Open 494: Duck Duck Goose (Game over!)

[Nachomamma8]

Hello everyone! I am TheIrishPope! You may call me Irish, Pope, or IrishPope (or put any new nickname, that's fine.)
Let's get things started!

VOTE: awestfie

Always start with the ending!

You seem overexcited to the point of reading fake.

Why, you are very quick to defend yourself, RachMarie. Why do you defend mafia anyway? And why would you want to slow down? I change my vote.
VOTE: RachMarie

Why do you vote Rach instead of the scum you have already pegged?

RachMarie, I don't like jumping on anyone for not posting in the first day a topic opens mainly because I am often guilty of it. It certainly isn't a scumtell any more than it is a towntell. I don't see much lurking yet, and wouldn't accuse anyone of it until a few more pages.

However, TIP, saying that was not an OMGUS vote was not a good move, nor could it be true. You're telling me that you had enough reasonable suspicion to warrant that vote?

I'm liking Monty so far. He's making certain moves away from being opportunistic, and that definitely isn't his scumgame as I remember it.

a post I made to draw out scum. I

How was it meant to draw out scum?

Mike, Hiraki, Whiskers, since I have called them out. Mike: Post #100 is really unsettling, but maybe he misspoke or something. Hiraki: Really? This guy/girl is just not giving any care at all to a game he signed up for. He is probably waiting for a BW so he can hop on. Whiskers: If I am elongating something, then Whiskers is uberelongating. She has also blown up this issue and disregards mike for no reason.
I am not that confident meta-gaming applies at any time.
She is not voting for me, but the ones who are voting for me do so because of her. They have not ceased to suspect me. In any case, since Rach is not voting for me, I will change my vote.
VOTE: Hiraki
PEdit: I AM NOT A NEWB JESUS CHRIST

It's strange that you criticize Whiskers for ignoring Mike even though you didn't really find his post to be anything special either. Voting for a lurker at this point for lurking is pretty shitty. Not voting Rach only because she's not voting you also throws red flags up and I have no idea how you're still flailing about.

Why he reminds me of Gun is the whole you are voting me you must be scum, you are not voting me you must be town thing tween LS and I, plus the sheer stubborness about OMGUS which was very much like how Gun kept going on and on about we were still in RVS to the point where everyone wanted to just lynch him out of frustration.

I'll look at him later, but not now.

Yeah, mike is off his rocker. Rach is none of those things-- he's even got it backwards on some of them.

Which means that...

Geez, I don't know if I should post any more. Two posts in, and apparently I'm the scummiest guy ever. I know it's been a while since I've played mafia, so maybe the definition of "tunneling" has changed. It used to mean somebody who would relentlessly and blindly pursue a lynch, not somebody who justifies their opening vote.

I had skimmed Rach's posts, and I don't think anything I said was untrue. As I've said, RachMarie is a difficult player for me to get a read on.

When I made that post about Irish having inside knowledge, I was hoping to provoke a reaction from him. His response was satisfactory. I was more surprised at Survivor's defense of him.

I don't understand why Irish said I was 50% scum, then said I was 98.83% scum after his 'reread'. I've only made two posts so far. What new evidence did you find against me that you had previously overlooked?

Good observation.

God damnit, this is what happens when I focus on other games because I don't really have any thing new to add to the conversation.

I'm currently happy with my vote, and may be doing some ISO's to catch up on anything I may have not noticed.

I'm sure you'll find something new.

Sorry, you replaced into a scumslot Nacho.

Your reads need a little bit of work because if you're missing the newscum in the room, then you need a little improvement.

Vote: TheIrishPope

[Nachomamma8]

New is new to the site. I expect most people who stumble on a site specifically for playing mafia have played some form of mafia before.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho doesn't really say anything new and plops down a lazy ass vote.

Unfortunately I can't be the hero when the main wagon is on scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Conversely, I could say you are underexcited... So, yeah, you make no sense.

You could, but that's completely irrelevant. Try again.

3. A town mind would have seen it as a harmless comment. A scum mind would have seen it as a potential train to kill their brethren.

No.

[Nachomamma8]

I can't comment about Nacho, since the "oh u say things cuz he votes for you omgus bla bla" response will ensue.

Then you think that I'm pretty much confirmed town?

HOWEVER, Nacho, if you're not involved in the game, then you are most likely scum.

I replaced in this morning and am already more deeply involved in the game than a couple of players. Does that suddenly make me town?

I don't think a "No." will suffice. More in depth, please.

No, saying that "town will do this" and "scum will do this" is a prediction that you pulled out of your ass and has no basis in reality whatsoever.

[Nachomamma8]

You are null at the moment, of course.

Then why do you care about my OMGUS accusation nonsense?

I was referring to the "under-excitement" thing.

I'm saying that your tone sounds fake. If you say my tone sounds fake, that's fine. But can you back it up?

Really? Then what are towntells and scumtells?

Those things with a basis behind them. Why can't town get paranoid? Why do scum pounce immediately on the first things they see?

[Nachomamma8]

1. I was referring to Rach, but I see your point now. Everyone here relates omgus with scum, apparently. Anywho, no one will lynch me, so I am not worried about my figure to others.

But you're close to being lynched...?

2. It seemed to me that you did not back up your statement. I was just trying to get everyone happy (but failed miserably with examples like a crestfallen TAM and paranoid Whiskers). I'm just like that.

How was your response supposed to make everyone happy?

3. Of course Town can get paranoid. I will never give them leniency, however. That's why we vote; to gain more information.

Right. So saying "scum will do this" and "town will do this" is just stupid.

[Nachomamma8]

You have no idea how my brain works. You can dance this dance with me and we can get along fine, or we can do that other thing where you respond to my posts and everyone can be happy because we'll be taking home a scum carcass on the first day of our little hunting trip.

[Nachomamma8]

Sigmund Freud would disagree.
I won't bite. I won't be lynched. I am not scum. Deal with it.
Considering you are a religious conservative, I know your upcoming plays.
Don't hate the player, hate the game.
PEdit: Rach, we both know I am not scum. Correct?
How was my post scummy?

You're dancing around in circles playing reverse psychology "I will never be lynched!" while not giving a flying fuck about catching scum. That would be a pretty good summary, I think.

[Nachomamma8]

People have posted. Can you get anything from what's gone on so far?

[Nachomamma8]

I won't arm myself tonight. It's now or never, scum.

[Nachomamma8]

I won't arm myself tonight. It's now or never, scum.

I kept my promise!

Vote: MontyWhittaker

I think that your vote is stupid. I've played with Monty-scum before, and this beast is a different beast entirely. He's been actively defending himself (he lurked away the pressure last time), he suggested a no lynch (which, while not the best idea, certainly shows that he's thinking), and he has been questioning people who are clearly his scum suspects.

Does anyone here played with goodmorning more than once?

We've played together a couple times. I modded her once too!

When I joined the game, I made an opening policy vote against RachMarie and was run up the flagpole. DCLXVI made a policy LYNCH, which is much much worse.

But you would have went for the lynch if you could have, right?

for your shitty playstyle. Also, step up your activity. This is a pressure vote from me, but it's backed by a bunch of to-lynch votes from other people. So, yeah. Get fixed or get lynched.

Policy votes, policy votes, policy votes.

[Nachomamma8]

Actually, I think that there's a lot of weak bandwagons going on right now. DCL quickhammered, yes, but that's not really a horribly big deal. Mike's criticism of DCL's policy lynch and DCL's criticism of Mike's policy vote earlier pretty much just says that you've found soulmates in each other (take my compatibility test when it comes out), and it makes them pretty unlikely to be scum together because that kind of thing can't really be planned.

But the real dessert is Hiraki. He's had one real catch-up post that was saying pretty much nothing, accomplished nothing, white-knighted the hell out of the TiP wagon without making any attempt to start a counterwagon (notice the lack of a vote for all day 1). Today, he starts out by voting a townread and only votes his "top scumread" when a wagon is established. He's scum-coasting hard.

Vote: Hiraki

[Nachomamma8]

And I sure as hell like your Hiraki vote, but I can't vote him without huge OMGUS.

Who cares?

Mike is still pressing the "Rach is too dumb to town" bit, which she, err, isn't? Not to mention pursuing 6Cat over his quickhammer.

What do you think of DCL's equal and opposite reaction?

[Nachomamma8]

I think 6Cat's reaction isn't even a problem, because he's correct. Mike is holding an umbrella indoors saying, "it's raining, it's raining!" and 6Cat is going "hey, that's fucking weird."
^I'm referring to the business with Rach.

Mike's attacks on 6Cat re:hammer aren't bad-- it's easy to see a quickhammer, any quickhammer, as scummy. It's my opinion that this wasn't, though.

Why do you think that Mike as scum called for a policy lynch on Rach as opposed for a policy on Pope or Monty?

[Nachomamma8]

Just because I used some common sense and knew that TiP was town isn't my fault. I'll admit the no vote thing was dumb. I was voting Syryanna yesterday, who was one of my major scumreads, and that Whiskers vote, which was in pure sarcasm, was made especially clear after I made it an EWBOP.

The Whiskers vote wasn't clear sarcasm at all, considering you corrected yourself from a Syryanna vote and left it there.

Pff. The only time you mention Syryana Day 1 is during your catchup post-- like, two times. And you've got more ammo against Rach or I than Syry in that post.

And I guess that's why I didn't catch your vote for me being... sarcasm? Your vote for me was sarcasm? Whatever. Keeping the same tone as all the rest of this game: Fuck you.

And still you vote Mike.

[Nachomamma8]

A Hiraki wagon is ok...but only ok.

What did you like about his earlier play?

no reason given for Nacho/awestfie?

Hiraki, why was awestfie scum?

[Nachomamma8]

His catch up post had plenty of substance, which is more than I can say for yours.

Really?

But, hey, the main wagon was on scum, so you couldn't be a "hero" and actually put some effort into it, right?

It's hard to put a lot of effort into pushing people who are clearly coasting, as I'm sure you've noticed.

[Nachomamma8]

Your "catching up" was just a glorified push on TiP and hardly focused on anything else. The only thing Hiraki's lacked is a vote, and I'm not sure how I feel about not voting being a scumtell.

It was a glorified push, but it was still a push. The closest thing resembling to a push Hiraki made in his catchup wall was quoting something and saying "this is scum". On Syryana, there isn't anything except for "oh, he's lurking".

I'd describe TiP's behavior more as flailing.

But yes, pushing lurkerscum is hard. Help me out and vote Syr, Nacho.

Misunderstood what the hero jab was aimed at. But no, won't join Syr was I'm doing fine on my top suspect.

[Nachomamma8]

Yeah.

[Nachomamma8]

The only thing Hiraki's lacked is a vote, and I'm not sure how I feel about not voting being a scumtell.

I voted before. Not voting in a catch-up isn't bad if the end result is the same premise.

Again, you never voted Day 1.

[Nachomamma8]

Fairly certain there isn't a "rule" as to when you should decide to arm yourself, and if there is, there shouldn't be one; I honestly don't see the question as "paranoia," just looks like scum trying to blend in by asking a question that town would be asking themselves, and not publicly. Why would town be so worried about arming themselves this early? There's no "paranoia" to be have here, at this point.

This is pretty bad.

Because...

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho when syr decides to pop out of his turtle shell and posts a steaming pile of crap you should consider bumping him up to your #1 and...voting him.

if Hiraki posts something good, sure.

[Nachomamma8]

However, I'd like to say that from what I did ISO, Whiskers and DCL I was getting town reads on.

Do you have anything more than this?

This isn't an extremely active game, so it makes me wonder why he chose this one to replace out of over his others...

That's probably the reason.

Hiraki

[Nachomamma8]

I was gonna summon the Winged Dragon when I thought you were scummy enough...

[Nachomamma8]

At its short peak it had LS, Whiskers, TAM, and Hiraki on it but Whiskers was only on it very briefly…so at least 1 scum IMO amongst LS, Whiskers, TAM, and Hiraki.  Bank on it.

There's a very obvious scum in this group, I think.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't see Hirakiscum. Hiraki looked like town who was frustrated that people were just giving him shit..

The frustration seemed genuine, but I'm not sure he wouldn't respond that way if he was scum in the same position.

Fitz, who are your non Monty suspicions right now?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm going to give Feng a little time to catchup before breaking apart his posts. Why are you putting TiP in your points system, though?

[Nachomamma8]

I read over Hikari's posts...

Yeah I can agree with the Hikari wagon as far as I'm concerned.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Hikari

Do you have anything else?

#9 by TIP: Why did he bring up LaL for no reason? 1 scum point, even though I know he's Town

Things like that. I can't really see why you would post something like this when it's completely useless unless you're trying to pad those walls you're making.

Is this the way RachMarie always talks, because I'm finding it hard to figure out whether it's artificial or how she normally talks.

This is the way she usually talks, yeah.

#26 by Monty: Another butter zone vote, with over explanation. Again, is this the way he always talks? 2 scum points regardless.

Why did you give Monty scumpoints regardless while only asking the question about Rach?

You ruined a good post with "I think I'll have a better chance of winning if she dies". That earns you 3 scum points, - the 2 Town Points you would have received for the rest of your post. 1 scum point.

Why is this worthy of three scum points?

#169 by Hiraki: Getting annoyed with this lack of contribution. 2 scum points.

He's your predecessor.

Can't see you recovering with that many scum points against you.

I can't help but notice your most recent exchange with DCL and end up being a little suspicious that your vote suddenly ends up on him afterwards.

he's on the easy Hiraki/Feng's wagon.

Do you think they are town? Because personally, I think you were just wowed by a bunch of bullshit.

[Nachomamma8]

@ Nacho what about his response to me about only being told he still had a shot? Dude is fairly new to the game do you really think he faked that? It seemed off the cuff and genuine to me...

If he understands the setup at all, it doesn't really seem that hard to fake.

Doesn't change what I said. If DCLXVI is scum, then it's highly likely that they are indeed town.

And if DCLXVI is town...

And Feng's "bullshit" pbp is still more of a contribution to this game than Method, Monty, and Hiraki combined. So I'm willing to give him a pass for now.

That's very true, but I'm going to lynch scum whether they decide to contribute or not.

[Nachomamma8]

Fair enough, but Feng is really putting himself out there if he's scum. Would have been easier to coast.

But you don't expect all scum players to take the easy way, do you?

@ Nacho
You're just mad that you're currently at net +4 scumpoints.

[Nachomamma8]

Hmmm, I'm going to review Monty again I think... I still like my vote for right now though.

Does it really take long at all to go through an ISO of Monty?

[Nachomamma8]

What's your read on Rach?

[Nachomamma8]

So we've got 3 wagons at the moment. I think we need to compromise, even if it is on me to get a lynch down and so you guys get info.

Right now, I'm staying on DCL though, their latest posts have been null, so no change in my scum read.

As for the Monty lynch, I can sort of see where you're coming from, but I have a null read on him. If the deadline approaches though, I'll be willing to throw down a vote on him.

How's that catchup coming?

None of you three have given an opinion about DCLXVI or Monty. Please do.

Monty is town, DCL is scum.

@Havingfitz: Due to negative feedback, there's no point in me doing any points system stuff anymore. Also, I have read it, and DCL did nothing to change the scum read on them.

What are your reads, then?

[Nachomamma8]

Monty is town, DCL is scum.

Care to elaborate on these?

Monty is dealing with a number of players who are better than him but are attacking him for reasons that aren't really that good. Expecting him to defend his townreads when he can't even defend himself is one of those unrealistic expectations that lead to mislynch after mislynch after mislynch.

You aren't really a strong scumread at this point but your play today is sheepy and dismissive. Your hammer on TiP seemed sort of townish because of the way you stood behind it, but I think you knew that no one was going to give you too much shit for hammering him after he fakeclaimed cop, so you jumped on the opportunity to hammer. Then there's your vote on Monty for voting you when Fegelein voted you as well, which is stupid. Just because you don't agree with someone's method doesn't mean that their scumreads are all necessarily wrong... getting one right based on random chance happens.

[Nachomamma8]

What is the strong point of the case on Monty?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm suspicious of Monty for two reasons:

I was hoping you would let DCL answer :/

[Nachomamma8]

PC crashed... Can phone post but it's a pain... Hopefully I'll get it fixed soon.

@feg... so all my recent posts have been null to you?

So your points for the Monty case are the same as LS's?

for Monty is (surprise surprise) opportunistic. He's just repeating arguments that were made earlier, only louder.

Do you think Monty and DCL are scum together?

[Nachomamma8]

There's two days left; I wouldn't be too worried.

[Nachomamma8]

Same with Monty do you have any on site scum games?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=22799
Here you go.

[Nachomamma8]

Monty case?

[Nachomamma8]

I refuse to lynch DCL, ever. I think his TAM push is town as fuck.

I read through that game Nacho and I am wondering if you are giving Monty too much cred? That was like 9 months ago wouldnt his play have improved since then? Or am I missing something that you saw....

\
It would have improved by then, definitely. But the major problems his scum game had (folding under pressure like an origami crane, using typical AtF tactics to ensure he isn't lynched, not having any scumreads at all and being self-conscious about it because he doesn't know who to push) are completely gone.

because I am concerned with the possibility of a quickhammer as well, RachMarie. This has formed surprisingly fast, and I think Whiskers will get that an answer of some sort needs to be provided. For now, consider a vague Big Right Toe of Suspicion pointed vaguely in Whisker's direction.

Considering he quickhammered in his last scum game, the fact that he's being extra cautious about quickhammers and still showing suspicion is being more pro-town than he was in the entirety of the last game.

RachMarie, I don't like jumping on anyone for not posting in the first day a topic opens mainly because I am often guilty of it. It certainly isn't a scumtell any more than it is a towntell. I don't see much lurking yet, and wouldn't accuse anyone of it until a few more pages.

Genuine as fuck; being conscious of tendencies you have that are regarded as scummy then not attacking other people for doing those things is town town town; it's literally why hypocrisy is a scumtell because scum forget to do this all the damn time.

I have a scum game? Cool.

I give him a townread based on being different from his game as scum, and initial reaction is "I haven't really played scum that much? Whatever." is NOT how scum handle townreads on them. Scum love townreads on them, and usually either buddy the people who do it or act awkward around them because they don't want the reads to go away.

Nachomamma's not arming himself, or statement of the same, is legitimately not that significant. I have never played a game with this type of Townie role, so I am unsure of when we are supposed to arm ourselves in the best interest of town strategy.

I'm playing my own little game in order to psych out the scum, Monty sees it, literally doesn't care.
As scum, I think he would be one of the people who would just ignore it and suggest shooting me during the night.

VOTE: No Lynch

Supposing that at least fifty percent of us used our arming powers tonight, we have a high chance of killing scum. I am proposing that we wait and not risk killing town.

He's been asking about optimal town strategy of when to arm? Now he's thinking about town strategy, trying his best to make a good one. He continued pushing this when other people said no, bad idea, and for some reason, I don't think scum with Daytalk would leave him out to dry this badly.

Ooh, but your system is nice, feg. Love the arbitrary placing of "points" based on how much you agree with the actions taken in the posts in question.

Nice and aggressive, not at all opportunistic; the time for opportunism was when Hiraki was doing whatever the hell he was doing before. It's also genuine enough where I seriously doubt that it's bussing.

I am not sure what you want me to say to this, and I'm not sure that I care at this point. I have apologized for my misguided focus on a No-Lynch, but that is in the past. If you want to move on, let me know, and if you feel the need to lynch me, then just do it before the deadline...This day should not be in vain, regardless.

And this is just a nail in the coffin. I doubt Monty could fake something this genuine. I'm fairly sure if I masqueraded as a new player, I couldn't fake something this genuine.

[Nachomamma8]

Did you forget that you 'suspected' DCLXVI, or are you so gullible that DCLXVI's go-nowhere wagon on Method completely changed your opinion of him?

I think that DCL's and fitz's respective pushes put them up in my town books quite a bit, considering the people they chose are probably my second and third suspects. DCL's in particular was town as shit because my picture of DCL-scum this game is passive and opportunistic scum who just can't get into the game. The recent "fuck it, going after Method" is pretty fucking town considering there are three stalling wagons at deadline, meaning there are townies and easy targets anywhere he wants to take them. Then there was the "this is more important nacho, hold on" which is the not giving a fuck side of DCL-town that I look for when I play with him; he acquiesces a lot more as scum, so from the way he's handling this and the way he handled the quickhammer, I feel fine in calling him town. It also makes me feel more confident about Fegelein, who you are still giving a pass for the same reason you're giving Hiraki a pass: is one post of analysis really enough to completely wreck your scumdar and make someone untouchable?

[Nachomamma8]

And speaking of stalling wagons, let's address them for a minute:
Monty wagon's stupid, DCL wagon's stupid.
Fegelein's slot consists of two people who came into the game, made a sort of townish-sounding wallpost, then completely disappeared. What sort of strong analysis did either of them post? The strong Syryana scum read from Hiraki, the DCL scum read from Fegelein? Both were easy reads, never pushed all that much. Fegelein's posting after he gave up on the points system was "you're still scum but you're not getting scummier", which moving the goalposts, advancing on his scum read, showing he's paying attention to the game? No. It's active lurking at its finest. Let's look at the two other wagons of the day, Monty and DCL:

DCL lurked for a little while, but once he got his PC back he went and tried to build a wagon of his own, reiterated his case on Monty, is actually scumhunting, pushing for something. And Monty is right there with him; he's defending himself and giving an effort. At this point, it wouldn't surprise me at all if both flipped town. Meanwhile, we have Fegelein who hasn't done anything except post other places?

[Nachomamma8]

Unless of course I could get some people to join me on a TAM wagon real quick.

TAM is where I'll join you, but Fegelein is my preference.

[Nachomamma8]

I also have a problem with "monty asking when town should arm is soooo town" when, when I asked about the same thing, it wasn't.

Didn't care about that. I only cared about him dismissing my little WIFOM game.

[Nachomamma8]

Speaking of which! I'm thinking of a number: either one or two. I'm going to roll a die. If the die is the number, I arm. If it isn't, I don't.

Original Roll String: 1d2

1 2-Sided Dice: (2) = 2

[Nachomamma8]

Why did you care if he was the best lynch or not?

[Nachomamma8]

18 hours.

[Nachomamma8]

Also your defence on Monty was quite the passionate one. It comes across as if you know he's Town for certain, or you are both scum buddies. If both instances, you're scum.

...or I have a read on him. That's possible too.

Now the bigger questions remains: Should I switch to Nacho? He's sort of locked himself down to defending a select few, which makes me think he's likely scum, either defending buddies or buddying.

Why are you asking a person who was your strongest scumread actually 10 minutes ago whether you should switch or not?

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho is painfully obviously scum, with his "I'm arming tonight" which is worse than what Whiskers did D1,

Why didn't you like it?

his poor little push on me simply for a minor fault with my scumhunting system,

Nope, that's not why I'm pushing you. You have a predecessor whose play I hated (explained this), I explained my problems with the analysis you brought up, and it's not just because of a "minor fault" with your scumhunting system.

If people want me to stop for the sake of the Town, I will stop. I was spending way too much time on them, and I have very important exams I'm doing at the moment. Also, you call me out for active lurking, yet you're just hanging back in the shadows, being overly cautious?

People didn't ask you to stop scumhunting altogether, but that's what you did. And yes, I called you out for active lurking because you were avoiding this topic like the plague earlier. You saying that I'm "hanging back in the shadows" is laughable.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: TAM

[Nachomamma8]

I actually developed a scum read on Monty and my scum read on DCL decreased. Also, how was I avoiding this topic like the plague earlier? I've been in school for 8 hours, and I've got other priorities too. Busy life outside of MS.

I can see where you're posting.
I'd rather not say anymore than that.
But still the question is where the hell were you this whole time?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm going to check if I have time left, but Fegelein finally showing up and deciding to attack me of all people reads sort of town.

[Nachomamma8]

And by sort of town, I mean REALLY town. He knows he won't get me lynched. If he would flip scum, he knows that his attack on me won't serve him anything. So why would he do it?

[Nachomamma8]

feg and you makes 4
fitz is 6

[Nachomamma8]

LS was around a couple hours ago, so if he checks back in in 17 hours we could make it

[Nachomamma8]

I'm gonna eat lunch, but I'll vote from my phone if I have to.

[Nachomamma8]

I agree that it is unlikely. However, the possibility of it will put more pressure on scum during mylo.

PGO shots are useless after a mislynch in lylo and if we no-lynch today they will also be useless because scum have the option to not kill.

Therefor, the only way to make the remaining pgo shots have value is to lynch today and if there is a mislynch everyone ought to use their pgo ability. If scum don't kill we get another day and if they hit an active pgo we get another day.

Note that the former mod of this set up agrees with DCL and basically no one else.

^^^^^^^^
this, this, this

[Nachomamma8]

Will do ISOs tomorrow since it's crunch time here.
I don't think it should be too hard to fish out the scumteam since I have good reads from yesterday.

[Nachomamma8]

Busy until tomorrow

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, I'm really not convinced with your sudden start on the TAM wagon. What about TAM did you find so scummy that you felt like switching ~18 hours pre-deadline?

Didn't find TAM that scummy, but he was an unreadable pool of nothing. I switched mainly because I saw town-Feg; he had literally 18 hours before deadline and he starts this stubborn crusade against me that I could not see coming from a scum mindset. His main motive as scum would be surviving, meaning that he would probably end up avoiding me, not really giving good positions on me OR calling me town and trying to convince me he was town. Instead he pulls out the "yeah I don't give a shit about dying you're scum and i'll get you lynched eventually", which completely goes against my view of scumFeg. He's aggressive as hell when town but hasn't played scum before so I'd figure he'd be coasty scum. Same thing with Hiraki. I wanted to double check that he wasn't getting a little bit of bravery because he was absolutely fucked, but i wanted to see if his response was honest. It was.

But DCX is also clearly town, with enough townreads on him to make him a threat. Why aren't they dead? Their town flips would incriminate MBF.

Or because scum didn't want to shoot them?

The Irish wagon was stupid because in the end he was killed because he made a joke. The TAM lynch was just terrible. It gave us no real information as opposed to a Monty, Feng, or DCL flip, but it was marginally more preferable to a lynch forfeit, which is as far as my 'support' of it goes. That, and lurkers deserve death.

It would have been a great lynch if my townreads were good.

Nacho buses Feng to get town cred -> Rach points out that Nacho buses his partners -> Nacho leads TAM quicklynch to deprive town of useful information and because it'd be bad if Rach realized that Nacho was playing to his scum meta -> Rach dies.

So I was so unbelievably afraid of Rach calling me out for bussing that I changed my meta AND killed her? I also lynch scum as town, and it's a lot easier to defend against (you bus as scum --> you lynched scum --> you're scum) than "explain a last second push on a lurker AND your crazy flipflop on this townie".

Nacho is either still here because he is scum or because he's completely off the mark.

Or because scum have no idea when I'll arm myself. Also possible. But probably because I've mislynched twice and scum are idiots or confident I'll lead them down the path to victory.

Nacho...shortly before Post 689 yesterday, you say or infer that DCL is scum (Posts 623, 626 & 645) but then he suddenly becomes "town as fuck" for his push on TAM. Who a fail to find any mention of you suspecting prior to this point. So why would someone you suspect suddenly be town for pushing a case on someone you had previously expressed no suspicions towards (that I can see at least).
Who a fail to find any mention of you suspecting prior to this point. So why would someone you suspect suddenly be town for pushing a case on someone you had previously expressed no suspicions towards (that I can see at least).

I think that DCL's and fitz's respective pushes put them up in my town books quite a bit, considering the people they chose are probably my second and third suspects. DCL's in particular was town as shit because my picture of DCL-scum this game is passive and opportunistic scum who just can't get into the game. The recent "fuck it, going after Method" is pretty fucking town considering there are three stalling wagons at deadline, meaning there are townies and easy targets anywhere he wants to take them. Then there was the "this is more important nacho, hold on" which is the not giving a fuck side of DCL-town that I look for when I play with him; he acquiesces a lot more as scum, so from the way he's handling this and the way he handled the quickhammer, I feel fine in calling him town. It also makes me feel more confident about Fegelein, who you are still giving a pass for the same reason you're giving Hiraki a pass: is one post of analysis really enough to completely wreck your scumdar and make someone untouchable?

That significantly reduces the lynchpool, from eight plays, to five. I'm no match whiz, but that's less than half chance hitting scum randomly, to more than half chance of hitting scum randomly.

Why aren't you attacking yourself?

It's a fine argument which I have used with accuracy more than once and yes...scum are on bad lynches. And no, it's not "newb-town logic."

It's a good reason to look somewhere, and good for me because I have more scum games than inaccurate towngames I guess. But you don't know whether I'm scum or just inaccurate, so it doesn't make any sense for you to start with me and not my partners.

Just telling us who you

think

is most dangerous to scum... lol. How do you know? Unless you know who the scum are, or are, in fact, scum, how could you know who is threatening them or threatening

to

them? I just, you know, read it as a scumslip from you.

This is just bad.

This is a pathetic attempt at trying to fabricate a scumslip. You are really playing like crap this game Whiskers. How do I know? I do not "know"...I'm making an assumption based on my opinion. It's my vote to put on someone and I put it on someone based on my opinion. See how it all works? And I never say I "know"....even in your crap post above you say I "think"....which is not the same as "know."

I figured you would be all over Whiskers for this post.

[Nachomamma8]

Before I do a little rereading, I don't like Whiskers and I don't like fitz, mostly for play today. Monty is a weak townread now after Feg and DCL became town yesterday. I don't like how Fitz is completely ignoring Whiskers today when it's suddenly MyLo and breaking out the "nacho is still alive - scummy" argument is... strange. As in, he was willing to lead a vanity wagon on Whiskers earlier, and now he says this?

I don't necessarily believe all 3 scum were on the TAM lynch but fmpov..of the two off it...it's a toss up between Whiskers and mbf.

And him missing my response to his question was suspicious as fuck and shows he's not reading my posts; he was just looking for strange play to attack and then he found it.

[Nachomamma8]

The heck is bad about my post there? he's saying, "Scum think this is dangerous!" Either he's town and he's bullshitting us-- very anti-town, yes?-- or he's scum and he's [right / trying to mislead us].

I can say that scum think that I am dangerous. I can say that scum think CES is dangerous. I can say that scum find Vi dangerous. These are not scumslips, and they are not falsehoods.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't like how he came into this game and just started attacking TiP right away. That's not how I expect townNacho to replace into a game, having seen him do it more than once. See Open 459 and Mind Reader mafia, two games where he replaced in as town. In both, Nacho asks players questions and makes other general observations. So to see him just replace into this game and start mindlessly pushing the easy wagon alarms me.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
Here are two counterexamples to me replacing in as town and being aggressive as fuck.

Then there's the hop onto the TAM wagon, which I still don't get. Nacho spent a majority of his time after TiP died pushing the Feg slot, so I find it hard to believe that he suddenly saw Feg town and swapped up the wagons.

I'm a townread oriented player, not a scumread oriented player. Sometimes I go aggro to get a bunch of information, then step back and analyze the new information. And you find it hard for me to see Feg town and switch up the wagons, but your thoughts on my response to the Feng/Rach team would be great.

But, like I said to MBF, you pushed on the Hiraki/Feg wagon almost immediately after you stopped pushing the TiP wagon. I can't imagine that all it took was one last push from Feg to make you switch your mind.

One ACTUAL push from Feg to make me change my mind, yeah. I like conversational mafia, I like getting in people's faces, I like pressuring them. I got there, there was literally 17 hours until deadline and ZERO scum motivation for what Fegelein was doing, so I decided to switch wagons.

[Nachomamma8]

And wasn't TAM your second highest suspect, according to #691? Why is he now not that scummy?

You keep trying to make me explain this to you under the basis of "TAM was scummy as fuck", but that's not how the process worked. TAM didn't make himself scum, Feg made himself town. And that was good enough for a chance in lynch for me.

[Nachomamma8]

a) Yes, you hopped onto a wagon/started suspecting someone, but you were actually right on both counts.

Yes. This doesn't matter a whole lot unless you're pulling the Burden of Proficiency card.

b) In the second link, you weren't just hopping on the popular wagon, and the first link didn't even have wagons so I can't really gauge whether or not ff was a popular target.

OK, but I didn't just hop on the popular wagon and hop along; I chose a lynch that I liked and I went along with it. Next day, I not only led a wagon of my own, but I disabled that wagon last minute and found myself another. You're saying I'm scum for being an opportunist and for being wrong, but I've done a lot to bring activity and content to this game.

c) Especially in the second link, you have this confidence in those two games that you just seem to lack.

Those were also games where I lynched more scum. I'm usually more happy in games where I tell scum to die and they die and not game where they flip around. Sometimes I click with the game, sometimes I don't. I've been clicking a lot more often now, yes. That doesn't mean I don't have games I haven't clicked in; I like fast paced games where I confront my scumreads and they interact with me. Here, I've had that happen as of the end of yesterday and today.

Alright, nice work side-stepping the question. Was TAM your second highest scumspect or not...? And if that's a yes, why did you say that you didn't find him that scummy?

Yes. I explained why I said I didn't find him that scummy already.

[Nachomamma8]

I still don't really get what you're saying about TAM. You just didn't find your second highest scumspect that scummy then?

What did that make Whisk, your third highest, then?

The original question was "What made TAM so scummy as to make the last minute switch onto him?", but it wasn't him being that scummy, it was Feg being that townie. At that point, I figured he was scum because he's a worse scum player than he is a town player, and we had two days of him absolutely not doing anything at all for the game and instead prod-dodging like a champ. Fegelein was hitting all of the townbells, and there was no way in hell I wanted to lynch him.

Whiskers at that point was a townread getting stale; most people had done something townier than him at that point. MBF was a strong townread, you were a good townread, fitz looked nice for his Whiskers push, Rach looked fine, Monty still looked fine.

If you'll remember, one of your attackers-- Fitz, I think--

IS

playing that card. And when I brought up, you agreed. You are plenty proficient and the burden is placed on you.

1. I'm voting Fitz and am trying to kill him.
2. I have no problems with Burden of Proficiency arguments, but that's not what LS was originally arguing.

[Nachomamma8]

..said the person voting Nacho

because

he thinks Feng is scum.

You didn't answer my question and show me where I base my vote on Nacho on Feng being scum.

Less ambivalent than others who explicitly didn't care who was lynched between the two, but you begrudgingly voted Feng, and didn't comment on TAM until he was lynched.

You talk about people being ambivalent between Feng and TAM. HTF was I being ambivalent at all? Do you even know what the word means? And there is nothing "begrudging" about moving from one suspect to another when the wagon you're pushing is getting zero support. Nice negative painting.

Respond to my latest post, please.

[Nachomamma8]

Not lately, that's for sure.

[Nachomamma8]

V/LA until Monday

i'll have time for one good post until then, most likely

[Nachomamma8]

You mean post 916?

All I would say is it sounds like a shit reason to jump on the TAM wagon simply because he was an alternative choice to Fege...who you say is town...and yet who at the time you moved your vote to TAM you were voting. So apparently Fege wasn't THAT town in your eyes.

Also...wrt your response to Whiskers...you aren't voting anyone.

I was hoping you would respond to the little bit I posted towards you beforehand. I want to talk, chat, see what's going on with you. I'm a strong suspect of yours, but you aren't paying attention to me at all. Why? Our suspects are very similar at the moment so if you're town it'd be a pretty shitty move to lynch you today, assuming we're correct about the other two BUT you're the threat of the scumteam that I'm worried about taking care of today. So, explain your suspicion on me a little more. I'll do the same for you.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho...what post did you want me to chat with you about? If not 916...do you mean 889 and 890? You don't say anything worth commenting on or if you do...it's probably already been brought up on your behalf by mbf who seems to be your staunchest defender today. I'm not ignoring you. I don't vote people I ignore.
  If not 916...do you mean 889 and 890?  You don't say anything worth commenting on or if you do...it's probably already been brought up on your behalf by mbf who seems to be your staunchest defender today.  I'm not ignoring you.  I don't vote people I ignore.

What is your case on me? You allude to having more than "still alive", but you've haven't yet brought that up.

[Nachomamma8]

7)... I’m voting him for being on both mislynches (he is 1 of 2 on both); still being here; and his unexplained and IMO irrational move to TAM.

Sorry, where were you where LS was grilling me on my reasons for the move to TAM?

[Nachomamma8]

7)... I’m voting him for being on both mislynches (he is 1 of 2 on both); still being here; and his unexplained and IMO irrational move to TAM.

Sorry, where were you where LS was grilling me on my reasons for the move to TAM?

[Nachomamma8]

I was here. I recall not caring for your response to him. What did you want me to say? It's still a point IMO against you.

Not caring for my response to him is fine, but I assumed you would have questions of your own about it because you sure as hell haven't explained why you didn't like it.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho...I did raise questions about your actions wrt TAM.  See Post 836...since apparently you didn't see it when I made it...as you failed to respond to it.  I didn't bring it up to you based on the fact you essentially responded to my suspicions in your reply to LS.  And as I've said...your response was not convincing IMO.  So yes...I sure as hell HAVE explained why I didn't like it. 

Vote: havingfitz

[Nachomamma8]

Fitz and me: Fitz pretty much opened up the day attacking me because of my involvement on the TAM wagon and the fact that I'm still alive. When LS engaged me about it, however, there was no followup, there was no talk, there wasn't shit; he just said that he was dissatisfied with my answers but has put no effort into explaining why my answers were unsatisfactory or WHY he think I would make the TAM push as scum. He's been on the defensive from MBF for a while and now suspects him because MBF is misrepping him, but his interactions with me have been pretty limited lately. He's also kind of tried to get a wagon on MBF going, but instead of getting something started himself, he announces that he's willing to switch over to MBF whenever as long as a wagon forms.

You didn't answer my question and show me where I base my vote on Nacho on Feng being scum.

1)...

As I remember it, your logic was that TAM's wagon shot up as an alternative to Feng's wagon, which made Feng scum.

2)...

Therefore, two~three scum are on the wagon.

3)...

There was also the argument that Nacho was scum because he's still alive even though he would be seen as a threat,

4)...

and the argument that he's scum because he's been on both mislynches

5)...

(and those two arguments contradict each other).

6)...

The only other argument is that his 180 on Feng seemed scummy.

7)...

Is that your main reason for suspecting him?
 
And yes,

I know what the word ambivalent means

.

8)...

It applies to others in that grouping more than you, but

9)...

I included you because you didn't express strong feelings about the lynch of Feng nor TAM.

10)...

You didn't give a read on TAM, and you had expressed some minimal suspicion of Feng. So yeah,

ambivalent

 
P-edit: I looked it up. Apparently I don't know what ambivalent means.

11)...

The word I was looking for is "indifferent"

1)...

I said the TAM quickwagon reflected poorly on Feng. 
 

2)...

I said 2-3 scum on TAM’s wagon initially but backed off that a bit to 1-2.  My money is on 2. 
 

3)...

I did say that.  I also said he could still be here because he’s completely off the mark.  And for the argument (made by more than one) that Nacho could simply still be here because scum was afraid to target someone who had activated their PGO ability…the same fear would apply towards anyone they would consider targeting so that’s a null point).
 

4)...

I did not say he was scum for being on both mislynches.  It is however an added suspicion towards Nacho.  FTR I think that one of Nacho or DCL is probably scum and of the two I suspect Nacho more.
 

5)...

HTF do points 3 & 4 contradict each other   They are each reasons I suspect Nacho and combined (and in no way contradicting each other) they have enough weight for me to vote him.
 

6)...

No….I said his reversal on TAM was suspect.  Since he moved from Feng to TAM you could extrapolate your comment but it’s nots what I said.  His move onto TAM is what I find suspect.
 

7)...

I’m voting him for being on both mislynches (he is 1 of 2 on both); still being here; and his unexplained and IMO irrational move to TAM.

A lot of fitz's defense here is really nitpicky, especially in the first 7 points. 1) "TAM's wagon was an alternative to Feg's wagon, thus Feg was scum" is pretty much equal to "TAM wagon reflects poorly on Feg". 3's point of "Nacho is still alive when he should've been killed long ago" was his exact argument, yeah. He did say I had the possibility of being town, but that was the argument. 4's point, same thing. MBF points out that fitz is arguing that I'm scum because I've been on both mislynches, fitz goes "well that's not the only reason I have". 6's point where MBF says he suspects me for my reversal on Feng and fitz goes "No, for his reversal on TAM"... If he has no problems with the reversal on Feng and he's aware of my reads at that point, then yeah he should understand why I ended up pushing on TAM.

As for TAM being lynched behind my back...he fcuking was. Anything said before my last post prior to his quicklynch kicking off doesn't matter. I don't know if I did or didn't notice other people mentioning him as a suspect but it wouldn't have brought me to his rescue or anything.

This is also bullshit. Fitz is claiming that he didn't comment on TAM who was apparently a leaning town read at that point because TAM was "lynched behind his back", although DCL had brought up a case on him and Rach and I had already commented on how we thought he would be a pretty good wagon. Then when MBF brings up that people did say negative things about it, fitz says he just forgot.

You keep rehashing the same thing that is of no importance.

Funny that fitz of all people would say this.

You say you think it's highly likely one or both of DCL and Nacho are scum yet you vote me.  WTF?

Probably for the same reason you think that one of DCL and I are scum and you're willing to vote MBF.

And based on the one game we have in our past...you seem to be better at finding scum than you have shown in this game.  So your play in here definitely warrants suspicion.

So is this another burden of proficiency argument?

[Nachomamma8]

- You left out the part about you being on both mislynches.

If I was still alive and NOT on both mislynches, that would make even less sense.

- You left out the part where you ignored my suspicions of you. Perhaps there would have been more exchange between us if there had been an exchange between us.

I missed your questions, then immediately answered them in the LS-me exchange. Do you think I was scared to talk with you specifically?

- The bigger question for me is why town would push. the TAM wagon

Because TAM was useless at best, is lurkier as scum than he is as town because he has the tendency to find things he really likes as town which he centers his activity around, and Feg started looking town as fuck. Why would scum push the TAM wagon?

I said TAM's QL reflected poorly on Feng. i.e. it's a reason to be more suspicious towards Feng but it is not a slam dunk.

Which is essentially splitting hairs.

If anything...you saying you didn't find TAM particularly scummy strengthens my suspicion on that point. Which as I look you ISO over I see seems to be a disconnect with the post where you have a town read on DCL in part because he is pushing on your second suspect.

TAM seemed like a solid flashwagon because he was a scummy lurker. It wasn't a slam dunk, yeah, but it had support and it wasn't the town TAM that I was used to. I had a townread on DCL for his push on TAM not because TAM was my second suspect, but because he was moving along, doing things his own way and pushing a suspect that looked scummy enough to me. I especially liked that he continued pushing TAM even while I was pushing him.

the fact you went off an L-2 wagon on someone you had been focused on fairly strongly to an L-5 wagon of someone not that scummy does not compute.

Because the person at L-2 was reading strong town to me. So yes, I was focused fairly strongly on them because I couldn't tie either of them down; when they produced content, I didn't like it. And when I confronted them on it, it was a bunch of dodge dodge dodge. Then, when Fegelein finally started interacting with me, he pushed an aggressive attack on me while he was ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN TO DIE. When scum don't know if I've activated my PGO yet and I'm obviously going to be aggressive as fuck about it and I'm sending scum to the grave, they don't want to waste time attacking me. They want to attack someone that has a chance of dying. But Fegelein's stubbornness showed me that he was town, so I backed off.

1)..I never said I didn't comment on TAM because he was lynched behind my back. I said I didn't comment on him because he wasn't someone I was suspicious of.

People were expressing suspicion about him, talking about whether they would be down with wagonning TAM. DCL was talking about the potential for a TAM quickwagon, I said "well sure I'd go on TAM, but Feg is what I want most". Then I find Feg town and we have a TAM quickwagon and you're really that surprised?

Is saying you should be dead a burden of proficiency argument?

Um, yes.

I *might* be willing to lynch Nachomamma8 today. (I play super cautiously.) I'm still looking at everyone else.

I'm looking forward to when you actually produce something good!

Question for Nacho...how many scum do you believe were on TAM's lynch?

It happened in 6 hours, so it depends on which scum were online.

[Nachomamma8]

havingfitz (previously Syryana) arms himself

CALLED IT

[Nachomamma8]

So I actually watched this game very closely despite having been killed before I could post, and I'm just curious:

HOW DID NACHO NOT GET LYNCHED?

why would anyone lynch me...?

[Nachomamma8]

LS was right? Nacho NKed me cause I would have sussed him out eventually?

We shot people because we thought they wouldn't use their shots on the night we shot them.