Open 494: Duck Duck Goose (Game over!)

[Lastsurvivor]

VOTE: Rachmarie

I'll know if you're scum...eventually!

(Also I know you've been scum on me at least twice as well haha)

Alright, so I've modded this setup before (here), and scum won a perfect victory. I don't want to distract us with set up talk, but the biggest issue I noticed was people claiming if they've used their shot or not. It's probably the worse thing you can do in this setup (other than not shoot in a night where it's shoot-or-lose, which also happened in my game...).

----

I'll say that Whisk seems a bit too excited by game start. But that "I'm always a little paranoid" thing looked like a joke.

[Lastsurvivor]

(I was scum in author mafia )

I also sucked in author mafia, but I digress...

Anyway, I know I'm town...it's you (by you I mean Rach) (and everyone else!) I'm worried about.

MONTY - Why exactly do you have a problem with Whisk mentioning he has a gun?

[Lastsurvivor]

@Rach: Jal - 90s cartoon mafia?

Also Rach --- 3 votes on whisk, 7 to lynch. He's fine.

BUT I can confirm that Rach tries to halt fast moving wagons, and I can confirm that I get giddy whenever she references N1206.

[Lastsurvivor]

@Monty: You do realize that it's all PGOs vs scum

so a PGO claim is meaningless right?

[Lastsurvivor]

Hm, first you start a LaL discussion, and now you want to start a quick wagon argument.

Someone likes devolving the game into theory, huh?

[Lastsurvivor]

(And don't say you weren't trying to start an argument since your proposition about quickhammers has such an obvious counter)

[Lastsurvivor]

I never wanted to start LaL discussion. I just wanted people's opinions. And sure, the game is mostly theory, but we're having fun, and we haven't heard from everyone yet.

If you didn't want to start a LaL discussion, then why did you ask about it....

BS.

Syryana makes me wary of a TIP wagon, unfortunately.

[Lastsurvivor]

I only go into popemobiles that everyone has gone into for their own reasons.

[Lastsurvivor]

@Syr, Whisk:

Obviously the popemobile metaphor was worded poorly.

What I meant was that it makes me wary that Syr just said "Yeah what TAM said vote TIP." It takes away any accountability Syr could have.

TAM at least articulated which parts of TIP's play he didn't like, instead of just blanket saying "yup TAM's right lets vote TIP."

[Lastsurvivor]

TIP wagon doesn't make a ton of sense to me. ScumTIP would not have stuck to his guns and kept pushing his stupid logic when he realized that no one is buying it.

Like I said in my experience peeps who are not posting come in both stripes and furthermore they often either get active or they get replaced. And I have noticed that scum really do like to go for peeps they think are easy to get lynched...

Which is why he's still pushing you, and not the lurkers, right?

I'm suspicious of the people blatantly sheeping onto the wagon. AKA, Syr, notes.

And I want both of them to say what they think of some other players in the game instead of just focusing on the easy wagon.

[Lastsurvivor]

You either have confbias or you're scum.

This is your last chance to answer my question, Syr.

[Lastsurvivor]

I'm suspicious of the people blatantly sheeping onto the wagon. AKA, Syr, notes.

And I want both of them to say what they think of some other players in the game instead of just focusing on the easy wagon.

I'm glad you're reading carefully.

[Lastsurvivor]

He's referring to your bad logic, TIP. He's also misrepping me a lot.

Sweet, two scum caught. Popemobile is still fashionable, and this guy's statement that TIP still pushing bad logic makes him town is laughable. Guy doesn't even have a completed game on the site, and you know how scumpope thinks? You know what you're doing? I'll tell you what you're doing. Calling your scumbuddy's wagon bad and attempting to start counterwagons on perfectly innocent sheeple. It's k though, we can lynch you tomorrow <3

Obviously you don't know how scum think.

When town make a push on someone, it's because they genuinely believe what they're saying. Thus, a townie who's using bad logic is more likely to continue pushing it when everyone's telling him he's wrong because he believe he's right.

When scum makes a push on someone, they know what they're saying is wrong (unless they're bussing etcetc). So when everyone else is telling them they're using bad logic and voting them for it, they're going to back down.

I have no idea how scumpope thinks, and I never said I did. I do know that lots of scum (ESPECIALLY newbs) think the same way. This unorthodox thinking from TIP is more likely to come from newbtown than newbscum, imo.

Anyway, how was your lunch?

[Lastsurvivor]

Syryana's shameful jump to Irish-wagon has been noted. As for the wagon itself, I think it may have merit. Might be worth a Day 1 lynch, I'll consider it. For now, I'll help to build up the RachMarie counter wagon. Regardless of her alignment, I think I'll have a better chance of winning if she dies.

what

[Lastsurvivor]

VOTE: mikeburnfire

[Lastsurvivor]

Like

I honestly have no idea what that could mean from a town perspective.

[Lastsurvivor]

whisk how do you feel about mikeburnfire

[Lastsurvivor]

re: Mike-- he's made like, one post. what he said isn't horrible, I feel the same way about players like, say, tIP.

Huh.

I get this awful feeling you're ignoring the elephant in the room and trying to get us to lynch an innocent mouse.

Syryana's shameful jump to Irish-wagon has been noted. As for the wagon itself, I think it may have merit. Might be worth a Day 1 lynch, I'll consider it. For now, I'll help to build up the RachMarie counter wagon. Regardless of her alignment, I think I'll have a better chance of winning if she dies.

How can you read the part re: rach and not at the very least raise your eyebrows? You're acting like he didn't say it.

Syr's posts are making me feel better about him.

Don't think I've forgotten about you, notes. Give me the same spheal on players that Syr did.

[Lastsurvivor]

Alright, let's say you were not defending anyone and the purpose of your post was to pressure me. Do I look more Towny now? Nothing will change your mind. Stating you are scumhunting does not relief you of suspicion. Mike may have been talking about policy lynching, but I don't mind it much. I want more from him before I vote for him.

If mike was talking about policy lynching then that's a...strange one. I've never heard of a policy lynch justified as "because I want a better chance of winning" (what does that even mean seriously).

TIP, I really don't see what you're talking about with Rach. I think you've taken a minor point and stretched it out six pages...you've got nothing, and you really need to move on before I start doubting myself and start thinking you're just milking your stubbornness.

Give me a rundown on who else you think is scum.

PEDIT: Let me just say that I've probably played with Rach more than anyone else. I know that as town she can take things a bit...literally I guess. And while you may think that she's scum because she took your jokes about the scum talking in QT seriously and countered the point, it's not a scum tell for her.

ALSO you should note that Rach isn't the one pushing your lynch. She's not even voting you right now.

DOUBLE PEDIT: She asks because no one is following her right now if she's not voting you...

TRIPLE PEDIT: I'm never gonna get to post but yeah what Rach said

[Lastsurvivor]

re: Mike-- he's made like, one post. what he said isn't horrible, I feel the same way about players like, say, tIP.

Huh.

I get this awful feeling you're ignoring the elephant in the room and trying to get us to lynch an innocent mouse.

Syryana's shameful jump to Irish-wagon has been noted. As for the wagon itself, I think it may have merit. Might be worth a Day 1 lynch, I'll consider it. For now, I'll help to build up the RachMarie counter wagon. Regardless of her alignment, I think I'll have a better chance of winning if she dies.

How can you read the part re: rach and not at the very least raise your eyebrows? You're acting like he didn't say it.

Thiswasnotrhetorical.txt

[Lastsurvivor]

I'm... just not that stunned? It's weird that it's applied to Rach, I don't know what he's on about-- I considered looking a couple of times but I'm not ready to read RachMarie in ISO and pick apart her posts for things he might feel are policy-lynch-able offences. I'm not into policy lynches, but some people are. He's not pushing it, he just gave a reason for his vote, and voted. Doesn't look like he's going for any of the "usual suspects", either, looks like a scumread on Syryana and a VI-read on Rach.

What do you want me to say? I'm at my best when I have enough material to really rip into someone, and mike has made, at most, two posts.

I was more bothered by the fact that you didn't say anything.

When you consider the fact that basically everything in his catch up post excluding his wtfrach section has been said by others (I'm not the first to point that out), his look at the unusual suspects is not that impressive. I mentioned everything in his first paragraph, the quickhammer point had already been discussed to death, and I called out Syr. There's nothing original there.

[Lastsurvivor]

@Whisk:

OK. The only thing I didn't mention from the first paragraph was that the people decrying your early wagon are more likely scum. My b. That's his one original thought in that entire post. But the analysis you put into figuring that out was quite helpful and totally necessary.

The quick hammer thing has definitely been discussed...maybe not TO DEATH (I'm glad you're taking me literally), but he doesn't get any town points for bringing it up.

But I am not new to Mafia. I know what I'm doing. Again, don't get your panties in a bunch. I might be correct in saying RachMarie is scum for that, or that you are scum for throwing out useless posts, but I cannot be completely certain. OMGUS does only happen in RVS...
VI does mean village idiot. I am not this because I do see what I'm doing wrong.

Protip TIP: Stop giving a shit about whether or not people think you're new or not. Just ignore it. Drop the subject. I do not want to see one more post about whether or not you're new from you.

My statements against RachMarie are simple. If RachMarie is town, then I don't think she'll be very useful at finding scum. To the contrary, she'll probably easily manipulated by the scum throughout the game and end up voting innocent townsfolk. On top of that, I have a very difficult time getting a read on her, based on her posting style. If she's scum, then day 1 scumlynch-- can't complain. I feel that this was a good opening vote, better than any OMGUS/RVS garbage at least.

But my vote is more than just a personal preference of mine. I can already tell that she's impatient to draw blood. 'Lurkers' seem to be getting under her skin, even though we're only 4 days into the game. But at the same time, most of her posts are fluff.. avatar discussion, popemobile, and setup theory? There's no meat. No scumhunting.

I still haven't decided whether or not to jump on the IrishWagon, but I want to mention that this post seems scummy to me:

Think of me as scum, vote for me. That's fine. However, I shit you not, I am not scum.

... wherein Irish speaks to Whiskers as if he knows that Whiskers is town.

In this post:

MBF uses faulty logic (hey where have I heard that before) to justify his out of nowhere Rach vote.

MBF generalizes Rach's play (I believe, for our logic lovers, we call that a "strawman") in order to portray her as someone who will not find scum by pointing out three tiny examples of her play and ignoring all the actual scumhunting she's done.

MBF creates a bad excuse for his future jump on the TIP D1 ML wagon. Seriously, how is TIP implying that he knows Whisk is town?

[Lastsurvivor]

LS: Do you feel mike gives good reasons in the "ends justify the means" sense?

Well considering the "ends" means a Rach lynch, and MBF's reasoning for the lynch are lacking then...no, not really.

[Lastsurvivor]

somany catch up posts ack

Hiraki's is good, Nacho doesn't really say anything new and plops down a lazy ass vote. At least Whisk admitted he was policy lynching.

MBF is goodposting as of late. And his push on DCL is a pretty good one, actually.

UNVOTE:

I was kinda hoping it was an anagram for "slop", myself.

You hadn't posted in like 70 posts and that's all you had to say?

[Lastsurvivor]

Unfortunately I can't be the hero when the main wagon is on scum.

I'd probably think this was wicked clever if it was right.

[Lastsurvivor]

VOTE: No Lynch

Supposing that at least fifty percent of us used our arming powers tonight, we have a high chance of killing scum. I am proposing that we wait and not risk killing town.

I'm not even sure why you would suggest this.

(I mean, you gave reasoning, but it makes no sense...)

Does anyone here played with goodmorning more than once?

I've played with her once! Does that count?

VOTE: Syryana

[Lastsurvivor]

Yup, there's a reason.

[Lastsurvivor]

Bussing. When Sryr flips scum, you're her best mate.

Well if you're so sure that Hiraki's bussing then why don't you vote Syr?

[Lastsurvivor]

Actually, fuck that: LastSurvivor, why are you voting Syryana?

Ohey I'm glad you asked.

I actually alluded to my reasoning here:

I was kinda hoping it was an anagram for "slop", myself.

You hadn't posted in like 70 posts and that's all you had to say?

It's similar to your reasoning for voting Monty, really. He's obviously lying low and when his head pops up he just posts useless shit like that.

Syr's #314 is full of cockiness/confidence, but it doesn't ring town to me at all. There's no actual scumhunting there -- just one off comments. And I don't know why he criticized MBF's case on DCL when it's not a bad one at all. Especially since he just voted DCL afterwards, for no reason other than his defense...to a "bad" case...was bad.

[Lastsurvivor]

Are you at all familiar with my scum meta? You should probably look into that. Also, I did explicitly state my #314 was bullshit. If you wanna interpret that as scummy that's your prerogative.

a) according to your wiki, your one and only scum game was your first game on site. So, no, I'm not going to buy your meta excuse. I know my meta has drastically changed since my first game, and ohoho, it was a scum game as well. I honestly think it's scummy that you brought this point up.
b) you didn't explicitly state nothing. You said:

Always respond to bullshit with bullshit; it's one of my rules.

Which doesn't imply that #314 is bullshit. Rather, it implies that you responded to the bullshit parts of #314 with bullshit...unless you thought everything you responded to in #314 was bullshit?

Syryana has given us a decent post and started playing, even if she's WRONG and misrepping...

So we're giving misrepping and incorrectness a pass as long as they're posting now...?
(Ironic given my stance on TIP, I know, but I would argue that Syr is misrepping not because he's newbtown but because he's newbscum who is having trouble making proper scum arguments)

---

A Hiraki wagon is ok...but only ok. The only issue I have with him is how he's responding under pressure. He appeases Nacho by saying that he knew it was silly to no vote, but then he defends himself to Rach by saying that he was voting Syr...? Doesn't make sense.

MBF I've liked since he actually started posting content and not nonsensical PL.

[Lastsurvivor]

Pretty much. The way I managed to rationalize my vote going on Syryana was that she was giving us crap, no effort posts. She stopped giving us crap, no effort posts, so I took my vote off. I don't really like it there.

We're getting to the point where voting off crappy players won't win us the game. I think you shouldn't be basing your vote on "I don't like this guy," but rather whether or not their actions make sense from a town perspective.

Also, I'm not sure what DCL's vote has to do with your vote at all...

[Lastsurvivor]

What did you like about his earlier play?

His catch up post had plenty of substance, which is more than I can say for yours.

But, hey, the main wagon was on scum, so you couldn't be a "hero" and actually put some effort into it, right?

Oh. Right.

Just an FYI to everyone, Syr has been posting pretty much everywhere but here.

So hopefully people believe me when I say that he's lying low.

[Lastsurvivor]

Also, hopefully people see the implications of Syr not posting while a counter wagon to his wagon is forming.

Because I know I do.

[Lastsurvivor]

Also, hopefully people see the implications of Syr not posting while a counter wagon to his wagon is forming.

Because I know I do.

[Lastsurvivor]

Really?

I'm not sure if that's rhetorical or not...

Your "catching up" was just a glorified push on TiP and hardly focused on anything else. The only thing Hiraki's lacked is a vote, and I'm not sure how I feel about not voting being a scumtell.

It's hard to put a lot of effort into pushing people who are clearly coasting, as I'm sure you've noticed.

I'd describe TiP's behavior more as flailing.

But yes, pushing lurkerscum is hard. Help me out and vote Syr, Nacho.

[Lastsurvivor]

Misunderstood what the hero jab was aimed at. But no, won't join Syr was I'm doing fine on my top suspect.

But Syr's your #2, right?

[Lastsurvivor]

I don't recall you voting before your catch up post...

pedit: what nacho said etc etc etc

Nacho when syr decides to pop out of his turtle shell and posts a steaming pile of crap you should consider bumping him up to your #1 and...voting him.

[Lastsurvivor]

I'll take this into consideration depending on the flip we get from Hiraki. If Hiraki is scum, why would scum-Syryana lurk the wagon off? Wouldn't she bus/buddy her scumpartner?

Hiraki-scum exonerates Syr (now havingfitz) to an extent, I agree. But I don't really see the case on Hiraki other than that, as MBF just said, he doesn't look to be putting in much effort.

That said, MBF looks like he's trying to fan the flames of the Hiraki lynch without actually being on the wagon...

ALSO, Syr is still actively posting in games despite requesting replacement. This isn't an extremely active game, so it makes me wonder why he chose this one to replace out of over his others...

[Lastsurvivor]

That's probably the reason.

Meh. I think it's active enough that I'd feel bad about replacing out if I had too many games going on.

But I'm not going to check out his ongoing games because that feels weird.

[Lastsurvivor]

Also umm Mike there are no vigs in this setup so why bring that up? it is basically almost an all vanilla game just once shot PGOs.

Rachhhhhh

Think of anyone and everyone in this game you haven't really given a hard read on.

Now give a hard read on them.

There's nothing necessarily wrong with Fitz's catch up post (although I didn't read it in depth), but it doesn't really impress me either.

[Lastsurvivor]

@LS…what are the implications to Syryana not posting while a counter wagon grows?  If you are saying it implies someone is scum...how??  

Don't play dumb. Syr actively avoided this game while posting in others while people were asking him questions/voting him. Obviously I think it implies you're scum.

[Lastsurvivor]

I wanted to see how a counter wagon mattered to that point and in light of what I would view as light pressure and an obvious overload of other commitments.

You're splitting hairs. The counter-wagon is important because he was lying low while the attention was going away from him and onto Hiraki.

His other commitments are irrelevant. I'm not saying he abandoned this game solely because he's scum. I'm saying he abandoned it because he needed to prioritize, and I don't understand why he would bail on a game where he was under pressure if he was town since it would just lead to a hellish situation for his replacement.

It's more likely for him to replace out as scum, since him not posting is a detriment to his team and he probably figured that his replacement would be better able to post than him.

ANYWAY, my posting has been shit today? Point out where, other than that post you quoted earlier.

[Lastsurvivor]

I love you LS ♥, but I am just not seeing the Syr case... I think Hiraki more likely. Though I did mix him up without going into details, cause ongoing, this is not the only game I have with Syr. Personally based on his personality, he loves to troll games, I think it more likely he is town here and replaced out due to wanting to focus on a couple other of his games.

Rach before I respond could you respond to [url=lhttp://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=4939735#p4939735]this[/url] for me (also I think we've gotten to the point where you can give reads on mostly everyone here )

I don't think he "trolled" this game while he was here though, but I'm not going to do meta research on someone who only has one scum game...

I don't see Hirakiscum. Hiraki looked like town who was frustrated that people were just giving him shit..

Fitz OTOH isn't impressing me when he asks me an oddly specific question and then accuses me of deflecting when I basically answer it. Also I'm not impressed that Fitz is basically declaring my Syr case debunk although he ignored the other points I brought up before the whole "Fitz is posting in other places omgscum" thing.

While I admit that, yes, Syr could have just gotten too much on his plate and decided to drop this game over all of his others, I had plenty of other issues with his posting before that. And Fitz isn't looking any better in his response.

[Lastsurvivor]

uggh link is not working LS

Fixed!

The frustration seemed genuine, but I'm not sure he wouldn't respond that way if he was scum in the same position.

Maybe :/ I'd never replace out as scum if I could actively post because it just feels like cheating, even if everyone was swarming me. I'm not Hiraki so oh well.

[Lastsurvivor]

BTW...LS...how do you like Fegelein's catch up? 

I don't.

I know better than anyone that PbP analysis ensures that no one ever reads your posts. It's a great scum catch up tactic (and if you're in a particularly active game, a good posting tactic...) +10 scum points for Feng.

THAT SAID, I'm mulling over whether or not the "I have one shot" thing was a town tell or not.

Rach, I kinda doubt it since this is a game with day talk. His partners could have told him to say that. Did you consider that?

[Lastsurvivor]

wait LS scumz have daytalk but this is not nightless??

Correct. I'm not totally sure why.

normally, but I went and looked at a game feg had replaced into, viewtopic.php?f=11&t=26585, and he also did a PBP and low and behold he was town so its pretty clear that doing so isn't a scumtell on him.

Nice catch...so it's just anti-town then.

I've been reading Monty's ISO and...eh...everything seems to follow in his ISO in terms of trains of thought. He gives me bad gut feelings, but I couldn't tell you why. Maybe it's the whole pushing no lynch thing. And he looks like he's just strategically active lurking (ironic given I'm posting about getting prodded but eheh).

[Lastsurvivor]

Actually, I take back the coherent trains of thoughts comment:

To be perfectly honest, I saw Hiraki as more town than anything else. Feng has done nothing but begin to change that belief.

The "Oh yeah I thought Hiraki was town" thing came out of nowhere. If this is true, Monty, then...

a) What was the motivation for your question to Hiraki in #217?
b) Why did you hardly speak out during the Hiraki wagon? You asked Rach a question about her suspicion of Hiraki, sure, but you instead spent most of the time pushing a NL.

[Lastsurvivor]

b) No lynch was the way to go, and I still believe it can be beneficial in this setup especially. However, for reasons I have stated, I am down for a DCLXVI lynch.

You dodged the question...

Why didn't you speak out against the Hiraki wagon?

[Lastsurvivor]

Not dodging the question at all, actually. I answered it fully. I was pushing for a no-lynch because I didn't think the names being thrown out were obviously scum, or even acting like scum.

VOTE: MontyWhittaker

Try again.

[Lastsurvivor]

My post count is even higher. RachMarie's postcount is higher than DCL's. Have either of us added anything big to the conversations?

Rach's high post count is kind of astounding since she's become a nonpresence in this game...

This game is filled with nonpresences, unfortunately.

[Lastsurvivor]

The same reason I didn't say that I believed Rach was town. It was an incidental occurence.

Incidental occurrence my ass. You didn't have to say Rach was town because Rach wasn't being bandwagoned.

DCL is right on the money.

So he's just supposed to let his Town read die?

You just proved DCL's point, accidentally of course. DCL misspoke -- Monty was choosing option A, not option B. Monty A didn't speak up against the Hiraki wagon at all, despite thinking he was town.

So, you're right Feng, it's absurd that townMonty would just let his town read die!

[Lastsurvivor]

DCLXVI, the response to that is simple. I wasn't very active at all in pushing for anyone, town or scum. At the time I was still attempting to push for a no-lynch, which I can see was not necessarily the best move to be making at the time.

This just sounds hollow...ugh

Alright, why did you ignore all the criticism people were giving you re: the no lynch? When you voted NL in #294, plenty of people told you why it was a bad idea (including DCL immediately after you posted it). Roughly 150 posts later, you ask in #427 for some "viable concerns" to a NL, ignoring all that criticism and asking for more.

Your NL vote just looks like a ploy to feign activity and absolve yourself of the responsibility of having to vote for someone. Am I right?

You better "counter" quick, because DL is coming up.

rule of thumb on this site Monty, most of the time even a mislynch is better than a NL, the main exception is MYLO where mislynching would lead to a lost game and it is better to NL and go into LYLO the next day. There have been a few other cases I have seen, like when Nacho had us do it in a Newbie game where we had only one scum left and the JK seemed kinda shady... though turned out he was legit. But in general NL is bad juju dont suggest it.

Rach posts like this are not making me feel good about you. :/

If you're town, stop commenting on theory tidbits and start pushing scum. What do you think of Monty?

----

@DCL voters: Since we are closing in on DL, I'll say that I'm just not seeing DCL scum. What's the case on him? One of you guys could step up and post it/link back to it for me.

I'd have to see a pretty convincing case to consider voting for Feg at this point.

[Lastsurvivor]

Monty is dealing with a number of players who are better than him but are attacking him for reasons that aren't really that good.

Expecting him to defend his townreads when he can't even defend himself is one of those unrealistic expectations

that lead to mislynch after mislynch after mislynch.

I hope this isn't an allusion to the train wreck of a mislynch that happened yesterday. There's a huge difference between Monty and TiP, the most obvious being that Monty has more games under his belt than erratic newbtown TiP.

The bolded part of your quote is just...what. You're absolutely right that Monty can't defend himself, but I'm pretty sure it's because he has no suitable answer vs. not being able to play the game. There's a difference between someone who just gives inadequate answers and someone who blatantly dodges the question.

Frankly, I find it strange you're willing to give Monty a pass for not being able to defend himself, but you were ruthless when it came to TiP not being able to defend himself.

Rach...you're already voting Feng.

[Lastsurvivor]

What is the strong point of the case on Monty?

I'm suspicious of Monty for two reasons:

a) #513 - Monty mentions that he thought Hiraki was town, after rarely mentioning him beforehand. It looked like he said Hiraki was town as an excuse to not hop on the Feng wagon after posting that condescending remark about his point system in #510. I asked him about this, expecting an answer that at least answered the question. I didn't get that, repeatedly (#560, #570), which makes me think that he just didn't have a good answer.

b) Just look at my post #625, but I have a few problems with Monty pushing the NL. Monty has played enough games that he should know pushing NLs is not optimal strategy, and it's unusual that he just kept on pushing it while ignoring everyone who told him it was a bad idea. I think he wanted to look like he was stirring up the pot by proposing something unique while at the same time not having to vote anyone.

[Lastsurvivor]

Oh whoops, thought that was just a general question. Sorry.

[Lastsurvivor]

I did answer the question as completely as I could. The fact is that my focus was on something else at the time, something which it shouldn't have been.

Again, your point is kind of invalid. I am still a newb in the truest sense of the word. I am pretty sure I don't qualify as an SE player at this point with my experience. Hold your judgment and focus it on the true scum. Yes, it was unique, and yes, it was a bad decision...

Two completed and a few ongoing, but sure you're kind of a newb in a technical sense.

But part of my issue is with you ignoring what everyone else said about your NL dealio. Was that also a lack of focus or somesuch?

Rach at this point which wagon do you think you would compromise onto?

[Lastsurvivor]

Otherwise, stop spreading out across four different wagons.

THIIIIIIIISSSS

Seriously, we don't have time to start making new wagons. Prospective TAM wagoneers better move fast otherwise...we don't have time to waste with that sideshow.

And FITZ you need to hop off of Whiskers because you're just wasting your vote.

I'm gonna hop onto Feng or DCL, since there's not enough interest in a Monty lynch today...gimme some time to figure out which one (I'm not too crazy about either of them).

[Lastsurvivor]

I thought Hiraki was town, remember.

But Feng's point system and overall wall posting gives me the heebie jeebies, although he's done it as town before.

[Lastsurvivor]

Meeeh, I might end up hopping on Feg.

I read DCL's ISO...lots of contradictions early on but he's definitely improved in the later game. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about that.

Rach sorry if you've said this before but what do you think of DCL

Reading Feg now...maybe Hiraki's and TAM's if I have the time.

[Lastsurvivor]

Surprise, I'm actually reading his catch up posts too.

They REALLY give me the heebie jeebies...I'm not entirely sure how I posted in my scum N1206 catch up posts, but I really don't like em.

One reason for that is he keeps on giving TiP scum points...which is holy moses cognitive dissonance.

#74 by TIP: I think he realised he screwed up, but he carried on with his word. That earns him 3 points immediately as that is a major scum tell in my books.

Like this! It's a "major scum tell," done by someone he KNOWS is town!!!

TAM...meh. I mean, DCL does have a minor point with that wagon, but I'm not sure if it's worth pushing a vote over. The only other thing that concerned me was that he pushed TiP all day, but I remember he was one of the towns on the wagon for some reason.

Ahhh I dunno who to vote for. I really like Monty...think I'll just change my vote sometime during tomorrow's scramble.

[Lastsurvivor]

Monty is at L-2 sooooooooooo LASTSURVIVOR, you need to hop off of Monty because you're just wasting your vote.

You're hilarious <3

I gave TIP scum points in order to justify if he was the best lynch. Maybe universally for the entire town, but not for me personally. It's a little difficult though to avoid hindsight bias.

Doesn't the fact that TiP was town and getting so many scum points reveal the inherent flaw in that point system?

Feg: Don't like the out of nowhere Nacho scum read. Likewise, don't like how all of your scum reads are the current lynch targets....better vote than DCL imo so

VOTE: Feg

L-1 L-1 L-1 L-1

[Lastsurvivor]

I'm not sure about TAMscum....

I'll reread his ISO in a bit since I only skimmed it last night, but tbh I'm not sure why most of the people voting TAM are doing so (except DCL)

[Lastsurvivor]

Whisk, you (DCL), and MBF I'm pretty confident are town

Monty I still think is scum but less so as I'm taking off my tunnel vision.

Rach and Nacho I constantly waver on whether or not they're town/scum, and I think the way this lynch goes will play a large part in determining that. ATM I'm calling them town...

Everyone else is pretty much null, which is why I'm having a hard time with this lynch.

[Lastsurvivor]

Monty would be the strongest, so not really atm
I need to do ISOs in such but that'll be tomorrow
For now I've been isoing the lynch candidates
Speaking of, don't really see tam scum. Only reason is that he lurks from what I can tell.

[Lastsurvivor]

L's... you don't have tomorrow... there is a deadline coming up in case you can't read.

By tomorrow I meant next game day...sorry for being less clear.

And alright I'll vote TAM

Actually wait he's at L-1 isn't he

Are we going to just QL him or see if he's gonna show up or what

I'd rather not quick-hammer him since I'm hesitant about the lynch in general and want to hear his last words, but I understand if that's what you all think we should do given the circumstances...

[Lastsurvivor]

Wanna give the lowdown on your reads TAM?

[Lastsurvivor]

Feg's scum... Monty's prob scum as well.

But you were saying Monty was town earlier??

Hammering in like 10 minutes, so everyone say their peace and whatnot

I don't like how last is assuming that he will be around tomorrow... That seems more like something scum would say.

Surviving the night is just one of those things that I assume will happen, even though I know perfectly well I could be NK'd.

It's annoying to say "Yeah I'll do ISOs tomorrow (unless I get NKd ofc dundundun)." It's implied.

[Lastsurvivor]

VOTE: TAM

les go

[Lastsurvivor]

Scum could always not shoot tonight just to deprive us of more of our shots, a no-lynch is not beneficial in this setup.

Ding ding ding ding

When I modded this setup scum no killed in order to thin out people's shots. Granted that wasn't in MYLO, but it happened.

But this is a setup where it actually benefits the scum to no kill.

ISOs n such. Starting with Nacho and then going in alphabetical order.

[Lastsurvivor]

I agree that it is unlikely. However, the possibility of it will put more pressure on scum during mylo.

PGO shots are useless after a mislynch in lylo and if we no-lynch today they will also be useless because scum have the option to not kill.

Therefor, the only way to make the remaining pgo shots have value is to lynch today and if there is a mislynch everyone ought to use their pgo ability. If scum don't kill we get another day and if they hit an active pgo we get another day.

Note that the former mod of this set up agrees with DCL and basically no one else.

[Lastsurvivor]

Haven't done Whisk's ISO but done all the rest. Might do an analysis reads order thingamabob if I feel up to it, but for now I don't.

For now

Nacho, I'm really not convinced with your sudden start on the TAM wagon. What about TAM did you find so scummy that you felt like switching ~18 hours pre-deadline?

Likewise, there are two separate things about your TAM hop that I find scummy:

1) Immediately after your TAM vote you ask Feg a question in #737 about where he was posting. I.e., after your TAM vote, you were still pursuing your case on Feg despite the fact that you just essentially dismantled the wagon on him. And the fact that your

2) reasoning for Feg-town is weak and ill-presented also gives me the willies. In #739, you say the Feg looked "sort of town." So, you were switching wagons pre-DL for someone who only looked sort of town? And, as if you immediately realized why that looked bad, you corrected it in #740 to say that he actually looks "REALLY" town. And I think the fact that your read took a complete 180 just because he attacked you is wicked scummy, given the amount of time you've spent pursuing both Hiraki and Feg (basically ever since TIP got lynched).

[Lastsurvivor]

Alternatively, Rach could have been killed by Nacho because she kept on explaining his scum meta. #733 was one of these posts.

Interestingly enough, after Rach made that post saying that Nacho buses his partners, Nacho hopped off of the Feng wagon and voted TAM in #736.

This suggests that Nacho and Feng are double bussing each other, which I'm finding more and more plausible the more I think about it. I can't think of a town-motivated rationale for Nacho's hop off the Feng wagon, in any case.

Nacho buses Feng to get town cred -> Rach points out that Nacho buses his partners -> Nacho leads TAM quicklynch to deprive town of useful information and because it'd be bad if Rach realized that Nacho was playing to his scum meta -> Rach dies.

[Lastsurvivor]

Survivor is town-- LS, what's your read on DCL?

He's probably my weakest town read. His early play was horrendously inconsistent, but I do like his TAM stand. I think it was just taken advantage of by scum.

[Lastsurvivor]

A Monty/Nacho scum team looks really likely from recent developments.

Hey I accused you of being Nacho's scum partner

How does that make you feel

@Whisk: You're the only ISO I haven't read, but the fact that I haven't felt an urge to read it probably means you're town.

And I think MBF is town, but I'm not sure you or DCL agree with that one.

[Lastsurvivor]

Explain.

I already have, buckaroo. Read #824.

Have you been reading carefully?

I see a bunch of scumreads on Nacho, who I don't have any read on. What's the situ on his scuminess? Like, why is he a potential lynch?

I'd really recommend reading his ISO.

But MBF gathered up most of the things I've been saying about Nacho here, along with other people's arguments from the looks of it.

[Lastsurvivor]

I think it is also possible that nacho is the one being framed for the TAM wagon. That's something I need to think about some more.

Who do you think is framing Nacho?

MBF how do you feel about Nacho (himself, not the wagon)?

[Lastsurvivor]

@DCL:

I think it is also possible that nacho is the one being framed for the TAM wagon. That's something I need to think about some more.

Who do you think is framing Nacho?

I like Survivor's post 824 that asserts that Rach could have been killed because she was explaining Nacho meta. However, that logic only works if Feng is scum, and completely falls apart if Feng is town.

Yeah, you're right. I'd never make a claim like that unless I really felt it could be possible, and it's the best explanation for Rach's death that I can come up with.

That said, I think Nacho is scum regardless of Feg's alignment.

Hi, I'm taking the day off mostly, so all I have to say is
We should be

psuedo

vote

-ing, because we're no lynching today.

Hey, uh, what happened to the "let's agree on a scum read and lynch them" thing?

[Lastsurvivor]

If there's a Feng-Nacho scumteam, then they've been bussing the hell out of each other all game, which would make Nacho's change-of-heart when Feng is about to be lynched seem out of place. He starts the wagon, encourages it, pushes it to the edge, but backs off when it seems inevitable?

I don't think they're scum together.

I think he backed off because Rach said this:

you clearly dont know Nacho well. When he is scum and busses he does it really hard and fast. None of this halfway stuffs...

And expanded on it in #733.

I don't understand his TAM switch from a town-motivated point of view. From a scum motivated point of view it makes sense. Either Nacho felt self conscious about bussing his partner when someone who knew his meta was ingame and blabbing about it so he switched...or he wanted to create a quick lynch to taint a lot of the analysis we could do from examining the day's lynch wagon.

@Whisk: Worst case scenario: Tomorrow is today again, except a bunch of us will waste our shots.

[Lastsurvivor]

But it doesn't matter if we've wasted our shots, because we'll lynch tomorrow.

oh, no I get it. Ok, yeah, if we lynch today, scum has to shoot to win immediately and not go to lylo. But if we DO lynch now, then we use our remaining shots and scum has to kill and risk getting killed or go to lylo. Right?

yup basically.

If we no lynch today, it's ideal for scum to no kill and I'm sure some of us will stupidly use our shots despite this.

If we lynch today, we should ALL use our shots tonight so that we have a much higher chance of hitting scum. Even if we lynch scum, imo.

[Lastsurvivor]

Survivor, why do you think Nacho is scum? Because all the reasons you give seem to either revolve around Nacho bussing Feng, or Nacho scummily attacking Feng, and sometimes you seem to contradict yourself.

I don't like how he came into this game and just started attacking TiP right away. That's not how I expect townNacho to replace into a game, having seen him do it more than once. See Open 459 and Mind Reader mafia, two games where he replaced in as town. In both, Nacho asks players questions and makes other general observations. So to see him just replace into this game and start mindlessly pushing the easy wagon alarms me.

Then there's the hop onto the TAM wagon, which I still don't get. Nacho spent a majority of his time after TiP died pushing the Feg slot, so I find it hard to believe that he suddenly saw Feg town and swapped up the wagons.

What do you think about Fitz? Specifically the part where he votes Nacho because he thinks Feng is scum.

I'm not sure what specifics you're referring to there.

But his ISO (at least everything up until today, haven't done an ISO for that) was pretty content-light, and there's little to no suspicion or even mention of Nacho there at all. So his Nacho vote is a bit surprising, given that.

Is he scum? Maybe. He's a weak scum read, at any rate. I've played with Fitz-scum before, and the only difference I'm seeing is that in my previous game with him he asked the mod a lot more about vote counts, prods, etc.

Personally, I'd like to see him cite his sources on his accuracy re people still being alive scum tell.

Didn't find TAM that scummy, but he was an unreadable pool of nothing. I switched mainly because I saw town-Feg; he had literally 18 hours before deadline and he starts this stubborn crusade against me that I could not see coming from a scum mindset. His main motive as scum would be surviving, meaning that he would probably end up avoiding me, not really giving good positions on me OR calling me town and trying to convince me he was town. Instead he pulls out the "yeah I don't give a shit about dying you're scum and i'll get you lynched eventually", which completely goes against my view of scumFeg. He's aggressive as hell when town but hasn't played scum before so I'd figure he'd be coasty scum. Same thing with Hiraki. I wanted to double check that he wasn't getting a little bit of bravery because he was absolutely fucked, but i wanted to see if his response was honest. It was.

But, like I said to MBF, you pushed on the Hiraki/Feg wagon almost immediately after you stopped pushing the TiP wagon. I can't imagine that all it took was one last push from Feg to make you switch your mind.

And wasn't TAM your second highest suspect, according to #691? Why is he now not that scummy?

[Lastsurvivor]

viewtopic.php?t=27202&f=51&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&user_select[]=11658&user_select[]=0&user_select[]=0&user_sort=Go
viewtopic.php?t=27515&f=83&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&user_select[]=11658&user_select[]=0&user_select[]=0&user_sort=Go
Here are two counterexamples to me replacing in as town and being aggressive as fuck.

Those just make me feel more uncomfortable about you if anything.

a) Yes, you hopped onto a wagon/started suspecting someone, but you were actually right on both counts.
b) In the second link, you weren't just hopping on the popular wagon, and the first link didn't even have wagons so I can't really gauge whether or not ff was a popular target.
c) Especially in the second link, you have this confidence in those two games that you just seem to lack.

your thoughts on my response to the Feng/Rach team would be great.

Do you mean?:

So I was so unbelievably afraid of Rach calling me out for bussing that I changed my meta AND killed her? I also lynch scum as town, and it's a lot easier to defend against (you bus as scum --> you lynched scum --> you're scum) than "explain a last second push on a lurker AND your crazy flipflop on this townie".

Sure, that is a lot easier to defend. I admit the theory is far fetched for the reasons you stated, but I think you're scum regardless of whether or not Feg is. It's just a theory that neatly explains all the questions I had (Why Feg suddenly attacked you, why you switched onto TAM, why Rach died, etc.).

You keep trying to make me explain this to you under the basis of "TAM was scummy as fuck", but that's not how the process worked. TAM didn't make himself scum, Feg made himself town. And that was good enough for a chance in lynch for me.

Alright, nice work side-stepping the question. Was TAM your second highest scumspect or not...? And if that's a yes, why did you say that you didn't find him that scummy?

[Lastsurvivor]

Eh, it's L-3 atm, so all three of them would have to.

Plus, they still have to shoot correctly tonight to win the game, so if they just jumped on all at once and misfired tonight, it'd be game over.

[Lastsurvivor]

Blah. You're convincing me Nacho.

Although Mastin also convinced me in MR mafia and that didn't go over so well.

But I'll think on it.

I still don't really get what you're saying about TAM. You just didn't find your second highest scumspect that scummy then?

What did that make Whisk, your third highest, then?

[Lastsurvivor]

Uh...I'm posting plenty of substance.  Perhaps you should ISO me.  And I hardly think I'm staying in the background when I initiate wagons on two people I have suspicions towards (Monty and Whiskers) and supported your wagon D1 and Nacho's today.  No blending in fmpov. 

Defending yourself =/= substance

Throwing away your vote on a going-nowhere wagon =/= substance

Just sayin'.

Here's an opportunity to post some substance: Top three scum reads and why you think they're scum. Go!

[Lastsurvivor]

Survivor. He just posted his top three scumreads in his last post.

I am curious why he suspects Whiskers and Monty 'tho.

Oops missed that part.

Still want him to answer the

why

part of my question.

And I don't find reading what he's already said on them adequate since they've all (except Monty) posted since then, hence why I asked him the question.

I haven't just defended myself. Misrep.

Just sayin'.

It's definitely a majority of your ISO, maybe not in terms of post count, but in terms of word count. So you might as well have.

And how have I been "Throwing away [my] vote on a going-nowhere wagon?". Please elaborate ....

I was referring to the Whisk wagon. That wasn't going anywhere and at the time you made your Whisk vote only served to delay the day and create that train wreck that was the TAM wagon.

[Lastsurvivor]

And this suggests that Fitz is scum with DCL or that Fitz is scum with Whiskers, right? Since neither of these, I have to disregard this as a scumtell.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

If the angle you're getting at is he was trying to derail a bandwagons on his partner, then it'd suggest that a multitude of people are scum (Monty, Feg, DCL).

But I'm not sure why you singled out DCL...

OTOH, I'm also not sure why it would imply Youscum at all. There's nothing indicative that he'd be bussing by voting you (and there's nothing indicative that his vote on you would make you town either, fwiw).

TBF a fitz lynch makes me uneasy since he didn't go this hardcore defending himself when he got lynched in the scum game I played with him. I can't find a town game where Fitz got mislynched, so I can't exactly compare though. And I feel like everyone else who is (actively) posting is town....so I feel a little stuck here. :/

Might need to reISO tomorrow or the next day.

[Lastsurvivor]

REplacing in is a little different, but I'm just reading and posting quickly (LA until further notice), so I don't know if that actually has any bearing on LS's srgument.

Nah, I'm looking more into whether or not his defensive nature appears in his town games, since it doesn't really appear in his scum games.

From the two town games he linked, and the scum games he linked, his behavior here seems to be an anomaly.

[Lastsurvivor]

Saying things like that makes me paranoid.

You posting just enough to avoid getting prodded for this past week makes me paranoid.

[Lastsurvivor]

Uhh...I was on Whiskers for less than 2 pages. How is trying to start a wagon on someone I suspect throwing my vote away? I moved my vote when her wagon failed to get support. Considering I started the Monty wagon (which you eventually joined) and joined the Fegelein wagon (which you joined me on) till the end of D1 I hardly think a short time on Whiskers is "throwing away"my vote.

Because you didn't do anything else besides vote Whiskers. You didn't try to get us to understand your reasons for voting her, or seriously push the wagon. You just looked like you were trying to be unique, but in reality you just wasted everyone's time.

Also...you keep on saying that you started the Monty wagon. But being the first vote on a wagon does not give you town points unless you push whoever your wagoning. You didn't mention Monty at all after you voted him. You commented on basically everyone else, but not Monty. The first time you mention him after your vote is in #660, when you unvote him because his posts are suddenly genuine (what the fuck does that mean anyway).

A common thread in the wagons you've "started" this game is that they don't get the support they need for a lynch...that's because you haven't been committing to them. Sure, you voted some out of nowhere suspects and you were going against the crowd...but that doesn't mean anything if you just go back to being a floater afterwards.

[Lastsurvivor]

Bonus points to Whiskers for getting my point to mbf.

Negative points to mbf for his level of wrongness. It is starting to get to the point I think it's intentional.

Nothing to say to #951?

I'm this close (| |) to voting you, pseudo or otherwise (since I'm still not clear what the consensus is re: lynch/no lynch, although I've made my position on the issue clear enough)

[Lastsurvivor]

AD HOM alert!!! AD HOM alert!!!!

I may not be an expert on logical fallacies, but I'm pretty sure that's not how ad hom works...

Lastsurvivor....what about Post 951?  I think I've given my thoughts on everything you mentioned in 951.  You didn't ask me a question...and anything I responded with would probably be a repeat of what I have already said...since nothing has changed.

Ok, fine, I'll put it in the form of a question:

Could you tell me if anything and everything I said in #951 is not true? And could you tell me why?

Yes, and that worked so well. So well, in fact, that neither one of them acknowledged it.

I acknowledged your block...that is until I realized the three of us don't have a common preferred lynch target.

[Lastsurvivor]

Eh. I'm not sure mike's misrepping moreso than he's pushing on a weak point with this whole "you don't remember how you felt," dealio.

I do see what he's trying to say, but I'm not entirely sure if it's relevant or alignment indicative.

And I think it was a common townread we couldn't agree on....not sure if we ever got to the whole finding a common scum read part.

[Lastsurvivor]

I don't keep on saying anything. I mentioned it once iirc to show my votes were having an impact. Monty got to L-2. Who knows where Whiskers would have gotten if I had had support for her wagon. You promote wagons the way you want to and keep your townpoints.

The amount of times you mentioned it isn't relevant, although thanks for the correction.

How can you claim your vote had impact when you didn't even do anything with it? That's what I care about. There's nothing townie about starting a wagon and not focusing on it. Scum can do it too.

Just me? You were on Monty and Fegelein at various points D2 as well. Did they fail because you didn't push them enough as well? How well was your vote utilized at the end of D1? This post really didn't warrant a response but since you kept wanting one there you go.

What...? I think you missed my point. My status on those wagons isn't relevant since I didn't start the wagons. That's what I'm holding you accountable for. You vote people and then you don't focus on them. Instead, you focus on just about anyone else. Unless you're claiming I do the same thing (I'd argue I've been doing the opposite, really), this response is a load of hogwash.

Also, the fact that you were on Whisk for only 24 hours pretty much highlights my point that you were just throwing your vote away, and it looks like you were just trying to throw a wrench in yesterday's scramble. Sure, you justified your vote, but you (again) didn't push it in a time where you needed to.

[Lastsurvivor]

Fitz it makes me sad whenever you ignore my posts

Did you address everything I said in my most recent one as well?

Also I'm getting all caught up in graduation stuff, so posting will be spotty. I'll try to find the time to post tomorrow.

[Lastsurvivor]

Yeah wow!!! Wow an out of nowhere lynch target you are so town!

Ok I'm going to hammer in like 15 minutes. We're not repeating yesterday with the informationless wagon.

Fitz if you have something to say you better say it.

[Lastsurvivor]

VOTE: havingfitz

Here's the deal: If we're wrong and fitz is town, then we all shoot tonight.
If we're right, do what you want.

[Lastsurvivor]

We all shoot tonight no matter what.

No, then scum will just no kill and all of our shots will be gone.

[Lastsurvivor]

^ in the hopeful scenario of fitz-scum.

If fitz is town then scum have to shoot, so, again, everyone should shoot if we mislynch today.

[Lastsurvivor]

That's the last time I ever let anyone dissuade me from lynching them. >_<

Of course I was dreadfully wrong about Mike, and suspicious about Whisk but I never had the will to push it.

BUT NACHOOO

[Lastsurvivor]

Optimal strategy for this game has got to be for town to wait for MYLO to use their shots. Looking at everyone who shot pre-MYLO (and thinking on my modded game), town are bad at perceiving when they'll get NKd.

[Lastsurvivor]

Every time I saw "LS" in-thread I got confused.

I'm feeling this same confusion while reading through the scum QT.

I'd like to keep LS because he's super-townie and super-wrong. The only thing better than a scum leading the town, is a scum-sponsored town leading the town.

Hah! <3