Open 537 - Polygamist: Game over, town win.

[Lark]

I agree with baldeagle. Early claims will help scum more. See Open 243 where scum started claiming on page 2 instead of getting agreement first. Rather like Desperado has done.

VOTE: Desperado

[Lark]

If scum know who the pairs are it makes it easier for them to get rid of stronger players by going for the weaker half of the pair.

[Lark]

Lark, what's your read on me?

I don't have one yet.

[Lark]

Aaand... we've got a live one here!

VOTE: baldeagle

For sheeping Skull's suggestion (wrong of course) that I didn't know that we are confirmed to each other, and claiming it as a fact without even questioning it.

I'm not sure whether Skull had misunderstood what I said or whether he was deliberately twisting it, but I don't see how he got that from what I said. As there is no night kill the only way for the scum to get rid of a strong town player is to push a mislynch on their weaker half by painting them as scummy.

FoS Desperado and Skull for going ahead with the mass claim without letting us discuss it first.

[Lark]

Again, this is an unreasonable concern that smells of fear-mongering. The two Lovers in a pair are inexorably connected to each other. If Scum tries to push a mislynch on one member of the pair, they're going to have a really tough time because they are essentially trying to push a mislynch on both members of the pair.

So they can see which pairs they need to avoid trying to lynch now that all pairings are out. If you hadn't got everyone to claim they would still be in the dark about that.

Why do you feel that Baldeagle is scummier than me?

Because of the way he jumped on the wagon. That was really bad.

What is there to discuss? I already explained why it's a good idea. I already explained the benefits of claiming your Lover partner. Do you see the logic behind my explanation? If you don't, tell me what you don't understand and I'll explain it a different way. If you do, why aren't you saying who your Lover is?

When Desp claimed there had been no discussion. No explanation of benefits. No attempt to get a consensus. That's what the fos was for, my distrust of the motives behind it. Not for a difference in theory. And I guess it's clear who my lover is by know.

[Lark]

Oh man

I already messed up bad

I didn't see past post 25 when I posted.

So what was post 32 about?

[Lark]

You realize I didn't see your post about you not understanding how the town lovers work until I made the post where I voted you right? Why isn't anyone else scummy for voting you? Also, what's so scummy about going ahead with the massclaim? They said they discussed it in their QT.

1) I didn't make any post about not understanding how the town lovers work. In fact, post 19 shows that I

did

know. Are you saying you voted me without reading my posts? What was the basis for the statement you made about me in post 29?

2) Bojo's vote on me wasn't that scummy, considering it was still very early in the game. I said my piece about Skull in post 33. Noenizer's vote and unvote were a bit dodgy. Desp seems to be voting me because I voted and FoS'd him. Redcoyote I'm not sure about yet.

3) It's scummy because they are acting like they are a team by themselves, not like they're part of the town.

4) At least 8 of us, and possibly 10, didn't have access to their QT so the fact that they discussed it there is irrelevent.

I agree with baldeagle. Early claims will help scum more. See Open 243 where scum started claiming on page 2 instead of getting agreement first. Rather like Desperado has done.

This is how I would expect scum to react. 1) Ties himself to Bald's reasoning, 2) blanket "early claims help scum more" without any further explanation, 3) irrelevant meta to justify his vote.

1) No point in just repeating what has already been said.
2) I didn't have time to say more then.
3) Since when does a semi-random reaction testing vote come with full justification? I poked you there and both you and Skull went on to the attack. Only reason I'm not voting for one of you now is that I still think baldeagle's reason for voting me is worse.

I don't get this. You understand this game is nightless, right?

If you've read my posts you will know I do.

Scum:
baldeagle/Sanhora and/or Skullduggery/Desperado - I don't really think these pairs are scum together but I'm not ruling it out.
Neonizer/Blueberry - this is a weak read based on post 38 and his defending and distancing from Skullduggery/Desperado. Neon has posted several times but apart from a quick vote/unvote on me he hasn't given any indication of who he thinks may be scum.

[Lark]

Which you neglected to discuss in your response. Why?

Because I thought it would be pointless. I explained why I thought what you did was scummy. I don't think an action which takes away a possible town advantage without discussion is protown. Reaction tests can be useful but not when they get in the way of other things. And at least one of your results was either wrong or faked.

1. Yet, you assumed that there was night, because you were all excited about scum making nightkills.

2. Nice to know that you are scumreading almost all of your attackers.

3. This doesn't even make sense.

4. Not really because they explained it here why it's better to massclaim right away.

1. This is completely false. I don't know where you're getting this from but it certainly isn't from my posts.

2. Skull and Desp only attacked me after I voted Desp, and Neon is not attacking me. If you are implying that I am only attacking them because they attacked me first that is not true.

3. What doesn't make sense? I'm saying that their actions are those of an anti-town group, that they have a good chance of being scum.

4. Only after the fact.

I'm still waiting for your reply to this:

What was the basis for the statement you made about me in post 29?

[Lark]

And basically from then on, I’m actually more convinced Lark is scum.

His claims that two people “aren’t acting like town” but acting like “part of an anti-town group” is complete conjecture

, and overall my gut feels worse and worse about him. Funny because earlier I was praising him for thinking like me.

Yes, of course it's complete conjecture, because that's all I can do without more certain information, which in this game we only get after people flip. But thanks for letting us know that you think,

or know

, that I'm town as if you thought I was scum you wouldn't be calling it conjecture. In fact logic dictates that it's "know", not "think" but logic doesn't always work in mafia. And I'm now torn between voting for you and keeping my vote on baldeagle.

…Hey wait. We get a mislynch. So even if I’m wrong about one, the other two are pretty much confscum.

VOTE: 1baldeagle1

I’d vote Lark to L-2 to help with pressure, but my vote’s a placeholder vote until Jmo gets in here and plays a bit, since I’ll be unavailable until Sunday. We talked about it, and he said he can play while I’m gone, so we’re not V/LA-ing.

I don't know what pressure you think is needed. And that bit about the placeholder vote feels like you're trying to reassure baldeagle that the vote won't be staying there long. Yes, it's more conjecture. :)

4) At least 8 of us, and possibly 10, didn't have access to their QT so the fact that they discussed it there is irrelevent.

How did you get to this?

What do you mean? It looks fairly straightforward to me.

@ Matias

: Frustrated is definitely the right word.

1. Got it from this post:

If scum know who the pairs are it makes it easier for them to get rid of stronger players by going for the weaker half of the pair.

2. Neon did attack you, then he stopped attacking you. Your reasoning for voting Desp is pretty weak, though.

@29, ... reasoning for voting Desp, excited for the nightkills. I misread your post about scum going for the weaker pair, I thought you meant scum would be one lover and they would kill the other town lover. They way you worded it was awkward.

Of course the vote for Desp was weak. It was only the fifth post of the game. I'll repeat what I said in post 72. "Since when does a semi-random reaction testing vote come with full justification?" As for your interpretation of post 19, it just doesn't make sense as scum don't need the claims to know who their partners are. It looks far more like you just jumped on Skull's comment, used it as an excuse to vote me, and are now trying to wriggle out of it.

[Lark]

@Lark
My question was how you 'know' that 8 players din't have access to the QT. Desperado and Skulldog have said that they talked about in the QT and so did Baldeagle and I. So what about the other players?

It was Desperado and Skulldog's QT I was referring to because baldeagle was implying in post 52, to which I was replying, that the fact they discussed it in their QT meant they didn't need to discuss it with others in the thread. Most of us didn't have access to that particular QT. Are you saying you did?

[Lark]

EBWOP:

It was Desperado and Skulldog's QT I was referring to...

"Skullduggery" not "Skulldog".

Sorry, my fault for just copy/pasting it from Sanhora's post.

[Lark]

Lark says that Bojo's attack on Lark isn't that scummy (which is really town, IMO).

That was his first vote but his attack on me in 84 was certainly scummy.

Out of Bojo and Neonizer I think the case against Bojo is stronger. See the first para of 99.

VOTE: Bojo

[Lark]

While we are all voting Neonnizer, you vote Bojo. This just looks like he's too afraid to bus.

Did you read my reason for voting him?

Before you voted Bojo was on three and Neonizer was on two, you jumped off a no longer viable wagon to tie them on three each. What is your reason for voting Neonizer rather than Bojo?

Are you familiar with the Whit Flag Gambit? You guys really need to stop the "Scum wouldn't bus"

Yes, I've heard of it. Is that why Bojo voted you? Trouble is, he spoilt the effect a bit with his "placeholder" comment.

[Lark]

What is your reason for voting Neonizer rather than Bojo?

Actually I'm going to address this one to Matias and Desp too. Why did you start a new wagon on Neonizer when there were already votes on Bojo?

[Lark]

What did you think about my point that Bo wouldn't have used the words he did if he really thought I was scum as he claimed he did?

[Lark]

It's the first para of post 99.

[Lark]

Specifically, what part of it did you find scummy and why?

As I said just 3 posts before yours, it's the first para of post 99. But I'm going to post it again here because I want everyone to consider what I think is a strong scum-slip by Bojo:

And basically from then on, I’m actually more convinced Lark is scum.

His claims that two people “aren’t acting like town” but acting like “part of an anti-town group” is complete conjecture

, and overall my gut feels worse and worse about him. Funny because earlier I was praising him for thinking like me.

Yes, of course it's complete conjecture, because that's all I can do without more certain information, which in this game we only get after people flip. But thanks for letting us know that you think,

or know

, that I'm town as if you thought I was scum you wouldn't be calling it conjecture. In fact logic dictates that it's "know", not "think" but logic doesn't always work in mafia. And I'm now torn between voting for you and keeping my vote on baldeagle.

@ RedCoyote

: You misattributed a quote of baldeagle to me. It was him that claimed to be "pretty good at pegging scum", not me.

Lark, are you thinking me/Bojo and Skull/Desp as your number one scumteam pick? Or has Neon/Blueberry overtaken one of us?

You and Bojo are my number one choice probably with baldeagle/Sanhora, particularly in view of his reaction to my vote on Bojo. I'm also considering Neon/Blueberry due to their zero scumhunting but with your vote change that's less likely. As I said earlier I don't think Desp/Skull are paired with baldeagle/sanhora who I think are more likely to be scum than they are.

One thing I do know for certain now is that either Neon is town or someone is bussing, chief suspect for the latter is RC then baldeagle.

Also, I'm willing to go through with the neon lynch and see who jumps off.

I was thinking the same.

VOTE: Neonizer

That's L-1.

[Lark]

Oh, sorry. I thought you were referencing a different post.

Which post did you think it was?

I'm not entirely sure I understand how you interpret that as a Scum-slip from Bojo. Can you explain it in a different way, please?

A conjecture is an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information. He said my claims were complete conjecture. If he really thought I was scum he wouldn't be accusing me of having incomplete information because scum have full information. Which means he doesn't genuinely think I am scum.

[Lark]

Good game!

[Lark]

Yeah, Bojo was the one I was pretty sure of too. It's a pity Neon and BB both flaked though.

Lastly, I'm sorry if I got on anyone's nerves this game. (Especially you, Lark. I know I grilled you pretty hard.)

I didn't have any problem with that. :)