Open 551: Hard Boiled - GAME OVER

[Quill]

I was gonna RVS Kid A for the Radiohead name and the Spiritualized avatar but then I went V/LA and missed my role PM so I hate you all for being more on top of this than me.

Protector's reaction to getting fake-hammered works for me. Not_Mafia's weak banter with CDB and pursuit of Lia doesn't, but I'm not sure yet if it's scummy. But it's page 3, so I'm okay with a

Vote: Not_Mafia

on that level of evidence.

I'm also looking forward to the eventual conversation between Zar and Protector, as I think there could be something there one way or another.

[Quill]

Protector's reaction to getting fake-hammered works for me.

Why?

It wasn't just calm and collected (which scum can fake), but it also revealed her actions had premeditated scumhunting purpose. Scum can fake that too, but it'd be more useful and appropriate for a town player. Also, instinct, although that's led all of us astray in its time I'm sure.

Earthquake, yeah I lean towards that being a town reaction from protector. What about Dritan stands out as town to you?

Preview edit: (Qull) I look forward to your thoughts on the Zar/Protector thing.

Protector seems to have a strong read on Zar after a minimal number of posts. Whether or not she's town, I'm expecting their interaction to tease out threads that the rest of us can dig into. It's not any more than that, so sorry to disappoint.

I'm beginning to think this may be a serendipitous wagon.

Hmm. I actually didn't notice that comment from Lia was coming from the first vote on the wagon. I'm kind of curious why Lia stayed on the wagon at that point.

So... Epiphanies of RVS votes turned serious don't sit well with me, actually. I find its easier for mafia-aligned players to find an excuse to not move their votes. Not really much of a fan of Lia's argument and move-out after Egg called her out.

(And yes, for those interested, I liked Channel's vote on Lia.)

Vote: Lia

I'll admit, I didn't notice this before. I also don't see the "by-play" that Lia says is him wanting to unvote, so that's another strike against her.

Unvote
Vote: Lia

VOTE: Quill

I want to hear more from you and I feel our vote on Not_Mafia has reached its peak in terms of read gathering.

Any actual questions, or do you just want to throw some general suspicion my way just in case?

[Quill]

Well I certainly think it's too early for "strong" opinions, but I do have a weak opinion about the kind of player who complains about me being "wishy-washy" in a post that opens with two sentences that cancel each other out.

Why are you no longer interested in pursuing Not_Mafia, since you didn't say and you're interested in who switches their vote when?

[Quill]

My post activity wouldn't look this bad if I'd posted the quick response I thought I'd posted yesterday. Damn phone.

Huh. I know this is weak, but I've let similar things go before when it turned out to mean something. I don't get the same obvtown vibe I had from Quill early in the last game we played together. Just a gut thing. Worth mentioning at least.

Fair. But in our last game I was V/LA basically all of Day 1, and I hate Day 1, so my Day 1 play suffers/is at least different as a result. Running around for two weeks chasing the feeblest of hints isn't as motivating to me.

Vote quill

They way protector handled her wagon was very poor and forced imo. I was torn between wondering if it was forced for *reasons* or forced because she's scum.

Okay, so the vibe I'm getting is that you're voting me because of the reason below, which is that you think protector is scummy? Once again: You are voting me because someone else looks scummy and I don't agree that that person is scummy? To further clarify: You have a scumread, who is not me, who you are not voting for so that you can vote for me instead on worse justification? I just want to make sure I'm not missing something vital that would make this seem more like something a town player would do.

Hey,

Sorry for not posting. I wanted to see reactions to the Quill vote and lost track of time. I am surprised only Quill responded. I think my other head didn't post to give me space. Sorry.

Now that you mention it, I'm maybe flattered but mostly weirded out about that (the no one commenting thing). Does this change your read at all?

I've got to sit back and go through this game, since I don't know what to make of anything right now. The fact that Lia hasn't really answered any questions doesn't make me want to pull my vote but I'm not sure if that's a justified opinion at this point.

[Quill]

Okay, so the vibe I'm getting is that you're voting me because of the reason below, which is that you think protector is scummy? Once again: You are voting me because someone else looks scummy and I don't agree that that person is scummy? To further clarify: You have a scumread, who is not me, who you are not voting for so that you can vote for me instead on worse justification? I just want to make sure I'm not missing something vital that would make this seem more like something a town player would do.

I have knowledge about protector that you don't (tangentially about why she'd replace out) that isn't directly about the game at all. It gave me an alternative explanation for why her posts would sound the way his did. You getting a town read from her actions though is completely unbelievable to me, and smells like someone that already knew her alignment.

Okay, I'm sorry that you know Protector well enough that you have pregame information possessed by none of the other players in this game, and can also meta her in general. I don't have either of those skills, so in my opinion, her response felt fine. Not "oh my god, she's the towniest townie who ever towned." Just fine.

I mean, feel free to keep voting me if you want to be stubborn, but just realize that if that's your only reason for doing so you're both wrong and grabbing at twigs.

I don't know why Kid A feels like we should still randomly vote for people at this point in the game, but I don't like the possibilities. Is his unhelpfulness/lack of reasoning a thing people can confirm is meta for him?

Vote: Kid A

[Quill]

Okay, I still don't get how this site's meta just gives people who vote randomly without reasons a free pass, but since that's apparently not enough to consider Kid A scummy and he's stepping up the pace in his last couple posts (#160 seems especially good) I'll back off.

Unvote: Kid A

Tbh, Not_Mafia's reasons for votes have been pretty weak thus far too, despite him including them:

Spoiler:

VOTE: protector

Covered (band)wagon.

You can't undo hammers Egg, scum move
UNVOTE: protector
VOTE: egg

What must be sort of a joke, right? Cause otherwise this is crazy ridiculous.

Read serrendipitous as duplicitous.

UNVOTE: egg
VOTE: ChennelDelibird

For that omgus

As he says, OMGUS.

Well the vote wasn't explicitly justified and I explained my thoughts just above.

I was pressuring him mainly, post 60 assuaged any doubts I had.

VOTE: Dritan

Explain yourself Sir Scummy Scumbutt Scummington

There isn't a reason? Except sort of what he says earlier, that Dritan sheeped on CDB, except Dritan sort of didn't?

Well neither is exactly spectacular. You should contribute now that you're here then. Post some reads.

VOTE: Kid A

for his terrible guess

For A's lack of contribution/bad guessing. That last vote of his is also for Kid A, for dramatic effect it seems.

TL;DR: Voting Not_Mafia makes sense, although once again there's people already voting him who don't seem to have as good a reason to as they should.

Vote: Not_Mafia

[Quill]

also i genuinely like my earthquake vote now btw i think if he was town and thought my vote was shit he would have voted back but instead he said why i was scum but didnt vote me ??

We didn't vote back because we only have one vote. Quill's pretty obviously scum too. She immediate jumps her vote to your wagon and then bails when the heat gets off. We're pretty much fine with either of you at this point.

Not_Mafia is pretty obviously town at this point when everyone's just naked voting the slot that way no one can defend him. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if scum were pushing that as a counterwagon.

We got Lia, Quill and Kid A. Whenever someone starts a wagon on the other, they either chainsaw or otherwise attack the wagon as it's forming.

I've been attacking you and Chamber for trying to form weak wagons against me, but that's pretty much the extent of it at this point. I can't help what Lia and Kid A are doing.

Quill, I don't think my town read on you last game was activity related at all. It was the content of your posts. I was reading what you were saying and going "yes, this guy has the right idea." I'm just not doing that here.

Fair.

TL;DR: Voting Not_Mafia makes sense, although once again there's people already voting him who don't seem to have as good a reason to as they should.

Town vote because they think someone is scum, not because it "makes sense".

If we're going to give up using logical deduction as a way to find scum, I should probably abandon ship now.

The fact that Lia hasn't really answered any questions doesn't make me want to pull my vote but I'm not sure if that's a justified opinion at this point.

What questions haven't I answered?

Why no answer to this?

I didn't see it, honestly. Now that I'm looking back, you got to them all eventually, so consider this a nonissue.

How is it covering when I literally posted a picture of a wagon

You know it's a covered wagon...right?

Read serrendipitous as duplicitous.

UNVOTE: egg
VOTE: ChennelDelibird

For that omgus

As he says, OMGUS.

NOt sure what your point is on this one

That OMGUS is not an especially great reason to vote someone, usually?

Well the vote wasn't explicitly justified and I explained my thoughts just above.

I was pressuring him mainly, post 60 assuaged any doubts I had.

VOTE: Dritan

Explain yourself Sir Scummy Scumbutt Scummington

There isn't a reason? Except sort of what he says earlier, that Dritan sheeped on CDB, except Dritan sort of didn't?

I said he sheeped on my misunderstanding of Lia's post not on CDB, which I quoted and clearly showed. So either this is misrepping or you need to re-read

That wasn't the way I read it, no, but it's not as though either you or Dritan made it explicitly clear. But that's neither here or there, so apologies for the accidental misrep.

Well neither is exactly spectacular. You should contribute now that you're here then. Post some reads.

VOTE: Kid A

for his terrible guess

For A's lack of contribution/bad guessing. That last vote of his is also for Kid A, for dramatic effect it seems.[/spoiler]

Why is that a poor reason? My last vote on KidA was sarcasm showing how silly his argument on Earthquake is, according to him that's how a townie should have responded to his naked vote.

This is the best of the bad reasons you've given. My point isn't that you're incapable of being rational, it's that you are generally doing the same thing as the person you were voting at the time, except you were writing a short line of text here and there to make it look better.

[Quill]

You can say you think the reason for some of my votes are poor but you're not establishing a case against me as what I am doing is scum motivated. You seem just to be following the philosiphy of throwing enough shit at the wall and hoping some it will stickk.

A large part of the CDB vote was pressure to get him to clarify why he placed that vote, which didn't have a reason attached and I have stated this a few times.

You seem to "missed" quite a few crucial pieces of information in the thread in regards to who you're attacking.

I'm not saying that each of your individual votes is evidence that makes you scum. I'm saying the reason you were voting for Kid A could be equally applied to you, and it was hypocritical of you to go after him for the same reason.

Your play in these last couple posts has felt more rational and more town, though. I'm going to

Unvote

and take a step back to look at who has a good reason to be on this wagon against me and who doesn't.

[Quill]

Okay, after actually sitting myself down and getting to an acceptable level of well-versedness on this game, here's what I have.

First off, my reads on Not_Mafia and to a lesser extent Kid A have been way off base. I think past!me had a slightly more valid argument against Kid A when he was posting less, but his posts now have much more of a town motivation, although he is still following other people's votes/suspicions a lot. I really don't like the way he and Antihero spin toward Not_Mafia at the same time around post #175 but his vote for Zar just now (before he switches to Chamber) is one of the recent ones that feels very town to me. My reads on Not_Mafia were basically me just being an idiot and skimming his earlier posts instead of actually reading them.

Of the recent three replacements, I feel like mastin's posts are coming from the most town of perspectives, although I agree with AP's reads more, which is a strange place to be in. Antihero's constant antagonism is really jarring, so I'm not sure whether the scumread I'm getting on him is just reactionary to that and should be ignored or if there's really something there.

@Lia: I don't have a better answer to you for my statement in #132 other than that you've been giving me a strange vibe all game, and it felt like your responses to questions were mostly just nitpicking. There are responses in there, though, so while they're not as satisfactory as I would like, I was off-base to call you out on it. On a different note, where is your scumread on Earthquake coming from? I can see where other people's are coming from, but you've scarcely mentioned them, from my skimming of your ISO.

And lastly, of all y'all, the one I'm now feeling most uncertain of is Earthquake. I didn't like their play in my initial few posts, and looking back through the game, they're making just one weak attack after another. They start off targeting Not_Mafia for going after CDB and Dritan, then switch over to me, and by the time they return after their long hiatus they sort of lean back and throw stones at me and Kid A without much effort to actually contribute or scumhunt. Post #205 feels especially bad to me; these are all cherry-picked from Kid A's early game, and ignore the better posts he's made by this point. (Not a million times better, but still)

I can/will expand on this more, but this seems long enough for now, since I have no interest in this being a billion words long, no one reading it, and everyone lynching me for terrible reasons. Gonna post quick reads immediately following this, though.

Vote: Earthquake

[Quill]

Current Reads, which got way more wordy than I intended but whatever:

Not_Mafia: Not mafia, likely. Town.
Egg: Had a good feeling about him early in game, but absence has fuzzled that. Null, leaning town.
Antihero: His vote for Formerfish early on felt good, but interactions with AP and Mastin feel weird. Not sure how or why yet. Null, leaning scum.
Formerfish: Admittedly, V/LA for most of the game (although not anymore, right?), but that one big post feels a lot like distractive busy work. Light scum.
Kid A: My read on him is still all over the place. Recent posts feel down, so we'll call this tenta-Town cause that doesn't sound like a creepy phrase at all.
mastin2: I don't sync up with all her reads, but her posts feel like they're coming from a town mindset. Curious about the CDB read.
Earthquake: As I said above, they've been making weak attacks all game and going after easy targets without getting their hands dirty. Scum.
Lia: Something about her posts is still bugging me. It's the way she's been picking at little things (not with me, where the case was more valid) without talking about some of the bigger details. Light scum, lighter than Formerfish.
chamber: Yeah, I have no idea what to think here yet. Needs more effort on my part. Null.
ChannelDelibird: His earlier posts felt pretty town to me, his later ones have felt more null. The way he's interacted with Earthquake makes me feel like only one of them is scum though. Light town. (But, CDB, can you elaborate on the reason you jumped on my wagon out of nowhere in your last content post?)
AngryPidgeon: His reads are largely syncing up with mine, with the exception of Lia, but the actual posts are feeling very calculated and artificial, and he jumped on that buddyship with mastin real fast. Light town.
Zar: He, like CDB, had an early town read from me, and it hasn't eroded as much. It feels like there's a lot of possible truth in Kid A's reasoning for voting him just now, though. Light town.

[Quill]

I feel like people act a certain way as town so that when they do draw scum they can act the same exact way and people will make the meta argument for them. I don't care if someone plays scummy as town, if you play scummy I am going to come after you.

Quill, if you think that my posting style makes me scum then go look at my past town games.

I would say something sympathetic about your dislike for Day 1, and then several people including Chamber were nice enough to point this out. Sneaky, but silly.

but the actual posts are feeling very calculated and artificial

Ok, calculated I could -almost- roll with. Im definitely aware of whats going on in this game and how Im interacting with it. (Like I mentioned Chamber and fish specific ally because I hadn't). I'd argue that this ^ post is calculated (listing everyone in the game and compiling what is mostly IIoA on them is ).
Buuut, how am I being artificial? That word definitely has a scummy connotation attached to it, pretty irrevocably. Which -is- the point you are trying to make on me, but I basically read that as "AP is faking things". So ya I'd like to know what it Ive done thats less than genuine seeing as how I'm just posting whatever comes to mind this game.

The part that feels artificial to me is the way you and mastin auto-buddied right at the beginning of the game – but if your relationship is more like frenemies than either friends or enemies, that makes total sense, because that's exactly the tone it felt like. So to clarify, it's not necessarily your posts themselves that feel artificial or weird, it was your dynamic with mastin.

First off, my reads on Not_Mafia and to a lesser extent Kid A have been way off base.

This feel weird to me.

Of the recent three replacements, I feel like mastin's posts are coming from the most town of perspectives, although I agree with AP's reads more, which is a strange place to be in.

What is different about our reads that you agree with specifically? I mean really the only thing is that I called AH scummy and mastin said null. (Oh apparently the CDB read. I'm pretty undecided on CDB. Had a gut scurmead there but could see the posts coming from town).

Yeah, by and large that's right. I think we could be moving in opposite directions on CDB. Although what in the world has you convinced Earthquake and I could be on a scumteam together? No one has pushed for my mislynch today harder than them.

[Quill]

Is it me or is Quill's #267 AH read inconsistent with his read of just his next post?

Antihero's constant antagonism is really jarring, so I'm not sure whether the scumread I'm getting on him is just reactionary to that and should be ignored or if there's really something there.

Antihero: His vote for Formerfish early on felt good, but interactions with AP and Mastin feel weird. Not sure how or why yet. Null, leaning scum.

I thought Quill was saying he was scumreading AH for being antagonistic, but now he's talking about not liking the interactions he's had with AP/mastin?

I'm ready to put Quill at L-1 if no one objects.

Don't see how those are mutually exclusive. I think his interaction with AP/mastin is strange, in an undetermined way, and I'm leaning scum on him overall – but I'm not sure if that's because that's what that interaction and some of his other posts are actually suggesting his alignment is or because his antagonism is coloring my opinion.

When I flip town, let's not ignore this post where Zar asks for town's permission to place a vote so he can shuffle off some of the blame for mislynching me.

There's got to be at least one scum on this wagon, and you kids better find him/her/it/them and not turn tomorrow into another edition of "AP and mastin Googlechat," although it has been amusing so far.

[Quill]

There's got to be at least one scum on this wagon

Yes? I mean there are 5 people on it and there will be 7 if you are lynched. Obviously the odds of there being a scum on it are pretty damn high regardless of anything.

Oh, well yeah. I guess I was thinking more "statistically, based on how game theory works," but yeah, mathematically too. My broader point is that more needs to get accomplished tomorrow than stringing up another townie incorrectly and chattering.

[Quill]

Quill, what are you trying to accomplish with your last couple of posts other than appealing for town cred?

Also, who wants to place a bet on how many votes CDB can get to before Quill jumps on his wagon?

CDB wagon is a terrible wagon, so you wouldn't see me jumping on it today, even if you hadn't made this obnoxious anti-town post. Talk to me tomorrow if his lurking keeps up and I'm still alive or if he actually posts something that takes my read of him from ambiguous to scummy.

ChannelDelibird: His earlier posts felt pretty town to me, his later ones have felt more null.

The way he's interacted with Earthquake makes me feel like only one of them is scum though.

Light town. (But, CDB, can you elaborate on the reason you jumped on my wagon out of nowhere in your last content post?)

What does the italic part mean here, quill?

There was a really early string of posts (like, page 5?) where CDB called you out on something apropos of nothing, and then kept poking you about it. It didn't strike me as a thing two scumbuddies would do to each other. It's a gut instinct.

Not being scum, I'm confused as to why these CDB and Not_Mafia wagons are springing up. You'd think more people would be screaming for my head/the scum left would be voting for me to get me out, but that's not happening.

The Not_Mafia one makes me feel itchiest, particularly with the way it started. AP's read on Not_Mafia goes from 0 to scum (okay, unsure to scum, but that's not as catchy) really fast, for reasons which Not_Mafia's already been harangued about in-thread: the way his posting style and response to things is. Why has it taken you this long for that posting style to make you think he's scum?

And Antihero, for as much as you were teaming up with AP against Not_Mafia for the last few pages, what made you prefer your read/vote on CDB to voting for Not_Mafia? I'm aware you're thinking it's just newbtells now; I'm talking about your mentality before then. In fact, what is your reason for voting CDB? I'm ctrl-F-ing your ISO and all I see is you following people onto the wagon and then completely ignoring it.

[Quill]

I'm ctrl-F-ing your ISO and all I see is you following

people

Zar

onto the wagon and then completely ignoring it.

well that argument kind of falls short in that i'm the second vote on the wagon

also i'm waiting for a few more things (re: the cdb vote). stay tuned.

Fixed it for accuracy. The general point remains.

Egg, in what way have I 180'd on Earthquake? My read on them has remained pretty constant throughout the game, it's just gotten more specific and sure.

[Quill]

Vanilla Townie. Sorry for being boring.

I continue to remain a million times more in favor of Earthquake going home than me, but that's alignment-negative and therefore unhelpful to you guys.

[Quill]

Well, I didn't do much this game except make myself an easy mislynch target, but I'm happy we won, even if we didn't take our first steps down that path until I was six feet under.