Open 546: Fire and Ice (Game Over)

[3dicerolling]

Hey guys, give me a bit to catch up.

[3dicerolling]

Not too far in, but I'm curious. Who the heck advocated the pisskop lynch?

[3dicerolling]

He was so obv town. Wish I would've come in here sooner to tell you that. (I.E. just got done with a game with scum pisskop)

[3dicerolling]

I guess I'll have to make up for my predecessor's predecessor because he was trolling as town. I'm pretty sure I have pegged 1 scum, just gotta find the others within the next 20 or so pages.

[3dicerolling]

So at this point, there are 3 town and 4 fire/ice. I know I'm town, so that leaves 2 town left among you lot and 4 scum.

Anyone have a good reason why haylen isn't town?

[3dicerolling]

So far, I wouldn't mind owc lynch, as she was fairly inactive and kinda amiss, but I have another read who's screaming scum, just need to finish reading before I decide.

[3dicerolling]

VCAs are cool.

Vote Count 1.14 (Final)

[7]

Surye

-

mastin2

, Shadowcat,

fontisian

, Titus,

Gooner

,

Zekrom25

,

pisskop

[4]

Zekrom25

- Haylen,

Surye

, ObsessedWithCats,

jklash12

[1]

ObsessedWithCats

- Dry-fit
[1]

jklash12

- jmo16mla

With 13 alive, it is 7 votes to lynch.

Highlighted all the town on the wagons.

Vote Count 2.9 (Final)

[6]

pisskop

- fontisian, Titus, Shadowcat, Dry-fit, Haylen,

Edosurist

[3]

Dry-fit

-

jklash12

,

pisskop

, ObsessedWithCats
[1]

Titus

- jmo16mla

With 10 alive, it was 6 votes to lynch.

5 town on the surye wagon. 2 left. 1 has to be scum.
1 town on the pisskop wagon. 5 Undecided.

Notes -

- At the beginning of my reading, my gut was screaming titus scum.
- People have thrown around titus scum multiple times this game, but nobody has come through with a full attack.
- Titus was on both surye and pisskop wagon.
- Titus led an extremely town pisskop to the grave, and don't even pull that "haylen was their too" crap because from what I have read, haylen didn't affect it all too much and voted 5th.
- This is fire and ice. With a player like titus (yes, that's a compliment), who appears to be recognized as town by just about everyone, you'd think at least one team would want him dead, right? What's sounds more likely is, he is on one of the team, and the other team hasn't killed him yet.

Vote: Titus

@Anyone - Not entirely familiar with fire and ice rules. Scum has to get rid of other scum and have more people than the town to win, right?

[3dicerolling]

Really glad I didn't miss this gem.

Ok here's what I am seeing.

Looking at the fire teams kills in a vaccuum, I am seeing a neon sign that points to Obsessed with Cats. Who wanted Gooner lynched day 1 and jklash lynched day 2? Obsessed with Cats. This seems to be a little to easy, like the fire scum are wanting an Obsessed with Cat lynch. Those kills actually weaken my desire for an OWC lynch but still make it possible as kills could be obvious or a setup. That's wifom but the evidence points to OWC.

Looking at the ice team kills, Dry-fit makes a good candidate for ice scum. The kill on Fonti occurs just after Fonti and I started working together, thus preventing townblocs from occuring. This is also consistent with the iceteam taking out mastin d1. Dry-fit is also in a position to assume the natural power void here.

JMO is lurkerbait and tunnelled both days. I can see why he's here.
Edosurist replaced Zekrom who was useless day 1. I can see why both scum teams would keep him here, although he did seem to push against Pisskop which means he's got it a little bit figured out possibily.
Then there's Haylen. I really don't know what to think here. The major drama seems to avoid him for the most part (but for the Shadowcat/Haylen thing)

Shadowcat is probably the one person I still don't want to lynch.

Of course, I'm starting to get paranoid that maybe Shadowcat and Haylen are a team and that was all weakass scum theatre. Bleh.

The only thing I can see wrong with that is that it's you proposing it, and I'm getting more and more sure that you are scum. Although as there are two teams that wouldn't rule out the suggestion; it just makes me think that Haylen is on the other team.

I'm beginning to cool off a bit on OWC, mainly because I can't really see who their partner might be now that kop is out of the picture, unless it's jmo, which is certainly a possibility.

Titus

and Dry-fit are probably

my top scum-reads for now

, Edosurist the most likely to be town.

If this seems rather waffly that's probably because it is.

Shadowcat, that post just obliterated any townread I had on you

. You are posturing here in the last few posts.

1) You give yourself an excuse to vote Halen, because you only refuse to me leading the train. It leaves you an out to become convinced.
2) The OWC lacks a partner is an excuse not to vote a scumread. It's also bullshit. Your reasons for eliminating the people you did are shitty.
3) The 819 post is good town play. A majority of lynches are likely to hit scum, but that doesn't mean we stop asking questions and doing things to find the scum.



Dry-fit, I missed this, why is jmo scummy? He has been vla for half tbe game which makes him hard to read. Then his posts are full of derp.

Well, that read took a 180 didn't it now? Because, I'm sure your scum read on shadow had nothing to do with them calling you out as scum.

[3dicerolling]

So is OWC now town or just more town than titus?

Don't really like OWC that much, but Titus is ever so much more scummy.

You left out Fonti town on Day 2.

You also left out the big reason why my Shadowcat read changed. Those posts in a vaccuum look bad. Shadowcat's reaction to OWC and Haylen were big factors as well.

Vacuum? What reactions do you specifically not like?

Yup, you are right on the scum wincon. The role pms are at the font.

Not sure what you're referring to, unless you mean the purple text, which was me trying to use green, but it failing for some odd reason.

Who is your unlynchable?

Are you referring to me?

[3dicerolling]

Never mind. I understand post 855. Didn't realize you were answering that.

[3dicerolling]

I'd honestly like a little bit more time to develop my strongest town read by reactions, but from what I've seen, Haylen would be the person I wouldn't lynch.

And just because shadowcat and owc could be partners, doesn't mean your not still scum. It just means your helping me and the other 2 town players find all the members of the scum teams.

Honestly, since I am pretty sure your scum, I'd rather lynch you. You seem like the strongest scum player in the bunch, therefore should have the honor of dying first.

[3dicerolling]

I need to know who you think the other scum team is and why if you want me to back off because right now, you look pretty good as fire/ice #1

[3dicerolling]

Titus - I'll respond after school today.

DryFit - Whose perspective are you talking from? Yours or are you trying to represent everyone as whole? Regardless of who you are speaking for, tell me why you feel this way.

[3dicerolling]

I'm trying to push the lynch TO get the information we need. For instance, Dryfit and OWC are near impossible to be bussing partners. JMO is not likely a partner of OWC. So if OWC has a partner, then it has to be one of the three refusing to vote him. The longer we let a wagon linger, the less likely we are to hit scum.

@3d, You cut out the trajectory in your understanding. That's why I look scummy.

2) I posted two reaction style posts. First was my bs case on Dryfit. OWC sheeps that when I post it, although it was 5 layers of suck. Shadowcat doesn't call out the 5 layers of suck either. I then say Haylen should be the lynch, no case. Instead of providing a response, Shadowcat she could be willing to lynch Haylen. Shadowcat should have been calling that shit out, but wasn't. It was a test. I supposed Shadowcat would call me out. Instead, when they are like "we'll lynch everything" it looked scummy. You just saw the front and end of the trajectory and analyzed them by themselves.

3) The role pms, town and scum are on the front page. Font should equal front. I forgot the R.

4) Yeah 3d. Pick one person you wouldn't want to lynch. It's basically a scum check. If everyone says they are fine with lynching a player, but we can't lynch them, they are probably scum.

2) I can definitely see where you're going with OWC, that vote was a load of crap. Shadow to a lesser extent just because they are actually relating what you said to their current standpoint to you as a scum read. Right now, you don't need to do anymore scum hunting if you nailed the two ice/fire players. You just need to convince every town player left that they would be the best to benefit from, and tunnel the heck out of them.

@3d, it's pretty obvious why I'm not dead. I'm derping. Scum don't feel threatened by town leaders who have the puzzle wrong.

You ignored my responses to your scum theory, which makes me think you're keeping it in spite of the evidence.

It sounds more like to me, you picked the towniest player, put something together and then wanted to be on a lynch you knew had little shot of going through. I half expect Shadowcat to jump. Unfortunately, your behavior is muddying the fuck out of who OWC's partner can be.

1) If you are derping, than why do you seem so confident in your reads? If scum wants to kill anyone, they want to kill the active person, who is confident in their standpoint, unless of course, they are just way out there. Also, if you feel you have the puzzle wrong, then why should I believe you on OWC and Shadow?

2) I didn't ignore your responses, I just didn't see anything I really needed to respond to. Until I notice the last sentence of point 2 of course.

3) How are you the towniest player if you have the puzzle wrong? I picked the player who has been picked up on a couple times this game, but never really pursued, and who is most definitely scum. How am I muddying the water at all?

[3dicerolling]

Dry-fit, you have to pick someone you don't want to lynch for my reads gathering exercise.

Why did you ignore the fact I pretty much called you icescum?

If I had to pick someone I guess it would be you.

If you want to draw conclusions from nightkill analysis I don't know how much I can convince you you're wrong. I will say that as I've said my philosophy is that scum should be aiming for scum in this setup, so I wouldn't have killed fontisian. You can believe me on that or not but it can get pretty wifommy.

So is this why dry-fit is town titus?

[3dicerolling]

Gonna get to a response tomorrow, (exhausted tonight) but I do like some of your responses and am willing to keep an open mind about your win condition.

[3dicerolling]

The thing about not needing to do anymore scumhunting is absolutely wrong. We do need to lynch one scum, but we have to draw reactions that make them obvious to the other team. There are quite a few scenarios here, but we need the non-OWC team to shoot a scumfuck here to prevent the other scumfuck team from winning. If OWC-team shoots town and non-OWC team doesn't shoot the same town, non-OWC wins. If both scums shoot the same target, then we get another free lynch shot. We have to cut off information so that the big team can't shoot the scum AND hide, thus leaving golden opportunity for a 1 v 1 v 2 or 3 v 1. Then we no lynch, hoping the two scums NK each other or the last scum has to tip their hand by shooting the most obvious townie.

That's the goal. We have to ensure a cross-kill. So that's why we have to hurry and hammer the most obvious scumfuck.

Normally though, I'd agree with you.

If we lynch town here, we are pretty boned, but I don't see anyone making a case that OWC is town here. Stalling this lynch out is exactly what I expect scum to do because scum must find the last townies. Town just have to trick scum into nightkilling the wrong team here.

This is close to my thoughts. The thing is, my job for the town is to locate one person of the opposite team of OWC, so that they will shoot the other team. The problem is what you've done. You've said that you located one of the teams, then want to lynch someone from that team. In that case, the opposite team would shoot the last member, and the other team would be left guessing who the opposite team is and have a greater chance of shooting town. If they shoot town, then scum will have 2/2. The town loses. If you're town, do you see how you have screwed us?

As for the derping, it takes me awhile of derping to figure things out correctly sometimes. Look at Walking Dead. I derped on Oversoul until I figured out Candillian was scum. Still failed.

Ugh, loaded self-vouch question. I don't have the puzzle wrong, so your question ("How can I be town if I have the puzzle wrong?) is inaccurate and rhetorical. I'm editing it to "How can I be town if I

had

the game wrong?") Town mess up. We use the information we gain to solve the rest of the game. I'm always targeted as scum, due to my recent scum victories and frequent mislynches as town. Out of my recent games, I have had about 5 scum PMs compared to 1 town pm (out of the ones flipped obviously, this doesn't count ongoing).

You're muddying the water because I would expect town to know we need a quick scum hammer here and that was my objective from my posting. Only OWC's partner was supposed to resist an OWC lynch but there's two players clearly resisting, which makes no sense.

1) Fair enough.

2) Nice response. Would've been what I would've said as town.

3) Basically, read what I said in my response to the other quote. Pretty sure OWC is scum.

[3dicerolling]

The thing is, you and/or shadowcat are confo scum due to being the last two left on the Surye wagon who's win conditions are unconfirmed. Unless you're trying to say there were no scum on the Surye wagon, which is a load of crap.

I don't think you are entirely get what I'm saying. If you are right about shadow and OWC, like you were so confident about before, you're scum, and we lynch OWC, then we're playing right into your hands. Shadow is left alone and doesn't know who to kill, you shoot shadow, and we lose if they hit a townie. Except now in this circumstance, shadow can realize I am right and shoot you, which will leave your team with 1, which is bendficial.

The problem is, if you are town and we lynch OWC, then shadowcat will probably kill one of us, then will die, which leaves the scum team in a 2/2 situation. Do you see what I'm getting at?

[3dicerolling]

3dicerolling, I like what you are saying but why would scum vote to lynch Surye when they could keep their hands clean because we were doing all the voting for them? Not all early wagons need to require scum.

I'm perfectly willing to take the chance that scum will play against their wincon and shoot me. I would expect the scum team to cross kill here. We have to pick one team or the other team. We want to hide the identity of the town from the larger team, that's why quicklynch has to work. Let's suppose we find other scum and lynch them. What's to stop that team from derping? Nothing. There is nothing we can do at this point to force scum to play pro win con. I see what you're saying, I just don't think anything can be done to force scum to shoot each other.

Please, link me to a game where scum that were at least somewhat active, weren't on the day 1 wagon because I would love to see it.

I suppose I get what you're saying now. Even if you are scum, the logic is suitable because regardless of which way we go, it all depends on who the scum shoots tonight.

I disagree with you on figuring out who town is or not. Here's the deal.

Scenario: Titus is ice scum. Owc and Cat are fire scum. We lynch owc, titus shoots cat. Cat doesn't know who is town and who is ice scum, therefore mis fires on town. The remaining result is a 2 vs 2 and town loses.

Why would we want this scenario titus?

[3dicerolling]

Or this scenario: Titus is town. Owc and Cat are fire scum. We lynch owc, scum shoot cat. Cat either mis fires on titus or misfires period. Town loses.

[3dicerolling]

Haylen - There could be one from one team and one from the other, or just one from one team.

[3dicerolling]

So are you insinuating I should hammer owc now?

[3dicerolling]

So are you insinuating I should hammer owc now?

[3dicerolling]

Remind me one more time why I shouldn't find the last scum person and then prove everyone else town?

[3dicerolling]

Vote: ObsessedWithCats

Regardless of what happens, I gotta start learning about fire and ice mafia at one point.

[3dicerolling]

We could lynch me. Then, Titus would have to figure out the last fire scum because, ya know, Titus is obv ice scum.

[3dicerolling]

Basically, it would narrow down scum choices.

[3dicerolling]

If I die, it will be 1 vs 1 vs 1. Titus is ticked because she knows she can't win because I have revealed her as obv scum.

I'll need to think on Haylen and dry fit. Both are playing pretty town right now.

[3dicerolling]

How about this.

Vote: 3dicerolling

The most townish self vote in history. Lol

We have a 50/50 chance of Titus shooting correctly. Whatver she chooses, she chooses the winner. (Well as long as the other scum is smart enough to shoot Titus, and if you have any doubt look at my VCA. Titus will be the only unconfirmed peson on the Surye wagon)

[3dicerolling]

*person

[3dicerolling]

Okay, so let's imagine I'm final scum with Titus. I am extremely town by finding Titus and he shoots haylen/dry fit, I shoot him and win. This is a very good scenario for me if I was scum, so why would I choose to let myself die?

I am town trying greater our chances of winning. Even if I was scum, why would I give a crap of if Titus wins?

[3dicerolling]

*high fives dry fit*

Woohoo

[3dicerolling]

You played very well Haylen. You and dry for were both playing very town like.

[3dicerolling]

Pegged Titus as scum within the first 10 pages.
I knew OWC was scum.
I was wrong about shadowcat (was influenced by Titus though)
My gut was leaning jmo scum.

I got 3/4 right. Not bad considering I didn't actually do anything.

Shadowcat - Yeah it's usually like when you lose "well you shouldn't have done that dice" and if you win "I was behind you all the way dice"

[3dicerolling]

Yeah Haylen just a hint, if there is ever a town wagon on d1, and there is one person on it unconfirmed, and EVERYONE else is dead town, then that person is definitely scum. Glad you made the right choice

[3dicerolling]

What's with that face Pisskop?

[3dicerolling]

Shame on you Pisskop. You should know me well enough to know when I'm town.

And if I put my mind to it, I can swing the game around. You should also know this from our previous game pisskop.

[3dicerolling]

You were pretty town too mastin. You were also dead, so that read was flushed down the toilet.