Open 463: Black Flag Nightless (Game Over)

[Thor665]

We should quick lynch Slimer, who is with me!?!
She is obviously active lurking.

[Thor665]

It's called Jesse+You in ISO, it's actually super convincing.

[Thor665]

Thor remind me why N is so trusted? And continuing how slime's low interaction is much better then n's continued tendency to lurk (or at least try to give minimal).

I don't think I said it was or wasn't - are you saying N's lurk is part of the case against him?
I also haven't said I found N to be trusted or town - I've simply said I found others less trusted or town seeming then he.

Although his connection to you has been brought up he's never really talked on it either?

I still don't grok the connection - as far as I can tell it's a theoretical that has more to do with clearing me than affecting him other than that he's my only theoretical partner (even though that doesn't even make a lot of sense in the first place)
Am I missing something there?

[Thor665]

Progress.

Yeah, because you've been noting how tough it has been to get answers out of me thus far.

Why is he more trusted? What in others is worse then him and can you clarify you're read then? And I'm pretty sure you've called him town in the past.

Call it less distrusted.
Basically I see a case for you and Jesse. My case on N would be 'he's fething useless' which, though not a bad case, is hardly a home run of win either.
I've called N town in relation to my scumread on Jesse, yes. Obviously if that is correct than so is the N read.

Thor + Me doesn't work. Thor + Jesse works even worse. Thor + Dead/Ceru/JT requires one of them to be scum. Thor + N doesn't have a problem so it is the only pair you fit in. That's all the connection means I'm just referring to how he hasn't really commented on it at all.

Explain Day 2 in relation to Thor+N pl0x.
I agree with you that I don't look like scum, though.[/quote]

[Thor665]

1. Uh-huh...

2. Not really, I'm only claiming it as a pair insomuch as you're my top two - want to explain why it doesn't work?

[Thor665]

1. Functionally - you're attacking it now. But, clearly that doesn't look like a convincing reason it can't exits 'you're not defending him enough' ...yeah, I'll add that one to my big list o' obvious not scumbuddy tells.

2. Nothing I can think of, but I don't think I need to think of anything besides the giant flaming twenty foot high obvious as obvious can be message written across the sky letters of gold wrapped in bacon.

[Thor665]

@JT - I'd feel better about that if one of them wasn't calling N scummy for attacking Jesse and the other head was calling Jesse the most likely scum. That's an awkward disconnect.

[Thor665]

Why is N scum besides being a common denominator then?

Because we both think he's scum

Good job "answering" the question.
I wanted to know (and you have to squint to notice it) *why* you both think he's scum?
That can be managed, yeah? Why don't you start, and F-16 can do his when he rolls in.

(we are also planning on sharing some more thoughts this week and compiling a

proper

hydra post, so wait attentively for that!)

Uh-huh.

So, you guys talk to each other, or...?

Thor find where I said Jess is "so townish it's scummy to suspect them". Kthx.

See, this is funny, because I'm clearly sheeping N on this point and applying pressure to you, but you're so confuzalated you want to challenge me for it.
I honestly had no idea what post N meant, but since you hadn't called him a liar right away I figured it was true.
So now I have this challenge, oh woe unto me, I may need to Ctrl+F an iso...

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p4492394

There.
Done.

Soooooo....now that we establish that Jesse is such a huge townread for you guys that attacking it literally becomes a scum plan...want to remind me why you think Jesse is most obvious scum in the game and how that relates to N being scum who wants Jesse lynched?

I love to hear stories.

[Thor665]

So, you guys talk to each other, or...?

Thor find where I said Jess is "so townish it's scummy to suspect them". Kthx.

See, this is funny, because I'm clearly sheeping N on this point and applying pressure to you, but you're so confuzalated you want to challenge me for it.
I honestly had no idea what post N meant, but since you hadn't called him a liar right away I figured it was true.
So now I have this challenge, oh woe unto me, I may need to Ctrl+F an iso...

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p4492394

There.
Done.

Wut?

So me saying I think some one is trying to push a mislynch because they're pushing a lynch in a scummy manner becomes I think Jess is "so townish it's scummy to suspect them."

Is this real life?

I feel like you're trying to distance from the details there.

You did call Jesse town. You did call the push on him scummy. You did call N scum for wanting to lynch Jesse (because Jesse is so town it is scummy to want them lynched).
So - yes, I do think that shows what I'm saying it shows.
How does it not?

Also, how do you feel about your hydra buddy calling Jesse obv. scum?

SLIMER DO SOMETHING YOU USELESS SACK OF SLIME

I will offer agreement of the general concept that Slimer is useless.

[Thor665]

I will offer agreement of the general concept that Slimer is useless.

[Thor665]

We'll have more once Mehdi gets back from school.

Weren't you going to address some stuff about your case on me that I called shenanigans on and Mehdi went 'Baaaw, y'gotta talk to Oversoul 'bout that stuff, baaaaw!'
That's how I recall the conversation going - maybe you should answer those questions?

Thor - why did you encourage absta to replace out?

Because he was lurking.

[Thor665]

@Soul - I have already answered that question multiple times this day phase. Which parts don't you grok?

[Thor665]

@Mehdi part of Soul - also, get Oversoul in here to answer those questions he was supposed to about the case on me. I feel like I'm being dorked around on being given those answers.

[Thor665]

I want your read of him independent of anyone. Last town reasoning was with jesse scum he wasn't likely a partner. Beyond he hasn't done much what is your read on him.

And OS's next post should answer your questions (well when he get's on next today).

~M

1. And, as said, I've already done that, so...?

2. Uh huh...

I can't begin to read everything here...

Mod... Sorry to do this, but can you please switch me out?

[Thor665]

Calling him scummy for being useless/weak *is* a read.

[Thor665]

You've got what I've got.

[Thor665]

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/do-you-even-lift

[Thor665]

Thor, approximately how conservative would you say you are as a scum player?

I'm not exactly sure how to answer that as I'm not sure what I would call 'conservative' and what I would call 'extreme'

I think the real answer is one of varying degrees. Like, for instance - fake PR claims. As scum...I basically go with VT all the time when fakeclaiming unless I'm specifically some sort of scum PR in which case I'll laim only that *exact* PR. I don't think I've ever broken that habit. I think that is a highly conservative playstyle.

Conversely, I'm willing to make a case on just about anyone, and intentionally choose to make choices that are steeped in wifom. I know one of my favorite scum kill tactics in lylo is to kill my biggest suspect/the most obvious mislynch. I do it, and then just argue that it makes the up-till-then obv. town players more suspect. Um, but I actually think that is maybe an 'unusual' strategy as opposed to a 'non-conservative' strategy.

I suppose my answer is - I always play in the way I think will help me win. I do seem to have a handful of non-common ideas about what will do that 'help me win' concept, but whether that makes me conservative or non-conservative I'm honestly not sure. I suppose I'll hedge towards 'conservative' if you want to twist my arm - because I do spend a lot of time wishing my scumbuddies would stop playing so derp most of the time...but that may just be because I have a high opinion of my scum game and tend to frown on anyone who doesn't play it like I'd play it...and with that as an idea I think I'm probably conservative insomuch as I have strong opinions about what will win and do not like to see that plan deviated from.

Though I'd like to think I'm not predictable.

...was that wishy-washy and fence-sitty enough as an answer

Thor, what didn't you like about this post?

I would immediately counter with - what did you like about it?

But allow me to put it into context.

Voting Thor - Soul and Piggy
Voting Soul - Jesse and Justin

Jesse had, the day prior, attacked N because of sheeping Thor.
He continued to attack N in that post.
He also attacked Soul.
He defended Justin and called him townish.
He didn't mention me at all.
Except that he voted me and moved onto a person he had sheeped yesterday and did so by moving off a wagon on a scum read (supported by a town read) and hopped onto a wagon with someone he had just been attacking (and also with Piggy...who I'll guess wasn't a town read)

It was a super odd switch with no internal logic other than "this will make Thor the biggest wagon and I didn't explain or justify the move at all...um...yes!"

Just looked terribad.
And came on the heels of his pushing on Soul and ignoring N action from earlier in that day phase, even though he was attacking them both throughout.

[Thor665]

Oh, and if you're tossing out the Thor/N pairing you can explain to me the logic of that one.
Y'know, where F-16 thinks I tried to save a busted buddy by bussing the other one?

But you wouldn't exactly be bussing would you? There was a very little chance that an N wagon was going to happen that day, not with the way Sixty hammered Voided and how much JT and I were arguing for the Sixty wagon to happen. You could have very easily planned to "push" an N wagon to "trap" someone ahead of time and argue that it was a pro-town maneuver.

Okay, and that brings us back full circle to "then why would I not buss Sixty for towncred?"
Yes, if we want to say my scumhunting was fake scumhunting because I knew there would be derp town who would fall for it and that was better than just speed rushing Sixty on a day he obviously was not talking to try to limit town's ability to learn more - then, yeah, that was my plan.

[Thor665]

Yes, as long as we presume anything Thor does that looks pro-town was done for wifom hijinks then I have no defense as to why I am town.

[Thor665]

Thor there's a difference between everything you do that looks pro town is wifom and that one thing you did with N is wifom.

Actually - no, there isn't.

Has Oversoul got back to explain the case yet?

[Thor665]

1. Obviously not, he drifted through once and did gak for it. I just want to make sure you're pounding it into his head to do the second time around.

2. The ability to dismiss one via that method applies equally to all. If I just did it that way because I knew it would look town, then obviously I'm capable of playing to look town constantly - therefore all of my town actions can be faked. So...?

[Thor665]

2. Since disagreeing on one likely town behavior doesn't equate to disagreeing on all. Ceru wasn't using it on all of your town actions (which I'd be curious on hearing you elaborate there).

Read my answer again.

[Thor665]

P-edit: What'd did I miss? Sure that reasoning could be used to nullify all of you're town looking actions, but it hasn't.

[Thor665]

Here's a hint, because maybe you actually are town and just this bad.

If it can be applied to ALL of my town actions.
Then it is not a tell that can be disproved since it relies on the theory that I am doing town things specifically for wifom games.
Therefore it cannot be responded to.
So...?

[Thor665]

In fact - try to come up with a viable answer to it that isn't "but I'm not doing that" and I'll sheep you today.
Then shut up about the derp question.

[Thor665]

You want me to make a town case on myself...?
No.
I have explained why your scum case is lolsilly - that's all I need to do, especially when you haven't even managed to finish having that conversation yet.

[Thor665]

Are we still waiting for Oversoul...or something else?

I know I'm waiting for Oversoul, but mostly out of morbid curiosity.
What are we waiting for? The

Slimer

Jesse replacement? Is that it? Ceru, you really expect brilliance to come from that?

[Thor665]

Also, didn't someone want to hold off to read some more past games, who was that feeb?
And are they done now?

I want a list of what we're waiting for so I can help make it happen so we can lynch the replacement.

[Thor665]

N wants Deadpool to justify their attack on him.
Thor wants Oversoul to justify their attack on him.
Ceru wants a replacement to talk to and frolic through the tulips with.

Anything else?

[Thor665]

@Deadpool - wouldn't that be Post 1339 nested in those quote tags where...you kinda accuse him of pretending to not see something?
Just me?

[Thor665]

@Deadpool - ....whut?

[Thor665]

I'll bother quote striping OVersoul if anyone besides Soul is interested.

The basic point is, if you actually pay attention - literally something like 30% of those answers don't even follow the original conversation we were having.

I think it's all made up gak and scum smokescreen (just the in-game stuff, the family/school/dog stuff sounds rough). It *might* be town and just terrible because he's so distracted...but...meh. I'm (shock) still pretty content with the idea of a Jesse or Soul lynch.

I'm confused why Soul wants to go searching for a piece of info that made Absta replace out. If Soul finds it, logically he would also need to replace out. The quest makes no sense.

[Thor665]

A lot of that stated suspicion might have been intentionally exaggerated to force reactions.
I've also stated why I'm ignoring N.

I've played with him 4 times.
I've lynched him for being scum 4 times.
He flipped town 4 times.
I loathe his playstyle and find him terrible - but I can't read him. That said, the general consensus seems to be he's either buddies with me or with...who, Jesse? Soul? One of them, I forget.
Therefore since I know he's not my buddy that means if I lynch his theory buddy I don't need to make any call on him other than agreeing I find him suspect.
Win.

But, yes, I have called a lot of you scummy...kinda the point of the game.

[Thor665]

Sooo, why does N always feel bad and scummy to you?

My presumption is he's not good at playing town.

Please show proof of why you think this.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

[Thor665]

Hurm, I also wanted to link to some game that I know exists where we sat around in the DeadQT talking about how I read him like that, but I can't find it.
Whatevs. It exists.

[Thor665]

Hurm, I also wanted to link to some game that I know exists where we sat around in the DeadQT talking about how I read him like that, but I can't find it.
Whatevs. It exists.

Why did you want to prove it?

Because...I...was...asked...to...prove...it...?

Was that a mistake, because if not, umm.. how do you know he's town here?

The core question was why does he always feel scummy to me.
That should answer it.

[Thor665]

The core question was why does he always feel scummy to me.

Umm, well, that proves nothing expect that he's scummy in this game.

Which is what I've been saying.

Y'know, how we should be lynching scummy people?

Absolutely.
But it's not like we have a lack of scummy people.

I think you're talking about Newbie 1288

http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/PjYNnvyYpgc if anyone cares.

And I do seem to always call you scummy - you should probably get better or something

Lulz.
Yeah, that's the one.
Unless the new thoery is I lied there to help a future game situation where you were my scumbuddy.

...as though if you were my scumbuddy I wouldn't power lynch you for town points asap

@JT - as someone with a townish vibe on him, how do you feel about Oversoul's case on me and my reaction to it. I would think one of us would look bad there considering the intensity of what I'm saying about that case.

[Thor665]

@JT - as someone with a townish vibe on him, how do you feel about Oversoul's case on me and my reaction to it. I would think one of us would look bad there considering the intensity of what I'm saying about that case.

No, not really. Making a bad case isn't scummy.

Bad case is as bad case does.
His case isn't even talking about the things we started talking about - it's just random anti-Thor blather.
Thoughts?

[Thor665]

Because that's how you do it? It looks silly otherwise.

It actually always looks silly.

Votes of GTSO!

^^^Sorry, some of that might have been snarkier than I intended. This game is getting on my nerves a little right now.

That's because we haven't lynched anyone and all we're doing is sitting around drinking wine and wondering why everything is getting so convoluted.

[Thor665]

Thor did CES's play change your read on the slot?

~M

Is he playing the game yet?
(No.)

He always calls me scummy; I don't know why

Because you play scummy.

[Thor665]

I agree that Soul is in an awkward position to keep having scumteams while ruling himself out.

[Thor665]

How many do I think you make sense with? Jesse, Deadpool, and the outside paranoid JT possibility.
What of it?

And of course I rule myself out of the pairings, I never suggested it was bad you were doing so.
Derp.

[Thor665]

Oh my gawd can we please just hammer him?

[Thor665]

Thor I took it as an implied negative. And you/jt works if we're doing paranoid scum teams (I also consider me/dead a paranoia scum pair).

Thor/N is a paranoid scumteam. So...

Is it because I refuse to call myself obvtown?

It's because your cases lack internal logic, and you also pair combativeness with lurkiness and odd focus.

[Thor665]

It's because the sheer concept of that being the team requires a rather convoluted concept to how Day 2 went down.
I declare that believing that concept equates to paranoia.
Apparently you are arguing it is normal and sensible scum play to be expected.
Well...I'll admit I feel you're obligated to argue that, but that's me bringing in my own opinions to the question.

[Thor665]

Uh-huh...

[Thor665]

You are - but you got there in ways that didn't make me happy.
The journey matters as much as the destination - all your vote really says is 'I'mma not buddies to Jesse!' which is useful info and all, but hardly a glowing hat of pure town to wear atop your noble brow.

[Thor665]

Yeah...not really there high pants. Your suspicion of him came because...I dunno, he called you out for not voting him. Start of Day 3 you weren't calling him scummy, you were just defending the case. In the next post you're voting him because he called you names. Felt really fake and illogical. If I thought Jesse was town I'd be voting you fairly happily right now.

[Thor665]

I will say though - going back to start of Day 3, N did some soft defense work on Piggy.
Decent semi-town tell on him.

[Thor665]

On scum scale? I've already provided that and was annoyed by having to do it the first time - I hate scum lists, they're dumb.

[Thor665]

What's to be curious about it? It seems a rather straightforward comment.

[Thor665]

Good - we've been lacking in lengthy debates and long periods of waiting while people are reading meta.

[Thor665]

It's because the sheer concept of that being the team requires a rather convoluted concept to how Day 2 went down.

How so? If you're scum and decide to do some off-beat counterwagon, then why not pick your buddy? Especially if you're going to jump on someone who followed you D3 - that's never going to be your buddy if you've set it up this way.

Well...if we 'set it up' it's never going to be my buddy either.
Also it was pretty obviously not a counter wagon.
The best argument I can see is that Thor plotted the following;
1. Sixty will be definitely lynched.
2. Neither my buddy nor I should bus him.
3. I'll try to wagon up my buddy and feel really confident at least one town will come with my non-presented accusation so I can push him Day 3

Yeah, I'll accept maybe that happened.
But it's totally paranoid and involves odd scum planning.

I will say though - going back to start of Day 3, N did some soft defense work on Piggy.
Decent semi-town tell on him.

Why do you always do this weird Smurf of soft attacking N and then just muddling the waters and saying oh but he's slightly town so

Because I don't have an agenda about how people read him, because I'm painfully obv. town - duh.

[Thor665]

Yeah, that makes sense as a case.

[Thor665]

I understand what you meant - that's why I answered to that point.

Point 2 rather does matter - especially considering I'd flat out called him scum the Day prior.
Point 3 begs the question why bother then if I didn't care if I got a town to follow me or not - why not just bus?

[Thor665]

I will if needed for a lynch, but otherwise I want thor lynched more then N. Not sure what you've read, but post 1177 gives the case on him (which is later argued)

(which is later argued)

(which is later discussed because Oversoul makes incredibly bad cases as town and there was debate whether the presented case was a town or scum tell for the Soul slot)

[Thor665]

And your useless slot didn't even DISCUSS that discussion.
You just let it slide past.
Hint: if there is serious discussion about your case maybe being a town tell because part of your slot makes incredibly bad cases as town...then it's probably not a case to base a vote on.

[Thor665]

Yeah, you read and added to it and didn't even understand why parts of the case were even included.

And do you have a reply to my response to Oversoul's defense of the case? I mean, I was pretty ^FETHING^ dismissive of it...and you said nothing.

Whassup?

[Thor665]

I'll bother quote striping OVersoul if anyone besides Soul is interested.

The basic point is, if you actually pay attention - literally something like 30% of those answers don't even follow the original conversation we were having.

I think it's all made up gak and scum smokescreen (just the in-game stuff, the family/school/dog stuff sounds rough). It *might* be town and just terrible because he's so distracted...but...meh. I'm (shock) still pretty content with the idea of a Jesse or Soul lynch.

I'm confused why Soul wants to go searching for a piece of info that made Absta replace out. If Soul finds it, logically he would also need to replace out. The quest makes no sense.

"Upon reading this reply to a case I fully agree with and think is correct...I should probably not comment on it. It's not worth calling scummy."

[Thor665]

You feel incredibly fake to me right now - with so little time to deadline what are you expecting to accomplish here?

[Thor665]

You being lynched. Currently the largest wagon is at 2 votes. You're at one. One more vote and you're tying for largest.

~M

Yeah...but 2 of the people not voting me have openly been calling me town. So that means you need to get both of the others and have me not bother with defensive voting.
And should have started this about three days ago.

You could've bussed but that's a bit pedestrian. Trying something fancier is a perfectly legitimate option and there's certainly no reason why you wouldn't pick your scum buddy as your target.

If you think this, than I don't think you grok how I play as scum as regards bussing.

[Thor665]

I see more chance for CES wagon growth than Thor wagon growth.
Eventually people will notice he's busted scum who is just jerking us around and not actually playing the game.

[Thor665]

And those people are? JT doesn't seem to be one, Ceru is leaning N, and the rest are voting.

And amazingly it *still* has a better chance to go through than your wagon on me.
So...

[Thor665]

I'm addressing all the relevant points CES has provided so that...oh...wait...

[Thor665]

Well, let's see, I have been standing around pointing out that we should lynch him, suggesting all other cases are weaker, and encouraging people to notice how useless he and the last few people in that slot have been - does that count?

[Thor665]

Tammy or well anyone else, if there's anything you think I'm missing or need to re-look at you should post it in the next hourish or two.

Start of Day 3.
N clears Piggy.
Discuss.

[Thor665]

Tammy or well anyone else, if there's anything you think I'm missing or need to re-look at you should post it in the next hourish or two.

Start of Day 3.
N clears Piggy.
Discuss.

You've already given up haven't you?

And why is ces/Thor impossible. CES is calling Thor scum (basically) but is refusing to answer questions and is using pretty hard away from a Thor lynch. And thors not really trying to get CES lynched either.

Which one of your heads was actually derp enough to start selling Thor/CES - I want the name so I'll know.

Soul is also basically claiming scum in thread.
Just saying.

[Thor665]

I think soul is looking more and more town. Don't get where you're getting them scum claiming.

It was a good game and I do enjoy playing with you Thor.

Just find me any game ever where town says this sort of thing.
I've literally never seen it except from scum.
Have you?

Thor you think we're claiming scum and you're still voting CES (which hasn't really gained the traction you've been pushing for).

~M

I am aware of the difficulty of herding cats.

[Thor665]

I don't think you're qualified to comment on how people are or are not pushing things anymore.

[Thor665]

Deadpool's is a different vibe. His was a general announcement after a lynch.
What Soul did was the smarmy call out of 'good game, buddy, you played so well...shame about your role PM' prior to any lynches.
It's a different type of call out.

[Thor665]

Yeah, saw it earlier, gave me some hesitation on him and did seem townish, that said his entire stance on 'Sixtys case on Piggy was bad' kills whatever good that did.

Flip will tell.
And I'll be the first to admit N's play in the last 24 hours has been terrible and a half.
But I'm thinking I'm right and you just derped.

[Thor665]

I already said it was paranoia based more than once, okay?

[Thor665]

Just lynch him the hell already, I'm so sick of this game day.

[Thor665]

Soul is super not town.
Especially if it's shopping Thor/N.

You're all kinda derp for buying into it too - seriously. The use of "secret evidence" and you're actually buying into it.
What is this gak?
If it was real it can be elaborated on. Even if just to say "evidence in an ongoing"

It's a lie and an attempt for a mislynch of a better than N player at a strategically important moment.

You all are kinda derp.

[Thor665]

It's a lie and an attempt for a mislynch of a better than N player at a strategically important moment.

lol?

lol?

[Thor665]

I've gone into I HATE THE TOWN BECAUSE THEY'RE PLAYING BADLY mode.
There's a subtle difference.
Mostly that I'm not trying to be funny at all. I'm trying to clarify how much I kind of hate you all while not outright calling people rude names.

[Thor665]

No - because if I'm right I want to be super in your face right, not my derp 'helped lynch her out of boredom' right with Piggy.
I want to be able to be on a pillar mocking you all and actually get to cram through a vote tomorrow without three weeks of nothingness ending with Ceru taking a level in derp wagon push analysis (because it wasn't clear I checked out instantly when you guys started grinding the game for "research" that has you doing the lynch you were clearly wanting to do anyway and hand waving the things I did bring up)
I want to have a game day where a top suspect can't just post fluff (through two different incarnations) and still be called functionally more town than me.
I want a game day where people notice how bad Soul is playing right now.

That's what I want.

[Thor665]

Huzzah - if this is a town flip I expect boot licking.

[Thor665]

Regardless of flip Operation Part 1 of after mod flip post will be explanation of the sekrit speshul case.

[Thor665]

I HATE YOU ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Thor665]

I kind of especially hate N, because I even UNDERSTAND why town players voted him - but gah!

[Thor665]

Ugh Thor - I was nowhere near set on wanting an N lynch until recently. I was seriously looking at the Jesse/deadpool/n/you slot and I was on vacation for a week, so I really don't know what you're talking about.

I may just be tooting my own horn - but one "skill" I think I have in mafia games is a strong ability to feel who is going to be lynched and who isn't. It's one of the reasons I felt comfortable enough to play with the Sixty lynch.

You were all going to lynch N today - the writing was painfully on the wall.
Jesse was a decent shot to have happen and I thought maybe it would happen...but...no.
However, yes, N was a dead man walking. I really believe that, I also really believe all the reading done by everyone was really just looking for justification to lynch him as opposed to reading for actual alignment - the problem with 'reads' when decisions have already been reached.

Also - hate you all.

[Thor665]

So Thor - are you doing that thing you do where you go caps raged frustration to look town when you're not?

Want a link to me doing it as town?
You don't get to talk to me like that right now.

[Thor665]

Oh, and WHO WOULD EVEN BE MY BUDDY IN THAT SCENARIO!?!

[Thor665]

Then why not sheep me, damnit?

[Thor665]

If you are town - I hate you.

[Thor665]

Above is @Deadpool.

[Thor665]

I wanted to look for reasons I was right about N, when my biggest paranoia was you and deadpool. But, carry on...

Did you even do this? I don't recall fielding one question from you to me about Deadpool today.

[Thor665]

Flippin SOUL!!!!!

[Thor665]

That at least explains the Soul shift to me with N still being scum - but I can't believe no one else was spotting that gak.

[Thor665]

I'll honestly admit - I would not have guessed Soul/N.

[Thor665]

I'm surprised Thor didn't see U was trying to save N.

I saw it - but I thought the logic was this;

N is suspect in multiple pairs.
Thor is suspect only in Thor/N (for reasons that still escape me)
If we get Thor lynched today that leaves N available tomorrow for epic ownage and lulzscum win.

That's what I thought was going down, which is why I started frothing at you and pointing out how you had claimed scum and everything else...and no one listened to me and then apparently all decided I must be scum because I was angry that town was falling for it.

Maybe my rage doesn't come across towny? - Sad times.

[Thor665]

(Which is why I rather don't like White Flag).

white flag is definitely balanced. this is too just it might be one of those theoretically balanced setups that's super hard for scum

I think it's just a setup that can be affected more by player quality than more power role prone setups.
Hand this same setup to a newbie queue and I would expect scum to roll it fairly handily.

[Thor665]

What killed Sixty? :/ The meta thing or the Piggy gal fail meta thing?

The quickhammer instead of facing the case on him.

[Thor665]

The quickhammer did it for me - after that there was no doubt.
Prior to that it could have been debated.
My perception.

[Thor665]

i don't get the hammer. yes they had 2 players very strongly convinced they were scum but vm was probably the lynch. so eh the quickhammer felt a tactically poor play. at the very least n and soul could have used some more towncred from lynching you normally.

Agreed.
Thor was even defending him (though actually I liked that posted case quite a bit) and then *bam* scum claim, Day 1...for the glory of lynching Voided...

[Thor665]

I said it in the scum qt, but I think it's hilarious that Thor always reads me as scum and then, when I actually am scum, decides that I'm town.

Eh, didn't really do it till I settled on Soul.
But, yeah, it was annoying.

Thor, your sense of humor gets me. I do like playing with you even though I think I'm Reading a different language.

It's Tibetan Monkey Gawd language - it's semi-common.

Also, I don't understand why replacements were in an issue in this game. Anyone care to elaborate?

presumably they were hard on scum? *shrug* it happens. this type of game will attract good replacements anyway, it's just impossible to deal with them in nightless

I agree, there are a large number of the "better" players who seem inclined to prefer games that focus on scumhunting over PR interactions (and, also, I have to admit, like the idea of no one getting to just kill us in the night)

[Thor665]

I can't think of one other than attempting to minimize the number of replacements out each game by creating some sort of "X has replaced out of Z many games" list to make people feel bad about replacing out of games while remaining active on the site.

Replacements happen. Some are legitimate, some aren't. We can discuss the Katsukis of the world and talk about how site culture is moving toward an attitude of "if you aren't having fun, just replace out", and ideally replace it with a mentality of mods generally not allowing people who replace out to play in their games.[/quote]
I actually endorse the 'replace out if no fun' concept - if they stay they are a detriment to their team. It's no different from replacing out because you don't have time to play, which is also a detriment to your team.

I'd agree that I would like to see more attention given to serial flakers. We have some site policing of this habit, but it would be awesome if something akin to the karma system went back into play.

The other half comes in predatory replacements, people who see a chance to dominate a game they're not in and replace in so they can play the hero. I fully understand why people do this; I question how many of those people have been on the receiving end of that happening to them.

I've never even considered this as a thing - do you really think it is?
I replace in a lot, but I do it more to avoid Day 1 derp and also to be a 'good guy' to mods I like.

[Thor665]

So, then is the issue not one of replacements but rather one of strong replacements?

[Thor665]

Is that any different from replacing in because you see players you like to play with, though?

[Thor665]

Or to consider your point of view - the instant someone becomes lynchbait, they should replace out to help their faction. It's the optimum play; replacements start with a relatively clean slate, it's good for their faction, and they don't have to deal with the hassle of defending themselves or scrambling. Why

wouldn't

you jump off a sinking ship? Getting lynched is no fun, after all.

Nah - there's a difference between playing the best you can and being unable to play.

Replacements of any caliber coming in because they think they have a good chance of joining the winning side.

I guess I'm saved from this because I never even really look at a game before replacing in.
But, still, whenever I replace in I expect to be on the winning side.

I have to admit, maybe just at least for our discussion, the core issue can be summed up in your note about "having a scum loss on our record"
I think the problem and the complaint would stem from players who have serious goals/desires as regards their record.
Maybe we need games that are geared towards this that punish replace outs more appropriately?

[Thor665]

@ Thor, interesting hypothetical:

If you replace out at the end of the Day and no one replaces in yet and the mod announces a replacement during the night, and that replacement is killed the same night (without ever getting a chance to post), would you consider the game as part of your win/loss record? Assume you had a legit reason for replacing out.

I've never replaced out or been replaced, so I've never had to consider such things.
I have been that replacement...

I would probably proscribe to the concept that a replace out is akin to a quit and either not count the game or count it as a loss, and do that for all replace outs regardless of the situation of what happened afterward because it would be an absolute condition.

No, I'm interested in playing to win, which is remarkably harder when forces outside the game consistently proceed to pull the rug from under me.

I always play to win - I'll honestly admit I consider replacements to just be part of the hand you're dealt.
It's like when you're scum and the utter VI has the Innocent Child role and you're basically obligated to kill him. Or, when you're town and your strongest town read reveals he's a confirmable PR. Yeah, it would be so much easier to win if those situations didn't happen like that. But that's mafia, adaptation of gameplan is part of the joy of the game to my mind.

[Thor665]

Eh...I'm not sure I agree with that stance. On a theoretical level, yeah...but I feel like that's saying 'a player having a bad day and looking scummy because they're kvetching and easy to peeve off in thread is outside the game'

As I often say, all votes are serious and all posts can have scumtells - especially the non-serious votes and the non-game relevant posts. I sort of feel once the thread is open; it's go time on every level.