Open 505: Pick Your Poison (Game over)

[Wide Right]

People I would lynch with our remaining lynches: {

don

, pv,

nacho

}

People I want to avoid lynching: {Venmar, Stubbs,

penguin

}

bold: stronger read, italic: weaker read

[Wide Right]

the lords/dj arguments were extremely genuine.

I know this might be shocking, but it is entirely viable to make cogent arguments against scum players as either alignment (christ Nacho, this is EXACTLY what you were accusing AA/don/me of in popcorn). The important part is how your reads formed by those arguments actually 1) maintain their own consistency and 2) match your voting records after considering the flips we've gotten so far.

Plenty of people listened to you with regard to Lords. You ignored the wagon when the chips were down and my last post very well outlines how that whole thing went down.

[Wide Right]

Those of you saying DJ can't be scum because you've had it beat into your head all game: this is a mental block. Do a hard reset. If you then still think I'm wrong, you owe it to the rest of us to engage me on that point.

[Wide Right]

^ the heck?

Anything else to say?

[Wide Right]

fuck I'm turning into buldermar

[Wide Right]

WHY DOES NOONE SEE THAT!?!? VENMAR AND WR JUMPED THE LORDS WAGON MOMENTS BEFORE A MISLYNCH WHEN LORDS WAS IN NO DANGER OF BEING LYNCHED BUT CERTAINLY IN DANGER OF BEING VIGGED. ONE OF THOSE TWO ARE THE MOST LIKELY FINAL SCUM. NACHO IS BEING DELIBERATELY OBTUSE AND DIFFICULT. IF WR AND VEN ARE NOT SCUM THEN NACHO IS NEXT MOST LIKELY.

I also kind of think Venmar is being deliberately obtuse about whether voting a scum buddy when said player won't be lynched that day helps the scum team in the long run. It's a great time to vote for fellow scum when it has no effect, yet you're on record being against them. That Venmar doesn't acknowledge the possibility makes me uneasy.

Once again, as my explanation was ignored before, plurrrrrrrrrallllllllityyyyyyyyy game.

He

would

have been lynched if he'd manage to outgrow the mastin wagon in the amount of time we had until the deadline.

I voted lords in #707 on July 8, 9:45 PM CDT. I voted Lords and not someone else because I knew that was a wagon that had potential to get some legs on it in the amount of time we had due to previous wagon on him and popular opinion and I was actively trying to save mastin and Nacho's behest (I explained this in the post). I actually thought Nacho would be on there too.

Venmar followed me onto Lords on July 9, 10:02 PM CDT, about 24 hours later.

The deadline was July 11, 4:26 AM CDT. Around 30 hours after Venmar hopped on Lords, and 54 hours after I hopped on Lords.

Do you (penguin/Don) seriously want to keep making the argument that we both totally knew that lynch wasn't going to happen?

[Wide Right]

wr: you made exactly one post after your lords vote which contained any mention of lords. you made no push for the wagon.

And from this you're deducing that I in actuality did not want him lynched instead of simply not being terribly sure about anything yet like the post with the vote in it pretty strongly made clear?

VL was coming out in the wash on D2 or D3 and it made little sense to lynch her before D2 (and if Nero had investigated N1 like he should have then it would've been fuckin' hunky dory on D2 moreso than it turned out, which IMO was pretty good.)

[Wide Right]

This was not until shortly before D1 Deadline thus any arguments about plurality must ensure they stick to this timeline.

AA posted about plurality first about right after I voted, so no I did not vote with the express intent of overturning mastin's plurality, but even so, this was over 2 whole fucking days until deadline.

The point is that there WAS plenty of time between that plurality announcement and a lynch, time enough for something to have been done about it. There is no fucking way that someone can honestly argue that Venmar or I were placing a throwaway vote on Lords for the fuck of it.

[Wide Right]

it looks like posturing to me. had you wanted lords lynched, you would have done more than just lay a virtually unexplained vote on his wagon and then ignored him. you would have campaigned.

Says who? It was Day 1 and I didn't have strong enough opinions to do that.

[Wide Right]

hey, you guys remember way back when WR was campaigning for a no lynch over lynching VL?

This was a good move and anyone who argues otherwise is objectively wrong.

[Wide Right]

714 is the first mention I can find of the plurality lynch.

[Wide Right]

I won't stop you. if you get him to L-1 I may even hammer for you. but I can't campaign for him when i don't see it. if you can't see WR for all of their bullshit i can't help you. No lynch? that was a terrible idea. it ONLY benefit scum.

explain fucking exactly how that benefit scum

I

fucking

dare

you

[Wide Right]

VL was the obvscum out of the claims. no way scumNero was cc-ing the IC with a role that didn't exist. please stop pushing such silly sentiment. what you wanted was to get your scumbuddy to nightphase so you could work out a plan to give you the best chance of winning. its sad, really.

or you know, I wanted to give scum the chance to FUCK UP, take their chances with the CC, and not kill nero so that he would get a result.

[Wide Right]

last minute herpderp wagon

You were directly advocating for this herpderp wagon.

[Wide Right]

Slandaar, I've never been trying to make the argument that I'm (or Venmar is) automatically town because this plurality thing existed. I AM arguing that

1) It is dishonest to argue that we totally knew Lords was not getting lynched at the time either of us voted
2) There was a legitimate chance to steer that wagon away from mastin once that announcement DID happen and the fact that don didn't do that despite the fact he said he was thinking about it demands scrutiny.

Get your vote off town.

[Wide Right]

Like seriously don? One night of nighttalk? That was my grand scum payoff by advocating NL?

p-edit:

[Wide Right]

how many times did you ask me to move to that lords wagon at the end of the day? how many times did you post a case on lords at the end of the day? how many votes did you try and sway towards lords at the end of the day?

So it's my fault you didn't vote Lords after all that shit you went through with him?

Fucking

really?

p-edit: MATH IS HARD MAN DEM EVEN NUMBAS WTF IS THAT SHIT

[Wide Right]

Oh here's this:

meh. with 10 alive and two scum all you're doing is prolonging the inevitable. if nero is town we are not getting a result. and if you think nero is town and slaan is town, then voodoo is scum. so we may as well lynch voodoo. no lynch isn't terrible idea, but its certainly not optimal here. no lynching also robs us of potential wagon analysis on a scum or town pr. no lynch does not increase town chance of win. it gives scum more time to think and plan.

slaan: please bold your claim and have the mod confirm you.

remember when you made this post? like you acknowledged that you at least mayyyyyyyybe knew what I was trying to do?

[Wide Right]

Sooooo are we lynching DJ>

fuck yes we are

[Wide Right]

we no lynch:

night phase-

scum shoots slaan.
nero investigates <someone, scum maybe? PV? Penguin? someone we might policy lynch in other circumstances?>

fixed. mission fucking accomplished. I didn't even read the rest of that.

[Wide Right]

yes. this post explains why no lynch was stupid. thanks for bringing it up. no lynch robbed us of wagon analysis, did not increase town's chance of winning, and gave scum more time to think.

you argued against lynching confscumvoodoo.

Yeah um if voodoo was confscum then wagon analysis didn't matter because people were just going to pile on anyway. Nothing about that changes from D2 to D3 after a no lynch, either.

I showed demonstrably how it may have increased town's chances of winning like 1 post ago.

I do not give an infinitesimal amount of fuck about how much time scum as to think.

[Wide Right]

Seriously nacho this is scum

[Wide Right]

nero was voting venmar before the lynch.

Wait are you arguing that it was a bad move based on who he might investigate and I took that into account when I suggested it?

Please tell me you're not doing that.

[Wide Right]

We will cross that bridge when we come to it, but as you can see he is second on my list right now (I can't promise that won't change.)

[Wide Right]

scum probably would have actually just shot nero.

They might have.

The point was that it turned a 100% chance of that happening into an unknown % that could not have been greater than 100%.

[Wide Right]

Who in this game has been so far has been using the VL wagon as admissible wagon analysis regardless of the fact that nero was still alive at the point? We lost fucking nothing.

But yeah man keep pushing that 1 more day of nighttalk point, it's totally more likely I wanted to save voodoo for 1 night than I wanted the hope of a cop investigation.

p-edit: ok TIL people don't like giving scum the chance to fuck up.

mother of fuck

p-p-edit: whatever

[Wide Right]

PV has been distant in every game I've ever seen him in, but this is my first experience with him where I'm not scum.

[Wide Right]

Everything #1220 on is bork

[Wide Right]

"At one point in the game Lords was at L-2. Since he flipped scum, then I have suspicion that his wagon was dismantled by scum. Of his 5 voters, 3 of them stopped voting him, and 2 stayed on. One that stayed on was scum. The other I have a strong townread on. Of the three that stopped voting him, 2 of those players flipped town. I strongly believe the last one might be scum."

yeah that's great; why do you believe that? cause it sounds good?

[Wide Right]

Looking back, I got off to pursue fitz.

303 you said you were sheeping Slandaar. That also weighed in my opinion.

Sure.

How is that inherently indicative of one alignment or another?

[Wide Right]

Would WR-scum help dismantle the Lords wagon and then try to spontaneously rekindle it again near deadline in a PLURALITY LYNCH game? I think not.

The inverse is much more relevant: would scum don help dismantle it and then deliberately avoid it when it gained traction close to deadline in a plurality lynch game when he could simply stay the course, despite talking about how he was willing to get back on AND the huge back and forth he had with lords D1? I think so.

[Wide Right]

As has already been said it was not a plurality lynch game when he tried to 'rekindle' so the plurality defence is again invalid.

The point is that I don't require a defense; don is the one making the claim that rekindling it when I did makes me (or venmar, depending on what mood don's in) scum.

[Wide Right]

So basically you're ignoring everything that I've said since you posted last? was that crap when you told me you'd listen to what I had to say, and you're instead relying on seriously one thing that says "herp derp 1 on 1 off a wagon at one arbitrary time" that you've barely scratched the surface on?

You don't think that's lazy?

[Wide Right]

Wait, back up to the part where I voted fitz after he claimed vig

because i fucking guarantee that never happened

[Wide Right]

Because, if that's so, I don't want lynch me or don.
My desire to lynch Nacho is more from "Not meeting expectations" which is barley overcoming an early townread I had on him.

People you want to avoid lynching would be my choices after you. So it looks like you're calling me lazy because I disagree with you.

How can I know you disagree with me (or what your reads are at all) if you

ignore what I say and do nothing but reiterate your VCA thing?

Does that fact that I in fact did not vote fitz after his vig claim (I actually immediately switched my vote off him, on looking) matter to you? Vig is objectively proveable in this setup so this is a pretty uninteresting point to me.

[Wide Right]

zero chance of being lynched.

[Wide Right]

Yeah I already went over all this and I don't believe you.

[Wide Right]

Don has blatantly misrepresented my obvious position about No Lynch D2 (despite the tone in #1006 admitting it's not a scummy thing to have done, and his terrible argument about "denying wagon analysis" on "confscum" which if he really were thinking about it honestly he'd realize is a silly premise in the first place) to the point where I just don't believe he can be town. That and all the other shit I've said.

We need to lynch him. I don't know what else to say about it.

[Wide Right]

AVOIDING a scum lynch

That is a misrep because it totally fucking disregards what I have very clearly explained I was trying to do.

Jesus Christ.

[Wide Right]

I'm not voting PV till he's around again.

[Wide Right]

no. its my opinion. FACT: you fought for a NO LYNCH over a SCUM LYNCH.

Sure did. That is not at all the same as "avoiding a scum lynch". You know damn well why that is, yet you continue to spin it like this was some master fucking plan to GAIN ONE NIGHT OF NIGHT TALK.

[Wide Right]

This is like beating my head against a wall. A big scummy wall.

I'm waiting for PV and in the meantime don can go bluster around more if he wants.

[Wide Right]

wr: if you are scum, then your push for a no lynch was scum motivated. why are you freaking out about a really obvious conclusion such as that? if you're not scum then you have nothing to worry about. but instead of trying to figure things out you are spending all your energy trying to discredit my argument.

tautological argument is tautological

[Wide Right]

And I know that's not what you asking, but I think I've said I don't think Don is scum.

If you need a reason to vote (note: Hammer) PV here it is

Hes talking about what he has said in the past not about his current read

Or put another way translate what PV said to a town PV
I know that isn't what you are asking but I think Don is town. (see the difference in tense)

I see what you're saying and was going to point out that I don't really see any tie to alignment from talking about a read he previously gave instead of his current read other than it comes off as slightly more defensive than normal but the point is moot now so we'll just watch for a flip.

[Wide Right]

there is too much anger, to much frustration in the thread right now.

This is not how I feel right now at all.

[Wide Right]

she didn't lock the thread

[Wide Right]

flip

flipflipflip

flip

do it

[Wide Right]

ffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

[Wide Right]

flurggghhh

[Wide Right]

[Wide Right]