Open 505: Pick Your Poison (Game over)

[don_johnson]

here. got to work. back soon.

[don_johnson]

dammit fitz. you stole my thing.

[don_johnson]

because that would be L-1. we are barely on page 2.

[don_johnson]

I hate dealing with hydras.

vote: ferret

[don_johnson]

fitz: why not? slaandar's a good townie. more than happy to sheep them at this point.

[don_johnson]

slaan and I go way back.

[don_johnson]

Yeah he means how do you know Slandaar is town this game already?

maybe. but that would make the question itself one of the dumbest questions that anyone ever asked anyone else. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I have reason to believe Nacho's push on Nero was/is scum motivated.

do share.

vote: mastin

excessive smiley use. isn't that a scumtell?

[don_johnson]

And I'm seriously beginning to question why we even bother with the PyP. Pretty much ANY competent scumteam is going to go with the exact same combo, of IC-vig-tracker. There's the smaaaaall outside chance that one of them can be replaced by a cop, but seriously, no competent scumteam is EVER going to pick the jailkeeper.

^^ this is also weaksauce imo. jk is in the mix. they can easily interrupt the other limited power roles, so I don't see any reason to even argue that excluding jk is a sign of competence. further, including this absolutist statement could easily be a set-up to draw a townread from the jailkeep. just don't like this mastin character at all currently.

fitz: no follow up?

[don_johnson]

fitz: you asked me a question. I answered. there was no follow up. not a big deal. just something I noticed.

lordsybaby: quicklynches are anything but "mythical". I have seen it lots. L-1 on page 2 is just unwise. had I suspected him enough to want him lynched I would have voted. as it stands, there was plenty of pressure. my vote would have only served the purpose of actually putting us in danger of a quicklynch. nothing more.

in regards to jk, if you find them quickly they don't do shit. just my opinion. i'd rather have a jk mucking up the cops only shot at an investigation than hand a townie a gun with two bullets. again just my opinion. point in regards to mastin's post still stands. the comments seemed unnecessary. but we'll see.

[don_johnson]

no one told me anything. the post irked me. i guess you could meta it, but why the fuck would someone use so many smilies. if i was standing in a room with a guy that was smiling all the time i would find him suspicious as fuck. I explained more about that post. how's about you comment on current events?

[don_johnson]

lords: your attempt to paint my actions on page 2 as scummy are a bit forced. you have still not addressed what I commented about mastin's post. the fact he brought up the jk selection and made a statement about scumteam competency.

if I am understanding correctly, you would like me to be more reckless with my voting? you are criticizing me for "not" placing a player at L-1 on page 2, and then for not throwing out a vote somewhere else when none was really warranted. you are trying to play it off like L-1 on page 2 is an OK thing, when in fact, it is not. relying on nero to unvote himself is kind of stupid. relying on other players to "not" lynch someone on page 2 is reckless. throwing a vote somewhere "just to throw out a vote" is an unnecessary action. do we do it, yes. do we have to? no. but whatevz.

[don_johnson]

also, my vote was on ferret at the time you wanted me to put someone to L-1. and please tell me how 2 posts regarding my feelings on the jk option count as "obsessing" when it is a topic of conversation.

[don_johnson]

hyposcum team picks jk. hyposcummastin says "no scumteam would EVER pick jk." hypojk reads mastin as town. its not much, but buried under all those smilies it kind of stuck out to me. can't really explain it any better than that.

[don_johnson]

lordsy: put someone to L-1 and see what happens. I have been in 89 games. funny thing is that a player has to be online in order to unvote. you have no guarantee that a player will be in that position. your argument is this:

IT IS OKAY TO PUT A PLAYER TO L-1 ON PAGE 2.

i'm not saying its terrible, just not advisable. again, had I thought nero worthy of a lynch I would have pushed him to L-1, but there was no need. thinking a player scummy and wanting them lynched are two different things. if you think only scum quickhammer the shit out of people, then you are ignorant or naïve. I will let you decide which of those two you want to be.

as for the ferret vote, it must have been before the reroll. either way, its kind of irrelevant.

the argument about smilies was a more a jest than anything. as for the jk statement, I am not arguing that jk is a good choice, I was arguing that I saw no reason for mastin to bring it up the way they did. in their responses, and maybe because they seem to see the same thing I am seeing, I am fine moving to the lord wagon.

lords has used words like "fear" and "obsessed" in their descriptions of my actions. I am always wary when a player uses descriptor words to embellish a negative view of another player. I find it more often than not to be a tool used by scum to make people look bad. an example:

player a: "what is your favorite color?"
player b: "blue. I really like blue. my girlfriends eyes are blue."
player a: "you seem obsessed with the color blue."

being "obsessed" carries a negative connotation. I see no reason to paint someone in a negative light when their answer is reasonable. to say that I was "obsessed" about the jk discussion, when it was simply a viable discussion which tied into why I found a particular post somewhat suspicious is an exaggeration. also, using the word "fear" to describe my feelings about a page 2 L-1 vote is kind of silly. I was not "afraid" of a quicklynch. I just think its a dumbass move to place an L-1 vote onto someone who is self-voting on page 2. its a quickhammer waiuting to happen. pointing that out is not "fearing" it, its common sense imo. but whatevz.

vote lordsy

[don_johnson]

Further: why do you think you were voting Ferret and what were your reasons for doing so?

those were explained. I was sheeping slaan at the time I believe.

I put down in the Hydra qt that I wanted to vote Nero but thought the wagon was growing too fast for him to be scum. Mhork saw what Don posted and went after that instead. It wasn't avoidance, something better just came up.

if you thought the wagon was growing too fast to be on scum, then why are you attacking me for slowing it down? your implication seems to be that scum was on the wagon. otherwise, why would it grow so fast? and if you are going to say that "well the wagon was town, it was that guy that didn't vote who must be scum." then how do you explain your belief that quicklynches are a figment of my imagination? I mean, if a bunch of townies can drum up a quickwagon, why can't townies then quicklynch? you seem to be contradicting your own logic here. try and explain it again.

[don_johnson]

I never said I "tried" to slow it down. but nice misrep there. by not voting, I DID slow it down. if you want to continue to argue that I should have put nero to L-1, you can argue with yourself. as for your pbpa:

Does that not imply that you were afraid to do so?

fear is an ugly word which paints a negative image. if I was fearful, I would have said something like "hey guys, slow down," or better yet "omg! this has to stop." I didn't. I simply pointed out that in reading the thread up to that point, nero seemed to be spinning himself to be a lead wagon. not L-1 worthy imo. not that soon.

You didn't try to slow it down, you actively showed support for it. How did you try to slow it down?

never said I "tried" to.

Did you condemn the wagon?

no.

Did you call him town?

no.

Did you say hey guys, look at how fast that wagon popped up, there's probably scum on it?

nope.

You basically said hey, I was going to vote there but Fitz stole my thing. Now you say you were actively trying to slow it down?

nope. never said that.

How often does lending support to a wagon slow it down?

supporting a wagon without a vote certainly doesn't speed a wagon up. in this case, by not voting I have the feeling I effectively slowed it down. drawing attention to the fact that the wagon was at L-2 in the process. when you think about it, its the kind of thing a townie would do.

I think that if Nero is town, scum would probably go for that wagon.

do you think nero is town? if scum would "go" for the wagon, why are you suspicious of the guy who "didn't" put it to L-1. is there scum on that wagon? or is it just me for not wanting to place an L-1 vote on page 2.

I'm saying you wanted to join the wagon, you were just being wary of joining it in the "scum slots" near the end of the wagon.

you obviously don't know me.

Now you appear to be saying that you never had any intention of joining it and you were "trying to slow it down" by offering up support for it.

um. nope. never said any of that. just didn't want to place an L-1 vote on page 2.

Quicklynches CAN occur they just normally don't, ESPECIALLY on page 2 of day 1, for all the reasons I listed earlier.

one of the reasons they don't occur might be because smart townies don't place L-1 votes on page 2.

BTW, the Smiley thing didn't sound like a joke either.

excessive smiley use. isn't that a scumtell?

^^ please note the question mark. I am asking for input. the post rubbed me the wrong way. first thing I noticed was the smiley usage. its not like I built a federal case here. I inquired about it. and some useful reactions and feedback seem to have occurred.

Guess how happy I am with my vote?

as happy as I am with mine?

[don_johnson]

mhork: not sure why you are ignoring my point on mastin and then accusing me of the same thing. if set-up speculation is scummy, then why wasn't it "scummy" coming from mastin? that was the original point that I made. I am only discussing set-up to defend my original point. and I don't think I have said ANYTHING that could be called rolefishing. if you want to quote something I have said that you see as rolefishing, please, put it in quotes and define it. otherwise you are just continuing to toss out negative terms without evidence.

as to the "slowing" of the wagon. we can argue semantics all day. the wagon got to L-2. it never got to L-1. you seem to be upset that I didn't put it to L-1. I simply pointed out the fact, that the wagon slowed after my post. I didn't say that was my intent. maybe it was just coincidence, but it happened none the less. making it fact. you thought the wagon was on a townie and so it must contain scum. but instead of attacking people who were on the wagon, you attacked me for not "hopping into the scum slots". which is just plain silly, because if L-1 and the hammer were "scum slots" then this game would always be really easy. for instance, whoever votes you next would be scum according to that logic.

I mean you can't have it both ways. you say quicklynches don't happen early in the game, and if they do then it is easy to find scum. according to your argument now, it doesn't matter what happens. had I voted and someone else hammered and nero flipped town, you are saying that I wouldn't be scum. but that doesn't line up with "if quicklynch occurs, scum is easy to find." I also didn't take the opportunity to place nero at L-1. L-1 is a scum slot according to your logic. so how am I scum if I didn't take the slot? honestly, you are presenting a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" case that honestly contradicts itself with its own logic.

I get what you are saying. but if agree with the early suspicion, the actions I took are the exact actions I should have taken. i.e. I had no reason to act differently. leaving myself room to jump on the wagon later if need be makes perfect sense given that I agreed with the wagon. not wanting to place an L-1 on page 2 makes perfect sense, because that's a stupid and reckless thing to do, and according to you doing that would have meant that I am scum. so whatevz. if you want me to address something else, just ask. but if you keep pelting me with this stupid argument, i'm going to keep defending myself.

nacho: talk to me. do you think lordsy is town? I can't tell here if their negativity is playstyle related.

[don_johnson]

@DJ...why did it matter whether you were voting ferret or not when Lords started criticizing you for not supporting the Nero wagon?

meh. I didn't think it mattered, part of lords argument was that I should have voted "someone" in my post following yours since i didn't vote nero. i misremembered when i laid down the ferret vote. i don't think its really relevant.

[don_johnson]

you're not offending me. just annoying me. you're not addressing anything I have brought up. you just keep pushing the same crappy hypocritical argument. I asked you for "evidence" and you provided none. so if you're not going to listen, i'm not going to talk.

if anyone wants me to pbpa lordsy's last post I will be happy to. but if no one cares then I see no reason to continue this back and forth.

venmar/peregrine: what's up? one lays a vote. one wants to sheep. toss out some reads, please.

ferret: speak.

[don_johnson]

that was quite painless. still waiting for the case on fitz. from anyone.

i don't think i am moving my vote off lords unless someone can really convince there is something better. unfortunately, i think we lost my last post which kind of laid things out, but i think its pretty obvious to everyone where i'm at.

an updated votecount would be helpful.

[don_johnson]

2 quick points:

slaan: nothing you say is really "clear" to many of us. if I remember correctly isn't English a second language for you? either way, your grammar/syntax is often times difficult to interpret.

also, explaining yur scumread to your suspect is perfectly acceptable imo, moreso in the early game. unless I am 100% convinced someone is scum, I will generally give them the benefit of the doubt to try and defend themselves. I have engaged with lords for quite a while. I am still not 100% convinced they are scum, but the only reason I am not speaking with them at this time is because they have shown no willingness to actually discuss anything. they just keep pushing the same tired points, which given the general consensus, are extremely debatable points and not all out scum tells. their unwillingness to discuss these things strengthens my scum read of them, but it certainly doesn't rule out the idea that they may be seriously misguided town, stubborn, or chronic tunnelers.

as for fitz, I don't see the scum motivation here. your defense of him calling you out on a misrep is basically, "it was too obvious to be scummy." which isn't really a good defense. the fact that you owned up to it gives you town points imo, so I don't really see a case on you either.

maybe you can flesh out the voodoo lady case, cause I have them as town at this point as well.

[don_johnson]

ven: I will look over the posts you have mentioned. as of now, I don't see how wall posting is scummy unless the content in it is scummy. so I don't know if I really see yours and slaan's point. but I will look and get back to you.

i'm with voodoo on this. I don't see wall posts as inherently scummy for whatever reason. and mastin needs to work a bit harder. for instance:

mastin: what about lords' recent posts are ringing town for you?

[don_johnson]

lords: if you want to know where I am getting the general consensus, just look at the vote count. i'm not going to go back and quote where other players have agreed with me. as far as you quoting me.. you have to be kidding. you haven't produced any sort of evidence to support your accusations against me. I have asked you to explain your "rolefishing" accusation. you refused, simply citing that I "brought up the jk thing" 5 times. you have yet to quote something I have said and explain how it is "rolefishing". in the meantime, you have failed to acknowledge two other instances of what could be construed as "rolefishing", in fact, you gave mastin a townread for asking you to claim while at L-2 under no threat of lynch and long before deadline. you just keep pushing that you think it was scummy for me to not place nero at L-1 on page 2. the only other accusations I have seen from you are "rolefishing", which you can't substantiate, and lack of content, which no one else seems to agree with. so whatevz.

I will address mastin and venmar tomorrow. out of time.

[don_johnson]

I like stubbs. agree with much. I think "misrep" is blown out of proportion, however, fitz' scumhunting seems a bit omgus.

WR: why sheep slaan? as far as I can tell, slaandar is no better than fitz in this argument. scum misrep town all the time. whether its intentional or not. I find it perfectly acceptable for someone to attack someone else for "misrep". slaan's defense rings of "too dumb to be scum", which imo, is a horrible defense. can you explain this to me? if I am not understanding this I would very much like to.

@Slandaar...misreps are cause for suspicion. Yours was blatantly obvious. The fact you call it unintentional is fine. But it doesn't take away from the fact you did it...AND I would not expect you as scum to say you did it intentionally. So you saying it was unintentional means absolutely nothing. The misrep is a reason to suspect you. Along with the rest of your, what I assume is intentional, crap play so far in this game. And your continued "it's true" mantra is stupid. Ask everyone in this game if they are scum and they'll all say no. Ask if they are telling the truth they'll all say yes. Duh. And go "amuse" yourself.

^^ this makes sense to me.

fitz: do you think mastinscum would have asked lordsscum for an outright claim so early?

venmar: I really don't see an issue with fitz' unvote.

nero and nacho: can you guys explain your votes?

lords: again. you are ignoring context of my posts. you are inconsistent in your suspicions. you completely ignore the fact that what mastin said had much more potential for rolefishing than anything that I said. but you are right. your iso is there. anyone interested can go read it. imo, its a big steaming pile of shit. but whatevz.

[don_johnson]

the more I read it, the more it looks like town on town.

town:
Voodoo Lady
ferretlover
StubbsKVM
don_johnson
Wide Right
havingfitz
Nachomamma8

null:
mastin2
PeregrineV
Slandaar
Venmar

lynch pool(possible scum):
Nero Cain*
Lords of Mhystery

this is kinda where i'm at right now. i want alords lynch. i'll settle for nero. they seem to have utterly disappeared since the early game. if anyone has a town read on them at this point, feel free to try and convince me. i'd like to hear more from the null crowd.

[don_johnson]

sorry, fitz and slaan may need their own category, of for all intents and purposes could be interchangeable. they both seem to be being stubborn as fuck about what looks like a non-issue to me.

And Fitz is just singing the same tune over and over while arguing this boring ass "do scum intentionally misrep town" thing, when the answer is very obviously, "if they can get away with it". There's no way Slandaar could have gotten away with it here.

imo, fitz just seems to be defending his original attack. not pushing a new one. I feel like fitz has been on the defense in this whole argument.

[don_johnson]

@Don-

Why is voodoo lady town?

good question. more by default atm, but I can't remember them doing anything but being reasonable and making good observations. however, memory does not always serve. i'll do a quick iso:

disagrees with massclaim. protown.

iso 3 offers a couple reads. although their interpretation of lords/dj leaves a bit to be desired. lords had my stance correctly, while voodoo defends me with "dj did not say that." but its kind of a meh moment for me. she does however correctly identify mastin's mention of the jk and its rolefishing possibilities. something which lords completely glossed over and has since ignored in their continued attack on me.

I agree stubbs is town.

agrees with the lords wagon. so yeah. although, quotes mastin who he was supposedly "side-eyeing". hm. this may be something to look at if lords were to flip town.

I guess the only issue I have so far is this:

I'm much more interested in Lords right now, as his towntell seems fabricated and he hasn't been properly questioned this game.

voodoo isn't "questioning" lords. he isn't engaging lords at all. so this:

Also, Mastin, the last part of 286 is really bad. "Hey, look at his posts and see if you can see something scummy." Don't make vague points against Fitz and then expect others to fill in the blanks for you.

looks silly. voodoo's points against lords were originally mildly vague(except for the op thing) and then he really hasn't followed up with it at all. so yeah.

voodoo: explain where you are at with lords please.

[don_johnson]

if anyone wants to explain "why" voodoo is scum, I am all ears, but all I see are "omgz, voodoo is scum" posts. a pbp would be nice. also, lordsy, feel free to pbp a case against me, cause I haven't seen that from you either.

voodoo: please explain the discrepancy with your posts which I pointed out. you said lords needed to be questioned, or at least implied that. how do you plan on following through? what questions do you have for them?

fitz: read on voodoo. read on nacho. please.

[don_johnson]

In the meantime, why don't you share with us why you believe she's town. I'd very much love to hear your town case. I'm betting it has something to do with voting me. You do have something better right?

already covered.

I guess I should thank you for addressing Voodoo. I'm curious about these phantom questions too. In fact, you can consider that one of my points against her.

um. no. you can't just steal my point against her. nice try though. show us

your

case.

[don_johnson]

4 pages into a reread and I don't see voodoo's case on lords. not reading the op is not scummy in the least and it looks pretty organic to me.

unvote

vote: voodoo lady

reread your iso twice now and can't find half the shit you're talking about. you have very little on lords but seem to be acting as if you've done this great amount of arguing for their scum case. you just haven't. you've been fringe the whole time. the "op" thing has nothing to do with why I think they were scummy, but seems to be the

only

thing you've particularly pushed. if you think lords is scum, a pbp might help, but you seem to be avoiding that type of presentation.

also, I hate to say it, but I see the case on fitz now too. his post with his unvote is pretty timely. but i'm less convinced there than with voodoo.

amended list:

town
penguin_alien
StubbsKVM
Nachomamma8

Null
PeregrineV
Lords of Mhystery
Slandaar
Venmar
Wide Right

lynch pool
Nero Cain
mastin2
havingfitz
Voodoo Lady

[don_johnson]

my reads solidify after flips and such. not really looking for your approval. just callin it like I see it. mafiascum is a dynamic game. players that look scummy are often town, and players who look town are often scum. day 1 offers very little in the way of a frame of reference. once you get a couple flips, you can then dig deeper into peoples motivations, choices, vote patterns, etc. read the last game I was in with penguin. I tunneled and sheeped with little reason into mylo and then blew up the game. hint: I am awesome.

[don_johnson]

um. you said lords hadn't been questioned properly. you have done nothing to address that.

I never said anything about Nero's "townslip". what I found scummy about nero was his page 1 freak out and self vote. and that not even so much. at that point in the game, people aren't being wholly serious. part of why I didn't want to put him at L-1 and part of why I couldn't take lords subsequent freak out seriously at that point. but whatevz.

[don_johnson]

wr: how else does one get a handle on a game if not by rereading?

fitz: order on the list is meaningless. you can move lords back into my lynch pool if it makes you feel better. as for vl, the post you quote above which you say is her "case" is this :

Hey look, Mastin posted three times in the half-hour it took to type all that up. I should probably learn to type faster.

I've got a better idea:

Lynch someone who helped contribute to the wagon, WITHOUT having laid a vote down. Someone, say, like...

Awesome. My other head decided to go get hammered. >.<

Anyway he was all up in arms to throw down a Nero Cain vote

, but instead, Ree, I got something else here, pal.

These guys!

QFT.

VOTE: Lords

you call this a "case"? this is nothing. this is voodoo quoting mastin. mastin's post isn't a case either. I have repeatedly asked voodoo to expand on their lords read. voodoo said this:

I'm much more interested in Lords right now, as his towntell seems fabricated and he hasn't been properly questioned this game.

^^ this indicates that voodoo's main issue with lords is the town tell. it also implies that vl thinks lords needs to be questioned. but then, voodoo does not question lords. in fact, even before this you will have difficulty finding any questions from vl directed at lords.

also:

I said that the Lords were deserving of examination on the grounds that a) their towntell was pretty obviously fake and b) their posts had up until that point been more or less unscrutinized because of the Nero wagon.

^^ here is another summary of their case offered by voodoo. notice letter a). its again about the towntell.

fitz: feel free to break down post 148(which you are saying is vl's case on lords) and explain it to me. cause I don't see it.

Also...when you say "his post with his unvote is pretty timely," what are you implying?

that your vote lingered on the wagon until the danger of quicklynch passed. at least it seems that way. its not a big issue for me, but it does help me see the case against you. you could help yourself by offering more reads, maybe? I don't know. defending voodoo with crap quotes isn't going to help you.

Your reluctance to "see the case on me" while voting Voodoo comes across a bit like you don't want to get dirty should I wind up being today's lynch.

I still have time to vote you if I want. but whatevz. things happen. people talk. I ain't worried about stuff like that.

[don_johnson]

what are you trying to push here? That VL is being not terribly helpful?

no. that voodoo is full of shit.

[don_johnson]

I will make this simple. if vl wants to shed my vote then all they have to do is explain this:

I'm much more interested in Lords right now, as his towntell seems fabricated and he hasn't been properly questioned this game.

I said that the Lords were deserving of examination on the grounds that a) their towntell was pretty obviously fake and b) their posts had up until that point been more or less unscrutinized because of the Nero wagon. I've been pointing out things in his posts that have rubbed me the wrong way that I didn't think were receiving much in the way of scrutiny (the thing about the scum PRs and the non-response to Mastin, mainly). Now that Lords are one of the big wagons their posts are receiving some degree of analysis and I don't need to go after them to the extent I wanted to initially.

please show me with quotes, exactly where was lords "questioned" to your satisfaction. what changed in between these posts? who did this "questioning" that you feel was effective enough for you to ignore lords yourself? also, whats your read on fitz? and do you still think mastin is scum?

[don_johnson]

fitz: whats your read on voodoo?

[don_johnson]

ha. thanks. I thought I asked that before. I don't think the slaan wagon is going anywhere today. you may be better served moving to someone who may actually get lynched.

PV: can you quick sum the case on mastin please?

[don_johnson]

I could be persuaded to a mastin wagon. I want a little encouragement from PV first. I did reread 148 and kind of see what they are talking about there. would like voodoo to convince me more though. oh fitz, you confound me so. i'm almost willing to just put you in the permanent town bag and pretend we are masons.

penguin: where you at? you had a pretty level head last game. give me some info.

[don_johnson]

look at lords lining up lynches. I am so glad that my every move is scummy to you lords. its like you're tunneling without showing any capacity for independent thought.

PV: where are you on reading lords?

[don_johnson]

lords: make you a deal. put fitz to L-1 and i'll hammer him. maybe even without a claim.

[don_johnson]

learn to read. key words are "key" to understanding what people are saying. lords is accusing me of distancing myself from your wagon. of course, lords isn't on your wagon. so the accusation is kind of hypocritical. i'm giving them the chance to put their money where their mouth is. this is really none of your concern unless they actually decide to vote you.

come on, lords. lets see your balls.

[don_johnson]

you can claim if you want. but i'm not asking you to. i want to know what lords is going to do here. they have an opportunity to stand behind everything they have said today, or contradict it all. and i am giving them the perfect cover for their actions. please don't fuck with my genius. just hang tight. no pun intended.

[don_johnson]

oh well. that was unnecessary. but whatevz. your wagon wasn't dissolving anytime soon.

looking at your wagon, wideright is really the only one rubbing me wrong atm, but that's probably cause they were just questioning my motives. i'm so damn self involved sometimes.

mastin is doable.

voodoo lady seemd to be the easy wagon. i'm still waiting for some more communication from them, but i'm still happy to drop back onto lords. you can always shoot slaan tonight. but the more i think about my past experiences with slaan, the more i think they are town here.

what do you think about trying to organize a voting block? me, you, penguin is a good start i'd say.

[don_johnson]

pen: which wagon are you disinclined to fight? the one on voodoo lady?

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote: mastin

-I am lynched, fitz is town.
-Scum can do whatever the hell they want to.
-Fitz's shot is more of a wildcard and can damage the town even further.

scum don't leave townfitz alive. how is fitz' shot "more of a wildcard", and wouldn't a wildcard shot be better than shooting a townie?

[don_johnson]

vig is the least likely fake claim. fitz is 100% confirmed as far as i'm concerned.

wr: why the unvote? mastin was at L-2. what exactly were you expecting to happen when you voted him in the first place?

lords: you avoided responding to my request. there was no "gambit". I gave you a chance to put up or shut up, and you shut up. you agreeing with fitz on a point means you share the point of view. stop trying to avoid responsibility for your actions and statements.

voodoo: you should probably chime in here.

[don_johnson]

slaan. be reasonable. mastin or lords are excellent lynches. being confrontational is only going to make you look scummy. get with the program today. fight it out tomorrow. fitz is dead tonight. if you are town, and I think you are, we need you not to get shot. do you want me to build a case on lords? I've been doing it all day. if you would rather them than mastin, I am flexible here. and I know we can get that wagon if we want. we're 20 pages in. we need to start working together.

[don_johnson]

If there was no Gambit, that means you seriously meant that you were going to speedlynch Fitz without a claim. Care to rethink your answer? You "gave me a chance" to switch Wagons away from a stronger scumread onto a weaker read so they could be speedlynched without a claim.... Why was I supposed to do that again?

you didn't respond at all. your case against me started because I was "afraid" to put someone at L-1 on page 2. by not putting one of your top scumreads at L-1 on page 19, you pretty much contradicted yourself. you can call it a gambit if you want. it was more of a baited trap. but if you think I was going to lynch fitz without a claim, you could have said something. anything. but you ignored it. and i'm pretty sure you were online during the discussion between fitz and I. so please don't deny it.

It was a gambit and it basically only had one outcome, making Fitz claim.

meh. that was not my doing. certainly not mine alone. fitz was on his way to being lynched. and you know it, so don't act like something I did "forced" him to claim. it would have happened one way or the other.

Yes, I share the point of view. Duh. I SAID I agreed with it. You seemed to take Fitz out of the equation when you were accusing me.

how did I take fitz out again? what exactly does fitz have to do with anything? my focus was on you. I don't see how what you are saying is even relevant. you just seem to be trying to deflect attention from yourself here.

Can we get a current read list from you DJ? You are all over the map and simply basing cases on whatever seems convenient at the time.

unvote, vote: lords

^^ there's my current read list. I am pretty much done for day 1.

p-edit: no worries atm voodoo. we're good for now. lets get this lords wagon moving again.

[don_johnson]

I think he is referring to 427. the comment you said in that post doesn't really fit, though. either way, lords was implying that I was distancing myself from your wagon. which is entirely hypocritical. like almost everything they say. but whatevz.

[don_johnson]

you were logged on during that time. so you are lieing. shocker.

I really like how you continually try to spin my actions with negative imagery. if you care to point out where I "lost my shit" i'd love a recap.

fitz didn't have to claim. I even clarified that I was not asking him to claim. so blame me all you want. your inaction is just as culpable. you made no indication that you would NOT vote for him. so whatevz.

fitz was never taken out of any equation. there would have to be an equation to begin with. you can either take responsibility for what you said or you can keep deflecting. fact is, you accused me of distancing from the fitz wagon. but I was voting the voodoo wagon and stated that I could see the case on fitz. you were voting the voodoo wagon and similarly agreed with the fitz wagon. making you a hypocrite. so I gave you the chance to not be a hypocrite. and instead of taking any sort of action or posting at all, you ignored this thread. now you claim to be at fireworks, but your post history tells a different story. so whatevz.

what "convenient" wagons would you like me to comment on? I gave my reads already. repeatedly. you are scum and you are grasping at straws trying to look like you are doing something useful. I have been more active than probably any player in the last couple pages and just about every one of my posts contains relevant material. enjoy your noose.

[don_johnson]

That Fitz wagon is full of win. It's like our townreads are all voting in the same place.

[don_johnson]

I exclusively phone post. Of course I was logged in, it doesn't mean I was reading THIS thread or that I would have had time to respond to it.

you posted elsewhere. so whatevz.

Are you seriously trying to spin it that Fitz claimed because I didn't post?

nope. fitz claimed of his own accord. you are as much to blame as I am. fitz was at L-2. you stated:

That Fitz wagon is full of win.

^^ which implies that you

more

than approve of the wagon. I told you if you voted that I might be inclined to hammer. basically giving you an opportunity to put your money where your mouth is. not only did you not vote the wagon you stated was full of win, but you didn't even chime in with an opinion. so if you want to place blame on me, you need to accept some of that blame yourself. seeing as how you won't accept your responsibility in the escalation of the fitz wagon, you have no right to push that responsibility onto me.

I made no action to say that I would either. I think I've made my position pretty clear in regards to Voodoo and Fitz.

yes. you want voodoo lynched and you think the fitz wagon was "full of win". most people would interpret that as you supporting both wagons.

How is that hypocritical?

because I essentially did the same thing(although you showed much much more gusto in your support of the fitz wagon without ever adding your vote.), but you tried to spin it as scummy coming from me. that's basically the definition of hypocrisy.

I had town reads on everyone on his wagon. Can you stop misrepresenting me?

please quote where I have "misrepresented" you. I am presenting an extremely factual retelling of events.

Fitz stated it, I agreed with him because it made sense with my reads.

except of course, your read that fitz was scum. I mean, how else do you describe a wagon as "full of win" if not to imply that the player being wagoned is scum? so yeah. it made sense with your "reads". except the one. to which it didn't make sense at all.

For it to be true, Fitz would have to flip town, so tell me again why I should have voted there. There is a distinct lack of hypocrisy.

i'm not saying you should have voted there. you thought the fitz wagon was full of "win". that implies you thought fitz was likely scum. you made a case against me for NOT placing nero at L-1 on page 2. yet on page 19, you seem unwilling to place one of your top scumspects at L-1. placing him at L-1 would have been consistent with your case against me from earlier(however different the circumstances may be), but there are a myriad of acceptable reactions to the situation. going silent is one of the scummiest. given his claim, voting him may have been construed as scummy too, but that would have depended on how you did it and too many other things that don't matter at this point. fact is, you accused me of something in the early game, which you then did in the late game. you also accused me of supporting the fitz wagon, but not voting on it, thereby distancing myself from it... while you did the exact same thing. hence, both of your issues with me are hypocritical, because you did the same shit. looking forward to your case against me.

You can't prove I read this thread, why are you attempting to fight me on this?

i'm just pointing out that you were logged in AND posting in another thread while fitz and I were discussing whether or not he should claim. part of why he thought he had to claim was because of your previous willingness to support his wagon and his fear that your vote might lead to me dropping a hammer. he wasn't scared of JUST me. sorry, but when I am directly involved in the goings on of a game, at the very least I am peaking into the forum to see if there is anything I need to address(especially if I am town). your failure to pop in and say ANYTHING AT ALL while posting in another thread is a fact. how others interpret that fact is up to them. imo, you didn't know how to respond, so you ignored it until the situation resolved itself. you actively lurked through a pivotal part of the game.

I had no part in your rolefishing gambit, you just included me, apparently so you can blame it on me. Scummy.

there it is. the predictable "rolefishing" accusation. well done.

You gave your reads? If they were current, why are you currently voting a null read? How did townies drop to scum? Why are you apparently not following your read list in the slightest?

^^this is by far the scummiest thing you have ever posted. you seem to be directly ignoring everything that has happened in between me posting that list of reads, and our current state of affairs.

good townies: this should be obvious at this point. please join the lords wagon.

mafia: lords is dragging you down. please start the bus.

[don_johnson]

here's a tl:dr of the dj/lords argument:

lords: dj is scum because he's doing

x

,

y

, and

z

.

dj: well, actually. you're doing

x

,

y

, and

z,

too.

lords: NO I'M NOT! YOU'RE SCUM!

dj: well actually, if you look here:

x, y and z.

you can plainly see that you are doing

x

,

y

, and

z

.

lords: you are misrepresenting me. YOU ARE SCUM!

dj: nah. I'm just saying that, you know, you're being a little hypocritical here.

lords: THERE YOU GO ROLEFISHING AGAIN!!

[don_johnson]

FYI: if anyone wants me to continue posting in response to lords' shit case against me, just let me know. i'd rather not continue to pollute this thread if its unnecessary. I have clear and concise responses to lords but I see no benefit in a WoT war unless someone out there is actually buying his silliness. so just let me know.

[don_johnson]

or you could, ya know, answer stubbs' question....

[don_johnson]

you just said you were going to post a case, now you're swearing at me. i'm not sure where your animosity is coming from. feel free to go back and quote any relevant questions I didn't answer for you. its not my fault you're scum. as a matter of fact, its not your fault either.

and I love how you blame hydra dissonance for the discrepancy of your reads. its the perfect cover, isn't it? whats funny is that stubbs asked you for a case that makes sense, and you deflected the question to blaming hydra dissonance. you skipped the part where you point him to your case against voodoo. now you claim voodoo and I are partners. but offer no real evidence to that fact. and yes, I saw your post above and can debunk it with ease. but i'm not engaging in a post war unless other players need me to.

[don_johnson]

no need to be an asshole. I don't even know what you are talking about here. stubbs asked a question. apparently mhork avoided it. now you have avoided it as well. all either of you has to do is say "hey stubbs, the voodoo case was in post ... " stubbs isn't asking for anything new here as far as I can tell. but he can handle that. as for your hydra, one of you little shits promised a case on dj. instead I got a slough of ad hom. so again. enjoy your noose.

[don_johnson]

I'm not blaming hydra dissonance for the discrepancy. That's misrepresentation right there. Voodoo became the bigger suspect when I got tired and Ree took over posting 'cause he thought Voodoo was better than you.

um. yeah. that's hydra dissonance in a nutshell. one head thinks one thing, other head thinks another. so... yes. yes you are blaming hydra dissonance for the discrepancy.

Also I absolutely fucking hate that condescending 'ask the playerbase 'cause you're so protown' approach you're using. Take a stand for yourself and actually do something protown instead of being so caught up in looking protown and trying to feel out what the town wants. Grow a spine and fight back or admit your lack of spine and roll over. This halfhearted little game of 'lord is kinda scum but not really except he's totally scum if you say so' thing is bullshit.

^^ this makes me chuckle.

Yup. I ignored it by quoting it and answering it. Wait a minute....

um. nope. you blamed the discrepancy on hydra dissonance. you did not point out or produce a case on voodoo. that's what it appeared stubbs was asking for. but i'll let them speak for themselves.

A case on dj? I've posted several...

nope. not really. but whatevz. what was this:

BTW, the wall was Mhork.

Case is still incoming.

I interpreted it as though you still had a case incoming on me. if you meant someone else, then by all means... don't let me impede your hard work.

[don_johnson]

OK, I'm having trouble following this on account of the redefinition of terms, I think? DJ is saying there is a difference between the reads in the two heads of the hydra and calling it dissonance. Lords is saying there's no dissonance, just that when a new head came in to post it had different reads. Or, Lords, are you saying you both find the same players scummy, just with different priority levels?

this question has little value. we just had this conversation. lords clearly stated that the dissonance was over priority. i'm not sure what was "redefined". hydra dissonance is when one head thinks one way, and the other head thinks the other. whether its over priority or actual suspects is somewhat irrelevant. what was interesting about this instance, was how lords used the dissonance to avoid answering a question. it took several posts over the course of two pages for stubbs' question to be answered. for some reason, lords has jumped on the use of the word "dissonance". there's nothing negative about the term. I don't know. sometimes I think i'm the only one with a reading and comprehension level above fourth grade here.

the whole "voodoo>dj" bit doesn't seem to fit with their level of frustration. I think they've been clinging to it for so long that they are worried about drawing suspicion if they drop it. lords just finally answered stubbs question with a small case summary on voodoo, but why did it take so long? and why couldn't they just point back to where they originally laid out the case? its worth going back and looking into their iso to see if its even there. cause I think that was the issue in the first place.

i'm pretty sure that lords is scum. i'm also pretty sure that if voodoo is scum, then lords is town. barring a voodoo scumflip, I can't see much else that would change my mind about lords. if lords is town, they need to relax.

[don_johnson]

vote:lords of mhystery

how's that?

[don_johnson]

penguin_alien, Wide Right, StubbsKVM, Venmar

^^ sending you all cordial invites to the town voting bloc. currently your presence is requested on the lords wagon.

[don_johnson]

also, just noticed that not just one, but BOTH heads of lords of mhystery were logged in and posting during the discussion between fitz and I regarding the claiming issue.

[don_johnson]

BERT!! good to know you are here. nacho's slot wasn't bad, but he was kind of coasting. let me know what you think when you get to the fitz claim. please note that both lords heads were posting elsewhere in the forums during my and fitz' exchange. I obviously can't prove they were browsing this forum, but I can't imagine they were on and not paying attention. in any case. welcome!

stubbs: thanks for reminding me what was fucked up abut voodoo. the push on lords feels, well, fabricated. maybe that's not the right word, but I realize I said I doubt they are scum together, but I am thinking I will do some wagon analysis later. do you think its possible for them to be scum together? that they jumped each others wagons while they were pickingup steam so as not ot be left off the "scum" wagon? it would certainly explain lords' seemingly inexplicable desire to stay on the voodoo wagon instead of voting for me. I need to go back and see the context of their crossvoting and where the wagons were at when it happened.

also, I don't have an issue with the post you are quoting, per se, it is just reminding me of the poor quality in voodoo's vote and subsequent explanation. I think the lords/nero thing might just be apples and oranges at this point. I think their statements could have both just been dumb statements irrelevant of their alignments. but I have to go back and look maybe.

I think it is pertinent to look back and see the context of the voodoo/lords crossvoting. if someone has time to look into it, please do. I am off to work for the evening. will address it when I get back.

[don_johnson]

slaandar: why not a lords lynch?

[don_johnson]

again. if anyone needs me to serve this shit back to this meatball, just let me know.

[don_johnson]

fitz: consider this my last impassioned plea for a lords lynch. out of the three candidates I believe they are most likely to flip scum. maybe voodoo is scum buddying me, but maybe they are town with common sense. mastin is, well, mastin. I will certainly move to mastin if you ask. just answer this first:

do you want to lynch mastin because you believe they are most likely scum? or that their flip will give you the most info to help you direct your shot tonight? is it a combination of both? please explain. obviously, I would prefer you avoid calling out your targets directly, but I just want some insight as to why mastin is so important over these other two(specifically lords).

penguin: you need to contribute. soon please.

lords: I like how you make stuff up. maybe that's why no one is listening to you? I await your analysis of the fitz wagon...

[don_johnson]

w.
o.
w.

great point there. i can totally see how cooperating with the guy whose like 99.99% confirmed is scummy. that makes so much sense. is there like, metal in the water where you live?

[don_johnson]

rereading entire thread.

noticing wr's initial vote on nero is kind of silly. it doesn't sound "purposefully obtuse" at all. is this what really started the nero wagon?

Why did you question my vote on you but not ferrets?

^^this never got answered by nachomamma. sort of. he explained the nero vote, but not why he didn't question ferret. not huge. but noticing this on the second go around.

wr #49 is mountain out of molehill.

mystery's "what were scum pr's" could come from either alignment. obviously if its faked, then lords is scum, but I have seen dumb questions like that from town as well. a quick search of mr. ree shows that this is most likely his first open game on this site at the least. which actually makes this more of a towntell than anything. this confounds me. scumlords now only really makes sense with voodoo scum, if this was some sort of staged bus between them. I don't know. stream of consciousness here.

fitz' vote is bad. the "purposefull obtuse" thing isn't really voteworthy. the self vote is. but whatevz. fitz has the pr pass.

lords 61. not even addressing this.

nachomamma 63 is scummy. nacho should know better. there is no guarantee nero is gonna be around here. placing an L-1 on page 2 is a terrible move. BERT: ARE YOU SCUM? SAY IT AIN'T SO...

venmar has a bad vote, unexplained, and short follow up with no further commentary.

Nearly voted for Nero too, but then spotted the third page.
Nero: time to claim or you're dead!

^^ yeah, I can't figure out why lords is tunneling me when more than one player(including half of his own hydra did the exact same thing). but whatevz. starting to think lords is town. and just a couple of dicks. but whatevz.

goddammit nacho! being so scummy. fortunately for nacho, he is on my automatic day 1 pass list.

67 nero is just weird. almost looks like scum distancing. vehement response to nacho, vote on wr.

this reread is turning my world upside down.

dammit, nacho 68 is bad as well. poor explanation on the ferret thing. but everyone was reading poorly at the start of this game. I think that's what led to the confusion over ferret's vote in the first place. I read it wrong too. so whatevz. here's hoping nachomamma is the IC.

*interlude: lordsofinsanity: DJ IS ROLEFISHING AGAIN!

enjoy a preemptive shut the fuck up.

nero is posting like terrible town. anyone have meta on this cracker?

78 brings nacho back to the town side. whew.

stubbs 79 is common sense. stubbs is conftown imo.

weird thing about post 80. i'm pretty sure nacho has been in enough games with me where quickhammers drop like flies. nacho knows I am a competent player, in fact, nacho himself is a competent player but i'm pretty sure he's dropped a couple quickhammers himself over time. I am confounded. again.

meh. stubbs 93 looks like posturing. at this point, nero is obviously mad(crazy). trying to make a legitimate voteworthy point about an emotional post seems like its trying to take advantage of the situation.

94: slaandar you lazy fuck. i totally love you.

wr 99 assumes everyone here has legitimate brain power. simply not true. hopefully lesson has been learned.

fitz 110: golden reinforces wr scum read.

unvote

lords may be town with no sense of cooperation and no ability to clear their own mind and approach games with an open mind.

will revisit this later. vote may go back. need a break.

[don_johnson]

you really need to learn how to play this game. you are town now because you are:

TOO DUMB TO BE SCUM.

congratulations. at some point you will realize that when someone posts like they are town, its usually because they are town. all of your points are "look at dj

trying

to be town." so you obviously see town motivation in my posts. you obviously see that I am trying to cooperate with others. by asking people questions, I stimulate discussion and get more information in the thread. by "appealing" to the guy who's pretty much confirmed, I am actually being smart and reasonable. why all these things are scumtells to you I can

only

chalk up to stupidity. so again. congratulations. if fitz doesn't shoot you, I ain't gonna push your lynch.

vote: mastin

fitz: I would have liked answers from you. but whatevz.

slaan: can't wait for a third party interpretation of our wall war.

[don_johnson]

Awesome. My other head decided to go get hammered. >.<

Anyway he was all up in arms to throw down a Nero Cain vote, but instead, Ree, I got something else here, pal.

don johnson, you came in here and said you agreed with the largest wagon, but you didn't put a vote down. Why is that?

VOTE: don_johnson

^^ this is what started our entire argument. translated thusly:

I am going to accuse dj of being scummy for supporting the nero wagon but not voting on it. in doing so, I am going to support the nero wagon, but not vote on it.

your entire issue with me was hugely hypocritical. reread the fucking thread already and try to clear your mind. you are tunneling. your case aginst me since has been "oh look, dj posted, he's scummy." as if nothing I post is pro town or holding any sort of content. yet your main push is that I am "seeming" protown. in order to "seem" protown, one has to be exhibiting protown habits. i.e. stop being such a dick and help us find scum. maybe shower first to get the stink of your own ass off your head.

[don_johnson]

ven: i'm just done sparring with these guys. their arguments don't hold any water. I just can't see scum engaging in this fashion. they are making it too obvious to be caught when I flip. seriously, you admit to not reading the thread. if you look at their arguments you should be able to easily see what I am referring to.

[don_johnson]

So you not wanting to argue with someone must immediately make them town?

no. that's not what I said. I just don't think they are actually scum. I think they are two immature pricks who are too stubborn to be pro town. i'm guessing they are both teenagers?

[don_johnson]

it could be an act and they could be scum. but i'd sooner lynch elsewhere. fitz seems bent on mastin, and he's the one who has to take what will most likely be his only shot tonight. so imo, that makes the most sense. voodoo certainly hasn't done themselves any favors, and maybe they have just been buddying me, but I don't like lynching folks who agree with me on basic issues.

[don_johnson]

#597 is pretty scummy. Main reason I don't like 597 is because he sounds far too confident that Fitz is town and that Fitz is a vigilante, which I think might be because he has scum knowledge.

um. no. vig is near impossible to fake in this set up. the most risky fakeclaim by far. only way I think scum fakes it is if they are trying to draw out the real vig. so odds are against fitz being scum. treating him like town is the civilized thing to do. you want to call it "scum knowledge", imo its more like "common sense".

His logic on sheeping Fitz also makes little sense. It doesn't matter who we lynch today, Fitz will live the day, he will get his shot no matter what.

yes, but if fitz feels that mastin's flip will be the most insightful then shouldn't we be giving him the chance to take the best shot possible? again, this may come down to playstyle, but I believe in cooperation.

If anything, we should NOT be lynching Mastin if Fitz is hellbent on lynching him, probably means Fitz is willing to shoot him.

why would you want to go against the grain? fitz obviously wants mastin's flip first. it may be helpful in him deciphering his other reads. by not cooperating with fitz, you are basically making his job harder. this is simply not pro town.

Don also backtracks a bit by saying he might rethink his position on Lords with the first sentence of the post, which is a bit scummy since he just said very confidently they were town.

um no. changing reads is very common in the game of mafia. I am not a day cop. therefore I have no knowledge of lords' alignment. to pretend otherwise would be arrogant and stubborn. for example, look at lords read on me. they haven't for one second considered I may be town, even though they are obviously and consistently seeing "protown" parts to my posts. its idiotic. everyones reads change once alignments start flipping. I have been sparring with lords all day. i'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt because I don't atm see the scum motivation in their posts. now if mastin flips scum and voodoo flips town, then their argument with me could be interpreted as a giant smokescreen to distract from their push on a townie against a scum. but we need flips to make that determination. i'm not going to get drawn into "absolutes" on day 1. that's just poor play. imo, the smart thing to do is to give our vig his best chance. deal with the fallout tomorrow. but whatevz.

Don't like how Don is trying to justify his spontaneous Lords townread by saying stubbornness and being dumb are towntells, which they aren't, they're not alignment indicative. I don't like how Don just gave up, I believe the more town response would be to not give up or to give up BUT not drop the scumread.

Town should have a healthy dose of skepticism when it comes to claims, especially in this set-up.[/quote]

[don_johnson]

scratch the last line. that's the end of ven's post. but I disagree with that sentiment whole heartedly. skepticism breeds paranoia and paranoia will destroy ya. just ask penguin.

[don_johnson]

ven: for the sake of argument, please explain what you think fitz' motivation would be to lynch mastin over voodoo and/or lords? assume for the sake of this argument that fitz is indeed scum.

[don_johnson]

missed this whole section:

Don't like how Don is trying to justify his spontaneous Lords townread by saying stubbornness and being dumb are towntells, which they aren't, they're not alignment indicative.

i'm not talking about absolutes. i'm saying that in this instance, lords' stubbornness and idiocy have me more inclined to think they may be town. you are correct in that they are not alignment indicative, but they are certainly things to consider in concert with scum motivation.

I don't like how Don just gave up, I believe the more town response would be to not give up or to give up BUT not drop the scumread.

um. a) I've been fighting with this asshole hydra since page 3. I've given it my best. b) I have clearly not abandoned the scumread. you pointed that out yourself, here:

Don also backtracks a bit by saying he might rethink his position on Lords with the first sentence of the post, which is a bit scummy since he just said very confidently they were town.

you can't have it both ways.

this:

Town should have a healthy dose of skepticism when it comes to claims, especially in this set-up.

is what i was referring to here:

I disagree with that sentiment whole heartedly. skepticism breeds paranoia and paranoia will destroy ya. just ask penguin.

[don_johnson]

That's actually ridiculously funny. Have you ever played with me, dj?

not to my knowledge. no.

That may have STARTED my war against you, but since then I have indicated many things you are doing that are scummy. I have made cases, at one point I was more reasonable, but you still repeated act like a jackass, ignore what I post, and then prostrate yourself before the town trying to make them think that you are oh so much more reasonable than I am and that you 'don't want to clutter the thread arguing with me.' It's actually kinda funny in a sorta twisted way.

seriously dude. I have answered every single question. I haven't ignored anything. if there is something you would like me to address, just ask. my issue with your arguments is that you haven't fully explained them and you haven't supported them with quotes, and that most of them are just plain bad. but whatevz.

Only for a couple years. What's wrong with being a teenager anyway?

nothing. but it makes you much more prone to follow emotion over reason imo. you also have many years less experience in the field of communicating with others which makes it easy for you to misunderstand or be misunderstood. in short, it makes you less mature.

You know that sometimes younger minds are capable of processing and seeing things that adults can't due to ground in assumptions about the world?

my kids say some amazing shit. they are incredibly creative. they are remarkably insightful. I am still better at reading comprehension. i'm still more knowledgeable.

Ever seen the bus test?

nope. what is it?

599 is again what I have been saying is appeal to authority. And skepticism is kinda key in mafia...

I disagree. town can self destruct due to paranoia. we have to be able to read with an open mind. for instance, you think I am an asshole. I think you are an asshole. we both know we are not scum together, which means at least one(if not both) of us are town. we need to not be paranoid. in fact, if you're not scum then we actually should work together because we will have better results. I have never seen town win a game where town is arguing incessantly with each other. that's how scum wins. town wins, in my experience, come from players seeking to understand each other and work together. there is always the paranoia of "what if mafia infiltrates the trust circle" kind of shit, but that usually works itself out through the course of a game. scum have to play damn near perfect, if not completely perfect, to beat an organized and thoughtful town. in a game where townies are skeptical of every role claim, arguing emotionally and being blind to actual content, scum just has to fit in. town voting blocks/alliances formed early usually spell doom for scum even if scum is granted access to the block. scum almost always fight any sort of organization. some townies do to, but I think ultimately organizing is a better strategy, and most players realize that over time. so in that instance you have to sort the inexperienced players from the scum.

fitz' claim should be accepted wholeheartedly at this time and we should be working to put him in the best position for a shot. if he's fakeclaiming, either the real vig will shoot him(problem solved), or he will have to come up with one hell of a story to explain the lack of a second kill in a game with no scum power. there is a small chance of he and scum choosing the same target. it would make much more sense for scum to shoot fitz and simply hope he doesn't hit one of their own. so the roleclaim should work itself out. sowing paranoia into the town based on the claim is scummy and anyone doing it should be under the microsope.

[don_johnson]

its not moving.

[don_johnson]

the picture is incomplete. I need some wavy lines. but if I must choose, i'd probably say right.

[don_johnson]

honestly no.

[don_johnson]

interesting. point taken.

will you please reread mastin? if fitz is town, then we have pretty much reduced his 2-shot power to 1. I really think we should be doing everything we can to maximize his effectiveness. if he is scum, I really don't see why he'd be pushing a lynch on mastin. if mastin is town, they have been for the most part pretty useless. town will not suffer to mislynch mastin. if he is scum then all the better, but if he is a mislynch and fitz is town and his mislynch helps maximize fitz' effectiveness, then I really think its our best course of action. I don't feel like the voodoo lynch guarantees scum. I am heading out for a bit. will address anything else later.

[don_johnson]

well. I asked you to reread mastin. you seem bent on not doing it. so whatevz. his initial comment on the jk could easily be construed as rolefishing. if you want to ignore that then so be it. voodoo isn't a bad lynch. just not optimal imo. if you would rather not cooperate with fitz, then I guess that's on you. I like how you give ven creative points for suggesting that the bus might be going in reverse, but refuse to acknowledge the fact that the bus is CLEARLY not moving at all. but whatevz. you're a teenager. you have the world all figured out.

bert: can you move to mastin? lords ain't happenin and fitz ain't budgin. we can sort this out in the AM.

[don_johnson]

DJ why are you so sure I am town?

I wouldn't describe as "so sure". I just don't have any reason to think you're scum at this time.

Well if he is scum then the fact is it will be obvious tomorrow one way or the other, this means that he would need to use any cred he gets today from the claim to lynch a townie; Mastintown is a fairly viable lynch from his perspective and thus he pushes it.

I guess. but what about voodoo or lords? with the towncred from the claim, he may as well lynch either of them unless one of them is his scumbuddy. I doubt the scumteam is fitz/lords/voodoo. so being insanely stubborn makes little sense imo. scumfitz would be pretty clear to jump at least one of those wagons. as it is he's being pretty stubborn. and I think we agree, he is not likely scum. so... meh.

Mastin is actually quite good as town so its a good result from a Fitzscum POV based on the circumstances.

really? I was thinking mastin has been quite useless. couple that with the few things that could be interpreted as scummy... I guess the only hesitancy should be if we really think fitz is scum. so yeah. back to the top.

I don't really see scum claiming vig though. Mastin is probably scum, the two can resolve it during the night as it plays round this scenario.

^^ yes. but if fitz is likely town, i'd still rather grant him the lynch he wants to better utilize his shot, because he is most likely dead tonight. no real incentive here for a scumteam to let him take his second shot in some elaborate scheme to try and frame him.

stubbs: that's been one of voodoo's issues this whole game. they seem to pop in and out, say something a little protownish and then disappear.

venmar: feel free to answer the question asked of you.

[don_johnson]

slaan: whats up?

[don_johnson]

ven: for the sake of argument, please explain what you think fitz' motivation would be to lynch mastin over voodoo and/or lords? assume for the sake of this argument that fitz is indeed scum.

^^ this one. its in reference to your skepticism of the claim.

[don_johnson]

you haven't addressed the points I brought up about mastin. I gave you the benefit of the doubt. you acted like a know it all. if at any time you want to address mastin's opening statement regarding the jk, please do so. if at any time you want to show with quotes and possible scenarios and such(you know, evidence?) that my statements were possibly more damaging than mastin's original statement then I am all ears. I have not been ignoring you. you have just been filling your posts with a lot of extraneous bullshit. I conceded your point about the bus. I get it. but now you are refusing to look at things with an open mind which again, is hugely hypocritical given that you just freaked out on me and just had to show the genius behind the bus test. but whatevz.

[don_johnson]

here. let me help you. I will take your post and cut out the bullshit:

a) I'm looking at mastin but he doesn't look scummy.

b) I don't particularly believe the claim

c) dj is a better lynch than I am

^^ these are the relevant parts of your post. now the only thing missing is the evidence to substantiate your claims. the only one you substantiated is (b). and its not that great. but whatevz. you tried.

now try substantiating (a) and (c).

[don_johnson]

timer says we still have two days.

[don_johnson]

Voodoo Lady
penguin_alien
StubbsKVM
don_johnson
Nachomamma8
havingfitz

^^ that's a 6 person voting block if we want it. barring fakeclaim shenanigans i'm willing to call this our town. this group seems reasonable and well argued. I know penguin can be a bit paranoid, but he's coming around.

fitz: I ask again- do we really want mastin today? my past experience with him, though limited, has been that he is a jokey lurker. though I can see a case for him to be scum, he may very well be town. this close to deadline, we should have enough push with the above list that we can get any lynch we want. I don't know. food for thought.

PeregrineV
Nero Cain
Lords of Mhystery
Slandaar
Venmar
mastin2
Wide Right

i'd almost nix nero and pv out of this list as our possible lynch pool, but pv has been far to sparse imo. I guess we wait and see if nero wants out. but really anyone on this list I think has good possibility of flipping scum.

[don_johnson]

no. like past experience. my memory of mastin is vague, but I remember him being a non contributing lurker when I did play with him. I have over 80 games on this site over several years. I don't keep close track of them which is why my "meta" is basically a large part of what I use to support my "gut" type arguments. here my gut on mastin says "sure he could be scum. but he could also be town." so for me its a compromise lynch to help fitz achieve his goals. nacho has always been strong for town, so i generally don't fuck with him unless i have reason. your case above is not convincing, in fact i think you misinterpreted a couple things he said, but i'll let him defend himself. there is room for you in the town voting block, but i would need you to stop being so paranoid. we are closing in on deadline and should really come together on a lynch. the more we fight organization, the easier it will be for scum to hide amongst the last minute switching. call it a fascist approach if you want, but at this point in the game i start suspecting people sowing dissension and confusion. its time to unite. nacho is not in the lynch pool at this time. pushing there could be construed as noble, but i think its ultimately distracting from the situation at hand.

[don_johnson]

jeez, people. lets get some votes out there.

[don_johnson]

jeez, people. lets get some votes out there.

Can you vote Lords and not vote mastin for now?

I could. i'd like to see what happens here. if people rally and get lords up there, I may move, but tbh, if fitz is who he says he is, then I am fine honoring his call. let mastin be his first shot, and let him take his second one tonight. cause he's dead fuckin meat if he's the vig.

[don_johnson]

true. but I don't think he's a "bad" scumhunter either. regardless, the idea here is to let him take his two shots, since he is inevitably going to be stripped of one when scum murder his ass tonight. or maybe they'll tag the tracker? or maybe fitz and voodoo are 2/3 of the scumteam? its a genuine picklefuck of a day if you ask me. I do like that you voted lords, though.

[don_johnson]

fitz: too bad you don't have a machine gun. I can't believe there's only three scum in this game.

mastin: you seem to be posturing for survival. you are running out of time. if you are town, please try harder.

[don_johnson]

fitz: read the rules. lynch goes through no matter what. lords is still posting trash. I can break it down for you if you need, but they are obvscum.

mastin: I don't have reason to lynch nero, and a meta case is not something i'm gonna jump on at deadline. do you care to vote lords? feel free to help me string them up...

[don_johnson]

results from Voodoo please.

in any case, a reread is in order. I am pretty relieved that lords was scum. they would have been hard to swallow if that was their town play.

so wideright and venmar were both voting scum at deadline. scum who stood a wonderful chance of being vigged and revealed. can the two of you remind me why you were voting there?

[don_johnson]

If you think there is scum motivation behind trying to bus one of your scum partners when a town mislynch is secured, then I am at a loss for words.

quite a bit of scum motivation imo. I have to reread, but I don't recall you or wideright supporting the lords wagon when it had an actual chance of going through. it was pretty obvious that lords was near top of the list to be vigged. what better way to gain town cred? and yes, your "I called mastin town" post is rather useless.

[don_johnson]

i'll be going v/la in a few days. before that hopefully I will do a little fact based iso of lords. currently I thin it is worth looking between venmar and wr, moreso venmar. I am only going on my memory of the day which is admittedly vague, but I recall venmar swapping sides in the lords/dj debate at interesting times and I find his late day move to the lords wagon rather convenient given the circumstances. in any case, I need to reread to confirm my thoughts and I think the lords iso is probably more important and will undoubtedly fit in to the whole scheme of things anyway. so i'll hit this up tomorrow night/Wednesday morning as time allows and try to get some info out there.

right now my town core is voodoo, nero, and myself. I need to take a close look at just about everybody else.

[don_johnson]

so then how do you feel about venmar/wideright positioning themselves on the scum wagon at the end of the day?

[don_johnson]

venmar: funny how you are starting to sound like lords. try and discredit it all you want.

i'm not saying that you AND wr are scum.

I'm saying that its likely that one of lords' partners positioned themselves on his wagon at the end of the day because as one of his partners, that player knew full well that mastin would flip town and that lords stood a pretty good chance of being vigged. the theory is sound. if you want to argue that you are not scum, then explain why are you are not scum, but don't try and argue against a theory that makes PERFECT FUCKING SENSE. that was what lords was doing yesterday.

you are not doing yourself any favors here. what was it that changed your mind then about lords? your vote on him was useless at the end of the day and I don't recall you campaigning or pushing hard for his lynch. you basically just avoided the mastin wagon. but whatevz.

I will do a full work up of the case building against you as I see fit. if you are town, then your time will be better served finding scum instead of arguing with me. lords flip all but confirms me. it also confirms just about everything lords was arguing against yesterday. so you trying to cast suspicion on me is just going to go badly for you.

[don_johnson]

it is doubtful that I would support the nero lynch at this time but present a case and I will be happy to look it over.

[don_johnson]

I think pv makes a good point. what killed the lords wagon?

[don_johnson]

Venmar is scum dude.

^^ this most likely true. my v/la starts tonight. I will try and check in but can't promise a lot of activity until I return.

[don_johnson]

no mass claim. no votes on voodoo. stop being stupid. mc at this point benefits scum. vig is out of play so no extra kill at night. nothing to really worry about. we don't need to help scum pinpoint their shots.

wide right or venmar are good votes atm. slaandar, nacho and penguin deserve some rereading. penguin is posting similar to my last game with them though, so they are lower on that list.


^^ that's the lynch pool. the rest of you start doing some leg work. I won't have significant time to contribute until about Wednesday or Thursday.

[don_johnson]

yes i have read. i think its pointless. pr's should only claim when they choose to. forcing out a claim is a bad idea. it guarantees us no insight. we should just play with voodoo confirmed town until we have reason to believe otherwise. noone has produced research on what killed the lords wagon. noone has mentioned who were the first people to jump off the lords wagon. no one has properly questioned venmar and wide right on their motives for their late day votes. in short, none of you are doing any fucking leg work. do the work before you decide to massclaim. i will absolutely refuse to claim if it starts to go down and i urge others to do the same. it is nonsense. do some analysis first. claim tomorrow. only players claiming today should be those we ring up.

[don_johnson]

wr: i am not stupid. my theory of suspicion is perfectly logical. i never spat it in absolutes. i simply stated that it made sense for at least one of lords' scumbuddies to position themselves on a wagon that would boost towncred. your post you linked contained nothing in the way of an opinion on lords. it was all about other players and then contained a vote on lords. but whatevz. i am more concerned with venmar and his breadcrumbs atm. he earlier had a post which contained the phrase "I am town" in bolded letters. either way, we are lynching slaandar's guilty. i don't have an issue with voodoo. it was pretty obvious he suspected lords so his story fits. his in game play has been poor, but unless a claim surfaces to discredit him or he is slaandars guilty, i am not going to pursue him. i still don't see a reason for massclaim yet. slaan has a guilty, no reason to deal with massclaim until tomorrow. b ut whatevz.

[don_johnson]

you guys are idiots.

if AA confirms slaan, then we lynch voodoo. if voodoo flips town we lynch nero. i think that still leaves town a good bit ahead. deducing the third scum should not be difficult if we actually take the time to reread the game.

no lynch is just silly. probably just allows scum to further manipulate town. we have a 50/50 chance of hitting scum today if slaan is IC. if we no lynch, scum takes out slaan and leaves us in the same predicament tomorrow. terrible idea. wr really wants to climb that scum list.

[don_johnson]

lets not lynch til we get slaan mod confirmed k? scum is nailed somewhere in this mess, only way for scumteam to make this work in their advantage is to rush a lynch on the wrong head. so stop voting, wait for AA to confirm Slaan. then we lynch voodoo cause they are most likely scum. if they flip town then we have a 100% confirmed scum lynch tomorrow. giving scum a free shot and leaving ourselves in the SAME FUCKING PREDICAMENT tomorrow is stupid. i read your shit wr. it is not optimal. no need to pass on stringing one of these fuckers up today.

stop fucking voting. a quicklynch is scums best way out of this mess.

p-edit: wr, stop arguing for a no lynch. its stupid. a scum lynch today is great. a mislynch guaranfuckingtees a scum lynch tomorrow. way better than ending up in a mylo with a 50% shot at scum. shut. the. fuck. up.

[don_johnson]

how many people are alive?

[don_johnson]

meh. with 10 alive and two scum all you're doing is prolonging the inevitable. if nero is town we are not getting a result. and if you think nero is town and slaan is town, then voodoo is scum. so we may as well lynch voodoo. no lynch isn't terrible idea, but its certainly not optimal here. no lynching also robs us of potential wagon analysis on a scum or town pr. no lynch does not increase town chance of win. it gives scum more time to think and plan.

slaan: please bold your claim and have the mod confirm you.

[don_johnson]

voodoo: please explain scumnero's motivation to counterclaim a role that scum did not choose to put in the game.

[don_johnson]

vote:wideright

obvscum is obvious.

I think my theory about the lords votes at the end of day 1 is solid logic. if venmar is town, then wideright is scum. the no lynch fiasco from yesterday just reads like scum stalling for time. it really just sucks to be wideright in this situation. I am back from vacation so I should have time in the next few days to reread and whatnot but I see no reason not to start here.

[don_johnson]

use your time wisely please. stop blaming your lack of opinions and your lack of convictions on your other head.

Lynch pool:

Venmar
Stubbs
Penguin
Wide Right

give me your preferred lynch order and why.

p-edit: hahahahahahahaha.

[don_johnson]

aw fuck. nacho, get with the program, please.

Why is PV not in your pool?

why on earth would he be? i haven't seen any scum motivation in his posts. if it makes you feel better, go ahead and add him to the pool and then answer the question.

[don_johnson]

what does "lampooning" mean?

why is PV scum?

[don_johnson]

lynch pool is just a lynch of people i'm willing to lynch. or in this case, a list of people I wanted wr to sort.

slaan: wr said they believed venmar was town. I was presenting the hypothetical. I am personally not sold on venmar town. right now, I think wr is scum. if that is the case then venmar is town. nacho is town, stubbs is town, etc. so I am interested in hearing from everyone. I think the points I have presented are perfectly logical. it doesn't mean i'm right, but its not like i'm blowin smoke here. if you want me to present a full fledged case on wr I can work on it. atm, I am interested in what some of these other players have to say, cause in reality, anyone of these fuckers could be the final scum. you should know by now that its not me. but cases can be made for several players. wr is one of those. I would have to look back at PV(I am assuming you were referring to them about their mastin vote camp on day 1?). cause otherwise I have found PV to be rather well spoken. they certainly aren't on the top end of the scale when it comes to activity, but their posts haven't pinged my scumdar at all. I think venmar and wr would be my top two until someone can disprove my theory. jumping that lords wagon at the end of day 1 was an awfully convenient move, and wr's post with their lords vote contains absolutely zero info on why they are voting lords as far as I can tell. venmar's play was just a bit wishy washy, but I would need to look back a bit more before bumping them up the list. wr should be making a case imo. I don't see that happening.

nacho: why penguin?

p-edit: did penguin just put themselves on their own scumlist?

[don_johnson]

fair enough.

now let me get this straight:

you think stubbs is scum, because stubbs thinks you may be scum? did you post anywhere on this site between your unvote and the lynch?

[don_johnson]

I also kind of think Venmar is being deliberately obtuse about whether voting a scum buddy when said player won't be lynched that day helps the scum team in the long run. It's a great time to vote for fellow scum when it has no effect, yet you're on record being against them. That Venmar doesn't acknowledge the possibility makes me uneasy.

^^ right? same with wr.

[don_johnson]

just did some looking, and penguin was out of all his games between his unvote and the lynch. if someone wants to lay out a case on penguin I will listen, but I don't think its as strong as cases against others.

[don_johnson]

all I am arguing is that it is likely that one of lords' scumbuddies saw what was happening, and then positioned themselves on the wagon they knew would flip scum. that's it. its not rocket science. if no one agrees with me then so be it. your time would be better spent telling me who is scum than trying to argue against me. my argument is reasonable. if it were unreasdonable, or if you thought I was scum, then arguing against me would make sense. but you know I am town. everyone knows I am town. arguing against me just reinforces whatever scum read I have of you. tell me who you think is scum and why. see, you ranked my lynch pool list, but I have yet to see a decent case against anyone today.

[don_johnson]

slaan: wr said they believed venmar was town. I was presenting the hypothetical. I am personally not sold on venmar town. right now, I think wr is scum. if that is the case then venmar is town. nacho is town, stubbs is town, etc. so I am interested in hearing from everyone.

So, if Venmar is town WR is scum?
Then if WR is town Venmar is scum?

I think its likely that one of the scum team saw the writing on the wall and positioned themselves on a scumwagon in order to look good. it's called "bussing". its quite common in mafia. their votes came at a time when lords was not really in danger of being lynched, but certainly in danger of being shot. neither vote made much sense to me. venmar had earlier been on the dj side of the lords/dj spat, and seemed to switch to lords side without much reasoning. then he turned around and voted lords at deadline. venmar never explained why he voted lords. he wrote a big long post about why he wasn't voting mastin or something, and then dropped a vote on scum.

Based on purely the fact they ended up on Lords on D1? One of those 2 has to be scum?

not just that they ended up there. its how they ended up there and its entirely related to their day 1 play.

not PV who has done nothing and the only person (I think) not to vote scum on D1. Or Stubbs who has done practically nothing? What about Nacho and his weak cases followed by not managing to vote ANYONE on Day 1? which is clearly beyond terrible.

none strike me as scum. in fact, I would pick nacho over stubbs and PV atm.

Your argument really isn't that strong to carry such weight.

I don't see a better one.

[don_johnson]

venmar never explained why he voted lords. he wrote a big long post about why he wasn't voting mastin or something, and then dropped a vote on scum.

this was about wr, not venmar. I don't remember venmar's lords vote.

[don_johnson]

please note wr defending himself against this case. he is shielding venmar as well because he knows if he accepts the logic, then he is just as guilty. so he is fighting the entire argument. if I was in his position, I would be accepting the logic and defending myself. he isn't doing this. he is trying to stonewall the entire argument. if he is scum then he knows venmar is town and so he is not only defending himself, but he is buddying a townie. seriously. wr needs a second look.

p-edit: seriously? you're going to blame your low participation on hydra dissonance AGAIN? you are scum.

has anyone seen venmar?

[don_johnson]

good boy. now get to work.

[don_johnson]

you guys think nacho might be scum here? I do recall him pushing the early lords quicklynch argument.

nacho: you scum, bro?

[don_johnson]

Wide Right, Venmar, Nacho, Nero, fitz
^Peak of the Nero wagon.

^^ this is worth seeing. scratch out nero and fitz and you have a pretty decent lynch pool.

also, I notice some people calling stubbs out. if stubbs is scum, then voodoo lady called out both her scumbuddies in post 147. bussing both your partners super early? I think its more likely that voodoo bussed lords and protected her other buddy.

@ venmar vote:

hahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

[don_johnson]

I will need to reread the reasoning behind the votes on Lord, my vote will probably find itself on Fitz or Lord I think.

^^ before this post there is no mention of lords whatsoever from venmar.

venmar votes fitz. then posts this:

I would like to say, that the notion that Lord is our definite or lynch today, and/oror that he will be, is definitely NOT the way I feel.

^^ then this in a wall post with no explanation.

then this:

Leaning Scum:
Lords of Mhystery
ferretlover

then this(after tunneling fitz):

I got summer school, but i'd be lying if I didn't say i've just extremely lazy for this past week.

Mastin is a terrible lynch. I don't like Peregrine's reads list because I don't agree with the majority of it. Fitz should not be considered town by anyone until proven via night, so he's null for the time being.

Right now, Don_johnson, Stubbs, Slandaar, Mastin2, and Wide Right are probably town. Nachomamma's slot and Nero are leaning town.

Ferret and Peregrine are null until i get a better read on them. Fitz has fallen into this pile as well for the time being.

Voodoo and Lords would be my choices for todays lynch.

I'll come back with a vote later once i recompose.

nailed both scum. and with absolutely zero reasoning.

then there's this:

Don has dropped from my town pile.

then this:

O I completely forgot Voodoo claimed...

Ok well that's fair, but seriously I WILL NOT vote for Mastin, like no way. Instead, I would rather vote for Nero but the deadline is choking.

and then of course a vote on lords.

and that's where he ended his day 1. i'm sure venmar is pretty good, but to call out two scum on day 1(and now he is kind of implying that he nailed the entire scumteam on day 1, kudos!) but seriously...

go back and find the cases he laid out against voodoo and lords. they are right here:

...

[don_johnson]

and notice how ferret made it into his "leaning scum" pile. you know, ferret, the slot that was pretty inactive. the guy who was against massclaim. speaking of, do you guys remember when venmar was asking about a massclaim? super early on...

[don_johnson]

you took the time to make a case on fitz. you even took the time to later point out that you made a case on fitz. feel free to make a case on don.

[don_johnson]

slaan: I made my stance on the mastin lynch extremely clear. i'm not rehashing it. if you have a more specific question, by all means...

nacho: do you think any sane or competent townie would think I am scum at this point? please give venmar a second look. just cause he piled all the townies into his town reads, doesn't mean he's good. he had two players in his scumpile and they were completely unexplained. and they were both scum. seriously. its very odd to say the least. as for penguin, I don't know, I only have my recent game with him and he seems to be playing the same. the fact that he's sees the same bullshit I do is hard to reconcile if he's scum. I mean, obviously, it would just be a case of buddying, but I could tell lords was scum early on by the quality of their arguments. venmar has not made a quality argument yet. the only case he presented was against fitz, and its not all that good. now he's trying to say that I am scum. after all this shit? djscum? nah. anyone with half a brain can see that ain't possible. so it just doesn't compute from venmar's perspective. but whatevz. if you guys want to lynch penguin I ain't gonna stop you.

[don_johnson]

nice misrep ven. but I am not suspecting you because of your reads being good. I am suspecting you because you called out 2/3 of the scum team on day 1... without a single fucking logical reason. you played both sides of the lords/dj spat. and now you are trying to lynch someone who is obvious town.

slaan: please pay attention. if you honestly think I could be scum with lords this game then you are wholly incompetent.

nacho: whatevz.

[don_johnson]

venmar.

[don_johnson]

oh. I see. I must be mistaken. you clearly did not misrep my case against you when you stated:

So I have to be scum because my reads are good?

when the actual case against you was:

I will need to reread the reasoning behind the votes on Lord, my vote will probably find itself on Fitz or Lord I think.

^^ before this post there is no mention of lords whatsoever from venmar.

venmar votes fitz. then posts this:

I would like to say, that the notion that Lord is our definite or lynch today, and/oror that he will be, is definitely NOT the way I feel.

^^ then this in a wall post with no explanation.

then this:

Leaning Scum:
Lords of Mhystery
ferretlover

then this(after tunneling fitz):

I got summer school, but i'd be lying if I didn't say i've just extremely lazy for this past week.

Mastin is a terrible lynch. I don't like Peregrine's reads list because I don't agree with the majority of it. Fitz should not be considered town by anyone until proven via night, so he's null for the time being.

Right now, Don_johnson, Stubbs, Slandaar, Mastin2, and Wide Right are probably town. Nachomamma's slot and Nero are leaning town.

Ferret and Peregrine are null until i get a better read on them. Fitz has fallen into this pile as well for the time being.

Voodoo and Lords would be my choices for todays lynch.

I'll come back with a vote later once i recompose.

nailed both scum. and with absolutely zero reasoning.

then there's this:

Don has dropped from my town pile.

then this:

O I completely forgot Voodoo claimed...

Ok well that's fair, but seriously I WILL NOT vote for Mastin, like no way. Instead, I would rather vote for Nero but the deadline is choking.

and then of course a vote on lords.

and that's where he ended his day 1. i'm sure venmar is pretty good, but to call out two scum on day 1(and now he is kind of implying that he nailed the entire scumteam on day 1, kudos!) but seriously...

go back and find the cases he laid out against voodoo and lords. they are right here:

...

which could be summarized as:

I am suspecting you because you called out 2/3 of the scum team on day 1... without a single fucking logical reason. you played both sides of the lords/dj spat. and now you are trying to lynch someone who is obvious town.

so yeah. I must be mistaken. your reads are awesome. [/sarcasm]

so again: any time you want to make a case against me, feel free. you said something about making cases 50% of the time. in this game you are less than 25%.

everyone: I am fine if you want to lynch wr first, but I am pretty sure venmar is scum here. so whatevz.

[don_johnson]

don't forget how you planted your vote on scum near deadline when they were in no real danger of getting lynched. continue to ignore my logical reasoning and deflect it with ad hom. sounds kind of familiar. where have I heard this song and dance before? oh yeah. lordsyboy. that's where.

please do explain

why

you think i'm scum at any point in time. I would really love to see you build some sort of case here. draw the connections between me and lords. that would be great.

[don_johnson]

mod: venmar is voting me, not venmar.

[don_johnson]

Wide Right is the scum, lets lynch them and end the game. If it doesn't end... well then I will be dead, so, that is your problem!

Stop being retarded and work with us.

says the guy not doing anything.

[don_johnson]

Let me give you a word of advice; just because you're a generally accepted townread; doesn't mean you're quite right at everything, nor does it mean that you should feel the need to boss people around into doing work when you are unable or unwilling to do it yourself.

Try being a productive townie, thanks!

oh the irony. apparently you missed the part where I laid out my case against venmar, who happens to be one of my top two suspects. you must have also missed my wagon analysis and my case against you. I have been on every lynch wagon. if you care to dust off my iso, you would probably notice a huge level of activity. considering you are not voting, not naming suspects, and basically trying to avoid getting lynched without ruffling any feathers here, I would say you would be better off following your own advice. but its probably really hard to be a productive "townie" when you are actually scum and your buddies are dead.

[don_johnson]

and venmar has still not produced a case.

venmar: it is nice to see you finally admit that I do have a point about the wagon analysis. now please apply that point to wide right. also, I am not obvtown because of my play. look at the interaction with lords. that is what makes me obvtown. but whatevz. keep avoiding todays field of suspects by tunneling on me and not producing a coherent case. it worked out really well for lords.

[don_johnson]

Link me. If it's anything like PV's "wagon analysis", it sucks.

i'm referring to my theory that one of you or venmar is scum for jumping the lords wagon near deadline when lords was in no danger of being lynched. also, PV is conftown imo. either you are town, or you are scum. if you are scum, then everyone else is town. if you are town, scum most likely isn't on your wagon and will most likely avoid your wagon or jump it late. the final scum will be marked with indecisiveness. kind of like how you are acting now. they can't afford to piss anybody off.

Not a boasting point. It isn't hard to place a vote on a wagon.

Activity =/= pro-town content.

your accusation was that you wanted me to "try and be a productive townie." high activity and a concrete vote trail
are two ways one can be a productive townie. considering I called out one scum on day 1 and spent the majority of my time trying to convince people to vote him, and then was able to decipher the voodoo lynch along with others, is a pretty good case for me being a productive townie. so again: feel free to build a case against me. I have made my opinions well known, I answer every question tossed my way. what more should I do?

I've named suspects. Bork has named suspects. Instead, you and others like you decide you're just going to go mislynch crazy and push on us and Venmar.

"mislynch crazy" is a funny way to put it. kind of implies that you know venmar is town. what is it about venmar's play that has you convinced they are a mislynch? and please, ftr, just post your list of suspects with maybe a line or two of reasoning with each one. thanks.

[don_johnson]

hi stubbs. you should put wr to L-1.

p-edit: wr, you are starting to sound like lords. maybe its me?

*introspective far away look*

[don_johnson]

I don't jump popular wagons. I MAKE them popular.

p-edit: surprisingly chilly.

[don_johnson]

p-edit: surprisingly chilly.

[don_johnson]

Seriously your ego has massively over-inflated in the past two day phases.

you have no idea. i'm on a pretty good tear of town wins. I realize i'm just above a .500 average in my sig, but I think I was like 16-26 at one point. i'm. just. that. good.

[don_johnson]

its probably the one where you are hanging from a noose and your tongue is hanging out.

[don_johnson]

dammit, don. this is why you don't have any friends.

[don_johnson]

Don who is scum when Venmar and I flip town?

if you guys are town then it would depend on who is still alive. my guess would be nacho. their game is... lacking. maybe stubbs, but I doubt that.

here's my list, scummiest to town(and by "scummiest" I mean "most likely to be scum"):


Nacho
Penguin
Stubbs
PV

[don_johnson]

Don when you end up in LYLO with PV and Stubbs, remember; there's a reason you lived that long.

to avenge your untimely and unfair death with my wicked good reading skills? you underestimate me.

[don_johnson]

dead thread is dead boyz. lets just lynch wr. seriously. his exasperation sounds much more like frustrated scum than it does frustrated town. when you think about it, we are in a really good position here so there really shouldn't be a need for a townie to be frustrated today even if they are getting mislynched. wr is getting pissed cause they are going to lose. and tbh, they have played a pretty good game. you just can't help it when the evidence piles up.

[don_johnson]

its really the reasoning that's lacking. that would help your case out. a lot.

[don_johnson]

unvote

i'm gonna do a full reread before I vote again. I just can't wrap my head around PV or Stubbs being scum. pretty convinced atm that its one of wr, venmar, or nacho. penguin is really my wildcard here. I need to look back.

p-edit: nacho is the kind of player who gets more and more suspicious the longer he stays alive. he may actually be our best lynch today. granted, our power roles were all outed early so that wipes nacho from the nk list, but this may be the quietest I have seen nacho in a loonng time.

[don_johnson]

So? He can take himself off L-1 if he gets nervous.

^^ ugh.

[don_johnson]

Nacho is town as FUCK right now, trust me on this.

why? imo, he's playing the fringe and letting everyone else do the work. for day 1, that's acceptable, but at this point? I don't know. I think in our brains, we all really

want

nacho to be town. but i'll have to consider this in my reread. I mean, what are we basing all of this on? all the concrete evidence imo points to ven, wr, or nacho. I can't see a case on stubbs or PV and penguin is, well same old penguin I remember: indecisive and confused.

[don_johnson]

this doesn't feel like town nacho to me. doesn't feel like scum nacho either to be fair, but it certainly doesn't feel like town nacho.

I need more nacho.

also, ven, nacho is a good scumhunter, so why are you disagreeing with his reads?

[don_johnson]

its actually a pretty good point. you trying to debunk it makes it more likely PV is right. when lords was close to getting lynched, you were on the wagon with three townies and a scum. you were one of the ones to get off. do you remember why you got off? cause you totally got back on once the mastin lynch seemed pretty secure.

p-edit: why not?

[don_johnson]

yeah but nacho has me as pretty obvtown. I seem to be your biggest scumread.

wr: just trying to sort out the dissonance here. not sure why you are ignoring PV's perfectly logical point. I mean, its not break the bank logic gold, but it certainly makes sense and is justifiable. you left the scum wagon to pursue the town wagon. its kind of text book.

[don_johnson]

what has you convinced that wr is town? short answr would be fine, I have to leave in a minute.

[don_johnson]

slaan is conftown. I can compromise on the penguin lynch as he is my wildcard, but how you have me in your lynchpool after the interactions with lords is truly beyond me. that coupled with all of my other points is what keeps you in my lynch pool. honestly I think its either you or wr, but I've been wrong before.

p-edit: ok. that's reasonable.

vote: penguin

turn it up pen, i'll be back later and hope to get in a reread soon.

[don_johnson]

um, I tried to get lords lynched for the majority of day 1. I rode the wagon til the wheels fell off. then I moved. compromising is part of playing as smart town. I believed whole heartedly that fitz was vig. honestly its just my playstyle. I actively try not to be paranoid because I feel that paranoia destroys town.

nacho: your case on PV looks a lot like the case on Venmar. talk about someone who supported lynching both his scumbuddies but never actually did anything about it. seriously. I have no idea where the townread on ven comes from. I mean, its possible, but I just don't see a big difference there. but whatevz. penguin is probably scum here.

[don_johnson]

please apply context to those votes. I don't recall ven pushing those wagons, and it would be interesting to see when those votes were placed. i.e. his vote on lords was at the end of the day when the mastin lynch was all but going through. I don't recall when the voodoo lynch was, but it was probably at a time when the voodoo lynch wasn't popular. i.e. he is supporting both the lynches of his buddies without putting them in any real danger. I don't know. let's hear what PV has to say.

[don_johnson]

nacho you are starting to sound like scum. posting those votes out of context is not townnacho behavior. reducing me from town as fuck to a 1 day pass, playing me against venmar...

whatevz. PV. speak.

[don_johnson]

venmar's votes were soft. neither of his votes on scum had any chance at lynching his suspects.

unvote, vote: nacho

this is not the town nacho I know.

[don_johnson]

ha ha. good luck guys.

unvote

[don_johnson]

no one is listening to me.

Venmar, WR, Nacho

^^ pretty sure scum is nestled amongst these three. there is absolutely no reason to think dj is scum in this game. the lords/dj arguments were extremely genuine. these three players are ignoring that. go ahead and lynch me. i'm done fighting. no one listened to me when I pointed it out with lords and no one is listening to me now. lynch wr. if he's town, lynch ven, if he's town lynch nacho. how many mislynches do we have left?

[don_johnson]

I don't see the case on PV. his posts have seemed town to me. your case on why he is scum, can also be applied to both of my top suspects going into today(and in my opinion, much moreso to my suspects than to PV). but you are ignoring that.

reset all you want. djscum makes no sense. but whatevz.

[don_johnson]

I have read like everyone in this game as scum at one point or another ... except Venmar.

You better be town Venmar!

^^ this astounds me.

wr: when the chips were down, you were bailing on the lords wagon. you got back on at an uber convenient time.

WHY DOES NOONE SEE THAT!?!? VENMAR AND WR JUMPED THE LORDS WAGON MOMENTS BEFORE A MISLYNCH WHEN LORDS WAS IN NO DANGER OF BEING LYNCHED BUT CERTAINLY IN DANGER OF BEING VIGGED. ONE OF THOSE TWO ARE THE MOST LIKELY FINAL SCUM. NACHO IS BEING DELIBERATELY OBTUSE AND DIFFICULT. IF WR AND VEN ARE NOT SCUM THEN NACHO IS NEXT MOST LIKELY.

vote:don_johnson

p-edit: that's a silly question.

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote:wr

meh. just looked back through his iso. don't like it. on and off wagons with little explanation. his exit from the lords wagon originally is rather silly. ven is giving me flak about believing the fitz claim, but wr swallowed the VL claim without a flinch. Ven ain't sayin shit about that. wr ain't defending me like they should considering they professed the same viewpoint I had at the time.

p-edit: plurality isn't an excuse. please show me where you campaigned for the lords lynch... cause you didn't. you dropped the vote on without even mentioning why and never followed up. if you had wanted the lords lynch you would worked for it. but you didn't.

[don_johnson]

I don't see the case on PV. his posts have seemed town to me.

No, why have they seemed town to you?

cause they haven't done anything scummy imo.

wr: you made exactly one post after your lords vote which contained any mention of lords. you made no push for the wagon.

[don_johnson]

i'll iso him quick.

[don_johnson]

I see nothing real scummy. lack of activity maybe. he did have lords and voodoo in lynch pools, lords was explained. I guess explanation of his VL scum read was a bit lacking. what confuses me about you, nacho, is that you don't seem to acknowledge my points regarding ven and wr. they are along a similar vein.

[don_johnson]

wr: you made exactly one post after your lords vote which contained any mention of lords. you made no push for the wagon.

And from this you're deducing that I in actuality did not want him lynched instead of simply not being terribly sure about anything yet like the post with the vote in it pretty strongly made clear?

it looks like posturing to me. had you wanted lords lynched, you would have done more than just lay a virtually unexplained vote on his wagon and then ignored him. you would have campaigned.

VL was coming out in the wash on D2 or D3 and it made little sense to lynch her before D2 (and if Nero had investigated N1 like he should have then it would've been fuckin' hunky dory on D2 moreso than it turned out, which IMO was pretty good.)

so?

[don_johnson]

hey, you guys remember way back when WR was campaigning for a no lynch over lynching VL?

[don_johnson]

The point is that there WAS plenty of time between that plurality announcement and a lynch, time enough for something to have been done about it. There is no fucking way that someone can honestly argue that Venmar or I were placing a throwaway vote on Lords for the fuck of it.

considering that all either of you did was place a vote and provide zero follow-up or reasoning, it seems like a very legitimate argument imo.

[don_johnson]

I see nothing real scummy. lack of activity maybe. he did have lords and voodoo in lynch pools, lords was explained. I guess explanation of his VL scum read was a bit lacking. what confuses me about you, nacho, is that you don't seem to acknowledge my points regarding ven and wr. they are along a similar vein.

wr is town by meta and i'm willing to sacrifice my dick to the gods of the atlantic ocean if those two are scum
ven is also town; I love the way he pushes his townread on me, I love the way that he pushes things extremely righteously and then gets bored of pushing them quickly in typical venmar town fashion, and I do think that the last minute herpderp wagon on Lords by Venmar and Wide Right was unlikely for the third scumbuddy out of the dance of hate between VL/Mhystery to throw a piss poor bus into the middle of an AMAZING one. And what you're seeing is nothing real scummy but what I'm seeing is nothing real townie and that makes me hurt.

Because whereas Slandaar's seen scum in everyone in the game so far despite Venny, I've seen town in everyone in the game so far besides PeregrineV. And I seriously have no idea why we can't just go with the obvious choice and kill the shit out of him

I won't stop you. if you get him to L-1 I may even hammer for you. but I can't campaign for him when i don't see it. if you can't see WR for all of their bullshit i can't help you. No lynch? that was a terrible idea. it ONLY benefit scum.

[don_johnson]

VL was the obvscum out of the claims. no way scumNero was cc-ing the IC with a role that didn't exist. please stop pushing such silly sentiment. what you wanted was to get your scumbuddy to nightphase so you could work out a plan to give you the best chance of winning. its sad, really.

[don_johnson]

VL was the obvscum out of the claims. no way scumNero was cc-ing the IC with a role that didn't exist. please stop pushing such silly sentiment. what you wanted was to get your scumbuddy to nightphase so you could work out a plan to give you the best chance of winning. its sad, really.

or you know, I wanted to give scum the chance to FUCK UP, take their chances with the CC, and not kill nero so that he would get a result.

um what? VL was just about confscum. they shoot ICslaan and Nero gets results, but then needs to be lynched for us to believe them. all it did was prolong the 50/50 shot we had at lynching between VL and Nero. all a no lynch accomplished was letting scum live another nightphase and give them time to try and work something out to their advantage.

no lynch gave scum a very precious resource: time to think.

[don_johnson]

Slandaar, I've never been trying to make the argument that I'm (or Venmar is) automatically town because this plurality thing existed. I AM arguing that

1) It is dishonest to argue that we totally knew Lords was not getting lynched at the time either of us voted
2) There was a legitimate chance to steer that wagon away from mastin once that announcement DID happen and the fact that don didn't do that despite the fact he said he was thinking about it demands scrutiny.

Get your vote off town.

i was giving fitz his two shots. mastin wasn't terribly townie imo. how many times did you ask me to move to that lords wagon at the end of the day? how many times did you post a case on lords at the end of the day? how many votes did you try and sway towards lords at the end of the day?

[don_johnson]

Like seriously don? One night of nighttalk? That was my grand scum payoff by advocating NL?

p-edit:

one more night of talk and a free kill. sending town into the next day with one less townie and the same fucking pickle they had the day before. yup. that was your plan.

[don_johnson]

we no lynch:

night phase-

scum shoots slaan.
nero investigates ven

next day: 9 alive

don_johnson
PeregrineV,
Venmar
Nachomamma8
penguin_alien
StubbsKVM
Wide Right
VL
Nero Cain

VL claims track of nero to Slaan. Nero claims inno on ven.

VL is lynched, ven is nk

next day: 7 alive

don_johnson
PeregrineV
Nachomamma8
penguin_alien
StubbsKVM
Wide Right
Nero Cain(conftown)

dj is lynched, nero nk

5 alive:

PeregrineV
Nachomamma8
penguin_alien
StubbsKVM
Wide Right

none confirmed.

maybe this isn't right. point is, no lynch gave scum another night to think.

[don_johnson]

Oh here's this:

meh. with 10 alive and two scum all you're doing is prolonging the inevitable. if nero is town we are not getting a result. and if you think nero is town and slaan is town, then voodoo is scum. so we may as well lynch voodoo. no lynch isn't terrible idea, but its certainly not optimal here. no lynching also robs us of potential wagon analysis on a scum or town pr. no lynch does not increase town chance of win. it gives scum more time to think and plan.

slaan: please bold your claim and have the mod confirm you.

remember when you made this post? like you acknowledged that you at least mayyyyyyyybe knew what I was trying to do?

yes. this post explains why no lynch was stupid. thanks for bringing it up. no lynch robbed us of wagon analysis, did not increase town's chance of winning, and gave scum more time to think.

you argued against lynching confscumvoodoo.

[don_johnson]

nero was voting venmar before the lynch.

[don_johnson]

scum probably would have actually just shot nero. leaving us with confslaan. basically same situation as the day before except that VL would be even more confscum meaning his wagon would be even more meaningless. the fact that you fought against lynching Voodoo is scummy.

p-edit:

ven- i agree

wr- um, no. my model was based on who it looked like was at the top of Nero's suspicion list. that's all. your fantasy of Nero getting off an investigation is what's funny here.

[don_johnson]

vote me bitches. its just going to make things worse. if all of you are town then i'm pretty confident we'll win anyway, i just can't believe that all three of you are.

[don_johnson]

and scum would have survived a night to help each other scheme. and town's chances of winning would not have increased. and we would have had no wagon analysis on VL. which is something you seem to be ignoring. why is that? probably because when you analyze the VL wagon, the guy who was arguing for a no lynch instead of a VL lynch looks scummy...

[don_johnson]

As has already been said it was not a plurality lynch game when he tried to 'rekindle' so the plurality defence is again invalid.

The point is that I don't require a defense; don is the one making the claim that rekindling it when I did makes me (or venmar, depending on what mood don's in) scum.

no. don is not saying you "rekindled" anything. don is saying that you postured. had you done anything besides just place your vote on him, then that could have been "rekindling". but as it stands, all you did was place your vote on someone who had a good chance at being vigged, zero chance of being lynched.

Would WR-scum help dismantle the Lords wagon and then try to spontaneously rekindle it again near deadline in a PLURALITY LYNCH game? I think not.

regardless of the "plurality" factor, wr did nothing to push the wagon. all they did was vote. your vote is honestly more believeable in that situation when you look at the context(i.e. you voted after I voiced some support), so at least you were voting with momentum. wr voted without so much as a word as to why they were voting, and then failed to follow-up AT ALL.

but whatevz.

[don_johnson]

Would WR-scum help dismantle the Lords wagon and then try to spontaneously rekindle it again near deadline in a PLURALITY LYNCH game? I think not.

The inverse is much more relevant: would scum don help dismantle it and then deliberately avoid it when it gained traction close to deadline in a plurality lynch game when he could simply stay the course, despite talking about how he was willing to get back on AND the huge back and forth he had with lords D1? I think so.

part of what you're missing here is that don didn't help dismantle it. don rode it til the wheels fell the fuck off and only unvoted lords out of exasperation and frustration.

[don_johnson]

I wasn't implying that I had any influence on your vote. just pointing out that you voted with momentum. but whatevz. if you are tunneled on me then so be it. there isn't much I can do anymore. I have laid out my piece.

PV's recent posts make perfect fucking sense. whichever of you guys are town are just plain not paying attention. nacho- posts like his recent ones are what makes me think he's town. it is literally blowing my mind that two out of three of you are actually town.

slaandar: where are you reading PV?

[don_johnson]

wr>venmar>nacho

if anyone else is scum I am fine with you winning. ^^ these three fuckers may not win. please and thank you.

[don_johnson]

disagreeing with your logic and calling you out for AVOIDING a scum lynch is not misrepping. but I love that you throw that term out there in such a hypocritical fashion.

[don_johnson]

AVOIDING a scum lynch

That is a misrep because it totally fucking disregards what I have very clearly explained I was trying to do.

Jesus Christ.

no. its my opinion. FACT: you fought for a NO LYNCH over a SCUM LYNCH.

YOU AVOIDED BOTH OF THE SCUM LYNCHES FFS STOP BEING HYPOCRITICAL

NO. I CAMPAIGNED FOR A LORDS LYNCH QUITE AGGRESSIVELY AND WAS ONE OF THE LAST TO LEAVE THE WAGON. I WAS ON THE VOODOO LYNCH. ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF YOUR INABILITY TO COMPREHEND THE GOINGS ON OF THIS GAME.

[don_johnson]

FACT: you fought for a NO LYNCH over a SCUM LYNCH.

Sure did.

[don_johnson]

wr: if you are scum, then your push for a no lynch was scum motivated. why are you freaking out about a really obvious conclusion such as that? if you're not scum then you have nothing to worry about. but instead of trying to figure things out you are spending all your energy trying to discredit my argument.

VOTE: PV

THIS MOTHERFUCKER IS TOWN.

OMGZ DJ IS SO SCUMMY FOR HAMMERING A TOWN READ!!!!!

[don_johnson]

scum is scum.

[don_johnson]

now everybody be quiet and hold hands while we wait for the mod to come back.
there is too much stupidity in the thread right now.

^fixed

[don_johnson]

mind=blown

right on, wr. no hard feelings. I like beer!

thank you to the rest of town for keeping us on track. gg guys!

[don_johnson]

bravo, nero.