tunneling! ignore plz". It makes it so you dont have to actually defend against the argument at hand, frees you to attack the accuser (which grey did), all while also slowing down the sala train.

Grey's scum, and you not seeing it establishes a link between you two in addition to the one with sala

[DoubleJD]

Yes, he 'planted' a link early game knowing he would die and everyone would go back and read those 1-2 posts and instantly infer you were buddies. Yeah no.

Another desperation vote from you. You're arguing to win the argument instead of using what you have to find my role. I stopped reading your post to question your attack on me because its ridiculous, its still ridiculous.

You're ok with linking people together now? Thats odd considering you've been arguing with me all game about not doing exactly that.

Obv bitterness over sala 'ignoring cues' from you.

Hammer plz

[DoubleJD]

Grey, you would never out as mason to save PG unless

A) You were both masons

B) You were both scum

But, if you were both masons, why would you tell scum both that PG was a mason, and so were you? There wasnt any certainty he'd get shot, but if you are really a mason, now there is certainty that both of you would be.

We found 2 scum guys!

[DoubleJD]

Grey, tell me how you know for a 100% fact that PG is town and that you'd do this as a townie.

[DoubleJD]

Implying mason or vt. Which is it?

[DoubleJD]

I doubt anyone counterclaims if Grey didnt claim mason buddies with PG. Its one thing to claim at L-1, quite another to have someone confirm your claim.

[DoubleJD]

My reads werent based on PG's role, and ive already laid out my thinking for every player in the game. Explain how its a good tactic to tunnel Sala as a scum buddy.

I need to reread based on PG being vt, but grey is town now.

[DoubleJD]

I lied, because om's flip has info too. Here ya go

Gnarl is scummy for following the "in" wagon, except when its salamance. This includes his thoughts on Om, Mcstab, PG, and me. Also for completely avoiding anything to do with today. Also hypersensitivity to being called scummy, aka "everyone says hes scummy". I didnt see this in most isos.

Seilkops: He jumps on sala for retracting the om scum claim. Otherwise is super hesitant to do anything regarding sala but also calls him slightly scummy. Im mixed here. Hes not particularly doing any hunting, and is mostly sliding around. Lean scum.

PB: Who

Whiskers: Looks to be scumhunting, supports a sal lynch, some buddying to Om, townie.

Aku (Pasch): Still null. He kinda suspects sala, kinda doesnt. No real info from om.

Mcstab: Lynches sala, sala wants him dead, hes town.

Malakittien: Defends sala, townie vibes on om, less scummy than before.

Hyperion: Scum hunting, hates sala, town reads om, hes townie too.

Greywing: Town, because scum wouldnt claim mason and draw more attn to them...considering hes had so much attn on him before. Maybe theres a wifom thing going on, doubt it.

Strongest town reads: Gwing, Mcstab

Prob town: Hyper, Whiskers

Maybe Scum: Mala, Pasch

Scum: Gnarl, Seilkops

Who: PB

[DoubleJD]

Ha, whiskers can join Grey and Mcstab as obv townies.

@Whisk: Ya, grey could have done it as scum. Its super risky though considering all the suspicion he had earlier in the thread. He could risk it to gain townie cred, idk. Im still sold on town grey

[DoubleJD]

the greys in the previous post refer to greywing

[DoubleJD]

FML. Greywing is more town now, and gnarl can be town now too? Idfk, ill reread the thread for the billionth time tomorrow

[DoubleJD]

K, updated read list. TLDR Most likely to be townie is Mcstab>Grey>Hyperion>Pesch>Gnarl>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Seil. PB null.

Greywing: Town fursurr, considering whiskers attempted to steer me away from that. Vanishing after retracting his VT claim is noted, but ive seen greywing vanish as both town and scum so w/e.

Greygnarl: Can be town now, becasue whiskers TLDR attacked him. It could be a bus, the case against him is still there, and he thinks om was scum for thinking whiskers was town. I thought she looked town too...so it seems weird for him to attack her at that point (197).

Mcstab: Attacks whiskers too, in addition to the other stuff. Whiskers has a few antimcstab posts, even so far as suspecting only mcstab and sala in the same post. Unlikely as scum imo. Still town

Pesch: Can be town now. Calls both whiskers and sala slightly scummy at one point, though greywing and PG were his top picks.

Hyperion: Nulls whiskers, meh. His attack on sala seems really genuine. Still townie imo

The remaining players are Seilkops and PB and at this point, i think both are scum by PoE. However, my case against seil hasnt changed from before. Rather i add to it this
-2 flips, and all he cares to do is defend against my attack. 0 interest in figuring out roles
-ignoring most attacks/defenses. This is lurker scum.

[DoubleJD]

What on earth are you talking about. All you've done so far is defend yourself. You are still just defending yourself. What info has the flips given you, and why are you uninterested in using them to figure out roles?

And ya, not voting my only scum read isnt a scum tell btw. Saying it is is just an attack designed to win the argument though instead of figuring out my role. How can you argue that me not voting is scummy, but then in the same breath say you arent ready to vote? Thats hilarious, especially since you seem just as sure that im scum that i am of you. Id rather wait myself and see you flail some more and have others give their opinions honestly. 4 flips is a lot, and too many people arent talking.

What do you mean what happened to make me change my mind? We had flips. Thats what happened. Flips give role info on other players too, and should change reads. Ignoring them, like you have, is indicative of being scum because you dont get any info from flips at all.

[DoubleJD]

@Greywing: I agree, theres tons of stuff scummy about gnarl. What do you make of Whisker's wall against him though? It could be distancing...but i feel like it isnt.

@Seil: Ill be watching to see if you just parrot everyone else's thoughts instead of makign your own.

@Hyperion: Hrmmmmmm why did you point out that "Obv whiskers=scum" but not "obv mala=mason/town"? That seems....scum slippy

[DoubleJD]

Ya ok. Seil's the best choice. VOTE: seilkop

@Hyperion: Yup, i misread that lol. If he was also asking for mala reads, then it might have been a slip just becasue you'd have favored one flip over another.

@Greygnarl: Switch to seil. The hyperion lynch has much less merit.

[DoubleJD]

My issue with PB is that i cant shake the idea that scum would have pm'd the mod early in the game about his absence.

[DoubleJD]

Gah no. Theres too much favoring everyone else as town. VOTE: PB

[DoubleJD]

Mcstab's vla till tomorrow iirc. Not suprised people arent here on sunday morning/afternoon though

[DoubleJD]

PB is the best choice, becasue there isnt any evidence saying he isnt scum. Every other player has evidence for them being town, and id rather not equip my tinfoil hat for other players until i have to.

[DoubleJD]

Heh, i had fun. Tried a new style this game and nailed 2 scum with it. Shouldnt have backed off of sala, but whatevs.

[DoubleJD]

Lol, thanks hyperion. That post made it easy

VOTE: hyperion

Reasoning? Outrage after PB dies, but not before.

[DoubleJD]

(Most scummy) Hyperion, Gnarl, You, Pesch, Mcstab (Most townie)

You have meta with hyperion as scum correct? What do you think of him?

[DoubleJD]

Well its either him or hyper. Ive pretty much ruled you out just cuz of meta, pesch doesnt have a single bus attempt against him to consider but had good scum reads, and lolmcstab is town.

I can see it. Ive recently become convinced that whiskers could very likely have been bussing gnarl since she shot right after doing so. Ima reread that seil/gnarl interaction again and see if that works nicely too.

[DoubleJD]

@358: I labeled that as possible buddying, along with an earlier post saying i had the most educated opinion or something. Seems really likely now. Hrm.

Ya ok. I dont like his seil interaction either.

UNVOTE: UNVOTE:
VOTE: greygnarl

[DoubleJD]

Found that newbie game you were in with hype. Ya, he seems to have a similar style minus some 'new to site' newbieness posts. As soon as he gets into it he posts a lot like he has.

Whiskers+Seil did fairly well throwing me off on gnarl, but it seems obvious now.

[DoubleJD]

God damn it, im so lost now.

A) Supposin we caught gnarl, thats a tactic he might do to save himself as a last ditch effort
B) Supposin hes actually just VT, his response seems kinda genuine.

Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[DoubleJD]

NO, IM GOING ALL IN. YOU'RE BLUFFING >.<

[DoubleJD]

No, not after 422 UNVOTE: .

[DoubleJD]

Maybe. I dont fuckin know.

[DoubleJD]

NO. FUCKING. WAY.

[DoubleJD]

I absolutely could not believe Mcstab was scum. Every reread i saw the sala/stab interaction and it just didnt make sense. It meant salamance bussed mcstab, highlighted seil's lurkyness, and hated on whiskers, without really going after anyone else and that kind of bussing was just so unbelievable. Well Played, grey and pasch would have had to do a toooooooooooon of convincing to make me even consider voting mcstab (though i was proper stumped and didnt know where to go after gnarl's preemptive claim).

@Sala: You're on Micro 11 incoming!

[DoubleJD]

@Everyone (mod included): THIS WAS A FANTASTIC GAME. I feel town did well, i feel scum did well, there werent any diatribes against anyone, very little prodding, and it had just the right amount of sillyness and was super fast! This was fun! Love the setup too; the unexpected deaths and no downtime is great, but really the fact that every role has a decent amount of strategy made this a very involved game. Props!

[DoubleJD]

@VT's Claiming Mason: Putting the actual game aside, im honestly mixed about it. I underestimated the potential of masons to act funny in response (i did this WITH masonmala to greywings claim, and om's coutner claim), but i kinda feel if we played smarter about it then the potential for mass confusion among scum is still very high. In game, it was mostly reaction test stuff to cause trouble :3

VT's claiming mason at L-1 seems bad. I cant find reasons scum would fire, and they'd know how many scum were on the wagon and could then determine if any masons were on it at all.

VTs claiming mason at other times though, idk. If someone other than a mason....like say, gnarl, counter claimed greywing...it would have been a brilliant play. Or maybe if they counter claim a mason who's getting lynched (or a scum claiming mason getting lynched).

So idk. Theres definitely spots where fake claiming mason as town is beneficial, and certainly town wants to act like masons and buddy so its harder for scum to draw connections.