Open 555 - Pick Your Poison (Game Over!)

[VictorDeAngelo]

The toast is poisoned.

VOTE: ToastyToast

[VictorDeAngelo]

Abel could be a while.

The answer I was hoping I'd get off you is that it's called RVS for a reason. It's random. He's used Random.org so if anyone questions his vote, he can't be held accountable for it, because he can just put it down to Random.org. Everyone else's vote was random but they still committed themselves to it. He didn't. That's scummy.

This seems contrived. When was the last time that players got called out for not being able to explain an rvs vote exactly?

Vote in 15 feels forced too.

VOTE: TSO

[VictorDeAngelo]

Victor everything is contrived this early and what he said wasn't such an uncommon idea that I didn't get where he was coming from, so it has it's uses. He tried to get two reads along with a slight suspicion on knife. But he flubbed it. Why you fumbled it is my question for you tso.

How is your post helpful in anyway victor?Voting someone for contrived reasons is essentially a license to vote anyone at this stage.

Not really, the fact is I think TSO is trying to force an early attack on skot over using Random.org and that's the scummiest thing I've seen thus far. Any particular reason why half an hour after your original post you felt the need to reiterate your point?

[VictorDeAngelo]

VOTE: victordeangelo to answer your question: I was processing my interaction with Tso and hoping someone might talk to me about my perspective. I formalized my question to tso that I hope will solve what is bothering me about the interaction.

'processing my interaction' - I think you might be overthinking the rvs stage.

Why did you ask that question?

Cause you seemed to read my post and half an hour later decided to question me on it, so I wondered why.

Oh the reason I asked you the contrived thing is because I realized it was scummy to vote people for contrived reasoning when the reasoning Tso used seems common enough from my perspective. It's not contrived if it's a commonly held view ( well it might be but tso didn't contrive it) so the question holds value as a way to get into someone's head . I've answered both potential posts you might have been asking about.

I just thought you were implying my post was unhelpful and that everything is contrived so it doesn't matter if TSO's reasoning is contrived.

[VictorDeAngelo]

just posting for the sake of posting

No rvs

Reply to knife: They're two different ideas I just wasn't clear where one idea ended and the other began, though they both argue the same thing.

My understanding of Victor's argument for TSO scum: Victor is arguing that TSO's argument seems contrived and that he is trying to push a mislynch. This 1: Implies you're town. 2: Implies TSO is scum. Basis of this reasoning? "Seems contrived."

This thinking is correct though your leaping quite a bit if you think I believe I've caught scum or towncleared anyone over a simple post.

1) Voting someone for contrived reasons at this stage of the game (the earliest point of day 1), when contrived reasons are the most common. Victor would have voted most people who make accusations at this stage, he says "not really" but all I hear is "Well, okay you have me there." I think that voting someone for something you could apply to most players (when most players are of the town alignment) is mafia motivated.

I need to vote someone, and I still think TSO's vote on Skot was bad. If your saying my actions seem contrived now, well welcome to the early game.

2). I thought about it more and realized that this particular reason of TSO's wasn't even really of his own making, it's a general idea that TSO thinks those with "experience" recognize as pointing to mafia. Thus, TSO's reason was not a reason of his own making, but he agreed with this idea as someone with experience, therefore, he didn't contrive it. Therefore, falsely accusing TSO of something he didn't do and voting him for it.

Huh? You seem to be saying that TSO's reasons are not his own, therefore I should obvious have known that TSO reasoning is not his own, therfore it is clearly a false accusation. I won't dwell more on this till TSO responds but this level of thinking feels off.

you might have a point and that Victor just didn't know. Still I pointed out that it gave less information to make a truly random vote than a vote that was unnaturally evenly distributed and I know from my own games a lot of people think that's mafia motivated activity. So either way you came to the conclusion, either through the idea of "responsibility" or by the idea of "not giving as much information as everyone else" you can infer that your vote at the time was probably more mafia-motivated than everyone else's from a general view point and you supposedly thought it would get a reaction as well based off what you've said. What did you think the reaction would be?

What if I told you I had never played with anyone here and I voted Toast for similarly random reasons? Would my rvs vote be equally scummy?

random.org says 12

vote cxinlee

No one cares if you used random.org? It seems this has stimulated quite a but of discussion, but my concern is more focused around the fact that it is really...random (lol) and unecessary.
Unecessary explanations, especially in RVS, are suspicious because it suggests that a player is trying hard to make sure that their actions are not looked at with suspicion. What benefit is there to tell us how you chose your random vote? Its random.

Yeah but is it an rvs vote this way really likely to be a scumtell? If Skot used rand.org and then gave a different reason would it still be suspicious?

I lean town on TSO's initial pushing of this point. I think I've played with TSO once before and remember him being relatively aggressive.

Was TSO town in that game? How do you know that TSO doesn't play aggressively in either role?

Not really, the fact is I think TSO is trying to force an early attack on skot over using Random.org and that's the scummiest thing I've seen thus far. Any particular reason why half an hour after your original post you felt the need to reiterate your point?

I think you are misunderstanding his argument...

PoC, are you referring to TSO or Knell's argument here?

Let me ask you and anyone else this. What in your mind is actions that scum do engage in day 1 more than not? Simple answers without engaging in detailed explanations are most helpful to understand what is in your view scummy. Thanks.

This is more of game talk, but since you asked: tells vary from person to person. I don't think there is any set formula to playing mafia. I personally am more of a gut/emotion player, and as such I focus on reactions, interactions, and motivation. As far as RVS itself goes, the scummiest votes are those defend the player before anyone has even attacked them. It is RVS and no explanations should really be necessary, and someone over-thinking that stage is suspicious to me.

Million Pound Question - Who would you say is overthinking this stage of the game right now (actually reading on, who aside from Sharpest is doing this)?

Reply to knife: They're two different ideas I just wasn't clear where one idea ended and the other began, though they both argue the same thing.

My understanding of Victor's argument for TSO scum: Victor is arguing that TSO's argument seems contrived and that he is trying to push a mislynch. This 1: Implies you're town. 2: Implies TSO is scum. Basis of this reasoning? "Seems contrived."

victor engaged in a vote and an accusation. I did not see an actual premise or argument, but sure, we can certainly infer that is his thinking. Now one can read a post as forced without knowledge of alignment, right?

1

Scum have alignment knowledge outside of any serial killer type, correct?

2

Does not making the vote imply suspect which ultimately is what we have. The only ones who know for sure right now who is scum are scum, right?

3

1

Nonsense, you can see forced reasoning simply by looking at the reasoning and saying "Hmm, this guy is trying a little too hard to justify his vote." In fact haven't you been essentially saying my vote on TSO has been forced all this time?

2

Why mention a SK here? Isn't a SK impossible in this setup?

3

Yes they are. So are you saying that anyone accusing anyone else of being scum is doing so because they are aligned with them. Cause that thinking makes zero sense.

I like Skot's responses in the rest of the post though.

fair enough on that point. A question though, is the aggression usually as "forced" with attempts to garner favor. If town, the "buddying" behavior seemed to remind me of a child looking for validation. "See this, am I right, tell me you see it to, right?" And generally that is the read on me at the moment. Especially as more information comes in. And then I would say the forced town to me right now comes off as, "I think I am right, I am going to show him and slam it down hard even though it is rather shallow. I

[quote[I think TSO's aggression

is

somewhat forced. But I don't think that makes it scummy.
As far as the question thing goes, I interpreted that on him trying to gauge reactions/stimulate discussion, and don't read it like you do in the terms of buddying.
Not sure what you mean on the second part. If I think I'm right, I'd commit to it but also try to convince other people?[/quote]

I don't agree with this thinking but the thought process here looks very townie.
The rest of the post does as well.

I'm getting early townvibes off both sharpest knife on tree and ToastyToast. Other people need to post more.

[VictorDeAngelo]

cxinlee posting is starting to bother me now. 47 is fluff, 48 is his first question and it's pretty routine (i.e. look at me I'm scumhunting, honest). His reads in 102 are explained with general reasoning. I want my vote on TSO till he responds but so for now it's

FoS cxinlee

.

vote: don_johnson

for lack of content.

How about instead you give us an idea when we might get some content off you?

I'm not answering that question M. there are plenty of things I will answer, but that is not one of them. Feel free to ask a different question.

I'm sorry but what's wrong with this question. Especially after the question you asked in 64? Your explanation in 73 makes no sense.

I'm not sure what to make of Abel. I liked his post 79 for town up until the point where he voted idk at the end. After the FoS on Skot on 69 and the first half of the post why did you vote a replacement here and not skot?

Reply to victor.
1. Simple posts are all I have in this format.

First if your gonna reply to details like this, can you at least put the original point your referring to up there as a quote. I'm guessing this first bit refers to:

This thinking is correct though your leaping quite a bit if you think I believe I've caught scum or towncleared anyone over a simple post.

At which point I don't get what your trying to get at here. I too have nothing more than simple posts in this format as well.

2. I understand where Able and Knife are coming from with their interpretation. But I don't understand your interpretation.

Again interpretation of what? If it's the TSO vote, I found posts 13 and 15 scummy as I said. His reasons for his vote were frankly bad.

3. I'm assuming this is you saying you were unaware of the underlying premises that are supposedly common here. So my second point is now invalid.

What underlying premise. That all Random.org voters are scum.

4. Your initial vote is unique because it was the first RVS vote. After the first, there is the potential of a player being voted twice.The reason the votes were evenly distributed is because it wasn't random, no one wanted to vote the same player twice. When someone is voted twice they're one more vote closer to being lynched.

What if I told you I would have still voted ToastyToast even if he had another vote on him?

This provides more information on the second voter and potentially leads to more information on the one being voted. The underlying premises that were common in my games and the slightly different version that TSO ran with are thus:
1) Scum don't like when information is released that could harm their win condition.

OK what information has been released that can harm the scum win condition through sharp's vote.

2) Scum don't like to take responsibility for their actions. It's not the specific instance of random.org being used, but rather in reaction to their first premise aligning with an event that leads to the construction of a second premise. Premise 2: Random.org voter voted randomly. Drawn conclusion: Random voter is more likely to be mafia.

So when was the last game when someone was held responsible for an rvs vote to the point of lynch.

5. Your reads are the opposite of mine so far.

We disagree on some reads (though not all so the opposite is a little misleading).

Yeah but is it an rvs vote this way really likely to be a scumtell? If Skot used rand.org and then gave a different reason would it still be suspicious?

I'm trying to figure out the motivation for telling us, and there is a possibility that it is scum defending themselves in advance. Obviously this is only one possibility, which is why I've been questioning Sharpened. No, it would not be suspicious.[/quote]

Fair enough.

To your other points: If I remember correctly TSO was town in that game (its been a while); unsure if he is always aggressive, but I think it is more town in general to play in an aggressive manner and try to get the game moving when it is that early.

I was referring to TSO's argument when I said I thought people were misunderstanding what he was saying.

Aggression tends to be a null tell IMO unless a player has a habit of only being aggressive with a certain role. It can also depend who their being aggressive towards. If TSO perceives skot as a newer player he may want to be aggressive to get a skot defensive.

That said I have also seen players be aggressive on new players for other reasons.

Other stuff:

@Evil

can you explain how your hydra works. Is that just that two players share an account or is there something more to it?

Not sure about Evil right now. 63 reads very self consciously and 76 is also off. If D is a new player what could be afraid of letting slip?

So suspicions of four players (TSO, Knell, Evil, cxinlee) and we still have no real posts off three players (RC, DJ and LB).

PEdit:

Victor, want to vote Toastytoast? Your million pound question and the fact he didn't think anything about me was particularly worth talking about is a pretty big contradiction.

VOTE: Toastytoast

It's true Toasty, I'm very lonely at this stage of the game.

Why are you asking me to vote Toasty? Aren't you scumreading me?

[VictorDeAngelo]

73. Makes perfect sense.

No it doesn't. You said that hypothesising over what you would pick as mafia would be bad:

It could give away information that could inform the mafia's night kill. I don't think anyone should answer that question.

How could scum have gained information about the NK from your response?

I didn't say I agreed with the premises, just that I understood them. Or else I would have voted along with TSO.

Is it casual statement Friday or is this a response to something in particular?

That's nice that you'd vote Toasty after another player had voted him. You should do that.

Why?

A second vote can make a player more aware of their mortality, this might make them start to give out information on themselves that better informs player's decisions about who to vote.

Yeah, cause players feels invincible with one vote and then suddenly start roleclaiming after two. Any chance you could link a previous game where something like this happened?

Sharp's vote gives less information, the player who gets voted by a random.org vote doesn't can't do anything about it, they can't argue an online vote, so they're like "Meh, It'll just go away when the player actually makes a serious vote" you also don't glean much from it, since you can't define a person as someone who likes to rock the boat.

The same is essentially true when players rvs through different methods.

I don't think you understand how an original premise works. Look it up on wikipedia or a dictionary.

Cute.

I might do the quote thing, it's just bothersome. You should know what I'm referring to, and you seem to have inferred it.

Bothersome perhaps. But it actually allows people to work out what your referring to rather than take educated guesses. It also saves me having to constantly look back between my original post and yours to work out what we are now discussing.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Make no mistake, I still suspect the shit out of you. But I want information first and I can worry about how people try to capitalize on my contradictions later.

Well at least your willing to admit your contradicted yourself. And yeah I still suspected you had a scumread on me.

Are you the type that won't vote without believing in something?

This literally goes against a ton of stuff I said to you. Please keep up.

Because you voted TSO, and if you're town there's zero reason to believe you had any chance of ever hitting scum more than random chance. I want to see if you're willing to follow through on your suspicions.

Are you trying to say I rvsed TSO now, cause not only is that not true, I'm hard pressed to beleive you think it's true at this point.

Do you think that this is odd of Toasty to avoid me? It's a contradiction, it's tangible, but you're more worried about what? TSO's "Bad" vote? Your vague suspicions that I might be scum? Vote him again later. You have time.

I'll vote for who I want, and I have no desire to vote Toasty. Deal with it.

[VictorDeAngelo]

"So when was the last game when someone was held responsible for an rvs vote to the point of lynch." <- This is why I don't really agree with either premise. I don't think using random.org points to mafia, it just probably shows that they think they're being ironic.

But this all started because TSO voted knife for his random.org vote - I'm now confused that you don't think knife's actions were scummy yet you equally don't like me calling out TSO for his attack on knife?

The mafia are looking for power roles to kill. Discussing power roles could give them hints as to who is and isn't a power role.

Person A: What roles would you choose as mafia?
Person B: If I were mafia I would pick innocent child, tracker, 1-shot cop.

Could you tell from this exchange whether person A or B is a PR?

I can't provide links to instances where a player has role claimed after having two votes on them, I've played one other game here. The fundamentals of mafia should be the same though. I play mafia in real life. The more votes, the more a person reveals about themselves in general in an attempt to get out of a lynch.

I guess I can buy the pressure argument but I still struggle to get the point, especially now you've stated you don't believe knife's vote was scummy.

You should vote Toastytoast because it provides information to the town. You asked Toastytoast who else besides Knife has been posting in the way Toasty said he found suspicious. Toasty said I said nothing that was of interest to him, when I clearly fell under that category according to your own statement. You don't think that's strange or worth investigating?

What info does a Toasty lynch provide us over any other lynch right now?

I'll let Toasty respond to the remainder of the paragraph.

This thinking is correct though your leaping quite a bit if you think I believe I've caught scum or towncleared anyone over a simple post.

This is what I took to mean that you didn't truly believe that you were likely to be very accurate with your vote on TSO.

Lack of certainty != randomised vote.

[VictorDeAngelo]

wow. you guys are long winded. I'm already skimming some of the longer stuff on page 2. only gut scum read atm is victor. TSO and knell read town early. Skot and abel I'm on the fence. gonna try pages 3-5. where the hell did my post go? I thought I was on page 1. I hate when that happens.

So what happens from townreading knell here to thinking that.....

I agree. that's why I am on victor. victor made a good point about abel as well which almost swayed me, but then the attack seemed to soften and the two seemed as though they were "scum slapping"(like two kittens, ya know... sparring, but no claws and no real 'intent to harm').

me and knell are scum slapping here.

town shouldn't worry about surviving as much as mafia should. we have the bigger team and can afford the deaths. my philosophy of gameplay is much different than most. I put way more stock in actions than I do in words. looking for "tells" always seems rather juvenile to me. I follow the "thin the herd" principal, and then look for connections and interactions. people put way too much emphasis on "reading".

p-edit: ok. so yeah. I think we agree. the idea of blanket labeling behavior as "anti-town" is not productive?

I disagree about survivalistic nature being anti-town. There are few situations where being mislynched is good and most players should want to make sure they are not the lynch.

RC's opening post looks good and his discussion with Knell seems fairly townie as well. Putting him in the town pile.

On the topic of lynching active players day 1, I feel that lurking tends to be a scummy trait and removing the inactive players is often a good step as it leaves less hard to read players in the endgame and encourages other payers to contribute. As an aside, perhaps we can refrain from throwing words like eugenics around willy nilly. Cheers. Also;

@Mod

- Are any players due a prod yet?

I have been easing off the accelerator. I could see the players struggling to keep up, which is why I haven't responded to Victor yet.

Well I'll just wait patiently I guess.

[VictorDeAngelo]

that's it, I can't do this anymore, fuck catching up.

you guys should really ask me questions if you want to know stuff.

Sure

tomorrow, I will post. Much to say.

What was the "much to say" here?

Catch-up halfway done, it's a big post.

What happened to the big post?

What are your feeling sharpest knife? If it's still a scumread do you have anymore reasons?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Shouldn't you reveal your alt name sharpest knife?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Peacebringer.

How'd you know that Knell?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Peacebringer.

How'd you know that Knell?

he looked at that other game-

That's one option....

[VictorDeAngelo]

Peacebringer.

How'd you know that Knell?

he looked at that other game-

That's one option....

being told it by mods would be the other, all irrelevant to this game.

Why would the mods tell Knell your alt identity?

This was not what I was thinking btw.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I just checked. I did the same with Mnenomic. I read previous games, but I don't know if it's effective toward reading people here. The reason I'm voting Toasty is because he has a defensive playstyle and I wanted to see how he would navigate my vote, while also seeing if Victor would be as conservative with his vote as his only completed town game would suggest he would be.

the 3rd is just comparing play with posting in other games and if you truly did that knell, impressive. I could not really hide my personality elements and certain frustrations or tendencies.

Still not what I was getting at, but I'm going to leave this. Thinking it through it's probably just the case that Knell sought out the other game.

apparently several people do based on some cultural expectations and inferences. Why add shtick to random votes? It is filler to add on the random. Interesting thing would be if I said "I pulled a name out of hate" it would probably generate the same response. Tell me, with such a reaction, how many truly scummy players actually act that way?

Perhaps this would be clear if I interpreted how these RVS votes sound:

"random.org is 12"--->"hey guys, there is no motivation behind my vote its completely randos plz don't attack me teehee."

"the Toast is poisoned."--->"I see some mold here, perhaps I should push it?"
"all evil must perish"--->"well that name catches the eye. I'll go with that."
"Post something"--->Not an RVS vote. I want Venrob to post something because I'm familiar with him.

"Cause no matter what he's in, I can't read him"---->"Lets get rid of this guy before he bamboozles us."

I find the two in red most suspicious. Yours is meant to cover yourself and Evil's has an agenda behind it.

Actually I don't need to read past this.

VOTE: Toast

Assuming I corrected your post correctly, explain what was so scummy about this that you don't need to read on?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Sharpest, have you played a Newbie game yet?

that is answered somewhere here...

Sorry,

I hadn't read through the thread at that point because of the Toast thing. I see that you are an alt and stuff now, so

forget about it

.

A new question for you, do you have any really outstanding reads?

I know it's early in the game, but

we really need more information in this game.

Otherwise we're all absolutely fucked because we're going to have to policy lynch.

Information = Good. So, you got any?

A policy lynch??? I see no signs that we're heading that way today, plus there's already plenty of information in the thread.

As odd as it is to say, ChriVi's abrasiveness reads town. A lot of scum are afraid to step on toes early on and this hydra has no such fear. However too much rudeness and fighting is antitown so it would good to hold back a little.

Goodness gracious. Can you stop, please? I just want to play Mafia here.

Evil is bad enough. I don't care "who is saying what". You both have the same slot. Please, I beg of you two, don't subject the game to this. I'm asking sincerely and politely. Just for this game, please? As a favor to me? It really distracts me. I already dislike playing as town enough as it is.

Or if we could at least compromise to where you two just "sign your posts" on an individual basis like Evil? If you can at least do that, I would be much obliged. It's easier for me to ignore it. The color thing is a real no go for me.

Something here caught my eye, but I need to do a read off RC before I comment (and it's too late now to start).

[VictorDeAngelo]

It makes sense to me.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Toasty, was 238 the interrogative wall post promised in 218?

1. Your vote has done nothing on Evil, he's not being more active because you're voting him. He isn't "continuing to be evasive" he's just not even here anymore.

But isn't continuing to be evasive also scummy? If a player gets a vote for pressure and responds by disappearing and keeping their head down, why should a player shift vote?

2. Victor tried to direct you to me first, so I tried to see what happened when I redirected him while checking to see if he's still conservative with his vote. I wondered about his controlling behavior. I am not trying to force you to vote me, I am saying you not voting me is scummy, given the extensiveness of your argument, and the fact that Evil has not responded to your vote. It's a dead vote.

Excuse me but I did no such thing. In fact you completed twisted what happened since you were the one who told me to vote Toasty. In fact it was post 107 where out of nowhere you asked me to vote ToastyToast despite it being clear I wanted my vote elsewhere. And you say your worried about

my

controlling behaviour, let's look at your next four points:

3. You aren't counter voting me. That's different from a "counter."
4. Yes, but everything you're saying says you suspect me more than everyone else. I understand that you're selective with who you counter vote as town. You've been selective, you've chosen, me but you aren't voting me.
5. Yes it does. It's not a counter, because there's no vote. Which is what I think you were trying to avoid.

Your questions being for other people still doesn't explain it. Why would you use that explanation for not voting me, but then change your explanation?

...which boil down to, your scum reading me but voting elsewhere therefore your scummy.

You've tried to represent me as someone selfish and egotistical. That's your characterization of me and I think you're doing it on purpose as scum.

Where has toasty done this?

Viomi, what do you want from me?
Knife, what do you want from me?
I've received Redcoyote's request to play more open and be a team player. What are your requests?
Both of you have openly stated your votes on me are for pressure.

How to diffuse a wagon (or at least attempt to).
1) Ask the voters what you could do to get their vote off you.

I'll follow your requests. In exchange, can I ask you for an interpretation of Don_Johnson for a moment? Personally, my original objective for changing my vote to Toasty, was to understand Victor, while also voting Toasty who I felt a little suspicion towards because of the double standard. I also wanted to see what Toasty would do, because of his defensive playstyle. Victor started to ask me questions to understand me. But in the middle of this Don_Johnson called us both a scum team. This bothers me. What do you think about it?

2) Deflect on someone else.

@Toast: So far the thing you've posted that jumped out the most to me was your interpretation of the early-game votes. Why did you include your own vote in the list? Why not mine? Why not Knell, who quoted my RVS post as his justification?

Um. No. The two of you seem to think I'm required to talk to everyone. I'm not. I found sharpest initially suspicious, and so I was questioning him.
I chose those particular votes because it was all I needed to illustrate my point. I'm so sorry if you feel excluded. I generally only talk about something if I think its something worth talking about .
But I think we can agree if that I had gone through every single random vote it would be a bit of a waste of time fore everyone. Yes?

this is what the two of you sound like with these: "WHY NOT MEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PAY ATTENTION TO ME IM SO LONELY "

It seemed like you picked the RVS votes to get the greatest variation of interpretation. In that case, I can understand why you may not have chosen to interpret mine, as it was fairly similar to Victor or Zeph's. But Knell's vote on me included a quote of my RVS post, so it doesn't really seem to fall under any of your given interpretations. So I was wondering if you really tried to interpret

all

of the posts to determine which ones were suspicious or if you just decided to push that Knife and Evil were suspicious and grabbed a few other RVS votes so it looked like you gave everyone a fair shake. I also wanted to point out that in addition to explaining why you thought two of the other RVS votes were scummy, you snuck your own RVS vote in as one of the "good" ones.

Can we move away from the rvs votes now. I think we've analysed them to death and there are better things to spending words right now.

I'm not sure what to make of Abel. I liked his post 79 for town up until the point where he voted idk at the end. After the FoS on Skot on 69 and the first half of the post why did you vote a replacement here and not skot?

It's still early in the day, and at this point we had almost no contribution from a good chunk of the players in the game. I already had a lot of content from Knife, but I decided to put a pressure vote on someone else. I chose idk because he had replaced in, which means he was likely active enough to come into the game and post (as he responded to a replacement request) than the rest of the players who had registered a few days before the game even began. And seeing how idk proceeded to post twice, both times with minimal content and promising to respond again by sometime yesterday without voting, I'd still like to hear a lot more out of him unless I get a really strong scumread off of someone.

I'm not sure I completely agree with the whole replacement are more active thing, but it's not as though idk has delivered much more after your vote I guess.

As odd as it is to say, ChriVi's abrasiveness reads town. A lot of scum are afraid to step on toes early on and this hydra has no such fear. However too much rudeness and fighting is antitown so it would good to hold back a little.

I don't buy it. ChriVi starts by saying "blue text is polite and people think it's pro-town, red text is rude and people think it's scummy". Followed up by cursing us out several times in red text. it doesn't help that Viomi wasn't quite as rude as the red text when posting in non-hydra form, and in post 199 ChriVi starts by telling us that both heads are the same person. Sounds like the "abrasiveness" is manufactured for the "show" of being a hydra. I wouldn't be surprised if ChriVi is set up so anything people think might be scummy could be brushed off as "oh the scummy head said that."

I have to admit reading ChriVi's posts it becoming unclear how many humans are behind the scenes but being hydra means it most be two people right?

An anti-town action is an action that harms the town's ability to achieve their win condition. This is opposed to pro-town, which helps the town achieve their win condition. In general, anti-town actions and behaviors are more likely to be practiced by Mafia, and pro-town actions and behaviors are more likely to be practiced by town, but there is no guarantee that someone who acts anti-town is Mafia, nor pro-town guaranteeing towniness.

With this in mind, consider that anyone who is town knows that they are town. If a townie self-votes it's equivalent to putting a vote on a confirmed townie, or a sane cop putting a vote on someone they got an innocent result on from investigating. Which is why I said it's one of the most "anti-town" things a townie could do. Townies acting anti-town on here is common enough that we actually have a term, "Village Idiot", which describes them. I don't see any way that someone who is town-aligned voting for themselves is anything other than anti-town.

Yes, I am well aware of such a "perspective" and it is all kinds of sketchy. Basically you described "group think." You prescribe a set of behaviors as "pro-town" and then all that does not fit your artificially and unnatural structure as antitown and proceed to designate an shame inducing term for those you want to label as straying outside the "artificial norms and rules" that you set up. As you just stated what you call anti-town can be done by mafia or not. All your "antitown" blah blah ultimately is, is something to give you something to pick at for reactions. It is in turn said reactions that brings illumination to a response that denotes evasion or engaging in scum-hunting method. Ultimately you believe the end result of the thread you are picking at. So, go ahead with your artificial designations, my upping my game will have nothing to do with "adapting" to that particular aspect. Oh and by the way, per Town and antitown standards your not attending to who has replaced in for whom is clearly antitown and really could be a "VI" behavior.

I think Abelcain was clear enough with what he meant here and reaction feels unfounded. His thoughts on the DJ self vote was well reasoned and explained and I don't think you designate antitown behaviour as "artificial norms". People will do stuff that hurts the town. This play is antitown. The only different is that scum do anti town behaviour deliberately and town do it by accident.
With regards to the DJ vote thought;

@Abel

- Self voting might be anti-town but why would scum self vote this way?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Victor, I've openly admitted I want them to move their votes to people they think are scum with reasons to back up their votes, instead of pressure voting. So, while I appreciate you taking the time out of your day to solve the mystery, there wasn't one to solve.

Did you read my post or are just ignoring all my points? Cause I don't think I went all Scooby Doo over the pressure voting thing.

[VictorDeAngelo]

UNVOTE: TSO

So much for the pressure. Knell you want people to vote who they find scummiest, well this is your lucky day:

VOTE: Knell

[VictorDeAngelo]

Waiting for people to catchup. Specifically idk, evil, don_johnson, cxinlee and TSO/Zeph replacement. That's around half the game. Come people people.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Waiting for people to catchup. Specifically idk,

evil

Evil's replacement, don_johnson, cxinlee and

TSO/Zeph replacement

Neil1113 and Maziek. That's around half the game. Come on people.

Fixed it.

That's how bored I am.

[VictorDeAngelo]

With regards to the DJ vote thought;

Did you intentionally stop writing here or did you forget to add another sentence?

The semicolon was for the next question. I needed the whole

@Abel

bit for visibility.

First off

/replace out

Don't you dare

Totally kidding of course.

phew

I caught up, even though probably skipped some walls.

Nothing much to say

chrivi is annoying, but town.

In your opinion why is ChrVi town?
Do you have any other town or lean town reads?

That's something no one else mentioned that I recall.

How does that make one town?

You need to include some context cause I have no idea what this is about.

@victor: You fosed me, then I responded and it disappeared, you never mentioned it again. What happened?

I never disappeared - I've been waiting for more off you. When did you respond?

Found it. Again please use people's names with quotes - otherwise no one knows where they came from.

cxinlee posting is starting to bother me now. 47 is fluff, 48 is his first question and it's pretty routine (i.e. look at me I'm scumhunting, honest). His reads in 102 are explained with general reasoning. I want my vote on TSO till he responds but so for now it's FoS cxinlee.

Explain a little bit more?

I don't know if I can. Fluff is fluff, weak questioning is weak questioning, unexplained reads are unexplained.

Like what you've done is say that my posts are easily capable of coming from scum, but you havent explained why my posts are scummy yet?

It's mostly just the fact that your posting seems to contain little attempt at scumhunting and appears to try look town without naturally doing townie things. In that regards it's similar the posts you've just produced.
First you say ChriVi town with no reasoning.
The question to no one feels forced - in the sense that I think you want to ask a question for sake of it rather than to gain any information.
Finally you say you've read the game but still no vote. No comments on any wagon. In fact a lack of desire to get your hands dirty as far as I can tell. So lets get some thoughts:
What do you think of Knell?
What do you think of Evil?
What do you think of lynching someone else toDay?
All in all the FoS is staying until I see something that convinces me you might be town and not scum trying to keep a low profile.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Which program would that be. ?

I don't know if you are being serious or not, but I will answer you as if you are. "Get with the program" is simply a turn of phrase that means they need to start playing this game.

I think he was joking.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Questions hidden in spoilers, that just makes things tougher here.

And then Victor comes in and jumps on where it looks like the easiest wagon of the day is going to go, on TSO. It's funny because the very things he accuses TSO of, (being contrived and vote feeling forced) is the exact response I felt from reading his post. (Post 20).

Of Sharpest, Knell, and Victor, I think I'm most paranoid of Victor after page 1. Sharpest responds because his post was on the one in question, and Knell was the one being asked the question, but Victor? Why?

I think we went over this enough in the following pages. If there's anything still unclear then feel free to follow up.

Victor posts, and not only does not push his vote anymore (on TSO), but neither furthers his suspicion on cxlee. Grr.

Both were barely posting. Can't comment much when there's mostly dead air.

Victor bothered me with his postings of previous matters that were already handled (C-Dawgs post questioning Toasty) rather then actually trying to provide a path for the town to go... BTDubs, totally recognized the coaching from you to C-Dawg.[/spoiler]

I don't see what your trying to say here. Isn't analysing and questioning other posts what supposed to happen. And where am I coacing C-Dawg (ChriVi right?) in this post.

Yep, makes sense why C-Dawg would suddenly read Victor as town, after Victor helped coach them the day before. Sigh. I'm really going to have to reevaluate you, though I won't be pushing a lynch on C-Dawg as of yet, because well... I really like their style. :/ Plus I have scummier targets, but the style thing is for realz!!!!

Sure, I'm town for a single post of coaching rather than all my other play.

Able has a too towny to be town feel to him right now... it bothers me. Maybe it's just my suspicions. I'm not sure...

Uh-huh, the old too townie scumtell. Never heard that before.

For Victor: Plus 10 Townie Points for mentioning Scooby Doo: here.

Lol. I would love it if I could make scooby doo references a valid towntell.

Vic, you were impressing me... until this post. While I appreciate you changing your vote, it seems way too little too late.

1

Not only do you take your vote off of a pressure vote (which you've had since the beginning of the game from RVS, and have gotten nothing out of) which

2

I've never seen someone feel "pressure" from 1 vote before, FYI...

3

but you ALSO decide to jump on the biggest wagon with literally, no case from yourself? Gah, you're making me upset. Just when I thought you were acting townish and even mentioning scooby doo, you go and mess my read up again!

1

I can't help that TSO would rather replace out than deal with me.

2

Well one vote is all I have.

3

ISO me, there's more than enough for a case on Knell among my posts.

Well. I've drawn this out enough I think.

So, I count 8 scum reads, (DJ, Red, Knife, Viomi, Toasty, Victor, Neil, abel).

4 votes and more incoming.

3 null reads and 1 town read from cx.

Who on my wagon or is suspecting me is scum?

Doesn't the bold mean you already have the answer to this question?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Using microphone on phone. Try it out see how it works. let's use a hypothetical let's say I flipped town. Who of the players currently voting me or have me in their scum reads is scum? Please use their posts to determine which one it is and explain why. At some point this is mandatory anyways. Knife should like this he is not really into this whole day one stuff anyways.

Was this supposed to be addressed to me. Well if you flip town and I'm here tomorrow I'll sort it out then (though as you pointed out two thirds of the game are scumreading you and there is almost certainly some scum in there regardless of how you flip given that sample size). But given how you prefaced this as 'hypothtical' lets assume this isn't going to happen.

Victor bothered me with his postings of previous matters that were already handled (C-Dawgs post questioning Toasty) rather then actually trying to provide a path for the town to go... BTDubs, totally recognized the coaching from you to C-Dawg.

I don't see what your trying to say here. Isn't analysing and questioning other posts what supposed to happen. And where am I coacing C-Dawg (ChriVi right?) in this post.

Gah, you're quoting ability is terrible. Next time use hash tags, much more trendy.

Hey my quoting ability is awesome. Now what are these hashtags you speak of?

I'll have to go over this again to see where I wrote my notes down because I'm getting ready to go out and right now I'm just too damn lazy. Judge me for it, I dare you. *Evil Glare*

*Evil Glares back*

But I have a challenge for you as well:

Yep, makes sense why C-Dawg would suddenly read Victor as town, after Victor helped coach them the day before. Sigh. I'm really going to have to reevaluate you, though I won't be pushing a lynch on C-Dawg as of yet, because well... I really like their style. :/ Plus I have scummier targets, but the style thing is for realz!!!!

Sure, I'm town for a single post of coaching rather than all my other play.

You show me where the satanist C-Dawg explained their town read on you other than that post with little to no content? And then you tell me what the REASONABLE assumption would be?

The town read came off the initial reads list, which given ChriVi is a replacement I'm willing to accept as a general read based on my posting up to this point. I think he reiterated his town read later in 254. I've seen ChriVi repeating itself (the revoted of Knell for instance) but I'm not entirely convinced that play in itself is scummy.

For Victor: Plus 10 Townie Points for mentioning Scooby Doo: here.

Lol. I would love it if I could make scooby doo references a valid towntell.

Screw you, Scooby Doo is a valid town-tell. End. Of. Story.

!

[VictorDeAngelo]

What the blue hell are you guys talking about???

Pedit: That's to Toasty and Knell - Knife ninja'd me.

[VictorDeAngelo]

RC - Toasty is voting Maziek currently. And if he's right about Knell just being at L-1 then there would be another vote on Knell somewhere. I can't find it but can you just double check the vote count for me.

Agree with people being more active, especially any of said people are being active in other games currently (I won't say more but you know who you are and I know who you are). I don't know if replacing them is allowed for not providing enough content in their posts though RC.

I find the whole VI argument off Maziek suspicious only if Knell is town. If he's scum I sense that his buddy would probably bus or failing that find an easier target than Toasty today. The fact Knell mentions his scumbuddies defending him right after Maziek defends him also feels like a good indicator that they not scumbuddies (though at his point it could easily be WIFOM I guess). ChriVi jump off the Knell wagon here might need to be looked as well if Knell is town. Still I think he's more likely scum at this point and should be the lynch today.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Yeah, I think your votes on Knell are the correct ones.

Hermy will have to comment on the whole prod/replace thin.

[VictorDeAngelo]

No scumreads cx?

[VictorDeAngelo]

For quotes

[quote] for quote

[quote="Dudesname"] for quote with name

[quote="In post ###, Dudesname"] for quote with name, number and link

Don't forget the close tag as well when you do it for real.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Anyway, cxinlee, we will be lynching someone today. If you like Knell for town, who would you lynch instead?

[VictorDeAngelo]

cxinlee do you have a convenient list of completed games somewhere? Or failing that your recent or scum games?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Ok I'm finding tons of ongoing games. Could you save me some time and let me know your most recently completed town game and most recently completed scumgame?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Yeah, I think your votes on Knell are the correct ones.

Hermy will have to comment on the whole prod/replace thin.

Nope.

Well which vote is wrong then? Cause a bad votecount is going to cause trouble.

Why do you think I'm scum victor? You never really touched on it.

Actually,

I

"touched"

on

it

plenty

of

times

already!

@cxinlee

- thanks for the games. I won't be needing any more for now.

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Victor, hmm. I don't agree with three of your reasons. Namely, everyone scum reading me, a post i made 30 minutes after and ignoring my explanation as unfeasible (especially because it was true), the other thing shouldn't effect the game any, telling people what I would have chosen as counter factual scum should be null related. It might give information as to how much I think about my decisions, and that was one such indicator, I decided before the game started not to speculate on it. I mean, as far as I can tell historically speaking, most scum teams picked an innocent child and banked on a 2-shot vigilante (who mostly always messed up). With the cop/track/jail keeper being a variable. I read a few of the older games to get an idea of the set up and ran into a player who openly discussed it in the game and people were pretty freaked out about it. 2 of the scum lied about what they had chosen, one scum told the truth. I think town lost that game.

Well there were no shortage of points so if you can only find three things to take issue with, then I think speaks louder about the case against you than anything else. As for the remainder of the post, once again I'm having trouble working out what your trying to say. I can see you disagree over the whole speculating over PRs issue, but really your trying to reframe what's being said here.

You had no trouble questioning evil about what was said pregame in 64. Yet when a similar question was asked back you became self conscious and nervous to answer. It doesn't look like a question any town would have any trouble answering. I certainly find it a stretch to suggest that answering the question would cost us the game.

I mean the thing that worried me is that it would inform the scum team's decision. They would know the history (assuming they were competent) so any odd exclusions (E.g., adding not vigilante) or any accurateness as far as the 3 variables, (tracker, cop, or JK), might give the scum team a clue as to who to kill. So I was against it.

This seems to assume both a competant scumteam and an incompetant townie turning around saying something like "I'm the tracker so that's in the setup". Even so no one was asked the question but you, and my concern is the hypocrisy surrounded your interaction with evil in posts 64-78.

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Victor, your defense of two of your points is really bad. There's nothing wrong with assuming incompetence or competence from your opponents and allies. The argument is no less valid, it's not some huge leap.

Right but you must realise that the actual scummy part isn't that you've assumed the competency level of anyone right? It's the fact that after asking a question about the pregame to Evil you then refuse to answer a similar question. And as I already pointed out ages ago, I'm having a hard to believe you couldn't have given a similar non self-conscious answer without any these assumption needing to come into play (especially since your now claiming you have given the question a lot of thought).

The questions from Evil and I are also very dissimilar in circumstances and planning. Mine had a tangible benefit which I explained and I had decided not to answer the question beforehand, while Evil had made no such decision.

So are you saying Evil's question had no tangible benefit but yours did, cause they seem to both be born from the same tree.

Self-conscious and nervous to answer assumes a lot more don't you think? I'm also not trying to "reframe" I'm explaining my reasoning which you misunderstood. This is twice you've denied my explanations out of hand in favor of your own view.

Yeah but you seem to be trying to change the case against you to something that you can knock down easier. The same way in which you addressed a handful of points original rather than response to the bulk. Not mention that you've ignored my calls to clarify 399 so I can work out what your referring to. And yes until I see an explanation that I can beleive you'll find yourself denied.

[VictorDeAngelo]

All players have responded with their roles!

idk has 24 hours to post or he will be replaced.

Please note I have updated the rules regarding timing of prods

Deadline for Day one is May 13th, 8PM PST

I'm happy but surprised.

Evil you haven't content posted since April 25th.

idk you haven't content posted since April 25th.

So maybe you too start playing the game again cheers.

DJ - You also need to post more. Your simply slightly less terrible than these two in the lurker stakes.

[VictorDeAngelo]

So after all that Knell was town.

UNVOTE:

[VictorDeAngelo]

Quite a bit to catch up on. First remember this:

Yo. I suck.

This is probably getting old, but I really would rather not be replaced out. Just kinda phone-posting here, but a proper post should come in about 2-2.5 hours. Sorry! :/

Cause idk forgot. And Evil has posted........... a FoS for both. In fact if no one does anything scummier it'll be a vote for idk since he's brought himself a few days from replacing out.

Sorry Knell, I just don't see your play as town this game. I, as well as others, have already (and successfully) laid out reasons why. We've stated our case against you.

So with that in mind, no. I don't plan on posting my full reads for your partner(s) to capitalize on and use to figure out who the most pro-town person is to kill. I won't entertain scum. Sorry.

Now that we know that Knell is town, care to share who you thought his scumbuddies could be?

cxin, and idk, we need to hear from you two as well. Your votes are currently for a no-lynch (not voting). Do you think a no-lynch best serves town? Why or why not? Also, if not, then place your votes on where you feel they need to be. Have you looked at the Knell case? How do you feel?

It's a stretch to say that their lack of vote is equivalent to a NL vote. Also given their combined lurkiness I find it odd you target them over their lack of vote over lack of scumhunting.

Knell, your reasons for townclearing ChriVi and Neil are bad.

@cxinlee

- Is one thing Neil really the only thing worth focusing on in the entire game? Any other players deserve your attention?

Still not feeling ToastyToast as scum. In fact looking over Neil and Maz's posts there doesn't seem to be much of a case on him.

I have to agree with Neil and Maz over don_johnson's re entry in the game but I want to see what he says in a full catch up before we make any decisions.

@Sharpest

- Now you know Knell's town, what's next?

So where to vote.......

VOTE: idk

[VictorDeAngelo]

I think I should dedicate a reread and a post to each of Neil, Toasty and Don_Johnson, and hopefully I can do all that today in the meantime:

Million Pound Question - Who would you say is overthinking this stage of the game right now (actually reading on, who aside from Sharpest is doing this)?

^ See the above. this is what I was talking about when I was saying victor was trying to direct Toasty to me. Toasty showed a belief that he thought those that overthink the early game are scummy. Victor already accused me of overthinking RVS. So it's fairly obvious what he's doing here. The million pound question went nowhere, when it wasn't answered and Victor seemed fine with it, but not fine when I didn't answer his questions. He side stepped the whole thing when I tried to get Toasty voted and instead focused on the past. Interestingly Toast accused me of trying to control votes, but didn't seem to care when TSO did it or when Victor did it either. but he was already sort of ignoring certain players in favor of other ones. So. Not really sure what to make of that.

Wait that was what you meant when you accused me of directing votes to you. The question is simply looking for a response but I ignored cause I read on and saw that he already answered the question in the post (the answer being skot). That's why I didn't prioritise following up.

VOTE: neil

You had no strong reads not too long ago. Explain your reasons for voting Neil here.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Looking through the Toasty ISO I still like him for town. He's been reasonable with his vote, holding off Knell (even going as far as point out he's lynchbait) where I could see scum going in for the kill. He has clearly been reading and analysing the game a lot harder than other players and if his only crime is finding Knell's play frustrating and misinterpreting his play as scummy then I would say every active player is pretty much in the same boat (well except Maziek who replaced in). I'm suspicious of some the points Neil has made but I want to look at him in more detail next.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Neil replaced into TSO slot. Catch up raised no red flags. The he starts playing the game...

351 he does hop on the Knell wagon when he could have gone after others and then calls for the day to end in 412. He also says he has two more scum pegged but when Toasty follows up he doesn't let on. Is Neil that confident of dodging a NK he doesn't need to share his thinking with anyone?

I also can't help feeling the 427 might be coaching a scumbuddy though that is null til we know idk alignment (though idk's lurkiness in this game is really looking scummy).

I can signs of him slow building towards an attack on him. He stated the odd suspicion here and there but he is not prepared to put a proper case against me, instead he's trying to get others to do it (Don in 427, Knell in 478). He also misreps cxinlee and idk by saying their advocating no lynch by not voting.

Then we reach the mountain that is 454. Mostly good actually save a few responses to Toasty. The thing that bothers is he picks up a few mistakes off toasty and tries to twist them into something scummy, while using null tells like the odds talk to pad out and then refuses to fully explain himself, brushing it off for post game.

That said he is right with his point about Don Johnson overlooking the soft claim. I'll come back to the wall after I have Don Johnson again (though given his lurkiness that should be quick by comparison).

[VictorDeAngelo]

Don Johnson -

Self vote is weird in 57.

Vote on me with no explanation is also bad in 123.

The whole defend yourself to Knell in 272 is off as well. Then he doesn't push his scumread of me when Knell says he's paranoid (which is odd given I'm the only scumread he has at the time).

The whole putting Knell to claim range after admitting he saw Knell softclaim a PR seems weird too but come to think of it, DJ doesn't say which PR he saw Knell claiming and if he thought Knell was scum it kinda makes sense. From that perspective I see what he is getting at in 473.

I can see the reasons for his irritation in 484 as well. Stil it seems to be a little bit of ott.

Back to Neil's 512 (this time with context).

OK so I see where the paranoid comment arrives from. Paranoid isn't that big of scumtell to me. Neil repeated use of the word friend when talking to a scumspect is though. Surely if Neil thought DJ was scum and DJ is coming hard at him it wouldn't look so hands off would it.

I can also think of a very good reason why scum would fakeclaim a particular PR they knew to be in the game. Particularly in Knell's position.

Then he calls out the vote as coming with a "no-case-needed" attitude after Don literally laid out his reasons. Which Neil even quotes and responds to.

VOTE: Neil1113

I don't want to let up on idk. The guy is lurking his ass off here and he isn't doing it in other games. That in itself is scummy. But I think I have to agree with Don wanting to lynch Neil here.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I admit, I'm voting Neill because he's dodging and pissing me off

Although I agree with your vote right now, these reasons are weak sauce.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Huh?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Well yeah there probably was, I'd have to look back to be sure. If you have more questions fell free to ask.

What are your current thoughts on Don\Neil?

[VictorDeAngelo]

How is Don not lynched yet after I just literally proved he's scum? Why is there any discussion even here?

Then he calls out the vote as coming with a "no-case-needed" attitude after Don literally laid out his reasons. Which Neil even quotes and responds to.

You might want to reread my case there buddy, I never said Don had a no-case-needed attitude... this reeks of you reading my case specifically to paint me in the light of scum, and not to actually get a read on me. The only motivation I could see you doing that, is if you know I'm town already (fyi, meaning you're scum.)

Your right, after reading several Don Johnson quotes I miss attributed the cxinlee quote to DJ. That mistake is on me. As for the rest of your post however:

After your entire read posted, you have quoted and responded to more scum-tells on Don than me, yet you vote me? This reeks of distancing to Don. Calling someone scummy who's your scum buddy but not actually putting any pressure on him with a vote in case he does get lynched and then you'd be out a scum partner...

Let's get the theory section out the way first. Scumhunting is hardly a simple quantifiable act. Just cause I can list five things I find scummy on person A, and then perhaps only a couple of things on person B does not automatically make person A scummier. Simply put not all points are created equal.

And yeah, I see your attempts to get Don lynched here as scummier than what Don has done. In fact I think Don hit the nail on the head when he called you manipulative.

1

Explain to me the bolded text in my case,

2

which it appears from your posts that you're going to have to actually read it again without the intention of painting me as scum and with no bias,

3

and then tell me again how Don is not scum?

4

Or how I'm scummier for exposing scum?

5

And don't try to WIFOM yourself out of answering by stating we're partners... that would literally make no sense.

1 - With regards to bolded points in order they appear (any more bullets will get silly so you'll just have to place them with the appropiate point) I thought I mentioned this but there is a clear reason why scum would choose to claim a role in the game. Furthermore no one is disputing what DJ did but the interpretation and that is what your applying here, but choosing the scummiest context you can think of.
2 - Oh cool, mid sentence mudslinging.
3 - Don could be scum, but right now I'm more convinced in your scumminess and I don't see you bussing someone here.
4 - Don't we need a scumflip first.
5 - What?!?! Why would I be accusing you and Don of being partners at this point. That is just a ludicrous attempt to try to put out a bad idea and attribute it to me.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Sigh, this game is just going become a long list of prod requests at this rate.

I would love for the idk slot to provide more content before lynching but the deadline is approaching and we probably won't have more time. Anyone wishing to lynch anyone but Neil should probably get their cases in now, otherwise I say we get a claim and close this day out before it goes down to the wire.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Requesting prod of Maziek and Chrivi

We're here.

Incorrect. The phrase we were looking for was "we're here

and we're ready to provide useful content

". Please do something before the deadline.

How is reread coming? Neil is at l-1

that should tell you right there, right now Neil is not scum, too easy a runup...

Not to /barn everyone else but where do you see Neil's run up being so easy?

especially with replacement and lurking central going on

Well yeah, but with so many people not posting, it would be pretty difficult to get reads with more significance than random chance. I find Neil's over defensiveness really scummy, and his reactions haven't made them town reads like yourself and Knell did.

Hold up, when did Knell's reactions make him a townread to you? Because I don't remember saying anything at the time other than maybe he's VI.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Looking through the ISO I can see you saying Neil is town and that he's being easily run up but I can't see you showing any real examples of how that's happening. In fact other than the odd "Neil is town" or equivalent I can't see you really towncasing him. At the very least if people were running him up without reason why aren't you calling people out specifically for this?

[VictorDeAngelo]

UNVOTE:

I'll come to this game in the morning.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Hey everyone in light of neil's revalation I'd like to ask the entire town a question. This game is called "Pick Your Poison". In which the mafia may pick three powers to be randomly distributed to the town. If you had to pick three powers, which would they be and --->WHY<---. The reason I'm bringing this up is because I don't believe neil's claim.. So everyone, if you were scum and you were going to give town three powers which would they be? The possible powers are...

Innocent Child
Tracker
1 SHOT COP
JAILKEEPER
2 SHOT VIGILANTE.

Me? I'd pick innocent child because if a player is forced to get into the position where they'd need to use it it's probably because they're not a strong player. (Exhibit Knell).

The other power I'd pick is 1-shot cop. Yes a cop claim can be strong but it's only a one shot.

The other power I'd give to town is the 2-shot vigilante. I'd give town this ability because of the potential to have the shot's backfire.

I would not pick either jailkeeper or tracker to give to town if I were scum but I want to hear what everyone else thinks about this.

Your predecessor asked the same question.

Anyway if I was scum I would pick IC, Cop and Vig.

I would've chosen the IC, Tracker, and 2-shot vig.

After all that stuff earlier and now...sigh.

Just for your FYI, if anyone is a JK/COP, Neil fake claimed most likely.

I don't know if it's worth it, to out yourself (Maybe JK should, COP definitely should not, without using his/her investigate first)

That out of the way, we are indeed not lynching Neil today. So Don, who's scum now that you've gotten your "second!" town flip?

There's no need to out any roles yet. If Neil is fakeclaiming it will be obvious soon. Cop will out themselves after investigating, vig will be obvious after shooting. If we get neither then it's Tracker/JK/IC.

Also with Neil not being lynched today and the deadline tomorrow let's talk about who to lynch. I'm going for cxinlee - his posting has been pretty bad today. If I wasn't in so many games right now I'd give you more. For now

VOTE: cxinlee

[VictorDeAngelo]

FYI does nobody else catch this? This is absolutely terrible play! Vic went for the known absentee (IDK) a while back and somebody called him out on it but he slipped by, and then he does the same thing? We only have a little over a day left with the deadline, and he decides to place a vote on somebody that nobody has really pressured / wagoned and on someone who's not even really been talked about today? Instead of pursuing one of the candidates that are actually available to be lynched? I say we lynch Don today, when he flips scum, I'll die tonight, so you'll have two confirmed power roles (one dead) to work off of, which gives scum only 1 power role to fake claim if they are going to try that. Then tomorrow, you guys lynch Victor for his terrible play.

Actually I pressured cxinlee quite a bit today in case you skipped over reading the thread.

Also take note of Don and Victors actions / reactions (or lack of) between each other. When Don flips scum today, Vic will pretty much be confirmed scum for tomorrow. That leaves 1 other scum somewhere in this game. Keep your eyes out. I'll be submitting my night action in tomorrow, though I doubt it'll be of much use.

Nonsense there's been plenty of interaction between me and Don today.

Don probably did a good job. /: Really, I doubt he's scum because based off of research, his priority is survival not outing power roles.

I would like him to give his reads. Before we go forward, but I'll be hanging around it case we need to quick lynch, as I don't know when dead line is.

Deadline's today. 8pm pst. That's less than 24 hours but it would be good to try and let Don post final thoughts before hammering him.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Victor, was your vote yesterday a policy vote, or did you think I was scum?

I think your scum. You've kept a low profile and spent large part of yesterday not scumhunting and for the longest time did not have any scumreads.

I am town, neil claimed tracker, able cain town, knell confirmed town- reione, cx and red coyote the other there. I would think 1 scum of those 3 at most.

1 scum at most? Why so many town on town wagon in your opinion?

Wait what? Abel's dead, but me and Knell are both left alive? I wonder if they're fishing for the third power role... If that's the case, I imagine they left me alive to frame me. You know, kill two birds with one stone, blah blah blah....

How does an Abel NK frame you exactly?

I think they are ridiculously stupid which makes me wonder if there's nobody really... experienced on the scum team. I honestly thought I would hit gold with the inactive list, so I targeted Maziek last night (or Loofah, or RachMarie I suppose), and she didn't target anyone last night. Also, I was wrong on my Don read, I'll be the first to admit that. Though with Don's subsequent knowledge of power roles and his fishing, Don looked helluva scummy, can anyone really argue with that?

I can and I believe I did.

Victor, was your vote yesterday a policy vote, or did you think I was scum?

I agree and I still think this was a terrible place for Vic to put his vote. He not only tried to pursue your lynch, but also IDK's. In fact the more I think about it...

Didn't you track an inactive player last night because you thought you might hit gold.

I can't see him being town with his anti-town play, and his longing to not be helpful toward any of the main lynches. It's almost like he pre-supposed their alignments... Then against Toasty ending yesterday with a no-vote (or in other words, staying off all of the wagons) doesn't make me feel much better either. I don't have a good feeling for Vic or Toast, but I can't say that they are the most scummy people. Anti-town /= scum unfortunately.

The only major wagon I was not 'helpful' towards pushing was Don's. Sorry for not helping you lynch town.

I am town, neil claimed tracker, able cain town, knell confirmed town- reione, cx and red coyote the other there. I would think 1 scum of those 3 at most.

Neil could be scum who claimed tracker, and we don't know your town. Why did you exclude so many other players?

This is a really interesting post. How did you narrow it down to that group of people? And why are you so quick to ignore the possibility that neil fake claimed Tracker?

FoS:Sharpest knife.

Also neil, whom did you track and why. I'm really curious.

EBWOP: Why are you so quick to agree with Sharpest's speculation on us those three?

On the other hand this post by Reinoe is pretty bad. Reinoe why the FoS and not just vote?

EBWOP: Why are you so quick to agree with Sharpest's speculation on us those three?

Because I'm hard strucken to believe that scum was not on that mislynch wagon at all. And with Toasty and Vic off, I'd presume the third scum would have to be on the wagon. I don't agree that Sharp is confirmed town at all, but I agreed with the concept.

Curious no one else has yet picked up on the fact that sharpest said at most one scum was among those three and Don said at least one was in the three.

EBWOP: Why are you so quick to agree with Sharpest's speculation on us those three?

Because I'm hard strucken to believe that scum was not on that mislynch wagon at all. And with Toasty and Vic off, I'd presume the third scum would have to be on the wagon. I don't agree that Sharp is confirmed town at all, but I agreed with the concept.

But you never even challenged Sharpest that we don't know he's town. You just jumped to us three. Now you're realizing that you forgot to include Sharpest in that mislynch pool.

VOTE: Sharpest Knife On Tree

Great point against Neil... so why the sudden sharpest vote?

Toasty is equally confusing. He's questioning a lot of stuff that's already been explained and looks to OMGUS Neil.

There's no reason this kid should even be alive right now. He would have been a much better wagon than Don, and looking back, it's pretty apparent. I tunneled on Don and that cost me a mislynch, it won't happen again. Goodbye Toasty.

Toasty's not going anywhere.

But don't worry, neill's not today's lynch. We're going to let our vigilante shoot you tonight.

Toasty, could you vote Sharpest knife?

Why are you assuming a vigilante in the setup?

BTW, in case people haven't figured it out, I'm the 1-x cop.


My investigation landed on a townie, but the neil/sharpest interactions today are enough to convince me that they're scum.

Care to share your result?

VOTE: Toasty

Sheeping Neil cause he's smart.

So your only real thought today is to sheep the guy who so far has only pushed mislynches. You're useless.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I'm VLA. Back in a few days.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I am alive (and now playing on Firefox). I will try to catch up today or possibly tomorrow.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Jesus between trips and outages it's been like two weeks since I looked at this game. I'm gonna take it a page at a time and see how much I can do (unfortunately this isn't the only game I need to catch up on).

I don't see full scum motivation for that claim out of reinoe either here. If it is, it is quite the gambit with a possible vig out there. As if there is a vig, and if it was me I would "confirm" by vig the 1 shot cop so have the clear confirmed view and know for certain the alignment of the other. Now if scum did not choose vig this gives them confusion and chaos.

I don't understand the logic you're using. What you're saying is...

"If I were vigilante I'd kill the PR who claimed without any pressure over the person who claimed a PR to avoid a lynch on himself".

And if there is no vigilante then obviously neil is telling the truth. Scum cannot foolishly allow a tracker run wild. That's to town's benefit. I already said I'm fine with neil not getting lynched today. Scum may be wanting to frame him for a mislynch but that's obviously not going to work now.

You're operating under the assumption that I'm fake-claiming one shot cop in a brazen gambit. That's a leap of a faith and a bizarre one at that. It's kinda looking like you're flailing here. But I'm not going to spend all day trying to argue with your logic.

I actually see what Skot is saying. If there's a vig it makes some sense to shoot the role with no usable shots left over the role that has usable shots left. That said the vig could just shoot a scummy looking vt tonight and prove themselves that way.

@victor: You asked me some questions...:

Why are you assuming a vigilante in the setup?

I'm assuming vig in this setup because of the high probability of backfire potential. Scum almost always choose vigilante as a role to give to town. This makes sense because the role can backfire and people wil be afraid to shoot townies.

The reason I ask is there's neither a claim nor a extra death last night. And given your lack of suspicion on Neil (who would have to be scum if you are town and there's a vig in the setup) I find this a little odd.

Care to share your result?

I

tracked

ToastyToast. I'll give you reasons why in my next post. This one's getting a little long.

You tracked him? Trackers track but cops investigate.

And the result was innocent?

@victor again:
You suspect cxinlee of being scum. Do you still feel that way today?

I do at the time of writing this response. Let's see if cx can do anything to convince me otherwise in this catchup.

So your only real thought today is to sheep the guy who so far has only pushed mislynches. You're useless.

I pushed a mislynch?

Not unless you changed your name to Neil when I wasn't looking.

neil, who did you track?

Unquestionably believes neil's tracker claim even though if neil's scum he had every incentive to fake claim to prevent his own lynch.

I am town, neil claimed tracker, able cain town, knell confirmed town- reione, cx and red coyote the other there. I would think 1 scum of those 3 at most.

Unquestionably believes neil's tracker claim even though if neil's scum he had every incentive to fake claim to prevent his own lynch.

It is called Vote analysis. I was simply looking at the on-voters and how scum would be likely to vote. Sure, Neil could claim tracker but for now I believe him. Not going to go fishing a lynch there at this point.

Finally shows some sort of doubt but only after much pressure. But still believe's neil's tracker claim even though if neil's scum he had every incentive to fake claim to prevent his own lynch.

Oh cool you repeatedly the same point with different quotes. That way it looks like there's a large case on skot. Why would believing an unCCed tracker be scummy? Sure he could be lying but since we have only three claimed PRs on the table why not assume this?

I don't see full scum motivation for that claim out of reinoe either here.

If it is, it is quite the gambit with a possible vig out there. As if there is a vig, and if it was me I would "confirm" by vig the 1 shot cop so have the clear confirmed view and know for certain the alignment of the other. Now if scum did not choose vig this gives them confusion and chaos.

He doubts my cop claim even though I had no reason to out myself except to benefit the town. If neil's scum he had every incentive to fake claim to prevent his own lynch. Why the double standard?

I don't see scum motivation tends to be code for him townreading you FYI.

Still unquestionably believes neil's claim, even though if neil's scum he had every incentive to fake claim to prevent his own lynch.

Remember where you pointing him to doubting Neil's claim like two quotes earlier.

I don't see full scum motivation for that claim out of reinoe either here. If it is, it is quite the gambit with a possible vig out there. As if there is a vig, and if it was me I would "confirm" by vig the 1 shot cop so have the clear confirmed view and know for certain the alignment of the other. Now if scum did not choose vig this gives them confusion and chaos.

Tries to claim that if there's no vig it creates chaos. No it doesn't. If the PR's are Innocent Child, Cop, and Tracker, the scum are shooting the tracker tonight because it would be crazy to let him run around. If there is no tracker and there's a vig, then the vig is shooting neil tonight because he fake-claimed a power role. Simple.

Not simple - how would a vig know Neil fakeclaimed and you didn't.

Not really, the fact is I think TSO is trying to force an early attack on skot over using Random.org and that's the scummiest thing I've seen thus far. Any particular reason why half an hour after your original post you felt the need to reiterate your point?

Can you go into your "real" reason for this post? I'm interested in the "trying to force an early attack on Skot" since it presupposes TSO is scum. Using the reasoning that scum might have motivation to start an early attack.

Seriously, you want me to go over something that happened on page 1. I can't bother to look over out posts at the time but we must have gone over this at length remember all our back and forth. I don't know why I need a "real" reason for the post, it seem pretty straight forward. I believe I was responding to your question.

Why did you ask that question?

Cause you seemed to read my post and half an hour later decided to question me on it, so I wondered why.

Why did you actually wonder why? What were your suspicions?

Cause it seemed like you were too hesitant. Scum need to think before they act. Town can be reckless. It's not a solid tell or anything but it seems reasonable to pressure for it. For all I knew you and TSO could have been scumbuddies and you were wondering whether to defend of not.

This is more of game talk, but since you asked: tells vary from person to person. I don't think there is any set formula to playing mafia. I personally am more of a gut/emotion player, and as such I focus on reactions, interactions, and motivation. As far as RVS itself goes, the scummiest votes are those defend the player before anyone has even attacked them. It is RVS and no explanations should really be necessary, and someone over-thinking that stage is suspicious to me.

Million Pound Question - Who would you say is overthinking this stage of the game right now (actually reading on, who aside from Sharpest is doing this)?

I would like an answer, who besides me(and Knife), was over thinking at this time in the game? What were you hoping to gain from the question?

More questions later.[/quote]

FFS we definitely discussed this. Am I going to have to answer dumb questions on everything in my ISO. I can't remember. I can't be assed to look back. I'll get back to it later if you remind me.

UNVOTE:

If there's not another counter-claim that proves Reinoe is lying, I'm required to believe him. Which means that leaves a good amount of people confirmed town. Which also means that with the 1-shot cop done with his shot, and Knell being a useless power role (by useless, I mean his power role has no power in it at night except for being confirmed town during the day...), that means Toasty is confirmed town also. Which means I owe Toasty an apology, and I need to rethink my view of everything. However there is one person that has always tinged my scumdar since Day 1, and to this point has not shaken off my concerns.

VOTE: Victor

As of right now, even with the brief reread I've done, Victor is my best bet here as to who I think is scum. I don't really think Sharp is scum unless Sharp is buddying up to me, which I don't think as scum Sharp would play that way personally... maybe I'm biting into the bait? I will say, I don't like how many people are not voting right now. I feel we've had a good amount of time before the site went down to play this day, and even after It's been several days. We have to get back into this game, or risk losing our grip on it and having multiple people check-out. I can't deal with any more replacements...

#(*$&$#*@)#(

This was me by the way. Shannon's computer won't let her log in right now so she's been PMing the mods on mine to figure out how to get it to work. I didn't realize she was still logged in.

I forget your reasons. Did you ever explain why you tracked Maziek. Is that role still scum?

Also why haven't you responded to Toast's questions in 721?

Let's do it.

VOTE: Rachmarie

because reasons???

[VictorDeAngelo]

I think neil and Knell's L-1 status should be included.

Unofficial vote count for when Knell was at L-1. Hey look at that, neil is in the so called, "ideal position". The only thing that saved Knell from a mislynch was his conf-town status via IC.

Knell (6) - RedCoyote, Sharpest-Knife-On-Tree, VictorDeAngelo, neil1113, ChriVi, Don_Johnson
ToastyToast (2) - Knell, Maziek/rachmarie
Maziek/RachMarie (2) - ToastyToast, ChriVi
RedCoyote (1) - Evil/reinoe


Not Voting (3) - idk/SquirrelGirl, cxinlee, Abelcain

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch

Didn't you just say that L-2 and L-3 were both ideal positions. Why pick up on Neil but not ChriVi here?

Unofficial Vote Count for when neil was at L-1. Red Coyote and myself are in the so called "ideal locations".

neil1113 (6) - don_johnson, cxinlee, VictorDeAngelo, reione, RedCoyote, ToastyToast
don_johnson (2) - Sharpest-knife-on-tree, neil1113
ToastyToast (1) - Maziek/RachMarie
VictorDeAngelo (1) - Knell

Not Voting (3) - idk/SquirrelGirl, Abelcain, ChriVi

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch

Can you clarify if your townreading Neil, because this sort of analyse assumes you are but the rest of your posting suggests you still believe there's a good chance he's falseclaiming.

Unofficial Vote Count For When Don_Johnson got lynched. cxinlee and Red Coyote are in the so called "ideal locations".

don_johnson (7) - Sharpest-Knife-On-Tree, neil1113, reione, Abelcain, cxinlee, RedCoyote, Knell
ToastyToast (1) - Maziek/RachMarie
cxinlee (1) - VictorDeAngelo
Sharpest-Knife-On-Tree (1) - don_johnson

Not Voting (3) - idk/SquirrelGirl, ChriVi, ToastyToast

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch

Personally I don't believe in the "ideal locations" theory, but if someone does believe in it then...

You should tell that to whichever Reinoe wrote 746. In fact why spend a whole singling out positions to then basically say you don't value VCA anyway.

Red Coyote, neil, cxinlee, ChriVi should all be suspects too.

Yeah this whole post is making no sense.

I have a real problem with Sharpest's vote count analysis. It looked so low effort while at the same time looks like he's trying to do something. It was a lazy copy/paste job to me. I don't know how he could have missed doing neil and Knell's L-1 status lookups if he really cared about that theory since the only thing that stopped those lynches were power role claims.

I sorta agree on the sharpest point but something is really off with the rest of this post. Clarify your thoughts on VCA for me please.

I'm here.

Also, that vote count analysis looks extremely bad for Red, though through his play I never had him on my scum-dar. I've always kinda just assumed Red was town by his play, when he did play. I agree that with the Don flip (and even with the Don suspicions) he was playing way off, which I attributed it up to Red being a possible scum partner with Don. When Don flipped town, it only seemed to help confirm the Red spot for me. I'd like to hear more from Red's point of view, and I'd also like to hear from Victor whenever he gets back. Right now, Vic is without a doubt the most scum-filled slot I have in my notes. CX I have nothing on really in my notes, and him sheeping me makes me feel slightly concerned, but not enough to develop a certain read. He apparently has information that could benefit my read on him sheeping me later.

If I'm so scummy where's the case. There wasn't really anything for me to respond to as for as I could see in your last post.

My vote on victor is because on his push on me. His response to my question implied he was sure I was scum, yet he isn't pushing for my lynch , and is hardly pressurising me at all. I think its fake.

The irony is I have pressured and pushed far more than you have pushed/pressured me (or any other player in the game right now).

More later.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Ewww that formatting...

Yeah, sorry about that, I completed fooked the quote tags. I think you got which bits were mine but if anyone is having trouble then I will redo on request when I'm less rushed.

1)I simply forgot to include ChriVi from the first Unofficial VCA.

Well I can accept that answer.

2)I think neil fakeclaimed, but I see no point in pressing the issue since it will all be sorted tonight.

Unless there's no vig in the setup.

3)I don't value VCA. But I'm showing how it should be done, or at least how I expect it to be done, with some sort of effort. It's like doing meta read on a player based off one game, when in reality a meta read should include multiple games, which is a lot of work. Most people don't bother putting in the work that a proper meta dive requires. Segue into...

4)I don't see how "This Whole Post" is making no sense. RC, neil, cx, and ChriVi (remember I forgot to include this hydra earlier and you were complaining about it) were all in the "Ideal Position" slots. If Sharpest actually cared about his VCA analysis he should be suspicious of all those players. Again, I don't see how it's hard to understand but I'll be happy to continue clarifying as long as my patience holds.

5)I think VCA is garbage, or at least how Sharpest did it. I only did what I did because that's how I expect it to be done, and I also think my method gave more insight to the town.

I guess the bit they made no sense was the way you were doing VCA and yet simultaneously dismissing it's value. Still I would like to explain what you meant about ideal positions in the post I mentioned if you don't value VCA.

Victor, was my defending you from the lurker accusations a mistake? Are you really scum? I'm only asking because I'm trying to be as open as possible, offer clarifications, asking people to clarify their reads, and all it's done is lead you to questioning my motives. I'm starting to think that maybe your push on me is an attempt to sow discord against a player who's trying his best to assist the town. Scum have a motivation to create paranoia and I'd like to keep that to a minimum.

Lurker accusations? Is that meant to be a joke. I've been one of the most active players in this lurkfest of a game. I too have done all the things you've stated. If you feel my questioning is out of line then your obviously free to call me out on it. But as far as I'm concerned motives are important in scumhunting. Why is player X doing this, and is player Y gaining more out of this as scum or town are questions I often find myself asking. I won't lynch a claimed tracker or a claimed cop at this point since we have no reason to doubt the lineup. But at this point I don't see a reason to townclear either of you and call it a day.

Also where is this supposed push on you. I don't think I've actively pushed your slot since Evil occupied it.

For example in your post 859, how try to make a point of how I accidentally typed "track" instead of "investigate".

It's looks odd. Irrelevent if the setup is {tracker,cop,vig} but worth noting if we get another claim.

Or how you subtly try to insinuate that I was hiding my cop result even though I clearly said that I would explain in my next post.

But that's weird. The first I'd do if I was cop would be out my result. I don't see why you need to heavily justify why you picked Toasty, and I expect cops to use words like innocent and investigated rather than tracked and then omit to the result (though in hinesight the lack of vote should have been a giveaway). But as I said without a CC it doesn't really matter right now.

Then you follow up with 862 and try to question nearly every aspect of my unofficial VCA. FYI, that's why I'm not pressuring neil even though I'm crazy suspicious of him, there's nothing to be gained by talking endlessly about it.

I read the post and it raised questions, so I asked them, what more can I say. You seem to be keeping a lot of suspicion on Neil even though you have no reason to really doubt his claim. The fact you called sharpest out repeated for believing the claim seemed to surprise me.

I find you bringing up why I'm not continuing to pressure neil suspicious.

I didn't do anything of the sort. There's no mention of you not pressuring in my posts. All I'm attempting to do is clarify you position on a player. I can't help if I find your posting unclear.

If you think I'm being insincere or fake come out and say it.

Oh trust me, I have no problem calling people fake or insincere.

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Red: I'm sure some of what you say is true, but that doesn't really excuse you from anything.

Fair enough. Let's vote another lurker though since that's all you have and I'm here now.

I wonder which lurker he'll choose.....

Me too. And I hate to say it but, even though I want Sharpest lynched, I don't feel good about Red Coyote because he's been on every bandwagon.

If you're solely voting me for being on the don wagon, what do you say to the fact that I tried to stop that wagon up until the last two hours of D1? Other players were attacking me for having a don townread during D1. I tried to get Knell lynched instead (he became an IC), I tried to get neil lynched instead (he claimed tracker (likely a fakeclaim, imo)), I tried to get you lynched next, but by that time people had stopped listening to me.

At this point I reckon VOTE: VictorDeAngelo is our best alternative given that don called him out yesterday. I suspect Victor was buddying up strongly to Abel during D1, and the evidence to this can be pointed out.

I didn't even have to edit this further. There's literally nothing between RC defending himself against jumping on wagons for poor reasons and then jumping on my wagon for poor reasons. So yeah instead of a lurker it's me.

And why because 1) Don suspected me. Let's check back DJ's posting:

Suspects me and Knell to be a scum/scum slapfight.
Oh then he townreads me in 461.
Then in 636 he says" don't rule out an RC/Victor/Maziek scumteam." - So I guess this is him calling me out. Your name is literally next to mine.

2) I buddied Abel yesterday. And where exactly did DJ call me out on this again?

[VictorDeAngelo]

@RC - Other than jumping off my wagon do you not have any other response to 866?

[VictorDeAngelo]

You know me though, I like to look at everything available to me.

For someone who claims this, there has been very little of that going on, including the recent discussion. Now granted I was off on DJ for playing against reported trends and self descriptions. I also see no case making from RC. A look at his ISO really involves adding on to cases made by others and then jumping said wagon. He really has not made much of a case. He has however, voted Victor originally. He has not made much of case in so doing, which seem contrary to someone so disturbed by the ChiVri schtick.

Yeah, pretty much /barn this.

So should we get the JK to out or not?

I vote nay, with a hint of scepticism that there is a jk in the setup. Though this was probably sorted out days ago.

Vote: Victor

I am surprisingly okay with lynching any of the lurkers.

Oh come on, this a terrible reason to be on my wagon. I'm not lurker. I was V/LA.

@Knell and Squirrel: Why RachMarie/Maziek and Victor over cx and chrivi in terms of lurkers?

For me it was because he had more votes on him. On a personal read basis I have no particular vibe in favor of one over the other. The sheer fact we're debating between 4 lurkers (5 since Reinoe wants to toss in Red too) pretty much says everything that needs to be said about this game and fills me with sadface thoughts.

Seriously ISO me. I'm insulted by the notion I am lurking in this game.

@Squirrel/Reinoe for/against Jk claim?

I would be fine with it, but would also be fine with choosing a lurker, forcing a claim, and lynching them based on the claim. Both would serve a useful shake up purpose for the game at this stage I think.

Three PRs have claimed. What exactly do you expect a lurker to claim at this point?

@everyone on the Victor Wagon: Could all of you please restate your cases please? I don't like this wagon but I'm not blind to the possibility that I'm missing something.

I don't have a case, I just ant to flip someone who I don't think is town.

Since I lack reads on most of the game my vote is exceedingly fluid right now.

You don't have a case but you don't think I'm town. Your gonna have to do better than that.

For everyone saying that Victor is lurking could you all switch your votes to RedCoyote since Victor was on VLA.

I want to see Victor become active, at least as active as Red, before I would do that. Also, if he did that Red probably wouldn't be my top lynch desire considering the rest of the players and their activity.

So post activity matters....(wait for it)...

I don't care about past activity.

... and there's the inconsistancy.

catching up, and my case was my previous post

No it wasn't. Please provide a case cx.

I think I'm finally caught up. I need to sort my reads but it's too late now and there's tomorrow. I can't decide whether I want my vote on RC, SG or cx right now....

VOTE: Squirrel Girl

[VictorDeAngelo]

Three PRs have claimed. What exactly do you expect a lurker to claim at this point?

You're saying you absolutely believe all of the claims?

My main point was lost but I didn't like the way you said you wanted to force a claim and then lynch them off it, since there's a high probability of the remaining players being vt. Why can't you just actually find something you think is scum.

You don't have a case but you don't think I'm town. Your gonna have to do better than that.

No I don't, the lack of thinking you are town is a perfectly valid case to lynch you over.[/quote]

Maybe I'm doing this wrong. Try completing this post:

"I don't think Victor is town because...."

And please don't feel the need to skimp on the detail.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Well that Rach wagon was a fun distraction. Now we have about two days to lynch and ChriVi and cx continue to lurk.

@Mod

- Prods for cx and ChriVi please.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Well that Rach wagon was a fun distraction. Now we have about two days to lynch and ChriVi and cx continue to lurk.

You're voting me currently, and I'm voting ChriVi...and I'm voting ChriVi for the same logic that you said was scummy when I applied it to you.

I feel as though your trying to make a point here but I can't for the life of me work out what it is.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Well it's half eight in the night here. I'm tired and there's a few people I'd rather lynch ahead of ChriVi but I don't think I can convince in a couple of hours to lynch them. I'm gonna eat some apple crumble instead.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Anyone around?

[VictorDeAngelo]

I appreciate the response. Alas I was hoping for someone I wasn't trying to lynch.

[VictorDeAngelo]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RedCoyote

I think we have better options than a compromise vote on a lurker, particularly seeing how the ChriVi wagon has come out of nowhere.

[VictorDeAngelo]

So we definitely have a vig + IC. Agree that anyone claiming jk or cop should do so today. The vig could claim anytime before lylo.

So without Knell and Reinoe in the mix we are not far off PoE right. Gonna take a reread today or tomorrow.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I currently have a scumread on SG. Why do you think she's town Knell?

[VictorDeAngelo]

So ChriVi spent the game going after conftown's so not much there. There is a vote on Maziek in 370 which could so some townpoints for Maz/Rach there.

Interesting that ChriVi didn't interact with Neil much or even put Neil in her reads in 200. The other player he seems to ignore is cxinlee. So for starters I won't to look there.

VOTE: AGar

[VictorDeAngelo]

UNVOTE:

I'm in favour of a massclaim. I honestly don't think the how will matter much.

I don't think much will happen until we complete it.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I'm claiming vt. No clue where the order is but frankly if there's a cc for Red or anyone else they can just say. Given how dumb it would be for scum to cc at stage I reckon not. Red, Knell, Reinoe for town. That leaves close to winning.

As dumb as what Rach did, I don't see that as the kind of derp move scum would make. I'm moving towards lynching Skot today.

VOTE: Sharest-Knife-On-Tree

[VictorDeAngelo]

I know scum fake townslips but I can't really see scum faking like that. It's attention grabbing and reckless and I think scum might not try anything too risky in this position. I also think scum would be quicker to back down in this situations and try and instead Rach followed with a vote.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Sigh, good game. Well done town.

[VictorDeAngelo]

For those wanting explanations N1 kill was attempt to hit a more dangerous power role. I'm kicking myself looking back at the QT because RC and Reinoe were the two choices I had after Abel. C'est la vie.

As for Toasty I basically praying hard that he was actually the vig. If he was I had one less mislynch to manage (otherwise basically needed every single unconfirmed vigged/lynched before me after Neil's death). If I shot an unconfirmed and hit vt it was game over. Otherwise Toasty being vt left everything to do.

I think we lost this on the ChriVi lynch, which seemed to come out of nowhere a little. Don't know why ChriVi didn't just let themselves get replaced out. Kinda wish Neil had helped at least try and prevent the lynch as well (although other than that he was an awesome scumbuddy ). Once ChriVi was gone I had a feeling this game was heading towards a town win. Credit to RC for vigging me over skot last night.



I'm happy to share the mafia QT as long as Neil and ChriVi agree.

Also cheers to everyone who replaced in and also to Toasty/Knell/Sharpest for also sticking with this game.