Open 466: Nomination Mafia - Town Wins!

[Top12Gun]

I be confirmationing. /in

[Top12Gun]

Umm, I find that just a little scummy that you wanna speed lynch ANYONE.... VOTE: Thor665

[Top12Gun]

"Just a little" = sarcasm. My apologies for ambiguity. And yeah, if you suggested speed lynching anyone, I would have found it scummy, not just me.

[Top12Gun]

Oh, just "anyone" and not 'you'?

Explain how his choice of words is scummy in this case.

And yeah, if you suggested speed lynching anyone, I would have found it scummy, not just me.

Do you believe that mafia would seriously advocate a speed lynch with full knowledge that doing so would be an obvious scumtell?

WIFOM, pure and simple.

Im actually cool with my vote.

@T12 - Your vote was entirely OMGUS, yes or no?

Nope. If he had wanted to speed lynch you, I would still think it scummy.

Oh, just "anyone" and not 'you'?

Explain how his choice of words is scummy in this case.

Simple - he's distancing from it.

I am fine if he has issues with me calling for a speed lynch, no surprise there. But for some reason he didn't call my specific act (wanting him speed lynched) as scummy, but instead called the general act (wanting anyone speed lynched) as scummy.

That makes me think he went through a mental connection of saying something because he wanted it to sound generally townish.
"It's bad to lynch town"
As opposed to;
"It's bad to lynch me (I am town)"

If you grok the distinction.

Understand what you're saying, but bad process; It's completely based on faulty assumptions. Besides, I would argue that speed lynching ANYONE right now would be a bad idea, and a waste of a day, since we could be using this time to probe and learn.

[Top12Gun]

Nah, if we lynched scum it would be awesome.
That's the way it works. Lynch town *booo!* Lynch scum *huzzah!*
It's in the site rules somewhere.

Also, I don't think you grok WIFOM.
Also, I think my assumptions are as good (and, indeed, better) than yours.

WIFOM in that when one does something decidedly town (or scum) it could be to appear the other way. Speed lynch advocacy could be viewed in the same light: If it's obvious scum tell, then obviously scum wouldn't do it. In other words, when Devourer asked if you would do it if it was obvious scumtell, THAT was WIFOM.

But see, by speed lynching, we have less to go on. We can accomplish more going forward if we use this day fully than if we speed lynch and gather little to no info today.

And your assumptions are crap since I'm town.

[Top12Gun]

WIFOM in that when one does something decidedly town (or scum) it could be to appear the other way.

Actually, no.
It's getting caught up in the trap of thinking that they know you would take it one way and so did it that way to influence you...but then you have to ask if they knew *that* and thus did it that way to reverse influence you and...WIFOM.

Doing an action that can be interpreted two different ways is not wifom at all - it's reality.

I didn't articulate very well. The definition you just gave is exactly what I was shooting for.

Speed lynch advocacy could be viewed in the same light: If it's obvious scum tell, then obviously scum wouldn't do it. In other words, when Devourer asked if you would do it if it was obvious scumtell, THAT was WIFOM.

That is potentially wifom - except he has clearly come to a conclusion in his own mind, making it, at worst, an attempt to toss you into wifom...or, at best, an attempt to make you justify your stance...which is pro-town.

But I would view his approach of just asking it like he did and not saying much more as rather unhelpful. But that could just be me.

But see, by speed lynching, we have less to go on. We can accomplish more going forward if we use this day fully than if we speed lynch and gather little to no info today.

Maybe.
I'd still rather speed lynch scum than talk a lot and lynch town.

But we can more effectively lynch scum if we take some time to find our asses than if we speed lynch some poor random fool who has a 5/7 chance to be town. Since the mafia has some control over our only power, to lynch, then we have to make the ones we have count. Your flippancy about this screams "SCUM" to me.

And your assumptions are Smurf since I'm town.

I'm not seeing it yet.

You're maf. I doubt you'd admit if you did.

What's your read on aceofspades?
If you're willing to buss him I'll unvote you.

Scum. I think you're scum even more.

Plus you have yet to explicitly counter my calling you scum. You instead are clouding the air.

Yeah, me pointing out that your meta case has no backing and is based off fluff was *totally* not me countering your case on me.

For someone who put a lot of stock in my wording, you're sorta evasive (not saying "no") yourself.

I'm referring to the one where you monologue in the Mafia QT for about 8 bazillion posts.

It's in your sig bro.

Just saying. I'm kinda bored so I wanted to start a fight.

But anyway......


Just to clear the air. I have done nothing scummy.

I actually have done nothing at all (you're talking a lot/but you're not really saying anything)

so because you've scared me and I don't want to dieUNVOTE: Thor

VOTE: Topgun

Unvote: Top12Gun
Vote: aceofspades

And balance is restored.

Bussing.

you know what? screw you SCREW YOU!!!!!

UNVOTE: topgun

VOTE: thor

Umm, thinking Ace is fail-scum. Or MAJOR fail-town. I'm going with scum. However, I think Thor is the more dangerous of the two. So sticking with him.

[Top12Gun]

VOTE: Ace.

WIFOM, pure and simple.

Explain to me how this is suspicious instead of a null tell.

I can only see a mafia having two reasons for doing what he did, to gain trust in the townies' eyes and to actually attempt to lynch someone. The first reason is basically null, as making what would most likely be interpreted as a joke vote has no effect on his innocence. While his vote can't mark him as scum, it obviously does not mark him as town.

In the case of actually attempting to lynch someone, he'll be forced to change his vote when discussion actually arrives, as more legitimate reasons for voting will appear and not doing so would be scummy. And if he lurks to get away with it, that in itself is a scumtell and an inefficient strategy due to activity rules. Besides, simply manipulating the town is much more efficient. So what does a mafia have to gain from that sort of vote?

In saying that it's WIFOM, I'm taking it with a grain of salt. But aren't you forgetting a possibility?? How about: He's calling for speed lynch because he doesn't care about who is lynched today, and maybe is fishing a bit about who he has to worry about. Tomorrow, he knows a bit more about who he wants to nominate.

Now, I could be wrong. However, especially in a game in which mafia controls every other lynch, I want to be exceptionally careful with our lynches. I don't like speed lynches anytime, and I really don't like them now. Scummy. The grain of salt isn't big enough to cancel out the scumminess that I see.

And your assumptions are crap since I'm town.

Why do you feel the need to stick this into your post?

Because he's full of BS, and I'm town. I'm getting annoyed...

I'd still rather speed lynch scum than talk a lot and lynch town.

So were you serious with your vote advocating speed lynching?

I think he was dead ****ing serious. That's why I'm on him, or at least a large part of it.

But I would view his approach of just asking it like he did and not saying much more as rather unhelpful. But that could just be me.

All I wanted was a response with your reasoning. Why would I need to say anything more?

Yeah, this was a BS feeler. Wanted to see how defensive you'd get.

Bussing.

How would this derive any benefit for Thor? It doesn't make Thor look innocent in any way, as Ace is the obvious candidate for lynch and none of his scumminess owes any debt to Thor.

But he IS distancing early from a sinking ship.

He rose to my bait so beautifully. If he was town and saw me behaving like an idiot he would have just ignored me.

Explain why a townie would ignore excessive scumtells when a jester doesn't exist.[/quote]

IDK, but he's incredibly scummy or a REALLY stupid town... Considering switching votes, but I think Thor is more dangerous.

I'd still rather speed lynch scum than talk a lot and lynch town.

So were you serious with your vote advocating speed lynching?

I dunno - I've never managed to get a speed lynch when I asked for it.

So why ask??

Rainbow, I'm well aware of Ace's summiness, and am on the verge of voting him. The only thing stopping me is what I see as Thor's scumminess and the fact that hopefully everyone already sees how scummy Ace is, and would lynch him after Thor.

To everyone not named Thor or Rainbow: Is it just me, or does it seem like Rainbow just chainsaw-defensed me??

[Top12Gun]

I think he was dead ****ing serious. That's why I'm on him, or at least a large part of it.

Why no commentary about me providing proof that I make that request as town?
If it's such a big part of your case on me...wouldn't you want to explore that?

Also, if you're so convinced Ace is my buddy you should be sheeping me. I am known to hard bus Day 1 sometimes.

I don't see how in hell town would make that request at all.

[Top12Gun]

I think he was dead ****ing serious. That's why I'm on him, or at least a large part of it.

Why no commentary about me providing proof that I make that request as town?
If it's such a big part of your case on me...wouldn't you want to explore that?

Also, if you're so convinced Ace is my buddy you should be sheeping me. I am known to hard bus Day 1 sometimes.

I don't see how in hell town would make that request at all.

[Top12Gun]

Sorry for not posting more recently. RL got in the way.

If I were scum, would have stuck both of us on the first wagon to try to give one a semi-clear status. But that's just me. Still think Thor is scum.

VOTE: Thor665

And I'm not sure what I think about Devourer, especially since Thor, his accuser, is at the top of my scumlist. I honestly see him as trying to scumhunt, and doing a pretty good job of it. But if I'm completely wrong on Thor, then I would then transfer any suspicion I have to Devourer, thus far.

And it could easily be Rainbow, IMO. Thor/Rainbow might make sense, in that using the tactic of agreeing is counter intuitive and might be one big WIFOM... But yet again, this could easily be the ramblings of a noob.

[Top12Gun]

That would be sexy.

Well in that case:

I'll be honest - the parts where we're agreeing (Toroid too) is because I'm dead serious when I say none of your cases make any sense.

So...wanna address how I already proved your suspicion is meaningless and silly? Just because it's a new day doesn't mean you get to now act like the suspicion is justified simply because it's older. I would actually love to see you doing any sort of scumhunting at all...or maybe explain how what you're doing *is* scumhunting?

Well firstly, I'll put your meta on the shelf for awhile since you've sufficiently proven that inadmissible (at least for now.) But let's look at what I see as little scumtells:

In post #12, you say, referring to a speed lynch "Oh, you find that only a little scummy?" implying it should be more so. (Small, yes, but I still find it scummy.) In post #28, you create a false dichotomy for no apparent reason (speed lynch scum vs. talk and lynch town.) In post #43, you say we should be sheeping you, but give no reasons why. You say in post #16 that a word choice, yet you act as if the same type of argument is groundless when Ace makes that point about you in post #35. You want people to sheep you in post #43, but give no further reasons why. He completely ignored

Bussing.

How would this derive any benefit for Thor? It doesn't make Thor look innocent in any way, as Ace is the obvious candidate for lynch and none of his scumminess owes any debt to Thor.

But he IS distancing early from a sinking ship.

I'd still rather speed lynch scum than talk a lot and lynch town.

So were you serious with your vote advocating speed lynching?

I dunno - I've never managed to get a speed lynch when I asked for it.

So why ask??

All this combines to make me see Thor as scum.

And I'm not sure what I think about Devourer, especially since Thor, his accuser, is at the top of my scumlist.

And would scum not accuse a scumbuddy?

Yeah, but this could be applied to every FOS in the game...

@Top12Gun - while you're ignoring my meta - could you also drop me a link to any completed scum games of yours?

I'm an impatient noob with only one game on here, and that as town. So, no, sorry.

I'll want to see you explain how Name User is buddying Top12Gun after you get your feedback from him.

This. I had to do a search to find his posts, and all he's doing is unintentionally making a straw man of my argument. Definitely not, lol.

I kind of thought there was a difference in the cases though. Top12Gun's was about the request for quick lynching specifically, and then User's was about me trying to ride the WIFOM train. Basically one called me scum for doing an 'obvious scum action' and the other called me scum for doing an 'obvious scum action to try to look town' which, is similar, but struck me as different attacks.

Also, with, what, three pages or something, how much variety could they really have at that stage? Is it even scummy to begin with? I seem to recall a lot of the Ace votes were all due to rather similar reasons, yeah?

Here's where I run into problems: this screams town to me. Thor didn't have to post this. If he were scum, he could have let this run it's course with at least one likely town possibly dying. But he didn't. That gives me pause.

Top12Gun's was about the request for quick lynching specifically

I cant believe I missed this.

Its why T12 is scum, and due to that Thor is town, and why Toroid becomes the default lynch.

Remember why T12 jumped hard on Thor to start? He was suggesting quicklynch stuff (jokingly) which T12 said was scummy. How did the day end? Me essentially quicklynching TAOS. T12 repsonds to this by NOT attacking me but instead continuing a crusade against Thor who has some suspicion against him?

Thor is the easier lynch, im not sure if T12 is nervous about me tearing into him since I already am calling him scum or just thinks that he can get the Thor lynch right here, but I dont for a second buy that as town he pays no attention to something that he views as a scumtell.

T12 is scum, for that reason alone Thor is town. This should be me vs Toroid no questions asked today.

Umm, several fail arguments here. 1, I would have preferred a longer day, but I was less stubborn about it because I, too, thought he was likely maf. Ace was terribad town, and see where that got us, but not gonna blame you for hammering because I would likely have done the same if I didn't 100% believe Thor was mafia. But how the hell would me flipping scum make Thor town?? I mean, it would help his case, but would by no means clear him. And the point is moot anyway.

T12 is contradicting his theorys when convienent all over the place, staying away from threats, its really basic newbie scum play.

No, I still think quicklynch was counterproductive, but the way Ace behaved, I can't fault you too much. As far as staying away from threats, that must be why I'm accusing Thor, counter to most of the viewpoints I'm seeing.

[Top12Gun]

@Top12Gun - So me asking for a quicklynch was scummy. Rainbow doing a quicklynch was not scummy. You seem to be standing by that call - clarify?

Because it was Ace after that display of ineptitude, LESS scummy. Still some scummy tho.

[Top12Gun]

And I screwed up the last quote. That's Rainbow, not Toroid.

[Top12Gun]

Vote: Toroid

Yeah, I'm sold.

Top12 is

dancing

like a boss right now

.

Only part you got right.

Snipped this so as not to unnecessarily lengthen my WOT:

Hi guys. Steam is shit and updating again. And only 144 posts is easy to sort through.

Also, if OP is correct and the Mafioso are ‘stereotypical’, I think we should start posting pictures of ourselves because we all know the best way to determine if people are Mafias or not are by their choice in clothing.

I’m just going to ignore the fact that I can only lynch one of three people for now and offer my thoughts on everything.

Thor starts off with what I think is a reaction test. Topgun responds well (I think takes Thor too seriously).

Theaceofspades enters on post 20. From four posts I’m starting to get a vibe that this may be the newbie who seems scummy as hell. We’ll see.

1)

I’m not sure why Thor hasn’t pointed out the possibility of taos being a noob town yet. He must be able to see that taos is inexperienced.

I think rainbowdash contradicts herself in 47. She says that T12 is a scum read, and then says that scum are uneasy getting into confrontation. Wouldn’t the logical thing for scum T12 to do just to not reply to Thor?

Thor continues the taos whatever.

2)

@87: At this point, I’m starting to get a little antsy about Thor’s “vote me and be scum, sheep me and be town”. Although this is probably mostly a joke previously, the fact that Thor says it in a serious manner in this post is disconcerting. Are all of the VIs exclusively voting for you?

Oh god that hammer was shocking.

3)

It’s a page 4 hammer, you flipped your vote massively, called thor “town by default” which is a phrase I find avoidable at all costs. TAOS’ flipping mafia would clear Rainbowdash. I really hope you explain your move from topgun in the future, aside from “let’s policy someone”.

Goddamnit he was town.

4)

I keep forgetting that Toroid is in the game. He’s probably one of those people who get to the end because people just forget him. I would probably say he’s clean by his inclusion in the ‘available to be lynched’ category because scum would have used another random inactive (my predecessor) if Toroid were scum.

Rainbow should be getting more pressure for that hammer.

5)

Thor seems scummy to be right now. He needs to offer something substantial with regards to devourer, not just throw out random names and see if it sticks. I still don’t like his day 1 play—even if you were to policy lynch on day 1, why would you restrict all your attention onto that one person (who you can’t even read anyways)? Really stifles the information us town get to use.

6)

Why is thor town? I feel like I missed a page somewhere.

7)

@114: I’d imagine that Toroid is trying to avoid confrontation with Thor here, either because scumbuddies or because Toroid is sheeping with someone who for some bizzare reason is being taken as confirmed town ( I take back my ‘too friendly to be scumbuddies’ comment from before). In either scenario, Toroid is scum.

8)

@124: Oh. Thor is town because T12 is scum? Does that work the other way around, too?

1. This made me wonder as well,I simply ended up blaming Ace because of behavior, instead of Thor. Looking back, that was stupid because rereading, Ace seems nooby as all get out. Hindsight is 20/20...

2. Got a weird feeling from this, but weird feelings do not a mafia case make.

3. The flip seems a lot less scummy than the complete certainty that Thor was town... On D1.

4. Or maybe both scum are in lynch pool. I definitely would have done that if I were scum, since it temporarily takes heat off the survivor even if one gets lynched...

5. I felt like he was obfuscating - filling by offering very shallow or dead end observations, yet still managing to "participate".

6. This again, after #88... Scumtell on both players, IMO.

7. Toroid doesn't seem to come to any concrete conclusion in this post, typing a lot but saying little. Something that's interesting since he had plenty to work with. Not necessarily scumtell, but something to keep in mind...

8. It doesn't work at all. I have yet to see how there is any correlation whatsoever. Theoretically, I could just be bussing REALLY hard... So this is crap logic either way.

I really dont see how you can make the arguement of "quicklynching is anti-town" followed by "well its not on a VI" who really

He's saying that quicklynching without evidence and hammering a potential scum are different. He never stated that he suspected Ace as a VI before the lynch, so why are you stating it like he did.

This. My point was that while I would have played things out longer, I get why you hammered. Less scummy because of his scummy act which you yourself call a "meltdown" in #47. However, orcinus' case for you is growing on me like E.coli on Canadian beef....

We see TAOS doing an immediate fight back at pressure from Thor, and when T12 comes in, he

ignored

TAOS entirely. Thats the key here, he doesnt put more pressure on Thor or anything like that, he avoids TAOS. He avoids me when I start attacking him.

Thor isnt "confirmed town" but the only way he ISNT town is if just about all of my other reads are wrong as well. When independant reads and interaction reads and gamestate all says one thing, its probably true. If it gets to the point where everypony says they will without a shadow of a doubt vote T12 tomorrow, I would take the lynch for Thor today if thats the way it swings because you still will have confirmed town in him in lylo that way once T12 goes.

I didn't ignore him, I was waiting to see him either justify his behavior, or do what he did. I did, however, note him as scummy in #41 & #50. You yourself admit this in #54. So stop self-contradicting.

You seemed pretty dang sure he was in #'s 88 & 107. And yeah, either your reads are godawful or you're scum.

[Top12Gun]

You cant claim this at all from a logical standpoint. Buck town or scum, you cant claim this and expect to ever be taken half seriously. I hammered ONLY because of policy and what it ment if he was scum case wise. You are fishing for reasons not to vote me. Bring. It. On. Its me and Toroid. Bring it on. If I get lynched today its better than Thor getting lynched because Thor is town, then you get lynched, and then he gets to mop up NU replacement and if its still going has a coinflip.

What about my argument ISN'T logical?? I can see why you voted him: he was randomly posting, and contradicting himself all over the place, either terribad scum or noob town, so you voted him on policy. And seeing that's illogical?? If this were on any player who HADN'T just failed all over the place, I would be voting you like a mother. I would have played it out a few more days just to get some more info, but nonetheless, there wasn't as much scumminess in that as if you had hammered on, say, Devourer or someone else. So either you voted him for those reasons, in which case I was correct in not voting you, or you voted him because you're scum jumping on an easy inno kill. If you were town, you would understand my point completely because what I just described was entirely correct. This contradiction has me believing you're complete scum, so... UNVOTE: Thor665, VOTE: Rainbowdash.

Bite the bit and just go for the vote instead of dancing around and waiting to see what Toroid does to pick your poision. You are avoiding conflict again because you arent sure the safer route.

I don't give a crap what Toroid does, ATM. Right now, he's barely on my radar, just seeming uber-cautious town... Anyone else get this feeling?? That he's town but just very unsure??

Oooh.... so you put "but I think TAOS is also scummy" in the tail end of a quote wall. Thats NOT challenging somepony or anything like that. If anything it can be aruged to be WORSE than what you did because you open the doors for hammering town if things go fast. Bet if I got the Thor wagon to start moving your direction pretty quickly you would have found TAOS as scummier.

Oh, god. You're truly full of crap. First, "HE KUMPLEETLY IGNORED TAOS!!! LYNCH NOW!!" Now, when I point out that I DID find Ace scummy and said so, "ITS NOT ENUFF!!! LYNCH HIM." This is BS and you frickin know it.

Also really? Did you call me scum for saying "Thor is town" instead of "I think Thor is town but am not a cop so while I see him as almost for sure town he is not confirmed town". Grasp at straws more.

Because it's completely normal for town to be dead certain of another's evidence on D1 (in a game without cop I think, correct me if I'm wrong). If I DIDN'T call that scummy, I should be punished in a cruel and unusual way.

And vote me. Lets go. Really you are getting lynched tomorrow because me getting lynched should be the nail in your coffin, Thor flipping town lets me drive it in myself tomorrow, and Toroid flipping anything and you are dead in the water. Question is who are you going to try and bring down? I mean, obviously not Toroid because if he dies you HAVE to get me or Thor mislynched tomorrow even if Toroid is town... so lets do it.

I'm curious. How does Toroid flipping either way make me scum??? This craplogic actually intrigues me, even though it's obvious BS. And were I scum, I'd probably go for Devourer or Orcinus, since they seem the most pro-town...

I retract that comment about focusing solely on taos. A read of your posts in isolation tells me that I'm wrong.

However, I would still say that the ISO tells us that you pushed hard for TAOS. Probably too hard given your stance on VIs.

Thor seems to be a rather perceptive player, regardless of whether he's scum like I think, so it piqued my suspicion both before and after the Ace town-flip that he didn't in the least state the possibility that Ace could be fail town, since he seems like the kind of person who would. Not an accusation or anything, but it made me wonder...

[Top12Gun]

EBWOP: Apparently orcinus and Thor posted while I was in the process of replying, and orc voted Rainbow as well. My vote places her at L-2, correct??

[Top12Gun]

I'd even go so far as to say a Rainbow or T12 scum flip would auto clear the other.

And just to play random possibilities advocate, what if we're both town, as unlikely as that is??

I had partners? Yes I sheeped Thor on page... three? but since then I've been distancing myself. I'm not just sure about him being town.

... that doesnt sound like anything town would ever say.

1)

"Im distancing myself from Thor".... I just... what? I really dont get how you distance as town, or why you do that, or how... again.

RainbowDash, How does me flipping anything change your opinion on Top12Gun? I don't understand this either? Did you make a mistake and put my name in when you intended to use someone elses?

2)

I really dont think there is a situation where T12 doesnt die tomorrow actually. I die and he is slated for death, you die and he his, Thor dies and he is. The only way I can possibly see T12 NOT being lynched is if Thor not only somehow gets lynched but also is actually scum. Neither of those are happening though so hey, T12 is in all likelyhood tomorrows lynch. If you are scum it just makes it all that much easier to get him lynch.

The very fact that Thor isn't being voted for... kinda makes me suspicious.
Well then, let us see where this goes!

Vote: RainbowDash

3)

Wow... you are able to waffle with only two possible votes you CAN make. Really you actually MIGHT be T12s partner with this post of yours. Thor is suspicious... but guess where you end up for ????? reasons.

4.

Anypony else realize that T12 just voted me essentially for "called me stupid"? Also yes, im actually KNOWN for hardcore defending a player on a gut feeling or single tell day one, ive stopped town lynches quite a few times. Its what I do because my track record of reading town as town is rediculously good, in most games thats how I find scum, working backwards and then going through and putting a case together once I get about half the game who I refuse to lynch.

1. I actually agree with this. Toroid's post brought this immediately to mind. This makes me think I might be wrong on Thor or Rainbow, and Toroid might be a partner. At this point, I have 3 people I find scummy. What to do....

2. How the **** does Toroid dying slate me for death?? And for that matter, either you or Thor is scum, and quite possibly both. If scum dies today, I live!! So when you die, if you're the scum I believe you to be, then I don't die tomorrow either. Scum dying changes the whole damn picture.

3. The reasoning behind both of these posts is bad. Toroid should have fleshed his point out a LOT more, and it better have been more than what he said, and you just contradicted yourself re: Thor, unless that was an attempt at paraphrasing Toroid.

4. Perhaps I'm just imperceptive, but I didn't get called stupid anywhere that I can tell, lol, so nope. I voted for you in large part because of the way you acted about my not finding you as scummy for hammering Ace as I would have if you had quick hammered someone else. Look at it this way: If you're town, you understand perfectly why I didn't immediately accuse you: Because Ace acted scummy as all get out, and if you're town, you see the difference in that. If you're mafia, you know you did that for scummy reasons (getting an easy town kill without a ton of heat). As town, it wouldn't cross your mind that your hammering Ace might be scummy or seen as scummy, because you simply look at it from the perspective of "I hammered on someone I thought was scum. Nothing scummy about that." Your argument that there is no difference in your less scummy hammer of TAOS (which I'm actually seeing as more and more incriminating) and say, Devourer hammering Name User in a QL with little to no evidence, is either stupid, or scum. This sounds like I'm creating some false dichotomy, but that's really how I see it...

Allow me to spell out the T12 scum line as I grok it.
Sell me that I'm wrong and I'll hammer Rainbow for you for lulz;

1. T12 starts the day voting me with no attention paid to the rest of the game.
2. Rainbow calls out T12 and votes Toroid
3. With no real gain to either the Thor or Toroid wagons T12 reaffirms that he dislikes Thor - oh how awful Thor is. Has no comments about Rainbow.
4. You show up and dig into Rainbow, and attack her - Toroid wagon goes nowhere, Thor wagon is totally dead.
5. T12 (who I think is still calling me scum, I'm not sure) shows up and votes Rainbow for no clear reason.

6)

Okay, so, basically scum T12 never really had a need or a point where the Toroid shift would make sense. He also hopped off me with barely a murmer (his super top suspect) and is suddenly all about Rainbow being dead. WOuldn't *that* be the scum T12 hop, and that would make Rainbow town and Toroid more likely scum?

7)

As a theoretical - Toroid is scum who was put in as an easy "clear" (because, as T12 says, he would have put a buddy in) T12 never discusses Toroid, and doesn't even mention Rainbow's Toroid push as a reason to get Rainbow dead. Goal was to have Toroid just be there relatively quiet while either T12 tunneld Thor into lynch or town lynched Rainbow for 'lulz, speedhammah!'

Thoughts?

1. Wrong. I simply thought you were still scummy, for many of the same reasons.

2. Rainbow's argument makes little sense when examined from the angle of, "If Rainbow is town, she understands why I found her hammer less scummy, because she

didn't

do it for scummy reasons and would thus expect me to view it through that lens. Instead, she isn't comprehending why I don't see it as very condemning, and thus must not have any town reasons for voting Ace (or she would see why I thought it town.) Hence, Rainbow is scum." Try that.

3. I don't dislike Thor, I simply think he's scum (though that opinion is also weakening, with the introduction of the fact that Toroid & Rainbow are also seeming scummy as hell to me. ) And I had no comments about Rainbow because I was sure that if she was town, she would think it through from the above paradigm at least once. The fact that she hasn't by now is a red flag the size of frickin Africa. This is why I'm on her so hard now.

4. Thor wagon is dead because other than Toroid, who I haven't quite got figured yet and made a post I can't understand really.