Open 557: Deck of Stacks [Game Over]

[Paschendale]

I'm confirmed town, so I'll wait and take a more bird's eye view of RVS as it unfolds.

[Paschendale]

Pasch's thoughts

1. The hubbub over Talah's townbloc post is hugely unnecessary. It was a little cheeky, but doesn't look duplicitous. Why point it out? Because you gotta point things out in RVS, even if they're obvious. Saki's harping on it looks a suspect, though. This is an incredibly weak reason to vote someone, and taking it like it's a serious scumtell is ridiculous.

2. TN is definitely looking like town. The inexperience is adorable, but the attempts look genuine.

3. Generally, the Talah vs Katen (mostly Saki) argument looks a lot worse for Saki. In 27, Talah makes a comment about undisclosed hydras. It wasn't anything about not knowing who makes up the Katen hydra, just disliking that hydras sometimes don't disclose. Between this and point 1, Saki is just trying to find things to attack Talah on. These are not good reasons to scumread someone. The Katen heads should know this, and trying so hard to make something out of nothing looks duplicitous.

4. Talah was also the one to point out that setup speculation doesn't help scum strategize, as their decisions are already made. The setup question from Desperado doesn't give him any townpoints, it's a null thing to discuss. Oh, and that's another thing that Saki claims is a scumtell from Talah. At this point, what isn't?

5. Pim's refusing to justify his vote put up a red flag for me. I absolutely hate it when people do that. If a vote is serious, and you have reasons, fucking say what they are. Stupid smug shit doesn't help anyone. And get a damn avatar.

6. Void jumping on the biggest wagon doesn't sit well with me either. No discussion of the merits, just pushing us a little bit closer to running someone up without anywhere near enough information. I do not like it. I have little doubt that, given the level of criticisms against Talah so far, she can absolutely be counted on to panic and flail as she gets close to a lynch and give people a reason to hammer her. And then she can flip town and everyone can tell themselves that they were justified and it was all her fault. Get off this terrible wagon now. Also, lurking doesn't help anyone, either. Please don't intentially be a liability.

7. On that same note, Desperado, don't disappear. Decent enough start, but stick around. Also Penguin and Charizard need to start playing. Setup speculation from Penguin is null, though correct that me as IC is a pretty good thing. I get misread a lot.

8. Finglove's opening post is okay. I like 3/4 parts of it. It illustrates a good example of good and bad uses of meta. The meta example of Void that he does this sort of thing a lot is good. The meta example that SeeEmpty did something as town and and now isn't is bad. Hardly warrants a vote.

9. Especially since SeeEmpty is damn right in his post. Very town.

10. Mlearn's vote on Voidwalker is good, too. But get an avatar. But Void is definitely right about Pim.

11. Despite all this defense of Talah, her own contributions are nothing to celebrate. Her attacking the undisclosed hydra question from TN and voting TN for essentially agreeing with Saki is terribly weak. Scumreading one's detractors is a normal thing to do, but not terribly helpful. She's right about OMGUS not being a scumtell, though.

-Town-
Finglove
SeeEmpty
Mlearn
TN

-Undecided-
Voidwalker
Talah

-Null-
Desperado
Penguin
Charizard

-Scum-
Pim
Katen

VOTE: Katengecchi

[Paschendale]

Not calling you out, just want your input.

Why is TN scum and not just inexperienced and wrong?

[Paschendale]

@Pasch: What is the difference between undecided and null? Also, why Tomagachi over pim?

Undecided is that there is info, but there are reasons to think town and reasons to think scum. Null means just not enough info.

Pim's actions are irksome, but could just be playstyle. Katen looks more like deliberate scum-motivated action.

Saki, why are you trying to undermine the town IC?

He's just mad that I'm scumreading him and he can't retaliate.

[Paschendale]

I don't know why there is an assumption of inexperience (aside from join date which is MS-specific), nor why inexperience means he wouldn't play reasonably competently as scum. I'll cite Road to Rome as evidence that some newbs absolutely paste experienced players.

Inexperience doesn't mean someone can't play well as scum. But that's not what this looks like. Not that this read is ironclad for the whole game, but based on the first few pages, that's what it looks like we're dealing with.

@TN: Your list in 106 is mostly bullshit. Two people arguing over what essentially amounts to an ego contest is nothing new, and being egotistical is definitely not a scumtell. Neither is people talking past each other. OMGUS certainly isn't, either. Your list is full of things that you may not like, but you show absolutely no scum motivation in. If you yell at someone long enough, and scream that everything they do is scummy, you'll eventually convince yourself. That's what you've done here.

---------------------------

It's also really weird how people seem to think that they can coach my playing. I'm gonna pick out who the scummiest person here is, and I'm gonna get them lynched. Shut the fuck up about how aggressive or not I choose to be. And anyone calling me a lurker has no clue what the hell a lurker is.

---------------------------

So, let's talk about all this yelling and nonsense. TN is angry about being suspected and is convincing himself that his attacker is scum. Talah is just being run up for no good reason. She's not doing anything scum-motivated, but is rather just trying to keep up with all the crap being slung at her. It is an empty, pointless wagon. And while TN is all passionate and dumb about it, Katen is being much more deliberate. They're defensive as hell at any criticism, and were just hammering someone based on who could yell louder.

The dumbass attack from Katen on Penguin is likewise deliberate and suspect. Attacking Penguin for agreeing with me is absolutely an attempt to undermine me, and make my voice less resonant. Trusting the only voice that is guaranteed to be trustworthy is a natural thing to do. Town does it. Scum might do it, too.

Katen and TN are essentially doing the same anti-town things, but in different ways. One, as I said, looks deliberate and intentional, the other looks like they don't know any better, but I wouldn't rule them out as buddies if Katen flips scum.

And despite the incredible stupidity of Talah's "Can you back up that statement, mister confirmed town?", I've played with Saki before. Saki is not a level-headed person and never takes criticism well.

That so many of the other players aren't saying much and only three voices are really dominating the conversation isn't helping us at all. TN, Talah, Katen, we get that you guys don't like each other. Yelling over and over and nitpicking every single post doesn't find scum. So shut the hell up for a while and let everybody else talk. Then you'll realize that no one is actually lurking in this two day old game. Most people are playing at a normal rate, just a trio of loudmouths are drowning everyone else out.

[Paschendale]

How about you stop just attacking people who suspect you and do something pro-town, Saki? That'll do a lot more to make people not want to lynch you than all the complaining in the world.

[Paschendale]

1. I get the criticisms of Pim, and his actions haven't been great, but he's just offered so little that I can't really justify a vote on him other than a lurker vote. And I hate lurker votes. The replacement confirms this. Pim is simply a non-entity.

2. Consistently, there is nothing from Katen I like. So much defensiveness, so little useful content. I have no idea where Katen stands on most of the players. They don't like Talah, okay. Don't like me, either, but I'm IC so that's just personality clash. But there's nothing close to a compelling case on Talah from them.

And then a vote on Penguin. Why? Because Penguin agreed with me against Katen. Koromo says that both heads have a scumread on Penguin for different reasons... but I honestly have no idea what they are. "Buddying", apparently. Not so different after all.

The only consistent narrative from Katen is to attack everyone who calls them out, and to proclaim that people who are doing town looking things are only doing them to look town. This serves to undermine any legitimate actions that anyone is taking. There is absolutely nothing posted by Katen that anyone should use to inform a vote.

3. SeeEmpty is hella towny

4. Tn... I don't even know about Tn. This is another slot that hasn't done anything scummy. There's no call for a vote there. But yes, please get serious. This game needs a lot more serious.

5. Can someone explain for me, clearly and concisely, the case on Charizard?

6. Can those voting Tn give updated reasons and re-examine?

Katen is still, far and away, the person doing the most to inhibit scumhunting. Is it because they are scum? Or merely because they are extremely contrary? That we have at least three players who are barely playing makes it certainly possible that scum are just lurking. But either way, we need to stop harping on things that happened on page 2. Going in circles is getting us nowhere.

[Paschendale]

5. Can someone explain for me, clearly and concisely, the case on Charizard?

My reason is simple.

Not contributing

and

lurking

. This is as clear and concise as I can get.

That's not really a great reason to lynch someone so early in the game. Once the game has hit its stride and there's more going on, sure. But everyone is still figuring themselves out.

[Paschendale]

Can we just lynch Katen and be done with it? I don't think anyone else is going to give themselves away like they have, and nobody seems to really be analyzing so much as just arguing. Even my townreads aren't doing much to scumhunt. Other than the presence of existing wagons, I'd almost suggest we start over with RVS. We don't seem to have gotten anywhere in this game at all.

Also, I really need to reread the thread, which I haven't because laziness.

You and everybody else, myself included. Nearly every read I have right now is over tone, not content. The setup spec was pointless and detrimental. The "townbloc" attack on Talah was stupid. Pim was kinda scummy. That slot should still warrant some scrutiny.

How about TN? I'm rereading TN's stuff and I see lots of words... but not much in the way of ideas. Lots of quote-talking, but nothing that's actually going to determine anyone's alignment. Same with SeeEmpty, though he had a better start. The more I think about it, the more I'm running out of townreads, just because nobody has said anything to make me think that anyone is scum. The only possible cases I can put together right now are for talking without analyzing (active lurking, essentially) or being argumentative to the point of obscuring scumhunting (also essentially active lurking). I don't even see anyone trying to push bad cases. So maybe the two major wagons really are on scum. I'm good with either one, or the Pim slot.

[Paschendale]

I was being somewhat facetious about a second RVS phase. I was pointing out that we learned very little and that we've got very little in the way of good cases or evidence.

[Paschendale]

Desp, who are your current scum and town reads and why are you being so quiet?

Pasch
Finglove
Justin Playfair
talah

Penguin_Alien
SeeEmpty

------------------ <-- Line of Lynchability

beastcharizard
Voidwalker
mlearn2

Katen
tn

ps I'm not being quiet

I like most of this, and would keep each person on the same side of the line, but might change the order. Except one. Why a scumread on mlearn? Other than the near-complete absence, that is.

[Paschendale]

It's surprisingly hard to evolve my reads when no one is engaging with me. I don't really like being an IC very much.

But seriously, there are very few cases going around, and I've made mine. No one is even really questioning the accuracy of my reads, building on my ideas, disagreeing with my ideas, or really discuss them with me. Except Katen who is pissed off that I think they're scum. I don't even know if anyone agrees with me. People are trying to defend themselves, but not doing a very good job of it. Nobody has really said anything that has inspired me to change any of them.

It's sort of weird. You have this person to bounce ideas off of and discuss with that you know won't lie to you, but no one is using that.

[Paschendale]

Um... why would debating with me make someone scum? I'm town, but I'm not omniscient.

[Paschendale]

That wasn't a debate. Saki was just trying to use our past conflicts to discount what I said. It wasn't in any way a discussion of the merits thereof. Do you have literally no comments in support of or against what I've said so far, TN? That would be pretty fishy.

[Paschendale]

I'd like to discuss and mention a couple of things and get your take. Sorry I've been a bit detached. The initial arguing really shivered my confidence and investment.

1. I get the criticisms of Pim, and his actions haven't been great, but he's just offered so little that I can't really justify a vote on him other than a lurker vote. And I hate lurker votes. The replacement confirms this. Pim is simply a non-entity.

Regarding Justin, I'm not giving him a free pass. Old-school players returning to mafia I've encountered several times (I can give you two specific examples of scum-returning if you need them) and they have incredible townvibes as scum. They're fresh and come from a different meta. But they tend to peter off I've found, not that that's reliable with only a couple of examples in my experience, and given I live tonight I think I have enough of a natural caution about this that I'd be looking for different things in Justin-scum as compared to anyone else I hadn't played with before. He leans town but not as strongly as from his entry in my opinion.

The biggest difference is simply activity level. There's a lot from Justin to go through, and it's very easy to townread an active replacement to an inactive slot. It's okay so far, but activity doesn't mean town.

5. Can someone explain for me, clearly and concisely, the case on Charizard?

To me it's very similar to what I'm worried about from Desp. I've been in town shitfights before and I simply don't know if this was one. Presumably others have seen town shitfights before. Desp merely says that he and I are in sync. Then he says it was regarding Katen (he's voting TN but anyway that's I guess an outstanding query I have).
Beast on the other hand says he follows my logic and then proceeds to townread Katen and scumread TN, ignoring the fact that the nature of the logic implied both were scum. He did respond basically saying that he liked the fact that I was scumreading TN but effectively for different reasons. The logic comment could have been about my use of logic I suppose. The strong townread on Katen stuck out, however.
I'm not sure about beast, could go either way but lack of being able to wagon outside of Katen/TN right now was a bit inhibiting. The game I played with him, surprisingly, fits in with what Katen said about him being generally lurkerish (which I intentionally didn't mention at the time) but the circumstances of that other game were quite different. He may have changed his playstyle but I'm generally slightly scumleaning him.

Sounds like he's definitely not the ideal wagon for today, then.

6. Can those voting Tn give updated reasons and re-examine?

Warrants a mention. I'm slightly town on him but this is primarily because he professed to not want to come back and read the thread (which I also didn't). He also seems to be struggling a bit getting back into the game (which I also am). Cautious because I've been caught out before town reading someone for a single, emotive reason. The early arguing didn't make a lot of sense but town can do stupid things in the heat of the moment (including making mega-walls of discredit).

Lastly I'd like your take on peng and Desp although I think you've alluded already that they're leaning town. These are two players I really wanted to engage with as town, and the lack of direct engagement worries me. peng has lurked more as scum than town from what I've seen but I wonder if in this game it's just an artefact of Katen hyperfocus. Desp is usually pretty unafraid of giving his opinions on, well anything.. and I'm not seeing that. I really really want strong townreads on these guys if they're town and it hasn't happened yet and so that's what I'm looking for tomorrow, even if I have to get under their skin to do so.

As far as the rest go - I'm at a bit of a loss and hopefully mlearn's replacement towns the towniest town ever and I can start getting some stronger townleans than I have right now.

Very open to conversation on whatever you want to bounce ideas on as well. I appreciate we've only got a few days and I've felt pretty useless for half of today.

I'm sorry that I've been kind of absent as well. I have not been in the best of health lately.

-----Insert several hour break here------

Looking over Justin's posts thus far, he really is giving a lot of critique and analysis, but not exactly pushing any cases. Looking over his ordered scum to town list... I don't really know why anyone is where they are. Sure he's said things about people, but I don't know which things he finds scummy or why. I find that scummy. Katen is in the same boat. They thrash and rage and yell, but I have yet to see anything from them that looks like convincing anyone to vote a certain way.

I don't have a neat, ordered list like Justin does, because I'm trying to sort out which details matter and which ones don't, as opposed to just commenting on everything. I have a lot of nullreads, and I don't like that at all. There's a lot of critique and argument in this game, but very little in the way of coherent arguments. Those are what we need.

I definitely still put the Pim/Justin slot into the scumpile, and Katen, too.

[Paschendale]

@Talah: Desp and Penguin are, like everyone else, asking lots of questions and then not making much of the answers. Certainly lots of engagement and I agree with most of their reads, but their arguments in favor of them simply aren't substantive. But this is par for this game. No one is really passionately pushing their wagons. I think this passive kind of play is going to keep town from winning this game. Compared to the rest of the game, these two are doing well, and Penguin is doing better. But there is a complete lack of compelling arguments. I know my reasons for my reads, but no one is offering arguments to make me change them, and it doesn't seem like anyone else is really changing their positions based on the discussions either.

Have anyone else's arguments really swayed you? Do you feel compelled to give up on a wagon you agreed with and alter your position on it based on someone else's case?

You could say a lot of things about me. But I am scrupulous in treating my fellow players politely and with respect. Even when I am pushing my most aggressive cases I do not rage or yell. Nor do I rage or yell when something absolutely, obviously untrue is posted about me, as you did above. I'm going to let this go for now, because town doesn't have time for it, but if we are both alive come morning I will ask you to provide examples of where I have raged or yelled at anyone in this thread.

If that statement had come from another player in the mix it wouldn't really bother me, because I'd figure they were just taking a stab at me. But you are the town's Innocent Child. You have no in-game motivation to make the absolutely untrue statement you did. It speaks to a profound disengagement with and a willful lack of regard for the game.

You're not making your arguments nearly as well as you seem to think you are. Or you're scum and lying about it. But as above, nothing you're saying is really telling me "move your vote to the people I'm advocating as scum". Everyone, including you, is talking past each other. Oh sure, there's questions and interactions, but nobody is really putting effort into convincing others of anything. Or if they are, they're doing a terrible job of it.

[Paschendale]

And to be crystal clear. This vote is for inconsistency. It is for pushing bad, empty cases in the noisiest, most aggressive manner possible, in a way that seemed to intentionally hinder town and backing off her first with a towntell at a point when it was more beneficial to her than her target. It is for calling out her own behavior as scummy when she believed she had seen it in another. And it is most certainly for calling the exact same behavior by beast as first the town post that made her determined to never ever let SeeEmpty lynch him and then to say she was wary of it. tn5421 has engaged in a greater volume of questionable behavior. But it is in Katen's that I see the most scummy intent.

See? That's what I wanted.

[Paschendale]

....It doesn't matter, I'm dead day 2 anyway. I won't be nightkilled because I'm another easy mislynch for scum to take advantage of, and that was almost definitely their plan the entire time.

Then maybe try to do something pro-town instead of whining about it. Give us a well-substantiated case. Give good reasons to not lynch Katen. Add something useful to scumhunting.

Thanks for making it hard to lynch potential scum, finglove.

Everyone except me is potential scum. Including you.

[Paschendale]

TN has been town reading Katen all day long. He tried to hammer without a claim. If that's not a scum claim, I don't know what is. It's survivalistic to the max.

That's actually rather compelling (the hammer vs the townreading). How does this one instance stack up against the rest of TN's actions?

I'd also like for Paschendale to seriously reconsider if he wants to be party to a Katen lynch.

Okay, convince me.

And this is the way I hunt scum. Don't really understand all the hostility toward asking questions now. They used to be all the rage.

Because questions alone produce nothing. You need conclusions. You need to make determinations based on the answers, and show us why you think this or that answer shows that someone is more or less likely scum.

Hammer without a claim is the key. Playfair mistakenly announced L-1 and he immediately went for it. That's not a knee-jerk town reaction, that's straight from the scum playbook, opportunistic and self-serving.

Except that everyone knows that quickhammers get taken to town the next day. A wagon will build on a quickhammerer every time, no matter how obviously scummy the hammered person was. Putting oneself in the spotlight like that, risking a lynch so blatantly, is not very good scum play. And having seen some quickhammerers get lynched over their hammer, they don't flip scum any more often than random chance would suggest.

[Paschendale]

Not quite sure what you're asking here, but I can tell you how it stacks up against any and all of Katen's actions. It's orders of magnitudes worse.

I've given you more than enough reason to lynch TN over Katen. It's just a matter of whether you want to be convinced or not.

Claiming that your arguments are self-evident and we're just lying to ourselves or being stubborn for not agreeing with you is pretty much the least compelling thing you can do. I have literally no reason to listen to you.

@Penguin: Don't fall for it. Scum can make up slips just as well as town can.

[Paschendale]

Claiming that your arguments are self-evident and we're just lying to ourselves or being stubborn for not agreeing with you is pretty much the least compelling thing you can do. I have literally no reason to listen to you.

I'm not claiming that my arguments are self-evident, otherwise I wouldn't be reiterating, clarifying and elaborating on them. If you don't think you have any reason to listen to me, there is not much I can do to help you.

I should rephrase that. I have no reason to change my votes based on what you've said. Your arguments are not compelling at all. They're not convincing. You do not make your case.

[Paschendale]

Paschendale, if you can't see that that's a fake claim, you're willfully blind. That goes for everyone, you're just the only one who has posted postclaim.

He tries to hammer because he's "getting lynched anyway". He says we can always lynch him tomorrow. None of that matches up in the slightest with him being a power role. He's clearly just trying to survive another day.

I'm on the phone and will adress other stuff once I'm home, that is if no one hammers before that. Which would not be bad at all.

It might be true. I don't really know. But that TN was pissy before and is now pissier does nothing to change the circumstance. That you're trying really hard to spin that into scum-motivation is much more interesting.

No offense to you either, talah, but you need to get over your unwarranted indignation. I feel very strongly that I'm right and I can see how I could be coming across as arrogant and that that can be a turn-off. But my arguments are most definitely not based on me being correct and others being stupid.

You're all swagger and no substance. Your arguments lack coherent structure or factual support. You're making them like someone who just wants his voice to be heard, rather than someone who is actually trying to convince anyone else to agree with him. As a result, no one is going to agree with you.

[Paschendale]

Seriously, though. Someone hammer Katen, please.

[Paschendale]

That DOES seal it. Scum knows that. They killed TN and not me. To me, the plan looks really obvious. Night kill TN, get Katen quicklynched, and then night kill me. 4 dead townies and not a whole lot of discussion.

[Paschendale]

Or, you know, they killed the competing wagon and had no idea what role TN had.

Desp: If Katen is off the table, who's on it?

[Paschendale]

I haven't actually changed my mind on all the things that make me think Katen is scum. And if anyone would pull a gambit like that, I think Saki would. I don't know about Koromo's style.

I really don't like Justin's vote on Penguin.

[Paschendale]

Despite any wifom, I don't see Katen as town and I don't have a better suspect.

VOTE: Katen

[Paschendale]

I think the three or four games that Saki and I have played together is enough to get a feeling of how he plays.

The no lynch in day 1 was really just unforgivable. We have gotten nowhere since then and have learned nothing to alter anyone's vote since then, with the sole exception of TN's flip. I assume that TN's death was done to either ensure or prevent Katen's lynch, but I have no evidence with which to conclude one way or the other, so my earlier scumread of Katen will simply remain.

[Paschendale]

Well, Saki-half-of-Katen, there is already someone else named Saki here, so I'm betting you'll need to change your name. Plus you're supposed to finish a newbie game before you join any others.

Let's make sure we get everyone back and active before lynching. And someone explain the suspicions of Penguin.

[Paschendale]

We've all been gone for a week. Our memories are fuzzy. Maybe instead of snark, people can reiterate their cases so we're all back on the same page.

[Paschendale]

I didn't buy it then, I don't buy it now. And since you don't want to take the opportunity to further sell your case, I'm not inclined to think that you buy it, either.

[Paschendale]

Looking back at it, I still think penguin was obvious scum, her posts were full of contradictions and scum motivation. I'm not as sure about Empty as I was, but he's still my first pick for 2nd scum. Besides that I have townreads on everyone besides {Justin Playfair, Desperado, burning_earth} so 3rd scum should be in there.

This would be more compelling with examples. Like, what scum motivation do you see in Penguin? And why do you not see Empty as town so much? And what about Justin, Desperado, and Burning makes you suspect them?

------------------

I agree that Katen looks gift wrapped for us. But at the same time, they're still my top pick for scum. If we had managed to actually lynch them yesterday, we would have a flip and a wagon to analyze.

That said, not only did CTD and Desperado elect not to hammer Katen, but Penguin shifted his vote from the L-1 Katen wagon to bring TN's wagon to L-1. Burning took TN down to L-2, so at this point, TN was not a viable wagon. CTD, Desperado, and Penguin are the ones who gave us a no lynch on day 1 and put us in this position. These are substantial black marks against them.

[Paschendale]

Or you could have hammered Katen instead of helping force a no lynch.

[Paschendale]

Pasch, why doesn't this, combined with gift-wrapped worries and what I see as pretty clear scumminess from PA today, motivate you to lynch PA over Katen?

Because I don't see the pretty clear scumminess and every time I ask someone to explain what they see, I get snark instead of explanation. If you want to make a real case on Penguin, please do so. I'd love to see one.

[Paschendale]

I like concise arguments that can be examined for consistency and evidence. Thank you, Justin. I don't see the same malice that you do in Penguin, but I see the honesty in the case. I might be wrong and misreading Penguin, so I could definitely join that wagon to avoid a no lynch, but I do still think Katen is the scummiest.

[Paschendale]

All of this would be much better if we had simply managed a lynch on day 1.

[Paschendale]

That's a very good point, CTD, but I wanted to lynch someone who was actually likely to be scum. After Katen flips scum, we'll know where to go next.

[Paschendale]

It seems like meta was a significant part of why you thought Katen are scum. Seeing as you evidently drew from misapplied meta, why are you still convinced they're going to flip scum?

If you think this, you clearly haven't been reading anything I've posted. The only part of my suspicions that had to do with meta was that a player with as many games as the real Saki wouldn't make noob mistakes. I mentioned that once. Our disagreements may have involved meta arguments, but my suspicions didn't. This Saki not being the real Saki actually makes them more likely scum, since the real Saki is prone to rash action. This one has no such excuse.

[Paschendale]

All of this would be much better if we had simply managed a lynch on day 1.

And by lynching Katen today, you're playing directly into the scum's agenda that started with NLing yesterday.

That's very WIFOM and I can't really justify not voting for my strongest scumread. I think Katen's relative absence today is suspicious, like killing TN was an attempt to keep us from lynching Katen.

[Paschendale]

You do understand qualifiers on a sentence, right? No part of your bolded portion means that anyone else wouldn't be likely to do that. It takes a lot more WIFOM to accept that scum didn't expect this move than it does it think that they're that stupid. Why are you trying so hard to convince yourself that scum are so obvious?

[Paschendale]

To prevent us from lynching Katen. To make us think exactly what you're thinking.

[Paschendale]

Penguin, if you're really town, please hammer Katen. No townie should willingly let themselves get lynched if they can avoid it and potentially lynch scum instead.

[Paschendale]

And to people that think scums just set up Katen as an easy lynch today: why can't Katen be actually scum? For now it is like you're giving them a town pass even they're not doing anything today. To me you're just overthink the whole thing.

This. Oh so much this. Even if someone finds the Katen lynch a little too convenient, how the hell do they have an actual townread on that slot? What scumhunting has Katen done? What pro-town stances have they furthered?

Meanwhile... rereading Burning_Earth. Not the best lynch choice, but certainly not bad. I would compromise on this wagon. There's nothing redeeming about this slot. That basically all my scumreads are on it, though... I don't like that. We should still lynch Katen.

[Paschendale]

@Pasch:

It's a moot point now, but this is why I was scumreading peng:

Definitely not moot. All information is useful.

We weren't the only ones arguing with the IC, but she singled us out.

You were certainly doing it differently, attempting to discredit me as a player, rather than simply attacking a single theory. The difference is that you attempted to discount future theories that I had not yet made. It came across as very personal very quickly, which is why I naturally thought that your Saki was the real Saki, as we tend not to get along. Your attacks were not simply to better scumhunt, but to try to nullify my credibility. That is anti-town.

This ignored the obvious fact that you think we're scum and we see things way differently on a fundamental level, and so it'd be practically impossible for us to work together. But instead she twisted it to fit some overgeneralized theory of how all townies should play.

Of course it's not impossible for us to work together. By doing so, you would have the opportunity to change my mind. But you squandered that opportunity. A defeatist attitude that you could never get me to trust you definitely seems like a scum thought to me. Scum tend to view people as allies and enemies, while town wants to enlist everyone they possibly can in pursuit of their target.

She town reads Justin for pushing Empty but ignores the fact we did the same thing. Coupled with the other things, there's a pattern of her selectively applying reasoning and forcing a scumread on us - didn't add up, read as going with the flow by sheeping a consensus scumread.

Her recent behavior nulls all this out though considering she doesn't seem to be scumreading us anymore, when we're still a viable wagon, but here it is.

-Koromo

This is not very compelling. It's a pretty passionless argument.

I dislike newbies as reference. I just feel newbies have a completely different feel than all other games on the forums. Also with new people all playing together you have to actual put effort into the game the whole time for it to ever go anywhere.

Agreed.

I'm with Justin here. Burning flips town, Crash can go down in flames.

Also agreed. I see few if any reasons to see Crash as town.

[Paschendale]

Fing opens up NK discussion but doesn't lead with any read or conclusion, just speculation. Pasch brings it up first, I agree with it, Fing talks about some other setup spec first and then comes in with his hard katen-town. He even says he's agreeing with me. That's what I was talking about with the buddying.

As the day has gone on, and I have given it more consideration, I have changed my position over the Katen lynch. It looked too easy at the beginning, but then Katen has continued to be consistently anti-town. And it is not unreasonable to suspect a gambit to protect their buddy. Trying to second guess scum's choice of kills with so little information is not likely to get us to the right place.

UNVOTE: Crash
VOTE: Katen

Consider my vote proxied to you Pasch.

I wouldn't do that. I may be confirmed town, but I'm not magically right. Vote along with me if you think I'm right.

@Finglove: I have some questions for you in my post #638. I'll post it here again.

So you don't want to see Katen lynch today solely because "they're too neatly giftwrapped"? Tell me:

1: do you read them as scum or town?
2: when do you think a Katen lynch is "the right time" if you're now reading them as scum?

Everyone should answer this. Townreads on Katen seem few and far between. As above, don't try to outguess scum. If Katen seems scummy, and they do, vote for them.

[Paschendale]

eh while i think saying katen is town because tn was NKed is a shit reason to think katen is town, i think katen is more than likely town via play

remind me why you think katen is scum

Shit arguments, unnecessary self-focus, not actually helping find scum at all. Katen has a very us vs them mindset, which makes sense for someone who knows who their allies and enemies are.

So far in this game, Crash, you've treated the truth as something that changes according to what you need it to be. And that's pretty much the biggest scumtell there is.

This. Oh so much. Also associative tells based on Katen wagon, but those are soft without a flip. CAN WE PLEASE GET A KATEN FLIP!?

zMM's huge wall is a townpost and I'm sold on PA again. I prefer Empty, but I guarantee I'll be around at deadline to switch if that doesn't go through. I won't be lynching anyone else unless it's to prevent another NL.

See? This is not a person with actual theories. This is a person trying to go with the flow and not stand out. Katen fights for nothing. Katen stands for nothing. Please lynch this.

[Paschendale]

Congratz!