Open 505: Pick Your Poison (Game over)

[Voodoo Lady]

Hi. I've played before with exactly one of y'all, so this should be interesting.

As an aside, loving the banner, Arc.

[Voodoo Lady]

Massclaim imo.

Hell no.

Why not?

We could get 3 confirmed town and narrow down lynch candidates while also optimising the PR's actions for N1/2. It also means scum literally cannot fakeclaim PR.

No, scum can always fakeclaim PRs in this set-up, what with them deciding which 3 PRs are at the town's disposal. Somebody'll get accused of fakeclaiming, sure, but doing that will out all our power roles to net one scum. So massclaiming probably isn't a good idea.

[Voodoo Lady]

Currently rereading through the thread, trying to get reads. Going to look at Nero's ISO in a minute to try and see whether he's scum or not. Leaning towards no. Don't have concrete reads on anyone at the moment bar Fitz, who I'm almost certain is town.

Nacho, I was going to ask you this right before the hard reset, but I'm still curious-- what was the motivation behind your vote on me?

VOTE: Ferret

Do you intend to explain your vote?

[Voodoo Lady]

Don J.'s argument about the smiley faces is totally nonsensical. I don't understand why you'd defend an easy-to-debunk point like that when your arguments about his PR parenthetical hold much more water. Willing to bet you're town, though.

Fitz is looking pretty good right now. Not much to go on with him, but I do like him calling out Lords' comment.

Lords are looking sort of scummy to me. Anyone who doesn't bother looking at the OP rubs me the wrong way. Thing with the quicklynches seems genuine. I can't wrap my head around why he's trying to defend Mastin, though.

Something that stood out to me--

don johnson, you came in here and said you agreed with the largest wagon, but you didn't put a vote down. Why is that?

Don didn't say he agreed with the wagon. All he did was agree with WR that Nero's post seemed obtuse.

Mastin:

(And I'm seriously beginning to question why we even bother with the PyP. Pretty much ANY competent scumteam is going to go with the exact same combo, of IC-vig-tracker. There's the smaaaaall outside chance that one of them can be replaced by a cop, but seriously, no competent scumteam is EVER going to pick the jailkeeper. )

Why speculate set-up at this point in the game? The quip about the jailkeeper strikes me as you trying to bait a tangential set-up debate from someone on the former scumteam. Not enough to get a scumread, but I'm side-eyeing you.

Nacho's 1v1 with Nero reads genuine. Going to guess that he's town.

I completely missed both of Peregrine's posts. Null for now, because I don't give reads on players with such non-presence. Explain your vote on Stubbs, for starters.

Stubbs is the other collective scumread.

Nearly voted for Nero too, but then spotted the third page.
Nero: time to claim or you're dead!

I read a post like this, see Stubbs is new around these parts, and assume that he's not used to the relatively slow pace of Mafiascum compared to some other fora out there. Stubbs hasn't done anything scummy other than not be used to the "house rules." Likely town.

Venmar hasn't posted very much but the points that he has made are pretty good.

Completely ambivalent on Wide Right.

Nero and Slandaar to come up next post since I have more to say about them. I think I got everyone else in this post.

(PS: are Sugar Cain and Nero Cain related in some way?)

[Voodoo Lady]

Hey look, Mastin posted three times in the half-hour it took to type all that up. I should probably learn to type faster.

I've got a better idea:

Lynch someone who helped contribute to the wagon, WITHOUT having laid a vote down. Someone, say, like...

Awesome. My other head decided to go get hammered. >.<

Anyway he was all up in arms to throw down a Nero Cain vote

, but instead, Ree, I got something else here, pal.

These guys!

QFT.

VOTE: Lords

[Voodoo Lady]

Nero, I'm voting you because you expected me to claim that I was scum last round without knowing whether alignments actually changed. Weird enough accusation on its own, but when Wide Right called you out for it, you immediately responded with #47, which was you posturing for a Wide Right vote although you were still voting me. And now you're self-voting because that observation was too much for you to handle or something.

Well I wouldn't know if alignments changed 'cause mine didn't. Though my accusation wasn't 100% serious. For Bork to go oh you towntold...but you're faking is lynch happy as fuck. And you were wigging out over having two votes on you which...why would you do that? You also ignored my question about Ferret.

vote: Wide Right

Okay, so I can see why Nero's wagon grew so quickly. This post alone contains some pretty gratuitous hedging (express suspicion towards Nacho, vote WR) and backtracking ("my accusation wasn't 100% serious???" Really??).

Who do you think should be lynched tomorrow when I flip town? You want to 1v me?

This is also a pretty classically scummy thing to say.

vote:nero

I AM NOT GOING TO CLAIM. I AM ALSO GOING TO JOIN THE LARGEST WAGONS FOR THE REST OF THE GAME. FUCKING LYNCH ME NOW. I DARE YOU!!!

This post is the one that is making it hard for me to give Nero a scumread... I couldn't see scum baiting a lynch like this. I mean, it could be an attempt to end D1 as fast as possible so his buddies wouldn't be able to expose themselves, but he knows full well that the rest of the town isn't going to lynch him this early in the day.

Everything that could be said about Nero has already been said. His towntell doesn't seem fabricated, but he's been saying really scummy things left and right.

I'm much more interested in Lords right now, as his towntell seems fabricated and he hasn't been properly questioned this game.

[Voodoo Lady]

Nacho, I was going to ask you this right before the hard reset, but I'm still curious-- what was the motivation behind your vote on me?

He was scum and wanted to lynch town?

What actually is the point of this question?

Yes, he was scum. But Mastin wasn't scum, and he knew that Nacho was going to change his vote. Besides, it's not as though he wouldn't have done that as town. (see post 29)

VOTE: Ferret

Do you intend to explain your vote?

I didn't but seems you asked in a roundabout kind of way; I don't like Ferrets so Ferretlover and I clash. I felt the best course of action was to vote him.

Maybe I had a different reason I do not remember, perhaps I can remember once you explain to me why the only thing you really had to comment on is my vote?

A bit late for RVS, I think.

Ferret's said practically nothing prior to the reboot. Normally when you put a vote on someone without any context it implies you are agreeing with others' reads, as Peregrine and Venmar did. But nobody had a vote on Ferret before, implying that you have some reason for voting him.

It's interesting that you're calling me out for singling your vote out when you yourself haven't really expressed much of a viewpoint on anything this game.

[Voodoo Lady]

Lords are looking sort of scummy to me. Anyone who doesn't bother looking at the OP rubs me the wrong way. Thing with the quicklynches seems genuine. I can't wrap my head around why he's trying to defend Mastin, though.

Lords missed the OP part
Nero missed the role reset part

Explain how you consider one to "rub you the wrong way", and had not even the slightest suspicion on the other.

Nero's point hadn't been brought up by the GM. I personally was wondering the same thing when Arc announced the reset.

I seriously doubt anyone would make a post attempting to determine roles in a setup before checking what roles were available in the setup.

[Voodoo Lady]

Mass claim will only help the scum kill the PRs.

Ferret as town

massclaim?

Ferret this game.

I like my vote.

You say Ferret's advocating massclaim this game? I call a misrep.

NONONONONONONONO

MASSCLAIM NONONONONONO

NO MASSCLAIM UNTIL DAY 3 AND SOMETIMES NOT EVEN THEN

Not to mention that the quote of his is completely taken out of context... post 33 was a response to post 29, in which Nacho advocated massclaiming D2. The "massclaim?" statement was made in response to Nacho's post as motivation for Ferret's vote.

[Voodoo Lady]

Last I checked, there were a couple posts on page 12. So we probably lost about... fifteen to twenty posts? Could be worse.

[Voodoo Lady]

I won't engage in an argument with Fitz solely because he will stubbornly re-engage me with a wall post. What he is doing, which is point by point arguing in wall posts is very anti-town ( at the least ), and him being very defensive to this degree strikes me as scum motivation to stay alive.

Fitz is scummy because he's making walls? That's just ridiculous. If you're trying to argue it's against his meta, that's alright. But you don't appear to be doing that here, and I seem to recall you tl;dring Fitz's posts earlier, which leads me to believe you're voting him because the layout of his posts annoy you.

Also, Mastin, the last part of 286 is really bad. "Hey, look at his posts and see if you can see something scummy." Don't make vague points against Fitz and then expect others to fill in the blanks for you.

[Voodoo Lady]

Wait a sec. Is Ferret IC or is the picture of the cute innocent looking baby unrelated to his role?

And Fitz is not scum.

I do think you're town, but asserting your alignment in third person isn't going to convince anyone.

i want alords lynch. i'll settle for nero. they seem to have utterly disappeared since the early game. if anyone has a town read on them at this point, feel free to try and convince me. i'd like to hear more from the null crowd.

Why lynch Nero at this point? The case on him was pretty flimsy back on page 5, and no evidence has arisen to indict him since.

I guess the only issue I have so far is this:

I'm much more interested in Lords right now, as his towntell seems fabricated and he hasn't been properly questioned this game.

voodoo isn't "questioning" lords. he isn't engaging lords at all. so this:

Also, Mastin, the last part of 286 is really bad. "Hey, look at his posts and see if you can see something scummy." Don't make vague points against Fitz and then expect others to fill in the blanks for you.

looks silly. voodoo's points against lords were originally mildly vague(except for the op thing) and then he really hasn't followed up with it at all. so yeah.

voodoo: explain where you are at with lords please.

The Lords are currently my top scumread. This started in post 54, where they attempted to fake a townslip by asking what roles scum had last game when a cursory glance at the setup would reveal that the scum in PYP is all goons.

As Mastin pointed out, Lords said one head considered Nero scummy but the other put their vote elsewhere. (PS: I didn't quote this part of your post, but you said it was wonky that I was agreeing with Mastin when I was skeptical of him. I do find some things Mastin has said this game suspicious, but that doesn't mean I disagree with everything he says.

His arguments that Johnson was rolefishing are pretty much total bunk, and I already posted that part of 262 I found bothersome.

Come to think of it, it wouldn't surprise me if Mastin and Lords were scum together. It would explain why he's calling out Johnson for some of the behaviors Mastin's exhibited throughout this game.

[Voodoo Lady]

EBWODP: The post I made detailing the problematic aspect of 262 got eaten, apparently. I'll retype it up for y'all.

Know what? I've got a revolutionary idea:

Lords:

Claim now. You're not talking your way out of the lynch. You might get one or two of your voters distracted (because town players are horrible at keeping their focus and are easily put on a tangent ), but eventually, those votes are going to come back to you, near deadline, and you're either lynched then or cause a panic rush to lynch someone else. Neither of which are pro-town if you are pro-town yourself. So you can see where I'm coming from.

I'm asking this because I'm largely feeling like the game is stalling. There's good content being posted, and fair points being made about certain players (Fitz and Slandaar come to mind), but I feel like those posts are more along the lines of, "Okay, we've pretty much settled on our Day One, so let's look ahead to what will be on Day Two" types of posts. Essentially, though I feel we're having good discussion on players, it feels as if pretty much every single talk on all players except the Lords, is talk of who a player wants to lynch down the line but isn't dead-set about lynching today, if that makes sense.

So basically, I feel as if we might as well get this out of the way now. It doesn't take much of a brain to figure out that's where we're heading, like it or not. You

know

it will. So let's get it done now rather than at the last minute, so that we can more easily go on those tangents and spend the day debating with that extra piece of info. (Lords's claim, whatever it may be.)

This post pretty much makes mastin a solid town read to me. No scum I have ever seen or read has said anything like this.

Mastin asks Lords to claim. Lords respond: "Man, that post of yours sure was town motivated!" Which fails to answer the most direct question posed to him all game.

[Voodoo Lady]

You think I should have claimed? Are you slow? Just because he asked me to claim is no reason to claim.

1. My reasoning behind asking about scum prs should have been obvious, had it been in any other forum, it would have opened things right up.
2. I started reading from the start of the day (ie page 2 since the earlier information was irrelevant )
3. There is no OP on page 2
4. Nero was taking flack at that time for fake towntelling

Do you honestly think I would be stupid enough to do that intentionally? It was a stupid mistake.

Don't misinterpret my post... if you had refused to claim, that would have been an answer to Mastin's question. Your post neither answered or refused to answer his question, which I feel is pretty damning.

Also, game setup didn't change with the reset. Only roles and alignments did.

[Voodoo Lady]

if anyone wants to explain "why" voodoo is scum, I am all ears, but all I see are "omgz, voodoo is scum" posts. a pbp would be nice. also, lordsy, feel free to pbp a case against me, cause I haven't seen that from you either.

voodoo: please explain the discrepancy with your posts which I pointed out. you said lords needed to be questioned, or at least implied that. how do you plan on following through? what questions do you have for them?

I said that the Lords were deserving of examination on the grounds that a) their towntell was pretty obviously fake and b) their posts had up until that point been more or less unscrutinized because of the Nero wagon. I've been pointing out things in his posts that have rubbed me the wrong way that I didn't think were receiving much in the way of scrutiny (the thing about the scum PRs and the non-response to Mastin, mainly). Now that Lords are one of the big wagons their posts are receiving some degree of analysis and I don't need to go after them to the extent I wanted to initially.

Is Ferret IC or is the picture of the cute innocent looking baby unrelated to his role?

this looks like rolefishing. Even if she was an IC, do you really expect to get an answer?

vote:voodoo

...um, yes, because when the mod posts someone's name in bold next to a picture of an innocent child, in a game where the Innocent Child is a role someone could very well have, the immediate assumption is that the person whose name is bolded next to a picture of an innocent child is the Innocent Child? I posted hoping for a confirmation from Arc as to the significance of her post. No more, no less.

[Voodoo Lady]

4 pages into a reread and I don't see voodoo's case on lords. not reading the op is not scummy in the least and it looks pretty organic to me.

unvote

vote: voodoo lady

reread your iso twice now and can't find half the shit you're talking about. you have very little on lords but seem to be acting as if you've done this great amount of arguing for their scum case. you just haven't. you've been fringe the whole time.

I 1) have had my vote on Lords for quite a while, and 2) have quoted posts of his that I've found suspicious. This is the extent of what I have done re: pushing the Lords case. I have never claimed to have taken a greater role in the case than this.

Also, I fail to see how this is more organic than Nero's townslip at the beginning of the game, which you seemed all too happy to agree was scummy.

[Voodoo Lady]

Glad to see that we've all seen the light w/r/t the Fitz wagon.

I think Lords and Mastin are scumbuddies and would be happy to lynch either.

'scuse me while I respond to Don and possibly Lords if I can find what he wanted me to reply to.

[Voodoo Lady]

@Don:

I don't understand how anyone can be reading don_johnson as anything more than a null because he's not actually saying anything. If someone, maybe Wide Right there, could explain it to me, that'd be awesome.

I don't agree, and furthermore you're being hyperbolic with that statement. Don had an appropriate reaction to the early game wagon as well as your response to his lack of L-1, and is trying to actively engage every slot in the game.

Your premise that his lack of L-1 is some kind of scumtell is bunk, and your entire attack on him is based on that one point.

-bork

This quote and the next page or so marks the point where people start questioning Lords and his posts to a point I find reasonable. I can come up with a couple posts where I point out sort of suspicious things Lords has done if you'd like.

[Voodoo Lady]

This is absolute bullshit and people should actually read the slot for what it's done NOT for how the player makes you feel.

You know, this statement is awfully ironic coming from you of all people. Are you really going to say that your vote for Don is based on objective fact rather than you finding him infuriating?

Incidentally, a quick look at your arguments with Don (if poorly constructed caps-lock heavy appeals to emotion qualify as "arguments") should explain why I've been so hesitant to start a dialogue with you.

[Voodoo Lady]

@Alien: Alright. I'll admit it-- I have not been eager to confront Lords this game. But can you really look at his back and forth with Don and really blame me for not wanting to get in an argument with him? Fact is, if I did try to reason with him he would just try to distract me with misreps and tangents. I'm not interested in engaging with someone if they'll just respond by trying to distract me. (see: the bus thing)

My non-aggression and sporadic posting are more of a playstyle thing than anything. I don't think I've played with anyone here-- well, I've played with Nacho, but he subbed out.

Anyway. Since there's intent to hammer, I don't think there's any point in delaying my claim. I'm the tracker.

[Voodoo Lady]

Voodoo...vote mastin. He's scum IMO and also a better lynch than you IMO. Lords can be sorted out later.

Lords and Mastin are definitely scumbuddies. If either of them dies, I'm cool with it. If his wagon's the one that's going to take off today, I have no problem putting my vote on it.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Mastin

[Voodoo Lady]

Nero's wagon was baseless at the start of the game. Has something changed that I've missed? Because to quote 437: "Nothing has really changed for me and I have nothing to add."

@Alien: Alright. I'll admit it-- I have not been eager to confront Lords this game. But can you really look at his back and forth with Don and really blame me for not wanting to get in an argument with him? Fact is, if I did try to reason with him he would just try to distract me with misreps and tangents. I'm not interested in engaging with someone if they'll just respond by trying to distract me. (see: the bus thing)

My non-aggression and sporadic posting are more of a playstyle thing than anything. I don't think I've played with anyone here-- well, I've played with Nacho, but he subbed out.

Anyway. Since there's intent to hammer, I don't think there's any point in delaying my claim. I'm the tracker.

What do you mean by distract you? I think that's a
fair question. I'm actually a pretty decent player capable of making up my own mind when new information presents itself. I think I've made some pretty decent points this game. How is asking you to talk to me when you are accusing me, trying to distract you?

Isn't talking to someone and asking questions the
way you solidify reads?

In order for the reads to be solidified, I need those questions answered. And you haven't been doing a particularly good job of answering questions this game.

Either that or we just get the IC to claim(if there is one) and have everyone sheep them. If there are any roles left
over, they'll know something is up and can choose how to proceed from there.

Barring the unlikely scenario in which Fitz and I are scumbuddies (which we pretty obviously aren't), doesn't this amount to a massclaim?

Also, I find it weird that you'd speculate as to the presence/identity of an IC when you drew attention to me for asking if someone was IC earlier this game under the grounds I was rolefishing.

[Voodoo Lady]

Tracked Lords, obviously. He didn't target anyone tonight, so I'm assuming someone else carried out the nightkill.

[Voodoo Lady]

I'm still not seeing Nero as scum.

Apologies for the brevity of this and possibly my next few posts-- currently setting up the open game I'm modding and I really don't want to screw it up.

[Voodoo Lady]

My laptop recently got stolen which has significantly reduced my ability to access the internet, and what little time I do have has been working on the open game I'm modding. I should be able to get it sometime this weekend, so expect more from me then.

[Voodoo Lady]

I'm personally alright with a massclaim right now, since it would result in two confirmed town. Then again, I've already claimed, so my opinion means diddly squat.

Tracked Lords, obviously. He didn't target anyone tonight, so I'm assuming someone else carried out the nightkill.

why the hell did you target lords

To see if he targeted the recipient of the nightkill, obviously.

Well I am town so you can take me off that list thank you Don. Add PV and Stubbs and then your list is more reasonable.

You can take me off that list too.

You know, just saying you're not scum isn't going to change his opinion of you. Try a little harder!

[Voodoo Lady]

I am the IC

I will claim 1 sec

bye Voodoo

VOTE: Voodoo

WR is the other scum.

Well, this is a completely unsurprising turn of events.

Unfortunately, I am town, Slandaar obviously isn't fakeclaiming, and our vig is dead. Which means Nero is scum by process of elimination.

VOTE: Nero

[Voodoo Lady]

naw, we'll wait until Angel confirms Slan and then my vote moves over to you and your scum flip confirms me.

There's no need to wait. You can't fakeclaim IC.

[Voodoo Lady]

Come on... you don't think it's a bit too convenient that Nero didn't use his power tonight?

[Voodoo Lady]

voodoo: please explain scumnero's motivation to counterclaim a role that scum did not choose to put in the game.

Because counterclaiming is the towniest way to claim, and scum!Nero would know Slandaar was gambitting.

[Voodoo Lady]

So I'm guessing you want to no lynch today?

No, because then Slandaar is going to get nightkilled and we'll be stuck in the same predicament come D3.

Normally I'm opposed to getting mislynched, but if doing so is going to out scum, I'm alright with that. Obviously I'd rather Nero get lynched, but if that's not an option I accept my death. :0)

[Voodoo Lady]

No, because then Slandaar is going to get nightkilled and we'll be stuck in the same predicament come D3.

except you'll have an additional result to work with

You're working off the assumption I'll track scum. Nero probably is going to let his partner do the killing, and I'm not certain who his buddy is.

[Voodoo Lady]

UNVOTE:

Waiting on AA9.

Do you seriously think Slandaar is lying about having the one PR that can be authenticated by outside sources?

Same goes out to you, Don. Although I'd understand if you were hesitant to vote me.

[Voodoo Lady]

No, but there's zero downside to waiting.

And there's zero upside to abstaining from decisionmaking.

[Voodoo Lady]

Apologies to Peregrine and Lords for failing miserably at everything.

This was pretty fun though!

[Voodoo Lady]

Apologies to Peregrine and Lords for failing miserably at everything.

This was pretty fun though!

The tracker claim was my biggest problem with your play. Otherwise you did a good job making them think you were town.

The claim simultaneously condemned us and yourself, when the cop claim came to light. You should have heard us ranting in our Hydra qt...

At least we didn't get lynched. I think I prefer having been nightkilled.

I explained this in the dead QT... I'm especially irritated by the tracker claim because I did it hoping to out the real tracker.

In a game where I knew there was no tracker.

Never play scum with me ever.

[Voodoo Lady]

Lol. The busing I could have handled. I managed to swing it back on you when it was opportune to do so.

I had a plan with Mhork and it was progressing nicely. Be the most vocal about your lynch (after you refused to stop bussing or to address us) and that would have hopefully got Slaander shot and given us a bit of town cred.

Instead you claimed tracker... we both went wtf!?! We knew our only hope then was to get a massclaim to reveal you as scum or to at least do enough damage control to prevent Fitz from targetting us over Slaander. We decided defending Mastin would at least let us save face and HOPEFULLY let us see day 2. Quite frankly though, I never saw the investigation coming. I'm curious to know if getting Voodoo lynched day 1 would have changed the outcome.

We did have most of you fooled day 1. Especially after that AtE post after Mastin told us to claim...

If I'd claimed cop we'd have gotten a counterclaim for Nero and gotten lynched D1, at which point your plan would have worked fine. I really did fuck us over. :0(

Also, watching Slandaar encourage Fitz to lynch one of my two scumbuddies was just painful.

[Voodoo Lady]

Did I make it that obvious I was the IC?

Hella.

[Voodoo Lady]

I love you too, Arc. <3