Open 557: Deck of Stacks [Game Over]

[tn5421]

VOTE: talah

I wanted to be first...

[tn5421]

I'm somewhat surprised there is serious discussion on page one. My newbie game wasn't anything like this.

[tn5421]

I actually didn't know that taking BP changes you to Mafia Bulletproof. If the traitor is still bulletproof as well if you take BP/rolecop/daytalk I think that'd be optimal.

The only person in this thread that I know is penguin_alien.

I actually didn't know that taking BP changes you to Mafia Bulletproof. If the traitor is still bulletproof as well if you take BP/rolecop/daytalk I think that'd be optimal.

I don't think it's a good idea to talk about this topic this early on in the game. At least not until one of the scum dies.

I'm somewhat surprised there is serious discussion on page one. My newbie game wasn't anything like this.

Honestly this does seem a bit atypical, but I'm liking it so far.

It's nicer than reading handwaves or RVS for the sake of RVS, even if I'm voting for you currently. My vote is 100% RVS powered, I wanted to be the first to post.

Re: What would you pick as scum? I think i'd pick nothing, not going to elaborate on why as that would give scum ideas on what to do if they did the same thing. I can think of the value on asking what they'd do as that could help us find what the scum picked after some flips, but not the why, so I don't know why everyone's discussing that.

-Saki

I agree completely, no need to feed scum ideas this early on.


Also, what undisclosed hydras?

[tn5421]

I don't have any intention of sitting on the sidelines. I didn't mean to imply that.
Let's hunt some scum together, Saki.

[tn5421]

talah: Mildly suspicious (see: townbloc)
Desperado: Uses WWE images. How dare thee! Has played setup before. Mild suspicion, unlikely to flip scum.
penguin_alien: Seems comfortable talking about hypotheticals (see: setup modifications). Mild suspicion, fo now.
Katengecchi: I've got a slight townread on you for now. According to talah you are a hydra of Saki and Koromo.
Cheery Dog: Greentexting outside of 4chan. Suspicious :3 (don't take this particular one seriously)

[tn5421]

Anyone that isn't included, aside from the confirmed town, is a nullread.

[tn5421]

@MOD: You messed up your countdown tag in 33

[tn5421]

Vote: talah

Serious vote

-Koromo

Not sure what there is to townhunt on yet, unless you think I couldn't see either of Desp or p_a having this conversation as scum independent or together. Totally null.

Go and re-read what i quoted and then get back to me. Why does it matter if we're the only ones who found your first post scummy? And I already explained why discussing why you'd pick X over Y is not a good idea. If you still don't get it, go back and re-read my post and tell me what confuses you about it.

I'm somewhat surprised there is serious discussion on page one. My newbie game wasn't anything like this.

What are you getting at with this comment? if there's some serious discussion are you gonna participate or are you just gonna stay on the sidelines making unnecessary comments like this one.

PEd. Nevermind you just started commenting that's good.

-Saki

Vote: talah

Serious vote

-Koromo

Not sure what there is to townhunt on yet, unless you think I couldn't see either of Desp or p_a having this conversation as scum independent or together. Totally null.

Go and re-read what i quoted and then get back to me. Why does it matter if we're the only ones who found your first post scummy? And I already explained why discussing why you'd pick X over Y is not a good idea. If you still don't get it, go back and re-read my post and tell me what confuses you about it.

I'm somewhat surprised there is serious discussion on page one. My newbie game wasn't anything like this.

What are you getting at with this comment? if there's some serious discussion are you gonna participate or are you just gonna stay on the sidelines making unnecessary comments like this one.

PEd. Nevermind you just started commenting that's good.

-Saki

Signed posts are signed. My townread on Katen is based on their being the only real people to start scumhunting.

Nice OMGUS, by the way. You're totally making me interested in moving my vote[/sarcasm]

[tn5421]

vote: Desp

Not random.

Discuss.

Though I felt insulted that my name was 'compared' to a title of my little pony >.<

As for stacking the deck, I'd probably have gone for daytalk and JoaT. My buddy wouldn't have had the opportunity to refuse >:]
Enjoy telling how this could help.

If the scum picked a JOAT, they could easily frame you as their scumbuddy if they were determined enough. I can see how you would find Desp suspicious but between Desp and talah, talah is more suspicious for me.

Then what was the point of asking "What undisclosed hydras?" if you already knew what Saki and Koromo were the Katen hydra?

Why would you try to pretend you didn't know what I was talking about?

I'm pretty sure you just scumslipped and outed yourself and Katen as scum. The third may as well self-vote because this game is over.

FYI for future games, OMGUS isn't a scumtell - it's something dumb which gets used to push RVS along.

I wasn't paying attention to what posts were signed with, and looked over it shortly after I made that post. If you're arrogant enough to not re-read the thread, that isn't my problem.

I didn't know what you were talking about until I re-read after making that post.

LOL, scumslip really? More like you want a case to lynch town on.

Your OMGUS is cute, please keep trying to scumpaint me.

[tn5421]

Then what was the point of asking "What undisclosed hydras?" if you already knew what Saki and Koromo were the Katen hydra?

Why would you try to pretend you didn't know what I was talking about?

I'm pretty sure you just scumslipped and outed yourself and Katen as scum. The third may as well self-vote because this game is over.

FYI for future games, OMGUS isn't a scumtell - it's something dumb which gets used to push RVS along.

Hi. I just missed the RVS so let's jump on the largest wagon, VOTE: talah. Anyways, let's watch what's happening.

1: There are 4 votes on talah now.
2: Lurking is scummy, don't do it. You're not conftown.

@Talah: Will address later, just got a game of Dota now. Expect a reply in about an hour.

[tn5421]

Ugh. I've been playing Smite lately. Also time to do housework.

Your explanation better be watertight. I'd also like to know your position on OMGUS as a scumtell, while you're at it.

@TN, they may try to do that, I'm ready for it but why is Talah scummier than Desp?

Void will be discussed later. Vote isn't interesting for now.

1. Yay, she's at L-3. If she was at say 5/6 votes I would say, that was a bit scummy, but meh.
2. So? I prefer to lurk and occasionally change my vote, sometimes asking questions, but over all I'm a lurker.

Ugh. I've been playing Smite lately. Also time to do housework.

Your explanation better be watertight. I'd also like to know your position on OMGUS as a scumtell, while you're at it.

Why does my explanation need to be watertight. Your OMGUS makes you more suspicious but doesn't necessarily mean you're scum.

@TN, they may try to do that, I'm ready for it but why is Talah scummier than Desp?

Void will be discussed later. Vote isn't interesting for now.

I feel that Talah is dodging some of the questions being sent his/her way.

1. Yay, she's at L-3. If she was at say 5/6 votes I would say, that was a bit scummy, but meh.
2. So? I prefer to lurk and occasionally change my vote, sometimes asking questions, but over all I'm a lurker.

1. Just pointing out that the wagon is growing rather significantly, and I'll be unvoting for a bit if it continues to grow. No need to cut day1 short with a derp lynch, especially since there is still a fair possiblity that Talah isn't scum.
2. It makes you look like you have something to hide.

[tn5421]

OH MY GOD I hate how the multiquote system works. This is how the above post is supposed to look:

Ugh. I've been playing Smite lately. Also time to do housework.

Your explanation better be watertight. I'd also like to know your position on OMGUS as a scumtell, while you're at it.

Why does my explanation need to be watertight. Your OMGUS makes you more suspicious but doesn't necessarily mean you're scum.

@TN, they may try to do that, I'm ready for it but why is Talah scummier than Desp?

Void will be discussed later. Vote isn't interesting for now.

I feel that Talah is dodging some of the questions being sent his/her way.

1. Yay, she's at L-3. If she was at say 5/6 votes I would say, that was a bit scummy, but meh.
2. So? I prefer to lurk and occasionally change my vote, sometimes asking questions, but over all I'm a lurker.

1. Just pointing out that the wagon is growing rather significantly, and I'll be unvoting for a bit if it continues to grow. No need to cut day1 short with a derp lynch, especially since there is still a fair possiblity that Talah isn't scum.
2. It makes you look like you have something to hide.

[tn5421]

@TN can you give some examples where Talah evaded questions, because I didn't get the impression.

Not sure what there is to townhunt on yet, unless you think I couldn't see either of Desp or p_a having this conversation as scum independent or together. Totally null.

Go and re-read what i quoted and then get back to me. Why does it matter if we're the only ones who found your first post scummy? And I already explained why discussing why you'd pick X over Y is not a good idea. If you still don't get it, go back and re-read my post and tell me what confuses you about it.

I'm not all that easily confused, Saki.

So if a miscommunication has occurred perhaps you would like to clarify what your point is, since I clearly don't get it.

Scum have already picked their roles - it's not like we need to be worried about giving them ideas for the next game. Theory discussion is okay to an extent as long as it's not misdirection, and I'm not seeing that in what's transpired so far.

It doesn't sit right with me to see someone not understanding what is going on when we only have 3 pages of content. I called this an evasion which might have been giving Talah too much credit. Talah also jumped ship from his/her RVS vote to OMGUS me pretty quickly. 40 is also dripping with arrogance.

@Pim, How is Desperado scummy? I'm asking because I'm reading him as null, because to me set up/What would I do as scum is just mostly null discussion.

Those aren't the reasons though
I'm withholding now for a good reason. Will explain later. But hint: good job.

I would appreciate it if you could explain sooner rather than later.

[tn5421]

I'm sorry about 49. I actually went and disabled quote-by-selection and multiquote because of that post as well as 38

[tn5421]

look the same (Yourself + the IC) so it felt like it was an unnecessary addition to his first post that he made for the sake of making himself look town rather than anything.

talah's post afterwards haven't gotten any better

, I don't get why he cares about who noticed the scummyness in his first post rather than why we're scumreading him and never bothers to ask where the scumread came from.

I explained why it was bad to discuss the reasons to pick X over Y as scum, not what they would pick, and I explained why it was bad too, it had nothing to do with "scum already picked so it doesn't matter", and more with "if scum picked X, you're giving them ideas", this was clearly stated in my post yet he decided to overlook it and ask me again about it, again it was a pointless question that I felt it was there for the sake of being there

as even tn noticed it in my post

at the very least.

Then he pegs tn for "knowing" the hydra heads when we've both have been signing our posts and both of us have posted, which seems like he's looking for a reason to pin someone down.

On a side note, our hydra may have been undisclosed pre-game, but it's pretty clear who's posting what, why would he be mad about undisclosed hydras after the heads have posted considering it's still early in the game? Unless he had a reason to wanting to have known who was in the hydra pre-game.

-Saki[/quote]

@Katengecchi:
First bolded point: I agree with this, Talah has been attacking me since I made 34 containing my reads at the time. I said 'according to talah' because it was his/her prompt that had me searching through your posts. I felt like he knew and wanted me to find out for myself.
Second bolded point: That isn't very nice you know >~<

Sorry, not seeing how Talah evaded questions :S

Sorry, not seeing how I'm supposed to care. If you won't share info with me then I won't share info with you.

2. So? I prefer to lurk and occasionally change my vote, sometimes asking questions, but over all I'm a lurker.

But this doesn't sit well with me. I get coming in and laying a vote on a bandwagon, but then you come in and try and give a caveat that you're going to lurk. So, if the wagon grows, you don't have to put any effort into it. Maybe drop in here or there to stoke the fire while you lay back on your "I'm a lurker" comment.

vote: voidwalker

I don't like this either (from voidwalker), but there are better targets out there, imo.

Disagreed as it depends on the situation. Besides, by being cryptic, I might get better reads.

By being cryptic everyone learns not to trust you and anything you might have to say in the future.

[tn5421]

Somehow my post got broken in half.....
This is part one, 65 is part two.



Before I address anything else,

if I do not say otherwise, text is in response to the person I am quoting or the person that made a certain post (which will be linked)

. With that out of the way, please return to your regularly scheduled post:

@57 aka SeeEmpty

Desp has talked a lot but said nothing. 14, 17, 21, 22, and 24 either don't contribute anything or contribute only to scum causes. The fact that 15 was even brought up is a problem.

The same shit. "Vote. Discuss." "Why?" "Not telling."

Good discussion. That is real helpful.

I agree, this is troublesome.

I voted you because being cryptic slightly withholds information, and the town needs information, so it is scummy, in my opinion, to be cryptic.

@SeeEmpty: This quote kinda applies, but it applies more to Pim at this point, who is finding himself on my list o' reads.

Ok so I see no one else noticed it, the thing that pinged me about talah's first post was that he put down a townbloc of himself and the IC, which if he's town it should be obvious why he's there and it should be obvious to everyone why the IC is there, and everyone's townblocs will look the same (Yourself + the IC) so it felt like it was an unnecessary addition to his first post that he made for the sake of making himself look town rather than anything.

talah's post afterwards haven't gotten any better

, I don't get why he cares about who noticed the scummyness in his first post rather than why we're scumreading him and never bothers to ask where the scumread came from.

I explained why it was bad to discuss the reasons to pick X over Y as scum, not what they would pick, and I explained why it was bad too, it had nothing to do with "scum already picked so it doesn't matter", and more with "if scum picked X, you're giving them ideas", this was clearly stated in my post yet he decided to overlook it and ask me again about it, again it was a pointless question that I felt it was there for the sake of being there

as even tn noticed it in my post

at the very least.

Then he pegs tn for "knowing" the hydra heads when we've both have been signing our posts and both of us have posted, which seems like he's looking for a reason to pin someone down.

On a side note, our hydra may have been undisclosed pre-game, but it's pretty clear who's posting what, why would he be mad about undisclosed hydras after the heads have posted considering it's still early in the game? Unless he had a reason to wanting to have known who was in the hydra pre-game.

-Saki

@Katengecchi:
First bolded point: I agree with this, Talah has been attacking me since I made 34 containing my reads at the time. I said 'according to talah' because it was his/her prompt that had me searching through your posts. I felt like he knew and wanted me to find out for myself.
Second bolded point: That isn't very nice you know >~<

[tn5421]

@70
No, the WWE thing is pure RVS.

Discussing the open frame mechanic gives ideas to the scumteam on how to frame certain townies as scum when it really isn't necessary. I understand the fluff posts, considering it was page one, and that is why I'm not voting you right now.

Which point prompted you to vote for me?

@mlearn: Talah feels eh, to me. I will need to look at her posts to get a read.

I just don't have enough on Talah to justify keeping my vote on him/her.

UNVOTE: Talah

Pim's actions are irksome, but could just be playstyle. Katen looks more like deliberate scum-motivated action.

Saki, why are you trying to undermine the town IC?

He's just mad that I'm scumreading him and he can't retaliate

.

Can you back up that statement, mister confirmed town?

Popping in to say that I'd be just as happy with a Katen lynch as tn. Saki came in really hot and heavy about his post-2 "serious vote" and it seemed over the top to me. His actions since then appear to be instructing people to trawl previous posts for information which isn't even there and to read into things which haven't even had time to eventuate.

There's a sense of unnecessary urgency and aggression which I'm not reading as town.

Apologies for the brevity.

1. We're making early pressure moves in order to make new information appear. Why is this alignment indicative?
2.

Do you have any other scumreads besides us and tn?

It feels like all your scumreads are derived from the general impression of the gamestate.

Also, what's your read on penguin?

-Koromo

I bolded the questions that I'm interested in hearing answers from Talah on.

[tn5421]

Discussing the open frame mechanic gives ideas to the scumteam on how to frame certain townies as scum when it really isn't necessary.

Can you please give this more than one sentence of explanation? I'm still not getting it.

I don't understand why you want to give scum more room to maneuver in. I don't really think it requires more explanation. IMO setup talk is best left to after-game analysis.

[tn5421]

It's just a gut feeling that discussing the setup before the game is over is going to backfire on us.

Updating my list of reads:

Pim: slight scumread, refuses to share information with town.
Talah: Still suspicious, but not enough to justify leaving my RVS vote on him/her.
penguin_alien: Still mildly suspicious, based on activity.
SeeEmpty: slight townread, while activity is lower than I'd like he brings up good points.
mlearn2, Findlove, beastcharizard: nullread, would like to see more content from you

[tn5421]

#24 was a response to the end of Talah's #23 where she said nothing had pinged her either direction thus far.

Ok. The quote in your post about beastcharizard vote on pim confuses me a bit. So it's a misquote then.

It's just a gut feeling that discussing the setup before the game is over is going to backfire on us.

Can't really see how the discussion would backfire, but discussing what setup would someone prefer if they're scum does generate unneeded and unrelated content that makes re-read more laborious, which is mostly what happened in page 1.

It's better than some of the derp I've seen...

[tn5421]

You find it natural that he attributed the discovery of your heads, to me?

I already answered this question, find it on your own or deal with it.

You should also stop selectively dodging questions during early discussion phase if you don't want to be scumread by people.

At least you answered the question I guess in 103, even though it feels like you're dodging as many conclusive statements as possible.

Did you know that not everyone is a superactive person actively hunting every post, and there are actually sheep? *Surprised Gasp of Sarcasm*

Did you know that I find this post rather scummy?

[tn5421]

And by that I suppose you mean why would you even need to answer?

You claim no knowledge of undisclosed hydras.
I point out that Saki is probably in a hydra.
You state that according to me, Katen is a hydra of Saki and Koromo.

I have already answered this.

It feels incredibly like a distancing attempt where you had knowledge of the members from interacting together in a QT during setup.

It feels like you're scumpainting me you dumbass.

Describe to me, in detail, how I didn't understand what was going on.

1: Your inability to determine the author of signed posts.
2: Your response in 27 is not sufficient to answer 26, Katen calls you out on it. You deliberately ignore and/or refuse to understand Katen's explanation post at 26 in almost literally every post you've made since then, when its not a hard concept to grasp.
3: I essentially quoted 32 when i said 'talah says katen is hydra of saki and koromo, since there is no way you didn't actually know that at this point.
4: Your OMGUS at 37 is cute. Relate to point one. I answered this in 38 & 66. Stop making me answer the same fucking question because you won't stop "Pretending to not understand".
5: 40 & 43 was all about you throwing dirt on me since you didn't have a real argument. You tried to scumpaint Katen and I and tried to tell me how to play. Again, answered in 41 &50 (Would be post 49 but that multiquote system fail).
6: 45, in which you attempt to pressure me for evidence. See point 5.
7: Called you out on your dodging the question again from 32. Katen did the same in 58.
8: 80 comes close to being an outright lie, the information is there, you simply refuse to read and/or understand. Please see all above points.
9: I unvoted you in 83 because despite my personal dislike of you, the above evidence just wasn't enough (at the time) for me to justify keeping my vote on you.
10: 92, part one, see point 1 and 2. Also this post, because this post as a whole is in response to this post. You should also stop lying, as Katen did state the reason for the 'serious' vote.
11: 95, your reaction to being voted is what makes you scummy in my opinion, it doesn't matter how much shit you fling at other people. Unless you want to bus your scumpartner, I am down for that. quote 2 you deliberately misunderstanding the quoted text. quote 3 was answered at least 3 times by the above points. quote 4 also a completely unrelated point. But please, continue to ignore questions asked almost 20 posts ago so you can misrepresent quotes.
12: 103 continues on your streak of ignoring questions until you can twist the intent behind them to suit your purposes. But please continue to pretend that your questions haven't been answered almost a half a dozen different times by now.

In light of all this bullshit, I feel safer putting my vote back on you and keeping it there. VOTE: talah

@Finglove: It's all about how you prefer to play the game. I find it null, although I wish our IC would be more active.

[tn5421]

I'm pressuring the IC to do something besides lurk.

[tn5421]

I put a lot of effort into that post for talah to just casually dismiss it on a bullshit argument. Updating my list of reads:

talah: Strong scumread, despite townslip noted in 112 (could be intentional), refuses to answer questions honestly, deflects all inquiries and doesn't even do a good job of it.
pim: slight scumread, same reason as last time.
Katen: I still have a slight townread on you because you are attempting to accomplish town goals proactively. If this isn't enough of an explanation, let me know and I'll explain further.
penguin_alien:

Still

mildly suspicious, based on activity.
SeeEmpty: slight townread still.
mlearn2: The IC holding back opinions can only help scum. I find your reaction to be a bit suspicious even if I agree with some of the other things you have posted. Nullread.
Everyone else is a nullread.

[tn5421]

@117 My slight scumread is only based on him lurking. He's starting to post a little more so I'm willing to give him a little room. See 121.

Yeah, I tried formatting the post with the quotes and I kept getting broken quotes with text instead of the quote box. Eventually got the Preview to show quote boxes with the text lined up the way it read out in the actual game and said fuck it and posted. This board uses some weird quote functions with a lot of letters and numbers, and aint nobody got time to figure that shit out if you're trying to reply to multiple parts of a post and separating one post into multiple quotes.

tn was the one I was referring to who looked to be trying to get the IC to give confirmation bias for another player. Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't mean to misrepresent who was saying what.

I was asking for his opinion. I got it.

The numbers and crap are just so the quote links to the appropriate post.

Things below this point are not gameplay.

Go to this url: http://forum.mafiascum.net/ucp.php?i=prefs&mode=post
Click 'yes' next to Disable quote-by-selection and multiquote if that is causing you problems (read: it fucked up my posts 38 and 49)
I use notepad to compose my larger posts and then paste it in and preview.

Code: Select all

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5863752#p5863752]post 116 [/url], mlearn2"]

You can click a post # to get the url above if you wish to manually do quotes, otherwise I click 'quote' and open it in a new tab, copy the text to notepad, and rinse and repeat for how many posts i need to respond to.

[tn5421]

tn5421, in 53, you say you don't like confusion with only three pages of content. But it's confusion about a specific issue; why does the amount of surrounding content matter?

It matters because there never was a misunderstanding. Talah is playing up the 'misunderstanding' for all its worth when he/she could simply re-read the 3 pages of content that we had at the time, which wouldn't take long.

tn5421, question: why would talah be so eager to 'scumpaint' you? Do you think scum are worried there won't be natural opportunities to get town lynched?

Talah started laying into me after I called him/her out on playing up the hydra situation.

Phrasing pings here. Worrying about justifying one's vote rather than using it on scum. What changed between what made you vote talah and here?

At this point I was willing to dismiss our fight as needless TvT fighting, because getting town lynched is only good if you're scum. I ended up putting my vote back where it was because Talah is the scummiest player on the playerlist.

tn, why in 89 do you have no read on Saki-Koromo hydra?

I left it out by accident, addressed this in my updated list at 113.

[tn5421]

1) How can you speak to another player's confusion?

2) That doesn't answer the question of how threatened scum should be at this point in the game/how eager they'd be to grasp at any (apparently feeble) excuse to vote for town.

3) So what made you think it was TvT and then that Talah was the scummiest of them all after all? I don't see any shift in your posts indicating you thought talah was town at any point.

4) I'm aware you left them out and had them on your next reads list; I find it hard to conceive that you forgot about one of the most active players who was heavily involved in your line of scum hunting.

1: 23, Katen replies 26, then 27, and so on.
2: I don't have an answer for you. I jumped the gun. I fucked up.
3: The points brought up late page 3 from post 67-72. This is also the point where my previous read on Katen became a moot point.
4: Nothing had changed at that point in my read on Katen, and I honestly forgot to list it because I was focusing on people who my reads had changed on. I fixed this when I noticed that I had left it out, unlike others *cough*talah*cough*. I generally do a stream-of-conciousness to make my posts, so if I'm not thinking about it when I make my post its not going to be in my post.
5: I know this isn't a question, but I put my vote back on talah because I was asked to go in depth about what I had on him/her in 92 (located at 106) only to have my post blatantly ignored. I was also pretty mad when I posted 106 so be warned.

[tn5421]

What answer of mine was he not satisfied with? I probably missed it while in wall war mode.

[tn5421]

Aren't we still waiting to hear about the results of pim's gambit?

[tn5421]

It's entirely possible that scum wasn't involved in the early argument at all.

[tn5421]

/shrug

I'm not going to make some shit up just because you want me to say something original. The tn/katen/talah engagement has dominated the game thus far and talah's already said everything salient about it re: katen's alignment.

How about tn's alignment?

Talah said this about tn:
what was the point of asking "What undisclosed hydras?", leading to:
distancing attempt where you had knowledge of the members from interacting together in a QT during setup, and also,
OMGUS is null

Talah said this about katen:
Saki came in really hot and heavy about his post-2 "serious vote" and it seemed over the top, and
instructing people to trawl previous posts for information which isn't even there, and
a sense of unnecessary urgency and aggression. Also
has got to be the weakest attempt at pushing a game forward that I've ever encountered from town

Anything I missed?

You brushed it off by saying it isn't progressing the game (read: important/alignment indicative) and then basically saying "there's probably one scum here."

Talah vs tn/katen are basically arguing on "serious vote", "undisclosed hydra", "setup discussion", "OMGUS", "answer my question", and in the end they're just telling each other to "show me where", showing laziness in reading the thread again. To me this is unnecessary and not progressing the game. This doesn't mean that I think they are not important. Alignment indicative wise, I still failed to see who is town or scum yet from their argument alone, but it'll help when we have more info later.

To get things straight, you are scum reading me for lurking correct?

For not interested in scum hunting and lurking.

1: Undisclosed Hydras: I hadn't realized there was a hydra in the game until reading this. I went back and read the thread over again and sure enough, there was a person posting with two different username signatures. I went back to the post I was writing and wrote it, unintentionally fucking everything up (ie: according to talah) when the wasn't what I meant.
2: Distancing Attempt: Properly replied with with a bit of passive aggressiveness. We have reached an agreement.
3: OMUS is null: Part of the above. I agree that it is null.

@SeeEmpty: Thanks for putting in the effort to give the links good descriptions.
@talah: Our argument made me reluctant to check the thread >_<
@beastcharizard: So you don't like me personally based on my argument with talah? This feels like a lazy justification to me, and I don't like it.

UNVOTE: talah

[tn5421]

So basically you're saying I need to get serious.

[tn5421]

@mlearn2: I stopped and realized we were shouting at each other over inconsequential crap. I'm curious about beast since he is voting for my lynch.

[tn5421]

I've got a slight townread on him. This hasn't changed since my last list of reads.

[tn5421]

@SeeEmpty: It is possible, but I know for a fact that I'm not scum. The only person I can be sure of is myself, and our IC.

@Justin: Welcome to the game.

[tn5421]

I'm taking a step back and trying not to get too involved again. By no means am I going to lurk, but I started taking everything personally.

[tn5421]

@Mod: I unvoted talah in post 169 and haven't voted for anyone since then.

[tn5421]

UNVOTE:

Since apparently unvote: name doesn't work.

[tn5421]

@beastcharizard: Your list is laughable at best. My initial vote on talah was RVS. When I placed it the second time, it stopped being RVS and was personal, which I have already explained. The problem with your logic is that it relies almost exclusively on WIFOM.

@Katen: If you're really suspicious of SeeEmpty, you should meta dive him to see how he plays. It is possible that this is how he plays as town. You also forgot to sign some of your posts......presumably as saki because Koromo is still signing his/hers.

@talah: WhiteKnighting means something different where I come from.

@beast: try re-reading the thread[/sarcasm]

[tn5421]

@Desperado: the 4chan definition

[tn5421]

@beastcharizard: Your list is laughable at best. My initial vote on talah was RVS. When I placed it the second time, it stopped being RVS and was personal, which I have already explained. The problem with your logic is that it relies almost exclusively on WIFOM.

Please do quote your second vote on them.

106. The one that everyone ignored.

I see you found it.

Why does it bother you to the point you would threaten Katen with a policy vote but doesn't seem to bother you at all from Pim?

In my opinion, actively lurking, as opposed to not being able to log in, is a primarily

scum motivated

action. If you're here, you can post, or you can build a post, or you simply not sign up for a game if you can't actually play.

@Talah: There is a word for that, it's called doublethink. aka: simultaneously holding 2 opinions that contradict each other.

@penguin:

You have some questions in my wall 193. Plz answer

Naaaah. You're basically not going to be happy unless I town read you and agree with you, and since that's not happening, I don't feel like wasting my time with mincing little Q&A sessions.

I can't help but feel this is a bit scummy, even if I understand that you simply don't want to argue. Denying information is one of scum's primary tools.

[tn5421]

I have half a mind to vote you for 245, voidwalker. Specifically, your attempt to shame our word walls.

How else are we supposed to learn the dragon tongue?

[tn5421]

It wasn't a slip. Koromo signed the hydra post here: 5. I wasn't paying attention to names but I know a lot of people that prefer to sign all of their posts whether they hydra or not. Saki's first post was 26. I wasn't paying enough attention to the post signatures until talah pointed out 'undisclosed hydras' in 27, after which I checked to confirm that information for myself.

[tn5421]

He wants to know why you don't care about the supposed 'scumslip'.

[tn5421]

I'm really concerned that Katengecchi is going to get derplynched and flip town.

[tn5421]

I'm watching the Katen vs SeeEmpty fight and trying to find out if either of you are scum.

Katen is very confident given that they have 5 votes on them.

I'm uneasy about SeeEmpty, Voidwalker, mlearn2, and penguin_alien right now.
I don't think that Katen is scum, just that Saki is having a hard time keeping his/her cool. That's not alignment indicative, in my opinion.

[tn5421]

That was also during RVS, BC.

[tn5421]

Post 34 was my rvs readlist. Please lie more.

[tn5421]

Finally, hardly participating? What has your slot done?

Why exactly does that matter when the evidence that he's participating is right in front of your eyes?
I would also appreciate it if you stopped misrepping me. I'm almost certain you were aware of my second vote when you made 209.

VOTE: beastcharizard

[tn5421]

Fuck them. It was close enough to being on its own line that it shouldn't matter, I though that was what the white background on black bold font was for.

PiM pissed me off but this has happened in a game I played before and the person doing the gambit was town. As far as I'm concerned its null.

[tn5421]

inb4 town tries to lynch Justin for 'amished tell'.

[tn5421]

Thanks, Talah. What Pim was doing is one of my biggest pet peeves. It would be stupid to deny it. Just looked him up and...ummm...amished seems to have joined after my last game finished, that is before my return a few days ago. Old school.

Are you still wanting more time in the day? As in beyond the weekend?

I got lynched in a game almost exclusively on this tell.

[tn5421]

It's surprisingly hard to evolve my reads when no one is engaging with me. I don't really like being an IC very much.

But seriously, there are very few cases going around, and I've made mine. No one is even really questioning the accuracy of my reads, building on my ideas, disagreeing with my ideas, or really discuss them with me. Except Katen who is pissed off that I think they're scum. I don't even know if anyone agrees with me. People are trying to defend themselves, but not doing a very good job of it. Nobody has really said anything that has inspired me to change any of them.

It's sort of weird. You have this person to bounce ideas off of and discuss with that you know won't lie to you, but no one is using that.

Anyone that argues with you is going to be labeled confscum and lynched into the ground, so you'll forgive me for continuing to treat you like the Dursleys treated Harry Potter.

[tn5421]

75 and 180 are indicative of what happens when someone tries to debate with the IC. It gives everyone an excuse to lynch you into the ground.

[tn5421]

I've been mislynched for amished before. It doesn't work as well as you think it does.

[tn5421]

tn5421

I'm not going to recap the hydra disagreement because it has been discussed to the point of exhaustion. I will simply state that I dislike it strongly when someone misrepresents another player's words as dramatically as tn did in this post. Taken in isolation I would not consider it strictly scummy, especially given tn's claim of being a newcomer to Mafia. And tn did eventually say he messed this up (according to talah).

If we were allowed to edit my posts I would have edited it out because I didn't mean to write that sentence like that.

The problem is, of course, that it wasn't isolated.

It started early. This:

VOTE: talah

I wanted to be first...

Was followed very shortly by this:

I'm somewhat surprised there is serious discussion on page one. My newbie game wasn't anything like this.

Honestly this does seem a bit atypical, but I'm liking it so far.

It's nicer than reading handwaves or RVS for the sake of RVS, even if I'm voting for you currently. My vote is 100% RVS powered, I wanted to be the first to post.

The reason this stood out to me is that no one had asked tn about his first vote or the rather odd comment that accompanied it. When I first read the thread I found tn's first post pretty odd, since it really does read as though he wanted to be the first to put a vote on Talah. I found tn's later statement even odder, so odd that I reread the thread to that point several times looking for the person who'd questioned tn's first post. No one did. This smacks really strongly of someone who thinks they've made a slip and is trying to rectify it before anyone notices.

And this is curious:

talah: Mildly suspicious (see: townbloc)

@So tn, did you develop your mild suspicions about Talah's first post in your post 34 after you told Talah your vote was 100% rvs powered in 29?

What follows are a series of posts where tn vacillates a bit on just how scummy Talah is, and how he might be unvoting her for a bit to avoid an early lynch, but beast has covered a lot of this behavior and this is going to be horrifically long as it is

@mlearn: Talah feels eh, to me. I will need to look at her posts to get a read.

I just don't have enough on Talah to justify keeping my vote on him/her.

UNVOTE: Talah

Popping in to say that I'd be just as happy with a Katen lynch as tn. Saki came in really hot and heavy about his post-2 "serious vote" and it seemed over the top to me. His actions since then appear to be instructing people to trawl previous posts for information which isn't even there and to read into things which haven't even had time to eventuate.

There's a sense of unnecessary urgency and aggression which I'm not reading as town.

Apologies for the brevity.

1. We're making early pressure moves in order to make new information appear. Why is this alignment indicative?
2.

Do you have any other scumreads besides us and tn?

It feels like all your scumreads are derived from the general impression of the gamestate.

Also, what's your read on penguin?

-Koromo

I bolded the questions that I'm interested in hearing answers from Talah on.

But then we reach here. And I am sorry to repeat this from beast's post but once again I have a rather specific question to ask about it. In ytn's post 50, tn had said that if the wagon on Talah grew he might unvote for a bit. Here's the thing though, the wagon didn't grow on Talah. Voidwalker and Desperado removed their votes on Talah and Desperado actually put his vote on tn. That's when tn removed his vote on Talah. And tn still kept on focusing almost all his attention on her. The only other two things in this post (clipped for space) was a little poke at Desperado and a somewhat bigger poke at Pasch.

And then tn posts this as part of his next read:

Talah: Still suspicious, but not enough to justify leaving my RVS vote on him/her.

Yes, I guess it was, technically, an rvs. But to describe it as this after all that had passed between tn and Talah seems almost as profoundly suspicious as the way in which tn removed it.

@So tn, why did you choose to refer to this vote in this manner? And why did you set out conditions that would make you unvote Talah and then neither follow them or explain fully at the time you removed your vote the reason for unvoting? And what was your thought in prefacing your unvote with the quote from Void?

And finally, when penguin asks tn about his phrasing when he took his vote off Talah in the post above, this is tn's answer:

At this point I was willing to dismiss our fight as needless TvT fighting, because getting town lynched is only good if you're scum. I ended up putting my vote back where it was because Talah is the scummiest player on the playerlist.

And this is awful. Break this sentence up. "because getting town lynched is only good if you're scum" is not a reason for "I was ready to dismiss out fight as needless TvT fighting."

It's a reason to remove your vote if you think the person your vote is on isn't scum. It in no way answers why tn was ready to dismiss his fight with Talah as needless TvT fighting.

@So tn, what was your reason for being willing to dismiss your fight with Taleh as needless TvT fighting? Because it surely sounds from the end of your sentence that it was because you knew she was town all along.

Sadly for us all, there is more of this to come.

I was surprised when nobody asked about my vote. I put it there because Talah was the first to post in the game when I wanted to be the first to post. Yeah, 29 was bad.

And this is awful. Break this sentence up. "because getting town lynched is only good if you're scum" is not a reason for "I was ready to dismiss out fight as needless TvT fighting."

Yes it is. I'm almost certain that Talah is town thanks to our argument. That is ultimately why I removed my vote the second time.

So tn, why did you choose to refer to this vote in this manner?

Because I can.

@331: Not until it's completed. It's currently ongoing. I was angry / seeing red when I made 106. I have no intention of answering further questions since you've got me set in stone as scum anyway.
I was getting tired of playing 6 games at once anyway.

[tn5421]

Greetings.

[tn5421]

TN is a stronger scum read, it's possible they're bussing, the

TN wagon is solid

otherwise and the strongest counterwagon to Katen in the face of approaching deadline.

You made me giggle, thanks.

Still

tn5421

. I am so sorry.

Anyway, I did read this post, and followed every link.

And by that I suppose you mean why would you even need to answer?

You claim no knowledge of undisclosed hydras.
I point out that Saki is probably in a hydra.
You state that according to me, Katen is a hydra of Saki and Koromo.

I have already answered this.

It feels incredibly like a distancing attempt where you had knowledge of the members from interacting together in a QT during setup.

It feels like you're scumpainting me you dumbass.

Describe to me, in detail, how I didn't understand what was going on.

1: Your inability to determine the author of signed posts.
2: Your response in 27 is not sufficient to answer 26, Katen calls you out on it. You deliberately ignore and/or refuse to understand Katen's explanation post at 26 in almost literally every post you've made since then, when its not a hard concept to grasp.
3: I essentially quoted 32 when i said 'talah says katen is hydra of saki and koromo, since there is no way you didn't actually know that at this point.
4: Your OMGUS at 37 is cute. Relate to point one. I answered this in 38 & 66. Stop making me answer the same fucking question because you won't stop "Pretending to not understand".
5: 40 & 43 was all about you throwing dirt on me since you didn't have a real argument. You tried to scumpaint Katen and I and tried to tell me how to play. Again, answered in 41 &50 (Would be post 49 but that multiquote system fail).
6: 45, in which you attempt to pressure me for evidence. See point 5.
7: Called you out on your dodging the question again from 32. Katen did the same in 58.
8: 80 comes close to being an outright lie, the information is there, you simply refuse to read and/or understand. Please see all above points.
9: I unvoted you in 83 because despite my personal dislike of you, the above evidence just wasn't enough (at the time) for me to justify keeping my vote on you.
10: 92, part one, see point 1 and 2. Also this post, because this post as a whole is in response to this post. You should also stop lying, as Katen did state the reason for the 'serious' vote.
11: 95, your reaction to being voted is what makes you scummy in my opinion, it doesn't matter how much shit you fling at other people. Unless you want to bus your scumpartner, I am down for that. quote 2 you deliberately misunderstanding the quoted text. quote 3 was answered at least 3 times by the above points. quote 4 also a completely unrelated point. But please, continue to ignore questions asked almost 20 posts ago so you can misrepresent quotes.
12: 103 continues on your streak of ignoring questions until you can twist the intent behind them to suit your purposes. But please continue to pretend that your questions haven't been answered almost a half a dozen different times by now.

In light of all this bullshit, I feel safer putting my vote back on you and keeping it there. VOTE: talah

Point by point now, and may God have mercy on my soul:

1. Talah's point was primarily about why you attributed to her something that he did not post. It is irrelevant to this discussion whether or not Talah knew both heads of the Katen hydra. What is relevant is that you knew both heads of the hydra from your own reading, Talah had not identified them, and yet you still chose to post that the information was per Talah. And damn it, I am talking about the Hydra thing.

2. In post 27 Talah addresses both points raised by Katen in post 26. Talah points out that Katen was the only person in town who found her first post suspicious and he expresses disagreement with Katen's position about discussing scum roles.

3. No it is not an exact quote, as it contains information not in Talah's post. Furthermore, once again, once you have looked up both heads of the hydra yourself it is no longer something that is "according to Talah". It is simply something that is.

4. Yes, your post 38 did answer the specific question in 37. And your post 66 offered some sort of answer for why you attributed the knowledge you gleaned from your reading to Talah. Just not a very good one for misrepresenting what another person has said.

5. In 41 you said it was Talah who made you look back to find what Katen's heads were. That was an answer to why you hadn't known about them previously. You did not answer Talah's followup in 43 in your post 50. You simply questioned why your explanation would have to be watertight. You did not answer her question in 43 until your post 66, which you referenced above.

6. It is called expressing an opinion and asking a question.

7. Talah addressed both those questions. Unless there is a third secret question that only you and Katen see Talah has addressed both those issues. I would need someone to clarify, and Talah very politely asked for clarification. So please, clarify this for me. Is it that you needed Talah to be so impolite as to say outright what he tried so politely to imply? Did you need him to say "I thought your first serious vote on me was irredeemably stupid". Because that is what the silence of the entire town was indicating.

8. No, Talah's post 80 is not a lie. And having reread the entire exchange enough times to give myself a headache I say this without reservation.

9. Well, you did unvote her.

10. No, Talah is not lying. And Talah also doesn't say Katen never gave a reason. He said he ignored the vote because it was ridiculous and when Katen returned to the topic and Talah asked for clarification Katen told him to reread the thread. All of this is true. In 58 Katen finally substantially restates the two points as part of her post scolding the town for not noticing her first post scumtell, but even restated as they are Talah has already answered both points. He didn't take the serious vote seriously and he didn't agree with Katen's position regarding discussing roles.

11. In 95 Talah answers both parts again, finally losing his cool a little. Katen has misrepresented Talah's problem with the Hydra thing, which is why you attributed your knowledge to her after you had acquired it independently.

12. This point continues your streak of misrepresenting nearly everything Talah has said.

You were really rather lucky no one read this post. It would have gotten you votes, not Talah.

There is a little more along this line but I need to go to sleep so a couple other shorter things:


tn, could you tell us in what games you have seen the following activity?

PiM pissed me off but this has happened in a game I played before and the person doing the gambit was town. As far as I'm concerned its null.

Thanks, Talah. What Pim was doing is one of my biggest pet peeves. It would be stupid to deny it.

I got lynched in a game almost exclusively on this tell.

Also, I must comment on this:

75 and 180 are indicative of what happens when someone tries to debate with the IC. It gives everyone an excuse to lynch you into the ground.

Although some of Katen's post would fall under the heading of debating the innocent child, this part seems clearly an attempt to undercut and discredit.

For someone that is in the null realm, you aren't making them feel threathened at all, and it saddens me that the voice that's supposed to be conf town isn't even attempting some scumhunting and pressure of their own. If you really want to contribute then do it right, but it feels to me like you're scared of applying pressure to desp for... what reason?

The last sentence questions the Innocent Child's motivations, not the accuracy of his reads. And "supposed to be conf town"?

tn, can you explain why you disagree with penguin's assessment that the above constituted undercutting the Innocent Child?

1: Didn't mean to
2: I've already said my piece on this, not sure exactly where it is in this clusterfuck, but its there somewhere. (framing)
3: I am aware; see point 1 in this post
4: See point 1 in this post
5: My realizing there was a hydra was in direct response to the "lol undeclared hydras" post, after (or during, I don't remember which) I made a reply. Considering the error I made, I'm more inclined to think I was doing both at the same time. I didn't feel the need to answer a question that I felt was intended to have me incriminate myself.
6: I was already mad at the time otherwise I wouldn't have replied as I did.
7: I'm loathe to delve back into that shithole, at the time I didn't feel the answers were satisfactory.
8: ""trawl previous posts for information

which isn't even there

"" -- this is what I was talking about, I'm fairly sure the information was there.
9: Indeed
10: I don't agree with discussing a setup in which player choices can change the setup. It's fine for semi-open and opens, since they are set in stone.
11&12: So? What are you doing to do about it? I don't particularly care if you think I misrepped talah or not. If talah thinks I misrepped him-her, I might care more.

13: I'm not allowed to explicitly say, as the game in question is ongoing. Suffice it to say that you can look through all of my posts and find the thread easily enough.
14: The IC is doing jackall in a position where he/she is the most likely nightkill, which negates the worth of a confirmed town. Conftown have an obligation to get involved and play twice as aggressive as everyone else.

[tn5421]

Quite frankly, I'm fucked day 2 anyway, so guess what faggots.

VOTE: Katengecchi

Insta-hammer, all night every night.

Fuck the meta.

[tn5421]

....I don't like you anymore cheery dog. No more stick.

[tn5421]

....It doesn't matter, I'm dead day 2 anyway. I won't be nightkilled because I'm another easy mislynch for scum to take advantage of, and that was almost definitely their plan the entire time.

[tn5421]

I get insta-scumread for townslipping, i swear.

Like, how the fuck am i supposed to get better if everything is just another excuse to attack me more?

Why even bother?

[tn5421]

I can't even tell you the worst part, as that runs afoul of the ongoing games thing.

[tn5421]

I'm not attacking you. But attempting to hammer another player without a claim because *you're* pissed off, is bullshit. Just saying. It doesn't help the game.

Why don't you answer me this?

Why the fuck should I care if you have a good game, when

literally

every action, inaction, communication, or response is just another tool for you to scumread me?
I do everything I can think of to accomplish town goals, it gets me scumread.
I stay active in a game where people aren't posting very often, it gets me scumread.
I come back to post after very nearly replacing out, get scumread more.

You know what the funniest thing is?
You just stabbed yourself in the fucking foot.
My flip will tell all.

[tn5421]

Thanks for making it hard to lynch potential scum, finglove.

[tn5421]

It's ironic, since I am a Town PR.

[tn5421]

I'm a Town Tracker. Hard Claim, have fun

[tn5421]

You guys might as well hammer Katen now, you can always lynch me tomorrow.