Open 456: Faith Plus One [Game Over]

[Declan_giggs]

So, Bulder. You should at least not cut and paste that crap if you are going to muddy games with it. Put some effort in.

I random VOTE: Aether because he loves having votes on him

I see my pal ImJadenYuki is here. Hi buddy!

[Declan_giggs]

Bulder, the problem with your declaring you will vote the next random voter is that you are conducting a personality test, not progressing the game.

You are finding out which player or players in the roster will defiantly say F U and still cast a random vote.

In effect, you are casting a random vote for a different reason than a random die roll, or you have played with a player recently, which is how I usually assign my random votes.

Shos, I came here intending to cast my random vote on Aether after looking over the player list, for the very reason that we just finished a game together and its a little carryover humor.

With 4 players still missing, and the majority of people still having randoms on, there is no scum hunting yet to be done. Meta tells me Bulder's play is null. Its what he does these days. Absta's reaction to it is null. City seems to want to start a wagon, which is a more productive way to move out of RVS eventually.

[Declan_giggs]

Bulder: declaring behavior anti town does not make it so. You are very entrenched in your opinions for somoone who doesn't seem well versed in game theory.

There are two schools of thought: rvs helps town because the votes can be looked at any point after N1 and analyzed once the town has information about one or two flips. The other school of thought is that rvs gives the scum time to read the town and get comfortable.

Your play deprives the town of rvs info while still giving the scum somewhere to hide, which is in the likely wagon on you.

[Declan_giggs]

I think the theory is that they can find out who in the town is the jovial likes-to-mess about types, who are the uptight types, etc, and can establish a persona themselves during the stage, buddy up, etc. They can also throw a random onto a scum buddy and later try to point out that they would never have random voted a known scum buddy if the heat falls on them. Basically, its a good time to lay the groundwork for WIFOM later.

Day 1 is perilous under most circumstances, for town and scum, and the game in general. As you can see from my join date, I'm new here. I have been playing elsewhere with 72 hours deadlines (and werewolves not mafioso, whatever). The Day 1 problems there tended more toward debates over whether someone disappeared because of pressure or because they can't be on for a full 72 hours to answer every question. At least here we have the luxury of long deadlines to get our feet firmly on the ground. It looks like here a lot of Day 1 peril involves impatience and dropouts and the inevitable speculation of why someone bailed under X, Y or Z circumstance. Oh well

[Declan_giggs]

EBWOP: re 39, not 40

re 40: Radelle, welcome to the game. Good first post. What about my whining is scummy and voteworthy? Did you notice that of the 39 posts that preceded your, approximately 25 have been discussing RVS theory? But I guess my contribution is whining. I said City wanted to start a wagon (he second voted two people so far), and by productive I meant "town leaning". Always happy to clarify for the slow of foot though. And by foot I mean brain.

[Declan_giggs]

there you go bulder! let's just quit RVS! let's get on with the game with absolutely no information to play with! how the hell are you expecting the game to go on?

@31: I see no relation at all between those posts you know(26 28).
post 27 was very good imo, each part of it. post 28 was completely unrelated to 26.

Indeed, the incongruities of post 26 and 28 seems quite telling. Luckily, there is a way for these two posts to be compatible; you're scum.
VOTE: shos

Abaddon, do you think THIS play is a town tell?

I think he has reached for something to seem to misunderstand (how can he not see that shos beats on me for a post with no content then appreciates my response where I post some of what at least he and I think is content) and piled on shos with a second vote.

[Declan_giggs]

I'm playing now, as of post 43, per your standards as well as my own hopefully. I hope Abaddon sees and responds to my question. I am concerned that he is now the proud owner of a wagon which the kinda-fishy Bulder has used to OMGUS Shos AND get a counter wagon going, all at the same time. One or both (Ab, Bulder) are acting scummy there.

[Declan_giggs]

Re: 48
Abaddon, I consider Bulder's vote on Shos to have 2 purposes, neither the stated one. He is looking for somewhere else to place a vote that might gain traction, and he found one with someone voting for him. Voting for someone because they are voting for you is OMGUS. Trying to deflect attention is scummy. Because of the OMGUS part of it, I am not yet ready to read Bulder as scum, which is why I haven't moved my vote to him. If you and Bulder would like to convince me that his vote has NO element of OMGUS to it, I will happily vote for Bulder.

Re: 51
I am hardly on the end of the spectrum being absolutely for the RVS. I just don't like your specific tactic of ending it, especially suffering through it more than once, I'm hearing echoes.

Re: 52 Are you unaware you case a second vote on Shos?

[Declan_giggs]

Fine

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Buldermar

I said if you assured me your vote was not OMGUS I would vote you as scum

[Declan_giggs]

Just because he said he had a reason doesn't mean I have to believe it. Just because you say he has a reason, doesn't make you not his scum buddy. Oh if only I had two votes. Hey....I declare the one vote per player phase over! Vo....don

[Declan_giggs]

Shos this isnt an attempt to get you to unvote me just to clarify for you and later readers.

I discredit Bulder's stated reason for voting you, the 26/28 thing. I simply think its garbage.

I also think that he went into the kitchen, lit the proverbial fire, and can't stand the heat. Abaddon says he thinks Bulder showed strength and townness by voting me but really YOU random voted first. So why the vote on me back then? Because I am aggressive and polarizing and easier to bandwagon (I am giving Bulder credit for observing my tone in my post where I hammered how random my vote was, plus some meta issues we shouldnt discuss).

So later, he sees Abaddon, who is becoming quite the Bulder cheerleader, and jumps on HIS vote for you. Maybe the case there will stick, he hopes. So i am saying, i think Bulder has been trying to get a wagon going all along, now a counter wagon to the one on him. That is nervous scum play in my book.

I brought up omgus because he does seem hostile to you and your vote on him. Abaddon, the Bulder Public relations department, said it was not an omgus vote. I said if it was not omgus, then the vote on you was scummy. Bulder said nope, no omgus. He didnt claim scum, but he took away my reason for doubt.

So i think he's scummy, i think abaddon is kinda scummy with him, but Im no chicken and want to turn up the heat on Bulder. At L-3 he needs to be on his toes but i dont think any real danger exists yet. 4 on him 2 or 3 on me theres not even enough active players to move either wagon much right now.

[Declan_giggs]

Re: 48
Abaddon, I consider Bulder's vote on Shos to have 2 purposes, neither the stated one. He is looking for somewhere else to place a vote that might gain traction, and he found one with someone voting for him. Voting for someone because they are voting for you is OMGUS. Trying to deflect attention is scummy. Because of the OMGUS part of it, I am not yet ready to read Bulder as scum, which is why I haven't moved my vote to him. If you and Bulder would like to convince me that his vote has NO element of OMGUS to it, I will happily vote for Bulder.

Re: 51
I am hardly on the end of the spectrum being absolutely for the RVS. I just don't like your specific tactic of ending it, especially suffering through it more than once, I'm hearing echoes.

Re: 52 Are you unaware you case a second vote on Shos?

I am being consistent. If OMGUS was the reason, thats not scummy just more Bulder bad play. I became convinced he wasnt OMGUSing, so I became convinced he very well may be scum.

[Declan_giggs]

Deliberately obtuse much? I'm voting him for his vote on Shos. Try to keep track of the fiction you are spinning for you and Bulder.

[Declan_giggs]

Goddamn are you stupid Abaddon. Those two posts you quoted mean the same thing.

Bulder voted Shos.
If his vote was in no way omgus, i consider it scummy. I keep saying so.
He said his vote was not omgus.
So i consider it scummy. I am not buying the flimsy reason he is selling.
So i voted for him because i think he is scum. With you.

Declan thinks bulder is bad playing scum and is voting for him. Declan thinks Abaddon is Bulders scum buddy and declan thinks Abaddon is trying to cover up bulders bad play. Declan thinks he has found two scum. One two scum. Ahhahaha.

[Declan_giggs]

@Declan, do you read these forums on your phone often?

Don't know about often but I browse them from phone iPad and pc depending on the moment.

[Declan_giggs]

Why? You repping for Sprint or something?

[Declan_giggs]

@absta: If Bulder's recent spat of posts, plus my repetitive stating of the stance I took, don't help you draw your own conclusion to the question you asked me, me saying it again won't help either. I don't think its really good scum hunting to ask an @ question and tell me to stop posting in the same post, either. Kinda contradictory.

Anyway, in general, this game has a VI, a self professed VI, and 2 other angry gents who I seem to recall at least one of being called a VI by someone else.

unvote

Vote's doing no good there. Its impossible to read this game (literally) or get a read on this game. So far on this site I've been lucky enough to have 2 games with Bulder and 2 with Aether. I'm sorry my frustration, especially with Bulder, spilled over into some wordy apparently and probably useless postings here. If you haven't yet, do some meta reading on Bulder, but only some. You won't enjoy it. He also seems to like hiding behind the no talk of other open games thing. So just read his other open games, possibly cross referencing to me.

As Radelle deduced, I am primarily on my smart phone during the day, and despite how short what I think I have to say, it often gets lengthy. Not easy to do from a credit card sized screen, especially multiquoting and such.

Now that others are joining in more, I'll try to focus more on them and ignore Bulder's more distracting habits.

Again, not a plea to unvote me. If you want to read my vote on Bulder as scummy, feel free. I don't want to be lynched nor will I do one of those dramatic "at least if you lynch me....." scenes, but I'm not going to explain how frustration and my challenges to him led to that vote, any more.

[Declan_giggs]

Why is it scummy? Maybe you think I'm an ahole, but why is it scummy? I'm not using the content of that post to push a lynch on you, nor am I asking for an unvote. I think you are one of the worst people I've ever come across playing this game, and I was just in a game that lasted less than 72 hours and ended with D1 lynched scum outing his 2 scummates in his Bah post. I'd rather play every game with that guy knowing in advance he'd do it again than play any more with you.

If you think its scummy, vote for me. Your vote on me will do a lot more than the one you have left on Shos.

[Declan_giggs]

Whats odd about it shos?

VOTE: abdta101

OMGUS

[Declan_giggs]

I'm pretty sure I answered the question, just not @him. If you want I can reiterate to many other's dismay tho. But please, can we end this here?

I spoonfed Buldermar a chance to pass off his vote as OMGUS, which I said I thought would make me lean town on him. OMGUS there=frustrated town/gambit to me

He insisted his vote was NOT OMGUS. His continued explanations OF his vote is so much wind to me, the reasons he gives for his vote make me think they aren't his real reason, and I think his real reason was trying to get something rolling on someone else (turns out there a new wagon has formed, right?).

Between that and Abaddon sticking up for him, I see a possible scum pair. I still do. Despite sparring with you, I don't have any scum vibe yet.

As for my vote/play today, including the comments to not unvote me, I don't mind the votes on me. I don't think anyone is going to lynch me right now, we are miles from deadline, and have only talked about one thing. Having a wagon is fine and I'm not worried its on me. If anyone else adds to it, we can question what they are doing. Bulder is pretty vocal about his lynch theories (meta!) and will probably be compelled to voice them here sooner or later. If the wagon builds on me and he quick hammers, it will only help the town out for THAT to happen.

Come to think of it, shouldn't someone be asking ABSTA what his vote is about, rather than what I'm doing? L-3 and all.

*sarcasm* Eek. Scum could quick hammer now, if they aren't on the wagon. *sarcasm*

[Declan_giggs]

ebwop "Despite sparring with you...."...meaning, I don't think everyone I argue with is scum

[Declan_giggs]

I will be LA. I have plans this weekend, and my state is in the direct path of the hurrderp headed for the east coast, so my employer is in DEFCON93 mode. So, today is meetings meetings meetings, weekend is fun fun fun, and Monday or Tuesday could be warm milk and buttered bread by candlelight. You may see me checking from my phone to see if I've been hammered. :-/

If I get back to L-1 and anyone wants to ask for a claim, just let Abaddon make one up. He's been pushing this wagon, right? (So when I flip town....)

[Declan_giggs]

Alright, I'm going to have to stop for now. I could barely get through 2 pages. I'm a little buzzed, and this game is kind of a snorefest. I get bored easily when I'm town. I'll have to read the rest of it tomorrow.

Real quick, this. Second post in the game, and feels the need to slip in a town claim? Has anyone even cast one vote on him?

Aether very quiet in this game. Rapidcanyon and at least one other need a prod from @mod.

[Declan_giggs]

Alright, I'm going to have to stop for now. I could barely get through 2 pages. I'm a little buzzed, and this game is kind of a snorefest. I get bored easily when I'm town. I'll have to read the rest of it tomorrow.

Real quick, this. Second post in the game, and feels the need to slip in a town claim? Has anyone even cast one vote on him?

Aether very quiet in this game. Rapidcanyon and at least one other need a prod from @mod.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RedCoyote

Pedit: like it even more now. Scolds Aether for lurking after being absent all game. Scolds me for fluff or something then fights with fur, just what we need another row.
Keeps promising contribution. Only contrib so far is an unsolicited town claim.

People at the house all day Saturday. Not likely to post at all.

[Declan_giggs]

F$&@. Pedit should have been after everything. On phone sorry.

[Declan_giggs]

Shoulda voted me then. Vote on Aether aint doin shit. This is me being panicky. Lol

[Declan_giggs]

My houseguests are gone but I have to go to work to prepare for the big storm. I do not think that under a STATE OF EMERGENCY it will be good for me to get caught playing on my phone. So I will be away from the forums for the next day at least, maybe through Tuesday.

Not much happening here right now anyway. The wagon on me looks to have lost some steam, more's the pity. Maybe there will be some new hunting to think about once I'm back. Lots of people need to exercise their fingers and post some analyses. I suggest starting with the A's...Abaddon, Aether and Absta all need a good hard look for their own reasons respectively.

[Declan_giggs]

Would someone remind me what the case on Declan is again? I forget. We should lynch that guy if its so strong.

[Declan_giggs]

I am also not unvoting Abaddon until he is lynched or somehow dies in the night

Why not?

Because someone besides me thinks Abaddon is scum?

And as to your question about in 231 about my 226, I am mocking the wagon on me, its obviously scummy overtones, and frankly don't care if I get lynched at this point. Which seems incredibly unlikely, but I'll do what I can to help it along. This game is flailing, it has been flailing since Buldermar shit on it, half the players aren't playing, and the few who are playing are almost certainly including scum who are of course, more interested, and see an easy chance to pad their stats.

[Declan_giggs]

I don't think I can get any more traction/credibility day 1. If the town wins I win and my lynch, flip town and wagon analysis will help the town win. I might even be able to "I told you so" during twilight.

Pedit: UNVOTE:

[Declan_giggs]

VOTE: declan
If this is how you play mafia as town on your other site then that's not mafia. You're playing up the awkward transition angle too much.

Hammer, hilarious. The sad little wagon on me petered out and dropped to like 3 votes. Maybe even 2 depending on if Abaddon's limp dick still counts. Or maybe he's bussing Furcolow now or sompin.

If you can get me to L-1 maybe I'll "do a Buldermar" and self-hammer or something. Nah, not really. I wouldn't do Buldermar with Abaddon's...well, you get the idea.

[Declan_giggs]

You're playing up the awkward transition angle too much.

Do you mean like this:

L-1 or hammer I don't give a shit.

Otherwise, can you explain what you mean.

He means that early in the thread I was talking about how I was trying to adapt to playing here, since I played elsewhere and things were done differently. At some point I was a town read for him because he thought I was doing my best *boy scout salute* while trying to get the lay of the land here.


Now I'm scum. To him. And Abaddon. And Abaddon. Don't anyone forget that ABADDON is pushing my lynch.

[Declan_giggs]

I should check my role PM. It would be embarassing if I am confusing being town with being mafia.

@Abaddon: your role PM had a link to a quicktime right? So if mine didn't it means I'm town right?

[Declan_giggs]

Oh, I get it. By repeatedly referring to me with sarcasm but without context, you hope to float the notion that I don't have credibility without having to argue for said notion.

How lazy.

I'm lazy? Your case on me is that I voted for Buldermar.

[Declan_giggs]

L-3 Shos. Hanging on for DEAR LIFE.

Does Abaddon let you type your own votes or are you just alts anyway?

[Declan_giggs]

Ah the heck with it. This outta provoke a few votes my way

VOTE: Furcolow

[Declan_giggs]

I have no case for that vote.

[Declan_giggs]

Where's Buldermar been anyway?

[Declan_giggs]

What IS Abaddon's case on me again? Page 10 is torn out of the scum handbook I found in his locker.

[Declan_giggs]

Mod can you force replace Declan and/or Furcolow please.

Relax sweetie, I took my OMGUS vote off you.

[Declan_giggs]

He appears to be just fine. He's been quite active on the forums. Like, in the last 5 minutes.

[Declan_giggs]

^^^The above post is actually game related content. I know I've been VI'ing it up. But when I was playing seriously, my likely scum team was Abaddon, Shos and Bulder. So, Shos, covering for Bulder, who has faded from this game since the heat got turned up on him.

[Declan_giggs]

Oh, crap. Now I've played poorly, too?

I declare the RVS open again!

[Declan_giggs]

To reiterate: when I'm lynched, town needs to ignore my later play and focus on the period around pages 5 and 6 when my vote on Buldermar became the sole reason for Abaddon's crusade against me.

I voted Buldermar, for a stated reason, which was basically that I didn't believe his supposed reason for voting.
Abaddon has attempted to lead a lynch of me, because he doesn't like my stated reason for voting. And I have an agenda, unspecified.

[Declan_giggs]

So, here's how Mafia games go: D1, the town mucks about with RVS, somebody casts a fishy vote, they get harangued and/or wagoned, lather rinse repeat until a wagon gets to L-1. The imminent lynch waits for a claim, and depending on the claim's credibility, somebody hammers or everyone else mutters uncomfortably and someone else to wagon emerges.

What's happened here: we wasted over 100 posts on some asshattery, I voted the asshat, and I got wagoned. No one wants to listen to my side of the argument and make me keep repeating it, I vote asshattily myself (the OMGUS vote on absta) and unseriously, and so I got to L-1, no one declared intent to hammer, no one asked for a claim, and absta unvoted for reasons I don't really understand (he says Furc looks scummy, and in the next post unvotes me "for now"). I sorta claim town anyway, since I had to be LA for the storm. The wagon falls apart a little, and...nothing else happens.

Once we lynch someone, the flavor for this part of the game will be "at lunch time, everyone ate alone because everyone hated a different someone".

We either need to be productive and find someone else to wagon, or we need to lynch me as the best candidate. Lynching me isn't OPTIMAL since I'm town, but it will give information that is unavailable until I am clear. The best I can do to bolster my claim is to point you to post 4 in the game. Think about it.

Lets do some scum hunting.

Radelle has been consistently on me, and doesn't seem to like my play, and accused me of lurking or at least tried to clarify if I was lurking. Probtown.

Aether IS lurking and he's not usually a lurker. Probtown bored, I saw him do the LOOK AT ME routine when scum.

Cityelectric was on the Buldermar miniwagon, IIRC for policy lynch reasons pretty much, but was early on symptomatic to my plight until I pissed her off, but still hasn't been opportunistic about jumping on my wagon. Doesn't like the Aether lurking but sees it scummy, which is a valid view. Probtown

Abaddon has been pushing HARD on me, and it feels opportunistic. Defended the indefensible play of Buldermar early. If either flips bad guy, I see this as Abaddon-scum protecting newbscum. If I flip town when lynched, the town MUST look at Abaddon.

Shos votes Abaddon, and abaddon votes shos, early on. Shos doubles down on asshat wagons and is on both Bulder's and mine in their respective heydays, such as Bulder's was. If either flips scum, the distancing between Ab and shos and the popular wagon jumping by shos needs to be looked at. Probscum, but less so than Ab. Maybe just trying too hard as town. Less scummy than Ab.

Buldermar, impossible to read, he does this RVS crap all over the site, and I'm fairly certain its to try to make meta impossible. The favorable view from Ab worries me, but that could just be buddying a loose cannon. Neutral.

Furcolow I don't see the case. He goes after Radelle, with a vote, for play he doesn't like. He goes after Ab for stupid outside stuff but at least clears the air about it. He piles on my wagon later, which I read as a pressure vote. This all looks like scum hunting to me. Probtown.

Everyone else hasn't done anything of note

UNVOTE:

I'm the lazy one. Frustrated with this pathetic town, yes. Trolling? Yes. Lazy? Sorry, Radelle and others might think my posts on the first few pages were fluff or whatever, but I've been as active as anyone in this game, I was keeping notes on the vote sequences and thinking about them, and know mostly what the dynamics in the game are (dysfunctional).

Here or elsewhere, this is not how this game is played. I'm not the lazy one here. Throwing out "fluff" as a scum trait, or badgering one person to continue to explain something to try to get a "gotcha!!!" contradiction eventually, is lazy.

Play better.

Someone make a case for the next wagon. Mine is dead.

[Declan_giggs]

get your vote back on furc.

I see my third scummiest read has a few votes, and I didn't get a town vibe from this post.

VOTE: shos

[Declan_giggs]

I see a lot of shos' "flip-flips" as him latching onto the votes and opinions of his town reads, either by sheeping their vote or sheeping what he

thinks

they are saying, other than being inherently scummy.

Radelle, SHEEPING is shorthand for "acting as wolf in sheep's clothing" right? I interpret sheeping as inherently scummy...trying to blend into the flock (never understood why its not a herd) of other sheep.

[Declan_giggs]

Oh. Well, I thought it meant what I said I thought it meant, and my vote on shos reflects that I think his behavior is suspicious, not dopey.

[Declan_giggs]

I've done this part of the game before Radelle. You know, the explain it again thing? Done with that. Get the wagon going again or use your vote productively by moving it off me, or else you will be asking me why you went from a town read to a scum read for my reads.

[Declan_giggs]

Arithmetic: 320-67=200something. Math is hard. A shit ton of posts have gone by, reads change.

Also, see post 4. I've already suggested reading and thinking about it.

[Declan_giggs]

Furcolow, being lowbrow, offensive, and lazy does not qualify as a legitimate playstyle.

For once Abaddon and I agree on something (no sarcasm). Even us VIs have some standards. Cmon man

[Declan_giggs]

Legitimate question I do not want to get in site trouble: Are we allowed to talk someone's meta after THEY are dead or only when the game involved is completely done?

[Declan_giggs]

The case on Aether seems to be that he posts percentages, which people don't seem to understand. I don't see what's so hard to comprehend, he is basically scaling his reads: if someone is 80% town, he feels more strongly about their townness than someone he puts at 70%. Its the same as those of us who use a spectrum or list. In fact, its more nuanced because he can show degrees of his own confidence in his feelings.

Let me suggest that there is a case to be made on RedCoyote, who I thought was a replacement he was so silent early in the game. He hasn't really done any hunting in this game at all. He has zeroed in on Aether and just keeps saying the same point over and over again.

I love how there is a faction of people who say Aether has no real reasons for his reads, but their only reason for the scum read on Aether is that particular alleged fact. Its quite circular logic really, in that it is just as applicable in reverse.

[Declan_giggs]

Prod dodging.

Scummy

[Declan_giggs]

My read on Buld keeps going back and forth based on *censored*. It would be fair to characterize my feelings about him to have once been childishly frustrated and now childishly satisfied about his play. My recent null read on him has now leaned, incredibly recently, to a scum read.

Most of my play for the first couple hundred pages was tinged by that frustration. If you were hating Buld I loved you and didn't concern myself with if it was bussing or whatever. So yeah I may have buddied up to shos earlier. I reserve the right to evolve my reads of anyone. I reserve the right to make mistakes in my reads.

One thing I missed in my day ago summary post was my ill feeling about red coyote. I can't stand players who feel the need to soft claim (term used here) as town in a joking way especially early in the game. In my experience it is often enough a scum tactic to warrant a scum vibe any time I see it. Maybe it's just done here, but I am trying to wean myself of my habit of adapting to here and play more in the style I know and base my reads on my own experience. It's still a game of hunches, liars poker and pattern recognition. I have learned to put very little stock in what people say their motives are I interpret votes in their own context.

That said, do you think furcolor is more worthy of your vote than shos who you are verbally pushing on hard?

[Declan_giggs]

Ebwop : soft claim (term used here?). Do you use the term here and mean sneaking in a town claim in some subtle jokey or subliminal way?

[Declan_giggs]

@Declan

: That is the response I'm looking for. I'm all for changing reads as the game goes, it's just that you haven't been very transparent and it's been looking like you've changing your reads arbitrary on the go. I know whom you're referring to concerning that other game stuff. Concerning shos, do you still think shos' scumminess is in association with Abaddon?

Also, I think shos is town. It's Fur who I think is scum.

I will re-read and answer your question, Radelle. I more have to do an honest assessment of whether Abaddon's push on me makes me think he's scum or if it would feel scummy objectively.

But my other game just dawned d2, and I have an exam tomorrow. And I'm an old man (not really, just my knees) and exams scare me now. So I have to study. And the stupid trick or treaters. So, figure something credible from me this time tomorrow. I'll try to resist smarmy one liners in the meantime.

[Declan_giggs]

Shos, I don't know how plainer I can be. The only reasoning you gave for your vote hinged upon your approval of Declan's points against Bulder.

I dislike the pigeonholing of me you're doing there, Declan. Bulder sticking to his guns in an unpopular position is a very Townie action, particularly for someone who is somewhat new and poorly-versed in gameplay. Newscum that are being attacked on a game theory level are apt to equivocate and fold, stepping down from their firm stance. NewTown, however, are more likely to be stubborn and double down.

That said, Bulder thus far has been an idiot. He's completely wrong in his RVS theory. RVS (outside a Micro, where it can be dangerous,) is absolutely necessary. He's defending an overrun position. It is important to note that I am defending

my

interpretation of Bulder's

actions,

not his position. I am not an apologist.

Also, Bulder himself said it was not an OMGUS vote, upon which you promptly labeled it a reasonless vote, which you would have done anyway had he claimed it as an OMGUS vote. You created a double action trap - either way, you were going to attack him for his answer. That speaks to a preconceived position on him, not a genuine investigation.

Shos could just be an idiot. Declan has clear ulterior motives.

Unvote
Vote: Declan

God, I hate to bring this up again, but its from a different perspective. Have I satisfactorily owned up to my ulterior motive being external to the specifics/roles of this game? Mea culpa, not mea mafia.

Abaddon has moved from me being convinced he is scum because OMGHeWasPickingOnMe, to neutral. He has asked tough questions and spread around his focus more than I thought. Still feels like trying to lead us lambs to a slaughter, but I don't take supervision well in any path of life. I'm not ready to do a full 180, and any of his major FOS's true alignments may or may not leave him with answering of his own to do.

My leading scum candidates:

RedCoyote, claims to be scumhunting but really posts reads based on personal attacks, just iso'd him and most of his stuff has phrases like "emotional crap", "whining", "tantrums" etc. His strategy seems to be "I will call someone scum AND a baby, in such a demeaning way that they will react badly and prove my point". Hotheadedness does not equal scum.

Absta101: has seemed very eager to get on a wagon, any wagon, from "more votes on Bulder please" to EVERY OTHER WAGON: Bulder, Declan, Aether, City, Furc.

Buldermar: bad play trying to cover occassional scum play. And now the prod dodge post. Plus, viewing his actions in context of *censored*

Shos pulls in at a distant 4th right now, dissipating that feel based on my reread and realignment on Abaddon. I totally disagree with Ab's infamous POST 27 case on Shos, but I still think there is a whiff of scum there, but less so than before. I should probably unvote him but its doing no real harm either.

[Declan_giggs]

Radelle asked my read now on Abaddon is different. I went back and found the ulterior motive thing as being at the heart of what was going in between Ab and I. Rads question got lost in the noise of the aether wagon.

We wait for an official count then a claim.

[Declan_giggs]

I am going to iso City and see what I can see. Its a good point that was made that she sat on Aether and managed to be there for the lynch. I'm pretty sold on Buldermar as scum too.

[Declan_giggs]

Cmon shos, don't remember the infamous POST 27/28??? He has been fixated as you being scummy ever since that, because you said a post of mine was a good post, and *mumble*....

I have you as a scumread, mainly because you were wagon happy during Day 1, and sometimes your logic runs counter to how I've been thinking and so I tend to interpret it as making stuff up. But I felt that way about Absta and that uneasiness about him was way off the mark obviously, so that and other stuff has me moving you down my list more toward neutral.

[Declan_giggs]

@shos: I've iso'd CE and don't see anything that others (rainbow) aren't already saying better. And it doesn't make me go OMG IVE FOUND ME SOME SCUM the way it is rainbow.

Not voting for CE at this time. I see why poss-scum but I don't feel its all that conclusive

[Declan_giggs]

In 278 redcoyote says " I make concerted efforts to keep my points concise and easy to understand as town.".

And yet i feel when he has been here he has done anything but that. He posts lots of multiquotes and throws in little tidbits but hasnt done any real scum hunting imo.

Beyond that his play can be compared very closely to the case on CE. Right down to sitting on his early vote of Aether and sitting there aboard the wagon all the way to lynch, despite listing me as most scum somewhere. And im pretty sure i got to at least L-2 during that time. Very odd.

VOTE: RedCoyote

[Declan_giggs]

I reserve the right to rev up my poss-scum read on CE (454) if we get even a little more of ^^^^

No scum hunting, the only case is OMGUS on Rainbow and low hanging fruit of Buldermar's post, which I didn't even take that bait.

[Declan_giggs]

Regarding Declan_giggs

Let's briefly go over the events again:

1) DG reads me as neutral.
2) I prod dodge.
3) Furcolow votes me for prod dodging.
4) DG claims to find my prod dodge "scummy".
5) DG attempts to justify his sudden change of read based on meta.
6) DG claims that I've been doing "bad play trying to cover occassional scum play" despite the fact that I've only been posting a prod dodge since he read me as neutral.
7) DG says he's sold on me being scum.
8) I call him out on his (in my speculation) plan to vote me/start a wagon on me by voting him and claiming that he will OMGUS me soon.
9) As expected, he uses this as an escape route to having to explain his sudden scum read on me, ironically pointing out how he avoided my trap.

You're scum, and Furcolow (now rainbowdash) is a likely candidate to be your partner.

Buldemar, you know that I recently was able to find out your alignment in another game. This information updated my read on you from null to scum in this game, based on comparisons.

I also give you enough credit to have realized you needed to shut the hell up for a while at the end of day 1 to avoid being lynched, because people were ready to in this game just based on what a nuisance you were. So your prod dodging is further evidence of that tactic.

Your timeline falls apart in light of the fact that I have NEW confirmed meta information about you. Bringing up all your posts on site makes your meta readily available to anyone regardless of whether or not we can link to it and discuss it explicitly here. So your sequence of events conveniently leaves out the new information I had on you and makes it sound like it was some new ploy to go meta on you. No, your alignment in another game was information I got and used to sway my judgement here. It could and would have gone the other way if the information I obtained was opposite in nature.

Its popular in this game to say that I have you as a scum read, but I have someone else as a stronger scum read so thats where I'm voting. I'll get back to you. And then if we are ever in another game together you can vote me in that one too because you are still mad about this one.

[Declan_giggs]

RD, people often have a mindset that they lose if (1) they are personally lynched or (2) a power role is mislynched/exposed to nightkill. Game to game you have to roll with the town/team you are dealt.

[Declan_giggs]

Why did you protect Radelle, City?

[Declan_giggs]

Buldemar, you know that I recently was able to find out your alignment in another game.

@Mod

, this is not the first time Declan_giggs refers to an ongoing game, and I suspect it wont be the last either. Am I out of line in asking of you to either stop all this talk of ongoing games or make a statement that allows for me to also discuss it? I don't want to risk getting modkilled just because you missed all the times he talked about ongoing games when I finally decide to respond to it.

For your information, I have never completed a game with Declan_giggs, so all talk of other games are unfinished games.

Declan, you're treading a thin line here, and buldermar has a point. Ongoing games

do not exist.

Do not refer to them, allude to them, or at all acknowledge that they've happened in this thread. This is the last warning you're going to get.

Thank you.

Newbie 1272 is completed, Buldermar was town, and he played quite different to how he played here. He was pedantic and argumentative, and annoyed players with his style, but was not as aggressively confrontational with his early play and didn't pull the "RVS is over" crap. Here he deliberately drew fire early, and has set up a nice WIFOM situation to camp out in.

Take your thin line, shine it up real nice, turn it sideways....

[Declan_giggs]

Why did you protect Radelle, City?

So that this doesn't get lost in Bulder's latest round of hiding behind mommy...

City, why did you protect Radelle specifically?

[Declan_giggs]

Why did you protect Radelle, City?

So that this doesn't get lost in Bulder's latest round of hiding behind mommy...

City, why did you protect Radelle specifically?

For someone who just got a final warning for unfairly taking advantage of game mechanics by breaking the rules of the game, you sure have a big mouth. We'll see how you'll do now that I can actually, within the rules of the game, respond to the crap you throw at me.

Am I supposed to cry and stop playing because mommy spanked me? Was your scummy goal to muzzle a vocal townie? Answer: yes

SCUM: Buldermar

Anyone who doesn't see it?

[Declan_giggs]

Why would you protect the towniest, most universal town read? Please explain in the context of your role.

[Declan_giggs]

That's fine. I'm interested in

city electric

's answer to my follow up question 569. Hopefully somebody else sees where I am going with the line of questioning and carries the ball if I'm not here bcuz:

I am LA until Sunday evening. Kids at my house; bad mix with arguing in mafia games.

[Declan_giggs]

Build is totally wrong too. FH is the 'correct' fakeclaim for scum to make in this setup because if you assume three FH claims its still under a coinflip for scum to be lynched and 2/3 chance both FH eat it for one scum, totally worth it for them.

If CE is a FH they should protect as if they believe they will be countered tomorrow for what should be obvious reasons.

Learn my username or a correct abbrevation of it.

Actually now that I have thought about it, you're right, but only in part. The correct statement would be that all claims boils down to WIFOM, so there is no such thing as a correct fakeclaim. If, for instance, all scums will fakeclaim healer for the reason you mention, we just don't lynch claimed VT's. Claims are WIFOM.

Hey Build you have several grammatical errors in this post. You should print it out and get busy with your red pen. I will get you started, it should be "claims boil down". Just some friendly help there Build.

[Declan_giggs]

Ok, noted Build. I'm sure we will all try to do better.

[Declan_giggs]

Wow the rapid canyon/greygnarl slot has done bubkiss in this game. Grey drops in every once and a while, complains there is a lot to read, and routinely changes his mind about anything. This slot does not compute as scum. Bored vanilla is my judgement there.

[Declan_giggs]

I quite seriously dont understand why there hasnt been at least one claim. If CE IS the FH they could protect each other every night with 50% chance we would keep our town numbers up and help with PoE

[Declan_giggs]

I guess? It seemed like it was all theory if the cop was alive, not reality following a real live claim. Ive tuned out certain things, like i assume most people have tuned out the trolling bewteen me and Buildabear

[Declan_giggs]

I still want to know why CE chose Radelle, the towniest commonest town read, to target N1.

[Declan_giggs]

City seems to be avoiding our company.

[Declan_giggs]

I still want to know why CE chose Radelle, the towniest commonest town read, to target N1.

Because I thought she would be a good scum target. As a rule of thumb, it's a good idea to kill the most common town read for the NK (unless someone claimed a PR, of course). After all, both factions are a bit in the dark about who has received which role PM.

Now, tell me what you thought you would get from asking this straightforward, obvious question.

Do you understand the way your (alleged) role works? What if the OTHER faith healer also targetted Radelle? You would have cancelled each other out.

It makes me sad to see all this pontification about the desirability of the faith healer claiming. Its an incredibly weak role in this setup if they can't work in tandem, either protecting each other or assuring that they dont duplicate their targets.

For this reason, when asked about a breadcrumb, you should have been able to point to a Day 1 post breadcrumbing WHO your target would be. Your breadcrumb is that you used the letters f and h? The faith healers' duty is to protect town players from NK, not save themselves from a lynch.

Weak play doesn't mean you are scum, but it does mean I am not sold 100% on your claim nor that I feel you would be much loss to my "win condition" as you so snidely put it posts ago (iso reminded me). At least the other FH would then be free to operate at 50% efficiency instead of potentially 0%.

[Declan_giggs]

Greygnarl must be peeing himself in fear

[Declan_giggs]

funny how this is precisely what I said. prefuckingcisely, lol.

baseline said it's a good thing

Oh, sorry... but I already know you're town so I'm not too worried with carefully reading your posts ;P

Buldemar said he

KNOWS

Shos is town.

Can we lynch Buldemar please. I feel strongly he is scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Buldemar

[Declan_giggs]

Buildabear is actually frustrated I'm not modkilled. He and Abaddon had their shot to lynch me day 1. It didnt happen and its not gonna.

I claimed vanilla town while i was teetering between L-1 and L-2. I am still vanilla town.

Massclaiming is a great idea if the following is stipulated: if three claim, one gets lynched today. And if we lynch a fakeclaimer, the two remaining real FH must protect each other every night until the 50% roll fails.

[Declan_giggs]

I didnt jump any guns, i already claimed. I had to wait my turn to say it again?

[Declan_giggs]

Hey everybody. I literally can barely wait for one post to get made on this site. Meanwhile.....

[Declan_giggs]

Buildabear is actually frustrated I'm not modkilled.

If I wanted you modkilled I would have just pointed out all the times you've broken the rules in this game. I didn't - I just stopped you from continuing with it. Quit the whining kid, it's getting tedious.

SOOOOOOOO. Here's the thing. Everybody, please do me the courtesy of paying attention to this post of mine, I've been eager to post it for a while now, and even GOTZ IN TROUBLE by getting too close to the line where we pretend games that anyone can read at any time don't really exist.

But now I CAN talk about NEWBIE 1298. https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=23717

Newbie 1298 was a glorious town victory. Why you may ask? Because Buldermar, in Newbie 1298 was a VILLAINOUS SCUM, did the "I declare RVS over" thing, and proceeded to derp up the game. Amazingly, he was partnered with the IC in the game as his fellow scum, and yet played so horribly that the newbies in the game managed to figure out his scumminess, lynch him Day 1, and in true Buldermar fashion, in the post game he blames the IC for bussing him too hard.

You can read the game if you want, but I recommend you spare yourself the frustration. Its why I've been a mental case in this game, I was basically playing the same game twice, he was doing all the same things in both games, it was clearly scummy in both places, and then I had a confirmed scum hit on him over there.

Its very clear how damning the case against him is. He is so desperate to not talk about that game that he tried to get me mod killed for implying its existence here. Well, suck it up, Buildabear. Its all out there for anyone who should be interested to talk about now.

My vote will be on Buildabear until he is lynched, or you all foolishly mislynch me. Get over your "scum reads" on me, realize that this is how scum Buldermar plays, read his other completed game or games for comparison, its very clear.

[Declan_giggs]

@709.
I read your post, and it is interesting and I will read that game till the place bulder is lynched.
meanwhile, @Bulder: do you have any finished games as town in which you did that "I declare RVS over" thingie? please link me before I vote you.

No, because I did not to it in my very first game, but have been doing it in every game I've played in since the very first game with the exception of games where RVS was over before I had a chance to declare it as such. I've only finished my very first game and one other game that I replaced into aside form the game that Declan linked.

There is one other exception, but that's an ongoing game so I can't talk about it.

If you wish to vote me, please read the game Declan linked and post your case against me. I'll defend myself to the best of my ability because a) I trust that you actually care about figuring out my true alignment (obviously, Declan doesn't, as should be obvious from reading his hostile messages about me in the end of that other game), b) I trust that you're capable of understanding stuff that I explain and c) I know that I'm town so I'll have an explanation to every possible question you may ask.

Hostile messages? LMAO. The mod wouldn't even let you post in the graveyard QT because you were such a disruption to the game.

[Declan_giggs]

I'm done with games with Buldermar, come to think of it.

I've said before, please check post 4 of this game. I replaced into it during confirmation stage. When was the last time you replaced into a game during the confirmation stage and ended up anything other than a vanilla townie?

Since I'm a vanilla townie, I'm not doing any undue harm to this trainwreck replacing out. Although it should be a hoot for you all watching the search for someone to replace me.

@mod: or should I say Buldermar's mommy: please find a replacement for me

@ Buldermar: go fuck a monkey, you arrogant douchebag.