Open 446: C9++ (Avast! Viruses!) - GAME OVER

[Azusa Nakano]

Working on my notes, guys. Will definitely be done by the end of the day, and looking at what I've got so far, I swear it'll be worth the wait.

[Azusa Nakano]

Yo guys, 'sup? So, let's get down to brass tacks here. I've read through the thread twice, in order to hone my understanding, and these are the notes I've got.

Spoiler: Notations

#7 and #8 are the most half-assed "reaction tests" I've ever seen. I'm honestly skeptical that both were genuine. I buy Demon's explanation in #16, which makes me more worried about inte. On his front, #13 just feels bizarre. Was it just a generic question, or did something in Rainbow's response ping your scumdar?

#17- I have a feeling Bitmap and I aren't going to get along.

#23- This is triple-plus bad with a side of potato chips. We're pretty clearly cruising out of the random phase, and you just toss (an improperly formatted) vote out there?

#31- "Solidstate is a great wagon. That's why I'm not voting him nor explaining why people should vote him."

Hey kids, it's time to play everybody's favorite game: Catch the contradiction!

Actually, I find SS more town than most of the people here right now.

In all honesty, I don't really get town/scum reads on anyone on 2 pages. I don't know why you get town vibes this early.

In general, I don't get Bitmap's thought process in the Rainbow-Bit exchange as town. #35 feels a bit cagey, dodging Rainbow's legitimate question with the childish "BUT I ASKED YOU FIRST" defense. Then even after being outright prodded to ask Rainbow about their other town reads... he just sticks to talking about AJ, claiming there's a "weird vibe" between the two of them. (But remember, he doesn't get town/scum reads on anybody two pages in). The sudden jump on Rainbow in #43-#44 also raises eyebrows, considering that he started off asking why Rainbow had gotten a town vibe on AJ- which to me makes it sound like he would be more inclined to vote in that direction- and didn't imply that he found anything odd/scummy about Rainbow at all until that post, after a 9-post exchange. And coincidentally, this suspicion only pops up after Rainbow tosses a vote his way. And then in #45 he singles out two other players that should hop on for no particular reason.

- #47- I'm glad that now that we're out of the RVS Prolapsed Brain has begun to take the game seriously and analyze... oh wait, no, he wasn't even posting that in the right thread. Which shows that PB is outright neglecting this one.

- #52 still makes no sense. So, you're curious about Rainbow's read on Applejack based on a tongue-in-cheek comment made on post 6 and a vague "vibe", but not the other two town reads generated at approximately the same time?

- #54- What was the origin of this hypothesis, inte? Because it just kind of comes out of nowhere and looks like you're pretending to think about the game to me.

- #56- I somehow doubt that townies on an early D1 bandwagon would just let somebody get pushed to L-1, and the person who hammered would be under an insane amount of scrutiny anyway, so chances are that scum aren't going to risk it. This feels feigned.

- #68- you know, inte is saying a bunch of words, but they don't really add up to much of anything. I need some juicy content from your slot. You appear to have had some major reservations about DoomYoshi for a while now. DoomYoshi had made 1 post. Where did that read come from?

- #71- Hey, inte, Bitmap did exactly the same thing that Sivuere just did, and except that he didn't even bother to explain. And you just let it slip by. Why is it okay for Bitmap to do it, but if Sivuere does it, "OMG TEH SCUMZ"? What results came from your "Personality Test" of AJ? What happened to the Yoshi suspicion?

- Inte comes off really bad in his exchange with Yoshi, in my opinion. In #78, he specifically says that Yoshi's "posts" were scummy, without having given any sort of reason as to why. And he specifically dodges Yoshi's point- it's fine to have multiple scumreads, but you randomly assert a possible scumteam, yet suddenly jump to Sivuere... without even explaining why. I assume because you found the vote opportunistic? Even though Bitmap had done the same thing earlier and you just let it slide, because he was wagoning onto your candidate of choice?

Oh, and look at who Sivuere was voting for! Bitmap. I'm seeing a REALLY strong Bitmap-Inte link here.

- Then when inte actually tries to build a case on Yoshi in #80, it just comes across as horribly forced. It's based off a post #4(!) vote, a tongue-in-cheek comment, and his statement that Bitmap has claimed. Yet he doesn't explain WHY what Yoshi said is scummy, he just asks why he interpreted it as a claim.

- #84- Yay! Another player that is saying a bunch of words yet simultaneously contributing nothing! And I hate the buddying up to Elmo.

- #89 feels incredibly town to me, but then whenever I read games RD is in, their posts always feel town to me.

- #104 feels like a very weak towntell to me.

- #107- I'm glad we've decided that running around directing vigs is a good idea. That can only end well. The sudden "bad feeling" towards inte gives me incredibly bad feelings of my own, especially when Bitmap is voting DarthYoshi. You know, exactly whom inte is voting.

- #117 feels off to me, but that just might be because I have nearly opposite reads. The read on Siviure is justified a bit though when Equinox asks "So, why are you voting inte", and he basically answers "Reasons". Pretty much cancels out that little bit of towncred I gave him earlier.

- And as of #129 inte has apparently forgotten entirely about his Yoshi suspicions. Or is Yoshi suddenly not worth a vote anymore either?

- Prelapsed and Defender need to get into this thread. Now.

- Solidstate- never post anything like #137 again. That was all mushy garbage with pretty much no elaboration behind it.

- Post #138 also needs to DIAF. See AJ's 142 for more information.

- Post #145 is... sketchy. There's a few decent questions in there, but Carto tosses out a townread of inte without giving any explanation other than that he "find

no fault in" his posts (As the reader might to be able to guess, I beg to differ) and much of the rest are either basic knee-jerk questions or weird, silly nonsense.

- #147- WHAT THE FUCK SOLID? Remember when you "liked" defender's posts way back in #137? Making it sound like Defender v. Yoshi is a foregone conclusion is incredibly scummy, as is the random swap on Yoshi for a generic lurker lynch. Reeks of opportunism. Defender is scummy, but this vote is so much worse.

- I disagree with #151, but I like Demon Core's reasoning. It feels like genuine effort to me.

- #158 is completely backwards. It's much better for scum to lynch the unproductive, because it takes no effort. They can just point out the lack of content, or the limited amount of content, maybe toss on a bit of pressure, and then cry "Scum!" Keeping the inactives around also makes it much easier to look useful by continually pointing out that they're inactive. And then after making a lengthy case that it's better to lynch lurkers D1 and that we shouldn't keep them around... he suddenly shifts back to saying that he wouldn't mind a Yoshi lynch either. Really feels like he's keeping his options open.

- In my opinion, McStab's case was mostly putting a wide emphasis on nulltells and taking things out of context: the fact that DoomYoshi's comment was a follow-up to something that Bitmap said (which McStab ALSO doesn't criticize Bit for, by the way) really nullifies the scumminess a great deal to me, for instance. I'm split as to whether or not it's a townie that's trying too hard or posturing, though. I also really want his reads on everybody else. The fact that Solid immediately jumps on when he sees an opportunity to push Yoshi to L-1 just makes it look worse.

- I buy Yoshi's claim. I never really bought the case against him, and am getting some townie vibes here and there. He's responded well to the attacks against him, too.

- #169: I hate Equinox not commenting at all on the fact that a claimed doctor just got pushed to L-1, and just says "Hey, remember that thar lurker, guys?"

- #176 is pretty bad. All the mudslinging on the doctor claim is painful enough, but the further claim that voting= scumhunting. No, providing reasoning=scumhunting. Making cases=scumhunting. What you did was not.

- That said, McStab's "I have an idea guys, let's lynch the doctor!" is even worse. The fact that he retracts it and then starts going after solidstate, whom was siding with him, gives him a lot of points though.

- Prelapsed Brain, Defender? You here?

- #196- "Defender is often relatively useless and will need to be lynched eventually. Let's keep him around for a while."

- I like how whenever Defender comes back, he just says irrelevant shit instead of actually talking about the game of Mafia the rest of us are playing. That's great. And by "great" I mean abhorrent and OH MY GOD DOES THIS MAN NEED SOME ROPE.

- I like the entirety of #202until Carto decides that he wants to sheep the pony duo, right after mildly going after Applejack. You found her responses that convincing?

- #214- Any comments on the game there, solid?

- #220- How is RD suspicious? Not seeing anything scummy from that slot thus far.

- #221- How is this man not dead yet?

- #224- Stop trying to keep Defender around, inte. You look worse every time you do it.

- #225- Applejack, you seem to be tunneling on Defender here. What other reads do you have?

- I must admit, solidstate comes off much better in that exchange with inte than inte did. Sounds a bit artificial, but nothing too alarming.

- #234- Wait, you said you were willing to sheep the ponies, but now you aren't comfortable voting the person Rainbowdash is? What?

- #242- Although I assume Rainbow is thinking along the same lines as I am, I would like a case against solid from them. This "yeah, solid is tots scum, ya'll" can only last so long before it irks me.

- Carto raises some great points about Rainbow in #248, and Rainbow's responses are... weak. And I dislike the wording mistake there where they say "both of them are probably not scum" instead of "they are probably not both scum". And I'm not getting this town read on Bit that you are. Now Bit is just floating around and not giving their opinions on anyone or anything.

- #256- the closest thing to a read thus far, and it's an incredibly vague comment that doesn't even tell alignment, and just lists a post number. DIE THE DEATH. SENTENCE TO DEATH. GREAT EQUALIZER IS THE DEATH.

- #261- "Pay no attention to me! There are people that are worse!" That said, the fact that Prolapsed Brain is being allowed to slip by doing nothing is... worrying.

- #275- No. NO NO NO NO.

- #277- lolwagon hop.

- #289- "Oh, hey, let me hop AGAIN!" How the hell is this man town in any way shape or form?

- #290- Bitmap's scumminess aside, Rainbow does seem to be pushing this weird "I'm going to bring up massclaims, the nature of claims, and set-up speculation with no provocation, but I'm certainly not ADVOCATING such a thing! No sir!" agenda, which I don't really like.

- #297- ... Did you ever make a case against Cartographer, inte? If so, I've completely forgotten it.

- I wish I could like #306, because I feel like I have much fewer townreads in this game than I should, but God does Nacho make it hard to. I find a lot of the reasoning rather vacuous, and there is a disturbing lack of actual solid commitment there- I want reads. He finishes with a "You know, a massclaim isn't optimal, but I kind of want to do it anyway" attitude, similar to the kind Rainbow was pushing.

- #310- ... That's all you've got? There are quite a lot more players in this game, Applejack. Reads please.

- #328 feels weird to me too. Like Apple is letting Rainbow convince him to join a wagon that Apple herself had been pushing for a while there. And the Carto vote makes negative sense to me.

- #350: inte, you've been asked for a case against Carto. Give one. And where does the Nacho hate come from?

Okay. Now, overall reads, or tl;dr version:

seilkops: confirmed town, but I need participation from you, or a replacement that will participate. Currently, that confirmed town slot is doing absolutely no good, because the confirmed town isn't really contributing to the game much. I want more from you ASAP.

solidstate: There is a lot that I don't like about solidstate. His reads can devolve into mushy garbage, his flip from Yoshi to Defender and then back to Yoshi was scummy as all hell, and #176 was pretty painful. However... I think I see the towntell as well. So I'll wait for more information about the set up to become clear before I push for a solid lynch.

Applejack: On a whole, I like Apple. The reads themselves have been genuinely backed, even when I don't agree with them. It feels like she's actively pushing the game forward when present, and is trying. That said... I would like a bit more from her. That latest reread is the perfect example- there are only a handful of reads there, most of which go with the public opinion, more or less. I believe in Apple's towniness, but I am expecting more.

McStab: After some initial misgivings about his play (I really didn't like his case on DarthYoshi), I've grown to have a pretty solid town read on Mc. He's clearly putting thought and effort into the posts made, and overall I can at least see where he's coming from when he posts- it feels like a townie mindset. Hope to see more of that.

Carto: Overall, quite pro-town. Basically feel about him the way I feel about McStab, with one or two mild misgivings. (That flip-flop regarding following Rainbow's vote still sticks with me, for instance), and I did have some problems with Siveure; the way he was incredibly cagey about why he was voting for inte is one of my main complaints. Solid town read, with mild reservations.

Nachomomma: Prelapsed Brain was lurkertastic, so there really isn't much to draw from there. Nacho's entrance was rather underwhelming as well. Hoping for more content from that slot soon, and am really interested in that case.

Demon Core: Town. Gut read, mostly. I roughly agree with the thought process shown, when content is provided.

Defender: I don't think I need to enumerate all the things wrong with Defender's postings. However, the niggling concern is that I can't separate VI-town from VI-scum. And as much as I hate inte's pleading to keep defender around and as suspicious as it is, the point itself is valid: VIs should be vigged. That is the only time vigs should shoot. Defender is good as a default lynch, but I can't see myself pushing for it.

inte: Pretty solid scum read, here. I found his "reaction testing" to be incredibly forced and fake. I feel like the suspicion against Yoshi was garbage, and based on absolutely nothing but hot air. The sudden flip to Sivuere was scummy as hell, given that Bitmap had done the same thing and inte had completely ignored it. In fact, bitmap's post was

worse

. As noted, I hate the endless pleading to keep Defender around when inte agrees that we need to remove him eventually. I'd be really happy with an inte lynch.

And speaking of people I'd be really happy lynching...

Bitmap: Out of curiousity, what flavor of Kool-Aid is it that you guys are drinking? Because Bitmap is scummy as hell. In the early game, Bitmap was continually contradictory, and looked awful in the exchange with Rainbow Dash. And the closest thing to content that Bitmap has been providing lately is some 1-2 line posts and a whole bunch of sheeping without making any sort of cases of his own. Like, look at the length of that iso and compare it to the amount of legitimate content within there. It's awful. I get the towntells you guys are putting forward, but they feel incredibly circumstantial to me and they just don't override the colossal waves of scumminess I'm getting here.

Rainbowdash: Ugh. I really want to call Rainbow town; I really do. I agree completely with the Defender pressure, and the tone of the posting just seems like that of a townie. But at the same time... it just always has the sound of someone with an angle, and I just can't seem to tell what that angle is. I dislike that whole bit with the setup speculation- the rebuttals just didn't ring true to me. Carto has raised some other solid arguments as well.

And look at Rainbow's iso. There's a lot of "helpful" set up stuff and defender pressure... and that's basically it. Aside from that, all I see is some back-and-forth with solid, and an explanation that Rainbow has a townread on them. I like Rainbow... but I just don't trust 'em.

QUESTIONS:

inte- What is your case against Carto? What don't you like about nachomomma?

Bitmap- Are there any particular posts of Apple/Rainbow's that get your gut a'twitching? Or can you provide a general feel on what makes them Gut!Scummy?

Rainbowdash- What do you consider the probability that Defender is VI town? VI Scum? If Defender were replaced out, where would your vote go?

seilklops, Defender- What are your reads? If you had to lynch somebody right now, who would it be?

Applejack- What are your reads on inte and Bitmap?

McStab- If you can't get the momentum required to get Rainbow lynched, where would your vote go?

Carto- Same question as McStab. Aside from Rainbow, who do you find scummy?

I can't think of any questions for the other users at the moment.

[Azusa Nakano]

it was forced and fake seeing as i'm not a dayvig.

No. It was forced and fake because you were trying way too hard to look like you were reaction fishing. It didn't feel like a legitimate attempt to do anything, it felt like you pretending to be productive. That should have been obvious, and I have to believe you're being obtuse.

can you seriously say to me that yoshi is being a productive town member and not giggle then, well, you need to re-read his iso. almost every single one of his votes have been opportunistic.

Yep, he's definitely solely been opportunistic. Which is why he just unvoted defender, the obvious opportunistic lynch (the VI who basically nobody has much of a problem with lynching), essentially killing possible momentum, right? It's not as though the wagon was dying down- Applejack had just joined it, making it the biggest wagon in the game. If anything, there was every reason to believe a Defender lynch could easily go through.

But I'll admit, looking back, I hate that initial vote on Defender. It's bandwagony as hell. And the whole "Players being replaced out makes them scummy, am I right?" isn't much better. Thank you for making me look back- I'm not that big a fan of his play lately.

Much of my read is based on his early play, which I insist was far less bad than the rest of you made it out to be, and I personally feel that he defended his actions relatively well. That combined with a PR claim gives him a solid town read in my book. We can talk if he's around in a couple days, 'kay?

[quote="In post 361, inte"Siveure DtTrikyp's vote was an obvious opportunistic and anti-town hunting vote.
call me anti-town, spit at me, and request a PL? sure.
call me anti-town, actively pursue my lynch, then ambiguously switch reasons for lynching me when queried? scummy as fuark[/quote]

And Bitmap just hopping onto your Yoshi vote with absolutely no explanation whatsoever is just the epitome of townieness? That vote was just as opportunistic. Here's a summary of the two posts:

"Hmm... you know, Bitmap's behavior fits with his town meta. However, Rainbowdash does raise some good points, so I suppose I'll join them in voting Bitmap."- Siveure

"lol
vote: DarthYoshi (not a vote)"- Bitmap

Oh, did I say summary? I lied. That was exactly what Bitmap typed. (Well, and an unvote).

Good job continuing to defend Bitmap though. That link between you two keeps looking better and better.

Also, you know what's funny? I mentioned that.

The read on Siviure is justified a bit though when Equinox asks "So, why are you voting inte", and he basically answers "Reasons". Pretty much cancels out that little bit of towncred I gave him earlier.

I'm not criticizing you- it was a long post, and I put it in the section under the spoiler tag. Just pointing out that I did mention it, and did feel that it was scummy.

bitmap is not doing the same thing. he did a faggy OMGUS, but i can see the town motivation in it because of the last game we played. not alignment indicative. i might be convinced to lynch him if someone puts together something thats not an issue with playstyle. so far i've not seen anything genuinely scummy.

Explain the town motivation, or meta if the game isn't ongoing.

PS: I was unaware that contradicting yourself on multiple occasions, providing no content aside from asserting that people are scum due to gutreads that you don't go into in any detail and mindlessly sheep, and suddenly expressing a suspicion of Rainbow only after Rainbow had voted him were all "issue

with playstyle." What a fool I was!

i've played at least two games with d3f3n3r, once as a scum buddy, and one as a fellow townie. both times he was a hindrance to his team and i would rather actually lynch someone that can give us information for us to go off of.

So, he's a hindrance to his team. You agree. So we lynch him and he flips town, we get rid of a key distraction and possible ML target in later days (and now the vig doesn't have to shoot him), and if he's scum... we lynch scum. I'm really failing to see why you have repeated pushed to do anything BUT lynch him. If all you were saying was "Well, defender is a lynch I could agree with, but I do feel like we could be going in another direction given the possibility of a vig, and that's definitely something we should explore"- you know, what I've established as my position, but you're not saying that. You're say "Let's ASSUME there's a vig, and not lynch him. 'cause it'll be a useless lynch."

See the difference there? And see why that could kind of look scummy, or you trying to keep a player you can mislynch at a more opportune time alive?

you stink of opportunism.

You really like that word, don't you?

Also, yes. I'm opportunistic. That's why I pushed to lynch Defender. Wait, no I didn't do that.
Maybe that's why I pushed to lynch Cartographer. No, I didn't do that either.

The only person with a wagon I might be willing to lynch is Rainbowdash, and I don't believe I even advocated lynching them in that post, just said that I really distrust them. And I'm currently pushing for you and Bitmap: somebody with 1 vote and one with zero votes, respectively. What I'm doing is the opposite of opportunism.

worse, you replaced into elmo's slot who i always read as scummy (similar to d3f3nd3r)

I call shenanigans. Here are your posts that mention Elmo:

why speedlynch elmo? what history do you have with him?

Oh, wait. I'm sorry. That's the ONLY post you've made about elmo. Until I show up and call you scum. Yeah, this reeks of OMGUS. Why did you never mention this "scumread" until just now?

[quote="In

inte- What is your case against Carto? What don't you like about nachomomma?

my case of based off Sivure's actions. they were terrible enough for me to have a 99.96% scum read on him.
i hate getting stuck with my replacement's actions, but idk if i'm called a hypocrite.[/quote]

Sivure wasn't particularly townie. That's fine. What do you think of Carto's actual play? Because that's what I'm basing my town read on.

[quote="In wat? did you even read nacho's posts?

also inte is town.

I want to vote inte so badly right now.
Cartographer is being too town right here, so I suppose I can't vote him now.
Whatever, this can be a placeholder for later.

Vote: inte

[/quote]

You realize people change their minds upon rereading and current postings, right? Like I did to some degree above with Yoshi?

I want you to diagram exactly how that was beneficial for Nachoscum. Cartographer had just made a lengthy case against Rainbow, pushing them to three votes. Applejack had just jumped to Carto, pushing them to three votes. And therefore Nacho... votes you, somebody who had none. He's going against momentum and drawing attention to his vote by picking somebody who wasn't really being picked on. He said he would make a case, so I'll see what he's got.

You know, I was going to wait until everybody answered, but I know I'm not going to get a Bitmap lynch today, and your response just cemented my dislike of you.

Vote: Inte

@Rainbow- Hmm. 'kay. I'll have to think about that response a bit.

And Yoshi, I've come up with some questions for you-

Why did you vote Defender and switch off solid? What convinced you that solid was less likely to be scum? Why do you believe that scum would be more likely to replace out than town?

[Azusa Nakano]

Oh, blargh. Tags got completely fucked up there. That's what I get for not previewing.

@Mod- Any way you can fix those wayward quote tags?

[Azusa Nakano]

I switched because I felt the game was stalling and I was unable to convince players to join. After joining, I got cold feet for being on a case that is really just a coinflip for me.

My gut is telling me Inte is town, but your case is pretty convincing. I am going to have to mull this one over. Your noticed connection between inte and Bitmap is the most promising part.

The case on RBD seems curious. Almost everyone is attacking it from a different angle. My angle: If I was wrong in assuming a VT claim, and bitmap already denied it, why are you using that to clear bitmap RBD?

Fastposted by inte: I know it is easier to see things from your own perspective, but that isn't the reason I unvoted.

[spoilers= My love letter to inte. <3[/spoilers]

No. It was forced and fake because you were trying way too hard to look like you were reaction fishing. It didn't feel like a legitimate attempt to do anything, it felt like you pretending to be productive. That should have been obvious, and I have to believe you're being obtuse.

and what about Demon Core? he did the exact same thing (hyperbole, in case you try to spin this against me), the post before, yet you make no mention of him. actually you read him as a town gut-read and you agree with his though processes. so is this a point for or against me?

You really should check out underneath the spoiler tag. I actually did mention him and explained what I perceived to be the distinction-

#7 and #8 are the most half-assed "reaction tests" I've ever seen. I'm honestly skeptical that both were genuine. I buy Demon's explanation in #16, which makes me more worried about inte.

so are you in favor or against the d3f3nd3r lynch? as far as i can tell you agree with me, but this seems to me a big point in your case.
are you criticizing the way i said it? if so, thats a playstyle issue.

You don't see a distinction between "I think we should lynch Defender if I can't get enough votes on one of my preferred candidates, otherwise I'd prefer a vigging" and "I don't think we should lynch defender, let's wait and see if the vig kills them."? Because there's a pretty big difference there. If that's not what you mean, then you're being incredibly unclear.

right, its not like he unvoted 7 posts after i called him out on another opportunistic vote. theres no way he would unvote after that.

I suppose, unlike you, I don't think Yoshi would do something I consider to be phenomenally stupid. In your scenario, here is how it goes:

Yoshiscum sees a bandwagon reforming on Defender, and thinks that he can hop onto it. Thus, he votes for him after Applejack joins the wagon. Carto asks him for information about why he phrased that post the way he did, but he ignored it, because he has no excuse for the incredibly opportunistic votehop. Then you- somebody that has been calling him scum pretty much the entire game, calls the vote opportunistic and Yoshi panics, deciding that he has to unvote under this overwhelming pressure.

Can you explain how this fits at all? Why would Yoshi ignore the questioning of one person, but then suddenly decide that you questioning the vote is just TOO MUCH and that he has to unvote now? It's an incoherent thought process.

[quote="In ? do you always mention people that you have a hard time reading? i've played with elmo prob 4 or so games before and every one of them have been near VI tier play. hence i always read him as scummy[/quote]

I would, yes. It kind of helps to be transparent and explain how you feel about each player. And if you have trouble reading Elmo, it might be a good idea to bring that up. After all, somebody else could be good at reading Elmo and be able to point you to any scum or town tells they've committed thus far in the game. It does no good to just hide reads or not mention them- sharing information is always beneficial to the town.

[quote="In most of it i didn't read[/quote]

... Wow. You are willing to call somebody your main scum suspect when you don't even read most of their content.

Why is there not a wagon on you?

[quote="In i didn't even post in the time between his stance flip
yeah man sure people can change their reads, but i took "inte is town" as "inte is obvious town and shouldn't be ever lynched"
confident statements like that always have larger connotations.[/quote]

I disagree, firstly. That is a play style and writing difference. For instance, people often make declarative statements like that based on gut, which I'd hope you agree is hardly an inflexible, constant force. It all depends on the player and the way they play.

Anyway, if you look, nacho's reads had changed between the two posts. For instance, he had flipped on whether he thought Yoshi, somebody you are attacking with a great deal of fervor, was likely to be scum. That's going to have a domino effect on the rest of the reads, due to their interactions. But I'll wait and see the case Nacho produces before I pass further judgment on the matter.

[quote="In it benefits him by attempting to get one of his proponents to his buddy's lynch, lynched[/quote]

So basically, instead of putting you on the NK list, he's going to attempt to start a bandwagon on you a week before deadline, when there are various other lynch choices available (including Defender in particular, whom would be an incredibly easy scum target, unless you want to assert a Yoshi-Nacho-Defender team), because you have a suspicion of a scumbuddy that is not gaining any traction, and is not likely to in the near future? Why would he feel the need to defend Yoshi like that; somebody who currently isn't particularly in need of aid? Especially given that Yoshi's eventual lynch is more or less inevitable.

By the way, you're begging the question here. Can you make a case for a Yoshi-nacho scumteam? I mean, his position on your alignment and Yoshi's alignment has flipped. You got anything else?

[quote="In actually bump Azusa to an alternative to a lynch today[/quote]

Sweet story bro. Got a case?[/spoilers]

I switched because I felt the game was stalling and I was unable to convince players to join. After joining, I got cold feet for being on a case that is really just a coinflip for me.

Do you mean the defender "case"? Because you didn't really pressure anybody to join, there. You just went on and went off. Also, why did you not respond to Carto's question to you back on Page 14?

@Defender: Post content. Now. You're giving me no reason to continue to hold my opinion that we shouldn't lynch you. You may think that we shouldn't lynch you because we're a ways from mylo, but from our perspective, that is a perfect reason to lynch you. Prove useful or your bandwagon WILL start up again. We're basically only not lynching you out of necessity because of the option that you're going to die anyway.

[Azusa Nakano]

I am NEVER NOT PREVIEWING MY POSTS EVER AGAIN.

[Azusa Nakano]

im going to stop the walls now

Sounds good. Will definitely make my formatting issues easier. :p

Would still love to hear a case on me, though. What points do you believe I have not answered to your satisfaction? What do you otherwise find scummy about my posts?

[Azusa Nakano]

I'd be happy with an Applejack lynch, and I could live with a Defender lynch. My main problem with a Defender lynch is that my main scumreads are the ones pushing his lynch right now; not that he's doing a particularly good job defending himself or finding scum, but I think his flip could help either solidify or dispense of my scumreads on RBD and Applejack.

This is the first time I've heard about Applescum from you. Care to elaborate?

Open 421

Meta becomes absolutely worthless once the user in question is aware of it. Thanks for playing, though.

RBD is a strong player and the fact that AJ has been following RBD around makes me feel that one or the other is scum. Also, RBD is trying to pull the same shtick all over again.

Thanks for the explanation of your reads. Nothing substantial, but at least you committed yourself to some kind of elaborated opinion. Makes me feel better enough about you that I'm really comfortable with an inte lynch today.

Asuza asian name, when did you compile those notes? Were you watching the game before you entering it?

All my notes were composed after it was confirmed I would be entering the game. Any particular reason you're asking?

At this point I am calling D3f3nd3r town because of his obstinate refusal to do anything. Unfortunately he may have to be killed despite my opinions about his alignment.

I can see where you're coming from, but being obstructionist is a nulltell at best, in my book.

Where is everyone deriving this mystery town tell about solid? Asuza, why would you not want your town tell clarified, since you only "think" you see it? You want the setup clarified first? Solid's alignment is not related to the setup. Are you all saying he said something about his role that would be a town tell?

I'll clarify. I can't be sure that we're talking about the same thing, and the tell is hardly a sure indicator of alignment regardless. A decent one, but certainly not a perfect one. I don't want the town tell clarified because discussing the setup and role possibilities/probabilities does not seem that beneficial to me at the moment (it bugs me that Rainbow is so obsessed with discussing it), so I don't want to directly explain what I believe the tell to be.

How do you believe Apple is backing up her reads genuinely when she completely voted me for bogus reasons thinking my wagon would go somewhere.

It's worth noting that there's a difference between an argument being genuine and an argument being strong. I don't find the case that Apple pushed to be particularly compelling, but the reasoning behind it: the shift in 202 and 234 which I noted myself, a dislike over your predecessors play (which I completely consider valid, there are one or two aspects of Siveure's play that were weak at best), and a feeling that you were fishing for the towntell Apple found re: solid (which it feels like you still kind of are doing). Overall I don't find the case compelling, but I find it to be a logically sound one that a townie would make.

The fact that she then unnecessarily switched off you back to Defender once she claimed that it felt like her question was answered also gives her some points. It makes the pressure feel more genuine.

I believe this is the fourth time that someone has expressed dislike for my Rainbow sheep, then fear of Rainbow. Look through my iso and Crtl + F rainbow. My response is to inte and I explain my actions there. Please read.

Your response was logically sound. My dislike of it is solely based on gut feeling, so sorry if you don't like it. I try to keep my arguments as logically-based as possible, but emotional responses are going to creep in now and again. It just feels incredibly weird to me, even when defended. Just as although Rainbow has explained their reasoning for some of their actions, I find a good deal of those explanations unsatisfactory. Although this is mostly based on dissatisfaction with the overall logic behind the posts, there is some gut feeling that Rainbow is just making it up as they go along as well.

I am curious about your inte read.

I'm unsure if you mean your interested or you desire more elaboration. Because between my notes and summary basically cover my feelings about inte, and some of the shaky logic in his responses does not make me feel any better. I also still believe that his sudden turn on my slot feels like a sudden OMGUS, and not legitimate suspicion.

And I basically concur with what you're saying. Inte seems very hesitant to actually make any cases, here. In order to find anything resembling a cogent case, you have to go all the way back to Post #80, and I maintain that the arguments there were forced as all hell. Back in the present, the closest you get is that you're scummy because of things that Val did (the only thing that he's mentioned that I can find is the vote sheeping Rainbow, and I maintain that Bit's vote was worse), and the closest thing that I can find on a case regarding Nacho is that he went from believing that inte was town to inte being scummy without an explanation. Which feels rather OMGUSy by itself.

If I'm missing any points inte, please quote them. But I'm looking through your iso right now, and I don't see any.

[Azusa Nakano]

@Carto- Not too relevant, but I'll respond regardless- I suppose I'm technically an alt, but it's entirely irrelevant, because my original account is old and hasn't been used in... ever. Besides, I'm positive I never played with any of you. The only person I don't know about is Dash, but that's just because I don't know their main account. Most of my experience solely comes from reading games. As for why I joined... *Shrug* I saw the game needed replacements, and I hate to see that. I despise it when people flake when I'm reading (somewhat ironic, given my history), and a lack of representation in slots just leads to the game stalling. So I decided to volunteer.

I'm still not sure how important this is, particularly the latter question. Are you simply asking for meta purposes?

@ Rainbow- This feels a bit cagey to me. I want it clear- you have a gut scum read on inte, but you aren't particularly convinced of anything by it because it's typical? However, given that gut scum read, you wouldn't mind an inte lynch?

And your reasoning bewilders me. You are basically echoing inte's argument... whom you say you have a gut scum read on. So, because he now believes that somebody you seem to be implying you think is scummy, and wouldn't mind being lynched, is scum... you have a scumread on him? And that isn't a completely accurate representation of the course of events.

Here's what nacho said-

I want to vote inte so badly right now.
Cartographer is being too town right here, so I suppose I can't vote him now.
Whatever, this can be a placeholder for later.

To me, this reads "I find inte scummy, but I don't feel/don't have the time to make a case right now. So, since I find him scummy, I'll just set my vote down here temporarily."

Hence, it was always a "serious suspicion", it was just how far Nacho was going to go in order to elucidate said suspicion.

Doctors are SCARY for scum in this setup because they can get confirmed to exist easily and then they have to be NKed away.

So how do you feel about inte's continual pushing for a Yoshi wagon, to the point that he had Yoshi as #2 on his List 'O Lynches? In fact, Yoshi is probably the player he's talked the most about all game.

And how do you feel about my statement that aside from your Defender arguments, you have not provided a great deal of content in this game? The fact that you didn't comment on it almost made it feel like you were conceding the point.

@Yabba- That's fair. The posts are probably beyond repair, anyway.

I should probably let others post a bit more, but the thing is that I have so much free time at the moment, and everybody keeps posting things I want to comment on.

[Azusa Nakano]

@Bitmap- What don't you like about McStab?

@DarthYoshi- I don't think an explanation is necessary in terms of game mechanics. There are various out-of-game reasons people flake- perhaps they simply lose interest. Perhaps RL issues come up (that's essentially what happened to Demon Core). Perhaps they are just in too many games and can't keep track of this one anymore. Being replaced out is simply a nulltell, due to the various factors involved that we aren't privy to.

@Rainbow- And in that very same post, he basically says that it switched to a scumread. Why did it switch? We don't know yet. Nacho said he would make a case (which I really want to see soon, Nacho). He wasn't parking his vote on a townread anymore.

This whole attitude towards Nacho is concerning me. It's not that your defending inte here- I'm basically doing the same thing with Nacho. It's that you're essentially repeating inte's argument in order to do it, and ignoring various things that I perceive to be rather gaping flaws in your reasoning. It would imply that you're not reading the posts closely enough, and I know you're a better player than that.

That said, your solid case is decent.

[Azusa Nakano]

'kay, we're not lynching Defender today. Nacho gets massive townie points for flipping back to town on inte because it would have been much more convenient for Nacho scum to remain consistent here. Thoroughly against a Nacho lynch as well.

My main concern is that there is definitely scum among my town reads, particularly given that most players disagree with my Bitmap suspicion.

Given that my weakest one is solidstate (really it's only based on a tentative read on a single post that I didn't like anyway), it's the one I want to flip on the most. And looking back at #372 after Nacho pointed it out, it's really pretty awful. "Hey guys, since the consensus is that Defender isn't a good lynch, I'm not going to actually stick to my guns and keep voting him. No, instead I will unvote despite not really having another solid suspicion, while leaving the backdoor open to hop back on the moment it becomes convenient to do so."

I'm really not liking Rainbow at the moment, but solid and Bitmap's stance on Rainbow does not give me goodfeels when it comes to a Rainbow lynch. So I can't help but think it's mostly just paranoia because I don't feel comfortable putting any faith in Rainbowtown. On the other hand... inte has said nothing about Rainbow in this game. At all. GAH.

I'll keep my vote on Inte at the moment and hope people come around, but I really feel like I need to do an iso on Rainbow and my townreads that aren't Nacho.

[Azusa Nakano]

rbd - leaning town and i wont explain my reasons why

Hold the phone.

lynch order:
nacho/yoshi/Azusa Nakano/RBD (for something i just noticed, thanks azusa)

yeah way too many

scum reads

RBD your scum game is getting weak

No. Seriously. Why is this guy town again?
(The difference between you and Nacho is that Nacho agreed to explain his reasoning, and proceeded to. You just steadfastly stated that you wouldn't, which is the antithesis of helpful.)

[Azusa Nakano]

yeah sure man i can't change reads either. nope not allowed

So, let's see here. (My apologies for falsely claiming you'd said nothing about Rainbowdash, btw. I always think of them as Rainbow, so I didn't think to check for rbd. If I missed any other comments, let me know.)

In every earlier post in which you mention Rainbow, you either state or imply that you think they are scummy, without giving any reasoning. Now suddenly you've swung around and said that Rainbow is town, without giving any reasoning. In fact, outright refusing to. You're right. This is completely innocuous. I'm just confused- if you found a towntell strong enough to override a feeling you seem to have had for a good chunk of the game... why are you refusing to share it? How is this pro-town in any way?

Admittedly, the only way I see it benefitting intescum is distancing from a Rainbowtown lynch, that doesn't make it not weird as hell.

And I've already explained why I consider this vastly different from the instance of Nacho, although here we also have a larger sample size, thus making the sudden change even weirder. Also, what happened to Nacho being scummy because he changed his mind on you without explanation? Or is it only scummy when other people do it?

[Azusa Nakano]

Given the fact that pretty much everybody has at least one person they want to kill more, I'm not getting an inte lynch, so I'm moving on. (Also, I'm sorry inte, I completely forgot about #13, where you also seem to imply suspicion of Rainbow, and #68, which was complete and total fluff which said nothing.)

Reread my townreads. I won't post my notes again, although they are far more succinct and fragmented this time. Applejack and Carto are still town. I misjudged Demon Core- he's basically null in my book now. A lot of active lurking and fluff. Solid is a slight scumread, primarily for reasons already given. However, his cases in #420 are actually really good. Yoshi is still town, although not as sure as I was before.

Also, McStab is scum. Here's why:

McStab lurks through the beginning of the game, and his first real content is the case against Yoshi. As I said in my original post, McStab's case against Yoshi was weak as all hell. Based on stretches, nulltells, and taking things out of context. Feelings toward this hasn't changed. It's pretty easy for scum to spin nulltells into scumtells, and although clueless town are going to stretch and take things out of context, it's still scummy to do it. He then never responds to Yoshi's defense, essentially implying that he agrees that the case was based on nothing. When Yoshi presses him on the matter, he still doesn't respond. The "Hey, let's lynch the claimed doc" is awful for already established reasons.

I also completely misinterpreted #183. It was actually a snipe at Applejack. McStab points out what he considers to be a double-standard, but never elaborates on if he finds it scummy or not. He also does seem to slip in a snipe at solidstate's behavior in here, but he doesn't follow up on it ever. He doesn't explain what his read on solidstate currently is... nothing. He then never brings it up again, and seems to completely forget about Applejack until the latest post, where suddenly she's a top lynch candidate. Why? No explanation.

After promising more content, he vanishes for another three days. After that, he's solely focused on Rainbowdash, solely based on theory meta. That's it. No comments on the actual content that has been posted by Rainbow. He then relies on the meta of one game to declare Rainbow to be scum, and basically completely runs with that. It's just incredibly weaksauce and forced as all hell, just like the other case.

Also, his reads are incredibly few and far between and except for Rainbow, Applejack (with no explanation), and Defender (except not really. He said he'd be okay with a defender lynch, but there is no explanation on WHY he'd be okay with the lynch in the first place), he hasn't commented on anybody. At all.

I should never have given that townread, it was complete nonsense. I like this wagon. Die.
UNVOTE: Inte
VOTE: Vote: McStab

[Azusa Nakano]

So, basically, I note that I am concerned about my townreads. I state that I'm going to reread my townreads in ISO because I'm sure that there's scum amongst them, my primary suspicion being solid. I then proceed to do this. After looking at the evidence, I then make a 3 paragraph case explaining why I now believe you to be scum, noting that one of the main reasons I had given you townpoints in the first place was invalidated because I hadn't read your post correctly due to a quote error that partially caused a misinterpretation on my part. Hence, due to the discoveries I made via viewing you in ISO, I now believe you to be scum. The "about-face" possesses a logical flow.

Spoiler: Response

Solid doesn't believe that your case against Yoshi is a point against you. Rainbow doesn't believe that your case against Yoshi is a point against you. I do. So there's one difference. Neither Rainbow nor solid comment on the amount of reads you have made all game. I did. Difference #2. Neither Solid nor Rainbow commented on #183 and why I find it odd. I did. Difference #3. And yes, I did agree with the others on basic ideas. That's because I believe(d) them to be valid points.

I'll begin by stating that your initial comment regarding the derailment of the Rainbow wagon, and that "2/3 of the people on the wagon are people you pushed on earlier" are both just flat out nonsense. Here are the people currently on your wagon- me, solidstate, and Rainbow. I was voting inte. Solid wasn't voting anybody. Rainbow obviously wasn't selfvoting. The people voting Rainbow were you, Carto, and Bitmap. None of them have changed their vote. As for your second claim, you hadn't pushed on me or Solidstate at all. All you did to me was answer my questions, and you yourself state that you have a nullread on solidstate. You also haven't done anything close to "pushing on him".

That was spin at its finest.

Oh hey, speaking of spin...

Your sudden about face from a townread on me and my "genuine efforts" to number one scumread on a scum-motivated wagon

The wagon is made up of me, Rainbow, and solid. You think Rainbow is scum. Solid is null. From the way you worded your post, you didn't think I was scum until this vote. So... how is this a scum-motivated wagon again?

I'll concede the lurking point. On one of the times in which you don't post, you didn't make any other posts on the forum, and the first and third time, you make very few. I should have checked that, I didn't. That was my error.

Now, your comments on the rest of my points?

Also LOL at those of you considering brevity and not giving up all my reasons for reads as scummy; you're easily manipulated by scum if you giveup all your townreads.

lolno. Being open with the town is only beneficial, and causes you to become more accountable later on- if you flip-flop on reads (as you argue that I am doing, for the record), you now have to elaborate on why you are doing it. There have been multiple cases in this game alone where somebody has been pressured because they changed from believing that somebody was town to somebody being scum, and vice-versa. It also reveals your thought processes much more clearly, and thereby allows the town to determine if they are more natural. I'd be willing to feel that this is a playstyle difference, except for one key point that I will discuss in a second. Your baseless assertion is certainly noted, however.

That key point? Let's go over the reads you have discussed- Defender. Looking back, you do state that he "hasn't done a good job at finding scum/defending himself." Which counts as a read, I guess, even if it's vague as all hell. Now let's look at Applejack. You didn't elaborate on this read until you're called out on it. Provide me one comment where you even imply Applejack to be scummy pre: #384. The closest is pointing out something you consider to be hypocritical. You don't elaborate on why that is scummy, or even say that it is. Just... kind of point it out. Also, as you note... this has nothing to do with your scumread on AJ. So it's completely irrelevant anyway. The last ones are Rainbow and Yoshi, and I maintain that those cases are just bad.

What are the reads you provide in this new post? You comment on solid, stating that you have a nullread. Of course, you don't elaborate on why. And any disclaimer about elaborating on townreads doesn't really work here, because you both don't consider solid to be town, and were willing to give your read on him. You also give a read on me. You don't actually comment on any of my prior content. I'm only scummy because I voted you after two other people did and you feel that my case is full of stretches and misconceptions. Even though particularly solid cases can't be made on D1 anyway. Cool story.

And that's it. You honestly believe that it's not anti-town to not discuss your thoughts about more than 6 players in a game, while not even explaining one of them, and being incredibly vague on a second?

My case was strong enough to push Yoshi to have to claim, so I don't think your standards of it being "weak" are quite correct. I still do want to lynch DoomYoshi; I don't think he's a doc, and it's an easy enough claim to make, particularly because if he gets counterclaimed the real doc gets outed.

I completely disagree that a weak case can't end up pushing somebody to a lynch, especially on D1. You yourself argue that your case against Applejack is "not a great argument" and that "Day One is rarely a slam dunk". So you can be persuaded by weak reasoning that Applejack is likely scum, but if anybody is persuaded against Yoshi... it can't be that weak! Because people were persuaded by it! Glad you get to have it both ways. If you want, I can break your case down point by point and explain why it is weak as all hell, and full of streches, nulltells, and spin. But this post is long enough as it is.

But why don't we actually look at the timeline. As of Post #157, there are already four votes on Yoshi. You then make your case on #159. Solid then jumps on in the next post, and states that he already did have problems with Yoshi, and was simply "willing to accept" the "

cases

" offered, indicating that it wasn't just your case that supposedly convinced solid anyway. Yoshi then claims right after solid's vote. Your case caused one user to change their vote, who states (or at least implies) that it was not at least solely due to being persuaded by this case.

But you're right. I'm the one misconstruing facts here. I'm the one spinning.

My read on Applejack is largely associative with RBD, who I find scummy, and that he pushed the counterwagon to Yoshi, another scumread of mine. Is it not a great argument? Sure. But Day One rarely is a slam dunk. If people won't go for an RBD lynch or a DoomYoshi lynch, Applejack is the next best.

And you couldn't bring up this associative tell while you were attacking Rainbow? Why? That seems like a perfect time to bring it up. As for the counterwagon... I have to assume you mean back when she was voting for Defender? Because that also occurred before you began your attack on Rainbow. Yet, again, you don't bother to bring it up.

TL;DR- The response and new-case against me are both based on flagrant misrepresentation of the facts and utter spin. F. Would not read again.

I'm also more skeptical of my scumread on Rainbow. I will elaborate in a later post, as this one is long enough already. It's mostly based on associative tells which, while not perfect, do make me want to wait on a Rainbow lynch until I can do further analysis. I wasn't that jazzed about it in the first place regardless.

[Azusa Nakano]

As for solid joining the wagon, I hadn't noticed. I'm sure he legitimately thinks I'm scum, since, you know, he's the other wagon right now and is looking for a way to survive. No motivation for him to try and find me scummy in there, none at all!

That has nothing to do with either of my points. Here are two things you asserted.

1. I'm scummy for joining a "scum-driven" wagon.
2. "2/3 of the pushers

on

[your] wagon" are people you pushed in the past.

Given the fact that solid (a nullread) is one of the three people on your wagon, and despite your harping on Yoshi liking it he hasn't even joined it yet (and only posted a one-sentence quotation that amounts to: I approve of this wagon), both of those statements are wrong. Which gives me two options: Either you aren't paying close enough attention to who exactly is on your wagon and why, or you were trying to spin those facts so that I, the third member of your wagon, look scummier. And the first seems unlikely, considering that you made a lengthy post devoted to analyzing that wagon. You discuss none of the other points I made/my responses. Are you willing to concede all of them?

And really? After devoting an entire post to rebutting the points made against you by the people on your wagon, you didn't know that solid was on it? I call shenanigans.

@Yoshi- First, I wish to go back to go back to something earlier- what did "Ok, perhaps I am wrong about solid." mean?
As you have seen, I don't like either solid or McStab. Give me a case as to why we should lynch solid first.

@Solid- Given how Rainbow is one of the main players you've really been poking at lately, and don't particularly trust even if we're not lynch her today, how comfortable are you with joining a wagon she's leading?

[Azusa Nakano]

Good. You want to dance, McStab? Let's dance.

Spoiler: You're my bestest buddy evers McStab

1. He argues the wagon isn't motivated by scum/people with alternate motives.

No. I argue that you are being incredibly dishonest when you initially assert the following-

I love how quick the wagon falls apart on RBD and switches to me when she does a shitty OMGUS vote.

This implies that the people now on your wagon were initially on the RBD wagon. This is false. This is a point you didn't comment on in either of these responses.

Nah, RBD and DoomYoshi are pushing these cases against me because I've pushed both of them as scum and now is there chance for OMGUS revenge.

This implies that DoomYoshi is on the wagon and pushing for your lynch. This is false.

DoomYoshi's case on me amounts to lurking. It sucks, and is OMGUS motivated. He backed off my attack earlier, but now that he thinks he has backup he's going after me again. NOT REAL SCUMHUNTING.

RBD misconstrues the case on me as "selective meta". This is, again, OMGUS, as I've defended myself against her manipulative and shallow accusations.

Azusa does a total about face and tries to excuse it using a synthesis of both arguments. While this alone doesn't warrant a vote, a flip by RBD or Doom as scum does warrant a lynch on Azusa.

It's so funny that 2/3 of the pushers on my wagon are people I pushed hard on earlier, and now they're acting as though they're totally impartial. lulz

[/quote]

You don't even comment on solidstate being on the wagon, and state that "2/3 of the people [thus excluding me] on my wagon" are people I've "pushed hard earlier" which implies that the wagon consists of Rainbow, Yoshi, and I. That is false.

What is your defense when I bring this up?

As for solid joining the wagon, I hadn't noticed. I'm sure he legitimately thinks I'm scum, since, you know, he's the other wagon right now and is looking for a way to survive. No motivation for him to try and find me scummy in there, none at all!

That's just pathetic. You bother to try to refute the arguments of everybody on your wagon... yet conveniently forget who it is that is actually, you know, ON THE WAGON? It also conveniently allowed you to smear me as scum, which would have been difficult otherwise, given how you hadn't mentioned me at all. Which isn't OMGUSy at all, no sir!

2. He concedes the lurking point to me. So that facet of his argument has collapsed totally.

Nice try. Let's look at your iso, shall we?

#116- Promise for a catchup post.
#159- Case against Yoshi. (Oh, don't worry. I'm getting to that.)
#163- Fluff.
#177- Pushing for a claimed doc to be lynched.
#181- Non-game post.
#183- Pointing out what you perceive to be hypocrisy on Applejack's part. You don't explain whether it is scummy, anti-town... what. You just say "Hey guys! Look at this!". That is the definition of pretending to scumhunt. Oh, and you slip in a pseudo-comment about solidstate's behavior without actually bothering to elaborate on it at all, or how it makes you view his play.
#226- Promise for a catchup post.
#288- Beginning of a push on Rainbow. Based on the sample size of one game. And completely based on meta and theory- there is no comment on Rainbow's actual play in this game thus far, beyond that single post.
#298- More commentary on Rainbow being scum because of theory and meta, in which you misrep Rainbow's intentions by making that post spetacularly. But Rainbow is doing a good enough job defending herself at the moment.
#384- A vague read on Defender, and a scumread on Applejack that has never been brought up before.

So, out of the 10 posts before you actually have to defend yourself (and, coincidentally, the amount of content per post just spikes upward), at least 4 have no content. Given how there is absolutely no elaboration in #183, I'd say that it's 5. Another 4 are pushes on single players with no comment on anybody else in the game. And your case on Rainbow was based on a single point, without commenting on anything else that she has contributed to the game, or lack thereof.

You've been making a pretty dang good effort to say as little as possible using a bunch of words, looking at your iso. But you're right. That isn't lurky behavior in the slightest.

3. Being open is better than saying nothing at all, but being absolutely open ISN'T beneficial. It allows good scum (and RBD is good scum) to manipulate town and eliminate those who suspect them. Anyone attempting NK analysis will be dismissed as WIFOM. So yeah, being open is better than saying nothing, but giving the scum your whole game isn't.

Good job dodging the thrust of my argument.

That key point? Let's go over the reads you have discussed- Defender. Looking back, you do state that he "hasn't done a good job at finding scum/defending himself." Which counts as a read, I guess, even if it's vague as all hell. Now let's look at Applejack. You didn't elaborate on this read until you're called out on it. Provide me one comment where you even imply Applejack to be scummy pre: #384. The closest is pointing out something you consider to be hypocritical. You don't elaborate on why that is scummy, or even say that it is. Just... kind of point it out. Also, as you note... this has nothing to do with your scumread on AJ. So it's completely irrelevant anyway. The last ones are Rainbow and Yoshi, and I maintain that those cases are just bad.

What are the reads you provide in this new post? You comment on solid, stating that you have a nullread. Of course, you don't elaborate on why. And any disclaimer about elaborating on townreads doesn't really work here, because you both don't consider solid to be town, and were willing to give your read on him. You also give a read on me. You don't actually comment on any of my prior content. I'm only scummy because I voted you after two other people [add: one of whom you think is scum] did and you feel that my case is full of stretches and misconceptions. Even though particularly solid cases can't be made on D1 anyway. Cool story.

And that's it. You honestly believe that it's not anti-town[add:/scummy] to not discuss your thoughts about more than 6 players in a game, while not even explaining one of them, and being incredibly vague on a second?

4. My read on Applejack comes out of nowhere. Yes, it does. Why? Because I was busy pursuing my number one scumreads in DoomYoshi and RBD.

Did your PM give you a PR that states you can only discuss one scumread at a time? Why couldn't you pursue multiple angles?

Once DoomYoshi claimed the wagon fell apart, and there doesn't seem to be enough support for RBD. So, switching from that, I went to the person who I felt had most avoided both of my wagons, had pushed Defender while there was no activity (parking your vote on those kind of players is a scum tactic to avoid having to take a stand on major issues) and seemed to me the most supportive of RBD. It wasn't a strong scumread, nor is it; I still prefer RBD. However, if Applejack is a viable wagon, I will join it. Simple enough? I think I've been saying this for the last like week, so I really don't know how you all seem to have missed it.

This is one massive red herring. I honestly don't care much about the strength of your Applejack case. However, combined with the fact that it comes out of nowhere... it does feel like pretend scumhunting. You have yet to provide a legitimate reason as to why you didn't discuss this Applejack read until I actually pressed you on the reads you have, and even then you just say "I want an Applejack lynch", without explaining why until you've got a 3-person wagon on you. So: Why didn't you bother to explain the read once I actually asked you who you thought was scum besides Rainbow?

5. My case on DoomYoshi was weak. As I said, Day One's usually not a slam dunk. I still think it's likely he's scum, but I won't vote him as he's claimed doc.

I still do want to lynch DoomYoshi; I don't think he's a doc, and it's an easy enough claim to make, particularly because if he gets counterclaimed the real doc gets outed.

Okay, let's talk about your case.

^^This is a weird statement to say, it definitely rubs me the wrong way.

You don't even bother to explain why this is scummy. Regardless, reading it, I don't see it as a tell either way. (Nulltell: 1)

In post #74, DoomYoshi's statement of:

"Wait, what? I will judge by your answer to this question whether are not you take this game seriously, as I am borderline on ignoring you completely already."

Is a very aggressive, oversensitive response to a single vote without much weight on it.

Aggression to being suspected isn't a scumtell, particularly when the voter doesn't explain why. Town can get frustrated by people voting them without explaining their reasoning, or feeling like a bandwagon is forming based on absolutely nothing, because it gives them nothing to respond to. I can easily provide plenty of examples of town doing this. (Nulltell #2)

Also, first instance of taking the matter out-of-context. This was in response to inte voting Yoshi without providing any logic behind it, and just a clearly tongue-in-cheek comment. You don't see how that could frustrate somebody, particularly somebody still relatively new to the game? (OOC: 1)

I think speedlynches can be hilarious. I wouldn't flip out and complain if he was speedlynched, but I didn't seriously expect it to happen. Does that answer your question?

^^This shows no signs of real scumhunting. He thinks it would be funny to quicklynch someone in RVS. It probably would be, but it's inexcusable to do so for no reason whatsoever.

Spin. What does "real scumhunting" have to do with that post? He wasn't been asked what his reads were, or anything similar. He was being asked how serious he was about the quicklynch. His answer? He wasn't serious. He just thought it would have been amusing. In fact, you say you'd find it amusing yourself, and that the scummy part is that he planned to do it. Except that he didn't "seriously expect it to happen". (Spin: 1)

^Rolefishing for the vig? Either way I don't see how his question pertains to scumhunting.

I like how you took that one out of context, when the context itself is available in your very post. He was putting a follow-up question to Bitmap, who initially made that statement about the vig. Oddly enough... apparently that isn't rolefishing?

Also, through doing that, he gets Bitmap to take a stance on which Bitmap would desire to lynch, and potentially which one he finds scummier. That has everything to do with scumhunting. (OOC: 2)

Then attacking inactives because he can't really put his mind to scumhunting (I was on V/LA at the time).

Oddly, solidstate does the same thing. Yet, no comment from McStab about him at all.

^Retracts his statement when put under pressure.

Nulltell and spin all in one! Conceding a point isn't scummy. In fact, it demonstrates honesty: that you're trying to make a legitimate case, and not just clinging to old tired canards in order to pretend that you're scumhunting. (NT: 2) (Spin: 2)

Creates the illusion that I'm dodging him, despite only a few hours passing between my post and this one.

Spin. The point isn't that you are dodging any of his questions- the point is that as of yet you had yet to post any content, and had just explained why instead. Hence, his vote stays on you. (Spin: 3)

^^^Nice logic to keep focusing on inactives. "Half the game is inactive; I can't come up with real points on the ones posting, so I'll target the inactives! Through my genius use of PoE I've came to the conclusion that there MUST be scum amongst 6 of the 13 players in the game!"

It doesn't change the fact that you're targeting of inactives is an easy way to fake scumhunting, scum.

The only good point in your entire post.

Cartographer, I don't even know the reason for you jumping on my wagon. It seems to me you just sheeped (funny that you're sheeping the wagon that your supposed big suspect of RBD is driving) but you didn't want to admit it (hence the whole "Ugh I'm so conflicted everyone notice" part of your post).

[/quote]

Isn't it convenient that people always become scummy when they start to suspect you?

Apple still reeks of town from that latest exchange, but I would like an explanation of her wording re: "I am also able to make your behavior out to be scummy", as opposed to "I am able to see that your behavior is scummy", or something of the sort, when she calms down and comes back. That is countered by her outright putting herself on the chopping block if McStab flips town, when there wasn't much pressure on her. That only makes sense in a McStab-Apple pair, and I'm not feeling that at all right now.

@Yoshi- Please help me help you. Answer my questions.

[Azusa Nakano]

Actually, if that was a slip, a McStab-Apple pair is actually VERY unlikely. So, yeah. Back to incredibly solid town on Apple.

[Azusa Nakano]

Oh, good. For the record, drop the personal attacks. It's immature and contributes nothing to the game.

Spoiler: Hi again. <3

Azusa's points:

1. That actually WASN'T what you were arguing,

You can assert that all you want. Doesn't make it true.

I'll begin by stating that your initial comment regarding the derailment of the Rainbow wagon, and that "2/3 of the people on the wagon are people you pushed on earlier" are both just flat out nonsense. Here are the people currently on your wagon- me, solidstate, and Rainbow. I was voting inte. Solid wasn't voting anybody. Rainbow obviously wasn't selfvoting. The people voting Rainbow were you, Carto, and Bitmap. None of them have changed their vote. As for your second claim, you hadn't pushed on me or Solidstate at all. All you did to me was answer my questions, and you yourself state that you have a nullread on solidstate. You also haven't done anything close to "pushing on him".

That was spin at its finest.

Oh hey, speaking of spin...

Your sudden about face from a townread on me and my "genuine efforts" to number one scumread on a scum-motivated wagon

The wagon is made up of me, Rainbow, and solid. You think Rainbow is scum. Solid is null. From the way you worded your post, you didn't think I was scum until this vote. So... how is this a scum-motivated wagon again?

I do apologize if I wasn't clear. Can you explain the difference between these two points to me?

but now that you've changed your argument to better suit your needs, Cartographer did jump wagons from RBD to me. The pressure on RBD let up as well; a wagon can consist of voice as well as vote, much like DoomYoshi's contribution to my wagon prior to his vote.

... Do you have a TARDIS or something? You made that claim before Carto entered the picture. Check the post #s if you don't believe me, people.

And you specifically said: "how quick the wagon falls apart on RBD". Why did you use the word wagon instead of pressure, if you meant pressure?

2. DoomYoshi is on my wagon pushing my lynch. You're blatantly lying now?

It didn't as of 423. Try again.

Also nice job not answering this point.

I didn't answer it because I don't care. It's irrelevant to my point. You're just tossing red herrings out there and hope they stick.

#163 isn't fluff, but hey, when you're lying this much why bother stopping?

Explain the content contained within it, then. It's you sniping at Yoshi. Good job pretending it says something in case people don't check, though.

Your criticism of my post #183 is only valid if you are viewing it with the IQ of a four year old. Obviously I am concluding Applejack's argument is wrong and his behaviour scummy by being hypocritical through saying a falsehood about solidstate that in fact applies to himself.

Finally! It only took me bringing it up around 3 times before you explained its significance!

Also, no. Being hypocritical does not necessarily mean you're being scummy. People are hypocrites all the time. I'm sure you can find hypocrisies in my own posts. You need to explain WHY Equinox being a hypocrite is scummy in this instance. Your rebuttal is only valid if you're a 5 year old with no sense of reading comprehension.

See! I pretend like tossing around ad-homs diminishes my opponents arguments too!

Here's a little explanation of how meta works. Meta works by examining the play in this game and the play of the person in other games. I was making a statement about RBD's play this game by comparing it to a similar setup game where she exhibited similar behaviour as scum. Hence, I'm calling her scum. Understandable enough?

Somebody explain where I claim that any of this isn't true. Anybody. I'm saying that you made no comment about her PRIOR PLAY. You simply focus on that one action, and don't actually bother to analyze the rest of her behavior this game. That makes it come across as incredibly forced.

#384 I've told you already why I have a scumread on Applejack. So yeah, either read my posts or stop regurgitating the same garbage walls you've been producing since you've joined.

Dear god! I'm a verbose person! That makes my arguments completely invalid! And you hadn't before you made that post. And that was my point.

You argue that there is a coincidental link between pressure on me and activity. Well there's also a coincidental link between my activity in this game and my activity in every other game I'm in on the site, and considering the homework you do on my sitewide activity, I'm surprised you either A) Didn't notice or B) decided not to include it deliberately.

I'm talking about content. Look at the spike in words-per-post you're making. It COULD be just a townie on the defensive. Or it could be scum squirming under perceived pressure.

And you once again misconstrue at the end of it my arguments. You say "people become suspicious when they attack me". No, I contend that others have attacked me once I've branded them suspicious.

[/quote]

Which is why you were suspicious of Carto before he voted you. Wait. No. You weren't.

I skipped certain parts of the post, because either they are out-and-out strawmen, lies, or outright irrelevant. If anybody feels like I have failed to address a legitimate point McStab made besides himself, let me know. I refuse to debate somebody who persists in immature ad-homs and strawmen to make their case. Besides, I don't need to convince scum that they're scum.

@Applejack- 'kay. That's believable enough.

@DoomYoshi- You said that back when you unvoted solid and voted Defender. Why?

Sorry, in a rush. Have to go. So apologies for any vagueries or huge mistakes on my part.

[Azusa Nakano]

@AJ: Regardless of your alignment, please do not leave. Go have some pie, calm down, and return. I just "completed" another game with McStab where he also got pretty belligerent (not while being lynched, but because people were refusing to join his wagon). He claims some of it was scum strategy, but suffice it to say it makes it clear that emotional manipulation/happily pushing people to replace out is part of his meta.

^ This. Looking at his meta, it seems that being abrasive- to say the least- is something he does regardless of alignment. Personally, it's pissing me off too. But please don't leave- it's been a pleasure reading your posts and playing with you thus far, as little as I've gotten to do it, and it would really suck if you left.

Also- hey. Defender. Good to see you're here. Thoughts on McStab?

Oh, and McStab. Claim. Now. We don't have much time to get a counterwagon going if it's convincing.

[Azusa Nakano]

Yeah I'm not claiming unless I get to L-1 and someone says intent to hammer.

Do I even have to explain to people how incredibly scummy that is? You're just stalling, now.

And for the record, it isn't even really the insults, although I don't see the point in them and do feel like you're attacking me for no reason. It's more the shoving words into my mouth and outright lying about things I've said and have not said.

rbd is a player who needs to be scrutinized. any alignment shes a force to pay attention to.

Find a post where I've claimed otherwise. In fact, that's part of the reason my read on her is so erratic- I KNOW she's a great player, particularly as scum. I want an explanation as to your read on her. All I wanted to know is the origin for this aboutface. I guess if I'm not going to get it, I'm not going to get it.

Also, what happened to Nacho being scummy because he changed his mind on you without explanation? Or is it only scummy when other people do it?

pretty much

No, seriously. Why do people think you're town. I don't get it.

So hey, inte, whatcha think about McStab? Because you're not getting a Carto lynch today. Would you be willing to join us on the McStab express? Bitmap, can you elaborate on that read? Are you saying that you find McStab scummy, or just a lynch of convenience? If the former, why? Which of us on the wagon do you want to go after?

I like how Defender, Bitmap, and inte all join us and proceed to almost say nothing about the colossal wagon that's built up in their absence.

[Azusa Nakano]

man i feel like im being ignored by everyone except azusa

How could I not be ignoring you? I'm tunneling on McStab, remember?

Anyway. I get Bitmap and RBD- you've stated you have a townread on those two. But why McStab? Do you have a townread on him as well, is it just the people on the wagon/the nature of said wagon, or...

Also, let's say Carto became unlynchable for the rest of D1. Who would you switch your vote to?

I'd also like an answer to that first question, Bitmap.

[Azusa Nakano]

Quote the question again. You asked a lot.

Hmm... actually, you have kind of answered it. You did say that you disliked McStab earlier. But: why?

Also- any particular reason you aren't voting AJ if you're interested in an Applejack lynch?

Also, lol at inte complaining at another playing for coasting. Solid actually isn't coasting, by the way. He's been making some decent cases recently (Post #420 was very thought-out, imo) and defending his positions relatively well. I'm beginning to think my earlier town read is a bit more justified than I thought.

[Azusa Nakano]

So yeah, I'm softclaiming PR. I'll hardclaim if someone says intent to hammer regardless, but I would rather not. Until someone does, I will not elaborate on this.

*Eyeroll* Now that you've softclaimed PR (the claim I had assumed you were going to make in the first place), it really doesn't matter. You're pretty high on the scum kill list regardless. Why on Earth would you be softclaiming at this point? Now you're just wasting more time if your claim is really persuasive.

My only fear is that there is one instance where this makes a modicum of sense, but even then I fail to see how refusing to claim helps.

Azusa gets kinda sketchy with her post in 421. I don't mind it when people change their reads, but the fact you don't really go out and basically just generalize a ton is worrying. Also, a lot of her case is based on lurkyness. I really can't say anything too bad about that b/c I'd be a raging hypocrite if I said "lynch all lurkers". IRL stuff happens, I can't blame McStab for that if he can't get on mafia.

Examples of generalizations. Also, my case is basically has nothing to do with lurking anymore. I conceded that his inactivity had nothing to do with him being scum, but still argue that him being an active lurker is a valid point.

Bitmap- I've looked at the wagon. Aside from DoomYoshi's vote (which I hate), it's looking decent. Carto's vote is relatively sketchy, but I have a solid enough townread on him that I'm willing to let it slide, for now. I want to see a McStab flip before I analyze the vote more closely. If McStab flips town (which I REALLY doubt), Carto doesn't look as good. Also, I love how you keep using "tunnelling" as a buzzword in order to try and delegitimize the Stab wagon.

The Apple wagon is just pathetic. Even McStab admits that his case is weak, and Bitmap's argument is solely based on associative links, which while they can work, aren't particularly persuasive pre-flip. (The only reason this isn't that true with Rainbow is that EVERY SINGLE ONE of my scumreads is behaving in a way that makes no sense to me if Rainbow isn't town.) Also, can somebody please tell me why if both Rainbow and Applejack are scum (which, from what I recall, Bitmap and McStab both believe), why they are connecting themselves so brazenly. Makes much more sense if at least one is town.

[Azusa Nakano]

Azusa why is mcstab high on the NK list?

... Because he had claimed a PR, and typically Mafia kind of want to get rid of those? Particularly if the claim would then turn out to be incredibly provable?

Also, I know this is a stupid question, but can somebody provide an explanation/link re: role tiers? Because wiki, google, and a skim of Mafia Discussion are all coming up goose-eggs for me.

And I refuse to lynch Applejack or Carto. Solid town reads on both. I'd love an inte or Bitmap wagon, but those seem like pipedreams. Only feasible other wagon I would want to see is solid. But I'd have to reread first, seeing as how I'm coming around to solidtown.

[Azusa Nakano]

Ty Apple. Claim is very interesting, as is #542. But I REALLY don't want to unvote yet.

Dw guys, I'll shoot Azusa Nakano tonight. It's not like she was that important in K-On!

Bu-but she was my favorite character!

Hang on, I should be lynched because I'm high on the NK list? Great logic.

No. Just... no. What I was SAYING: let's assume you were town. By softclaiming PR, you just made the scum want to kill you much more, because... well, Mafia want PRs dead. And even if they think you can get lynched, there are PRs in this game that are confirmable. Hence, overall, it would make much more sense to kill you. So, softclaiming PR has no benefit as town, whereas as scum, it might allow users to back off your wagon (which you IMPLED IS WHAT YOU EXPECTED TO HAPPEN when you said "Hey, if Doomyoshi got off the hook because he claimed doc, why am I not being treated the same way?" in #508) without having to immediately worry about a CC, and will give you time during the night to optimize your claim with your buddy/buddies.

Ugh... really?

Oh God at the massive amount of predits.

Also, I do want Nacho to post REALLY badly. If the McStab wagon just HAS to be dismantled (which would make me very, very, sad), then Nacho would actually be a good bet.

Literally at this point Apple and Azusa are voting me because they feel like it;

The only good vote on me is Azusa who's provided some reasons, albeit flawed.

WHY CAN'T WE LYNCH THIS MAN?

Sigh, I'll reread Carto and solidstate. (AGAIN)

[Azusa Nakano]

Nice job forgetting to mention the crucial thing that changed between those two quotes I made, when I claimed T2 (a confirmable PR) and you still wanted to push my lynch.

Nice job forgetting the two posts I made explaining why I stated the soft-PR claim wasn't good enough.

Also, nope. Given the role combinations, not all the T2 PRs are provable. Try again.

Explain how I am persuaded by AtE please. Also how my reads don't have pro-town intentions. The only thing I can come up with is that they are the two major bandwagon candidates, but my reads have been consistent- it's not as if I just suddenly decided "OMG APPLEJACK AND CARTO ARE OBVTOWN" just now.

[Azusa Nakano]

Also, McStab's cageyness about his role is hilarious. There's only 2 roles he can be claiming and scum will pretty much want them dead.

THANK YOU.

Also, the Applejack wagon is so obviously scumdriven it's not even funny. I won't go as far as AJ, but I will admit that I have completely failed as a scumhunter this game if AJ flips scum.

This game is frustrating me to no end. McStab's wagon has dissipated based on a nonclaim that is not neccessary provable, and has been scummy all damn game. Meanwhile, AJ, who has been town all game, is being wagoned for almost no freaking reason. The case on AJ is just utter nonsense.

[Azusa Nakano]

It's provable by the existence of a T1 role.

Applejack isn't town and your farcical cases to defend someone who long ago gave up trying to defend her opinions with logic (hint: because there isn't any substance to them) is noted.

Nope. I admit I first misread Dash's post a bit, and I suck at setup speculation (probably because I haven't actually played this game in ever), but I still see roles there that aren't completely confirmable.

And I don't give a damn about how frustrated Equinox is or how logically based her vote is. She's still town.

Somebody, sum up a case against Equinox in a single post. Freaking convince me. Because thus far it's been really weak.

Also, do you believe I'm scum with Apple? I'm curious.

Preedit: I was assuming one-shot doc or one-shot Roleblocker. Which given the possible existence of a Mafia Roleblocker, is also not confirmable.

[Azusa Nakano]

Who is Equinox? Please stick to primary names not alt names or whatever, for those of us who aren't site veterans.

My apologies. I'm starting to not think clearly, but given how close we are to deadline and everything that's going on, I don't want to get off at the moment. Applejack=Equinox. I just stated it because that's what I know her as, and she mentioned it way back when.

@Yoshi- Oh. My. God. NO. We are not no-lynching today. I will vote Applejack over that, as much as I really don't want to.

McStab, I will not respond to your points at the moment, just because I am far too emotionally charged ATM to do so. I will apologize for misconstruing Solidstate's post, however.

Okay, inte.

its not. my two town reads are on this wagon.

And my scumreads are on this wagon. I'm kind of obligated to put my reads above yours, particularly when I think you're scum.

your ability to not see her obvious bullshit is ass

I'm glad your joining the camp that thinks ad-homs and stating things as absolutes helps your argument somehow.

@McStab- Although I'm a bit frustrated with you, you haven't directly broke those rules. Inte came closer, though.

[Azusa Nakano]

I mean you can claim 1-shot doc and then go 'oops I got roleblocked sorry guys' when your heal target dies and we end up with no info until you die. Which might be a null observation, but its how I see that implied claim.

That's basically how I see it too. And obviously one-shot RB would keep you alive until we massclaim, which means at least one more day. And if there is an RB, it's a gamble that could pay dividends for a while, at least.

Applejack's frustration isn't even why I perceive her to be town. Do I consider it genuine? Yes. Is it a strong point in her favor? ... Not really. The amount of townie points it grants her are incredibly small. It's the rest of her play that I really feel is pro-town. The cases feel genuine, the analytical nature of the posts makes me feel like she's really thinking about the game and isn't just manufacturing reads, her pressure on Prolapsed Brain to actually provide content so that Applejack doesn't have to lynch them, instead of simply letting it slide and then making them an easy target earlier on makes much more sense if Applejack is town, I feel that she provided solid defenses against Carto's arguments, the way that Applejack unvoted Carto after believing that her question was answered felt much more like a townie mindset to me than a scum mindset.

There's the reasons I think Applejack is town. Please stop putting words into my mouth as to why I do. The only thing I dislike about Apple is the lack of claim in the last post. But if Apple is just giving up, I can see her doing that either way.

I swear I'll get to you McStab, but I'm trying to cut down on the lengthy posts.

... I was going to flesh out a case as to why Carto would be a better lynch than Apple... then that preedit happened. I want to know: is there NO chance of getting a McStab lynch. None? Because Apple is town. But if this is all I'm going to get... sigh.

Unvote

I'll either put Apple at L-1 or hammer if the answer is no.

[Azusa Nakano]

the fighting is stupid, though.
also no lynching applejack.
no lynching mcstab, and no making him claim. might change later, we'll see.

Then who do we lynch, Nacho? You would need to make a damn good case in order to get somebody else dead at this point.

[Azusa Nakano]

McStab, I just listed all the reasons I think AJ is town. I will be shocked if you aren't scum. But since I literally can not see any way to get you lynched today given the votes

Vote: Applejack

[Azusa Nakano]

*Shrug* If there was any discussion I cut off, please do let me know. Applejack had just said she would just replace out if either she or McStab wasn't lynched. People think she's scum based on a completely bullshit wagon. Pretty much everybody seemed utterly convinced that she was scum, and I did not see a single one of those votes moving, and Nacho had just put Apple at L-1 explicitly saying that Applejack needed to die today. We had one day left until the deadline. Explain why I should not have hammered in this situation.

And yes, I'm going to lynch a townread when there is literally no other option. A Carto wagon was going nowhere. A McStab wagon was going nowhere. There was no other wagon available.

[Azusa Nakano]

No Lynch is always an option if you're like 95% sure they're town. Referring to Mini 1361 where I made a similar stand on a townread in Paschendale (who eventually turned out to be the cop) and pushed what we thought was a last minute lynch through on scum. I'm just saying, it's a bit weird to me you're so willing to jump wagons after defending her SO certainly all day, and even now you're trying to hedge your bets if she flips town while simultaneously voting her.

And my view is that that is a bad idea. Town should pretty much NEVER no lynch except in very special circumstances. Ever. At least in this scenario, we get a good deal of information due to Apple's flip and how people reacted to it. Whereas if we had just stalled for a day and let a NL happen, we would only get NK info (which while potentially useful, is WIFOMy), and PR info, which we now get anyway, and now an investigative PR can utilize their abilities on somebody other than Applejack, when a good chunk of the town thought she was suspicious anyway.

I'm not hedging my bets. Applejack is town. I'd be willing to bet anything on that. Vote me on D2 if she flips scum, if you want. But I'm not going to have a no-lynch, and having the game probably stall for a day is not particularly beneficial.

[Azusa Nakano]

Unvote

NO. There is still a bit of conversation going on, now. We are not hammering. I'll comment on McStab in a sec.

[Azusa Nakano]

With the extent to which you think she'll flip town, WHY are you voting her again? You're so willing to bet she's town that you'd sacrifice yourself is what you're saying, yet you continue to vote her.

I didn't say I'd be willing to be LYNCHED if AJ flipped town. I said I would be willing to be voted if that were the case. Pressure does not = lynch. That may have been bad wording on my part, though.

If everyone was going to lynch Seilkops (the Innocent Child) would you join on merely based on principle?

Nope. Because I can't say with certainty that Apple isn't scum. If I was 100% sure, then I would oppose this lynch to the death. But although I'm 99% sure Apple is town, there is still a 1% chance remaining that she isn't. Hence, the lynch is still better than a Seilkops lynch, if only by definition. I could be wrong, in which case this death is a huge boon for the town.

Or are you overstating the degree to which you hold a townread on AJ, because the way you're wording it right now is that you're voting someone who you think is conf. town out of frustration.

I'm voting somebody who I'm really sure is town out of frustration because there is pretty much no other option. If you can give me an alternate wagon that will go through in a day, I'll happily join it. Can you agree to a Carto lynch? Because I'm more sure that Apple is town than Carto, and I'm willing to repost my reasons as to why.

Also, I want Nacho's to give some comments on everything that has happened since he last posted.

[Azusa Nakano]

Mmkay. I guess if that's all that Nacho's going to say (which I'm not that big a fan of), and McStab's satisfied with the convo, then the day can end satisfactorily.

Vote: Applejack

inte- lolwut inte?

[Azusa Nakano]

If you think AJ is town, he is your vote. If we hit a PR or something I am fully willing to take any blame from it. AJ is prob town from so much, I would hammer MS before AJ right now. No questions asked. I would actually vote anypony but seli over AJ.

^ This is good posting, exactly my position, and Nacho jumping makes me so happy.

Now then, let's see if there aren't good reasons to lynch him BESIDES him being the definition of a lazy lurker-

Spoiler:

- #84- Yay! Another player that is saying a bunch of words yet simultaneously contributing nothing! And I hate the buddying up to Elmo.

- Post #138 also needs to DIAF. See AJ's 142 for more information.

- I like how whenever Defender comes back, he just says irrelevant shit instead of actually talking about the game of Mafia the rest of us are playing. That's great. And by "great" I mean abhorrent and OH MY GOD DOES THIS MAN NEED SOME ROPE.

- #221- How is this man not dead yet?

- #256- the closest thing to a read thus far, and it's an incredibly vague comment that doesn't even tell alignment, and just lists a post number. DIE THE DEATH. SENTENCE TO DEATH. GREAT EQUALIZER IS THE DEATH.

- #261- "Pay no attention to me! There are people that are worse!" That said, the fact that Prolapsed Brain is being allowed to slip by doing nothing is... worrying.

- #275- No. NO NO NO NO.

Now, let's look at Defender's posts since I joined:

- #398: I think I was too shocked that Defender actually posted content, and impressed that he did it once everybody started being hesitant to lynch him (instead of caving into pressure and doing it earlier), that I didn't notice how incredibly bad those reads were. I'm town because of behavior he doesn't describe. Lists a bunch of post numbers and tosses some comments out on them, without actually describing what makes them pro-town or scummy. What makes some of those posts "controversial"? Why is that a bad thing? Why does Bitmap confuse you. Does that make him more scummy? What has he done that is pro-town? Anything? Absolutely nothing for either Carto or the ponies. McStab is a "lurker", yet leaning town. Why? Inte is town 'cause meta says so. Solid is scum because of reaction fishing. More on that in a second. Apparently he has nothing to say on Demon Core's current play.

So unlike what Rainbow said, Defender does toss out a couple reads, and it's those I focussed on. But the reasons for those reads? Garbage. Fluff. BS.

- #400: Hey guys, remember that mystical ISO of the ponies that we were going to get, the other thing that impressed me enough about Defender to not want to lynch him? Yeah. Been 3 days now. I will cut him some slack on this one however- he hasn't posted much the last 3 days. .He could just not have had the time. Not too scummy. It's still a lack of participation, however.

And before you say that he hasn't had time, he had enough time to post a completely fluffy post in #457

- #419: Hey, you want hedging your bets? Here you go.

Oh, and take a look at a little thing in a post I like to call #398

The Ponies: If you're both scum, it's either coincidence. Chance they're masons though, but I don't like either. Slightly leaning scum. If one flips mason, the other is with him. If one flips scum, the other is town probably.

You want rolefishing? There ya go.

unvote

Vote: D3f3dn3r

Let's see if there is anything in the predits worth commenting on-

... Did I just read that Stab has a townread on defender?

[Azusa Nakano]

Also, I see I didn't delete a part of my analysis which makes it look like I both said that he didn't have time and he did. So to quickly clarify- I'm leaning towards the "Didn't" camp, but the fact that he had time to make a couple of fluff posts makes me incredibly unsure of that.

McStab- Hey, you were the one on a scum-driven wagon on somebody I'm 99% sure is town. I'm willing to side with Rainbow (Who is just getting townier and townier the more I look at their posts) and Nacho (who I admit I don't like) over THAT.

[Azusa Nakano]

Also, I see I didn't delete a part of my analysis which makes it look like I both said that he didn't have time and he did. So to quickly clarify- I'm leaning towards the "Didn't" camp, but the fact that he had time to make a couple of fluff posts makes me incredibly unsure of that.

McStab- Hey, you were the one on a scum-driven wagon on somebody I'm 99% sure is town. I'm willing to side with Rainbow (Who is just getting townier and townier the more I look at their posts) and Nacho (who I admit I don't like) over THAT.

See, you're operating within blinders. You refuse to even consider the possibility that RBD or AJ are scum (well, you lent AJ 1% possibility) and are convinced that the wagon on AJ is scum motivated. Since there's been no flips, I fail to see how you can believe that and be town.

So hey, let's look at the reasons you guys voted AJ, shall we?

McStab: Applejack got pissed for personal reasons when she believed that you put words into her mouth. (I believe you have done the same with me, so I can even sympathize in that regard). She has even outright stated that she would be willing to be lynched if you flipped town. I fail to see how this is beneficial to her in any way, even if you are a PR. A 1-1 trade is still pretty good, and was also completely unneccesarily for Applescum. You stated that you wouldn't claim until Bitmap stated intent to hammer, and that Applejack should know how reasonable that is. While I don't know how Applejack views it, I still see it as total bullshit. But regardless, it's not particularly scummy, because Apple herself admits that she isn't really voting based on logic any longer. She is being purely emotional. By itself, this isn't a scumtell, sorry. She's enraged. Could she been enraged scum? Sure. But she's pretty clearly truly enraged regardless of her alignment. The "Fruedian Slip" which in retrospect makes much more sense under her interpretation than it does under yours, given the context. You're just quantifying anti-town behavior as scummy behavior, which isn't the case. What else have ya got?

Bitmap: Associative tells that don't work as well pre-flip, and "gut".

Inte: Spinning a comment that Applejack made, the bullshit "anger is not anti-town but scummy" nonsense you're pulling. What else ya got?

seilkops: Associative tells. That's it.

Nacho: neccessity.

This was a BS wagon to begin with. Sorry.

Also, I plan to go over everybody on N1. But you get that I didn't mean "1%" literally, right? I meant I was almost positive Applejack wasn't scum. And I'm pretty sure Rainbow isn't either. Especially after looking over Apple's ISO.

Also, I thought I made "a decent case", McStab? You KEEP CONTRADICTING YOURSELF. Seriously. You're falling into the "too scummy to be scum" category the more you post.

[Azusa Nakano]

Okay, if the lynch isn't going to be McStab or Applejack, who is?

DEFENDER.

Bitmap, this is a win-win for you. If Defender's town you get an easy mislynch that will not be held as a mark against you. If Defender's scum you can bus your buddy that isn't going to do any good anyway.

WE CAN MAKE THIS HAPPEN WITH YOUR HELP.

[Azusa Nakano]

I want everybody to read #677, then read Applejack's ISO. Then look me in the eye and tell me that it is both more likely that Defender is town, and that it is more profitable to leave Defender's slot around than Apple's.

LOOK ME IN THE EYE AND SAY THAT.

[Azusa Nakano]

AtE

Nah, it's an appeal to common sense. Given how obvtown Apple is, and given how completely baseless the wagon is, I'd say a defender lynch is looking pretty damn good.

Unless you'd like to actually give a case for Apple's lynch beyond BS psychoanalysis and associative tells? I'm all ears.

[Azusa Nakano]

*Sigh*
Given reasons why the AJ wagon is bogus, given reasons why Defender is a better lynch, and the closest thing to any kind of response is intesun saying "no. 'cause."

Tired of this nonsense, and the fact that somebody is arguing that McStab gets to live to D4 makes me very very sad.

[Azusa Nakano]

This is the dumbest wagon ever. Literally every vote except Nacho's (and Nacho's is no great improvement) has been because people think getting upset is a towntell. The site meta is truly sad when emotional instability becomes alignment indicative.

Applejack's frustration isn't even why I perceive her to be town. Do I consider it genuine? Yes. Is it a strong point in her favor? ... Not really. The amount of townie points it grants her are incredibly small. It's the rest of her play that I really feel is pro-town. The cases feel genuine, the analytical nature of the posts makes me feel like she's really thinking about the game and isn't just manufacturing reads, her pressure on Prolapsed Brain to actually provide content so that Applejack doesn't have to lynch them, instead of simply letting it slide and then making them an easy target earlier on makes much more sense if Applejack is town, I feel that she provided solid defenses against Carto's arguments, the way that Applejack unvoted Carto after believing that her question was answered felt much more like a townie mindset to me than a scum mindset.

The site meta is truly sad when the players don't go through the effort to understand why people believe things.