Open 544: Tit for Tat (Game Over)

[jon_h61]

I'm falling asleep as I'm reading the thread from the start, for the first time. At this early juncture I'm not liking Flames or Celebloki. I realize neither is in the game anymore (and therefore only partially responsible for reads on their slots), and I'm still in Day 1 so reads are likely to change before I'm caught up. This is just the way things stand now as I go to take a nap so I can look at the thread with a clearer mind.

I hope to be caught up with the thread completely by tonight. I'll post reads, thoughts, accusations, and a vote then.

Oh yeah, hi everyone.

[jon_h61]

I'm going straight down the list of alive players on page 1.

Ank - This slot is my strongest scum read, I didn't like Cele either.
Titus - Town, I liked NSU as Town too.
MTD - Town, his reads read sincere even when he was wrong.
saki - I don't know, I don't like how this slot doesn't produce anything useful but someone said this is normal for them.
Loranthaceae - What can I shorten your name to? I've been Town reading this slot almost all game, but something's been niggling the back of my brain these last few read trough's. Gonna leave it at Town though.
tne - I can almost give this slot a scum read. Especially if I read the way tne went after Flames right. It seemed almost like gleefully attacking someone who'd given them a Town read and knew that they could use it effectively against them.
Tlachta C - I was Town reading this slot most of the game, but 623 puts me off. It could be a slip of the tongue, metaphorically speaking. I'm going to reread her carefully.
Hopkirk - My first read screams scum, but we can only have so many scums, so, a careful reread here too

I had a looong post written up, went to preview it, and the interwebs gods musta taken it as a sacrifice.
I gotta deal with Meat World issues for awhile. I'll be back on later today.

[jon_h61]

So you're going to falter on a scumread on Hopkirk because you have a single scumread and a single almost-scum read? I'm calling bullshit.

I'm not going to falter on it, I'm going to pay extra attention to it. That's why I said "reread carefully".

[jon_h61]

And I'd put saki, Loran, and Tlachta as "almost-scum reads" too, so your accusing me of not being suspicious enough have no merit.

[jon_h61]

No, I'm looking for scum. And looking for evidence to convince other Town players I'm probably right. What's your method for getting someone lynched?

[jon_h61]

But I like your bullsh*t. Grow mushrooms much?

[jon_h61]

Alright, I read up to page 7 and made notes. I'll go fully into detail when I'm done reading, but here's my general reads so far:

Scum: Flames of Disaster, Captain Picard, thenewearth
Null-Scum: Tlachta C, MTD
Null-Town: Malakittens, Saki, Ibarra
Town: No Stone Unturned, Lorantheceae, Hopkirk

You have a good record of calling Town scum, so I don't think I'm going to give your posts much credence.

[jon_h61]

Your voting me is staying consistent (with calling Town scum).

[jon_h61]

@ Ank P744 huh???

[jon_h61]

OK I'll take a look at how you say things played out, and I'll get back to you. I want to see the transition from Cele to you .

List your scum reads you presently have.

[jon_h61]

Also, I'm a fan of not revealing everything I have right away. There's another point on Tlachta C I noted in my head but didn't put into words. I feel better about my reads when I get pressured about things I say. That's one reason I'm vague with a lot of my points. If you want a hint of what this point is, it's in this post.

When you get pressures, you get your scum reads. Whoever looks at you is scum. I'm still reading your ISO but just wanted to point this out now. I still think you could be scum.

[jon_h61]

Sorry to see you go. I had the same problem a couple of months ago.

[jon_h61]

I'll give you the benefit of a doubt now, more for things I read in Cele's ISO. What was your read on my predecessor? Can you elaborate on your other scum reads?

[jon_h61]

Loran does come up with grand predictions over speculations about what little things meant. May be vote worthy,

@ Loren What is your take on the current game state?

[jon_h61]

Not since my first few games have I really supported LL's, just for lurking. But I think I could get behind a Saki lynch (who doesn't have any votes ATM).

@ Saki Are there any good reasons why you shouldn't be lynched? Beside being low hanging fruit that is?

pedit

[quote="In post 763 Do you think having two hardcore lurkers in the scumteam is a good idea?

This is a question I was thinking about as I wrote my post.

[jon_h61]

Saki is most probably town and the idea of him scoring a free win on account of me doing the work disgusts me very much.

He very well could be. I'd like to here it from him though.

[jon_h61]

And to answer your question I do have town reads. I have town reads on Ibarra, Picard, MTD. Null on Lincolm, NSU. I have scum reads on Tla, Lorantha. Undecided on Flames, could be scummy, is new, hard to tell.

I think it's safe to say you are today's ideal lynch then. You decided not to go with putting Flames who you strongly suspect of being scum to L-1 despite 3 of your townreads being on that wagon. You went with Tla instead which which only Flames is on and isn't really happening. You are stalling the development of important information and your actions don't make sense as town.

This is town posting^

Ank, I know this is before your time, but do you have any thoughts on these statements? Do you think it's an accurate description of the way things went down?

[jon_h61]

He's been dropping town vibes all over the place and no one has given a compelling case for him being scum whatsoever. I'm still mystified that people are seeing him as one of their primary scum reads.

I wouldn't call that alignment indicative at all, whereas Cele had Flames as a scumspect and decided not to put him at L-1 because he said he doesn't want a quicklynch.

You haven't done anything to discount those points and instead opted to just blanket them in "bad full of this reeks comments", which I used... a grand total of three times in my catch-up post. You know what I would have expected town to do here? Push those points to see what grounds they were based in. Your meta argument is crap as you have given no concrete evidence whatsoever and the assumption you're making with it is just bad.

Your entire case on me is either stretched hideously far or just pulled out of your ass. You want to know why Zekram is going to flip scum? Because there are two people who are desperate to make sure he's not lynched. These two people are someone who's last documented read on Flames is a scumread (Loran) and someone who was supporting a vote on Flames for a long time (Tlachta C). It's curious how things changed as deadline got close.

Would you please just die. Thank you.

I just want to be clear, is this what you are saying happened? Feedback from either party is welcome. Oh yeah, in 770

[jon_h61]

@ Ank The numbered posts are from your 770, I'm trying to discern what you meant from each post. I'm trying to figure out what you were wanting us to see from each of your

here

points. If I can weed through the posts to the points, I hope to decide on who most deserves my vote. I'm not necessarily looking for who's the most right, I'm looking for who's scummiest.

@ Loren What makes you so sure Saki's Town. He hasn't scumhunted at all.

@ Saki Who are your top two scum reads?

[jon_h61]

OK the first post I thought you were saying that about Flames. Not Hopkirk.

The second, here Loran mainly focuses on your interactions with Flame, which may explain why I thought you were talking about Flame in the first post.

The third here is you talking about Loran discounting all your reads on Flames and Picard with "this reeks" comments.

The fourth here is Loran asking you to just die.

That was the only time you showed that you read any of my responses.

Is this referring to the just go ahead and die statement?

[jon_h61]

Do you still give Hopkirk a Town read? Why or why not?

[jon_h61]

@Loren From the tone of your post I'm going to assume (is that safe) that we agree that we both believe Titus is Town.

@ Ank What's your read on Titus?

@ Titus, I'm really interested In who you think are your top two Town reads are, and who'd be your second most choice for a lynch?

My first is still up for grabs, but my second choice is a lurker. Like maybe Saki?

[jon_h61]

Welcome to our replacements!

Neil, I hope you are bringing your A game. I read two of your games just to get an idea of you. the first you nailed both scum right off the bat and never let off the pressure til you had the win. The second game, not so much. Your side lost. I'm really hoping you help me firm up my read on the slot.

Hayate has a harder row to hoe. I'm more unsettled with this slot and haven't meta-dived you. But glancing at your join date I doubt I'd find much. I'm still very interested in your take on things.

Unless something unforeseen happens I'm going with Titus and MTD as solid Town. I'm not caring much for Loran's play which strikes me as very similar to a scum game of theirs that I was perusing last night. I'm hoping that Ank and I don't make it to LYLO together because I'm very undecided on this slot. Is anyone beside Loran willing to call Saki Town? Looking at his ISO, I don't think he can be more ambiguous if he tried. If Hopkirk is Town, I'd like to see a little more effort in helping us sort out scum.

The questions I asked Titus, your top two Town reads, and your second most scum read (along with your top scum read too if you haven't recently made it clear) would be appreciated from any(every)one willing to give them

[jon_h61]

@ Titus I use meta as a piece to the puzzle, I'd never rely on it over things happening in the game I'm playing. It helps me get an idea of what I may expect of the player in question. If they are too far off their normal meta, then I'll pay more attention to what they are trying to accomplish in-game.

If you look at Open 1329 you'll see a lot of similarities with Loran's play here, but I had strong suspicions on the slot

before

I started reading the game.

pedit @ MTD I agree I'm finding Saki and Hopkirk scummier than tne.

I'm going to put money where my mouth is and
VOTE: Loran.

[jon_h61]

@ Neil Are you seriously going to call 742 a soft claim?

I also think my actions prove that I listen to everything Ank says, I go back and check multiple times to see if what he is saying adds up or not. I did say that in our back and forth, when I was leaning heavily toward him being scum. Are you going to say he said something so scary to scum me that I just had to let up on him before I was found out? If so, could you give us an inkling of what it was?

Beside my expressing a desire to maybe compromise vote on your slot, can you maybe explain your not liking me? Maybe it's just me that you don't like, and has nothing to do with my alignment.

[jon_h61]

^That bottom part is to Saki.

[jon_h61]

@ Loran who would you recommend (up to two) that I ISO alongside you that'd most prove your Town this game. Until further notice my vote isn't moving before deadline.

[jon_h61]

I'm obviously going to reexamine Neil's slot because I know at least one of his reads to be wrong. Oops soft claimed again.

pedit yes it did Loran.

[jon_h61]

I just read your perfect scum win, Loran. Remember me just mentioning that earlier.

[jon_h61]

I'll read them tonight, I check in occasionally as I read.

[jon_h61]

Jon: Let me just say first: You did not say you were town. Thus you did not claim. You did however imply it, with your word selection. Therefore you, through implication, claimed. That is, by definition, a soft claim. If you want to argue with me about definitions, don't waste your breath. It won't get either of us anywhere. Also... If I'm truly wrong about you, I apologize. But I don't think so. Your spot has given me scummy red flags the entire game as I read, and my eyes are locked on you. Going after Loran because he acted scummy with his sarcasm is the easiest lynch. I get that. But the easiest is not always the right one. If I'm wrong about you, which I strongly doubt, then Hayate should be our lynch candidate for today. If Hayate does not flip scum, I'll lynch myself. But if Hayate does, then you'll be my next target. (Considering I don't die tonight.)

Maybe I'll try again, I'm Town. I own it. I'll go down scum hunting till I'm gone. I'll probably be cussing the screen after I'm dead. You can tunnel me to the last post and I'll still be Town. I guess I'll just have to live with the annoyance of somebody, again tunneling me. Last time he was Town, and I never stopped him. We (Town) still won anyway. Besides, if you're scum, you'll eventually trip yourself up.

neil's post is town as hell too; the analysis is strong, I don't think scum would interject into this fight between Titus and Loran and call them both town; it'd be better for scum to fan the flames and let them obliterate each other. If either is a scumbuddy, I may reconsider this read, but I doubt it. The attempting to shut down the vig talk is pro-town as hell too.

I hope you're right that Neil's Town, except for a couple of things (by Tlachla) I was Town reading this slot. But if you don't think those were viable scum strategies you mentioned, then you need to play more Mafia.

[jon_h61]

This actually pissed me off. Do you know how long it took to do that ISO of just TWO players? Over 2 hours. I worked for over 2 hours, just focussed on analyzing Arka and hopkirk. Given the activity of the rest of the player list, I won't be surprised if doing my nullreads alone took just as long, let alone my townreads. I gave my reads and then a detailed explanation of my reads through going through both player's entire ISO and commenting on their posts. How in GOD'S NAME am I lurking?

I can understand this kind of mindset, and it sounds very Town to me. I work hard with ISO, double and triple ISO's, follow links in posts to check out relevance and I hate it when the work is dismissed. Though I realize this isn't the exact same thing. The tone and frustration sounds very Town.

[jon_h61]

And yes, I'm aware #856 is probably sarcasm. It looks like scum sarcasm.

At least you caught the tone. Neil's push is asinine, of course I was saying I was Town. I can't say anything about what my former player did in my slot, and to tell you the truth, I've barely read his posts. They are so far back in the game I'm not going to give them much credence, and I'm not scumhunting him. I'm still trying to figure you out.

Neil's accusing me of comtemplating OMGUS on him is b*llsh#t!!! It makes me think he can't find anything else to accuse me of, so he's manufacturing something. Uh Neil, I'm still trying to figure out if you're misguided or scum.

I'll read through the reast of the new posts and see if I need to comment on anything else

Oh yeah, I'm still reading through those games Loran. My wife demanded some ME time last night and if you don't give them (women) certain things they ask for, well then ...

[jon_h61]

After 3 hours and 41 minutes, I'm done with my read through. I won't post all my reads, or lay out all the things I've made notes on considering well... 11 pages in Microsoft Office would probably be a dread to read right now. So I'm going to be as concise as possible, while still laying out what I've found:

Going back through your posts in ISO. This caught my eye right off the bat. Thanks to Loran for mentioning it too (I know , I just said thank you to the person I'm voting)., that probably helped me to consider it more. So you joined the game, read it, and analyzed it and wrote 11 pages of Office pages in just under four hours. Yeah, with crap lines like this I'm leaning more heavily toward scum on you. Yes, I know OMGUS, and sarcastic OMGUS at that!

Saki: Please, I think you're town. So I'm begging you, be active. I've ISO'd you several times, and had to reread through your posts multiple times. You have the ability to be great at this, you seem to be quite smart. I'm asking you, I don't care if you make a case against me if you wish, but please... be active. Don't kill this game with your inactiveness.

From what I've read of Saki, this is usual Saki. So This looks like posturing, and not a real request. If Saki's posting would kill the game, it would have been dead page one.

Titus: Stop talking about the vig. Period. I believe you're town, so act like it. If you want to discuss the logics of talking about the vig and how it benefits / does not benefit the town, we can do so without causing accusations. I will not say if I am the vig or not for two reasons. 1. If I am the vig, the scum wouldn't know. So if they target me at night, they have a 35% chance of getting it correctly, which seems really low to waste a kill on. 2. If I am not the vig, and the scum target me at night, at least the town still has their vig left. Let's be smart with what little weapons we have left.

This (to me) sounds like scum who has just latched onto a point to buddy Town. You never say anything pertinent to help us (Town) understand why you have a Town read here. And there is no scum hunting going on, while you state the obvious.

Loran, I don't like you. I think it's your playing style, or your hypocrisy... it clashes a lot. But unfortunately, you're not one of my two scum reads. I can't wait to play in a game when you are though, I'd love to bury you and be the one responsible for your death. In (819) you talk about vig talk being anti-town, then in (820) you do the very thing you just said was anti-town. Since I don't think your scum, I have to consider you must just be stupid town. Work on that.

More buddying with a subtle? threat. I hope I'm not wrong in my read of you, because I'm finding you

very

scummy.

-- Jon:Ankamius makes a point that your mindset isn't making much sense, you're only response is to call it BS (738) so, rightfully so, Ank places a vote on you. You're response? (741) "You had bad calls reading up to page 7, so therefore the rest of your calls are invalid the rest of the game." - paraphrased. Then in (742) you soft-claim.

I skipped the stuff you commented on about my predecessor, I want to look over your references before I comment. I've already commented here once, but I want to reiterate, I consider every post from Ank, I consider every post form everyone. I consider the validity, try to figure out the motivation, and the mindset. You are basing one comment from a back and forth that was happening in as close to real time as you can get on Mafiascum. My comments after (and actions,

I

think) prove this is untrue.

I'm seriously considering switching my vote over to you.

To anyone else, ie my Town reads, Can you give me an argument as to why I shouldn't switch my vote?

[jon_h61]

You do realize you're wasting your breath going back and forth with town? Honestly when I posted, I didn't have much on Jon (still don't from my reads) as he's pretty good at saying a lot of words and having little to no point. It wasn't Jon I was suspicious of, it was his predecessors. The idea of Jon wanting to OMGUS me, on Day 2 when we need a good lynch to set the town ahead, shows me his interest is not in the desire of the town. It should show anybody this.

You know the old saw "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullsh*t.

I'm obviously going to reexamine Neil's slot because I know at least one of his reads to be wrong. Oops soft claimed again.

pedit yes it did Loran.

This is the post he accuses me of threatening OMGUS. Is this supposed to scare me away from voting you? When you become my number one scum read, I'm going to vote you and NO amount of threatening and lines of "oh noes, that's a scum tell is going to stop me. Just letting you know.

[jon_h61]

Loran: I get it. It's your playing style. But for the sake of the betterment of the town, be fruitful with your posts. Say things that matter. Don't just fluff around. Acting scummy is great, when you're scum or individual. Not when you're town. Making other people doubt your alignment, will not help anyones case.

If I thought that you had a chance of being scum, I'd think you were trying to discredit Town, so others would give them less credence. But then I'd have to be considering that my top scum read was Town. Maybe I'm scum playing head games with myself. (Sarcasm doesn't become me, I'll take a step back and take a big breath,)

[jon_h61]

@ Loran who would you recommend (up to two) that I ISO alongside you that'd most prove your Town this game. Until further notice my vote isn't moving before deadline.

Out of everything else in the past three pages, I don't have a whole lot else to say other than Jon's posts in page 35 make him look even worse in my eyes. #853 and #856 don't look like townposting.

And yes, I'm aware #856 is probably sarcasm. It looks like scum sarcasm.

Is your accusation here that I was only asking for appearance's sake? Just wanting to make sure we're on the same page.

I guess scum could take the risk, but what if a smart Townie used the info I'm asking for to firm up their reads? What is the gain that I as scum was going for? To appear busy looking for scum? I

am

voting Loran presently. The funny thing about your post is it sounds like you may be trying to link me and Loran as a scum team. Is that the case?

I'll stop post spamming and wait for others to post before I continue.

[jon_h61]

Maybe not straight forward, Oh My God You're Scum! You didn't come right out and say it and vote for me. I admit. However, you casted suspicion on me, and you started doubting my spot's alignment, as soon as I called you out. OMGUS does not mean specifically you voted for me because I voted for you. There's the motive behind it, that OMGUS exposes. The, "you are suspicious of me now I'm going to in turn try and make you seem suspicious to others" motive. That's not townie behavior, that's scum behavior. That's running around, "crap he is on to me, I need to invalidate his posts and make HIM look like the suspicious one"... not "great, he is wrong. Let me clear up his reads, so we can look around together to find who the scum are." One comes from the basis of a foundational "bad guy" mindset, while the other comes from the "firming up that town read" of yours mindset, where town works with town.

You sound like a fundamentalist who will never ever, ever, consider that they might be wrong. That makes that situation I alluded to even more pertinent. If you are Town we might be in trouble if you start taking a leadership role. shudder

[jon_h61]

@ neil Why are you killing the links in your posts? It just makes it harder to respond to them, not impossible.

[jon_h61]

@ neil We seem to agree on Town slots, so... Do you agree Titus and MTD are Town? If so, I'd say we have the beginning of a good Town bloc. Loran is looking Townier than you (is that even a word?). The jury's still out on Ank, but he puts thought into his responses, and I'll give him extra credit for that. I'm getting the feeling that Saki and Hopkirk are going to be useless in scum hunting and it makes me wonder why they play if they don't want to help Town. If they're Town.

Question to Saki and Hop - Do you feel you are playing to your win condition?

@ Loran - still reading, damn Meat World!

[jon_h61]

@ MTD I had a Town read on neil's slot, but his play hasn't sounded Town or sincere since he started posting. I wa looking over his posts before I checked back here, (uh, and reading that other Tit For Tat game you were in Loran) and every time I look at his posts I want to rage so I'm going to say neil is quickly heading to the top of the list. Loran is the most important (to me) slot to get a good read on ATM. Right now I'm starting to lean Town actually. Ank would be my next in importance to sort out. Hay is still kinda null, but more posts from him will be helpful, I hope. I don't even know what to do with Saki and Hop, just let 'em hang around and hope they aren't scum, maybe???

This probably isn't much help, but neil as number one and a lurker as a compromise vote? A quick note - even in the game where neil won, he was cautioned by more experienced players that his play that game was dangerous and could have potentially destroyed Town.

Neil

, this does have to do with the game state here, and isn't just an AtF. I'm trying to help Town get an idea of your play style to help them get a better read on your slot. Neil's play this game is nonsensical and appears he is making things up on the fly.

@ neil the game was Newbie 1382, and the tunneler was Kattaze. That won't matter because you'll refuse to even consider you're wrong. That isn't even exactly good scum play, but to each their own.

[jon_h61]

I will be looking that game up actually, I tried to find it earlier but failed. I didn't think about a Newbie game. And like I've said before, when I gave an open appeal to the rest of the crowd about what their view would be on you, (which ironically nobody responded to), I'm more than open to being wrong. I told everyone I might have missed something obvious, so I'd love to hear their views. That's called being OPEN Jon, you know... being available to hear. That actually proves that here, you completely lied and misrepresented me. Great job proving you're town so far... lying / mis-repping is a great town-tell.

I haven't read this yet, but I will. You can't use this post to

prove

how OPEN you are. No matter how many arguments you think you can win, I'm still Town, scum hunting. I'll commit all kinds of Logical Fallacies and what someone may say are scum tells along the way. I've heard a lot of ridicules things along the way too (meaning since I've started playing Mafia) But I'm going to keep doing my best to find the liars (ie sum).

Look at the time where I told Yosarian he's won the argument, right before I hung 'em for the win while you're looking up games. I'm not afraid to lose an argument, as long as I can find scum.

I'm

not

saying this is what's happening, but you seem to use meta too. And I think it's a good read too.

[jon_h61]

you completely lied and misrepresented me

OK, I'm sorry people I completely lied and said neil is tunneling me. He hasn't said I'm scum since he got here.

[jon_h61]

The bold is one of the main reasons I doubt my town-read on you. 1. You have no reason to question my alignment to the town. 2. A compromise lynch isn't going to help the town. You don't need to compromise anything. 3. A lynch that you truly think you'd get the most information from, is NOT A COMPROMISE LYNCH. Lynching the person you find "equally scummy to the most scummy person" which is in fact, what you said, as well as "will give you the most information" is called the GREATEST lynch. You can't GET a better lynch than that. The fact that you keep calling it a compromise, makes me consider you lying. You're either lying about your reasons to vote for me, or you're lying about me being equally scummy and thinking you'll get the most info. You might know, you'll get no info, which is why you would lie. But the only way you can know that, is if in fact you are scum. Also, calling it a compromise makes you have a "get-out-of-jail-free" card when I flip and I'm town. Oh it's not your fault... it was a "compromise."

If only MTD were lynching you this would be true, but we need five votes to lynch. That is why it's a compromise vote, and trying to use it as a scum tell is well, scummy.

[jon_h61]

tl:dr My replies to neil I promise I will never subject Town to a wall like this again. I wouldn't dare presume to tell anyone to read it, but if you want to, go ahead.

I asked him not to kill the game with his inactiveness... saying that killing the game could be a potential result of being inactive. Are you arguing that point? I didn't say Saki you killed the game... I said don't kill it. It was warning him of a futuristic potential response, not regarding a past event. You're point here is invalid and moot, unless you are wanting to debate that inactiveness kills Mafia games, in which case I have severely overestimated your intelligence in playing Mafia.

This really doesn't have anything to do with scum hunting, but I want to make it clearer. You asked Saki to be more active so as not to kill the game. I said if it the game relied on his activeness it would have died an early death. But I most definitely agree, I would love to see a more active Saki.

I didn't layout all of my town reads and scum reads originally on purpose. I don't want people knowing who I think is null and who I think are town, because I've played scum before and I know how to manipulate people's reads. I don't want someone doing that to me.

This is an age old debate here on Mafiascum. Whether to claim your Town reads or not. How much info it gives scum, whether it helps scum to decide on NK's, etc. I'll accept this as your position, but my point was that it sounded like posturing to me. Here is where the conundrum lies. Neither of us can prove our points without a flip. You keep saying I can't prove anything, and your right. That's why I keep bringing my observations to the table, hoping I'm more right than wrong. Someone's lying, trying to misdirect Town, by either staying out of all arguments and letting Town rip itself apart, or maybe by seeding doubt from the inside. I won't let my guard down until the last flip. I'm a big enough man to be able to change my reads and not to hang on to scum reads after doubts tell me I'm probably wrong. This post so far sounds more reasonable than your earlier posts, my problem lies with discerning the reason.

Buddying is solely dependent on the way you look at things.

If I wanted to "buddy" him, I wouldn't have told him I didn't like him. Nor would I have called him out on being hypocritical. Believe it or not, I know how to make friends. I would hope you would too. To view this as buddying is a huge stretch, considering I exposed him for being stupid town... which I still believe he is.

I agree wholeheartedly with the bolded, but then again the same could be said of scum tells. My meaning of buddying here wasn't in that you were trying to win over a new friend, more in a "Hey, I'm Town too" way. It was an observation of the way it

might

be playing out.

Was my statement untrue at the time in which I said it? Did you not tell Ank in a paraphrased manner what I said you did? Did Ank not make a point that you called BS? You're not addressing the argument I stated, you're simply trying to say... "you were in the moment?" Did I get your implication correctly? Yes you were arguing, that doesn't to me invalidate my point, but it could in turn actually prove it in my eyes. I'm really not entirely sure what you were getting at here... if I'm wrong, tell me.

Please tell me you aren't asking me to answer all these leading questions. What I said in 741 was "You have a good record of calling Town scum, so I don't think I'm going to give your posts much credence." In your post disparaging me, you said I said "You had bad calls reading up to page 7, so therefore the rest of your calls are invalid the rest of the game." Somewhat the same in meaning, but not exactly. My remark was aimed at all of Ank's play, not just his play up to page seven. He's been calling everyone who we know is Town scum, all the way to the time of their flips. That was why I'm not putting a lot of trust on his reads, even if he's Town. And he's calling me scum, so I know he's wrong
again.

To anyone else, ie my Town reads, Can you give me an argument as to why I shouldn't switch my vote?

You're appealing to the masses to prove my innocence? You've yet to make any case on me, and you've claimed for 33 pages you had a town read, and then in 4 you've changed your mind completely and really, your only response when you first did it was indeed OMGUS. Which I already explained how in the posts before this. You're trying to rally the town, but you sir are in no way a leader. Stop trying to play politics. If you want to make a case, make an ACTUAL case. Have SOME sort of evidence to support your accusations. Show what I said / did to be scummy, not just "how it made you feel..."

I'm sure you know that scum's job is to appear Towny right? How do they do this? By acting in a way that they would imagine Town would act. That's why scum tells are so bad at catching scum. You catch way more scum looking at the motivations behind the post than what the post is actually says. That said, being accused of OMGUS hasn't ever scared me away from OMGUSing, well maybe when I was brand new. I liked the line appealing to the masses, is that a Logical Fallacy?

It's funny, but I get the feeling you'd deny you being scum, even if we quoted your role PM jk

Again, just like you did with Ank, you can't disprove a point so you call BS... that's not a defense Jon. That's called losing an argument. You know I'm right, and that's why you shut your mouth.

And this is called an opinion, prove it's not.

You do realize you're wasting your breath going back and forth with town? Honestly when I posted, I didn't have much on Jon (still don't from my reads) as he's pretty good at saying a lot of words and having little to no point. It wasn't Jon I was suspicious of, it was his predecessors. The idea of Jon wanting to OMGUS me, on Day 2 when we need a good lynch to set the town ahead, shows me his interest is not in the desire of the town. It should show anybody this.

How does me OMGUSing show my interests isn't the desire of Town? If you're a scum read of mine not OMGUSing you (which if I'm not misunderstanding you is anything which questions your Townieness) would be antiTown. You said earlier that it was my saying I needed to reexamine your slot that was the OMGUS, right?

Threatening? When did I threaten you? When did I try and scare you away? I didn't threaten that you were doing OMGUS, I PROVED IT. I exposed your motives, and that's why you had nothing to say to it. Even here, again, you make no case for your motivation behind why I accused you of it, but instead went off on your own little sarcastic expression of opinion. You didn't defend yourself, because like before, again... you couldn't.

Now that I am up on OMGUS being anything that questions your Townieness, you win this one. Yes you proved that I said I was going to reexamine your slot (OMGUS you). As to exposing my motives, well my flip will expose those. If you'd actually exposed my motives (and you're Town) you'd be scum hunting elsewhere.

Again, you're fluff posts don't fool anyone. Except maybe STD, which I will get to him in a minute. You make accusations like "I'd think you were trying to discredit town" without actually showing how my post would have discredited anybody? Because I told him he's acting scummy? That doesn't discredit what he says, it just puts him into perspective. For myself and anyone else who reads it.

I'm lost on this one, if you feel it's important, would you please rephrase it.

Is that an ongoing game? If so, holy crap I'm sorry. I read through his posts, I didn't even stop to think if the game was over. I didn't read through to the end.

Seriously, be careful, people get banned for it all the time. I wouldn't mind playing with you again sometime. At least you play, hint hint, nudge nugde, lurkers.

I'll gladly consider I'm wrong. I am considering that I could be wrong, which is the only reason I'm still responding to you. I'm giving you a chance to defend yourself, and instead you're only furthering my view of you and solidifying it in my mind.

This statement will be more bothersome if/when I get a Town read on you.

If you'll take a look at your post 897, you'll notice that all the usual links to posts within your quote are black instead of blue. They won't take you to the posts. Also a lost of your quotes don't even let you know where they are from. If you're still unsure of my meaning I can explain it better, but I hope you get the idea.

As to your next point, I'll try. You have to remember, no matter how much you feel you're a scum hunting god, they are still your opinions. The proof is in the flip. The I want to rage comment is what you make me want to do. I want to type opposing points to your posts every time I read them. You say things like they are fact, while yelling prove it in the next breath. I don't mean rage, as in going on a mass murder spree.

I'm going to let your summary go, unless you're going to say that proves I'm scum too. Honestly, it's late, I'm tired and tired of typing. Please if you want to have a 1v1 discussion, let's do it in real time, name a time and I'll see about making it.

[jon_h61]

I'm going to finish reading that Tit for Tat game Loran is in and then come back and go over every single player in the game. I am going to try very hard to have very few nulls so if in the future everyone will know with no doubts or ambiguities exactly where I stand. In the event of a future death, hopefully it'll make interactions with the other player slots better to get reads by.

I'll be busy at times today, but I'll be checking by pretty regularly.

Off topic - I purposely didn't check to see who was scum when I started reading knowing only your brief description of the game. It's kinda fun, I knowing Town wins, but not knowing who gets it in the end. < To Loran

[jon_h61]

A neil I'll get to your posts later today. Hell, right now I'd love to be the compromise lynch, just to show how full of it you are. But that's going against my win condition, so you'll just have to figure out how to do it the old fashioned way.

@ Saki I've spoken to you several times to no avail, getting help from you is a lost cause.

@ Loran I had to fix some busted pipes for a friend last night and didn't get to finish that game yet. neil reminds me of Uber on a bad day.

[jon_h61]

Apologies Saki, I think neil's scum who just knows how to push my buttons. He hypocritically uses things as tells that he does himself frequently. Argues the definition of words like his definition is Supreme Court law. Who cares? You haven't brought us any closer to catching scum. He. uses inflammatory language just to try to get rises out of people, twist the meaning of posts to mean something way different from what the original text is saying. I really, really hope, for our sake, you're scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: neil

@ Titus, Some of Loran's conclusions from small details was what originally got him my vote, who knows, if he wasn't taking exams and was posting more maybe I wouldn't be changing my mind. Right now, neil is looking way scummier to me.

[jon_h61]

If I'm wrong on Ank I'll never play forum mafia ever again. If I'm wrong on Tla/neil then I'll take a brake of about 2 years or so, go to a spiritual place and live simple and come back with a sorted out mind.

Almost made me snort coffee!

[jon_h61]

@ kingdomAces I changed my vote to neil on the last page.

I don't know how I missed that. Fixed.

[jon_h61]

That's L-1

[jon_h61]

Plus, too many people are trying to half-heartedly push him. It feel.s like they're trying to set-up an easy mislynch in LyLo.

I'm not trying to make to LYLO, I want to catch scum. Ank, I suggest you at least glance over the walls and give your own reads. Tell me in your own words what makes you confidant neil isn't scum.

I'm not forgetting my own reads list, I just don't have enough time to set down and write it. I know, "but you had time to..."

I won't be defending myself against your cases, considering pretty much 100% of them are self-assumed. I cannot argue against your view of my posts. You can look at one post and say it's obviously me trying to XYZ, while in reality that's not what I said/did at all. If you take my posts for face-value, like for example Ank is doing, and you actually look at the people voting me (pretty much the entire scum read for everyone else, apart from "me") then you'd see why my wagon is so fishy.

neil, I got a bunch of things on a notepad file of you doing questionable things i.e. rephrasing things to make them imflamatory, doing the same things you say are scum tells, etc. I

will

get it together before I go to bed tonight. I will be shocked if you aren't scum.

[jon_h61]

@ Ank Sorry, I missed that post somehow.

[jon_h61]

Hey Ank any comment on the whole OMGUS debacle, or about the soft claim thing or the posts where I prove nail paraphrased things to make them accusatory?

[jon_h61]

@ Ank I just can't make a tl;dr for neil, too many things to address. I'd like a sentence from you as to why you Town read Hop's slot, please.

And I'd put saki, Loran, and Tlachta as "almost-scum reads" too, so your accusing me of not being suspicious enough have no merit.

^

Alright, I read up to page 7 and made notes. I'll go fully into detail when I'm done reading, but here's my general reads so far:

Scum: Flames of Disaster, Captain Picard, thenewearth
Null-Scum: Tlachta C, MTD
Null-Town: Malakittens, Saki, Ibarra


Town: No Stone Unturned, Lorantheceae, Hopkirk

You have a good record of calling Town scum, so I don't think I'm going to give your posts much credence.

neil used a few words out of this post to make his paraphrase say I'd never consider anything else that Ank would say.

OK I'll take a look at how you say things played out, and I'll get back to you. I want to see the transition from Cele to you .

This is shortly after the mushroom comment from me. neil never addressed the issue we were having, just used a few words to paint the situation the way he wanted Town to believe was happening.

-- Jon:Ankamius makes a point that your mindset isn't making much sense, you're only response is to call it BS (738) so, rightfully so, Ank places a vote on you. You're response? (741) "

You had bad calls reading up to page 7, so therefore the rest of your calls are invalid the rest of the game

." - paraphrased. Then in (742) you soft-claim.

The soft claim thing he tried to blow up into an issue is a non event. But he can try to make something out of it work again if he wants to.

Your spot has given me scummy red flags the entire game as I read

This right after saying he didn't have anything on me, and that his scum read was all Iberra.

To everyone else:Am I reaching here? Or can you follow my logic?

Wouldn't this be an "appeal to masses" scum tell? Asking someone's opinion is an AtM scum tell, right?

I don't want to quote it, but the buddy attempt with Saki didn't sit well either.

neil, it's too easy to make walls out of your

scumhunting

, if you want to list what you think are my scum tells I promise I will refrain from any dismissive quips and address them politely and civilly. If we are both Town, one of us (or both) is giving scum a lot of help.



I'm not liking all these quiet slots, and very seriously consider that at least one of them may be scum. But if say Saki is scum, Does anyone have a clue how to investigate/question them to find out? < AtM

[jon_h61]

@ Titus Do you

really

feel neil is Town?

@ neil I guess I should be happy you're just such a confidant person.

[jon_h61]

I can't wait to hear your post game rants neil. You are so wrong and so full of vitriol I'd love to go against my win condition and vote myself if you can convince a few others of your rhetoric. You get the votes I'll hammer myself. I'll be around all day tomorrow, so I'm interested to see what other stories you are going to tell.

" makes me wonder if you're trying to strongman your way to force Hayate out of people's minds and force feed them me. Don't be stupid Jon, you're not dealing with stupid town. Well... for most of us." What does this even mean?

[jon_h61]

By the way your THREE TIMES crap is crap. I just now have had time to glimpse this page, but tunnel me and call it Town motivated all you want.

I asked because I'm shocked anyone would think you're Town posting.

[jon_h61]

My last thought of the night. If there is any chance in the world me and neil are on the same team, for the good of the Town one of us needs to go. We'd never be able to work together (if we're both Town), and we'll be worse for Town's chances than the two scums that'd be left. I want that 1V1 with neil.

Please Town, pick me or neil for today's lynch.

pedit neil is dead set I'm scum (whatever his alignment), and is unwilling to waver in his beliefs. I'm ready to prove him wrong, and bring him down a notch or two.

[jon_h61]

UNVOTE:

until tomorrow

[jon_h61]

So what you're telling me Jon, is that the most town-motivated thing to do (the most helpful thing for the town) is to lynch one of us, even if that means lynching you?

You really aren't going to even try defending yourself, or even looking at others for a lynch

.

Yet you claim me as the tunneler

? I gave you a chance to defend yourself, you didn't. You spun in circles. You claimed things that weren't true, and

pushed your twisted view point

towards us

as if you led the town or something

. Jon, I'm not voting you right now. Yet you'd still try and redirect the town to vote for one of us, saying it's the "best thing for the town." Even, by your own confession, if we were both town.

Do you see why that's confusing? You, as a "townie" if you are, are saying making the town choose between two townies (again, by your own confession "even if we were on the same team") rather than finding the real scum around us, would be a better option lynching today? You're forcing the town's hands (or attempting to) and you're telling me that is town motivated...

I disagree Jon.

Get over yourself

. You want to work together, fine. I told you I wasn't voting you today, my vote is on Hayate. Look at Hayate and tell me what you see. Tell me your other reads. Tell me who you want to lynch, BESIDES me today. Because as far as I'm concerned (and others, ex. Titus have pointed out) this "tunneling" thing you keep claiming I am doing, is very thing you're doing.

You use inflammatory language like this to prove you're a reasonable human being? Get over myself? Who thinks they're so god-awful perfect that they can go around spewing fake scum tells and say "I'm so certain, I'm not going to look anywhere, but at you tomorrow" crap. Let me put it succinctly - I hope and pray we aren't the same alignment. If you're Town and this is your scum hunting at it's best, we're sunk. This is you being reasonable? Your three major crimes I committed are so bogus, the OMGUS, the soft claim, and I don't remember the last ATM are so over the top I can't wrap my head around anyone falling for it.

The unvote was because of all the people in this game I'm most sure Titus is Town, (if you end up scum...) that I became confused on what to do, so for that moment I unvoted. I'm pretty sure where it's going, just so I can be called a tunneler by a tunneler. And hopefully catch scum.


Since neil can't work with me, and he's no longer willing to try to work things out, (indeed hasn't been since he took the slot) I'd prefer if he spent his time telling others of my badness. He'll never convince me to change my role PM. Remember my warning that he was cautioned in his win I read that his play could have destroyed the Town? I feel like that is likely to happen here. I can care less if that is AtF.

No, I'm convinced enough that neil's best interest is neil winning, and I don't see Town motivation in his posting. I feel this so strongly that I
VOTE: neil

[jon_h61]

neil baits his lynch targets with every post he makes to them. He argues definitions of words as proof positive, but they are only definitions that can be debated, and prove nothing. I could care less if he says my "soft claim" makes me scum. I can care less about all his other accusations too. If caring less is a scumtell, add that to the list.

I have WAY TOO MUCH CONFBIAS to continue arguing with him, so on the off chance he's Town, then the other Townies will have to save him.

I wouldn't dare presume to ask him to change his vote, but I'm VERY interested in hearing anything/everything he has to say on my scum partner. That'll make for an interesting read.

@ Ank I'd call it a scum gambit, but I do suffer from confirmation bias. I've seen a game where two scum argued just like we are doing, and it very nearly won them the game. Majiffy was the surviving scum (from their argument). So this is proof that neil is scum. I

define

it as bussing. Don't argue the definition of bussing, I said that was the definition and that's that.

That's the reason I wouldn't mind being the lynch, to watch him choke on his words. I'd really like to hear that speech. I promise to not say another word about neil the rest of this day phase.

[jon_h61]

@ Titus I'm not scared of a lynch, even kinda welcome it. But for the wrong reasons, I know.
I've learnt a valuable self lesson, I can be a lot easier baited than I realized. Hopefully I can put this self knowledge to use in later games.

[jon_h61]

Titus, that's kind of a dumb question. The person I've been saying writes inflammatory posts. The one who wants to argue definitions of words, than try to use it as proof positive of things. The one who has done just about everything that he's accused me of being a scum tell.

[jon_h61]

I will be looking that game up actually, I tried to find it earlier but failed. I didn't think about a Newbie game.

How could this be when if you click on someone's avatar it brings up a link that says "view their topics". It's not the only Road to Rome I've played in by far. Just one of the things from my notepad file.

I can see this game going bad if neil and I have to fight out the next Day. If people think neil's Town and going to be better at catching the real scum, I invite them to vote me. If not he'll just stay in his one track mind state, and I really, really fear it'll do in Town. I wonder if neil sees any similarity between himself and Kattaze? I'm sure this is all an appeal to something, though.

I'm handicapped with confirmation bias this game, but I also think I'm not the only person suffering from it either. I hate to do this so close to deadline, but I need to take a step away from the game for a little while, so I can calmly consider posts instead of just reacting to them. And I don't care if anyone adds this to their scumminess list of things.

[jon_h61]

@ Titus That's the point, we have the Constitution, it sets down the law in words, we have lawyers that argue what the words mean daily. neil tries to shut down conversation by saying things like - and don't even try to argue definition with me, because it'll get you nowhere - paraphrased. I can care less if he says I soft claimed, hard claimed, or just claimed. I think it's a piss poor reason to call someone scum. He says he's posting from a Town motivated perspective, but I'm not seeing it, it might just be because the attack is aimed at me.

If he's going to spend all his time tunneling Town, (another soft claim) he's going to be inadvertently giving scum a lot of free help. IF he is Town.

I don't think he is, or I'd be voting someone else.

[jon_h61]

By the way my wife (Deb) wants to go out to eat and to the show. So I won't be around for the rest of the day. It's Valentines Day, for those romantically challenged folk out there. I'd almost bet this'll be the latest scum tell.

I'll be back late tonight to catch up on the latest goings on.

[jon_h61]

Last check as I go out the door. I don't care what you say (neil) I'm not going to read or respond to your posts from this point forward. Take it or say anything about it you want. I don't care about your arguments anymore. They're not catching scum, so there is that fact.

[jon_h61]

I have an excellent idea,

Vig shoot me tonight!!!!

This will prove beyond all shadow of a doubt how full of sh*t neil's case on me is.

His case is what

exactly

???

I'm being Anti-Town????
Why? Because he says so.
I'm 99.99 certain neil is scum, and this would prove it.

[jon_h61]

in before neil says I'm gambiting. Vig take my gambit.

[jon_h61]

Ok, case:Coming into the game, you make a great show of yourself being great and helpful (this is not about you being helpful, you are not, it is about the show), also in that post, you point at two scumreads, which is ok, but you act it out as a fact that they are scum and build your case all in the light of "they are scum so they did that", misrepping on the way.Generally towards your townreads you very often use an "understanding teacher" approach and AtE, whereas towards your scumreads you tunnel, the "reasoning" getting worse all the time.I acknowledge that this is a case that is entirely against you and that I didn't have a strong scumread on Tla, but as I mentioned, in my perception you outweighed that.

QFT

I have to go into town for awhile, gotta get supplies for three of our g-kids suddenly dropped off at our door. Date night.

If neil would want to put up a bullet list of my offences, I would answer that. It will still be part of my scum hunting.

[jon_h61]

I still think the vig should go ahead and shoot me, it'll completely cut off that line of speculation from them/(him, if I'm right and I think I am) about me gambiting. It's a pretty crappy line of reasoning to go down, but if neil gets voted off the island and I get vigged it'll give scum a lot less places to hide.

[jon_h61]

Saki id already voting Hayete.

@ Titus

If

neil would flip scum Today, who would you be leaning towards as to the last scum?

[jon_h61]

um I'm wrong. That's a lynch.

[jon_h61]

Aurgh I guess that's why we get vote counts, so we don't make these kind of stupid mistakes that's L-1, I believe.

[jon_h61]

I'd almost bet all the scum's on Hayete.

[jon_h61]

Sorry, next time I see one I'll keep my mouth shut for awhile/

[jon_h61]

@ Titus If neil flipped Town I'll probably be vigged.

Hopefully there's a dead thread. I'm just not looking forward to hearing about it being all my fault from neil if he flips Town.

But if I was alive Day 3, (and neil flipped Town) I wouldn't defend against a lynch from that point. I'd look deeper into Ank who sometimes looks Town and other times very scummy. Saki is just flipping a coin for me. I'm second guessing myself on your slot, but I seem to recall you said something similar about me. It'll suck if you're scum. For the longest time you were my strongest Town read. Hayette hasn't even checked the website in six days, so hopefully the fourth time is charmed. I'd re-re-ISO all the players in that slot.

The above is dependent on neil flipping Town, but I very much doubt that will happen.

I have MTD strongly Town. Loran is a close second. Dopog is redeeming Hop's slot somewhat, and I'd be interested in seeing more posts from him.

Tomorrow (Day 3) if someone would explain this gambit Saki was supposed to have done and what it would have gained Town, I'd appreciate it. Maybe I'm a little slow in my old age, I don't get it. Even if I'm dead I'll still read it, and keep up with the game.

@ MOD Is there a Dead Thread?

I don't see how that question is relevant.

[jon_h61]

@ Loren I followed along closely on your Tit For Tat game, and fast skimmed the others. I'm gonna bank on you being Town, it's all just an educated guess in the end. I enjoyed that game , by the way.

[jon_h61]

If I thought you were Town, if no one will budge I'll go and vote Hayate's slot.
This next day's gonna be interesting, no matter where I'm sitting. I'm going to wait for awhile longer.

Hayate, I ask for you're claim before I hammer. You got about an hour!

[jon_h61]

We have a couple of hours, anyone have any last words.

Especially the slots we don't hear from often. You know what I'd love. A game with no replacements, and everyone spoke at least three times a day.
That way I wouldn't have to worry so much about flooding the thread.

I have five pages of notepad on you of observations, they're just written as they came up over the game. You have a lot of notes, I'll put mine in spoilers if you do. At least a page or two. It'd end that path of suspicion on you.

[jon_h61]

^ neil

[jon_h61]

Well we're down to ten minutes, and no one came on to say anything. That's unfortunate.

VOTE: Hayate

This isn't the way I wanted this Day to end.

[jon_h61]

Hey anyone!

This isn't a lynch.

If something isn't done it goes into a No-lynch.

Less than eight minutes.

[jon_h61]

If I die and neil's still alive, don't let him off the hook easily.

[jon_h61]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: neil

I'll put my vote where I think it'll most likely catch scum.

Do you see why that's confusing? You, as a "townie" if you are, are saying making the town choose between two townies (again, by your own confession "even if we were on the same team") rather than finding the real scum around us, would be a better option lynching today? You're forcing the town's hands (or attempting to) and you're telling me that is town motivated...

Yes, I'm almost positive you're scum, so doing my best to get you lynched, or vigged is what I think is best for Town. Eloquent arguments don't always mean Town. I've lost to scum before, but I've won against smooth talking scum too. Like Yosarian and Majiffy. I really want to see your flip.

If I look at this like a scum-motivated post, which I would assume it would be since you know, you're scum... then my question is, Jon, who are you trying to protect that you're scared Titus will look into?

I have no idea, maybe you can fabricate something for me.

Jon, the way he is expressing himself seems weird to me, maybe scummy weird. Ibarra was null all in all.

You'd have to be clearer in what you mean before I could respond to this. I know neil pushes my buttons, but I'll do my best to reign in my feelings. I'm not afraid of being lynched, and I'll answer any question anyone asks me in a civil, non-snarky way. I'll think about the smart @ss questions, and whether I'll reply or not.

neil's posts,

even

when he's pretending he'd work with me is filled with vitriol that meant to taint everyone's views of me.

I think the scum team is neil and Ank, and only time will tell if I'm right.

I'm not going to rule out that Titus might be fooling me, but I won't go down that road unless I'm alive Day 3.

PS I didn't know the thread wasn't locked until I looked at my bookmarks and saw it had someone's name (I don't remember who) and thought that's weird, and came in and checked on it. I'm going to read a few of neil's games.

[jon_h61]

After reading a few of neil's games I'm more convinced he's scum, and knows exactly what he's doing.

I think neil is skilled scum who needs rope.

[jon_h61]

Personally, I'd take it as a compliment if someone called me skilled scum.

I gotta go to sleep or I'd go into more detail. My grandkids wore me out!

[jon_h61]

I've just started reading this (this page), I'd ask that we wait until the replacement gets a chance to declare their reads. I'm more concerned with his reads, than his defense.

By the way, welcome lucky. Haven't we played once? Quite awhile ago?

[jon_h61]

Lucky, there's not much information you can give unless you want to read over the past 46 pages. Lynching you right now would actually be a favor for you, would it not? (At least in my eyes)

You claimed you're a vanilla townie, which means at worst, we lose a lurker powerless townie (Hayate, not you per-say) and at best, we capture scum false-claiming. You kinda have a really bad position, because I feel it'd be hard to ask you to defend Hayate's actions, but at the same time anybody can fake townie for a day or two. It's the process, going through the entire Day Phase with someone, giving them a chance to show their true motivation, that would help the town find the scum. Not giving them 24 hours to act as townie as possible.

I can't help but think your claim is fake. But I also can't challenge you on anything right now, because you just replaced in... I'm caught between a rock and a hard place.

Are you making the argument that it's better to euthanize me? Even if I can't stop my lynch, I know I am town and will win with town dead or alive. I want to give them some posts by the people who will still be alive tomorrow to read. Why is that hard to understand? Why are so called town people seriously opposed to this (you and saki) ? I'll even agree to the stipulation that I be lynched at the end of the day, if I am given the time to contribute to towns victory. I may have done so already by you having made the quoted post.

QFT

[jon_h61]

I'd say right now, the worst thing that I see that

could

point to him being scum is that he's the fourth person in that slot. The question is, was there any threats to the players when they replaced out? I've had Lincolm flake in another game before.

[jon_h61]

In post 876, neil1113 wrote:P.S. The only reason I'm okay with lynching Hayate more than you, is simply because I'd rather have talking scum, then lurking scum. It's easier to read them.

Another attempt to get rid of someone who wasn't talking.

[jon_h61]

UNVOTE:

@MTD Sorry, in Hayate's post 879 he quoted neil in post 876 saying "P.S. The only reason I'm okay with lynching Hayate more than you, is simply because I'd rather have talking scum, then lurking scum. It's easier to read them." It is

another

attempt to bandwagon another person who wasn't really playing.

Gotta go start the BBQ grill. Gonna cook out.

[jon_h61]

So if I somehow get lynched today, and flip town, and you get vigged (and flip town), then the Mafia get their kill and so someone else comes up flipping town.... that's 3 dead townies in one phase. How is it not the smartest play to lynch Hayaki who will flip (scum), and then vig you who according to you should flip opposite (town), and then the Mafia kill off someone (town), so two townies die instead of three? If you believe the first is what's going to go down, wouldn't it be anti-town to place your vote on me?

The thing that's wrong with all these scenarios of neil's, he make it appear as if I'm Town reading him. If I was, then yes it would be anti-Town. I'm banking on him being scum though. FMPOV trying to get neil lynched, then going after his partner Day 3 (if I'm alive) is optimal play.

I'm sorry, who else did I try to get rid of that was inactive?

I apologize if my meaning wasn't clear with my recent posts.
I was talking about how neil pushed to lynch the slot for lurking, and then immediately pushed lynching it again as soon as the replacement showed up.

Actually the more I think about it though, Saki's opinion on hammering Hayate and avoiding the need for a replacement sits well with me. If that's the route we want to take, I'd be okay with that. I do think Hayate is scum, and he is one of my strongest scum reads. The only one stronger is Jon. So for the moment:

Lucky, there's not much information you can give unless you want to read over the past 46 pages. Lynching you right now would actually be a favor for you, would it not? (At least in my eyes)

I fail to see Town motivation in these posts, and I can certainly see how they could be scum motivated.

[jon_h61]

Jon, you fail to see how town-motivation can come from putting a vote or wanting to lynch a guy that you perceive is scum?

(Like it or not, that's exactly what you just stated.)

Yes, neil is saying he perceives them as scum. I'm saying I perceive neil as scum saying these things to make it appear he's doing a Townie thing. I'm saying neil's doing his best to kill Townies, (this on the assumption lucky is Town), while making everyone think he (who I think is scum) has Town's best interests in mind.

It all goes back to asking what is scum's optimal strategy? To look as Townie as possible. I think neil's play has been close, but not good enough.

My post proving this is how I feel would be a wall or three, but I'd happily get it all together if anyone would want to read through them to see if I'm right, or playing somewhere out in far left field. I'd spoiler them and put the tl:dr first.

[jon_h61]

I'd still like to see neil's flip. I'll bet you he's scum!

VOTE: neil

L-1

again

[jon_h61]

A quick question for Titus. When I started having my back and forth with neil, you mentioned in a vague sort of way that you were changing your opinion of me. The way it was worded didn't sit well with my scumdar. I'd go quote it, but I'm being lazy. Why didn't you (who until then professed that you thought I was Town) question me or try to show me that I was off base? Why didn't you do any digging into finding out if my intentions weren't Town aligned?

I wouldn't mind answers to these questions, but mainly I want to ask them while I still can. Scum could leave me alive to WIFOM Town, or if I'm really off in my reads. I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

[jon_h61]

EBWOP What I was implying with that bottom bit was that if I'm right on neil, the last scum just might take me out.

[jon_h61]

@ lucky That's OK. I don't really have to worry about making scum slips, I need to expose scum. Everything I've done all game is try to expose scum. So it's impossible to prove I'm scum. It makes it where I can be more aggressive. At any time anyone thinks I'm not looking for scum their vote better be on me.

As for the vig thing, that's up to him and I fully expect to be vigged if neil's Town.

tl:dr If you ever think I'm scum vote me.

[jon_h61]

I'll hammer at deadline, under protest.

@ Titus Since neil being the vig (supposedly) is out of the bag, can you explain what made you think his slot was the vig?

I've got a bad feeling about this.

[jon_h61]

I don't like how this day is going down. I've got this nagging suspicion that sum may be in those slots just setting around not saying anything. It's just a niggling thought and has no basis to back it up though.

If I had my choice, I'd rather compromise lynch Ank. I'm rereading, (at page 27) and I think Ank has more chance flipping scum than Loran.

I'll just crawl back into my hole if I'm wrong.

[jon_h61]

Think about this back on P27 Ank was writing walls and full on attacking, and when I even expressed doubts about him he came on like a Rottweiler on prime rib, not afraid to read and write walls. As soon as the attention was away from him, he couldn't be bothered to read to find out what people were referring to. Then went into silent mode, letting whatever may happen in Town without getting involved. I see lots of scum motivation in his play.

[jon_h61]

If Neil is fake claiming, why not let the vig kill him tonight?

QFT

[jon_h61]

Also, I'm a fan of not revealing everything I have right away. There's another point on Tlachta C I noted in my head but didn't put into words. I feel better about my reads when I get pressured about things I say. That's one reason I'm vague with a lot of my points. If you want a hint of what this point is, it's in this post.

Ank has a lot to say only when someone is scum hunting him.
Otherwise he's "not revealing everything I have right away".

[jon_h61]

Think about this back on P27 Ank was writing walls and full on attacking, and when I even expressed doubts about him he came on like a Rottweiler on prime rib, not afraid to read and write walls. As soon as the attention was away from him, he couldn't be bothered to read to find out what people were referring to. Then went into silent mode, letting whatever may happen in Town without getting involved. I see lots of scum motivation in his play.

Town , remember this tomorrow. Better yet, look over his play to see what you get out of it.

[jon_h61]

@ Loran Any last words in Twilight?

[jon_h61]

A quick question for Titus. When I started having my back and forth with neil, you mentioned in a vague sort of way that you were changing your opinion of me. The way it was worded didn't sit well with my scumdar. I'd go quote it, but I'm being lazy. Why didn't you (who until then professed that you thought I was Town) question me or try to show me that I was off base? Why didn't you do any digging into finding out if my intentions weren't Town aligned?

@Neil/Ank/MTD/Loran I am feeling a little uncertain about Jon and his unvote then revote. Now he's promising not to talk about his scumread. Was I wrong to townread Jon?

Even though you answered and even asked a few questions, you never pursued them. I'm trying to figure out why you didn't press this question you asked Neil/Ank/MTD/Loran.

[jon_h61]

^ I'd say you're putting the conclusion first, then seeing what you can find to try to make the case. I won't go as far as calling it confbias because I'm still unsure of your motives. My gut is telling me you

may

be Town.

Don't even go "boy, I got scum running scared now!". Show us your data and your conclusions and let Town work out what's real and what's not. I refuse to get into another heated debate like yesterday. I see where that got me.

I'm going to go over Ank's entrance into the game, and where I entered to see if I can get a better read on his slot. I'm not going to make any fast and hard reads this early in the Day.

[jon_h61]

I don't like the fact that for a good portion of the game we've had three slots that were mostly just place holders. It makes a good argument for LALs (lurkers), but not this late in the game. Even though lucky isn't a lurker, his slot was pretty much most of the game. dopog hasn't done anything to redeem his slot, and Saki just flits whichever way the wind blows.

I'd like to take some time and see if Saki is always this erratic. His votes have appeared opportunistic, jumping from Loran to neil, to whomever. I'm still leaning Town on Titus, and unsure on Ank.

I'd really appreciate anyone's input about the game, and would welcome any question or comments about my play. I'm not going to place a vote until I do more investigating.

[jon_h61]

Continue on like normal. But...

I'm going to be V/la on and off til the third. The last I new me and Titus are voting dopog. I'm not changing my vote.

@ mod: V/la thru the third due to Meat World Issues.

[jon_h61]

I still say dopgog is the best vote. If he has anything to add to his defense or at least some believable reads, then I might reconsider. Until then,
VOTE: dopog

[jon_h61]

I'll take a lot of the blame for the loss (I deserve it) Titus you fooled me for a large portion of the game. Believe it or not, if dopog had come back and posted, I was probably going to switch my vote to you. But that's all moot now.

I'm going to try a lot harder not to let someone get my goat, cough neil, it sidetracked my scum hunting. Town tearing Town apart again.

Congrats scum team, I feel you deserved the win. The next time I play with Titus, I'll be watching her like a hawk. She's got too many scum wins. For some reason she was the only player who had meta I didn't read.