Open 487: Hard Boiled Day 3: A sinister Murder

[freezing-hell]

VOTE: mathdino for beating me to the punch.
Hello everyone. Looking forward to play with you all. I agree with Mathdino, tracker is a lot better. It doesn't hinder the other PRs as much.

[freezing-hell]

Hey rach and Larry David. Nice to see both of you in this game <3

Like I said - I would be more happier with a tracker being picked on Night 1, but if the player who has the control of the decision is experienced while being a vig and is confident that they can kill mafia without hitting town then pick the vig.

That's quite the fence you're sitting on, Piratecat. You'd rather have the tracker, but if the person in question is confident then he can be vig? That puts your opinion exactly back into the middle. There are ofcourse pros and cons for all the roles, but trying to advocate a role that has a higher chance of hitting town then scum sounds anti-town to me.
2:44AM right now so I'm off to bed. But first:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Piratecat

@mod: double post to fix the quote code, if it's not too much trouble, could you delete the other one?

Done.

[freezing-hell]

You all have been hella busy. Will take me a while to dissect it all. Will respond later on the other posts. First gotta get some breakfast in mu tummy and get some work done.

UNVOTE:
Wanted to see how people would react to that. Plus, PirateCat didn't go in some extreme defense mode. He still posed questions to others as well.
Nekoko on the other hand, I do have a question for:

Because as much as much as possible I vote someone who I feel is suspicious, I'll probably vote Piratecat.
I'll unvote when he clearly states that tracker should always be chosen and vig should only
be chosen if the PR was unfortunately about to be lynched OR unless someone could come
up with a compelling reason why vig should be used.

So what if he doesn't state that? What will happen then with your vote on Piratecat?

FH, that accusation is contradictory in and of itself.

It was. And Neko's post was based on the same so I wonder why are you not mentioning him in some way or another? Do you find me and/or neko suspicious at this point? Same question to Dino.

speculation on the set-up is just as anti-town as "fence sitting"

It got the ball moving so it served its purpose.

[freezing-hell]

I'll put forward some more content later today, but first another question to Neko:

Would you agree that I could paraphrase your post, which I quoted earlier, in this way:

"PirateCat is suspicious because she put forward an argument that possibly promotes sub-optimal play with a vigi, instead of a tracker." ??

[freezing-hell]

An ill put this on a separate line to emphasize
My vote on you[dinomath] is completely serious. I think you are scum. I am not screwing around.

Actually 54 is spoken completely from a scum standpoint.

This makes sense.
VOTE: Voodoo Lady

That short a period of time, what made you change your vote?

[freezing-hell]

I think the strat makes sense.
Freezing hell, why do you think it's more important to solidify Nekoko's opinion than justify your own?

Not sure what I should be justifying. I was backpedaling into a reaction test according to Dinomath but there is no way to frontpedal into such a thing, now is there?
I don't mind Dino's vote, at all. He's following-up with his suspicions. I would do exactly the same. Now, I want answers from Nekoko for the same reasons. Following-up.

[freezing-hell]

@ FH, I did want to note Nekoko's own strange call there, but at that point i didn't have a lot of time before i had to go to work. And Nekoko was only calling her on fencesitting - she wasn't claiming that PC was simultaneously on the fence and advocating Vig.

So you find that her vote based on fence-sitting is decent and doesn't require probing? I guess it must mean that as you haven't questioned her yet, even though you did state you wanted to note her strange call there.

[freezing-hell]

Freezing: are you actually reading my posts because I would find that hard to believe.

Perhaps I missed something, but I can't find the reason why you suddenly voted for Voodoo lady. Could you elaborate?

[freezing-hell]

Woops. I did seem to have missed that, pardon me!

It's not a bad decision to reveal hider, but I think it's better to wait. Let's say that people start suspecting this person, and if he then claims, he knows that those people who voted for him might be scum, and thus he shouldn't hide behind those.

[freezing-hell]

I want the hider to claim at the end of day 1 for sure. I want him to be honest in all his reads, there is no reason to not do that. But I want him to claim at the end. Why claim earlier?

[freezing-hell]

I'm assume you mean E Roll with 'Mystery'. I don't like FH's

jumpiness

on everything, nor his complete

nonchalance

with a lot of people's suspicion, nor the fact that his early vote looked nothing like a reaction test and more like

opportunism

. He also

doesn't

actually

seem to be going anywhere

with any of his posts, and thus isn't helping the town much. Reason why I think him over E Roll is honestly more of a gut thing- E Roll's vote and reasoning seem much more natural (albeit misguided) to me.
I encourage people to vote freezing-hell until the pressure starts ramping up.

Highlighted the points of interest. What do you mean by jumpiness? Also, I am not trying to be nonchalance at all. Ask me anything, and I'd gladly respond.
How is a vote in the very first 15 post being opportunistic, when we were even still in RVS, and I was trying to get us out of there?

[freezing-hell]

So for the hider i'd go with:

A) Claim when you are under real pressure, but don't claim too quickly. There is likely mafia on your wagon, so that's potential information we could use. If this is not the case, then:
B) Claim at the end of the day

[freezing-hell]

@Freezer: When I say 'jumpiness', it's usually a synonym for 'opportunism'. Basically jumping on everything, casting slight suspicion without actually doing it. Your first vote was opportunistic because the reasoning looks dumb and contrived. Now even more so, now that you backpedal and say it was a reaction test.

Here's your question though: What were your thoughts on the 'reaction test' by casting suspicion on and voting Piratecat?

You might want to meta me, if that 'jumpiness' is what you are concerned about. That's just the way I play. Besides that, I am helping town because I am asking questions:as to why people vote, how they would change it, and why they don't pressure someone who did a similar action as someone else. You think that all pointless? Because I don't. I am trying to scumhunt, trying to get discussion going, and maybe your way is different from mine. That doesn't mean you can just notch it down as 'opportunism'.

My first vote was like I said a way to get things moving past RVS. You're hanging on it way too much. Why would a scum ever do that? As for the reaction test, I wanted to see if anyone would lull themselves into believing my arguments. Just to see who would jump on board. Neko did, hence the questions I posed to him. Honestly, I am fine with being in the spotlight and answering questions if it helps my case. But atleast don't just dismiss the things I say.

freezing-hell- 'Jumpiness', terribad reasoning, and some dodging.

What you call 'jumpiness', I call questioning. What you call terribad reasoning, I just call a way to get things moving and elicit responses. Yes, to be honest I didn't thought i'd get such responses though, so maybe it wasn't the best move. But what has been said cannot be changed. No clue where you are getting the dodging from. I've been up here posting left and right, and not avoiding anyone.

Now then, with that said, back to reading!

[freezing-hell]

I can’t believe the consensus is it’s OK for town not to read the thread before casting “serious” votes. I mean Orc entered the game at post 29 how much effort would it have taken to read the thread? However as the majority of town views my opinion on the matter as somewhere between misguided and scummy it seems stupid to hold onto it.

@freezing hell your vote against PirateCat has received a lot of negative attention being called badly reasoned and opportunistic, you’ve tried to explain this as an attempt to get the ball rolling and leave RVS. Can you then explain why you didn’t place a vote upon unvoting PC? Do you feel your non-vote is more beneficial to town than a random vote would be?

UNVOTE: Orc
VOTE: freezing-hell

There are still four persons who I have yet to hear from. I didn't want to place my vote just yet. Plenty of time to put my vote somewhere.

[freezing-hell]

But I am bothered that you don't have a vote on somebody.

There are still four persons who I have yet to hear from. I didn't want to place my vote just yet. Plenty of time to put my vote somewhere.

I'll put it out soon enough. No reason to rush it when 3/4 players are basically AFK.

Oh no you didn't. WIFOM? Upsetting.

How terrible of me.

Oh - and I am witholding my reads until everybody has posted in here. I don't want them to lurk around while everyone forms their impressions and then jump in.

[freezing-hell]

Because all of you read fairly town to me. So i'd rather wait to pass judgment when all of the players are atleast here. It's not that difficult, guys. It doesn't hurt to wait a bit longer to vote or tell who I find scummiest. Stop giving me bullshit on that account, because some other townie will read all of this and make a judgment call based on this.

Just hold yer freakin guns for a day or two. It's Eastern so many a people have other matters to attend. And we have three weeks. Also, MathDino you are tunneling way too hard. You said i've been dodging.. Where have I been dodging. I just see you repeating that my defence is fucking crap and when I do give you an answer you don't do anything with it. Stop ramming the same arguments down the willing throats. So far I haven't done that much besides asking some questions. Woop-di-fucking-doo, I must be scum for that and not sharing my reads when some of the players aren't even active yet.

On another note, I didn't mind Mr. E's vote so much on orc. His logic was quite understandable. I misliked how he changed his vote though. Not sure why switching votes was that necessary.

[freezing-hell]

...
UNVOTE: freezing-hell
VOTE: orcinus_the original

Your whole case is about that while he wrote so much more?
VOTE: Mr E

[freezing-hell]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=21452 Newbie 1221

The game where I played with FH before. In that game though he was very new, he was more aggressive in his play. There was no hanging back and he got right into the game. Very different from his play here. I am kinda liking my vote where it is ATM.

That whole game was different. We had a lot more going on in the beginning. This game will come to that level soon enough.

[freezing-hell]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=21452 Newbie 1221
I am kinda liking my vote where it is ATM.

So because I am less aggresive ( with voting you probably mean? Because I am not sitting idly by) it warrants a vote.

So what's your opinion about the rest of the group?

[freezing-hell]

@ FH which players are not active yet? Who are you waiting on to post before sharing reads?

Larry David. You. Fresh. PirateCat. Marangal. You all had but a few posts (larry david/Fresh have zero). Those posts were not that alarming so I can't say you're scummy yet.

I'll go through everybody's posts now. Although still it's not that much too work with, for some people.

[freezing-hell]

Getting to all of it, combing through everything at the moment. I'll go player by player.

[freezing-hell]

@ FreezingHell, can you please provide the justification of M.E Rolls vote that you're clearly seeing as scummy? Well, I expect you to in your readlist, but extra detail if you're voting him because it's not exactly clear.

In the beginning of the game, he voted for Orc, which was okay in my book. Then he changes his vote, crying its confirmation bias and that he'll change because every one is giving him shit on it. Then, he changes it BACK to Orc after receiving shit from Orc that is trying to throw away his reads and just sheep. He builds his case around the same point. Still about the 'not-reading-the-thread' part. He neglects any other posts of Orc, and orc has written a lot. Now, I don't believe that's worthy of a case. I don't like that he's jumping back and forth with his vote. Reads scummy to me.

[freezing-hell]

Leafsword

@ FH, I did want to note Nekoko's own strange call there, but at that point i didn't have a lot of time before i had to go to work. And Nekoko was only calling her on fencesitting - she wasn't claiming that PC was simultaneously on the fence and advocating Vig.

I didn't like how you said you did want to note her strange call but that it took prodding from my side to get you to do it.

I am voting Mr E Roll.

An understandable vote, although I don't agree that it's scummy.

Freezing hell, why do you think it's more important to solidify Nekoko's opinion than justify your own?

I liked this. You're zeroing in on your main suspect.

to town reads of:

Star transmission and Mathdino at the top of the town. For now.

Why exactly is Star Transmission town, or rather TOP of the town? At the time of this post he hasn't done anything yet, besides jumping on my wagon, and repeating what Math had already said on my case. Should I gather from this that if you jump on the 'compelling' wagon, then you're likely town - check that, TOP of the town?

[freezing-hell]

e need to finish this in 3 weeks, not 3 days, guys! S.T.F.D., please!

^this so much.

[freezing-hell]

You read quite townie to me. You make a real attempt to break set up and to persuade everyone. Props for that. Although, there is ofcourse the off-chance that you do it for town-cred, figuring that if not you then someone else would've done it.
Can't find a lot on you, for now, besides your obsession to put me to the block. We're two days in a you're already suggesting i'm the lynch for the day, while many of us haven't even had a lot content posted, lol. You need to slow down, mucho.

---

This is why I out-of-the-blue asked Neko if my paraphrase of his post would be correct:

Would you agree that I could paraphrase your post, which I quoted earlier, in this way: "PirateCat is suspicious because she put forward an argument that possibly promotes sub-optimal play with a vigi, instead of a tracker." ??

which she replied:

Yes and I know it was a good vote especially since we were still on page 1 at that time. So what's your point here?

On the other hand, I will respond to freezing-hell's question.
[...my question posed here..]

Neko's post seems more of a town

following the only suspicion.

Yours, however, reeks of jumping on something

that's not even scummy

. I don't like how you backpedal and claim you were reaction fishing and getting the ball rolling at all. So to respond in two words:
VOTE: freezing-hell

You casted suspicion on me because of that vote of mine. Saying it's opportunistic. I asked Neko if that paraphrase was right because it comes down to the same thing as what I wrote. Now, don't mind that it was just a test on my part, because you didn't know that back then. My point is that you targeted me, and not even looked back at Neko, who basically gave the same argument as I did. Yet for me it's scummy, for her it's following the only suspicion.

I'm not sure what to think of that. You have a lot of town-rep going for you, and so far I do think you are town, but these kind of things make me second guess myself. Also, you repeating the same arguments over and over and over about me is 'meh'.
Town read for now. But slow the fuck down already. We have a lot of time.

[freezing-hell]

I'll keep it short for now, have to run and won't have a lot of time till later this evening. Neko, I'm so sorry for calling you 'him'. Kind of slips in I'll try to be more aware of it. Anyway, will continue with the analyses later this evening.

@Leafsword, the end result after having a look at everybody more thoroughly will hopefully guide me towards the correct decisions on who to vote. Although, I'm quite comfortable leaving my vote on Mr. E for now.

[freezing-hell]

Marangal, what did you think of VoodooLady so far?

[freezing-hell]

FH, I don't remember much of her posts, I don't have an opinion on her or her replacement, why?

Because when hp put in a town-slip you state you dislike it. When VoodooLady did the same thing earlier, you didn't react on it at all. Found this to be a bit curious so I figured that your opinion about VoodooLady might help.

[freezing-hell]

You accuse Piratecat of fence sitting, but what would you say this is? It looks like you're saying he's quite Town, but then you spend the rest of your time trying to cast aspersions on Math. Being unsure is one thing, but it seems you're trying to cast suspicions subtly to use for later. That's how I see it.

What I find more of interest are your thoughts about the points I raised a bit of concern about. I put my thoughts to words and that's the result. I think he's town, but there are some points I found questionable. That's why I raised them. I like explaining why I don't like something, and wish all the players would do this.

[freezing-hell]

Don't have a lot of time at the moment. I'll definitely be posting from next week onward. I'll try to get some more content posts in tomorrow.

[freezing-hell]

most of your posts seem like you are trying keep your self away from conflict as much as possible.

I'm looking through your posts and honestly, I don't feel any of them are helpful. Not sure what I should think of you but at the moment it's definitely not town. Null-tell leaning towards scum. You're doing the exact same thing that you are excusing leaves of ( I assume you mean HP here and not leafsword, but I'm not completely sure ).

If you'd had to place a vote right now, who would it be on? Withhold your town reads if that pleases you but who would be the nominee for your vote?

[freezing-hell]

Nekeko

I'm assuming he was town when you played together. What exactly was different in play right now?

Never played as scum. I was more agressive in that game and nitpicking way more. I've toned it down a little bit. Plus, it was a completely different game, with different styles of plays than this. We didn't have an ultra-aggresive Orc in that game, and not that many lurkers so there was more to go on.

Anyway is mystery = Mr E Roll

Yeah. It's a pun. The pronounciation comes down to the same thing. Mister-e/mystery. It ain't good that a Dutch guy has to explain word-jokes to a native(i assume) speaker!

Are you supposed to post some reads for each player or something?
Well I assume that because you had a post for Leafsword with some special design or something.
When will you post about other players because it will look like
you're buddying Leafsword if he's the only you're going to talk about.

Yeah, i'm posting up my exact thoughts of each players as I go through their posts. Just takes quite some time.

You're leaning Town for now. You do put your vote where you think someone's suspicious, which I like. But can't really solidify my opinion about you as you haven't posted that much yet.

[freezing-hell]

FH, honestly speaking, is your vote on mystery survivalistic to any extent?

For now it is. I might change my mind if he'll put forward strong opinions about the players.

[freezing-hell]

Orc

VOTE: orcinus
I found scum

I mean whoops
VOTE: rachmarie

Oh yeah and Nekoko is probably town

VOTE: mathdino

I was never in RVS you cat-twat
Nek is town because her play isn't as bad as last game and she seems to be actually trying
I'm not too sure why I'm voting Dino let me get back to you on that
Can we stop the vig/tracker thing we've reached a consensus and all we're doing now is basically soft claiming and not scum hunting thanks

All this struck me as odd, but I think it more got the ball going than anything else. I'll just pin it up to style.

ST is like town.

ST did two things at this point. Agreeing that Mr. E is suspicious and agreeing that VoodooLady made a town-slip. The hell does this make him town?

FH, honestly speaking, is your vote on mystery survivalistic to any extent?

For now it is. I might change my mind if he'll put forward strong opinions about the players.

You read by far as the most person town-person to me so far. (btw, the grammatical flaw in your signature is driving me nuts)

[freezing-hell]

RachMarie

I saw a lot of cross-referencing to other games from you and not so much opinions about the players. You're null, leaning scum to me. Simply for the lack of opinions and it looks like you're not playing your A-game. The newbie-game of you and me (1221) you were analyzing left and right. Now you're cruising a lot more and posting games for meta, but to me it feels like you're doing that so that other people will form the opinions and you just get on board then. Could you give me a rundown of what you think of the players so far?

[freezing-hell]

RachMarie

I saw a lot of cross-referencing to other games from you and not so much opinions about the players. You're null, leaning scum to me. Simply for the lack of opinions and it looks like you're not playing your A-game. The newbie-game of you and me (1221) you were analyzing left and right. Now you're cruising a lot more and posting games for meta, but to me it feels like you're doing that so that other people will form the opinions and you just get on board then. Could you give me a rundown of what you think of the players so far?

[freezing-hell]

Startransmission

Please either vote for Neko and/or move on. Your question to (is it not a her?) Neko is fair, but not necessarily strong. To me, Neko provided decent enough reason for his/her vote. I don't buy that Neko aped your argument or rode on your coattails. She just agreed with a premise, right? Furthermore, she explained said premise in far greater detail than yourself.

Not sure why you would urge me to move on when she hadn't even answered my questions yet.

Nekoko has contributed much more than me huh? If you say so. I disagree

You've had 9 posts. Some fluff posts and one expressing concern about Mr. E, and two about my case where you nicely parked your vote on the following arguments:

Being opportunistic is the way you play? Or do you mean placing votes you don't really believe in in order to test the waters? And I personally refuse to meta anyone. I don't believe in it and as a result I get very turned off when players try to use their own meta as a pass on their behavior. As I said, I don't think you are guilty of being opportunistic at the moment. But I am bothered that you don't have a vote on somebody.

Not sure if I answered this already, but no being opportunistic is not the way I play. What kind of question is that? You refuse to meta anyone, that's fine. Doesn't make me more scummy for recommending it though, I just wanted to show mathdino the way I play. You were bothered that I don't have a vote on someone. Why aren't you giving ms Marangal crap about that then? Oh - and I placed my vote now. You further urge me to move on from neko in that post, which is apparently also an argument to see me scummy. And what else... let's see..Ah yeah, WIFOM. Because I point out something that mafia wouldn't ever benefit from.

So: A) Wifom B) not having a vote while there are multiple people AFK and not much to go on C) I didn't move on from Neko. D) Not sharing my reads when there are 3 players afk. Besides that, I'm not the only one who didnt want to give out his reads. Why are you not probing those others about that?
Quite the appealing arguments. Do you still think me scummy because of it?

You're null, leaning scum for now. You jump on a 'cozy wagon' with arguments that would make others scummy as well, but you don't go after them at all. Just me. Nice tunnel. I'd like to hear YOUR reads about the players as well.

[freezing-hell]

Actually FH I think Neko might not be a native English speaker?

I can see why you might think I am cruising more in this game. I have had some health issues which have affected all my games. I will get more stuffs up though. I am starting to peg peeps.

Yeah, you may be right that she isn't a native. Sorrry neko! :p Sorry to hear about your health issues. Hope you feel better soon.

[freezing-hell]

Fos: Ms. Marangal

[freezing-hell]

Your name's first in the ISO list, so don't think I'm tunneling just you. This is just my first real entry into the game.
I will have a vote down (with solid reasoning) later today. I'm interested in your response.

Are you still going to post your opinion about others?

[freezing-hell]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Ms. Marangal
This had better be good, otherwise this vote is staying put.

[freezing-hell]

Fos: Ms. Marangal

Are you going to state your reasons for this?
But after all, I don't see the appeal of a fh lynch. Now moving on to MM in my next post.

I will state my reasons after she presented her case. Although, it should be quite apparent why I voted if you simply read her ISO.

I'm out of town for the weekend so I won't be able to post anything. Will try to if I can though. What I'd like to see happen is that Startransmission will post a bit more, defend himself against the questions I raised, and tell who he finds the most scummiest. RachMarie I hope to see the same from you. And ofcourse looking really forward to this case MM is speaking of.

[freezing-hell]

I was going to ask FH why he blantly sheeped Orc, but then as I ISO-Ed he had a FOS along with other things pointed at MsM.

I do not like 324 mainly due to this better be good or vote is staying put. Makes me think that the vote will stay put no matter what and a semi confirmation bias.

Fos:rachmarie
For not commenting on any of the reasons mm put forward. You don't see anything from her that looks scummy? I know you understand when and why to pressure someone and your lack of it has been noted. Sent from my LG nexus 4.

[freezing-hell]

Ms. Marangal, I just read a whole bunch of nothing in your case against Orc. I'm convinced that you'll be the first mafia to be lynched. In fact, because of the case you made against Orci I would like you to really really make an effort and give a full read on everyone with reasoning and all. I'm sure you'll trip up and point us in the correct direction of your scum friends. And what the heck, if you are town than atleast you gave your input! Win-Win! Atleast there's no way Orc will be lynched so just move on to your next suspect. And don't make cases just of the cuff. You can read everything back as many times as you want. Absolutely no reasons to put your memory to the test.

FH did you read my reads?
I do see things that look scummy but I think there is bigger fish to fry... plus the amount of fighting tween MM and Orc makes me pause a bit.
My vote is on my primary scumspect, Obviously if we get closer to deadline I would switch to MM rather than let us do a NL situation on D1.
So what do you think of hp ?

I did read your reads. Didn't found it all that interesting. I think of HP so far pretty nullish, might read him again but I first want him to share his views on everybody. What did you find scummy about Ms. Marangal then and why is it not good enough to put a vote with it?

[freezing-hell]

Oh, and hello HD! Thanks for replacing in, I appreciate it a lot.

[freezing-hell]

Ms. Marangal I'll show you exactly why I exactly FoS'ed you and later voted for you. I'll start off with my FoS

Orc is town

Gawd...

Orc, your town, though you really gotta think about what you say. I'm not about to start a TvT if I can help it.

I'm wondering why more people aren't coming after me.

I find him[orc] to be town, just annoying town and every time I read a page I want to full out attack him.

Up till here he was your Town read. Later on he's suddenly mafia and your number one suspect. He didn't do anything strange at all.

you just need to worry about me placing a vote on you because my vote is always a serious suspect, never anything less.

14 pages in and you hadn't even once placed your vote. So this is like your absolute scumhunt tool of doom and glory, that you will only release upon someone unless you're convinced he is scum.

I'm looking at how people are reacting to you, and your points but even those are Shifty because

everyone is attacking you.

I have questioned the motives of people that I found to be questionable, and tried to push a case on HP [leaves]

Ehm...No one really attacked Orc? Why would you be looking at how people react to him?

going through the thread...

Dino attacked and made a case on you

Eroll voted you for little reason

Nekoko didn't exactly attack you, though he had agreed with unfavorable stances taken against you

Molliecat had some beef with you, the Mala head more specifically I think..

HP[leaves] had started a battle with you as well, or rather tried to throw some accusations your way while I confronted him

somewhere along the lines, Starts had tried to put you in bad light as well

IIRC

leafsword... I don't remember him or who he went up against, you might have been one of them I'm not sure

This raised my eyebrows so much that it was good enough for an FoS already. Each and every line besides the Dino one is completely bullcrap. And you claimed you were going through the thread, and at the end you stop by saying: "If I remember correctly". Grasping at straws I would call all of this, something only scum would do.

[freezing-hell]

Now then, on the the next points on the list. The reasons you voted him, as I see it, and some further interaction between you and Orc that paint you like scum furthermore.

Try quoting it
Just try

I'm currently town read by everyone but Dino

Actually that is so ridiculously laughable it should be insta-lynched

I don't particularly care how I'm read as. But this blatant lie is ridiculous.

Rach: I believe I posted that Hp should go tomorrow regardless of what Marangal flips

VOTE: Orci
took a while, but I finally got what I want. I'm heading to bed, I'll explain this later.

Just because he knows how and by whom he is read, doesn't imply that he cares how is read. That's a false premise and thus worth nothing.

Reaction tests are a Gem. target of my reaction test of this game is Orci

Why exactly did you reaction test your town read?

Orci started off the game real good, didn't do much outside of his Meta which is a good thing to learn how to do as scum

Eh, why would you mention this?

what I found peculiar though was the fact that he was asking for reads without necessarily giving thought to the ones he threw out

He actually gave reasons a plenty, but ehm okay. And if he didn't why not probe him about it?

People will give out reads when they feel the time is right, you don't demand people to do things.

No. And yes you can demand it. This game is all about asking questions and putting people in uncomfortable spots. Town has nothing to hide because they can just be honest. Scum have to invent reasons, and that's what you want them to do. Forcing them to give out reads helps to determine who is scum.

what came to mind when he said he wanted reads was "he's likely scum who wants to know where he stands in the crowd" though he couldn't be obvious about it.

He is forcing people to play with open hand. That way there's more discussion and more opportunities to find scum. It's the exact reason why I asked you where your vote would go to (although you didn't reply on that).

I had to do something to fish that intent out and the quotes that I quoted in my post where I had placed my vote suggest that the Theory that I had on him was correct.

Like I said. Your premise was faulty and thus meaningless. Just because someone knows what players have said, doesn't mean he's scum. I know as well what people have said about me. How could you actually

not

know all that?

Regardless of what he said about the Hider claiming early, I can't really think of any townsman who would come up with that. to me, it sounds like scum who wants to know who they shouldn't attempt to target as targeting the Hider would result in a "no-kill" should he decide to kill molliecat.

Two things:
1) I thought you were just concerned about him remembering what people say about him? So not sure why you went back and dug this up?
2) We explained in detail on why it's good and what the point of it is.

[freezing-hell]

So lets just summarized what happened

M fabricated a case on me where I was being attacked my most of town. All of her points were proven to be fabrications or misrepresentations. M then says that because I disproved her point, my knowledge of how people voted me makes me scum.

This is the weakass case a person who REFUSED to vote eventually settles with

Why is she not dead yet

This actually sums it up quite well.

[freezing-hell]

I have a wee bit of time before work. I'm more vegetable than hunky man right now, but I wanted to get something up.

You're going to have to do better than this.

[freezing-hell]

He is also WK'd FH real hard...

What's WK'ed btw?

[freezing-hell]

I also wasn't making a case on HP at the time you voted me, I was questioning him because I find him scummy, still do actually but I like Orci better.

wait.wut?

I have questioned the motives of people that I found to be questionable, and tried to push a case on HP [leaves]

So, you first tried to push a case on him and then it reverts back to simply questioning?

[freezing-hell]

And, again, Ms. Marangal if you could this then it would very kind of you.

I would like you to really really make an effort and give a full read on everyone with reasoning and all

[freezing-hell]

My vote is on my primary scumspect, Obviously if we get closer to deadline I would switch to MM rather than let us do a NL situation on D1.

I don't think we'll be needing your vote to prevent a NL so there would be no need for you to vote based on that notion.

@FH will take another look at MMs ISO

Can hardly wait.

[freezing-hell]

@mod: Can we get a prod for HP, and mr. E? Nekoko's 72 hours will also expire in 10 hours.

[freezing-hell]

Next up, there's me/Larry David with a total of 4 posts. But I'm town and my activity level will rise greatly so we'll pass

Sup man? By your own logic we should be lynching you right now.

[freezing-hell]

@mod: actually, perhaps a replacement for mr. E is in order. It's been nigh on 6 days since he's posted anything.

[freezing-hell]

so you FOS'd me because I "suddenly" changed my stance on Orc?

I FoS'ed you because all of those points.

[freezing-hell]

You need to learn how to read then. Plus, are you know going to tell me what holds and what doesn't? And just because you claim it's a reaction test doesn't make it true. You're scum. I don't care how you will try to wiggle your way out of this. I just need you to tell your reads with full reasoning before you get lynched. You telling me that you're withholding your reads is a further indication that you're scum. If you're town you should share them. Am I understanding it correctly that you will not share your reads even if you are the today's lynch??

[freezing-hell]

Human Destroyer seems to be following Mr E's play so far.

In what way exactly?

[freezing-hell]

@ F_H I honestly don't remember now. I ISO'd them together and ATT they just seemed to flow together. It was a first impression from a quick read of the ISO. I probably should redo it, at a slower pace.

Mainly I was just getting my reads out there so I could see how good or bad I did after all is said and done. Recently I've seen the scum team correctly called Day One, and thought I'd give it a try, for better or worse. Like I said, they aren't set in stone. They could change drastically between now and then.

While you're at it, could you explain what was scummy about HD that made you think he's one of the three mafia?

[freezing-hell]

Wait a sec HD replaced Mr E? I thought he replaced in for someone else...

He replaces Fresh, nor mr. E indeed. I withhold that though, because I wanted to see where he was going with it.

[freezing-hell]

Mr E Roll and HD both have (had) Nekoko and Orcinus as scum reads, but to be fair HD is only just starting to catch up on the thread.

He actually has Orc as Town.

[freezing-hell]

Dino, M_M, and Orcinus in a three way ISO,

Why ISO these three specifically?

[freezing-hell]

Who? Mr E Roll?
He voted Orc twice, last time in P181. He queried both Orcinus and RachMarie about their reads on Nekoko in P87, and Orcinus again in P181.

Aware of the fact that Mr. E had in fact voted for Orc, you could've concluded by process of elimination that I could only mean HD. Instead your post expresses confusion because you can't figure out who I mean. Hmmm.. But to answer your question, I meant HD.

[freezing-hell]

I think it's gonna be Human Destroyer, Ms Marangal, and RachMarie.

Because you went there, it makes me curious. Who is the last suspect now, seeing as you retracted your read on HD. Does it go to Mr. E?


@rach: to who are you saying that? Just seems a bit out of the blue to me. How's that ISO going btw, that you promised to do about MM? Still not voting MM I see, even though she went way up your scumdar, according to your own words.

[freezing-hell]

Marangal>Rach>

HD/HP/Star

Completely agree with the bolded part. Leaving the third open for now.

[freezing-hell]

Oh hello, HP! Hope to see a post from you now. Could you give yer reads ?

FoS: HP

[freezing-hell]

Oh hello, HP! Hope to see a post from you now. Could you give yer reads ?

FoS: HP

[freezing-hell]

He was online for a while but then went offline again.

[freezing-hell]

reading MMs meta... It is making a lot of sense out of things that were puzzling me

That's a very vague post. What things are making sense?

[freezing-hell]

UNVOTE:
before someone will quick hammer

[freezing-hell]

@Startransmission, I am sorry for your loss. Good luck to you, sir and may your friend rest in peace.

[freezing-hell]

Goddamnit, I fucking hate this situation. Will have to rethink some things now. And I also am annoyed as hell that the moderator has more posts than some of the players.

[freezing-hell]

it wasn't that much of a battle, but now my orc/rm hypothesis very dependent on your flip.

Well, you got your flip (unless someone CCs). Explain how the orc/rm hypothesis was very dependent on MM's flip?

[freezing-hell]

VOTE: HP

ould everyone (maybe not piratecat) post what they think about those three?

Because of this post, your tagging along to other's reasoning and your lack of posts in general, I'd like you to state who you're going to vote for next.
I am clearing all suspects for the moment so everybody is back to null. Besides you, then. Sooooo...who will it be?

[freezing-hell]

Don't we usually gather everyone's opinions on the people

we're about to lynch?

The flip is the most informative tool we have and we can use it much more efficiently if everyone says something about the lynchee.

Those three were the top suspects

at the time and

many people hadn't even commented on them.

Can you give me an example of me tagging along to other's reasoning?
I want to vote MrE now as he's my current number one suspect; but he's not here so I think I'll do more reads before I vote.

We weren't about to lynch anyone just yet at that time. The top three suspects but many people hadn't commented on them yet.. Not sure how these three could be top suspects then. I don't mind you holding off on mr. E at all. You'll do some more reads you said before placing a vote, does that mean you think that RachMarie is no longer a scum? As for an example of you tagging along: The points you raised about Ms. Marangal and Mr. E were already raised by others. That's what I meant. Not necessarily scummy, but I don't like how you appeared at a time when MM's wagon was ramping up pressure. Kinda makes be wonder if your sudden appearance was accidental or on purpose. Plus, you wanting to lynch lurkers is also bad for town, and thus scummy. And you've been lurking yourself as well, so should that mean we're supposed to lynch you? Oh - and out of curiousity, do you still want to lynch the lurkers at this point?

[freezing-hell]

Lynch Mr e, vigi rach/hp.

[freezing-hell]

LOL, I'd probably have to vote myself then.

See these posts just don't stand out to me as scum. This is clueless town, not scum.

This. Anyone rather lynch Rach?

[freezing-hell]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Rach

[freezing-hell]

Holy F. Sorry Rach. Your "passiveness" just threw me off too much.

Then HP it is.

unvote

vote: HP

[freezing-hell]

Hp wants to lynch lurkers, then goes lurking himself.
Calls out a scum team, perhaps because he couldn't find anything else.
Agrees that i'm not scummy after that opinion was already shared by others.
Conveniently, after lurking for a while, jumps on MM's wagon.
Votes for mr. E, then unvotes, and re-votes.

From the top of my head.

[freezing-hell]

We get two kills. Personally, I think mr E is VI.
HP/Neko are scum. HP for what I just mentioneed, Neko for the wagon hopping.

[freezing-hell]

Why lynch Rach over Orc? They are both scum doesn’t matter to me which one gets lynched first.

Come to think of it, if Rach is scum, it is very unlikely that Mr E Roll is also scum.
Maybe if Rach is town, hp should be vigged?

This makes me think there's a Neko/Mr E team though.

[freezing-hell]

Actually, I don't mind lynching Neko, but MM who will you target then? Would you be fine with Mr. E?
Still think HP is scummy, more because convenient timings on his part, but of Neko could be said the same things and the post I quoted just screams scum that wants to get a double kill by suggesting HP instead of mr. E.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Neko

[freezing-hell]

Forgetfulness could also be a sign of being scum.

Pretty sure all of the scum are on the two wagons unless Nopoint is scum. Which could be true.

So you think all the scum are on RM's wagon. However I was not voting for RM. Therefore you should not think that I am scum.

So you didn't find RM suspicious?

[freezing-hell]

Ugh, can I just say this is an absolute clusterfuck?

Oh well, at least we have 3 conf!town for d1.

but we'll have 2 by d2, at least, then ugh...

only bleak bright spot is that scum now have to choose between killing PRs and letting hider rack up conf!towns.

who do you want to see lynched and vigi'd?

[freezing-hell]

HP, who do you want to lynch and vigi?

[freezing-hell]

These last few pages are hurting my brainzz. I'm fine with an HP lynch as well. Quite curious about those reasons, Dino. I can change my vote back to HP if need be. We still have some time, though. I'd like him to tell who he thinks should be lynched.

[freezing-hell]

Oh, and Dino is town IMO.

[freezing-hell]

Her last lists of reads (she never mentioned anything on hp/hd/st though)

So I think orc, dino, leaf, piratecat, jon, and fh are town.
I've come to like FH and think he's town now.
So now it's Miss Marangal < Rach Marie <

Mr E Roll/hp [leaves]/Human Destroyer/startransmission

Meh I'm expecting Human Destroyer and Marangal to switch his vote to me.
If Mr E Roll's get's lynched first, I'll still be vigged. I guess I'm done in this game

After I flip town, orc seems suspicious because he was all the time telling everyone that I'm town.
If Mr E Roll flips scum, there's a possibility that MathDino is his partner

Not sure if I'm liking this. If she flips town, suddenly her townreads are scum.

[freezing-hell]

Okay. I've made up my mind. Lynch HP/NEKO -> VIGI HP/NEKO
They are both scum, pretty sure.

[freezing-hell]

@leafsword: what's your opinion about Nekoko and what do you think about VIGI-shooting her?

[freezing-hell]

OH - btw, perhaps some of you know but will we be able to see who was killed by scum, and who was killed by the vigi?

[freezing-hell]

It should be obvious, considering Marangal's already laid out her intentions. If a scummy player and a obvtown player die, it's vig and scum, if two scummy players die, should be obvious, and if one person dies, there's no vig.

Derp. Right. Thanks. :p

[freezing-hell]

@Fh: His overly formal tone makes it pretty hard to read.

Hehe,the fruit of following an education where you can only write formally and academically.
Who do you want to see vigi'd?

[freezing-hell]

@Dino: Yeah, I really believe this to be true. That's what I would like to see happen.

I'll hammer HP

.

I'll wait with it until PC says we're good to go.

[freezing-hell]

@Orc: Who do you want to see VIGI'd? You're at the same time saying that mr. E is not scum, though you'd lynch, but you don't support it?

[freezing-hell]

if he flips town I'll Vig FH

Why the F would you vigi me if he flips town?! Don't be a goddamn idiot.

[freezing-hell]

So instead of just asking me about that interaction you simply going to lynch me for it??! WTF MARANGAL. I am so fucking pissed right now. YES i think HP will flip scum, but I cant be sure. AND I LIKE TO WIN so i'd rather have you shoot a fucking SCUM, A.K.A. NEKO/MR. E. I honestly can't believe you.

[freezing-hell]

That response was frankly enough to deserve a vig if HP's town.

Then you're a fucking dumb-ass as well.

[freezing-hell]

@Rach I don't think it matters. If you say it now, it's no information that we can use.

Oh- and I just realized that PirateCat can hammer herself, as she still has her vote on Neko. I hope she gets on and finish this day already so we can see if I was right or if MM will make a giant blunder based on a conversation and forgetting her actual suspects.

and rach said it right:
yeah go for Mr E or Neko that would be good.
yeah go for Mr E or Neko that would be good.
yeah go for Mr E or Neko that would be good.
yeah go for Mr E or Neko that would be good.
yeah go for Mr E or Neko that would be good.
yeah go for Mr E or Neko that would be good.
yeah go for Mr E or Neko that would be good.
yeah go for Mr E or Neko that would be good.
yeah go for Mr E or Neko that would be good.
yeah go for Mr E or Neko that would be good.

[freezing-hell]

Scum = in HP/Mr. E/Neko

If HP flips town, and I get shot then scum = in Mr.E/Neko/ aaanndd I don't know.
I am panicking, completely baffled and upset because I know she is dead serious about that. She did the same thing with Orc, so I know that she'd go through with it. We already outed our PRs so Mafia has it easy enough already. I'd rather hit scum with her vigi-bullet.

In case I do get mauled by our VI, then here are my last reads:

Orc: obv town
Dino: obv town
Leafsword: town
HD: Null
Jon: town
nopoint: null-leaning town

[freezing-hell]

The reaction is shit Orc, it reads scum who has had their strategy destroyed right in front of them

my strategy.......................... What kind of strategy would I have ? Honestly, you're not even thinking about these things do you.

did you just call me a VI?

Yes, I did. Because I think you're playing your role poorly. How is "interaction I didn't like but forgot which one (and don't care enough to win to apparently look it up)" a good fucking argument to vigi someone if the lynch flips town. But enough about that. Go vigi mr. E/Neko por favor. I've given my last reads. Now we just have to wait on HP's flip.

@PirateCat, I've played 3 games (4 with this one) and have always been Town. I don't normally freak out, just now because of her idiocy.

[freezing-hell]

I actually read over that. Otherwise I would've raised hell a while ago. Just look at the way i've been playing so far, don't you think I would've questioned her on that already???
Well, that's that then. PC can hammer and end this freakin' day. Pretty sure HP is scum. If he's not, then good luck to town.
The other scum are IMO mr.E/Neko

and again:

Orc: obv town
Dino: obv town
Leafsword: town
HD: Null
Jon: town
nopoint: null-leaning town

Hopefully see you all the next day. And otherwise I'll be waiting for y'all at the game discussion.

[freezing-hell]

@Ms. Marangal, I'm fine with a Mr. E lynch but I am confident that HP will flip scum.

[freezing-hell]

I'll let PC hammer. Better that way, maybe she still wants to ask some stuff.

[freezing-hell]

no, FH reacted badly to me stating that I would vig him if HP turned up town. he didn't react at all when I stated that I would vig him if you turned up town, or when Rache ended up scum. he also didn't initially react then I stated that he would be vigged when HP ended up scum. If FH really didn't have knowledge of who would turn up what like he implies he doesn't, then his reaction would have been the same then as it was now.

I realize you're keeping calm, or at least trying to but that doesn't mean you aren't freaking out behind the computer.

I already said earlier that PC should hammer. And you're making a bad mistake if you vigi me IF HP flips town. Not that I think he will though. I did really read over that post of you where you mentioned all that. I realize that I overreacted a bit though, but I was just baffled that you'd even consider me a target.

[freezing-hell]

Oh - and i'm not liking mathdino's last few posts. He should realize i'm town, yet he pushes for my vigi if HP flips town ( which he would know if he's scum ). Moving him back to null.

[freezing-hell]

Hey you. Wait for the flip before adjusting your read.

[freezing-hell]

Besides, if I was scum and knew that HP would flip town, I would've hammered to prevent MsM and PC to communicate further.

[freezing-hell]

This is entertaining.

[freezing-hell]

Lol. So Trans/Neko are confirmed town now as well

[freezing-hell]

Well played, ms. Marangal... You had quite the difficult team to play with considering both of them were lurking so much.

[freezing-hell]

Considering all the bullshit I put you guys through today, you are actually going to take my words for face value?

Mr. E is the last scum. ^_^

[freezing-hell]

You know he is targeting mr. E so if he wasn't mafia then you'd not be saying anything as we'd be killing a townie. But you choose to go with yur WIFOMing etc. so he is the last mafia. Hurray

[freezing-hell]

HP is scum, no worries.

[freezing-hell]

Wow, that's strange. Normally Dino's action wouldn't be stopped.

Anyway, so leafsword is townie then. Together with orc/neko/star, if we assume that ms. Marangal derped and gave it away ( and seeing moderator's reaction, i'd assume so).

Shouldn't we be lynching someone else then MM?? I mean, she can only shoot once right? So she can't kill at night anymore. Pretty sure that mr. E is the last scum.

[freezing-hell]

vote : ms marangal

[freezing-hell]

We should hear who rach inspected though, before she gets shot tonight

[freezing-hell]

What?..

Scum can shoot whenever and how many times they want..

Please vote MsM, thanks. Lets get this over with and go back into night.

As long as there's confirmed people running around.. We will still be in a good position.

Yeah I derped there. For some reason I thought that all scum had just 1 bullet. Not sure why I thought that now, though. Yeah, and I guess Rach her info is useless as marangal most likely did the night kill.

[freezing-hell]

Yes I'm in this game as Star's replacement, and yes I had 2 posts ..

So who is the last mafia?

[freezing-hell]

And suddenly everyone awakes from their deep slumber.

[freezing-hell]

I guess we already won now, didn't we? With 3 confirmed town and all. PC, glad you're still alive. You took a bit of a risk .
I'm fine with a NAU lynch as well.

VOTE: NAU

[freezing-hell]

Orc what you think? HD or NAU?

NAU

ok will do

yeah I gots a bad feelin about him...

Like I said before iffen I die, follow PC those cats have it goin on...

This is reason enough to lynch NAU.

[freezing-hell]

Could the last scum just out themselves so we can finish this game, town effectively won this game with a guaranteed 3p confirmed town.

^this

[freezing-hell]

I do want #1054 explained by F-H, thanks..

Which part? The vote? It's kinda obvious. Your crazy move + rach saying she'll inspect NAU = NAU scum. If she had said HD, then you'd be dead right now because of your crazy move. That's because you would've been a higher priority than Rach.

[freezing-hell]

No, we need to settle down and lynch MsM.
Everyone needs to stop trying to control what we will do. We are a free spirit.
Kay?
Or else you'll be helping the scum out more.

I really need to explain this? It speaks for itself. You took a risk with this. But since rach was inspecting NAU, he needed to be killed first. Otherwise he'd be lynched today for sure, because Rach would've gotten a scum result on him. That's why NAU had to shoot Rach first. If Rach would've inspected HD, then you and neko were now dead. Since your role is the one that will allow us to win.

[freezing-hell]

That's why I referred to it as your crazy move. In the off chance that scum hadnt seen it and you wanted to use it again.

[freezing-hell]

If it was anybody but NAU, then Neko and PC would be dead right now. Hence he is the last scum. IT doesn't actually matter anyway, as we already won the game.

[freezing-hell]

Mafia would definitely look through your posts closer. And it was kinda really obviously

[freezing-hell]

It doesn't matter who we lynch. We already won as we have 3 confirmed town.

We now have:

3 conf town
1 mafia
5 uncomfirmed towns

DAY 3: Mislynch
4 uc town
NIGHT 3: town kill
3 town left
1 mafia

Day 4: mislynch
2 uncomfirmed town left
1 mafia

Night 4: town kill
1 uncomfirmed town left
1 mafia

Day 5: mislynch
1 mafia left
3 confirmed town left

day 6: victory.

All scenarios end up this way. Hence why scum should just claim so we can end the game.

[freezing-hell]

this should seriously be town auto-win

like if we don't win this I'll cry

It is auto-win.

[freezing-hell]

If we don't win this while having three confirmed towns.. Then I'll cry.

ProTip: FH

isn't

scum.

Why not?

Because I know it's auto-win and I would claim to end the game.

[freezing-hell]

Haha, well atleast you tried man.
VOTE: HD

[freezing-hell]

Yeah set up is a bit tough against mafia. I totally agree.

[freezing-hell]

This explains it so well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np4-4OcZeEs

[freezing-hell]

Orc was definitely an annoying brat, but a good player nonetheless. MVP!!

[freezing-hell]

Marangal, you really drove me nuts. Sorry for calling you VI and everything Nice job getting to reveal Dino as well. You also had a difficult game, tbh - with your partners getting replaced etc.
Leafsword, you played quite a nice game as well, although because of your infrequent posting sometimes I felt a bit uncomfortable.
PC, job well done! most valuable hydra.
Mathdino, you played a good game as well. Felt you were town pretty much from the beginning, same as orci.
Neko, wasn't too sure on you throughout the game. Maybe it was also because you didn't post that often. But in hindsight you didn't do that much scummy, and I was just seeing things.
Rachmarie, sorry for not picking up on you being a PR. It was just so strange that you were 'hanging back' so much!
Jon, nice game as well. You also looked pro-town throughout your posts. Which you were more often here though!

Thanks to all the replacers as well. Not easy to catch up when there are already so many pages of content out there.
It was a strange game, especially with all the PRs revealed on day 1.
GG town!

[freezing-hell]

Despite this being one of my worst games ever, I really despised being called a VI...

and I drove you nuts on purpose, that's kinda what I do as scum. I just loved your reaction to thinking that you were likely to get shot, it was a move that I did to try and save HP from being lynched and you were an easy target to pick on

I tried keeping it civilised, hehe. I completely over reacted there, that's true.

[freezing-hell]

Also, big thanks for modding the game Acting Method. It's appreciated!