Open 438: Masons and Mafia - Game Over


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Post Post #28 (isolation #0) » Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:34 pm

Post by McStab »

In post 19, ProsecutorGodot wrote:Alright. Day 1, new game, RVS time.

Courtesy of random.org, the number 4.

VOTE: Paschendale



We're officially out of RVS, folks.

Vote:ProsecutorGodot


This is mega scummy. Why feel the need to go to random.org? Worried about appearing suspicious? This is also a detriment to everyone because RVS isn't supposed to be truly random.

Wagon ahoy!
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Post Post #36 (isolation #1) » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:53 am

Post by McStab »

In post 34, Greywing wrote:
In post 22, Malakittens wrote:Why GW?


  • Overly defensive over a random vote.
  • Trying to make someone look scummy based on absolutely nothing.


  • Why doesn't any of this apply to PG?
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    Post Post #42 (isolation #2) » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:31 pm

    Post by McStab »

    In post 40, Malakittens wrote:I still think it's wrong to roll or even vote RVS by an RNG.

    As for GW I don't know why, but I felt his vote was a bit off which is why I questioned it.

    @ McStab: Possibly a GW/PG team, somehow? Maybe that's why GW didn't apply it to PG? Might be a bit too early for these reads on Page 2, but there's tons of factors to consider though.


    It's possible, but I don't think speculating at this stage is a good thing. Masons know their own, Mafia know their own, and establishing a link between two people that turn out to be masons would be quite bad.

    Instead of trying to use associative links, we should wait until someone flips scum for their individual behaviour, if you ask me. For now, I think Greywing's hypocrisy should be noted but not pushed; if PG flips scum, then he's a prime suspect.


    I don't buy the "I was trying to get us out of RVS by being random". Read Whiskers sig link and that explains why. The only reason we're out of RVS is because he's scummy as hell, let's get a wagon going up in here.
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    Post Post #44 (isolation #3) » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:56 pm

    Post by McStab »

    I can get on board with Greywing, post #34 is hypocritiscummy
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    Post Post #45 (isolation #4) » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:56 pm

    Post by McStab »

    Vote:Greywing
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    Post Post #80 (isolation #5) » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:35 pm

    Post by McStab »

    Firstly, I'm fine with either PG or GW wagons at this point. Both have exhibited scummy behaviour.

    Second, in regards to what some of you considered an about-face, you've misunderstood my meaning or I have misspoken. By not pushing the hypocrisy of GW too far, I mean in the sense that his hypocrisy for not voting for PG. We shouldn't ask him why he didn't apply that standard to PG, because that could possibly establish associative links, which is more of an advantage to scum than town at this point.

    Thirdly, Whiskers seriously misunderstood or is deliberately misconstruing my post if he thought I thought Greywing was scummier based on my post. I thought they were more or less equally scummy. Furthermore, how can I seem more intent on pushing PG to a lynch than Greywing if I am supposedly accusing and voting Greywing? This is ridiculous logic.

    Fourth, why in the hell would you post that you don't play a huge part in the game Om? If you're a mason you could be using WIFOM, but still, it only helps scum if we all start saying that we're not "huge parts" of the game. Don't even respond to this to avoid giving any more information to scum, but I'm just saying, this isn't beneficial play to the town to start revealing (even if you're fake-saying it) role claims.
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    Post Post #82 (isolation #6) » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:38 pm

    Post by McStab »

    @Om: Ah kk, I reread it and get what you're saying now. My bad
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    Post Post #108 (isolation #7) » Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:40 am

    Post by McStab »

    PG, I didn't back off Greywing's wagon, I never got off of it
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    Post Post #153 (isolation #8) » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:02 pm

    Post by McStab »

    In post 129, Whiskers wrote:Not sure it's great to be making reads-lists. I know mafia are unlikely to shoot recklessly, but I'm not sure I understand giving more information than, "This guy is scum, here's why" until we have enough people who agree for a lynch.
    Mala doesn't look like scum to me.

    @Salamence: McStab said two people were scummy: PG and Greywing. Right? He wanted to lynch PG go go go, iirc. He gave reasons for both of them being scummy, then voted the less scummy one. It didn't seem right, so I voted for the more scummy one.
    What doesn't make sense about this?

    I'm taking the night off, btw. Ohm: I won't be able to hang out after all.



    In case anyone skimmed over this, this is my defense. In case anyone doesn't see this, here:


    I WILL VOTE PG OR GW.

    Both are scummy. Sala's uber-weak argument against me (which for some reason he still hasn't actually voted on me) is basically "McStab never explicitly said Greywing was scum but said PG was. He said they were connected probably though. Then he votes Greywing out of NOWHERE? Scum if I've ever seen it (but somehow Om who has made like five posts, all of which are fluff, still beats me on his scumdar)." Let's do some elementary logic.

    Proposition 1: PG is scum.
    Proposition 2: PG and GW are connected.
    Conclusion: PG and GW are scum together.


    How this logic escapes some people mystifies me, I think it far more likely that those accusing me are scum.

    Unvote, Vote: Sala


    GOGOGOGOGOGO
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    Post Post #155 (isolation #9) » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:16 pm

    Post by McStab »

    So you think PG is scum regardless, yet you vote me?

    I didn't want to bring Proposition 2 up either, but people seemed to miss it when it struck me as obvious.
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    Post Post #158 (isolation #10) » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:25 pm

    Post by McStab »

    In post 156, Malakittens wrote:Your vote on him was really scummy.


    How?



    @Sala: Did you just read what I took all that time to point out to you?


    Proposition 1: PG is scum.
    Proposition 2: GW is related to PG.
    Conclusion: GW is scum.


    It's not explicitly said "GW is scummy" it's inferred.

    Everyone jump on the Sala wagon, full speed ahead
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    Post Post #161 (isolation #11) » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:49 pm

    Post by McStab »

    I did start off with a non-RVS vote. Those of you who are interested in becoming detectives or private investigators can probably deduce this from this quote of mine (the very first sentence I posted in this game):

    "We're officially out of RVS, folks."

    Stop trying to act like this is some revelation, Mala.

    I do ask GW why his case doesn't apply to PG. Nothing wrong there.

    As for my disregard of the top post, here's another quote of mine defending against this other empty accusation:

    "Second, in regards to what some of you considered an about-face, you've misunderstood my meaning or I have misspoken. By not pushing the hypocrisy of GW too far, I mean in the sense that his hypocrisy for not voting for PG. We shouldn't ask him why he didn't apply that standard to PG, because that could possibly establish associative links, which is more of an advantage to scum than town at this point."

    The hypocrisy I suggest we SHOULD push is that of post #34, which he is guilty of. Not why he didn't vote for someone, but rather why he did when he is guilty of the same things.

    @Sala: I'm voting you because you're scummy, not because you're "testing my propositions". You aren't testing my propositions at all; I don't even have any propositions. This is merely the term I'm using that explains my logic. I'm voting you because of general scumminess, and then pointing out why your so-called case on me doesn't hold water.
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    Post Post #185 (isolation #12) » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:51 am

    Post by McStab »

    In post 162, Salamence20 wrote:Ok, so explained that part.

    But if this is your logic, why are you voting me over your logic, when you seem so determined that PG and GW are scum?

    I'm just not getting why you were so determined on calling those two scum, and then out of nowhere calling me scummy, my case weak, and voting me.


    Classic scum "look over there" logic. My logic has since changed; this was my logic at three pages of content, we now have eight. You are scummier by far for weak cases against Om and myself.

    Your case is weak because you just conceded that I've explained my logic sufficiently. Hence, not even you can carry your case on against me. Yet your vote is still on me.


    Hyperion is probably scum-partners with Sal; I don't see them being masons, and Hyperion made only ONE unique comment against me, that was weak. The rest is him sheeping Sala's hole-ridden case.
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    Post Post #232 (isolation #13) » Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:33 am

    Post by McStab »

    In post 230, Salamence20 wrote:Well, there you have it

    Another game, another time I fuck up as town.

    VOTE: Salamence20

    GG, sorry I suck.

    Claiming VT at L-2.

    Now excuse me while I kill myself over how bad I am.



    Everyone pity unvote me because oh well I'm town....


    No, I don't buy that. Keep the votes coming, folks
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    Post Post #241 (isolation #14) » Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:29 am

    Post by McStab »

    PG's final messages are such obvious coaching to Sala. I think the L-1 vote is him trying to buy towncred.

    Vote:PG
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    Post Post #318 (isolation #15) » Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:19 pm

    Post by McStab »

    Wow, lots and lots of happenings right now.
    Mod:I will hopefully still have computer access but there is a chance I won't, I'm going out of town till the 13th.
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    Post Post #370 (isolation #16) » Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:50 am

    Post by McStab »

    Ok, I got back earlier (as in now). I'll write a catchup post soon, but please no one hammer PB while I'm gone. I think I've got the last scum pegged down and it isn't PB.
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    Post Post #373 (isolation #17) » Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:21 pm

    Post by McStab »

    I'm convinced Greywing is the last scum. He seems to have flown over everyone's radar because of the whole Om outing himself situation, where he claimed to be masons with PG. This shouldn't clear him.

    Ok, so let's assume you're Greywing and you're scum. You see PG about to get lynched; you're uncertain of his alignment, but he has just claimed mason. Now, you know PG is town, but are unsure of what to make of it; hammering would be too obvious on a claimed mason, and lurking/not commenting would raise some alarm bells. What do you do? You claim to back him up as a mason. When PG flips town (be it mason or VT) you instantly gain some towncred for trying to save him. If people believe your claim, the masons will obviously react differently and be more confused about whether or not you're masons/scum.

    The purpose of such a gambit would be threefold:

    1. Try to get a mason counterclaim, thus getting PG mislynched (as presumably he's a scum associate of yours) and giving the scum info on the mason flip (from the mason counterclaim). The advantage to scum is obvious.
    2. Blatant reaction testing. Even if no one flips, scum can narrow the pool of candidates to those who seem to be obviously confused by the mason backing up claim. Advantage: scum.
    3. Gain massive towncred. When PG flips town, it appears as a town gambit to save a town player. You can claim VT who tried to draw scum shots.

    Further cementing my belief that Greywing is scum lies precisely in what should have happened when he claimed; the scum SHOULD have tried to shoot him and failed. Now, admittedly, there wasn't much time between his claim and Om's counterclaim; BUT in that small timeframe, two CONFIRMED scum posted, without taking the shot at either Grey or PG (Whiskers and seilkops). Why wouldn't they take the shot on two masons? Sure, no flip had occurred, but the apparent attempt to save a mason partner by Greywing should have warranted an attempt (and anyone suggesting scum are just playing overly cautious, clearly haven't seen the totally unprompted shot by Whiskers that failed or the shot by seilkops before he'd even gotten to L-1). Despite the fact that two confirmed scum had seen this play out, no shots were taken.

    Why were no shots taken? Because they knew Greywing was scum with them. Whiskers tries to subtly influence the town to go along with Greywing's gambit, by proposing (in post #276) that:

    "Claiming masons is an incredibly bad move for scum. If one of you flips scum, the other one will be lynched immediately. I don't think PG is scum, regardless."

    Whiskers is hedging his bets. If Greywing somehow gets lynched or flips on a missed shot, PG is then lined up to be mislynched to offset the scum loss. If PG flips, it is presumably going to clear Greywing (which, up until this point, most people seemed to have agreed with). Notice Greywing himself hasn't voted for a scum player all game, defended Sala as a town player, and attacked DJD, who is now my strongest townread. Furthermore, although Sala very rarely references Greywing personally, he began to attack me only AFTER I attacked Greywing. Seilkops also adds to the associative links in Post #278 by helping establish a connection between PG and Grey, which again is an advantage by either PG flipping town and giving Greywing towncred, or Greywing flipping scum and making PG an easy mislynch. Seilkops even tries to coach Greywing into not doing this again. In Post #352, who is Seil's biggest townread? Greywing.

    In conclusion, Greywing's mason claim with PG was meant to both gain him towncred and draw out masons. This is exactly what he accomplished. The only flaw in his plan was in the absence of a shot against either him or PG, despite two scum who obviously fired rather indiscriminately posting before a counterclaim. Greywing wasn't shot at because he was scum. This is backed up by the early interplay between him and Sala, refinement and support of his plan by Whiskers, and coaching by seilkops.

    Vote: Greywing
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    Post Post #376 (isolation #18) » Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:35 pm

    Post by McStab »

    In post 374, Hyperion wrote:Greynarl is throwing his vote all over the place.
    note posts 356 357 and 358. He votes Seil AFTER DJD, and i think he is distancing


    Any comment at all on the Greywing case, Hyp?
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    Post Post #382 (isolation #19) » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:32 pm

    Post by McStab »

    Your "case" against me is manufactured. How do I know this?

    Your case against me is dependent on PB being town and Greywing being town. You then settle on voting for PB, even if he is town (which, if you really think I'm guilty, he is), because you don't want to draw out the game unnecessarily. Longer conversation is good for the town, even in this setup. No need to quicklynch someone on the basis of PoE when we have a handful of mislynches we could afford.

    Also, how is my case against Greywing weak? Find some flaw in that. Find me a way that mafia don't fall for the bait, that he somehow has been town despite not having voted ONCE for one of the three confirmed scum, and all of them essentially saying he's town in every post they mention him?
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    Post Post #398 (isolation #20) » Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:20 pm

    Post by McStab »

    In post 397, greygnarl wrote:Goddamn. I have no clue. My McStab read looks weaker every time I read it and everybody else seems so town. Maybe McStab is right about Greywing. Four more mislynches before scum can win.


    I'm still waiting for Greywing's self-vote. Don't think it buys him any towncred by claiming he'll self-vote if PB flips town. His only response to my case was "It's great but it's wrong".

    Vote: Greywing
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    Post Post #399 (isolation #21) » Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:22 pm

    Post by McStab »

    I'm also 99% sure that the last scum is in the group of Greywing, greygnarl and Pasch (in order from scummiest to most town). Unsure on Hyperion but his absence from the PB wagon is a huge townmark, and I'd eat my shoe if DJD flips scum.
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    Post Post #432 (isolation #22) » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:52 pm

    Post by McStab »

    ARGH.... I thought I had it figured out with a Hyperion-Pasch mason team.

    DJD made some comments early in the game that made me think he was VT. Right after I killed Mala I thought Hyperion was for sure a mason, with either PB or greygnarl as his last buddy. I held back hoping to see one of them, but between PB's flip and greygnarl's last minute VT confession (a huge problem for me, btw) I realized Paschendale was the last mason. I intended to kill Paschendale immediately after Greywing flipped, and then try to convince DJD that greygnarl really was scum. I thought it would work, but everyone in the town giving Hyperion a free pass for the last few days kept me thinking that Hyperion was a mason.

    I really really liked this setup. Sala did some good bussing, but I think the things that ultimately hurt the town were:

    Om counterclaiming. Not that I was going to shoot (and I doubt Whiskers or seil were convinced, either) but it was smart thinking by Greywing to try and draw one of our shots. Once Om counterclaimed it made my job a ton easier (aside from killing Om, it meant Greywing was a VT).
    Greygnarl being all over the place also hurt town, he went from being a potential mason to definitely misinformed, which led me to believe he was town.

    The things that ultimately hurt the scum were Whiskers taking his shot prematurely, in particular. Although Sala got himself lynched really early, he did help clear me considerably, and so I felt as though it was a successful sacrifice. Not that I can really blame Whiskers - I was certain Hyperion was a mason too. I just thought that given our limited knowledge of the last mason, leaving Hyperion alive would've been a bonus till the endgame. It sort of worked out, in that I had Pasch lined up as a mason, but DJD really fooled me. Props to him.

    I feel as though in the future, a pregame QT for scum or masons would be a cool addition. What really hurt scum was that we were taking our shots when suspicion wasn't on us. Sala's shot was useful, but left no breadcrumb. Whiskers shot hurt alot, seeing as it went from us having two relatively townread players to just me.

    The Greywing case was a bit of a stretch, admittedly, but I figured that at the time he had too much towncred. Removing him or at least denting his image before LyLo was an absolute must. I think Greywing played VT perfectly; this isn't a normal game where masons die the second they're confirmed. Masons shouldn't have counterclaimed in this setting, they should've just lynched PG and silently gone about their business. If anything, being a mason in this setup was kind of like being another scum group and constantly being in a night phase.

    Still, great setup and modding Maxwell. Shame I picked wrong on Hyperion, but I felt as though I had to get the masons out of the way before greygnarl and Greywing were dead.
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    Post Post #433 (isolation #23) » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:54 pm

    Post by McStab »

    Also, I chose to kill Mala early because I was pretty sure she was mason, and she was one of the few players not chanting pro-McStab. After DJD posted his reads post that put me and Whiskers in the strong town category, I really thought he was VT, given that I thought it impossible he would put so many real VTs and the other mason in that scum category.
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    Post Post #435 (isolation #24) » Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:00 pm

    Post by McStab »

    The whole town seemed to give him a free pass, even more than me, and aside from his Day One scumhunting, he struck me as a brick in the later days. Pasch did a good job hiding it too, I only figured him out after greygnarl's little confession. Greygnarl not counting properly is probably what cost us the game as well; a lynch on him would've cemented Greywing's lynch next, and at that point I may have taken my chances not shooting till endgame.
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    Post Post #439 (isolation #25) » Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:29 pm

    Post by McStab »

    ^^Totally agree, any rerunning of this setup, consider me in.

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