Open 446: C9++ (Avast! Viruses!) - GAME OVER

[Rainbowdash]

Possibly the worst reaction test ever.

Vote Elmo

Appledash alliance is a go.

[Rainbowdash]

inte was worse than yours.

Both bad. Thats not how reaction tests work.

[Rainbowdash]

@DC - It just makes no sense to make that type of move/claim so its probably a reaction test and just dicrediting. You get awesome credit if the joke you made early on was intentional though.
@inte - Aside from the fact that there are no day vigs in this setup given that its semi-open, formatting + hitting semi-likely town + page one all make it really obviously fake.

I should note that because its messed stuff up in this setup in the past - I will not shoot if I am a vig. I refuse to shoot because on a whole vigs are an anti-town role in a majority of situations.

Elmo wagon before he gets here would be nice.

[Rainbowdash]

@AJ - Reaction test of somepony who just reaction tested isnt going to work and they more need to just be clopped upside the head and told to stop doing that stuff.

Defender is also a great wagon. Hold steady on the Elmo one though.

AJ, PB, DC all somewhat town off page one though, thats awesome.

[Rainbowdash]

@RBD: How is AJ townish off page 1?

Do you have town reads on PB and DC?

[Rainbowdash]

@RBD: How is AJ townish off page 1?

Do you have town reads on PB and DC?

More like null for now. And you still haven't answered my original question.

These are more important questions and need to be answered first.

Do you think AJ is scum?

[Rainbowdash]

Nope, you are going to give your read before I explain mine.

[Rainbowdash]

Alright then

Vote Bit

Clearly she does not have a scum read on AJ or they would actually be voting for AJ isntead of SD at this point. This begs the question of why they remotely care about that read when not caring about my reads on who they call null. This either means Bit is arbitrarily picking out reads, not voting who they think is scum while challenging my read on them, or wanting me to explain a town read on a town read of theirs. All of which are null to scummy.

The fact that they are refusing to say what the read is makes me think its not just a derpy move but actually motivated by something more than stubborness.

AJ is town because of the post near the bottom of page one where they asked me the question about shutting down reaction testing and then kept the strong reactionary push going on Elmo instead. Plus you know, AJ is always town.

Bit wagon can happen now.

[Rainbowdash]

In all honesty, I don't really get town/scum reads on anyone on 2 pages.

Why ask only about that one then?

You also didnt answer my question about a read on AJ.

[Rainbowdash]

You still arent answer my question about why you only wanted to know about one of my read when apparently you had no read on any of those three, stop deflecting.

[Rainbowdash]

Imagining this replaces imaging you dying firey death.

So Bitmap.

Was in a JK9++ I replaced into and I started reading, had Bit as extreme obvious scum by end of page five. Got a scum PM, was floored bit was not scum, and Bit ended up being the SK. Note for those that were in that game, we DO still claim with tiers and we DO claim early, especially if there are a large amount of VT flips.

Now my second guessing with Bit comes by the fact that Bit when under pressure last time made it really obvious they were a PR early, this time nothing like that happened and they more VT half-slipped. Not sure this is the same Bit who when under pressure immediately went running for something to deflect an attack. That said they are still scummy, but they read like they are playing somewhat differently. I dislke that DY pointed out the VT slip since half the reason I was running up Bit was because a VT claim would have been a solid town tell when anything else was a scumclaim, but oh well, im not sure how you can call that a scumtell from DY either.

Vote Defender

Bit isnt a horrible lynch still, they at least need to actually sheep somepony since we have seen how them scumhunting ends up.
I dont like inte, but im not sure I ever like inte. Would lynch him though here just because it makes game better.

[Rainbowdash]

Cute.

If you want DY lynched try posting something about him that isnt a null tell.

[Rainbowdash]

That doesnt matter.

Why are you voting DY?

[Rainbowdash]

I'm surprised about RBD yet again going for the mass-claim idea.

Thats because its the right play to massclaim early in this setup, especially if a non-goon scum flips or the early deaths are all vanilla. I have called all scum and the SK from dead QT day three in this setup almost entirely based off massclaim. Its so deadly for scum. Wasnt lying about that, even when I "game break" as scum its based on correct theory that I let town take the wrong way or just dont completely flesh out so I can maybe take advantage of it.

SD might actually be scum too here. Post of his attacking inte (despite inte not being really townie) is really ugly looking. Since when is jumpy with votes a scumtell? Its something I know I do a whole lot more as town then scum to the point where I actually have to emulate it a bit if im playing with somepony who knows my meta well.

Defender is just doing nothing while trying to take a "look at me im against the quickwagon" stance, not sure he is commenting on game related things that are tells at all but is doing the 'look town' motions.

Bit should sheep instead of sheparding.

[Rainbowdash]

Well we dont lynch DY today for obvious reasoning. Doc is safest claim but its hard to keep up as scum before massclaim (even after to an extent).

If there is another doc (one shot or not), they protect seklo as well. I think I dont need to go into setup theory on this because its simple.

More later, just got back from a brief V/LA.

[Rainbowdash]

ima go ahead and put you into my town pocket

for now

How? I completely fine lynching soild right now, his last few posts have been beyond awful.

@Mcstab - Why a PR lynch? You saw how that worked in the past when I got the "scummy PR" lynched, leaving DY alive tells us a lot about the setup that only scum would know at this point.

[Rainbowdash]

Rainbow, why have you not answered my questions?

1) It feels like a town question from a "well maybe it would have worked" standpoint
2) She essentially claimed VT in an earlier post without trying. This is a tell I often work with that is way more accurate than picking at random.

Moreover, you will explain the "obvious" conclusions you mentioned in this post. Not everyone is used to the formalities or concepts of this site. I hope I am not just saying that about myself.

Its a semi-open setup. Conclusions can be instantly drawn about the setup by what happens tonight, will explain if im alive tomorrow but really think about it, this isnt really the complex aspect of this setup. Claiming in tiers is where it gets more heavily theoried.

I have a problem with your play, Rainbow. This problem also slightly applies to Applejack as well. However, I fear I may be close minded with regards to Applejack. I just do not trust her. Continuing, Rainbow (and Applejack) you both are calling numerous players town at a very early stage in the game whilst only passively pushing the players you are calling scum. Where is your conviction? Where is your reasoning?

I dont tend to get too riled up about town reads until they are under attack, then I go all loyalty mode and tend to defend them more then they defend themselves. Defender is scum for continually avoiding taking stances on most of the game, no clue why he is voting AJ right now and the only thing he really has commented on is apparently liking Elmo for town because he was victim of a random wagon.

[Rainbowdash]

Those of you who want my meta:

Ask Inte. He's played a game with us both town and one with us both scum.

So instead of talking about the game you say we should listen to the player who is saying we shouldnt lynch you today?

Awesome.

Lynch now?

[Rainbowdash]

Can we not get on about alts? It really tempts me to use team green powers to see if DC is right about no contact with me.

@soild - How well do you think you understand the setup on a theoretical level?

@cart - What parts of 176 are NOT scummy? Looking through it I literally can call him scum for at LEAST three reasons because of it, if I wanted to stretch or call out mild/player dependant tells I can tack on a couple more. It seriously may be the single scummiest post in the entire game up to this post.

[Rainbowdash]

@inte - What is your defender read? Not "VI" but alignment read.

unvote

I need to seriously mull over voting solid who is getting progressively worse and worse but want to see something else first

@defender - What is

your

case on soild?

[Rainbowdash]

Rainbow, are you prepared to give anything remotely specific about me, possibly ask me to address concerns, etc... or are you just going to continue to post vague bullshit like 'that whole post is so scummy scum scummy scum scum scum scum'?

And to answer your last post for him, Defender's case on me was literally

quoting the text of your own vague post

. IE, he has literally no opinion of his own at all.

If you disliked my 'sheeping' so intensely, how can you possibly tolerate Defender's play without being a giant hypocrite?

Thats why im waiting to see what he puts up. Either way I said I have an exact amount of points on you, its not like its something you cant hold me to.

You apparently dont know why I think you are scum though, thats interesting.

[Rainbowdash]

Rainbow, do you actually need to mull over voting Solid when D3f3nd3r, the person you were just voting, votes him as well?

Yes. I was just about to vote solid at that point but the defender vote came out of left field and I need to think about it a bit. As it seemed to be a sheep im not going to hand im everything that I got on solid on a silver platter without letting him say what he thinks first.

You are willing to vote the same person your scum read is voting?

Yes. Im willing to say both of them are probably not scum, but that doesnt mean one isnt scummy town and I need to figure out which one that is.

When defender gives his reasoning I will follow up with mine and probably vote for one of them.

[Rainbowdash]

rbd u aren't scum again are you

Nope. Town this time.

Also im not sure why bit keeps trying to get reactions since its still really obvious they are VT. Really if they claim vig for real chances are they drew SK again.

[Rainbowdash]

Vote defender

What is your reasoning for voting solid?

[Rainbowdash]

Vigs are anti-town. They technically should never shoot outside of confirmed scum/forced win or at times proving they exist in an even amount of players alive. Odd number of players though they are even EV (zero advantage to town).

Its why I outright refuse to shoot as vig, like in this game, if I drew vig I am never going to use it.

Plus there is older study that vigs are more innacurate than a RNG. They are normally a cop out role by the mods thats continually used poorly by players

[Rainbowdash]

at this point in time, would you shoot d3f3nd3r if he was not lynched?

Nope. Never shoot outside of exceedingly rare situations (confirmed scum, forced win, confirmed game goes to and stays at odd numbers)

Vigs will lose town the game far far more then win it.

[Rainbowdash]

That



That needs lynching. About right now.

[Rainbowdash]

See this... this is why half the time I try and make others give reasons even if im on the wagon before they are.

I just have this... this... this ability to make everypony go something like "Wow. Look at her. She is so awesome. I wish I could be something like that - so I should vote with her". Or something like that. Thats what they do in my mind.

Yeah its pretty awesome to be like that - but frustrating at times because im left to judge stuff from a different perspective then most are accustom to so its harder to argue points for and against those who sheep me. Makes winning easier though, especially as scum, even though it helps quite a bit as town if im reading half decent. Plus this time its Bit which makes it all the more confusing to me because of last game where they just took advantage of the fact that I tucked them under my wing (and I was kinda right - they werent mafia) and this change is all kind of twitchy tail.

Awesomeness comes at a hefty price.

[Rainbowdash]

The problem with the defender lynch is that we are arguing over how bad of a player defender is - which defender has admitted. But being a bad player is not the same as being scummy. At this point, I FOS all on that wagon, the case has gone as far as it can go. There are better options.

Actually his last few posts have been entirely contentless but trying to argue when he should get lynched, which isnt something that town should really be concentrating on. This isnt town, and at the very least this isnt helpful.

[Rainbowdash]

Not sure if I have talked about this in this game or not so... claim theory.

In this setup there are roles that cannot exist without a lower one existing first. These roles are what I have come to call second tier roles, while the ones that can exist without having two of the same letter drawn first tier roles. Using the tier system, we actually have a massive hoof up on scum for claiming because it makes it massively risky for them to claim anything but VT.

To claim in the tier system during massclaim, we start with somepony claiming one of: VT/Tier 1/Tier 2 and then popcorn from there with the rest of the game claiming between these three groups. For reference T1 is: 1 shot cop, doctor, 1 shot vig and roleblocker. T2 is: 1 shot roleblocker, mason, vig, 1 shot doctor, cop.

When all players have tier claimed, massclaim of role starts with the T2 ones claiming first and popcorning between themselves, followed by the T1 players doing the same.

From resuts we can see something like somepony who claimed 1 shot RB when there was no RB claim is confirmed scum. The forcing of T2 to claim first increases the chance of catching scum fakeclaiming due to the setup.

THE SETUP THEORY IS VERY VERY VERY IMPORTANT IN THIS SETUP.

When claims/flips start coming, you NEED to look at the wiki page and under NO circumstance do you lie as town. I cannot stress these things enough, I have seen town lose this setup because somepony fakeclaimed VT as a PR and they didnt pay attention to setup. I called every single scum player and the SK from the grave QT because I just had the wiki page open while town acted like they were playing a closed setup and lost a forced win situation where the massclaim had caught all the scum.

Will let AJ lecture you on the honesty portion of this but massclaim by the tier system and done at the right time is unbeliveably crippling to scum in the C9++ setup.

[Rainbowdash]

I am not justifying massclaim today. Heck I didnt even try and have it happen day one in that game but town just wanted to go ahead with it and I was interested to see how it would turn out. The way I orginized massclaim is theoretically correct though, so am bringing it up again. Only other time I have played a game like this I got killed by scum N1 so everything got ignored - not having that happen a second time.

[Rainbowdash]

We ARENT massclaiming, but there is a very specific way we should massclaim in this setup.

@MS - Im talking about it because its the right way to do things and if scum doesnt know how to deal with it, there are quite a few ways they can trap themselves. I have done the exact same thing as scum and town because its an interesting theory move and as scum would give me a couple town points while not hurting me because I know how to respond to it correctly - not too many players know how to though.

[Rainbowdash]

@Bit - Like I told you once already, game is mostly crash lost (save first 10 pages or so before I even replaced in). I do have the green room though for that one. Basically I get NKed the first night, think they claimed day three, Hikari claims VT as cop and basically costs town the game followed by them missing a semi-complex win.

If we arent going to lynch defender solid is a fine vote, defender is just more utility where he is going to be useless either way and there is a mild chance of him being scum to boot. Solid is just scummy.

[Rainbowdash]

Scum knows we have one of

0-2 PRs
3-4 PRs
5-7 PRs

They dont know which right now, but they know more about the setup then we do. I think that massclaim in this setup is best based of how many VT flips occur, the more that happen the more of a killing shot for scum an early massclaim is when there are high PR occurances (note that there is some evidence to suggest mods reroll setups like these to make high roles occur more often).

Day one is probably not best, if there is dead mafia PR (not SK) then tomorrow is a decent massclaim point. If there is a mix of type deaths and no mafia death, then D3 is probably best. It really depends on the situation, I really let it go through in the other game due to curiosity more then anything else because I had a couple PRs called at that point. If a GF dies today/tonight though you 100% are massclaiming tomorrow.

Scum have a very hard time breaking this massclaim move and either requires two scum working together on a claim or a bit of luck depending on how risky they want to make one. I actually have not seen scum claim anything but VT during massclaim in this setup type using tiers (small sample size)

Next few days are going to be busy, but I can almost for sure get that reasoning up on solid sometime today.

[Rainbowdash]

Why am I town-read for you this game?

Lack of you being a strong scum read. I wasnt kidding postgame that when I saw I was scum and you WERENT I was stunned, figured there was no possible way you were town in that game given the first few pages and I was kinda right about it - even though I did just chalk it up to scummy town.

Plus the VT claim, the way it happened is a mild VT tell. Last game you were immediately hinting at non-VT to the point that I dont think you would accidently claim VT as scum outside of it being intentional, and the claim didnt seem intentional here. Most ponies are creatures of habit.

@AJ - I was making a case on solid and I think he townslipped in 176 actually. Not the strongest one ever, but it actually might be a legit one depending on what the setup actually looks like. He makes a really unusal conclusion for scum to be making at one point.

[Rainbowdash]

@Cart - Yes. That is a townie post from Bit. I get a lot of paranoia because outside of somewhat broken games I have not really lost as scum (one was a game where scum made up half the game but because the SK was unendgameable we lost when town missed a forced draw and gave SK the win, one was because setup was broken in favor of town at over 80% rate). Its a mild town tell to be nervous of me because im me but still listen.

@MS, Bit, Cart - Can you actually say why you are voting me? MS seems to be because I am saying same theory (which is 100% correct) that I have as scum in the past, Bit agrees, and Cart because... I made a post that is not genuine half complaining about how I get sheeped and saying thats at times why I dont like immediately putting out a case?

Defender is still the right lynch.

[Rainbowdash]

Your arrogant post was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Its true though, and is starting to effect the way I play. It lets me pressure those who sheep me to get a better read on them instead of just letting them do my bidding. It sounds like you dont like the way I play instead of actually thinking im scum though.

[Rainbowdash]

I would appreciate less defender votes, though. I don't really see him as scum so much, and don't appreciate the policy lynch esque undertones from the rainbow pony.

There is nothing wrong with sem-policy lynching somepony.

I would probably move my vote if he replaced out.

[Rainbowdash]

@AN - After Defender is a mix of inte/MS/nacho. Really am not too sure on defender, maybe slightly more likely town then scum VI, but they are just avoiding anything and some of the way the wagon is moving around makes me feel like its just not supported by scum meaning more likely on scum since its not a wagon that has much justifiable resistance thats not WIFOM.

[Rainbowdash]

RBD your scum game is getting weak

Town game is faltering a bit. Scum game is still deadly as ever.

I If I was wrong in assuming a VT claim, and bitmap already denied it, why are you using that to clear bitmap RBD?

They are going to confirm it when they obviously dont think they have claimed VT? The denying and trying to FIGHT the denying and continually brining it up when I am not only using it as a towntell but explicitly stating that a non-VT claim is a scumtell from Bit in itself if a bit of a towntell as scum would just roll with it most likely.

@inte - Why is defender a town read for you?

[Rainbowdash]

To reach LyLo tomorrow, we'd have 2 vigs, a 1-shot vig, mafia would have their NK, so would a SK.

This is why defender needs to be lynched. His entire play this game has basically been arguing that he shouldnt be lynched today because its not lylo tomorrow. Not reads, not anything really related to the game flow, just that he shouldnt be lynched because its not going into lylo.

[Rainbowdash]

@cart - If you want to make a solid case I no longer agree with for the heck of it I will but its just going to be noise. He made a conclusion though that outside of a very specific situation that already gives us quite the hoof up on scum I just dont think scum would make, ESPECAILLY if DY is town. If DY is town I would be willing to call solid one of my top town reads.

Cant really explain defender better then I have. He is not doing anything but trying to bargin extra days of life at this point, thats what every post made in the last WEEK from him is about. No reads, just "kill me later - not now".

Not sure how much I can go into the other reads since inte is gut but he is somepony I always see as scum so wouldnt be adverse to a lynch of. Know he is very lynchable though.

Nacho is still a bit of a scumread because of the way he is treating inte. The read on him really is surprising since he called inte town when he replaced in, and then placeholders the vote on him which he updgrades to serious (?) at a later point.

MS is just not playing to the MS norm town play. What really is making it stand out for me is how much he is going on meta for me, yet he wants a DY lynch post claim which should to him (going on meta) be something that scum wants and not town. Doctors are SCARY for scum in this setup because they can get confirmed to exist easily and then they have to be NKed away. Plus the fact that he is entirely misrepping the fact that I am not trying to have a massclaim, but also (if he really likes meta) is completely ignoring the fact that I do this exact same approach to the game as town. It feels like he is trying to justify the reasoning to vote me instead of trying to justify a vote based on reasoning.

Also yeah, meta is entirely useless to a player who knows their meta, and I know my scum meta inside and out. Especially when its related to theory since im kind of an egghead when it comes to that stuff.

[Rainbowdash]

@AN - That quote from Nacho is my problem with him. He called inte town shortly before that point. Why sit your vote on a town read? Also yes, im not really against a lynch on inte even though I always read him as scum either way. I would probably go for a MS and nacho lynch first though. Im naming scum reads, not scum teams.

@Cart - If you really insist on me putting up a few of my "why soild is scum for 176 reasons" which again, due to a tell I found while MAKING this case I dont think are even valid

1) This is the tell I changed my mind on so im not going to bring it up, even though it would still be very difficult for soild-scum to actually exploit if he knew what I was talking about.
2) His response to being called out for "easy wagoning" was really bizzare and seemed to basically circle to the point of "its the pro-town thing to do" which is not town thinking in a vast majority of cases. You dont think "as town I would do X" most of the time as town, but instead "I should do X". The first train of thought arrives at is more of what you think as scum. I get moving the game along but this is explained in a manner that doesnt sound much like it comes from town POV.
3) Last part is just discrediting DY instead of responding to him. Its a tactic ive used as scum, if you make the player seem like they have no merit, anything the push automatically loses some merit as well.

[Rainbowdash]

Vote McStab

I am still completely fine lynching defender, his reads post of essenitally "Everypony is varying degrees of null" doesnt do much for me. Im just hoping he gets replaced. Just seems that one is going nowhere and we are running up on deadline fast.

The extent of MS this game is attacking DY even post claim and being really selective on meta when attacking me. I love breaking opens as town (and to and extent as scum) because they usually are vaugely breakable. Ive gotten one recently pulled from the open list because of how breakable it was.

[Rainbowdash]

@MS - When your entire case on me basically falls to something that is, and can be proven to be, a null tell... yeah im going to call you on that shit. It would be like me saying you are scum for lurking (which I never did). Its something that has absolutely nothing to do with alignment. I can list off multiple games I have 'broken' as scum and town. This isnt even breaking, this is just optimizing actions.

Im not saying you are lurking either, I am saying that the two things you are doing is continuing to call a claimed PR scum and voting them (which shouldnt due to 421 be a scumtell? the entire scumteam and the SK voted the claimed PR) and calling me scum for something that I do regardless of alignment. Thats basically all you have commented on of significance.

Being selective on the meta is the worst though. You say "oh RBD did that in 421 so she must be scum" while you actually ignore the game I linked (C9++) where I did the EXACT same thing I am doing here as town. I even show in the dead QT how it pays off and caught the entire team. When you are saying "meta says X" and refuse to look at a sample size of more than one game when I provide you with an identical example (not a 'well this is close' but actually an identical setup to this game), thats scummy. If we are going to go off of single game meta you are obv-scum this game because you are not changing your opinion much as compared to 421.

Also I did note the humor and irony in getting IMMEDIATELY SHEEPED again when I did something. I swear im like the magical pony shepard or something. Even when I dont really want to be I take that role.

[Rainbowdash]

So you view optimizing actions as taking the exact same course of action you did in a game where you were scum and successfully dismantling the town. I have no doubt dead town can figure it out, but all you've proven is that scum should kill those who are most knowledgeable about the setup, and then leave the town floundering. Ever wonder why you died as town? Probably because you were one of the few who understood the setup. So you've either made yourself an early kill if you're town or you're scum and you're leading town astray; neither is optimal play as town.

Now your arguement is..... what? Im scum because I would never propose something that increases my NK chance when - again - I have done that in the past? If I can set town on the right path I could care less if it makes it slightly more likely to get NKed.

Only reason scum made it so far last game is that I was able to take over it completely and keep partners out of harms way. I was convinced we were doomed almost the entire game - and looking at what the setup was, we essentially were doomed. f town wouldnt have massclaimed day one (like I said) and we hit VT first night (granted we wouldnt have since I called Near-PR right) town would have almost had a forced win.

I believe he's town

, but I don't have a vote on him for a reason. Difference between calling scum and lynching a claimed PR is a vote.

I thought he was scum. Either way you were calling for his lynch post claim untill it was obvious it wasnt happening. So what changed there?

And your whole "beneficial for town" shtick is flawed because you were able to figure it out from the dead QT. Many times people figure things out from the dead QT; thing is, they aren't alive to let people know.

Dead QT with no additional information. So would have been obtainable from game as well. If things fall into place scum can get crushed in variable setups.

[Rainbowdash]

And my argument is that you are the only one who seems to understand the benefits of your massclaim, so once you're dead it doesn't matter.

Just look at the setup once claim happens. Its easy for scum trying to fakeclaim to catch themselves. Lets say there is a GF flip and five roles - that means they are all confirmed town. Lets say there is a SK flip and five role claims, one of them is confirmed scum.

You compare it to the wiki page and its VERY possible to break down exactly how much scum is in the PR/VT groups. You saw that done last game.

Either way, you're still trying to defend massclaiming, and you haven't made any distinction between Day One and Two as far as I can tell (or you did once out of the other dozens of sentences you've said).

Im not encoraging D1 massclaim, D2 or not depends on what flips we get. D3 yes, we massclaim there regardless.

And don't suggest the strategy is effective and that's why scum had it hard last time; the strategy turned what should've been a sure win for town into a loss, despite the fact we started with Six PRs (which as you know is in the top 5% of scenarios). You made a lucky town turn unlucky rapidly doing the SAME THING you are now, and would've gotten away with it if Bitmap and I (who, not so coincidentally, you are trying to label as scum) hadn't called you out on it and put a stop to it.

Again, last game I actually never really suggested a massclaim D1. I wanted it later so I could tell partners theory but town just wanted to go for it and I genuinely wanted to see what happened. It also turned a town sided setup into crushing town setup due to Bit doing some of the worst SK play vie ever seen. You do realize we HAD to get a PR lynched day one followed by getting two VT lynched when that pool was mostly scum. You didnt "stop a massclaim" or anything when I explicitly am aruging that we dont masclaim here.

So your case is

1) I did something that makes it more likely to get NKed
2) Gave massclam strategy

Im not going to include the obviously wrong "Tried to massclaim D1" thing since thats not something I ever did and you have never tried to provide evidence of me doing.

Please show me how either of your points are scumtells

[Rainbowdash]

AJ needs to change to Jappleack avatar...



For the current exchange, you are both kinda right. It was fairly obvious that AJ was probably going to move yes, I was expecting the change when I saw the post. How is it scummy though is the question when "I want to reread" was included? Would you expect town to vote without rereading or what there?

[Rainbowdash]

So what if MS wagon was fast? Where are the bad votes on it?

Only ones I can see you arguing as not great are Cart and DY... everypony else is really solid on it so that arguement is lacking some merit. Either way he needs to claim with under 48 hours to deadline and seli essentially claiming intent to hammer.

Most of the scummier players are OFF the wagon which makes it look that much better.

[Rainbowdash]

Im still waiting for you to refute my last couple posts against you really. I made a point and you just have been attacking the weaker ones presented by other players. Try something then "its OMGUS" which is not a defense, thats just a weak attempt at a case.

You do realize if you are town, especially non-VT, playing like you are is just about the most anti-town thing you can do because none of the votes on you are going to move. Not claiming means we essentially are going to end the day on no claim.

Also by same logic... you should not vote AJ. Since to get that wagon given current stances you need everypony in the game but one to vote her. If you are town you really need to realize that somepony voting you does not mean its OMGUS. If that was the case wouldnt best play by scum to be calling the entire game scummy and then they can vote anypony who attacks them because its OMGUS?

@Bit - Look at MS reactions, he is completely ignoring my attacks against him while complaining that his wagon has no merit. Its a lot like how I defended partners - especially RM - in 421, just discredit the votes instead of defending the points.

[Rainbowdash]

Ok then. Scum MS is taking major risk with that type of claim, if he claimed T1 it would have been unmerciful lynch.

unvote
Vote Cart

Not voting AJ, not voting solid, not really liking MS wagon right now (would vote MS over solid). Really no other spot to vote.

[Rainbowdash]

Vote defender

Thats the official "Not AJ" wagon.

If you think AJ is town, he is your vote. If we hit a PR or something I am fully willing to take any blame from it. AJ is prob town from so much, I would hammer MS before AJ right now. No questions asked. I would actually vote anypony but seli over AJ.

@Nacho - I dunno what cagey means but its something that I cant do much outside of gut over. My vocabulary is... for lack of a better word "bad".

[Rainbowdash]

RBD you sure are scarce when AJ is the only option but you get here awful quick when ANY other option comes up.

So is this where I comment that 75% of your posts come after I voted you?

Im defending a town read. You dont like it? Too bad. Loyalty bitches.

MS may actually really be scum here. His entire train of thought since I started the wagon on him is OMGUS and tunnel tunnel anypony who doesnt agree is scum.

[Rainbowdash]

@MS - You said the speed of the wagon on you was indicative of you being town right? Why isnt the slowness of the wagon on defender mean he is scum?

[Rainbowdash]

You even tried to get me lynched after claiming T2. Coming from a player as well-versed in setup spec as yourself, that's a scumtell.

You mean how I unvoted you and say "I think he still may be scum"? You do realize im not subtle on getting somepony I think scum lynched right? Getting inte lynched D1 in 421... THATS how you get a PR lynched.

You're defending someone who refuses to claim, will replace out if a claimed PR isn't lynched instead of her, has voted me on the sole justification of "he made me mad" and has actually outright declared that she will not be reasonable.

You refused to claim for a long period of time. Also you are really putting on blinders no matter what your alignment is. You need to realize this if you are town.

There's loyalty to townreads, and then there's being flailing scum trying to hide the fact that you're attempting to save your partner.

Blinders.

@MS - My other question was not rhetorical. Answer it.
@inte - Umbrages "success" is that everypony thinks he is incapable of doing anything smart (which they are correct about) so just ignore him because odds say he is town.

[Rainbowdash]

What was your other question?

The one about how you apparently consider fast forming wagons to mean the target is town, so why you dont consider really slow ones (persistant defender suspicion) to be on scum.

@inte - Yeah, if you would have claimed an unproveable one it wouldnt have been a bad lynch since its still super rare town does that especially amidst massclaim discussion, but you getting lynched as tracker blew me away. I figured putting all the attention on you as a PR would get the wagon to crumble to an unproveable PR.

@MS - I have only replaced out of games due to annoyance of players as town, never even really heavily considered it as scum. Its probably a town tell.

[Rainbowdash]

@MS - You said the speed of the wagon on you was indicative of you being town right? Why isnt the slowness of the wagon on defender mean he is scum?

Because town don't act in a concerted manner, and town don't know who's town. So slow wagons don't mean scum, but fast wagons show concerted action, which, ESPECIALLY in this case with you and Azusa showing blind devotion to AJ while disregarding logic, are indicative of scum action.

So the fast wagon on AJ means she is town given the blind devotion to you that Bit is showing while disregarding logic?

I REALLY REALLY want to still call you scum here because you pick and choose everything indiscriminantly when it works with what your reads are but refuse to look at it when it works against your read.

Im not voting AJ. Period. Im not even 100% sure I would vote there to stop no lynch.

Azusa you have a decent case built, but that's the first one. You need to learn to stop blindly trusting people that side with you in arguments and start being skeptical of everyone.

Like how you want her to blindly sheep you?

Im almost at the "scum cant be this blindingly hypocritical" with you.

[Rainbowdash]

NOPE LYNCH APPLEJACK

Good luck with that.

What is your case on AJ? No quoting anything from the MS 'case' either. I dont see a case that isnt OMGUS.

MS is just being somewhere between complete tunnel and ass this game, which doesnt at all match up with him as town that I have seen. I literally will not vote AJ even to stop a no lynch at this point when the only one I have any confidence of being town on that wagon is the IC. Closest one to 'town' after that is null-town Bit.

Actually... yeah MS is more likely to be scum than town at this point. Massclaim happens tomorrow if seil dies tonight. If MS claims 1 shot doc you lynch him no questions asked unless setup forces him to be town. Thats because of the reaction to the claim of DY, a 1 shot doc would not react like that... actually he claimed non-confirmable. HAH. MS is scum. Only way to be non-confirmable is if he is a 1 shot doc which means that we would have to believe that as a T2 there was a T1 claim that substanitates his claim and his first reaction is "still lynch it". He is scum and just was going for a claim that would get us off him. Literally anything else is confirmable and his play doesnt match doctor play because after a massclaim if there was no other doctor claim DY would have been 100% confirmed town to him.

Whatever though, all this means is if seil dies tonight MS confirms himself as scum. Now we just see if he wants to try and fight me on that logic and kill seil tonight or if he is going to hope to get lucky claiming something else. Either way he just got himself caught.

@AJ wagon - Read my above two paragraphs. MS is almost for sure scum, meaning AJ is almost for sure town. Defender wagon time is now because there is no way we can get a MS one by end of day, but with MS-scum a defender wagon looks even more promising. Worst case defender is VT because he has basically claimed that asking to be vigged early in the game.

Scum probably mostly in: defender/inte/MS Bet there are two in there, maybe all three.

[Rainbowdash]

good job rbd, you always find a way to make easier targets out to be bad

What part of my logic there is wrong?

MS claims unproveable T2 which means doc which auto wants to lynch a T1 claim of same type. Heck I would never touch a T1 claim below me apart from them being confirmed before a massclaim. So either he is trying to lynch somepony who is somewhat confirmable or is lying about his claim, both which point to him being scum. We arent lynching him today but he is probably scum which adds to AJ-town and defender-scum reads.

[Rainbowdash]

pause for a moment?

It's provable by the existence of a T1 role.

RBD, what the fuck are you talking about?

He has it reversed.

T1 existing doesnt mean T2 exists.
T2 existing does mean a T1 exists.

It would be like being one shot doc. It means that a doctor does exist. A doctor claim means a one shot CAN exist.

I think at somepoint he said the role was not confirmable through action meaning that it would have to be a doc, meaning his attack on what DOES exist from a one shot doc standpoint feels wrong. Even if he thinks DY is scum, if a massclaim happens and nopony else claims doctor - DY to MS as a one shot doc is confirmed town.

[Rainbowdash]

Ok, we have time. Mcstab needs to claim.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mcstab

No...

He just claims BEFORE we massclaim. If he is scum he has to get lucky already. If he is derp town it means scum gets to worry about what he is which given an IC around is huge.

[Rainbowdash]

Bet MS is going to comment on it...

[Rainbowdash]

Not going to lie and say I dont want AJ to be town more than most others, but I do have reasons for having a town read at the same time.

[Rainbowdash]

There is plenty of wagon stuff to go off of though. There was quite a bit of calling him scum early but the wagon went nowhere. Now the wagon on MS has fallen over to AJ and the defender wagon sprung up from the dissenters of that one.

While he hasnt been talking about individuals too much, a lot of us have been talking about him and the wagon having two times in the spotlight does reveal a whole lot about it when we get his alignment.

Also what... thats a "never lynch lurkers" policy?

[Rainbowdash]

You continue to ignore that I think defender is scum for reasons that are not "lurking" dont you?

[Rainbowdash]

I need to enact a policy of "If Dash dies N1, you massclaim D2" or something like that... also town needs to stop fakeclaiming. Seriously. Although ironically it was why Cart was obviously town in this situation, but its still just going to mess stuff up.

Also you should have massclaimed D2, MS was already almost confirmed scum and two NKs made it very important to happen sooner rather then later as if MS was town it just cleared a few off and if he was scum... you wouldnt have wasted a few more days before you lynched him.

[Rainbowdash]

It was two things that should have made the Nacho vote better

1) The vig claim from Cart. If Cart was scum, they would know the vig was a SK to start given the setup. As they knew that, staying with the claim would attract attention of the SK and if they SK ever was forced to hit scum doomed the slot. Town would be more likely (sadly) to just try something like that spur of the moment.
2) Failed hammer by MS. No reason to fail at a hammer like that as scum, which means that Nacho was probably scum because of it. If they hit town, MS just would eat the NK. If they hit SK, MS eats the next lynch. Both give scum at worst a 2:1:1 endgame.

I need to find a way to ensure that my stuff gets paid attention to post my death more. I wanted that D2 MS lynch and if it happened that would have really put town in a better position.