Open 503 - POLYGAMY IS EVIL. GAME OVER

[Nachomamma8]

Dude there's no advantage for the town in claiming. It gives the advantage to SCUM knowing what the pairs are so that they can know who they can lynch easier.

what
if town can't read one player, it also links that player to another.

Compare that to scum knowing beforehand that said player is paired with you. They won't push him at all. They will go for pairs that are lynchable.

town pushed scummy looking scum
claims lover with townie looking scum


VV and TAM-Core seem town as fuck.

don't really like Voodoo Lady, Absta, Marangal

[Nachomamma8]

and yeah, I like keeping the mystery for a little while
but people who want to claim aren't putting forth crazy bad ideas, they're just putting forth ideas
so the hammering and complete disbelief and suspicion of people for wanting to claim early is stupid

[Nachomamma8]

Ok, I can entertain with the idea of Vigilante-scum, but I won't have time to do anything until tomorrow and if someone get's run up to L-3 before then I will freak out on everyone

Why is L-3 that big of a deal? 8 town lovers, 4 polygamist mafia lovers. Meaning they all aren't going to quickhammer on D1 when they have another day to worry about, no?

I also want to be able to talk to Nacho before anything drastic happens

<3
talk to me

Yes Mutts, it's because it's because of the type of game.

I would say L-4 but I'm hoping that scum is smart enough to not quick-lynch

I think you're being a little paranoid. I'm excited to see what you think about things.

[Nachomamma8]

TAM, do you believe that I thought/think that claiming pairs benefits scum?

wtf is this question, are you asking him what he believes you think?

Yes.

TAM, generally, I don't think that asking for a lover claim is a scumtell. Anyone who hasn't thought about the setup match may come up with this idea, thinking that it will be useful. But Vig is scum for other reasons, so you're most likely correct that it's coming from scum again.

I'm confused about those "other reasons".

This was so stupid that I have no doubts that it came from town

Quote is irrelevant, but what do you think about Mutley around this area? He latched onto you pretty fucking hard.

This assumes that Voodoo indeed found the playerlist good. Who is to say that the whole sentence wasn't just made up by scum-Voodoo and she didn't really mean any of it?

I think the thought process is clear enough at this point.

Mara stop being paranoid, ffs. Scum are not stupid to quickhammer.

Do you think this paranoia is real or fake?

I remember you said that you were scumreading VV, what made him town now?

That's what the "easy lynch" bit was meant to convey.

a) Why Voodoo's statement is unlikely to come from scum
b) Why you changed your townread on Voodoo to a scumread
c) What are your reasons for scumreading me other than your obvious disliking me as a person

a) This has been explained.
b) This could be answered, probably.
c) Your question is poorly worded and a misrepresentation of reasons.

[Nachomamma8]

You started looking very town near the end of your ISO, but I don't like how you aren't working with any reads. What are you thinking right now?

[Nachomamma8]

VV is scum in THIS set up, because out of a sample size of 3 games... 2 for sure, and one possibly (I'll have to check that) The first person to suggest early name claim has been scum.

This is the Gambler's Fallacy, which isn't doing TOO much for convincing me.

I'm going to be making it an official tell instead of a personal tell.

This seemed like a strong towntell for you, but it also seemed like you have more the desire to prove your tell correct or false than actually believing VV is scum. A case is a multitude of things, not just one tell.

[Nachomamma8]

No clue. It kind of felt townish but he could just be buddying me.

Is he?

Real

Why?

How can I misrep reasons when there were none given?

By adding reasons of your own.

[Nachomamma8]

Yes.

[Nachomamma8]

That he's OMGUSing because you're biting into him too hard and he's flailing.
Then you analyze whether it's townflail or scumflail.

[Nachomamma8]

(rather than them trying to pair scummy scum with townish scum later to make it harder to choose a scumpair)

I'm actually not afraid of this at all.

Thank you for that post, mujie.

Unvote: enomis

Vote: mujie

I liked your earlier aggression. Where did THIS go?

I like hearing myself speak (and type, because keyboards turn me on), so I'm going to try to guess at a possible answer: Suggesting a claim strategy is scummy because it's a way for scum to appear useful without harming their win condition (if they truly believe their claim strategy is correct, they would think someone else would suggest it anyway). If that's what you think of it, how do you feel about the context of my suggestion within my post? Surely you wouldn't be calling something scummy in a vacuum, so how does the post containing my suggestion influence your view of the suggestion?

This got horribly convoluted near the end and I wasn't sure what I was reading. Are you asking him to read your post in a way like he hadn't seen those past two games, or...?

Using "townie" to mean "player in the game" isn't unusual. I doubt it's a scum slip.

It's not unusual, but I did a little digging and Voodoo Lady uses "townie" to refer to town-aligned players in her first game and did not use it in any other context (=20546&user_select[]=0&user_select[]=0&user_sort=Go]link). What do you think of that?

think Mara is scum for her recent series of posts (unrelated to the L-x thing).

And here I thought the L-x point was pretty interesting. What did you find?

I don't remember exactly when I posted that, but it was whenever I no longer felt like it would be useful to have him think it was a serious vote.

This was an honest response to a shitty question.

I thought and think that he's scum. That is my reason for voting him.

That's a nice reason, I bet you'll get lots of support.
It's funny that you were able to make a detailed case on Marangal yet you cannot give a single reason for the person you're voting.

You voted me without a reason. I extended the same honor~

Here are reasons you were looking for, Wisdom.

Who says that there's no answer that might affect my read?
If you just choose to ignore all of my questions how do you expect me to change my read?

...but I did answer the question you're referring to. Like, a legit straight answer. But I think you're scum anyway, so I figure you'll change your read on me if and when you need to. If I'm wrong about you being scum, you'll change your read on me if and when I seem townish to you, which I can do without answering questions that I feel get us nowhere.

This seemed very genuine.

That was PoE. I have a notepad document up with (slightly) more information, but considering it has me paired off with my lover, I'm not posting it.

I will never post or share my personal notes ever. I suggest you do the same.

[Nachomamma8]

4. Ms Marangal
5. Voodoo Lady
6. absta101
12. mujie

^current scumspects

[Nachomamma8]

but you guys say there are statistics that prove me wrong, I guess I learn this with more experience.

There aren't. I'm just decently confident that we're going to win regardless of whether we claim or not, and I sort of want to form my reads without the crutch of lovers first.

[Nachomamma8]

oh, sweet jesus.

did you guys really name your account macmollie?

TAM, VV is not Iso. He is nothing like Iso, do not compare him to Iso.

Nacho, what of Vigi's reaction reads Flailing town over flailing scum?

Vigi... You made a case on me, a case which is essentially OMGUS, yet you OMGUS vote Wisdom? why?

how about you actually talk to me instead of this crap

[Nachomamma8]

don't really like Voodoo Lady, Absta, Marangal

This is going to cause some problems, I can feel it

It's going to cause some major problems because I'm going to lynch the hell out of Voodoo Lady and you're going to like it.

I am to lynch the crap out of eno person. like I was supposed to get this "thing" and he implied it would be "obvious" well I am missing it cos he isn't asking me a question of "do you think this is scummy" he is asking what I would have said instead.

if eno flips scum then this will prove a point that I have been trying to make with nacho for a long time

????

Vote: Voodoo Lady

[Nachomamma8]

mara and nacho are you seeing this?

yes and it's hilarious

[Nachomamma8]

I have a bad feeling about Voodoo too, even though I disagree that her first post means anything either way. It's not likely that scum would slip like that in their first posts.

Cautious nature is more playstyle than alignment, I think

I'm curious why you're parking your vote on someone who you just have bad feelings about rather than someone you are actively arguing with and insinuating is scum.

I'm curious why you're subtly trying to shift Wisdom's vote to macmollie while you aren't voting them yourself, are you?
What are your reads?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't think Macmollie is scum. I'm just surprised he's voting for me instead of her, given the volatility of their arguments and that he thinks we're buddies.

I'm personally sort of side-eyeing TAM right now, actually.

cool so
what are your read(s)? you have TAM as sort of kind of leaning scum and macmollie's town? that's it?

[Nachomamma8]

Core claiming lovers with him is more icing on the cake than anything.

Why?

Initially I was sort of wary about Absta because he did that thing where he asked questions to practically everybody and because the "too scummy to be scum" argument was terrible. I'm willing to chalk this up to inexperience, though. Wish he'd post more reads.

Why are you willing to chalk it up to inexperience? He's not that inexperienced at all.

Right now I think TAM and Core are part of the scumteam, and I'm side-eyeing Enomis and Mujie.

Why aren't you voting one of TAM and Core then?

[Nachomamma8]

On its own, claiming your buddy like that isn't indicative of alignment. But if I think TAM is scum, his partner making a movement that could potentially be scum-motivated is more significant.

Why was it scum-motivated?

Whoops. Read his join date as March 17, 2013 by accident and thought he was new here.

It's an argument I'd expect new players to make moreso than old ones is what I'm getting at here.

I caught that, but I was wondering how the revelation that he wasn't inexperienced changed your view of him.

I was getting to that.

Was there a reason you didn't do it before?

[Nachomamma8]

Player under suspicion claims with unsuspected partner to make themselves appear less scummy? Like I said-- it's a thing I've seen scum do before in Polygamist games.

He wasn't really under suspicion at that point. And yeah, it is a thing other scum have done, but... that's TAM's reasoning with his push on VV.

Skews my view of him a tiny bit more towards the scum end of the spectrum. Still null on him; would like to hear his reads.

Why does it skew it just a tiny bit towards the scum end?

[Nachomamma8]

kill her please

[Nachomamma8]

Vote me then.

[Nachomamma8]

Because your other suspicions are crap.

[Nachomamma8]

"But pushing for a hasty lynch is not pro-town"
Then what was that about?

[Nachomamma8]

Are you trying to push me towards making a flimsy OMGUS vote? Don't be ridiculous. I vote for who I suspect, and I don't suspect you.

AND WHAT IS THIS
WHY WOULD I BE TRYING TO PUSH YOU INTO MAKING A FLIMSY OMGUS VOTE IF I WERE TOWN???

[Nachomamma8]

I am saying that it is hardly to our benefit to have a lynch a week and a half before the deadline.

ok maybe but I don't think that it helps to wait until deadline if we're just going to lynch you anyways

I wasn't saying you were. (Trying to push me into a flimsy OMGUS vote, I mean.) I was asking if you were, because otherwise I couldn't think of any other reason you'd outright ask me to vote for you.

question remains.

[Nachomamma8]

Mollie, VL isn't scum and I can say that with 100% certainty

Do you know why mastin2 is mastin2 and not Mastin?

[Nachomamma8]

Pedit: no.

because he claimed a 100% townread on someone who wasn't town
if you're gonna say shit like that you better have some good things to back that up

[Nachomamma8]

Do you know why I'm mutleyddmc and not mastin4?

No.

[Nachomamma8]

Voodoo being scum? you're beyond wrong there

though, if the two of us are scum, who make up the other pair Wisdom?

so you're claiming to be VL's lover
even though she could've done that herself?

[Nachomamma8]

What makes me and mollie plausible partners? What makes Mollie and VL plausible partners?

I liked it more when VL defended herself.

[Nachomamma8]

I didn't claim anything yet Nacho.

Are you a lover with VL? Yes or no?

[Nachomamma8]

hey marangal

[Nachomamma8]

marangal, your line of questioning is stupid as fuck please stop.
i wouldn't say these things if I didn't love you.

[Nachomamma8]

6. absta101
8. enomis
11. Vigilante Ventriloquist
12. mujie

[Nachomamma8]

:/

Wisdom, any Pairing you make with Voodoo, you're going to have to make with me. Why are you avoiding the macmollie/Mara pair reasoning?

because it's not a good question to ask wisdom, mara.
i see where you are coming from. trust me, I do.
but it's still a bad question. please, please, please stop.
please.
for me.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: absta101

let's quicklynch him instead

[Nachomamma8]

giving mara space and letting mollie read her.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho how did VV make your scumlist? I remember you calling him town

If I assume Marangal and VL town, me and my lover town as well as you and who is probably your lover town, we're left with that list.

[Nachomamma8]

So I could see how the scumteam looked.

[Nachomamma8]

yeah because that's his meta and I've already read him as town
I figure absta is scum regardless of whether you're scum with him or if you're town.
So if you're reading me as town, then you better start working with me.

If not... you might as well go for the big fish, girlie.

[Nachomamma8]

I never said I was reading you as town.

Then vote me.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho when youre done being silly vote Voodoo again

this isn't a temporary thing, wisdom.
marangal isn't this stubborn as scum.

[Nachomamma8]

She has no choice when we're about to lynch her buddy and it's insta-lose
She has to get stubborn and try and shift things around
Besides she has not only played this setup before as scum, but she just played against both of us as scum in popcorn. It's natural she will try even harder to go against her meta.

You think that she improved this much over one game?

[Nachomamma8]

scum theatre

honestly this just looks like clownfuck theatre to me

[Nachomamma8]

just clownfuckery wherever i read

[Nachomamma8]

Wisdom, do you agree with me that Mara would be setting herself up to claim with a fake lover partner from the beginning of the game?

[Nachomamma8]

scum theatre

honestly this just looks like clownfuck theatre to me

between wisdom and vv? cos that is what I was referring to

wisdom and marangal is what i'm referring to
I don't think that wisdom is scum

[Nachomamma8]

Voodoo is town, I think TAM is town, you're town, Nacho might be town, Absta is town Vigi might be scum and Mutt might be too.

Right here, she's setting up a lover claim with either: Voodoo or absta.
I'll bet a shiny penny that if she were scum, she would not limit her opportunity to solely one scumpartner. Meaning that if one of them is scum with her, they both are. Do you follow my reasoning here?

[Nachomamma8]

he said in the popcorn game he does not look for association tells he relies on individual tells. did you read that part of the game or because you were gone you skimmed

it's a far different situation in this specific setup because associative tells are everywhere

[Nachomamma8]

and i'm sorry for being a little assholeish right now but I feel like a bunch of townies are flailing at each other in the center of the stage when day 1 is really about eliminating as many possibilities as possible. we're not doing that. wisdom is starting to tunnel beyond all realistic pushes, marangal is on crazy paranoid crazy defensive land, and you're hammering on VV who I currently think is very likely scum but who is also who we just got done with. you're also accusing him and wisdom of being partners in their little scum theatre but I feel like that is definitely not the case considering wisdom and I were right there pushing together and we ended up backing off at the same time.

so please don't get mad at me without reaching out first
please

[Nachomamma8]

She's calling 5 people town, why you limit it to specifically Voodoo and absta?
No Im not following you

if she's gonna defend her lover, her lover isn't someone who "might be town". You're not her lover because you were questioning her reads in a suspicious way and that sort of distancing is useless. That leaves Voodoo and absta.

Wisdom, you think that she would immediately limit her options like that and NOT go for an early claim?

[Nachomamma8]

There's no use tying yourself down to one person if you're not planning on claiming it immediately, is there?

[Nachomamma8]

so your read on absta has to do more with me than it does with him?

no

[Nachomamma8]

awesome.
so who is the other pair?

[Nachomamma8]

mollie and someone else
mujie possibly

no, look for a pair.
as a hint, start in the four that I named; find an obvious crumb between two players in that entire group of 4.

[Nachomamma8]

If we're supposed to determine pairs why don't we just claim? What you're asking is stupid

it's much better this way, believe me

[Nachomamma8]

if you know one of the benefits waiting to claim lovers has for town, it's that scum occasionally gamble and don't hash out their lovers
look again in that beautiful block of 4

[Nachomamma8]

VOTE: Voodoo
For now.

I'll look into Mara and Mutley next.

oh fuck no

[Nachomamma8]

This seems forced. You're "okay" with being lynched as town even though we only have 2 lynches?

This is the only thing in your wall that so much suggests that VL is scum.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't like your block of four nacho, Absta and Vigiven don't make sense as partners. I don't see scum attacking each other the way the two of them did early on in the game, not when their lives are linked to each other

that's why i lost my last polygamist game
to shotty and gandalf

[Nachomamma8]

My absta town-read mainly had to do with my Nacho-scum read. I couldn't see Nachoscum with Abstascum when Nacho was pushing to quick lynch him

are you fucking kidding me

[Nachomamma8]

and the IIoA in her ISO.

what is something valuable you have in your ISO? I see nothing and that was just a shitty buzzword.

Despite the obv non-associations between me and mollie, you think that we are scum
despite the obv. non association between me and mutters, you think that he could make the fourth addition to our team

Bad reasons again.

it was a statement of fact.

Why did you state it?

I no longer remember exactly what I was looking at that made me think he was scum.

And you're completely fine with this?

I had the impression Nachopappa was a hydra with Nacho inside
no?

None of my hydras have the word Nacho in them because that's horribly unoriginal.

NACHO I LOVED YOUR CIRCLE JERKING IN THAT LAST GAME <3 WAS TOTALLY DIGGIN IT MAN

<3
I love you, Pappa.

[Nachomamma8]

absta101
enomis
Wisdom
Vigi

So you took my block and swapped out mujie for Wisdom? Why?

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Vigilante Ventriloquist

[Nachomamma8]

let's massclaim.
it's already obvious enough as it is.

[Nachomamma8]

First we'll wait for everyone to agree that we should mass claim.
And secondly you don't get to decide who claims first.

does it really matter who goes first?

[Nachomamma8]

ok well can we
you know
start massclaiming?

[Nachomamma8]

I find one strong scumread, I lynch it, town wins

unless it's not scum

[Nachomamma8]

Mollie and I are lovers. Mutley, go.

[Nachomamma8]

Mollie and I are lovers. Mutley, go.

and I'm a third wheel

you're a wanted third wheel, though
if we were dealing like someone like wisdom, things might be different
but it's you and you are special

[Nachomamma8]

Mollie and I are lovers. Mutley, go.

She promised me I could join in. I want a guess from you first nacho on mine

you didn't guess mine i don't guess yours

[Nachomamma8]

god i love wikipedia sometimes
my literal thought was "hopefully wikipedia has a nice creepy picture for menage a trois"
yup.

[Nachomamma8]

Mollie and I are lovers. Mutley, go.

She promised me I could join in. I want a guess from you first nacho on mine

enomis is my final guess if you're going to stall this long
hurry up

[Nachomamma8]

nachopappa
(sorry babe)

[Nachomamma8]

hmmmmmmm.
wisdom?

[Nachomamma8]

1. macmollieViomi
2. Nachomamma8

6. absta101
3. Wisdom

4. Ms Marangal
5. Voodoo Lady

7. The Acting Method
9. Core_H86

10. Mutleyddmc
11. Vigilante Ventriloquist

12. GuyInFreezer mujie
8. Nachopappaenomis

[Nachomamma8]

Hi mollie.

Tell me, though. Enomis. What would you have said if you were in her position instead of "fellow townies"?

What's the point of you asking me this? Probably something like other people?

...oh, I get it. You're arguing that me referring to the collective twelve players as the town constitutes a scumslip, right? I've heard this argument used before to suggest I was scum. And this is how I replied:

We're using "town" here not to refer to innocents but as a way to refer to the collective opinion of you, me, and the other seven players here. I really, really, really hope you aren't going to argue that referring to the collective group as "the town" is a scumtell. (Spoiler alert: it isn't.)

In some contexts, I use the words town, townies, townsperson(s), etc. to refer to unspecified player(s) in the game regardless of their alignment(s). If this is the entirety of your case on me, it's a pretty lame case.

Could you refer me to games(post specifically) where you use townies as a unspecified player but not someone who is town?

[Nachomamma8]

Eno and Mujie sound off.

that's EXACTLY what I was thinking.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: GuyInFreezer

[Nachomamma8]

i'd prefer ms m still

ms m would be where i would start if gif flipped town
i might not mind starting there

[Nachomamma8]

Because GIF has just as much votes as both me and Voodoo. If we all die together, might as well vote the one who would be the closest to being lynched

Vote: Ms Marangal

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Voodoo Lady

[Nachomamma8]

TAM/Core
Mara/TNL

call me crazy
but this seems like a likely partnership

[Nachomamma8]

it doesn't matter much, but it still matters you tunnely fuck

[Nachomamma8]

You're crazy Nacho

OH YOU KNOW WHY VOODOO AND ME ARE SCUM TOGETHER
BUT YOU DON'T KNOW VOODOO ME MOLLIE
DO YA DO YA

[Nachomamma8]

OH YOU GONNA VOTE VOODOO
IM GONNA CHAINSAW THE FUCK OUT OF HER AND TRY TO GET YOU LYNCHED
BECAUSE IM HER LOVER
NOT HER SCUMBUDDY

[Nachomamma8]

WISDOM
WHY DON'T YOU VOTE GIF HUH
I KNOW YOU SUSPECT ME BUT YOU SUSPECT GIF OF BEING MY PARTNER SO WHY DON'T YOU LYNCH HIM HUH

[Nachomamma8]

Hey, wisdom. when I flip town, who are you going to go after tomorrow? you need to plan this shit ahead if you want to go through for the win.

we're going to lynch GiF

[Nachomamma8]

and no one is going to bitch
no one is going to moan
no one is going to complain

[Nachomamma8]

BUT HE DOESN'T KNOW ALL 4 OF YOU ARE SCUM
YOU ARE HIS PRIMARY SCUMREAD
AND GIF IS A SECONDARY SCUMREAD

[Nachomamma8]

but let's be honest
what has tam done? tunneled the fuck out of vigven for claiming pairs
and then his partner claims his lover
and tam is like "OHHH YOU JUST IMPROVED THE SCUM'S CHANCES OF WINNING"
and then continues tunneling

TAM's partner sees him advocating the hell out of no claims
SEES THIS
is like "I think we should claim"
listens to no arguments to the contrary, claims anyways
and then is like "oh. my bad. i guess i can learn this with more experience"

[Nachomamma8]

TAM was our winning mislynch last game, if he's winning mislynch this game I'll seriously be pissed

is he town

[Nachomamma8]

and can you please address the points i've brought up against you. they are not eloquent but they are problems.

[Nachomamma8]

because voodoo has more votes and they are lovers.

[Nachomamma8]

MARANGAL

[Nachomamma8]

I don't know how to answer your points, I already stated that I think Wisdom is going to vote me over GIF because he's his buddy and then, tomorrow he's going to have to try and find another mislynch to push. Likely TAM

..............

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: GiF

[Nachomamma8]

Hey, wisdom. when I flip town, who are you going to go after tomorrow? you need to plan this shit ahead if you want to go through for the win.

we're going to lynch GiF

and no one is going to bitch
no one is going to moan
no one is going to complain

[Nachomamma8]

Wisdom, take a step back.

[Nachomamma8]

Wisdom, take a step back.

[Nachomamma8]

I want you to step away from the thread and calm down. You aren't helping at the moment.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm here nacho let's talk.

OK, let's talk.

[Nachomamma8]

You think that was stupid reading so far i dont think anyone understands this has a special setup at all

Yes this is a special set up. WHICH IS WHY I'VE BEEN SAYING VV IS SCUM!!!!

Congrats now you just gave scum a fucking advantage by pair claiming.

VV is scum in THIS set up, because out of a sample size of 3 games... 2 for sure, and one possibly (I'll have to check that) The first person to suggest early name claim has been scum.

And please try VV, since I'm damn well sure you are scum.

Here's TAM yelling at Core.

[Nachomamma8]

Nevermind, can't talk now.

[Nachomamma8]

macmollie, my lovelies.
are either of you around?

[Nachomamma8]

cool, then i'll break this game next.

[Nachomamma8]

molllllllie
I'm here, reading up.

[Nachomamma8]

1. macmollieViomi
2. Nachomamma8

6. absta101
3. Wisdom

4. Ms Marangal
5. Voodoo Lady

7. The Acting Method
9. Core_H86

10. Mutleyddmc
11. Vigilante Ventriloquist
My two strongest townreads atm are Mutley and Wisdom.
I always think absta is scum even when he's not, so the discrepancy there doesn't surprise me. I also started reading VV as town until she fell off, so that discrepancy doesn't surprise me although I'm just a *tiny* bit paranoid on Mutley. So I think that my first priority will be sorting out those two pairs for sure.
12. GuyInFreezer mujie
8. Nachopappaenomis

[Nachomamma8]

1. macmollieViomi
2. Nachomamma8

6. absta101
3. Wisdom

4. Ms Marangal
5. Voodoo Lady

7. The Acting Method
9. Core_H86

10. Mutleyddmc
11. Vigilante Ventriloquist

12. GuyInFreezer mujie
8. Nachopappaenomis

My two strongest townreads atm are Mutley and Wisdom.
I always think absta is scum even when he's not, so the discrepancy there doesn't surprise me. I also started reading VV as town until she fell off, so that discrepancy doesn't surprise me although I'm just a *tiny* bit paranoid on Mutley. So I think that my first priority will be sorting out those two pairs for sure.

fucked that up

[Nachomamma8]

what do you want to do about mutters and vv.

I find myself agreeing with some of what vv has said

I'm doing the easy read first, then I'm going to do a double ISO of VV and Mutt. I'm working on one with Wisdom and absta as we speak.

[Nachomamma8]

Oh god.
More votes on Vig, something tells me this game will end today.

The overarrogance feels off; normally when Wisdom gets arrogant it's a quiet sort of arrogance that doesn't have such fake setups as "something tells me the game will end today".

TAM, Marangal stated that "votes have to stop because they scare her". Others' votes. Not her own vote. You answered justifying why she didn't RVS. It's totally different.

I agree with this.

Holy fuck.
Did you say that scum would never post what Voodoo posted or not?

Wisdom's also a little more aggravated than I'm used to him being, which is a tiny bit strange but not actually that big of a deal.

Dude there's no advantage for the town in claiming. It gives the advantage to SCUM knowing what the pairs are so that they can know who they can lynch easier.
For fucks sake, think before acting.

I don't think the choice is always that obvious.

I want to know the claims so I can know what unfortunate soul is attached to VV

Really? That's your reason? And why exactly can't you wait until VV is at L-1 and he claims?

That was weird as fuck, yeah. Means Core-VV aren't likely buddies though, which is helpful.

Think of the scenario that you're a very obvtown player paired with someone who acts scummy.
Scum try to push your lover's lynch until he claims at L-1 that you're his lover.
The town knows that you're obvtown so they don't lynch them and those that pushed him are scrutinized.

Compare that to scum knowing beforehand that said player is paired with you. They won't push him at all. They will go for pairs that are lynchable.

But the way that Wisdom responded to this was genuine, and Core completely ignored it. I don't think they are partners together either.

Okay, your constant dodging of Wisdom's question is terrible and vote worthy.

This does seriously seem like something one lover would say about the other.

@TAM - Does your partner having the same views as VV affect your read on him?

And this is a good fucking question.

I thought and think that he's scum. That is my reason for voting him.

That's a nice reason, I bet you'll get lots of support.
It's funny that you were able to make a detailed case on Marangal yet you cannot give a single reason for the person you're voting.

The whole angle of "fuck you, you have nothing" seems more likely to be coming from scum than town in this setup, considering something awkwardly worded like that could turn plenty of people against him.

I thought and think that he's scum. That is my reason for voting him.

You also "think" Marangal is scum. Your vote on Wisdom is only based on gut.
You're just showing everyone that you don't really believe in your case on Marangal.

Continued subtle defense of wisdom shows absta is buddying up to him, and this is happening in a way that is organic and not really pre-setup.

Btw you might want to explain why Voodoo is scum too if you don't believe that was a scumslip. You were calling her town, for a bad reason too, what changed that?

Good question.

UNVOTE:
for now. VV just seems too suicidal to be scum.

And I liked absta backing off before Wisdom did.

I wasn't trying to be suicidal. I don't even feel like I'm in danger yet. Should I?

You're way to scummy to be scum if that makes sense. You keep making yourself look worse and it seems like you don't care at all. This suggests you aren't scum.

You need to seriously change your playstyle if you're town.

This is one of those things town are usually more likely to say.

You're way to scummy to be scum if that makes sense. You keep making yourself look worse and it seems like you don't care at all. This suggests you aren't scum.

This does.
Many times, frustrated scum, especially those that think that they are being accused for the wrong reasons, will make things harder for themselves due to the pressure. It all boils down to how good they are as scum. Assuming that this makes them town is not logical.

Then Wisdom attempts to sell absta on his read still. If this is scum theatre, I will be VERY impressed.

Well he gave no reasons and then starting spamming that he doesn't like me and that I'm a jerk. And then he refused to give reasons again. What am I to assume?

I liked the frustration behind this post. It shows that he was trying to dig more information out of VV, but wasn't able to because VV was being so damn stubborn.

Scum will most likely slip when they're being pressured, not when they're free to type whatever they want at the beginning of the game.
Yes, it's null and I wouldn't lynch someone just because of that.

yeah I liked this post too

mollie you have this wrong.
Listen to me.
In the previous page, enomis was arguing with me whether Voodoo slipped or not.
Then mujie came and asked enomis how he would say it if he was in her place.

I'm picking up on tiny little Wisdom tells that show him getting more and more frustrated; that means the progression is genuine and not an act. Good.

I have no clue who to vote, mollie, that's why
Although I'll prolly vote Voodoo, her last posts had no scumhunting at all other than implying than Core/TAM could be doing the same she did as scum in another game. And she was asking what we think, not stating it.

liked this

Regarding my "too scum to be scum" statement. I know that argument is a dumb one but I stand by it considering VV's experience. VV has played scum around 10-15 times, I highly doubt her scum game would be this shit. If someone has played with VV and can confirm that her scum game is shit I'll put my vote back on her of course.

I'm going to look into Vodo now.
Are the people who are voting her for the first post she made not taking into account that it was an RVS vote?

Bringing up something that everyone else forgot about is far more indicative of town than scum, I think. Especially since Wisdom called him out on it? +++ townpoints.

mollie I'm starting to get annoyed by your failing to read things.
VV stated that he had 10-15 scum games in response to absta's question:

tiny tick of annoyance again, hyper-focusing on lover content is v good, v good

again, this is shit you know about me that you are pretending otherwise is really freaking me out!

btw dont give me this shit after you stated in the other game that you mindfuck people by playing to your town meta

wisdom paranoia
A+ quality

Well could be wrong about mollie, but I'm sure as hell not wrong about Voodoo

this sort of posturing shoots the shit out of his credibility and gives the reins to me/mollie tomorrow as scum
it's a horrible move as scum, but it's a wisdom move as town

Look, i'm voting mara now. Everyone can be happy. No quicklynch will happen because i'm not here...

I liked this EVERYONE STOP FREAKING THE FUCK OUT from absta.

I don't think either of these 2 gave reads before replacing out

Considering both of em replaced out because they couldn't keep up, it would be unreal if they had reads

ummm
something that's sitting at the back of my mind is that scumplayers who were active early (TAM and Core), buddied up to each other, pulled the mafia lover gambit early to be an obvtown pair
and left their lurkier twins in the dust

I don't think it really does, Nacho, but I am not going to do anything Mara says

this doesn't seem to have much scum motivation and is just setting up a bit too hard for that inevitable fall

VV and Mutley, why the hell did you hammer right when GIF was starting to give reads?
We were waiting for the whole damn game to get reads out of him and his lover
Why the fuck did you choose THEN to hammer?

genuine frustration

I think Wisdom and absta are town as fuck and my paranoia on them is pretty much dispelled. With scum Wisdom, I would be getting paranoid twitches by now but I'm just not.

[Nachomamma8]

i have played with scum wisdom before
i am looking to see if you're falling under a scumspell now

[Nachomamma8]

mollie grill the fuck out of them i'm having a battle with my trackpad atm and it's winning hardcore

[Nachomamma8]

Never played this setup before, but I think we should all claim our lovers to lock scum into pairings now (rather than them trying to pair scummy scum with townish scum later to make it harder to choose a scumpair). Any objections? Yes? No? No? :3

I don't think VV/Mut and TAM/Core are scum together, solely from the fight that came from this. I don't think it's a 4 man well coordinated scumtheatre if only because choosing to pair TAM/Core and Mutley/VV doesn't make too much sense at all unless by some strange miracle TAM isn't pulling core as much as he's supposed to and Mutley is somehow pulling VV.

Thank you for that post, mujie.

Unvote: enomis

Vote: mujie

And I would call VV/mut unlikely partners with enomis/mujie, if based only on this. It's an odd fucking move to RVS one scumpartner, then vote the other.

TAM, do you think it's beneficial to wait to claim?

I like that VV attempted to open up a discussion with TAM as opposed to deathtunneling off the bat.

Also, TAM is scum.

VV, where did this go?

Why are you standing in the way of that question?

I think that townies tend to care more about their questions than scum do, so the fact that he defended his question from Wisdom was a good sign.

I like hearing myself speak (and type, because keyboards turn me on), so I'm going to try to guess at a possible answer: Suggesting a claim strategy is scummy because it's a way for scum to appear useful without harming their win condition (if they truly believe their claim strategy is correct, they would think someone else would suggest it anyway). If that's what you think of it, how do you feel about the context of my suggestion within my post? Surely you wouldn't be calling something scummy in a vacuum, so how does the post containing my suggestion influence your view of the suggestion?

At first, I didn't like this because it was so fucking convoluted. But it doesn't seem like a scum strategy to try to move the argument ahead faster, especially when you already have a counter argument lined up for what you think they'll say.

so claim then mut

I'm actually your partner lolz

This is an exchange that I doubt is coming from partners and makes Core look like shit. It feels like he's hunting for Mutley's partner to see if he's going to be an easy mislynch or not.

Vote: Wisdom

The last few pages have made me much more sure of this than I can explain properly.

This sort of paranoia seems pretty town to me.

If I was scum in a game and I looked at the playerlist and thought "whoa, these are some good players!", then got to the game thread and had the chance to make the first post of the entire game, the fact that I thought the other players were likely to catch scum is not something I would want other people to know was on my mind - it would make me sound scared.

Something like "good playerlist" or "lots of strong players in this game" reads much differently, for example.

I thought this was a good point.

You have no idea, do you? Why did you ask why I found him scummy and not care about the other way around?

This was picking up on a lover connection and not really realizing it, I think.

Wisdom is a jerk. Doesn't make him scum though. Lots of people are jerks in fact. I'm one of the biggest. That isn't a scum tell

Now THIS seems like a lover interaction.

I wasn't trying to be suicidal. I don't even feel like I'm in danger yet. Should I?

I liked this response to being called too suicidal to be scum.

Who says that there's no answer that might affect my read?
If you just choose to ignore all of my questions how do you expect me to change my read?

...but I did answer the question you're referring to. Like, a legit straight answer. But I think you're scum anyway, so I figure you'll change your read on me if and when you need to. If I'm wrong about you being scum, you'll change your read on me if and when I seem townish to you, which I can do without answering questions that I feel get us nowhere.

This is also a townish response to being questioned too hard. "I'm ignoring you because this isn't getting us anywhere" is not a card scum typically pulls out.

What originally caused me to reconsider Voodoo Lady was a paranoid feeling I was getting about her (For lack of a better way of putting it, she felt "too nice" for what she was posting...that's not quite what I mean, but close enough for now). When I looked back, I also noticed that she posted a bunch (most of it game-related) without saying anything game-relevant.

At that point, I just decided I was probably wrong about her first post. *shrug* I second-guess myself a lot.

I thought this progression was pretty valid. I can see VV scumhunting with gut a lot, and this sort of "well, I found her town for this really early on but then the townread got stale and I started getting paranoid" makes sense.

That was PoE. I have a notepad document up with (slightly) more information, but considering it has me paired off with my lover, I'm not posting it.

This is the sort of thing that town can call them out on at any time and make them release notes. If VV was keeping fake notes, I think he would out them. If he wasn't, I don't think he'd make a post like this.

Macmollie gets a town read for liking my trolling.

Mutley usually gets a little serious when scum (from the game's I've read) since his town playstyle is so loose where it draws him a lot of fire. This felt like town Mutley.

Also, I meant to disengage myself from any and all emotion from this specific game, but somewhere along the lines I forgot I meant to do that.

It makes my avatar and location seem empty.

I like VigVen's emotional investment at times. I feel the type of investment VigVen has gotten in his reads comes more from a town mindset than a scum one, considering scum is more likely to get emotional in the defense while town gets emotional in the attack. This comment of trying to disengage himself reads town.

Town.

Why?

Hmmm the cautious nature suggest town to me. Could be wrong its only my intial thoughts

this sort of fencesitting is strange as fuck

I also contribute nothing as town too. So that makes no difference

I actually thought that Mutley had been contributing more than usual in this game when he says this. That's more of a towntell for him because contributing as town is more natural; usually you're aware of the work you put in when scum.

I'm bored shall we play a game of guess the partners?

I think this game is definitely a mutley towntell; at first I was paranoid that he was fishing for us to choose the partner that seems most likely to him, but the fact that he intentionally threw off the VV/him connection and all that makes it seem a lot more townish.

Because Absta is his "lover"

I wanted him to say it

Mutley picking on Wisdom for not hiding his lover well enough is consistent with the Mutley game and throwing us off the VV/Mutt connection.

No one will ever guess my partner until we claim

and this just isn't scum arrogance
this is mutley playing his game

VOTE: voodoo

this is mutley trollhammering, nothing to worry about

[Nachomamma8]

OK Mollie!

Vote: GiF

You're going to have to drag me off this one kicking and screaming.

[Nachomamma8]

i have a massively strong townread on wisdom
i have a townread on VV/Mutley
i have a not-partners read on TAM/VV on the off chance i'm wrong about mutley

[Nachomamma8]

Mutley usually gets a little serious when scum? I've never been scum???

Everything else you've read me to a tee

mollie if you don't think mutley is town after this post then i've lost you forever

[Nachomamma8]

Doesn't it feel good to be understood?

[Nachomamma8]

1-liner ISO report starts here

1)TAM: He spent his entire time calling VV scum (because of that one early massclaim suggestion) and mara town (didn't really posted a subsequent (i believe it's the right word to use here) reason why). What are your reads except for mara and VV?

2)Core: Suggested early massclaim as well. Oh wait. TAM didn't call him out on suggesting massclaim but called VV out of it? #80 is a post with town mindset, even though it's wrong. And then his head-on argument vs Wisdom, which looks town on his side. Regarding his #205 - you want to hear pinions about other ppl. How about giving out yours? Your ISO lacks reads.

To be continued

Wait tam and core is pair?
Interesting pair.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho it feels to me like you're reading everything pre-determined to label them towntells.
Like, for instance, post 9 means nothing; both were RVS votes with no meaning, it could easily be two buddies.
Or Mutley trying to hide his lover... It could easily be because he wanted to keep his options open; in fact I thought many times that he might be paired with enomis or mujie, and VV was the last thing I expected.

And even post 7.. if you think that VV, TAM and Core were mainly the ones talking about claiming (other than myself) with the rest of the town not really caring, it feels like it

could

be coordinated.
And TAM tunneling on VV for totally stupid reasons and doing basically nothing else all game is also something I don't like at all and could easily be fake.

don't tell me things that I find town that *could* be null, tell me things that I find town that are actually scummy

[Nachomamma8]

nacho what do you think about p27 again

i think that's mutley fucking with wisdom

[Nachomamma8]

And even post 7.. if you think that VV, TAM and Core were mainly the ones talking about claiming (other than myself) with the rest of the town not really caring, it feels like it could be coordinated.
And TAM tunneling on VV for totally stupid reasons and doing basically nothing else all game is also something I don't like at all and could easily be fake.

if TAM was going to tunnel on VV for the whole game for stupid reasons while his partner did exactly what he was accusing VV of doing, that means he was forcing Core and Mutley to lead the charge with mislynching. No.

[Nachomamma8]

Like, for instance, post 9 means nothing; both were RVS votes with no meaning, it could easily be two buddies.

but probably not.
and if so, why does that matter, considering who I'm lynching?

Or Mutley trying to hide his lover... It could easily be because he wanted to keep his options open; in fact I thought many times that he might be paired with enomis or mujie, and VV was the last thing I expected.

do you think he could be paired with Core/TAM?

[Nachomamma8]

Im telling you that you seem confbiased to read them town to me

generally that's a good thing coming from me

[Nachomamma8]

Claim late, not early. Its just like any normal game in a sense thatscum know who scum is but dont know cops docs etc. However in this case its pairs

He was agreeing with me in my argument with Core
Two scum pro-claim and two scum anti-claim
It makes sense to me

many people were agreeing with you
hence the whole us not claiming thing

[Nachomamma8]

and now YOU'RE afraid I'M too confirmation biased?

[Nachomamma8]

looks like we won
gg

[Nachomamma8]

Mutley was there during my argument with Core adding to what I was saying and calling Core dumb. He even said "he feels sorry for TAM"
The rest of the people who agreed with me weren't that sure/didn't have an adamant opinion about claiming (like you who said that "the mystery is good for a while")
If you think about it, that's the sort of thing scum would coordinate, stances to have on the lover claiming. While town would not care or even think of that before it was suggested.

http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/WhsHnFvgWecAJ

[Nachomamma8]

Wisdom, scum don't get that much time to coordinate. Core/TAM aren't going to be going "ok now we gotta coordinate this good. you two go for the lover claims, you two don't go for the lover claims. BUT INSTEAD OF CLAIMING LOVERS TOGETHER WE'LL CLAIM LOVERS AND EACH LOVER HAS A DIFFERENT POSITION AND I'LL TUNNEL ON YOU"... no. It's far more likely TAM said "ok I'm going to take a hard stance against claiming lovers and tunnel the first person to suggest it, Core you agree with that idea and 'out' me. Enomis and mujie are on their own."

[Nachomamma8]

Also this...
This is directed to Mutley, yet Mutley wasn't even the one to bring up that Core/TAM were pulling the same thing.
It looks like TAM just wants to continue arguing with Mutley about these things.
And the final line.. scumread just for that? It really looks fake.

He DOES because TAM arguing with mutley is much better than TAM arguing with you.
And yes, it does look fake. Do you know why? Because TAM is scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Or this
He points back to their 4-way exchange about lover claiming, reminding us that "two people" wanted it
Then he instantly talks about his partner out of nowhere. Why? Because subconsciously he was referring to his partners when he was talking about those 2 people.

this is a horrible point

[Nachomamma8]

molliiieeeee

[Nachomamma8]

It doesnt seem that unlikely to me, Nacho
TAM is experienced with this setup, you don't know what strategies he could have found for it
And if I recall you took a long time to confirm because you were on V/LA or something so they did have some time

a strategy where he organizes his scumteam really really well and teaches mutley to be town as fuck and VV to be decently town while setting up a lurker for death in LyLo while playing scummily as fuck in his own day play?

[Nachomamma8]

and where he tunnels the fuck out of his OWN SCUMPARTNER THAT IF HE DIES TAM LOSES when TAM honestly is not that good at playing scum?

[Nachomamma8]

OH HELL NO

VOTE: THE ACTING METHOD

[Nachomamma8]

wisdom
i want you to shut the fuck up with your crazy conspiracy theories
and search TAM's posts
then vote him

[Nachomamma8]

wisdom
hey wisdom
you're paranoid as hell
you think mutley/TAM is the team? whatever. you're wrong. vote tam.

[Nachomamma8]

mollie you know how often i ask you to trust me?
well
trust me. tam is scum. the lurker pair is scum. vote them with me. and we're going to sit on them until people realize that hey, they are scum.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm worried about a nacho wisdom pairing here.

mutley
don't you do this to me now

[Nachomamma8]

well at this point i honestly couldn't care
so

[Nachomamma8]

@Xeg: 6 to lynch, not 5.

@Nacho - Is GIF scum because he's not doing anything?

That's part of it but not all of it. He's also scum because Wisdom/you and Mutley/VV are town.

[Nachomamma8]

or I never got to talk to my partner pre game. I sent a message to him telling him my plan to claim because my only game of reference to the setup everyone claimed off the bat because it was agreed it was best for town. You think I have strategy??? you over estimate me thx

so tam knew you were gonna claim
yet still freaked out on you when you claimed?

[Nachomamma8]

No.

[Nachomamma8]

If TAM is scum, what about me frustrated him to the point of replacing out?

nothing. he doesn't have time, replaced out everywhere. the fact he decided to replace out of here in a big act is a huge fucking scumtell and why the hell isn't he dead yet.

[Nachomamma8]

Wait tam and core is pair?
Interesting pair.

guy......

do moar

Sorry I fell asleep after this.

What I meant to say here was that I had core as leaning town while I didn't about tAm.

and yet you are awake now and STILL doing nothing

why haven't you lynched TAM yet

I don't think the TAM-Core pair is scum. Mutley, if you're voting one of them (I think you are but I can't remember), can you unvote for now just in case? :3

i hate you so much right now please end the game

Well then mollie help me read vv and mutley. I can't read "odd behaviors" worth a shit.

hey mollie they're trying to get you to help them set up for a mislynch can you tell them to stop it so we can lynch them already???

I have core as town, but TAM, not town.

WHAT DOES THIS EVEN MEAN

[Nachomamma8]

Wait what?
He replaced out of everywhere, yet he made it look like the reason for the replacement in this game was the frustration?

SEARCH HIS POSTS

[Nachomamma8]

I'm completely fine with that. Without TAM's replace out dramatics, I never would've switched off GiF >.>

[Nachomamma8]

Hell no. But you played an excellent game, I thought. Your dramatics in the beginning sent up major red flags, but the rest of your play was decently solid; you didn't push people longer than was completely reasonable, and you did use your tunneling meta to your advantage and make Marangal melt down when normally mollie/I wouldn't lynch her. You carried absta despite his play, and while leaving the two lurkers alone was risky as fuck, it definitely paid off in the end. TAM business is a shame; it seemed to me like he was running out of time doing other things, and I couldn't imagine him taking a stupid potshot at VV for "ruining the game" when I thought VV played perfectly fine and that somehow ruining his commitments everywhere.

[Nachomamma8]

Of course I am. I would never lie on the Internet.

says the alt

[Nachomamma8]

NACHO GODDAMMIT YOU SAID TRUST TEST AND YOU LET ME FALL LIKE A TON OF BRICKS I NEVER WANT TO SPEAK TO YOU AGAIN EVAH

you fell the wrong way

[Nachomamma8]

No one in this game has played with VigVen

with playstyles of players in the game (The only person in this game that I've played with is nacho)

[Nachomamma8]

Nope. I have you pegged as alt and no matter what you say you're never going to change my mind.

[Nachomamma8]

Nope. I have you pegged as alt and no matter what you say you're never going to change my mind.

If I tell you that I'm actually you, will that change your mind?

no because i haven't played with nacho before and i don't lie in such weird ways

[Nachomamma8]

AND I WAS GOING TO LEAVE MY COMPUTER BUT NACHO WAS PRESSURING ME TO ANSWER HIM SO MY MELT DOWN WAS PARTIALLY HIS FAULT AS

then tell me you're leaving the computer and my response will be "ok"
if you're honest and transparent when you're getting frustrated, I will back off no matter how much I think you're scum
but if you leave me out to dry, then

[Nachomamma8]

fuckin alts and their alt humor

[Nachomamma8]

yeah if Mara had a mollie level meltdown than i would be more afraid of mara

[Nachomamma8]

oh god the shouty text