Open 544: Tit for Tat (Game Over)

[neil1113]

Hey guys, give me 12 hours (probably less, but you know... grace period and all that jazz... blah blah) to get through my read of this game so that I can lay my reads out for y'all. Until then, here's my mandatory

Unvote: thenewearth

. See you guys in a few!

[neil1113]

After 3 hours and 41 minutes, I'm done with my read through. I won't post all my reads, or lay out all the things I've made notes on considering well... 11 pages in Microsoft Office would probably be a dread to read right now. So I'm going to be as concise as possible, while still laying out what I've found:

Saki: Please, I think you're town. So I'm begging you, be active. I've ISO'd you several times, and had to reread through your posts multiple times. You have the ability to be great at this, you seem to be quite smart. I'm asking you, I don't care if you make a case against me if you wish, but please... be active. Don't kill this game with your inactiveness.

Titus: Stop talking about the vig. Period. I believe you're town, so act like it. If you want to discuss the logics of talking about the vig and how it benefits / does not benefit the town, we can do so without causing accusations. I will not say if I am the vig or not for two reasons. 1. If I am the vig, the scum wouldn't know. So if they target me at night, they have a 35% chance of getting it correctly, which seems really low to waste a kill on. 2. If I am not the vig, and the scum target me at night, at least the town still has their vig left. Let's be smart with what little weapons we have left.

Loran, I don't like you. I think it's your playing style, or your hypocrisy... it clashes a lot. But unfortunately, you're not one of my two scum reads. I can't wait to play in a game when you are though, I'd love to bury you and be the one responsible for your death. In (819) you talk about vig talk being anti-town, then in (820) you do the very thing you just said was anti-town. Since I don't think your scum, I have to consider you must just be stupid town. Work on that.

Here are my two scum-reads (sorry if it's not altogether and formatted nicely, I was writing my thoughts down as I went through 33 pages of non-sense):

1. Ibarra:
Within the first 14 pages, I notice Ibarra seems to be misleading already, trying to seem more wise then they appear to actually be. Quoting something like it's truth, when it's an opinion is not only misleading, but can be dangerous if people bite. (Post 5 compared to post 14). After seeing his post on 37, I had to sigh. It seems his playing style is just scummy, not his actual alignment. While it doesn't clear him from being scum, I'm going to have to change the way of judging his posts. Post 50, he contributes nothing but seems to push for the Town v. Town argument, adding fuel to the fire. Why? (p86) Still grasping for straws, but defending someone who seems to like you? Granted, I don't agree with my predecessors logic (posts 85 I believe), I still think your cover for her was unwarranted. (#310) Very uh... oppurtunistic post of yours there. (353) I can't hold in how scummy I think you are. Looking forward to you "try" and recap the game for me. (522) Not only did the post never come, you hammered. With little to no reasoning. (662) Fluff post. (664) Fluff... again. (665) You guessed it, fluff. You've done little to nothing to help the town out. You're "scum hunting" has been of little assistance at best, and you've served no purpose here except to wagon on the lynch candidates and keep your head low. Day 2 you've posted less and been less confrontational than Day 1, something scum would do if your partner just died and your numbers were cut... (712) before you try, no that was not an excuse. Exam's don't last two weeks.

-- Jon:
Ankamius makes a point that your mindset isn't making much sense, you're only response is to call it BS (738) so, rightfully so, Ank places a vote on you. You're response? (741) "You had bad calls reading up to page 7, so therefore the rest of your calls are invalid the rest of the game." - paraphrased. Then in (742) you soft-claim.

2. Lincolm:
I find it nerve-racking to see the vote count at post 22, and the sudden pull back in post 24 from Lincolm. I know it was the "RVS stage" of the game, yet it just doesn't sit right with me to see your name on a "wagon" and appear to be scared and pull your name back. He could truly have not realized he was on it, and the chances of that could be confirmed since he placed the first vote, but that's a moot fact for now imo. Post 41, he attempts to join another "wagon" without ever mentioning any others votes on them. He also in that post tries to grasp at air with his push at Flames. When there's already discussion, why try and change the path onto something less... informative? I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt, until you did it again (p54). Your post on 94, makes me curious if Celebloki would be your partner or not? (329) Reaching would be easy here, and you took it.

-- TNE:
Coming in for Lincolm at #223, and that was by far the most fluff filled and weakest introduction into a game I have ever read, with probably the worst reasoning I have seen in a long time. In #227 his reads, he mentions one of my scum reads as town, and then doesn't mention the other scum at all. (390) Yeah, you're willing to wagon either townie. Noted. (582) Don't act so heart broken over the flip... sigh, you weren't shocked because you knew before they flipped.

Hayate has posted little to nothing to address right now.




With that said, VOTE: Jon_h61. I appreciate the kind words, but I don't play "suck-up" in these games. You won't win me over by being good to me, but by being good to the town.

[neil1113]

VOTE: Hayate still.

So anything in hayete's case other than a little omgus mixed with a lot of "lurking is the biggest scum tell there is"?

So Hayete is scum and flips scum, who's your 2nd read? And why?

[neil1113]

EBWOP: "Say Hayete is scum and flips scum after today's lynch, who would be your 2nd read? And why?"

[neil1113]

You do realize you're wasting your breath going back and forth with town? Honestly when I posted, I didn't have much on Jon (still don't from my reads) as he's pretty good at saying a lot of words and having little to no point. It wasn't Jon I was suspicious of, it was his predecessors. The idea of Jon wanting to OMGUS me, on Day 2 when we need a good lynch to set the town ahead, shows me his interest is not in the desire of the town. It should show anybody this.

By the way, Loran: Really? PR fishing? You're putting words between the lines and using them as a basis for accusation. That's not how that works.

By the way, can we stop talking about the vig? Period? Like don't even mention the name? It gets tiring seeing town isolate who is who for scum. I'm not going to just give the game over to them like that, I'd highly recommend you don't either. (This was directed towards everybody.)

Loran is not scum. Titus is not scum. You two going back and forth are not helping anything. You both have a faint clue that each other are town. Trust it, or prove otherwise. Stop trying to grasp for air, use educated guesses not just guesses. Either act in the interest of the TOWN or replace yourself with someone who will. That's how you play Mafia.

Titus: Loran is a sarcastic player, let him be. I know sometimes he says idiotic things and does idiotic things. Push through that, don't let that influence your read. Now if he does something TRULY scummy, and not just idiotic, then be on to him. Until then, going in circles and saying things over and over again, eventually you'll say something that makes you sound scummy somewhat, and when you do, the person you're going in circles with will bite. It's a pointless debate. That's how we lynched Zekrom in the first place. You're repeating the steps.

Loran: I get it. It's your playing style. But for the sake of the betterment of the town, be fruitful with your posts. Say things that matter. Don't just fluff around. Acting scummy is great, when you're scum or individual. Not when you're town. Making other people doubt your alignment, will not help anyones case.

Saki: I understand what you're doing now. It took me a while, but I'm with you. After the latest reread when I ISO'd you and compared you to the other 3 games I read, I made the connection.

MTD: Think about where your vote is. You're going off of the Titus - Loran debate, which again is an exact replication of the Captain - Zekrom/Flames debate. Look it where it led us when we followed it then. Don't forget, YOU placed your vote on him, YOU were responsible for his lynch. Don't be so naive again. Look deep into where your vote is.

Jon: Let me just say first: You did not say you were town. Thus you did not claim. You did however imply it, with your word selection. Therefore you, through implication, claimed. That is, by definition, a soft claim. If you want to argue with me about definitions, don't waste your breath. It won't get either of us anywhere. Also... If I'm truly wrong about you, I apologize. But I don't think so. Your spot has given me scummy red flags the entire game as I read, and my eyes are locked on you. Going after Loran because he acted scummy with his sarcasm is the easiest lynch. I get that. But the easiest is not always the right one. If I'm wrong about you, which I strongly doubt, then Hayate should be our lynch candidate for today. If Hayate does not flip scum, I'll lynch myself. But if Hayate does, then you'll be my next target. (Considering I don't die tonight.)

P.S. The only reason I'm okay with lynching Hayate more than you, is simply because I'd rather have talking scum, then lurking scum. It's easier to read them.

Also to everyone else, is Jon / Hayate town or scum in your book, and why? Maybe I overlooked something that's an easy give-away, though I doubt it.

[neil1113]

Touhou, Fire Emblem, and Bowsers Potluck were the three I read through specifically.

And I mean, I understand your playing style now. Unfortunately. I didn't realize you were one of those people I guess. I was hoping you'd step it up here, but you're not going to. I'm not sure what would be needed to motivate you, because as I've seen in the other, when people press you and call you scum, you get upset and result to cursing, not defending. *sigh* I was hoping I guess.

[neil1113]

Hayate, admittedly I think I missed your reads. I'll go back and read through them to see if I can find them.

However:

Don't force a 1 v 1.

The point of doing so, would be if I had confidence on my reads, which I do. And if I have such confidence and I'm wrong, I deserve to lose/die. But I get where you're coming from, losing two townies because of 1 townies stupid "tunnel vision" is not the smartest play.

This actually pissed me off....

You know, I read through 1471 and I've read several places where people actually pushed you and challenged you, and I didn't see you have such a.. personal connection to your response when they attacked you then. It can only make me assume the reason you're so offended is because you're actually defensive. Why be defensive and take something so personal? In my experience, personally, that's a scum point of view. You defend yourself harder when you know the accusation is correct, because you don't want to be found out. Especially when one of your two partners have already been exposed. You realize, you have everything riding on you not being exposed. That, to me at least, seems like you have a much higher stake then a regular townie, and that's shown through your response... (by the way, AtE anyone?)

To everyone else:

Am I reaching here? Or can you follow my logic?

Jon:

Maybe I'll try again, I'm Town. I own it. I'll go down scum hunting till I'm gone. I'll probably be cussing the screen after I'm dead. You can tunnel me to the last post and I'll still be Town. I guess I'll just have to live with the annoyance of somebody, again tunneling me. Last time he was Town, and I never stopped him. We (Town) still won anyway. Besides, if you're scum, you'll eventually trip yourself up.

There's so much wrong with this statement. I'm not "tunneling" on you, I'm more than open to hearing others opinions (hence why I asked for them.) I didn't ask you to say you were town, I described to you the definition of a soft-claim and why I stated that you did. I clarified something, I did not ask anything else from you. Also, don't appeal to past situations. The chance of a situation of this game lining up with "last time" something like this happened is incredibly low. Comparisons like that appeal to fear, to make people afraid of making the same mistake that "some guy did some other time in some game somewhere on some site." That doesn't seem like a townie response to me.

But if you don't think those were viable scum strategies you mentioned, then you need to play more Mafia.

So now I dare to say, YOU are reaching. You're desperately trying to make something seem scummy. That's fine, if you're scum. Either way, answer me these questions then if you want to go there:

1. Why would scum stop a fight between two townies that's getting really hot, and from the others opinions could lead to a mislynch? What would they have to gain? Doesn't it seem like that is playing AGAINST your win condition?

2. Why is attempting to shut down the vig talk scummy? Again, why would scum not want people to consider who the vig is and to "talk it out" and perhaps accidentally spill, almost by process of elimination?

Yet you would sit back and call them, "viable scum strategies." That's not only reaching, that's misleading, misrepresenting, and casting suspicion on something that has no reason to be suspicious.

The tone and frustration sounds very Town.

Of course you would argue with me on my point, and fight to make my second suspect look town. He's your partner. Look at his other game, see if you find any point in which the "tone and frustration" comes out in a similar situation? I can see him fight back, and I can see him argue, but to get so personal so quickly? I didn't find a single situation.

Ank:

What exactly is the point of this? You just spent four lines arguing with yourself and your conclusion is that you don't know.

It's called filler text. It's what you do to talk a lot, and make it seem like you're saying / contributing a lot, but really you've only spun in circles and wasted the town's time reading your statement.

Loran:

So essentially your case against me is: "you're too nice / friendly, you must be scum!"

Right. You've furthered my point on how you play and confirmed everything I've said about you. I'm not going to bother to waste my time going in circles with you. You already drew one townie into it, I'm not going to let you draw another.

MTD:

What exactly do you see my posts as personally? If it's not town-based, and I'm not looking out for the interest of the town, what the hell have I been doing?

P-edit:

Jon:

I'm really hoping you help me firm up my read on the slot.

With that said, VOTE: Jon_h61. I appreciate the kind words, but I don't play "suck-up" in these games. You won't win me over by being good to me, but by being good to the town.

I'm obviously going to reexamine Neil's slot because I know at least one of his reads to be wrong.

Maybe not straight forward, Oh My God You're Scum! You didn't come right out and say it and vote for me. I admit. However, you casted suspicion on me, and you started doubting my spot's alignment, as soon as I called you out. OMGUS does not mean specifically you voted for me because I voted for you. There's the motive behind it, that OMGUS exposes. The, "you are suspicious of me now I'm going to in turn try and make you seem suspicious to others" motive. That's not townie behavior, that's scum behavior. That's running around, "crap he is on to me, I need to invalidate his posts and make HIM look like the suspicious one"... not "great, he is wrong. Let me clear up his reads, so we can look around together to find who the scum are." One comes from the basis of a foundational "bad guy" mindset, while the other comes from the "firming up that town read" of yours mindset, where town works with town.

Two VERY different responses, from VERY different mindsets. Which one do you think yours fit in?

[neil1113]

1. MTD, I'll address you in another post. All of the quotes are starting to get confusing.

2. Jon, I don't care if you're scum or town right now with this question (in other words, this has nothing to do with Open 544, but rather with Mafia in general), but for the sake of the rest of our time playing together, can you gather your thoughts together BEFORE you post? Going through a page and a half of your rambling is hard to address. I'm asking you to be considerate, regardless of alignment right now. Alright now back to the game.

After 3 hours and 41 minutes, I'm done with my read through. I won't post all my reads, or lay out all the things I've made notes on considering well... 11 pages in Microsoft Office would probably be a dread to read right now. So I'm going to be as concise as possible, while still laying out what I've found:

Going back through your posts in ISO. This caught my eye right off the bat. Thanks to Loran for mentioning it too (I know , I just said thank you to the person I'm voting)., that probably helped me to consider it more. So you joined the game, read it, and analyzed it and wrote 11 pages of Office pages in just under four hours. Yeah, with crap lines like this I'm leaning more heavily toward scum on you. Yes, I know OMGUS, and sarcastic OMGUS at that!

I can't really address that. I read through it when I originally got the replacement spot and then a little bit later, and then a little bit during the time of writing. However, the aprox. time frame was given as the time I was writing out everything I saw and thought during my read through of the game. I wasn't claiming I read through it, analyzed, and wrote 11 pages in that amount of time frame. I meant I wrote my pages during that time frame.

Saki: Please, I think you're town. So I'm begging you, be active. I've ISO'd you several times, and had to reread through your posts multiple times. You have the ability to be great at this, you seem to be quite smart. I'm asking you, I don't care if you make a case against me if you wish, but please... be active. Don't kill this game with your inactiveness.

From what I've read of Saki, this is usual Saki. So This looks like posturing, and not a real request. If Saki's posting would kill the game, it would have been dead page one.

I asked him not to kill the game with his inactiveness... saying that killing the game could be a potential result of being inactive. Are you arguing that point? I didn't say Saki you killed the game... I said don't kill it. It was warning him of a futuristic potential response, not regarding a past event. You're point here is invalid and moot, unless you are wanting to debate that inactiveness kills Mafia games, in which case I have severely overestimated your intelligence in playing Mafia.

Titus: Stop talking about the vig. Period. I believe you're town, so act like it. If you want to discuss the logics of talking about the vig and how it benefits / does not benefit the town, we can do so without causing accusations. I will not say if I am the vig or not for two reasons. 1. If I am the vig, the scum wouldn't know. So if they target me at night, they have a 35% chance of getting it correctly, which seems really low to waste a kill on. 2. If I am not the vig, and the scum target me at night, at least the town still has their vig left. Let's be smart with what little weapons we have left.

This (to me) sounds like scum who has just latched onto a point to buddy Town. You never say anything pertinent to help us (Town) understand why you have a Town read here. And there is no scum hunting going on, while you state the obvious.

I didn't layout all of my town reads and scum reads originally on purpose. I don't want people knowing who I think is null and who I think are town, because I've played scum before and I know how to manipulate people's reads. I don't want someone doing that to me.

Loran, I don't like you. I think it's your playing style, or your hypocrisy... it clashes a lot. But unfortunately, you're not one of my two scum reads. I can't wait to play in a game when you are though, I'd love to bury you and be the one responsible for your death. In (819) you talk about vig talk being anti-town, then in (820) you do the very thing you just said was anti-town. Since I don't think your scum, I have to consider you must just be stupid town. Work on that.

More buddying with a subtle? threat. I hope I'm not wrong in my read of you, because I'm finding you

very

scummy.

Buddying is solely dependent on the way you look at things. If I wanted to "buddy" him, I wouldn't have told him I didn't like him. Nor would I have called him out on being hypocritical. Believe it or not, I know how to make friends. I would hope you would too. To view this as buddying is a huge stretch, considering I exposed him for being stupid town... which I still believe he is.

-- Jon:Ankamius makes a point that your mindset isn't making much sense, you're only response is to call it BS (738) so, rightfully so, Ank places a vote on you. You're response? (741) "You had bad calls reading up to page 7, so therefore the rest of your calls are invalid the rest of the game." - paraphrased. Then in (742) you soft-claim.

I skipped the stuff you commented on about my predecessor, I want to look over your references before I comment. I've already commented here once, but I want to reiterate, I consider every post from Ank, I consider every post form everyone. I consider the validity, try to figure out the motivation, and the mindset. You are basing one comment from a back and forth that was happening in as close to real time as you can get on Mafiascum. My comments after (and actions,

I

think) prove this is untrue.

Was my statement untrue at the time in which I said it? Did you not tell Ank in a paraphrased manner what I said you did? Did Ank not make a point that you called BS? You're not addressing the argument I stated, you're simply trying to say... "you were in the moment?" Did I get your implication correctly? Yes you were arguing, that doesn't to me invalidate my point, but it could in turn actually prove it in my eyes. I'm really not entirely sure what you were getting at here... if I'm wrong, tell me.

To anyone else, ie my Town reads, Can you give me an argument as to why I shouldn't switch my vote?

You're appealing to the masses to prove my innocence? You've yet to make any case on me, and you've claimed for 33 pages you had a town read, and then in 4 you've changed your mind completely and really, your only response when you first did it was indeed OMGUS. Which I already explained how in the posts before this. You're trying to rally the town, but you sir are in no way a leader. Stop trying to play politics. If you want to make a case, make an ACTUAL case. Have SOME sort of evidence to support your accusations. Show what I said / did to be scummy, not just "how it made you feel..."

You do realize you're wasting your breath going back and forth with town? Honestly when I posted, I didn't have much on Jon (still don't from my reads) as he's pretty good at saying a lot of words and having little to no point. It wasn't Jon I was suspicious of, it was his predecessors. The idea of Jon wanting to OMGUS me, on Day 2 when we need a good lynch to set the town ahead, shows me his interest is not in the desire of the town. It should show anybody this.

You know the old saw "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullsh*t.

Again, just like you did with Ank, you can't disprove a point so you call BS... that's not a defense Jon. That's called losing an argument. You know I'm right, and that's why you shut your mouth.

I'm obviously going to reexamine Neil's slot because I know at least one of his reads to be wrong. Oops soft claimed again.

pedit yes it did Loran.

This is the post he accuses me of threatening OMGUS. Is this supposed to scare me away from voting you? When you become my number one scum read, I'm going to vote you and NO amount of threatening and lines of "oh noes, that's a scum tell is going to stop me. Just letting you know.

Threatening? When did I threaten you? When did I try and scare you away? I didn't threaten that you were doing OMGUS, I

PROVED IT

. I exposed your motives, and that's why you had nothing to say to it. Even here, again, you make no case for your motivation behind why I accused you of it, but instead went off on your own little sarcastic expression of opinion. You didn't defend yourself, because like before, again... you couldn't.

Loran: I get it. It's your playing style. But for the sake of the betterment of the town, be fruitful with your posts. Say things that matter. Don't just fluff around. Acting scummy is great, when you're scum or individual. Not when you're town. Making other people doubt your alignment, will not help anyones case.

If I thought that you had a chance of being scum, I'd think you were trying to discredit Town, so others would give them less credence. But then I'd have to be considering that my top scum read was Town. Maybe I'm scum playing head games with myself. (Sarcasm doesn't become me, I'll take a step back and take a big breath,)

Again, you're fluff posts don't fool anyone. Except maybe STD, which I will get to him in a minute. You make accusations like "I'd think you were trying to discredit town" without actually showing how my post would have discredited anybody? Because I told him he's acting scummy? That doesn't discredit what he says, it just puts him into perspective. For myself and anyone else who reads it.

You know, I read through 1471 and I've read several places where people actually pushed you and challenged you, and I didn't see you have such a.. personal connection to your response when they attacked you then. It can only make me assume the reason you're so offended is because you're actually defensive. Why be defensive and take something so personal? In my experience, personally, that's a scum point of view. You defend yourself harder when you know the accusation is correct, because you don't want to be found out. Especially when one of your two partners have already been exposed. You realize, you have everything riding on you not being exposed. That, to me at least, seems like you have a much higher stake then a regular townie, and that's shown through your response... (by the way, AtE anyone?)To everyone else:Am I reaching here? Or can you follow my logic?

Dude, that's an ongoing game if I am not mistaken, I will most definitely not comment on that.

Is that an ongoing game? If so, holy crap I'm sorry. I read through his posts, I didn't even stop to think if the game was over. I didn't read through to the end.

Maybe not straight forward, Oh My God You're Scum! You didn't come right out and say it and vote for me. I admit. However, you casted suspicion on me, and you started doubting my spot's alignment, as soon as I called you out. OMGUS does not mean specifically you voted for me because I voted for you. There's the motive behind it, that OMGUS exposes. The, "you are suspicious of me now I'm going to in turn try and make you seem suspicious to others" motive. That's not townie behavior, that's scum behavior. That's running around, "crap he is on to me, I need to invalidate his posts and make HIM look like the suspicious one"... not "great, he is wrong. Let me clear up his reads, so we can look around together to find who the scum are." One comes from the basis of a foundational "bad guy" mindset, while the other comes from the "firming up that town read" of yours mindset, where town works with town.

You sound like a fundamentalist who will never ever, ever, consider that they might be wrong. That makes that situation I alluded to even more pertinent. If you are Town we might be in trouble if you start taking a leadership role. shudder

I'll gladly consider I'm wrong. I am considering that I could be wrong, which is the only reason I'm still responding to you. I'm giving you a chance to defend yourself, and instead you're only furthering my view of you and solidifying it in my mind.

@ neil Why are you killing the links in your posts? It just makes it harder to respond to them, not impossible.

For the sake of sounding like a kid, I have no idea what you mean. Killing my links?

@ neil We seem to agree on Town slots, so... Do you agree Titus and MTD are Town? If so, I'd say we have the beginning of a good Town bloc. Loran is looking Townier than you (is that even a word?). The jury's still out on Ank, but he puts thought into his responses, and I'll give him extra credit for that. I'm getting the feeling that Saki and Hopkirk are going to be useless in scum hunting and it makes me wonder why they play if they don't want to help Town. If they're Town.

Yes I think Titus is town. MTD, I don't have much of a read on right now. Loran I already explained he was town. Ank, Saki, and Hop I have null reads on as well as MTD. MTD makes me think he's town on one page, and then scum on the other, to be honest.

Question to Saki and Hop - Do you feel you are playing to your win condition?

This is a GREAT question, one I'd like addressed as well.

@ MTD I had a Town read on neil's slot, but

1.

his play hasn't sounded Town or sincere since he started posting. I wa looking over his posts before I checked back here, (uh, and reading that other Tit For Tat game you were in Loran) and

2.

every time I look at his posts I want to rage so I'm going to say neil is quickly heading to the top of the list. Loran is the most important (to me) slot to get a good read on ATM. Right now I'm starting to lean Town actually. Ank would be my next in importance to sort out. Hay is still kinda null, but more posts from him will be helpful, I hope. I don't even know what to do with Saki and Hop, just let 'em hang around and hope they aren't scum, maybe???

1. Proof is in the pudding. You've yet to invalidate any of my posts, and by calling them insincere is hardly invalidation as much as it is opinionated reading. If my play hasn't sounded town, then show me how it benefits the scum's win condition rather than town's? Rather then saying things like:

2. "I just want to rage." Hardly any ground for a vote, is because someone makes you want to rage. Get over yourself.

1.

This probably isn't much help, but neil as number one and a lurker as a compromise vote?

2.

A quick note - even in the game where neil won, he was cautioned by more experienced players that his play that game was dangerous and could have potentially destroyed Town.

Neil

, this does have to do with the game state here, and isn't just an AtF. I'm trying to help Town get an idea of your play style to help them get a better read on your slot.

3.

Neil's play this game is nonsensical and appears he is making things up on the fly.

1. Seriously? Can anyone besides Jon tell me how this point is a help to the town? You've made no case on me, you have nothing on me except that I offended you and hurt your feelings. You have to stretch to say anything I've done is scummy, though it's not too hard to see that I've tried to help the town. You must be a moron to assume I would be a good number one vote. And the idea of a lurker as a compromise vote? Really? There's plenty of fish here in the sea that you've done a good job of distracting with your senseless debate with me, yet you'd go for a lurker as the compromise vote? You're not trying to help the Town at all by lynching someone who statistically (lurking) has a better chance of flipping town than scum.

2. I don't even have to address this, because you knew exactly what you were doing with the AtF. That's why you called yourself out on it for me. Except you just simply tried to dismiss it before you could be called out on it. Just dismissing something, does not make it any more or less true for your information...

3. Nonsensical? I can name plenty of others who have called you scum (or scummy) and some who still view you that way, as well as those who have done the same towards Hayate. Nonsensical? Unless you have proof, here you are again trying to discredit me by simply calling "BS" like you did against Ank. It doesn't work, Jon. Also, making things up on the fly? What have I said that has not been true? Making things up means lying Jon, put your money where your mouth is. Name one thing I have stated that was a lie.

@ neil the game was Newbie 1382, and the tunneler was Kattaze. That won't matter because you'll refuse to even consider you're wrong. That isn't even exactly good scum play, but to each their own.

I will be looking that game up actually, I tried to find it earlier but failed. I didn't think about a Newbie game. And like I've said before, when I gave an open appeal to the rest of the crowd about what their view would be on you, (which ironically nobody responded to), I'm more than open to being wrong. I told everyone I might have missed something obvious, so I'd love to hear their views. That's called being OPEN Jon, you know... being available to hear. That actually proves that here, you completely lied and misrepresented me. Great job proving you're town so far... lying / mis-repping is a great town-tell.

[neil1113]

MTD, this one's for you.

The point of doing so, would be if I had confidence on my reads, which I do. And if I have such confidence and I'm wrong, I deserve to lose/die. But I get where you're coming from, losing two townies because of 1 townies stupid "tunnel vision" is not the smartest play.

Beside some strange wording here, whose "tunnel vision" do you mean?

Strange wording? And I was speaking about myself here.

There's so much wrong with this statement. I'm not "tunneling" on you, I'm more than open to hearing others opinions (hence why I asked for them.) I didn't ask you to say you were town, I described to you the definition of a soft-claim and why I stated that you did. I clarified something, I did not ask anything else from you. Also, don't appeal to past situations. The chance of a situation of this game lining up with "last time" something like this happened is incredibly low. Comparisons like that appeal to fear, to make people afraid of making the same mistake that "some guy did some other time in some game somewhere on some site." That doesn't seem like a townie response to me.

there is so much wrong with this statement. He never said you asked anything of him. Also what the fuck do you want him to say? That he is scum? In other words, saing "I am scum" is

not

a softclaim, I wouldn't call it a claim at all as you just wouldn't say anything else, ever.

1. I didn't say he said I asked him of anything, I was clearing up with him that I did not. His response was one that would normally be given to someone inquiring about information concerning him, which I was not doing. I clarified that. 2. If he is scum, it'd be nice for him to say so, yes. Either way, your entire point here was either lost in my reading of it, or you had none.

So now I dare to say, YOU are reaching. You're desperately trying to make something seem scummy. That's fine, if you're scum. Either way, answer me these questions then if you want to go there:

1. Why would scum stop a fight between two townies that's getting really hot, and from the others opinions could lead to a mislynch? What would they have to gain? Doesn't it seem like that is playing AGAINST your win condition?

Towncred. If you think town-tells are this easy, you need to play more mafia as well

That is the WORST reason to do something like that. Yes you get towncred, but the bad outweighs the good. I don't really want to discuss scum strategy here with you, but if you've ever played scum, there's a lot here that you'd lose by shutting down two fights that will easily lead to a mislynch and shutting down the vig talk, a lot more then you'd win by getting a little bit of "town-cred."

2. Why is attempting to shut down the vig talk scummy? Again, why would scum not want people to consider who the vig is and to "talk it out" and perhaps accidentally spill, almost by process of elimination?

see above. Also as it was pointed out you didn't shut down the vig talk, just said you would and kept talking about it.

It was not "pointed out", and what little was mentioned was already discredited. I did attempt to shut the vig talk down, I didn't keep talking about it. I simply mentioned everyone's conversation about the vig, and asked that it would be stopped. I wasn't just going to ask for it to be stopped without an explanation as to why though, so that's the only reason why I continued with that conversation until I was done responding. And if you notice, shutting it down is exactly what I accomplished, because afterwards there was

No More

talk about who the vig could be. If that's not shutting it down, I don't know what you would consider it then?

Yet you would sit back and call them, "viable scum strategies." That's not only reaching, that's misleading, misrepresenting, and casting suspicion on something that has no reason to be suspicious.

fluff attack.

Fluff? Really? Calling something scummy to cast suspicion on somebody by misrepresenting them to appear scummy is a fluff attack? I call it pretty damn good evidence. Maybe you should rethink your definition of fluff?

Ank:

What exactly is the point of this? You just spent four lines arguing with yourself and your conclusion is that you don't know.

It's called filler text. It's what you do to talk a lot, and make it seem like you're saying / contributing a lot, but really you've only spun in circles and wasted the town's time reading your statement.

random attack. Hint: that question was not directed at you.

I wasn't answering the question like it was directed at me. I was answering it for him, because he probably wouldn't say what was REALLY behind it. Especially if, you know, he's scum.

Loran:

So essentially your case against me is: "you're too nice / friendly, you must be scum!"

Choose between these two: 1.Have you read his post at all? 2. Do you know anything about sarcasm? He is ridiculing every argument of yours and you just say his case was you were too nice?

He didn't ridicule my argument, he kept mocking me for being nice. My question to you, did YOU read it at all? Obviously he was being sarcastic, but the point was that he kept quoting my posts like they were nice, when he was trying to make the point the underlying tone was scum-based. I get what he was trying to do, but it doesn't change the fact that his entire case was that "you're being too friendly, so you must not truly be genuine."

Right. You've furthered my point on how you play and confirmed everything I've said about you. I'm not going to bother to waste my time going in circles with you. You already drew one townie into it, I'm not going to let you draw another.

Again, who do you mean?

Specifically speaking, the Loran - Titus debate.

1.

I thought OMGUS meant Oh My God You Suck? (quite sure actually)

2.

How about the possibility of him actually finding your accusation of hhim scummy?

it was.

3.

The possibilities you give both imply that he thinks you are town, which he does not.

1. I'm sure it does, that doesn't change the meaning. So what did you hope to do by making that point, other than fluff?
2. I'm sure he thinks my post is scummy, BECAUSE of OMGUS. You're either not reading, or you're purposefully trying to stretch whatever you can to make something appear. Here's a hint that even the scientist of the world can't wrap their mind around: You can't get something from nothing.
3. The only time I ever accused him of calling me town (which he implied) was when he actually did imply it. I'm not sure what you're referring to.

I am still thinking he may well be scum, but I think it is better to lynch neil as the after his recent post and after rereading the one before that,

he seems at least equally scummy to me and I think we will get more info from his flip

than from Loran, as Loran has called everyone beside neil and Ank town. So yeah, he has successfully outweighed the null-to-town read I had on the slot before...
VOTE: Neil

Oh, I'll add, that this may be due to change as

it is mostly me going for a compromise lynch

(and one I hope to get more info from) atmo.

The bold is one of the main reasons I doubt my town-read on you. 1. You have no reason to question my alignment to the town. 2. A compromise lynch isn't going to help the town. You don't need to compromise anything. 3. A lynch that you truly think you'd get the most information from, is

NOT A COMPROMISE LYNCH

. Lynching the person you find "equally scummy to the most scummy person" which is in fact, what you said, as well as "will give you the most information" is called the GREATEST lynch. You can't GET a better lynch than that. The fact that you keep calling it a compromise, makes me consider you lying. You're either lying about your reasons to vote for me, or you're lying about me being equally scummy and thinking you'll get the most info. You might know, you'll get no info, which is why you would lie. But the only way you can know that, is if in fact you are scum. Also, calling it a compromise makes you have a "get-out-of-jail-free" card when I flip and I'm town. Oh it's not your fault... it was a "compromise."

[neil1113]

I will be looking that game up actually, I tried to find it earlier but failed. I didn't think about a Newbie game. And like I've said before, when I gave an open appeal to the rest of the crowd about what their view would be on you, (which ironically nobody responded to), I'm more than open to being wrong. I told everyone I might have missed something obvious, so I'd love to hear their views. That's called being OPEN Jon, you know... being available to hear. That actually proves that here, you completely lied and misrepresented me. Great job proving you're town so far... lying / mis-repping is a great town-tell.

I haven't read this yet, but I will. You can't use this post to

prove

how OPEN you are. No matter how many arguments you think you can win, I'm still Town, scum hunting. I'll commit all kinds of Logical Fallacies and what someone may say are scum tells along the way. I've heard a lot of ridicules things along the way too (meaning since I've started playing Mafia) But I'm going to keep doing my best to find the liars (ie sum).

Look at the time where I told Yosarian he's won the argument, right before I hung 'em for the win while you're looking up games. I'm not afraid to lose an argument, as long as I can find scum.

I'm

not

saying this is what's happening, but you seem to use meta too. And I think it's a good read too.

I will read it, trust me. I haven't yet, but I will. And when you read it, it'd be great to hear your response. As far as you being scum, I find your play to be leaning more on the scum side than the town, but that's lessened a lot from my original view that you were absolutely scum. The thing about that, is you being town really screws up my read on everything. While I won't give you the benefit of the doubt because you're seemingly less scummy than I thought your responses to me would appear, I will give you the benefit of the doubt because you're TRYING to be pro-town, even if you're not town.

UNVOTE: Jon_H61 (This means, there is a candidate I'd rather lynch / see responses for before you. For now.)

I'm going to reread through the past few bits and see what I can come up with then. Right now, Hayate is going to get my vote unless something really pops out to me. Jon, can you give me your analysis of the who's who (scum and town) again, revamped with the last few pages in mind? And sure, you can put me in there too. Though, as a hint, I won't be lynching myself.

[neil1113]

Jon:

Off Topic:

It's funny, but I get the feeling you'd deny you being scum, even if we quoted your role PM jk

I wanted to respond to this off topic, but I feel like on-topic it would incriminate me lol. But I do enjoy your sense of humor.

On Topic:

How does me OMGUSing show my interests isn't the desire of Town? If you're a scum read of mine not OMGUSing you (which if I'm not misunderstanding you is anything which questions your Townieness) would be antiTown. You said earlier that it was my saying I needed to reexamine your slot that was the OMGUS, right?

OMGUS to create suspicion that you never expressed before said suspicion was casted, to me shows a lack of desire to cooperate with a defense, and rather cover your own ass by trying to shift the FoS (so to speak) off of you and onto somebody else. That's the exact job description of scum. Try to get the eyes off of you and just blend in. Lynch someone else. As Town, you don't win if you're alive in the end, you win if the TOWN is. If I thought for one second lynching me would help anybody, trust me, I'd be arguing much differently. It's not the ACT of OMGUS that is a scum tell, but the motivation behind it. And like I described before, OMGUS is a self-preservation strategy to make sure you win, which is a selfish act in it's roots. That's not good nature, that's bad. Even if you're town, OMGUS'ing someone rather than actually scum hunting for yourself, can easily distract you, especially if that person is town.

You have to remember, no matter how much you feel you're a scum hunting god, they are still your opinions.

I do feel like I'm a scum hunting god. *nods*

Please if you want to have a 1v1 discussion, let's do it in real time, name a time and I'll see about making it.

This is going to sound weird to a lot of people, but this might be the most town-sided thing I have read from you all game. The fact that instead of going back and forth with someone who may or may not be town in your opinion (though I'm hesitant to say otherwise, considering your original post to me), you'd rather start searching and take a step back to see your options and who maybe we SHOULD be pressuring that isn't receiving any pressure because through our discussion with each other, we've both successfully tunneled each other while achieving almost nothing in response to the other few in the game. If I read your motivation correctly, I'm seriously wrong about my read on you.

I'm going to finish reading that Tit for Tat game Loran is in and then come back and go over every single player in the game.

I'm looking forward to this more than you know.

[neil1113]

MTD: Oh lord...

During your first post, I found very little that was even worth responding too. Here's what I got:

Your case is interesting:
"I doubt my townread because:"
"You say I might be scum"
"Compromising is bad"
"You are not compromising"
"You say your vote is a compromise all the time [misrep] so you might be lying"
"So, yeah either you are lying about your reasons or about me being scummy and giving info [which actually are my reasons]"
"So you are scum"
"also saying the magic word 'compromise' makes you unsuspicious if you are wrong of course. [I would actually look for scum within "compromise voters" the most]

Your "synopsis" (and I use that word lightly) of my case is fascinating. Either you can't read, it's impossible for you to truly understand big boy language, or you are purposefully misrepresenting everything I said in this post (and the rest of your... "content") to make it seem like there is nothing on you. I can't understand most of your responses, though I will say the motivation is seemingly anti-town. Why would a townie mis-rep on purpose? I can't wrap my mind around it... and I don't consider you stupid town like someone else in this game, so I can't give you that benefit of the doubt.

2. Point is, this was not a claim, softclaim or other, it was nothing, nothing that says anything about alignment.
Saying "I am scum" would be a claim, yes

You're arguing definition. Saying "I am scum" is a claim. Saying "My team is trying to kill the town" is a soft-claim. Why? Because a soft-claim is an implication of a claim, while a claim is exactly that: a claim. I was speaking about his soft-claim of being town. I don't care how many times you say "it was not a softclaim, or other, or nothing"... it doesn't change the fact that what was said and done, was exactly the definition of what I called it. I can't believe I just wasted my time discussing definitions with you.

1.

It was one fight, not two.

2.

Didn't look like it was leading to a mislynch, also, you are assuming the fight is between two townies, how about one of them being a scumbuddy?

3.

Shutting down vig talk doesn't make you loose anything actually, does it?

4.

Your response showed that it is
a) not "a little towncred", but rather much, at least in your opinion
b) a viable scum strategy.

1. I misspoke. Sorry.
2. It COULD HAVE led to a mislynch. Rather it looked like it to you or not, doesn't change that fact. Because it DIDNT lead to a mislynch, makes stopping the fight anti-town? You're reasoning is baffling. You're purposefully making perfectly reasonable town-like behavior, seem scummy to stretch and make a point that doesn't exist.
3. Again, it's not about what they (mafia)

LOSE

but rather what they would stop from

GAINING

by stopping Vig talk. You can't be ignorant of that, which means you're choosing to ignore the evidence before you and stretching to make someone look scummy by presenting something that does not exist. That's not town play.
4. Uh, no it didn't? (This defense is as good of a defense as your attack is as good of an attack. Get the point?)

[neil1113]

1. Ank - I would but I would probably be majorly biased. I'd highly recommend you just read them, and get it out of the way. Also here's a question for you: What are your reads? You're vote if I'm not mistaken, is currently on MTD. Why? What is your case specifically for him?

2. MTD - Please, lay out your case against me. I won't waste a huge thing like we have before trying to prove you wrong, etc. I just want to see what you really have against me. Also, next time we get into a discussion, can we find a different way to quote / use tags? That got really confusing for both of us, and I'm sure others who tried to follow it. Also, if I'm not scum, who would your other lynch options be today? If you're not willing to consider the idea that I could be town, then you're opinion is no longer of value to anyone in this game, just fyi. Jon and I have both discussed that as well.

3. Jon - speaking of you, your vote is on Loran. Is he really the best lynch for today? Do you think you'd get the most information from his flip? If you don't mind laying it out again, can you lay out in a concise form why you're okay with his lynch? Also as a side note: What do you think of Hayati?

4. Titus - You're on the Loran wagon as well. I understand from your altercation with him, why you could assume he was scum. However, for the sake of reading, can you lay out your entire case? What do you have on him?

5. Hayati - Your vote is on me. Is that where you think it best fits? If so, what is your case? Like MTD, I'd like to know. Also as a side note: What do you think of Jon's slot?

6. Hop - Your vote on Hayati, while I can see being a good one in my own opinion, what is your case specifically?

7. Saki - You're not voting at all. What is your opinion on lynch subjects? Who should the town focus on, and why?

P.S. I tried to not be biased in my responses here. However, these text walls back and forth might be doing something for your read on me, which is great. But.. it's not helping my reads on those who are able to silently sit back and watch, while pitching in a little fluff here and a little fluff there. Now we have roughly around a day (give or take a few hours) before we are going to have to come to a lynch decision. As of currently, after reviewing the thread, my options range from Hayati, MTD, and Jon with Saki as a viable option. Not just for lurking, but truly for lack of content. It's not even so much that Saki can't talk, because if you notice whenever he's challenged, he's responsive pretty... quickly. More so than when he's left to his own. I don't think Saki is town, as much as I don't have a read on him. While Jon is leaning scum, MTD seems to solidify his place the more he talks (seriously, take a look at some of his attacks / posts), and Hayati I should be laying a case on shortly once I can gather my thoughts on him. I say that specifically because it goes back to his counter-parts that he's come in for.

P.S.S. We need to come to a conclusion as the town. We need to figure out who the best viable option is today for a lynch. Please, don't just say "It's him!" or "It's them!" That isn't going to help anyone. And with the set-up, we can't really afford a mislynch and then have one of us die tonight. That'll sway the momentum over to the scum.

[neil1113]

I won't be defending myself against your cases, considering pretty much 100% of them are self-assumed. I cannot argue against your view of my posts. You can look at one post and say it's obviously me trying to XYZ, while in reality that's not what I said/did at all. If you take my posts for face-value, like for example Ank is doing, and you actually look at the people voting me (pretty much the entire scum read for everyone else, apart from "me") then you'd see why my wagon is so fishy. I won't self-hammer because I'm trying to have enough hope that the two townies, whoever they are, can see what's going on with my wagon and not just tunnel / half-ass their vote against me.

As for looking over the posts, Ank I told you I can't stand Loran. He's a terrible player, but I don't think that solidifies him as Mafia. With Hayaki replacing out, I'm not sure if his inactiveness is because of real life problems or because he's scum. It was kinda something I was clinching to as well. So Hayaki would not be a comfortable vote for me right now. MTD, Loran, or Jon would be my votes. Loran I would vote for, only because I can see everyone being screwed in LyLo with him still alive if I'm wrong about the scum team between Jon and MTD or Hayati.

[neil1113]

Saki, if you'd like to hammer me, feel free. Just remember, two of the scum are on my wagon when I flip.

However if not, out of the viable options (Loran, MTD, Jon) who would you be more willing to place your vote towards? (Unless you have another candidate?)

[neil1113]

Jon: (Quoting post #978)

neil used a few words out of this post to make his paraphrase say I'd never consider anything else that Ank would say.

You forget, that I made sure everyone knew it was MY PARAPHRASE of what you said. Also, my point wasn't that you would

NEVER

consider, but that you discredited him and invalidated his opinion which is a scummy thing to do to someone for reasons that he called a townie scum. Guess what, so have you? Does that mean everything you say should not be taken with much credence? Don't be a hypocrite.

This is shortly after the mushroom comment from me. neil never addressed the issue we were having, just used a few words to paint the situation the way he wanted Town to believe was happening.

Where is the evidence to this statement? It's easy to just claim things, prove it.

The soft claim thing he tried to blow up into an issue is a non event. But he can try to make something out of it work again if he wants to.

I've already proven it was a soft-claim. You're using in Psychology what we called "Soft Manipulation." It's where you drop hints to being town by using phrases (not exactly, but close to the like of:) "We as the town" and "Being town, I can say.." It's not the phrase, but the fact that you're speaking as though you are confirmed town so nobody should question you. That's manipulation. It's not about what you say, but HOW you say it.

I don't want to quote it, but the buddy attempt with Saki didn't sit well either.

There was no buddying? In fact, what you convienently didn't mention, was the fact that I called Saki OUT on his lurking and being silent. Buddying play, (debatable), would be to allow him to remain silent and to just leave him alone while crediting him towniness. Calling someone out, is not buddying. Just because I did it in a way that I thought would make him respond, does not mean I was trying to buddy up to him. That's a load of crap.

neil, it's too easy to make walls out of your scumhunting, if you want to list what you think are my scum tells I promise I will refrain from any dismissive quips and address them politely and civilly. If we are both Town, one of us (or both) is giving scum a lot of help.

I already have. And you have not defended yourself. In fact, looking through your responses to me, and the more I look at the cases you've made towards myself and others, the more I'm confident with my case on you.

As for my wagon: Jon's reaching (which I've proven several times) is appalling. Yeah, MTD is with you because he's reached the same way by trying to follow your logic. Meanwhile: Loran.. well he's Loran. And Hayati is your scum buddy. So my wagon is pretty clear to me.

Jon, you can be arsed to post multiple posts and say a bunch of things, but you can't be arsed to post all of these alleged things I've done for... what purpose?

Saki: You're three are Loran, Hopkirk, and Hayate. I don't feel like lynching Loran because "he's a VI" is a good reason. Yes he's annoying. Yes nobody here really likes his playing style. But that can't really be a sign of scumminess. Lynching him off of "policy" which I use lightly, is a very bad play in my humble opinion. As for Hayate, well he seems to be on everyone's radar, but hiding in the background of it because of his inactiveness. For that reason alone (like I said, I'd prefer active scum = Jon, to lurking scum = Hataye)

VOTE: Hayate

And when he flips scum, rest assured you'll be my next focus Jon. Yes, I'm proclaiming next day period I will be tunneling you and pushing for your lynch until I'm blue in the face (or killed tonight, which I wouldn't be surprised if you do even though you know it'll set you up to be lynched tomorrow.. unless of course you're going for the "I was set-up" defense which I can see you doing as flailing scum.)

[neil1113]

@ Titus Do you

really

feel neil is Town?

Titus's posts:

Neil is town bc of tla being town. His effort is also indicative of towniness.

(On the same page as this question was asked.)

874:

neil are totes town.

815:

Ranking town to scum excluding myself.
Neil
Jon
MTD

Ank

Hopkirk
Saki

Hayate
Loran

An easy ISO reveals his stance. Can you inform us Jon, why asking deliberately over and over again a question that has not only been answered 3 times, but that was answered on the

VERY SAME PAGE

reveals any town-motivation? In fact, that seems like fluff to look like you're actively questioning, while trying to convince others to jump on your really weak, and really stretched opinion, and making them avoid questioning the ones who they normally would be. If I look at this like a scum-motivated post, which I would assume it would be since you know, you're scum... then my question is, Jon, who are you trying to protect that you're scared Titus will look into? Is it your buddy Hayate? The fact that I called Hayate out, and the fact that you know Titus, who does actually read my posts, will look into him, makes me wonder if you're trying to strongman your way to force Hayate out of people's minds and force feed them me. Don't be stupid Jon, you're not dealing with stupid town. Well... for most of us.

[neil1113]

So what you're telling me Jon, is that the most town-motivated thing to do (the most helpful thing for the town) is to lynch one of us, even if that means lynching you?

You really aren't going to even try defending yourself, or even looking at others for a lynch. Yet you claim me as the tunneler? I gave you a chance to defend yourself, you didn't. You spun in circles. You claimed things that weren't true, and pushed your twisted view point towards us as if you led the town or something. Jon, I'm not voting you right now. Yet you'd still try and redirect the town to vote for one of us, saying it's the "best thing for the town." Even, by your own confession, if we were both town.

Do you see why that's confusing? You, as a "townie" if you are, are saying making the town choose between two townies (again, by your own confession "even if we were on the same team") rather than finding the real scum around us, would be a better option lynching today? You're forcing the town's hands (or attempting to) and you're telling me that is town motivated...

I disagree Jon. Get over yourself. You want to work together, fine. I told you I wasn't voting you today, my vote is on Hayate. Look at Hayate and tell me what you see. Tell me your other reads. Tell me who you want to lynch, BESIDES me today. Because as far as I'm concerned (and others, ex. Titus have pointed out) this "tunneling" thing you keep claiming I am doing, is the very thing you're doing.

[neil1113]

Btw this isn't really a scumtell IMO as often scum would be especially interested in looking like they want to help town and therefore put much effort into it.

Ah. WIFOM at it's finest, ladies and gentlemen.

I know it's your opinion, but from my opinion, experience, and practical applications, I can fully say you are speaking of personal playing style. Some scum want to appear towny, so they try their best to "scum hunt" without actually doing so and that can appear as long text walls, while really saying nothing. Other scum have the same motivation, but don't like to fluff so instead they don't try nearly as hard, and give weak to no reads while making it appear like they are doing something. This scum #1 might post up walls and walls of nothing accusing nobody or everybody of everything, while this scum #2 may lurk or only comment when spoken to, or when they feel like things are getting quiet, so not to get called out for no content.

In the end, it's all WIFOM but to say OFTEN scum do something is to make every single person in this game with a text wall look scummy. Even those who are legitimately trying to play. Congratulations. WIFOM by the way, is almost always anti-town minded. Just FYI.

[neil1113]

With the "this is stupid" I meant making a discussion out of that.

I wasn't honestly trying to start a discussion out of that. That last sentence was my point summarized. You make other people who want to truly put their time and effort into building a case that turns into a text wall, question themselves because they "might look scummy." It was more about your idea of playing styles that I was addressing. I wasn't saying you're for sure scum BECAUSE of your WIFOM. And trust me, that wasn't meant to start building a case on you.

[neil1113]

I'm not even going to bother responding to your attempt at making points there Jon, you've so twisted what I said and made it to be something it's not, that it's not even reputable. I can't argue with something I've never said. In fact you are so far gone, even your conclusion is stretched and made to make me look like someone I'm not. Look at the evidence, I've even said the exact opposite that you claim about me, and yet you still claim it. That's really sad, and I just can't figure out why you would stretch such a huge stretch to make me out to be scum.

Since neil can't work with me, and he's no longer willing to try to work things out, (indeed hasn't been since he took the slot) I'd prefer if he spent his time telling others of my badness.

Except to state such a matter, you conveniently left out my very last message directed at you in this post:

I disagree Jon. Get over yourself.

You want to work together, fine.

I told you I wasn't voting you today, my vote is on Hayate. Look at Hayate and tell me what you see. Tell me your other reads. Tell me who you want to lynch, BESIDES me today. Because as far as I'm concerned (and others, ex. Titus have pointed out) this "tunneling" thing you keep claiming I am doing, is the very thing you're doing.

I quoted the whole thing since you know, you'd probably stretch and say I was speaking out of context or whatever...

I find it weird how you make the case about me, yet you've shown nothing behind your accusations. And when asked? You can't be arsed to do so for whatever reasons you may come up with at the time. You don't actually have any case against me, yet to make up one, you use AtF. And then you could careless that you're using a scummy tactic to appeal to the masses and force a mislynch. You could literally careless. You said it yourself, even if I was town, one of us has to go. And then you have the audacity to tell me that

I AM THE ONE

that won't work things out with you? Remember, it was you who just came back and attacked me after the last thing I said to you was willing to work together to find a suitable lynch. You're the biggest, hypocritical liar I have ever come across in my entire time of playing Mafia. And to make things worse, you're a terrible liar.

UNVOTE: Hayate

VOTE: Jon

Everyone, please for the love of the town look at his cases, and look at his interpretation of my words (and how he blatantly continues to ignore what I actually say because if he quoted it, it would refute his own accusations against me, and it would show he's stretching / making things up.) Tell me how the past few posts from Jon are town-motivated? How forcing a mislynch (he said even if we both were town, one of us would have to go) would be town-motivated? How making things up blatantly (Neil just doesn't want to work together) even though in my

LAST POST

directed to him, I stated otherwise, is town-motivated?

Either way, unless someone can show me someone more scum-minded than Jon or Hayate, my vote will stay between them. And as of currently, I'd much rather see a lying / manipulating person like Jon go, even over a lurker like Hayate. I stated earlier, if Jon wanted to at least pretend to be pro-town, I'd be fine with keeping him another day and lynching the other scum Hayate, but the very fact that Jon isn't even trying anymore to be pro-town, shows me he's only going to confuse and break down the town from here on out. Hayate can stay in my book, because at least he's silent. Jon on the other hand is purposefully misleading, misrepping, and trying to get a mislynch. Jon is definitely now in my own opinion, the more dangerous scum here.

[neil1113]

Hopefully this new replacement can clear up some of my suspicions on Hayate. ^^^^

[neil1113]

Vote Count 2.20

Not Voting (2) - Saki

Mod? Saki counts as two votes?

Note to self: Stop posting VC's when distracted. Fixed.

[neil1113]

Besides your blatant show of emotion (most of which is almost certainly faked), you haven't even tried to defend yourself. Instead you mock me, appeal to the fear in everyone "Neil is so wrong and terrible, are you sure you want him to be alive tomorrow?" and mock things I've said about you as if by mocking it, you somehow invalidate it (which is what you've tried to do. You try to invalidate it, without actually defending it because well.. you can't defend yourself. You know every point I've made has been valid, and every thing I've said to you is truth.)

I'm not "debating" the definition of the words "You want to work together, fine." There's nothing to debate there Jon. I said it. YOU are the one who said that I was showing / saying the complete opposite. YOU were the one who continued this debate after in my last post directed to you, I let it go. Hey Jon? That was you.

You're flailing scum, and that's most completely evident. As much as you can't wait for your flip to "show" me something, neither can I.

Titus:

Yes. you're obviously catching on to the things I've been trying to point out this entire game. You're seeing how anti-town Jon has played pretty much the entire time he's tried to argue with me, and how ridiculous his own case is. And then he says I'm the terrible scum hunter lol. Titus, how could you look at Jon's most recent play and tell me he's motivated to help the town in whatever ways possible? Especially the most prune point that shows me that's not his case, is again the fact that I told him let's work together today and even asked him about his own reads, and his only response was "Neil obviously doesnt want to work with me, he has to go. Either him or I." And of course my favorite: "even if we were both townies, one of us HAS to die today." Even if he knew it was a mislynch, he's stating he would push it.

A mislynch.

Come on.

[neil1113]

Wow...really sheep my scumread? Does fuckitol come with antiwinkon?

Ignore him. Seriously it's just going to be a distraction for the rest of the day. According to the vote count, we have a little over 12 hours left to make a decision on who will be the lynch candidate today. My wagon is so terrible, otherwise I would be okay with being the lynch candidate if it brought resolution to anyone.

Loran, MTD, Jon, and Hayate, you guys can decide to do whatever you want. If you want to post your reads, great. However, considering what I posted before, I doubt you guys will be any use to the town. 1 Sheeper, 1 VI, and 2 scum. If we want to make a lynch happen, it'll have to be between myself, Ank, Dopog, Titus, and Saki. That's 5, and that's a lynch. We just need to decide collectively who would be the best lynch decision (unless one of you truly believe I would be, then feel free to hammer me.)

So my question to Ank, Dopog, Titus and Saki, is who are your 3 lynch candidates for today? My votes for the lynch candidates are:

Jon
Hayate
MTD

I think everyone should name 3 candidates in the order you'd like them lynched, and then we can decide where to go from there.

[neil1113]

Ank's is Hayate, MTD, and Jon or Loran?
Titus' is Loran, Hayate, and (Jon?)
Saki is Loran, Hop, and Hayate
Dopog's are MTD and Ank?

Ruling out the votes that would not help us get the majority (Dopog and Ank), that leaves Hayati on 4 suspicion lists, and Jon / Loran / MTD on 3.

With Hayati on 4 lists, Dopog you're the deciding factor. What is your opinion on Hayati? If you're in favor of that lynch, then it appears Hayati would be the only viable lynch (if I understood everyone's reads correctly) that all 5 of us would feel comfortable lynching. What are your opinions?

[neil1113]

I've asked you a question. Also, not posting your 11 pages makes you VI if you are town, fyi.

I'm only responding to your post to inform you, you've wasted enough people's time. VI calling someone else a VI is hillarious. You're not going to waste any of my time, or anyone else's time. Sorry. If you can post something worth responding too, that you know, might even SOMEWHAT look helpful, I'll be glad to respond. Until then, excuse me. The town have a game to win.

[neil1113]

VI calling someone else a VI is hillarious

Pretty much my point. You should post those 11 pages now if you are town, maybe I'll reconsider my vote then. Also your coordinating bullshit isn't helpful at all.

Why would you want even more walls in the thread. Who the fuck is going to read it.

This. You're mistaken if you think 11 pages of reads over roughly around 30 pages of a Mafia game is going to help anybody. Plus most of it is just my own ramblings and points. I've made my cases against the scum that I consider to be scum, and I posted everything I had that was useful information. Posting about my town reads will only be useful for scum knowing who to kill. You're not going to rethink your vote Loran, because your vote is founded on the absence of a case. You have nothing on me, and you have no case. If you had such a powerful case like you assume, that I'm just so "obv scum"... don't you think the rest of the group would have hammered me already? Yet you won't even stop and think for one second, perhaps you are wrong. Perhaps your case is about as mythical as your brain has been during your play here. I don't care if you like me as a player, you haven't helped the town with any of your posts in the past 20 pages now. You've done nothing and accomplished nothing but successfully frustrate and draw in other townies into pointless arguments and debates. I've given you (and others have as well) countless opportunities to play to your win condition (if you're town), and you haven't heeded any of them.

I tried to talk to you like a normal civilized human being. Now I'm done. If you want to contribute, perhaps people will actually conversate with you. I know I would. But for now, you have nothing, you've done nothing, so to me and my view of this game, as a townie, you are nothing.

[neil1113]

pffff someone hammer this scum already. Jeez la wheez

And this my friend, is why you are a VI. You get challenged on not having a case, and instead of presenting one (or trying), you simply state that I am scum and ask for a hammer.

You've just literally confirmed my last post. Thank you.

[neil1113]

@neil: my lynchees:
Neil
Loran
Ank
(in this order)

Well it's nice to know that if we absolutely need a lynch, we could lynch Loran before the deadline. Loran is someone everyone seems to agree is lynch worthy (except well... me. But I'm not the center of the town lol)

By the way, thanks for your participation MTD. Even though I'm at the top, it's nice to know you're not tunneling.

[neil1113]

So Hayate is our lynch choice?

MTD: How do you feel about Hayate? I don't think you gave a read on him recently unless I missed it (which is entirely probable.)

Dopog: Where'd you go? What's your opinion on Hayate?

[neil1113]

I'm being Anti-Town????
Why? Because he says so.
I'm 99.99 certain neil is scum, and this would prove it.

That wasn't my case. I've laid my case out, multiple times, to multiple of your posts. It's insulting to sum it up that way. I hope the Vig shoots you tonight, so that we could win by Day 3. Stop appealing to fear. You can't defend yourself against the actual accusations, so you defend yourself with reverse psychology "omg guys im soo town. fine do it. kill me. you wont. do it. i dare you. come on. do it!"

And you keep over and over and over saying the same things. It's getting old Jon. Meanwhile, while you're over there: "do it do it do it!!! you wont! no balls! come on!" We're over here

ACTUALLY SCUMHUNTING

to try and find the best lynch. You're not playing in favor of the town at all. If you're town, help us. Don't keep on with your little AtF. Nobody is questioning you right now, so quit your little false defense manipulation over there.

[neil1113]

At this point, I'm pretty sure it's going to be me or Hayate for the lynch today. I'm okay with that. Depending on who gets lynched:

When I flip town, watch Jon's reaction.
When Hayate flips scum, watch Jon's reaction.

Either way, Hayate + Jon are in fact the scum team. Regardless of who gets lynched today, that won't change. Watch and see for yourselves. My vote today will stay with Hayate.

[neil1113]

I appreciate you attempting to put time and effort into making an accusation against me Loran. Seriously, I do. Thank you. I am not going to defend anything to you during this day, because I'm not going to go down this road of debating with you and distracting the town for another 2-4 pages. Nothing will come from it except I'll accidentally wind up making you look more scummy, then more people will want to vote you. Except, you're not scum. You just act like it. So that'd be backwards (you getting lynched) for my win condition. Instead, I'll acknowledge your case. If I'm alive during Day 2, I'd love to talk to you about any real accusations you may still have. However for now:

Town, let's vote. The lynch subjects are pretty clear. Hayati or me? Hayati has 4 votes, I technically have 4 (as Loran has admitted to not looking for any other scum. His vote is secured with me. He wants to hammer town, so if it comes to that, let him. As Jon always says, "I can't wait to see his expression." If it comes down to that, I mean.)

[neil1113]

Dopog: I'd strongly recommend you reready our view of Hayate. Basing your decision (main decision) off of playing style (scum wouldn't do this...) is dangerous. Everybody's playing style is different, as town and as scum. Assuming somebody is town because of your assumption of playing style doesn't seem to be the best way to develop your reads...

As for extension, we have 24 hours left. That's our "extension" I believe.

[neil1113]

Sounds good Dopog.

Also, I saw the gambit, that's why I didn't respond or say anything. I was waiting to see if anyone bit. (Bit? Bite? Bited? Grr...)

[neil1113]

So if I somehow get lynched today, and flip town, and you get vigged (and flip town), then the Mafia get their kill and so someone else comes up flipping town.... that's 3 dead townies in one phase. How is it not the smartest play to lynch Hayaki who will flip (scum), and then vig you who according to you should flip opposite (town), and then the Mafia kill off someone (town), so two townies die instead of three? If you believe the first is what's going to go down, wouldn't it be anti-town to place your vote on me?

Just curious.

[neil1113]

EBWOP: ^^^ The above post was directed toward Jon.

[neil1113]

I'm so confused right now... so Day 2 continues until a replacement is found? So if we don't lynch before a replacement takes the game, we're going to no-lynch?

In that case: UNVOTE: Hayate

VOTE: Neil_1113

At least with my flip, we'll get some information. Now you (Jon) and Loran can hammer me so we don't no lynch. I feel like no lynching would be worse than me dying and showing everyone my alignment. I'd rather the town have SOME information then NONE. Even if it's one of their own that died. Please hurry though before a replacement is found. I don't want to go to a no-lynch, that's not going to help the town at all.

[neil1113]

24 hours after replacement is found is deadline.

UNVOTE: Neil_1113

In that case, I'd like my vote where it is. I didn't realize how short the deadline was last time I checked this page. I thought we had another extension. I won't let something like that happen again, I apologize. I took my vote off of me, but didn't put it back on Hayate because I don't want opportunistic scum (whoever that might be, regardless of my reads) to hammer "accidentally"... However you can consider my vote to still be there. I'd like to get as much information as possible from Dopog, and Hayate's replacement before the day ends.

[neil1113]

Actually the more I think about it though, Saki's opinion on hammering Hayate and avoiding the need for a replacement sits well with me. If that's the route we want to take, I'd be okay with that. I do think Hayate is scum, and he is one of my strongest scum reads. The only one stronger is Jon. So for the moment:

VOTE: Hayate

[neil1113]

Mr. Vig, sorry about Loran.
I was wrong.
Please shoot neil instead.

Yes, please do.

[neil1113]

Now we're officially back at 3-3 between me and Hayate, and we're back to waiting for a replacement for him. Thanks Jon. *sigh* It seems like you're more pushing for a no-lynch and splitting the town then you are actually bussing your scum buddy, which makes sense... that's playing to your win condition. You're not going to confuse the town by making weird and false accusations against me. I'll let everyone else view my posts and have them make their own assessment. I do find it funny, the only people you find scum are the people that.. well, disagree with your reads.

[neil1113]

I think neil is skilled scum who needs rope.

Off-topic: WIFOM with me for a second. If I DO flip town, is this post an insult or a compliment to me? Just curious...

[neil1113]

Personally, I'd take it as a compliment if someone called me skilled scum.

I gotta go to sleep or I'd go into more detail. My grandkids wore me out!

Off-Topic again: That's fair. Well then let it be known now, that I'm thankful for that comment.

[neil1113]

ok, so we are all waiting for the replacement now?

OT: I agree that if neil is scum, he hasn't played bad, the same is true for Loran and Ank, though.

I'm not sure, I've kind of hit a stand-still with this game right now. Are we going to wait for whenever we get a replacement? Or should we vote between myself and Hayate now? Or should we lynch Hayate because he's scum to half the town (somewhat) and it'd save us from having to get another replacement, wait for him to read the entire game and post his votes, etc. etc....

[neil1113]

Lucky, there's not much information you can give unless you want to read over the past 46 pages. Lynching you right now would actually be a favor for you, would it not? (At least in my eyes)

You claimed you're a vanilla townie, which means at worst, we lose a lurker powerless townie (Hayate, not you per-say) and at best, we capture scum false-claiming. You kinda have a really bad position, because I feel it'd be hard to ask you to defend Hayate's actions, but at the same time anybody can fake townie for a day or two. It's the process, going through the entire Day Phase with someone, giving them a chance to show their true motivation, that would help the town find the scum. Not giving them 24 hours to act as townie as possible.

I can't help but think your claim is fake. But I also can't challenge you on anything right now, because you just replaced in... I'm caught between a rock and a hard place.

[neil1113]

Another attempt to get rid of someone who wasn't talking.

I'm sorry, who else did I try to get rid of that was inactive? I didn't realize inactive people helped the town by being inactive, so it must be scummy to want to get rid of them. (P.S. You conveniently left out, that you two were my scum-reads. So out of those, I'd rather lynch the lurking / inactive scum comparatively to the one who's at least talking. I'd rather have an interesting game, then a cheap one.)

It is

another

attempt to bandwagon another person who wasn't really playing.

Again, where was my first attempt, and to who? The only two people I've really wanted to lynch, besides MTD, were you two. And I've stated that since I've replaced in.

UNVOTE:

I'm okay with giving him as much time as he needs to give us info. I didn't realize how bad it sounded to just want to lynch him, I guess my frustration with this game being as slow running as it is right now has gotten to me and I just want the day to end. Sorry.

[neil1113]

Mod, I'll take the extra time please.

I'm halfway through my read.

Deadline extended, I edited the vote count to reflect this.

Do you mind if I ask (due to my own curiosity), what are you current reads halfway through?

[neil1113]

FYI: Based on the vote count, we have about 8 hours until we reach deadline. I'm going to the beach in a few hours with my Fiancee', not sure if I'll be back in time of the deadline. I need someone to be online now, so as the town for the most part we can decide what we need to do. I don't want my vote to go to waste...

[neil1113]

FYI: Based on the vote count, we have about 8 hours until we reach deadline. I'm going to the beach in a few hours with my Fiancee', not sure if I'll be back in time of the deadline. I need someone to be online now, so as the town for the most part we can decide what we need to do. I don't want my vote to go to waste...

Ignore me, I just realized the vote count is a live-time counter. Not a countdown post from when the Mod originally posted. Sorry.

[neil1113]

Jon, you fail to see how town-motivation can come from putting a vote or wanting to lynch a guy that you perceive is scum?

(Like it or not, that's exactly what you just stated.)

[neil1113]

That was a hard read through with the amount of player changes. My own slot I feel just had a

rash of players too lazy to play a vanilla townie.

Sorry neil, I missed your request for halfway through reads before I moved on. Let me gather my thoughts together and I'll have my reads and notes laid out for you.

Hmm.. I read into your slot differently than that. I'm interested and looking forward to your reads and notes.

[neil1113]

That was a hard read through with the amount of player changes. My own slot I feel just had a

rash of players too lazy to play a vanilla townie.

Sorry neil, I missed your request for halfway through reads before I moved on. Let me gather my thoughts together and I'll have my reads and notes laid out for you.

Hmm.. I read into your slot differently than that. I'm interested and looking forward to your reads and notes.

^scummy

Sigh, you don't even bother to try anymore do you?

[neil1113]

Since we have enough time to talk about it, Neil vs. Hayate does not have to be the lynch subjects for today. Everyone seems to agree with a Loran / MTD lynch as well.

The people from what I have seen that aren't getting lynched:
Titus
Saki
Dopog
Jon

These are the people that are up for lynches (from reads):
Loran
Neil
Hayate
MTD
Ankamius

[neil1113]

@ lucky That's OK. I don't really have to worry about making scum slips, I need to expose scum. Everything I've done all game is try to expose scum. So it's impossible to prove I'm scum. It makes it where I can be more aggressive. At any time anyone thinks I'm not looking for scum their vote better be on me.

As for the vig thing, that's up to him and I fully expect to be vigged if neil's Town.

tl:dr If you ever think I'm scum vote me.

You won't be vigged because I am the town. There's my claim.

Go ahead and hammer me if you wish, I'm dead tonight anyway.

[neil1113]

Wow. I wasn't claiming vig. I was claiming town. I'm a

Vanilla Townie

.

And I'm okay with lynching Loran. UNVOTE:

VOTE: Loran

[neil1113]

You really didn't get my soft-claim? Sigh... I was claiming Vig. I just didn't want scum to get a heads up and when I realized how obvious I made it, I had to retrace my steps. Now that you keep talking about it, I felt forced to out myself. Thanks a lot.

Even if scum try to kill me tonight, at least I'll get a kill off, I think. I'm thinking either targeting Jon, MTD, or Ank tonight... Whoever would give us the most information for tomorrow if I die as well.

[neil1113]

My fake vig claim was to avoid the scum hunting down the vig at night and targeting me instead so the Vig had extra time to kill. I figured scum had a much better shot (0%) at killing me looking for the vig, then they do searching among everyone that was alive.

Saki, you played well. I honestly had my suspicions of you being the vig by the way you played, and I called it out once "I know what you're doing.." but when you aggressively responded to that statement, I didn't want to further that point and throw suspicion onto you from anyone else. I was trying to let you know that I knew what I was doing, because I was already preparing for the fake claim. I was trying to hint to you that I knew you were the vig, so when I claimed it, you wouldn't be like "OMG LYING SCUM!" but rather realize what I was doing, and use the opportunity to try and take out scum.

[neil1113]

So is that a yes or a no to the scum QT? Lol