Open 508: The Law of the Jungle (Town Wins!)

[BoroPhil]

WIFOM

Who says the wolf was targeting for scum?

Because the wolf's chance of winning the game is inversely proportional to the number of scum still remaining going into the endgame.

Also, as Slimer pointed out yesterday, the wolf can't make nightkills if they risk putting scum in the majority.

A question though if IceGuy is scum. why did he not hammer slimer?

This also makes me think Phil is town.

thanks for raising this again. why did he not hammer?

I thought that I took Slimer off L-1 before he had a chance to hammer, but looking over that period of the thread it seems he had the opportunity and didn't take it.

If he had done that, though, I think everyone would be pushing for his lynch today. He probably thought it was too obvious.

I don't think slimer can be mafia mainly because Titus targeted him a lot. I don't think he is wolf because he was screaming for the wolf not to kill yesterday when he looked doomed.

In 906, you say that "slimer still seems best bet for wolf," and that his actions at the end of D3 didn't exonerate him in your eyes. What changed?

824 didn't exonerate him, but then I thought 840 might do. also 162 makes me think Robo and Linxie/slimer couldn't be on the same team.

[BoroPhil]

Well then. That certainly was a pleasant reversal of fortune.

I'm going to agree with Bo here and say that we should go after the wolf today. Slimer's admitted that he would claim if he was wolf and I'm willing to take him at face value. I am obviously not the wolf. (Or at least, I'm obviously not going to say I am.)

So that makes my four suspects Stubbs, Jennifer, Bo, and Boro.

The wolf probably was someone who suspected Titus,

given that she's currently dead. Slimer was the first person to call her out during D1, but was less certain about his read come later. Personally, I think Stubbs is the last scum because of 764.

Slimer/Ice : 7
Titus/VL: 6
DBK/Jen: 5
Phil: 4

Something like that I suppose.
First 2 I would vote.
Next 2 are my other scum atm
Next 2 I think my be town
Last one is likely town

Early during D3 he put his vote on IceGuy, then threatened to change his vote to Slimer as the day went on. Saying his reads on IceGuy and Slimer are identical gives him precedent for voting for either of them, or (more likely) voting Slimer, then claiming that he suspected IceGuy all along if IceGuy got sniped. I suspect that he was setting up something similar with the Titus/me rung below it.

Jennifer felt "mostly good" about Titus so I don't think she's the wolf.

Boro and DBK both suspected Titus pretty heavily, though. Hmm.

Boro:

We know that the wolf was someone who suspected Titus of being scum

. That narrows down the list of suspects somewhat.

Also, Slimer was at L-1 when he said he would claim wolf if he was.

I love it when I'm right.
More later.

Man, Stubbs, you should be really grateful we're not looking for mafia today.

Boro:

We know that the wolf was someone who suspected Titus of being scum.

That narrows down the list of suspects somewhat.

No, we don't know that.

Why do you know that?

Because Titus is dead.

This is such an obvious inference I didn't even think it needed explanation.

Actually voodoo, this was quite a jump between a couple of posts. From the wolf was

probably

someone who suspected Titus to something that was totally obvious. What changed here?

And I have to say (and slimer is following this as well) why would it so obviously be someone who suspected Titus of being scum? They could have just been very good at hiding who their suspects were.

fwiw, based on the scumometer yesterday DBK, Stubbs and I suspected Titus the most.

[BoroPhil]

Not sure I could get on a slimer lynch at this stage. Stubbs/DBK yes. I'd prefer Jen to DBK though.

What do people think of my Jen is Mafia case? I think she's nailed on mafia.

Wouldn't vote for Voodoo today.

[BoroPhil]

it isn't POE fgs Are you not reading again?

- Jen was in the gang of 3 trying to engineer the lynch on me yesterday (including you) for the most ridiculous of reasons (ok, this just makes her scum, not necessarily mafia)
- Jen didn't vote for Ice (her mafia buddy)
- Titus rated me, Jen and Dys (DBK) as town in 223/224. I think it's highly likely one of his buddies are in there
- Jen was low-ranked on the scum ratings by Titus and Ice (as where Stubbs and you)

Actually, a lot of that points towards you as well. The only difference being that you were on the Ice wagon. But that ofc doesn't mean you couldn't have been bussing Ice.

[BoroPhil]

were ffs

[BoroPhil]

and wtf, my points seem all over the place? coming from you?

seriously, if anyone wants to get a DBK lynch going, I'm on it.

[BoroPhil]

try reading 1015? We have 2 scum left, so it's not surprising I might have 3 targets is it?

[BoroPhil]

So I'm still your best bet for wolf?

yes

[BoroPhil]

take your pick really. Jen, DBK and Titus seem the towniest of the remaining 7, so by process of elimination the other 4 must be scum. the only caveat I'd put on that is that voodoo is so dis-interested she has to be town. smidger and stubbs have been so indistinct I thought they were the same person. IceGuy comes storming in and votes for Voodoo, mafia voting for mafia early on to put some distance between them?

My reads on Jen, DBK and Titus are surely bound to be wrong on at least one of them,

but I can't justify voting for any of them at this stage.

so I'm happy to go with one of:

stubbs
Ice
Voodoo
slimer

quite like my mafia voting for mafia idea so let's stick it on voodoo for the moment

VOTE: voodoo

This is based on his 180 re: Jennifer.

well this is bollocks. have you seen the bold? Also, I've already said today I think it was Jen and Titus trying to frame me yesterday with DBK following rather than what I thought yesterday which was DBK and Titus doing it maliciously with Jen following.

How about taking my case for Jen (which I've made clearly today) apart rather than picking a random post from yesterday and just sticking a lazy vote down?

Honestly, I've never known a game where I have received so many clearly shite votes.

If we win this, it will be pretty much entirely down to me because the rest of town has either not been arsed or has just been fucking awful.

[BoroPhil]

and why on earth is stubbs mafia? I'd love to hear the reasons for that.

[BoroPhil]

Phil, that comment is not going to make people stop voting you, on the contrary.

Me, mafia? I already said anyone thinking this is insane.

don't really care tbh. If townspeople can't see that I am town from my actions/voting throughout the game, they deserve to lose.

[BoroPhil]

I could say the same to you, you know.
Hoever, I try and show you Why I'm town instead of complaining about you voting me.

difference is, I've tried to make good cases with reasoning behind them. DBK on day three and Voodoo today are just drivel and/or lazy. The reason I thought Jen was town initially is because she voted for me earlier in the game, yet her case seemed to be well-thought through, albeit totally wrong. (now I think it was more malicious)

[BoroPhil]

Boro, your townread on Jen was consistent for pretty much the entire game until today. And tempering your reads with "one of these is totes wrong" strikes me as scum trying to leave their options open.

But here's a question-- if you're wolf that means Robo was your partner. Why were you searching for a third option re: his lynch on D2?

yeah, you've nicely ignored the rest of 1040 there. fancy answering the rest?

tbf, if you are voting for me because of 910, I don't really have a problem with that. Wonder why you didn't mention that when you voted though?

I was very active in calling Titus scum, but so were DBK and Stubbs.

So question is, why have you picked me ahead of them?

And - while I see your reasoning (wolf was someobody who suspected titus), I've repeatedly asked:

WHY DOES THIS HAVE TO BE THE CASE?

and you have not, to date, answered.

and to answer your final question re robo. isn't it obvious? we had one scum confirmed in robo, we basically had it in the bank so let's look elsewhere. it was also the only scenario in which the wolves might try and double bluff us and keep our seer alive in the hope we lynched him for fake claiming.

Robo was dead whatever happened, so if I was his partner it was pretty pointless to try and keep him alive.

so all in all, this seems pretty poorly thought out if you are town.

[BoroPhil]

agreed

[BoroPhil]

yeah tbh I don't really think you are mafia, I'm certain Jen is. so there is a 1% chance of you being mafia. so it's bad hedging of bets.

don't you think we should be looking for the other wolf?

I want to go for the one most likely to be wolf or mafia.
There is no option that Slimer is town in my head, so he's got to go, whatever he is.

this makes it more obvious to me that stubbs is the last wolf.

the advantage of hitting the last wolf (4town v 1 mafia tomorrow) with 2 no more night kills and 2 mislynches allowed is so great we have to hunt them down.

if we hit mafia today and wolf then NKs it's 3 town v 1 wolf tomorrow and we don't have any more mislynches. is that mylo/lylo/whatever; I'm not totally sure on the terminology.

and if we go for wolf and miss then asssuming worst case scenario and the wolf NKs town it's 2 town v 1 mafia v 1 wolf and we get another chance at hitting the wolf which takes us into 2 town v 1 mafia endgame.

So, the advantages of hitting the last wolf are clear, therefore it's totally expected that the last wolf would not be keen on this. and ofc our last mafia, Jen, sits quietly in the background hoping we do in fact go after the wolf.

[BoroPhil]

is 2v1 any worse than 3v1? because if we hit mafia that is the best we will be at.

incidentally, what happens, if we have 3v1 and we no lynch and the wolf no kills?

[BoroPhil]

sorry I misread your 2v1v1 as 2v1

[BoroPhil]

but yeah, if it's 2v1v1 we have to hit the wolf, so 1/4

but if we hit mafia today, we have to hit the wolf, so 1/4

[BoroPhil]

Stubbs, where you say 'x' is town/mafia/scum, can you actually explain what you mean?

[BoroPhil]

Stubbs, where you say 'x' is town/mafia/scum, can you actually explain what you mean?

what are you referring to?

where you say it at 1062 for slimer, voodoo and me.

[BoroPhil]

You do.

Waiting for you slimer before I respond to stubbs.

[BoroPhil]

You want me to respond to the rest of 1040?

How about taking my case for Jen (which I've made clearly today) apart rather than picking a random post from yesterday and just sticking a lazy vote down?

Okay, you know why I'm not doing this? Because I'm not questioning your read on Jennifer. You present a reasonable case with a clear thought process? That's cool. But there's no reason that you wouldn't post a good case on Jennifer if you were scum.

Actually, it makes more sense that you'd have a clear case on the person you think is mafia as a wolf than as town.

Honestly, I've never known a game where I have received so many clearly shite votes.

If we win this, it will be pretty much entirely down to me because the rest of town has either not been arsed or has just been fucking awful.

Aaand the rest of this post is pure self-pity. Remember what I said to Stubbs earlier? Telling other people that they'd have to be total morons to vote for you

isn't going to make them stop voting for you.

so basically I have a good case against Jen and you can't take it apart. so why are you voting for me again?

[BoroPhil]

Well, the quoted text is the reason I get the read. What's not clear about it?

I just want you to clarify it for me. I just see you calling people labels (which makes you look town), but exactly why are they what you say they are in that post.

[BoroPhil]

Boro is wolf, Stubbs is mafia.

VOTE: Boro

I did not drop my scumread at all.

On day 2, Robo was the obvious lynch.

On day 3, I admitted Titus's play was better, but later went back on my read because I thought town Titus would have seen Phil as town as well.

To be honest, I'm very much doubting my scumread on Titus right now.
His posts from day 2 look pretty good.

I'll need to do some rereading as my day 1 reads were pretty bad obviously.

Why try to negate your earlier reads?

You and Boro are both doing this thing where you keep talking about how your reads are probably wrong, and I think you know your reads are wrong and are trying to avoid backlash.

You want me to respond to the rest of 1040?

How about taking my case for Jen (which I've made clearly today) apart rather than picking a random post from yesterday and just sticking a lazy vote down?

Okay, you know why I'm not doing this? Because I'm not questioning your read on Jennifer. You present a reasonable case with a clear thought process? That's cool. But there's no reason that you wouldn't post a good case on Jennifer if you were scum.

Actually, it makes more sense that you'd have a clear case on the person you think is mafia as a wolf than as town.

Honestly, I've never known a game where I have received so many clearly shite votes.

If we win this, it will be pretty much entirely down to me because the rest of town has either not been arsed or has just been fucking awful.

Aaand the rest of this post is pure self-pity. Remember what I said to Stubbs earlier? Telling other people that they'd have to be total morons to vote for you

isn't going to make them stop voting for you.

and Voodoo are you basically saying my read on Jen is good yet you don't think Jen is scum herself, you think it's me and Stubbs? You are making zero sense. This is bollocks yet again.

Also, my reads have been pretty fucking fantastic so far in this game tbqh.

[BoroPhil]

ok, so if we think we have reached a bit of a stalemate, does anyone have a 2nd choice who they would be prepared to switch to. can we try and find some form of consensus? we have to remember here, 4 out of the 6 of us are town.

[BoroPhil]

there is some merit in all that. Voodoo's case against me today is rubbish and the ease in which she was prepared to go after her mafia target, you, was interesting considering we seem to have all agreed that we want to get the wolf. I certainly have no intention of voting for Jen at this stage even though I'm convinced she is mafia.

Need to think about it some more.

UNVOTE:

[BoroPhil]

Stubbs for me to consider not voting for you again, you need to explain your reads at 1062. Treat me as a total idiot.

[BoroPhil]

If we are considering voodoo as wolf we have to ask was her targeting of me plausible. She stated at the start of the day that it had to be someone who suspected Titus as scum. She still has not answered why this had to be the case. For me its irrelevant because a) the wolf might have suspected secretly and b) I think the wolf would have been just as happy to hit town.

So, voodoo's declaration neatly narrows her suspects down to me and Stubbs, although she should have also considered dbk as well.

[BoroPhil]

anyway I agree to an extent that mafia wants the wolf alive so they keep picking off townies, but is that too much of a risk for Jen, after all she is the only remaining member of her team and if the wolf hits her its game over.

[BoroPhil]

sod it. this is a bit of a hunch but it feels the best option atm.

VOTE: voodoo

[BoroPhil]

More suspect?

As in I did some suspicious things to you, and that Boro was just more suspicious?

No, as in, Boro was acting suspicious and flaky at several points this game and you weren't. I've had you as a townread all game, remember?

Look at that spat you had over the joke D3. While you were being all immovable and rational, Boro was getting frustrated and kept saying you had to be scum if you were going after him. He basically attacked anyone who went after him. (Hence the 180 on Jennifer-- she kept out of the debate, meaning that Boro could just sort of ignore her and still have two people to go after D3. But after he killed Titus, he needed a new suspect, at which point he remembered Jennifer existed.) This strikes me as a wolf going after people that might get him lynched with no care about looking scummy-- which indicates that he wasn't worried about the nightkill on account of being the wolf.

He has a very well thought-out case on the person he thinks is scum, but he's just shrugging his shoulders re: the wolf.

Basically, you've kept the high road all this game while Boro's more or less been cussing out anyone who thinks he's scum. "All these votes on me are shite!!" Leads me to believe he's scum and you're not.

yeah, yet again this is totally wrong. DBK's was wrong and flawed and focused on something so minor it was hardly rational.

I didn't attack anyone who went after me, I specifically said on a number of occasions that Jen was exempt because she at least seemed to be thinking through things rationally.

However, things changed when DBK practically hammered Ice so it made it pretty unlikely he was the last mafia. Therefore, the best explanation was that it was Jen and Titus, with DBK following.

I certainly haven't shrugged my shoulders on who is the wolf, I've admitted we had very few leads, but at least I've tried to get involved and scum hunt, whereas you have done pretty much zero today apart from construct a poor case on me, although you have suddenly become active, I wonder why.

[BoroPhil]

If we are considering voodoo as wolf we have to ask was her targeting of me plausible. She stated at the start of the day that it had to be someone who suspected Titus as scum. She still has not answered why this had to be the case. For me its irrelevant because a) the wolf might have suspected secretly and b) I think the wolf would have been just as happy to hit town.

So, voodoo's declaration neatly narrows her suspects down to me and Stubbs, although she should have also considered dbk as well.

I believe I've already explained this, but I'll reiterate-- it had to be the case because the wolf's odds of victory are inversely proportional to the number of mafia still alive during the endgame.

The end of Stubbs's case is stupid, mainly because we did agree that we'd go after a different player for a lynch if our first choice for a wolf probably couldn't go through.

But the rest of it...hm...

UNVOTE:

I'm pretty tired and don't want to post anything else right now. Maybe later.

To be honest, I think if she truly believed in it, she would have stayed on her wolf read.

You're contradicting yourself. We all agreed that we'd go after our second scumreads if our first scumreads weren't feasible. I do believe Boro is wolf. But if we can't lynch the wolf, I'm happy with sniping the remaining Mafia.

Can you give me some numerical examples of those odds?

and what about a) ? How do you know it wasn't someone who secretly suspected Titus?

[BoroPhil]

you missed my point. if someone didn't suspect Titus as scum openly how could you then go after them for suspecting Titus? You wouldn't know. and you picked me and Stubbs, which corresponded to the people who most suspected Titus in the 1-10s.

Though DBK also scored Titus highly, yet you consistently leave him out as a possible. Trying to keep the person who is seen as town by the majority onside? Looks like it to me.

[BoroPhil]

I haven't dropped it, I don't really understand it still. Not sure why you have chosen a hypothetical situation which could never occur in this game. How about using real numbers?

Do I have reason to believe the wolf would hide their scumreads? ER LET ME THINK. Because they are scum and they want to confuse?

The last line doesn't make much sense either tbh, if Stubbs was mafia why would he suspect Titus of ,er, being mafia?

[BoroPhil]

In Titus's words, you seem to be flailing a bit here

[BoroPhil]

In fact you are basically saying that:

- it would be impossible for the wolf to hide their scumreads

- Stubbs is mafia despite calling Titus out as mafia all the time

So the wolf is incapable of deception, while Stubbs, the mafia, has been doing it all game

[BoroPhil]

if we were lynching idiots matey, you'd have been gone yesterday

[BoroPhil]

DBK, if I still thought you were scum I'd say you were pretty happy to wagon-flip today as well.

[BoroPhil]

DBK, if I still thought you were scum I'd say you were pretty happy to wagon-flip today as well.

I'm bored and this game is slowing down.

@Stubbs: PoE and I really don't mind your lynch, or Voodoo's. Yours just seems more likely.

I can understand that, but I think Voodoo is a much better choice than Stubbs.

[BoroPhil]

Jen has said she would vote Voodoo

[BoroPhil]

If Jen isn't mafia and that's a huge hypothetical if, she hasn't exactly been much help

[BoroPhil]

I'm really about 90-10 Voodoo-Stubbs at this stage.

[BoroPhil]

Interesting kill. Made things a bit easier for me as I was never going to be totally happy seeing DBK as town, but then again he was pretty much seen as town by everyone else.

Looking forward to see what CD thinks of the game.

[BoroPhil]

take your pick really. Jen, DBK and Titus seem the towniest of the remaining 7, so by process of elimination the other 4 must be scum. the only caveat I'd put on that is that voodoo is so dis-interested she has to be town. smidger and stubbs have been so indistinct I thought they were the same person. IceGuy comes storming in and votes for Voodoo, mafia voting for mafia early on to put some distance between them?

My reads on Jen, DBK and Titus are surely bound to be wrong on at least one of them, but I can't justify voting for any of them at this stage.

so I'm happy to go with one of:

stubbs
Ice
Voodoo
slimer

quite like my mafia voting for mafia idea so let's stick it on voodoo for the moment

VOTE: voodoo

btw, I can't resist, and I can't claim any credit for lynching voodoo as I didn't think she was mafia anymore, but it's pretty amusing that this which kicked off all of that shit on day 3 was actually 100% accurate

[BoroPhil]

Hi CD.

My first instincts were to immediately no-lynch today and I wanted to see what the rest of you would do. The 4-1 vs 3-1 makes perfect sense if you look at it like that, however if you read the wiki on here it actually points out that by doing that you allow the scum to get rid of town's best player if you like (or who they think would be most useful). Therefore, I think it's pretty imperative we at least discuss rather than just simply no-lynch.

You'd also have to say that the one thing scum would like to do today to get town cred is to immediately suggest a no-lynch.

We have to ask ourselves some questions:

- Who would be the easy target scum would want to target for a lynch today/tomorrow
- Who do you think is the last scum
- Is there anyone who you think is 100% town (or basically someone you wouldn't consider lynching)

[BoroPhil]

Yep, but surely if we treat this as the last day, effectively come to a decision (not necessarily publicly) and then go with it tomorrow, regardless of who gets NKed tonight then the result is the same. and we get a bit more of a safety cushion.

[BoroPhil]

Indeed

[BoroPhil]

Welcome, ChannelDelibird!

Why did you feel the need to post that disclaimer by the way? It starts making my head spin with wifom.

If my math is right (always suspect sadly), we only have 1 mislynch whether we lynch someone today or tomorrow. The only difference is whether we're a man down when deciding on the lynch. So I think the optimal thing to do is to get full discussion with everyone today, then no lynch, then when we're a man down tomorrow, at least we have that person's input and they're conf-town so we can take their thoughts seriously.

are you intending to contribute anymore today?

[BoroPhil]

I'm going to wait until CDB comes back and/or Jen posts something meaningful before I answer that

[BoroPhil]

in fact, I think Jen is due a prod?

[BoroPhil]

is Jelle Vossen any good?

[BoroPhil]

Wow. Apparently, this is a shock that y'all disagree with me on this slip. It wouldn't surprise me though if someone in this group of defenders is particularly Darthe's fellow wolf.[/b]

Why do you say that Darth is a wolf and not scum?

Do you know something we don't?

And furthermore, why do you call Stubbs suspicious right after he calls you suspicious?

Titus is looking a little iffy.

Linxie posted one day and 17 hours ago.

Your rules say 72 for a prod and then another 24 for replacement.

I hate to be the guy who argues with the mod, but that is seriously unfair for Linxie.

Unless Linxie requested it?

Post #203 by Smudger was BOOM TOWN, that just tipped the scale from neutral to town in my mind. That's a townie thought process, IMO.

@Boro: Can you do me a favor and make a compact post with a SHORT summary about why you feel Zeofar is scum? I know you've been suspicious of him for most of this game, but I'd like to know what made you really go for it. Just a little numbered list is all, honestly I hate the huge posts. A short succint post will do the job, please.

@Stubbs: In post 189 Jennifer asked you a question. Please answer that.

And, still waiting on Darthe's response. So that's all for now, folks.

Vote on Voodoo is a pressure vote.

You know what really defeats the purpose of a pressure vote? Saying it is a pressure vote.

Reads from a review of the first four pages:

Jennifer looks town
Voodoo too
Stubbs as well
And I like Smudger

I'm really conflicted on Boro because he seems so earnest, his play just doesn't read to me like it could have any intelligent motivation or plotting..
Likewise, no clue on Dyslexicon
Or Lixie.

Titus could be overcompensating
Fairly negative read on Saki for a post style that lends itself to instigation of issues, would love to read a couple of town/scum games
Robo cop I'm very slight scum on for attempting to push easy lynches selectively
Zeofar I find slightly scummy

Pushing easy lynches selectively.

You think that I am scummy.

For pushing easy lynches selectively.

So, I have made one vote this game. On you. So are you saying that you are an easy lynch? And why is that selective? And why did you put plural lynches?

Furthermore, you have a negative read on me, a negative read on Saki for posting style, and you called Boro unintelligibly motivated.

Those three people happen to be on your wagon, and I don't even know what you are calling Titus.

Zeofar is scummy because... nothing apparently because thats all you wrote.

You called Smudger town for liking him.

Listen bro these reads are bogus and I am still perfectly content with you dying.

well that's not really very accurate Jen is it?

[BoroPhil]

Wow. Apparently, this is a shock that y'all disagree with me on this slip. It wouldn't surprise me though if someone in this group of defenders is particularly Darthe's fellow wolf.[/b]

Why do you say that Darth is a wolf and not scum?

Do you know something we don't?

And furthermore, why do you call Stubbs suspicious right after he calls you suspicious?

Titus is looking a little iffy.

Linxie posted one day and 17 hours ago.

Your rules say 72 for a prod and then another 24 for replacement.

I hate to be the guy who argues with the mod, but that is seriously unfair for Linxie.

Unless Linxie requested it?

Post #203 by Smudger was BOOM TOWN, that just tipped the scale from neutral to town in my mind. That's a townie thought process, IMO.

@Boro: Can you do me a favor and make a compact post with a SHORT summary about why you feel Zeofar is scum? I know you've been suspicious of him for most of this game, but I'd like to know what made you really go for it. Just a little numbered list is all, honestly I hate the huge posts. A short succint post will do the job, please.

@Stubbs: In post 189 Jennifer asked you a question. Please answer that.

And, still waiting on Darthe's response. So that's all for now, folks.

Vote on Voodoo is a pressure vote.

You know what really defeats the purpose of a pressure vote? Saying it is a pressure vote.

Reads from a review of the first four pages:

Jennifer looks town
Voodoo too
Stubbs as well
And I like Smudger

I'm really conflicted on Boro because he seems so earnest, his play just doesn't read to me like it could have any intelligent motivation or plotting..
Likewise, no clue on Dyslexicon
Or Lixie.

Titus could be overcompensating
Fairly negative read on Saki for a post style that lends itself to instigation of issues, would love to read a couple of town/scum games
Robo cop I'm very slight scum on for attempting to push easy lynches selectively
Zeofar I find slightly scummy

Pushing easy lynches selectively.

You think that I am scummy.

For pushing easy lynches selectively.

So, I have made one vote this game. On you. So are you saying that you are an easy lynch? And why is that selective? And why did you put plural lynches?

Furthermore, you have a negative read on me, a negative read on Saki for posting style, and you called Boro unintelligibly motivated.

Those three people happen to be on your wagon, and I don't even know what you are calling Titus.

Zeofar is scummy because... nothing apparently because thats all you wrote.

You called Smudger town for liking him.

Listen bro these reads are bogus and I am still perfectly content with you dying.

well that's not really very accurate Jen is it?

[BoroPhil]

oops, didn't plan for those quotes yet. look at the next post as well.

[BoroPhil]

don't first days in mafia invariably end up with 2+ townies fighting amongst themselves, whilst the scum chortle in the background. I'm pretty new to mafia but hitting scum on day one seems to be rare

Hitting scum on day one is indeed rare, but not because townies are throwing up a smokescreen. But rather that people decide to randomly vote someone with the mindset of "we have no information besides what we say, might as well kill someone to get the ball rolling". And in a Newbie game, taking a shot in 9 people is kinda hard to hit two of nine.

But don't let that hold you down, we can increase our odds through proper analysis.

I'm actually wondering if this was a genuine thought or whether you are scum asking a question about scum to make it seem like you aren't scum.

Shrug, former probs

Vote on Voodoo is a pressure vote.

You know what really defeats the purpose of a pressure vote? Saying it is a pressure vote.

Reads from a review of the first four pages:

Jennifer looks town
Voodoo too
Stubbs as well
And I like Smudger

I'm really conflicted on Boro because he seems so earnest, his play just doesn't read to me like it could have any intelligent motivation or plotting..
Likewise, no clue on Dyslexicon
Or Lixie.

Titus could be overcompensating
Fairly negative read on Saki for a post style that lends itself to instigation of issues, would love to read a couple of town/scum games
Robo cop I'm very slight scum on for attempting to push easy lynches selectively
Zeofar I find slightly scummy

Pushing easy lynches selectively.

You think that I am scummy.

For pushing easy lynches selectively.

So, I have made one vote this game. On you. So are you saying that you are an easy lynch? And why is that selective? And why did you put plural lynches?

Furthermore, you have a negative read on me, a negative read on Saki for posting style, and you called Boro unintelligibly motivated.

Those three people happen to be on your wagon, and I don't even know what you are calling Titus.

Zeofar is scummy because... nothing apparently because thats all you wrote.

You called Smudger town for liking him.

Listen bro these reads are bogus and I am still perfectly content with you dying.

Post #203 by Smudger was BOOM TOWN, that just tipped the scale from neutral to town in my mind. That's a townie thought process, IMO.

@Boro: Can you do me a favor and make a compact post with a SHORT summary about why you feel Zeofar is scum? I know you've been suspicious of him for most of this game, but I'd like to know what made you really go for it. Just a little numbered list is all, honestly I hate the huge posts. A short succint post will do the job, please.

@Stubbs: In post 189 Jennifer asked you a question. Please answer that.

And, still waiting on Darthe's response. So that's all for now, folks.

Wow. Apparently, this is a shock that y'all disagree with me on this slip. It wouldn't surprise me though if someone in this group of defenders is particularly Darthe's fellow wolf.[/b]

Why do you say that Darth is a wolf and not scum?

Do you know something we don't?

And furthermore, why do you call Stubbs suspicious right after he calls you suspicious?

Titus is looking a little iffy.

His slip is evidence that he's a wolf not mafia. Not hunting a particular faction is a huge scum tell that a player is a member of the faction not being hunted. His total forgetfullness regarding the wolves in his setup analysis indicates he's a wolf to me. So I'm going to call him a wolf.

I called Stubbs suspicious because he's claiming outing a possible slip is "acting town". That's just not plausible IMO. I am not certain as to whether he is scum yet, but I noticed it. The timing is a bit OMGUS, so I'm holding judgment in case I am victim to that fallacy. Your focus on me could be just as easily argued as OMGUS Robocopter.

I suppose that makes sense.

Not even close to as easily argued. You called me suspicious for saying that I was agreeing with you on Darthe, when in reality I was the first person to even vote and question Darthe. So no, it's not really OMGUS at all, and I called you iffy, not scummy. Iffy because it looked off, but I hadn't given you a chance to explain yourself, which you have now.

That doesn't let you off the hook for the OMGUS, your reason for the Stubbs suspicion is pretty ridiculous. Why isn't it plausible?

This reads like really forced town zealotry. Why try so hard?

Stubbs said that pointing out slips is acting town. It's basic scumhunting not "acting" at al. Stubbs seems to be mudslinging for regular in-game behavior.

Also, your post seems to me much more town here than many of your other previous posts. I'm reconsidering my initial read on you as scummy for not engaging in RVS.

Judging by your join date, I imagine you've never seen a game where the people didn't do RVS. The truth of the matter is that RVS is a tradition, not a strategy, and though it is the traditional way of getting things moving, it is not the only way. It does as much good to fight the tradition and get a reaction as it does to conform to the tradition and get a reaction.

Pretty much, I'm a rebel.

Linxie

Linxie posted one day and 17 hours ago.

Your rules say 72 for a prod and then another 24 for replacement.

I hate to be the guy who argues with the mod, but that is seriously unfair for Linxie.

Unless Linxie requested it?

So that's:

Phil 2 replies, 1 mention
Stubbs 1 reply, 2 mentions
Linx 0 replies, 2 mentions
Jen 0 replies, 1 mention

[BoroPhil]

and fwiw, and feel free to debate this analysis:

Phil - Robo tries to make me look a little bit scummy, nothing major
Stubbs - quite defensive of him, maybe more to attack Titus
Linx (CDB) - zero really. just talking about the unfairness of being replaced.
Jen - nothing direct. asking Stubbs to answer a question she asked.

[BoroPhil]

you have come to a lot of the same conclusions I have about Jen. she has played it very safe and to add with what you have said:

- she voted for me on D1/D2 for pretty rubbish reasons (but confidently put as you say), I called her up on it and she removed it. At the time I thought it was strength and a willingness to change her mind, however it could have been scum worried they were overstretching herself
- I've tried to provoke her a bit with my more recent posts, asking her to contribute more and saying she hasn't been much use. she hasn't responded directly to any of this. wouldn't townJen do so?

Jen - if you are town, what do you think of your performance so far in this game?

Your votes have been
Phil 1 (removed under pressure)
Zeofar 1 (no explanation?)
Robo 1 (At L-1 after unveiling)
Phil (back to me)
Slimer (2nd on)

[BoroPhil]

it is worth noting that if me or Stubbs was the wolf we'd love to piggy-back onto a case like that

[BoroPhil]

why would you expect that?

[BoroPhil]

in case that gets lost on the last page. Jen - why would you expect that?

I suppose we'll have to wait a few days for an answer.

[BoroPhil]

Ofc if you were the wolf, you could easily make a case against Jen. In fact, I'm sure anyone could make a case about anyone at this stage based on a selection of posts. But would you have picked Jen? I actually think Stubbs or maybe even myself might have been more obvious targets.

I was pretty sure slimer wasn't the wolf, although that was mainly based on the linxie-robo interaction (which could have been distancing)

I guess we just have to go with gut feelings at this stage.

We should still no-lynch. I doubt I'd be engaging in any discussion tomorrow and while 1 more NK won't change anything, it still seems the sensible action. Obviously, if Jen wasn't the wolf she wouldn't be NKed now but for some/all of us, our 2nd candidate might get removed, making the decision slightly easier.

But would it add more doubt? and is CDB being too keen? Coming in and providing this brilliant case, is it too convenient? Clearly an experienced player, so could easily be capable of it.

[BoroPhil]

yeah, and you pretty much managed to sum up exactly what I was thinking about Jen, so if it is a fake, it's an excellent one.

Jen - ball is in your court as far as I'm concerned

[BoroPhil]

Phil, you have a tendency to be pretty emotional/attack or suspect everyone throughout this game at the turn of a dime, so, yeah... not surprised.

Haven't heard from Stubbs yet. I'd like his response to my question of why the snark re 'acting' and then I think we should no lynch and plan tomorrow.

CDB's vote on me just consolidated my scum read though.. that he would risk losing the game by voting today instead of tomorrow is irresponsible and BAD because killing me WILL result in us losing the game, and there is no way wolf should be able to win this at this point, especially as we got his partner Day 1.

Getting rid of robo so early actually left the lone wolf in an incredibly strong position, which is why darthe should never have come out so soon. Interactions between robo and anyone else are thin on the ground as a result.

It does make sense then that the last wolf would basically drift through the game contributing very little which sums you up perfectly although slimer and stubbs to a lesser extent haven't exactly been prolific.

[BoroPhil]

I think what has most impressed me about Jen today is here ability to form a case on someone else, giving us an alternative to herself

(if you are still reading DBK - that was a joke)

[BoroPhil]

we'll end up in this place regardless.

VOTE: jennifer

[BoroPhil]

UNVOTE:

then again

[BoroPhil]

Might as well play this out

[BoroPhil]

haha at last. well done town, and if there's a lesson for not taking it from 3-1 to 2-1 and giving scum an additional kill I don't know what is. we should have just nailed Jennifer, she was so obvscum it hurt.

[BoroPhil]

great modding as well, though would have appreciated a dead thread!

[BoroPhil]

haha, well better late than never

[BoroPhil]

too town scummy as hell