Open 561: Farmer's Market (Game Over)

[hayatoBL]

Actually, I've asked to replaced out because I was impatient. But it seems Mod hasn't read it yet.

So please cancel that replace out.
And I'm V/LAing until the 8th. If you don't allow it, then replace me out.

VOTE: innocentvillager

[hayatoBL]

giving the fruit to the guy below would be dangerous to town, if by chance one mafia is below the other mafia in the list.

We should think about this some more.

[hayatoBL]

i'll be giving my fruit to hayato.

that said, let's get some posts up.

post 16 is a go.

unvote, vote innocentvillager

I'm not buying it.

You're quick to agree with the 'giving fruit to the guy below'. Scum with The Bulge are you?!

VOTE: don_johnson

[hayatoBL]

VOTE: don_johnson for strategizing. Clearly mafia WIFOM lynch this scum please.

Aha! A Newbie early-bussing his partner is it?

PEDIT - Well, one scum below the other scum is advantageous to scum, if we do the 'give the fruit to the guy below'. the top mafia does the killing. the bottow mafia just pretend to have received fruit.

[hayatoBL]

oh okay I see.

[hayatoBL]

It's probably a good idea after all.

Anyways, I'm on V/LA for the exams. Though I still want to play. So see you guys later....

[hayatoBL]

Instead of making it compulsory for everyone to give fruits, why not make it optional.

That way we have something way better than two no-night kills: Information.

[hayatoBL]

@TSO & Bulge

Have you really made some thought on what would have happend if we let people optionally give fruit? If so, why doesn't it make any sense?

[hayatoBL]

@Aronis

Instead of making it compulsory for everyone to give fruits, why not make it optional.

That way we have something way better than two no-night kills:

Information

.

[hayatoBL]

@TSO & Bulge

Have you really made some thought on what would have happend if we let people optionally give fruit? If so, why doesn't it make any sense?

Assuming you mean go with the list order plan but don't make it mandatory...
1) It's a waste of fruit for people who do decide to give.
2) It only works as process of elimination and gives us nothing conclusive.
3) It is incredibly easy for mafia to work around it (ie, take turns killing)
4) It won't stop any night kills.

We're making it compulsive.

1) If Scum kills that Night, those who give fruits can't be scum together. One scum is confirmed in the group which didn't give fruits.
If Scum don't kill, we have prevented a Night Kill, *without* giving as much fruits. Those fruits can be used until N4 or N5.

2) Your plan does not give us anything conclusive either.

3) Elaborate please.

4) It could. If mafia doesn't have the balls.

[hayatoBL]

And yes, I mean to go with the list order.

[hayatoBL]

You're right if there is one mafia left, we're *absolutely* going to make it optional. Let me do some more thinking....

[hayatoBL]

Siveuere: in the mean time why the bulge?

[hayatoBL]

I really meant we still use the list. We can also reshuffle the list if we want. Which means, everyone is assigned to whom they should give the fruits. But whether they want to give it is up to them.

These are the two extremes if we use my plan.

Scum kills during N1, where everyone gave fruits. (Confirmed-scum caught)

Scum No-Kill, where no one gave fruits. (Prevented a No-Kill without using fruits)

Anything in between is also good.

Scum kills during N1, where 6 gave fruits. (one conf-scum in the three. other seven can't be scum together)

Scum No-kill during N1, where 6 gave fruits. (Prevented a No-Kill without using as much fruits)

And with the fruits spared, we can continue with the plan until N3 and N4. Not just until N2.

[hayatoBL]

6 people give fruit. One scum kills and did not give fruit. Two other town also did not give fruit.

Among the three (scum + two town) there is a confirmed scum.

Among the

seven

(my mistake) six who gave fruit, any combination of two people from this group can't be scum together. And that is 15 possible scum teams eliminated. Do this from N1 to N4, we'll have *tons* of info by LyLo.

[hayatoBL]

About your plan, not quite. Any two where one gave fruit to the other CAN be scum together because the first kills and claims giving fruit to the second.

Yep.

But your plan has this problem also.

[hayatoBL]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TheBuldge

@TSO and Aronis
Are you also voting for me to further your plan or is it because you think I'm scum? If it's the latter why?

[hayatoBL]

I'm not voting you to "further my plan", I'm voting you because I think you are scum. Where did this assumption come from? Your plan makes it easier for scum early-game, so I think you are scum. It's that simple.

Normally, if you think a person is scum, you would want to push for his lynch don't you?

I'm not pushing for his lynch, I'm pushing my plan.
Also, isn't voting for me based on only this also dependent on playstyle instead of alignment?

This is nothing but OMGUS.

I never said, I think you're scum though.

[hayatoBL]

A combination. I thought you were scum because I don't think your plan is optimal to ours, but on second thought, I'm not sure that's really a scumtell.

And I'm assuming you are still unsure. Please do tell us when you are sure.

[hayatoBL]

These posts are 10 posts apart. Going from "Why the Bulge?" to a vote and then immediately making a case against me.

I never made a case on you.

No you don't, Siveure does. You're piggybacking off his logic.

I never said I agree with his logic, either. There's two votes on you, but only one of us thinks you're scum.

I simply......sheeped Siveure.

[hayatoBL]

Just because hayatoBL is stupid doesn't make him Scum. As long as sometime before the end of the Day he agrees with the correct Fruit plan, nothing is gained from lynching him based on a mistake about the best way to handle the set-up.

Just because most of you disagree with my plan, it doesn't makes *me* the one who's stupid.

[hayatoBL]

I'm going to make an exercise for you guys to show the effectiveness of my plan. This is probably my last straw. If still no one sees it, then I'll stop trying.

[hayatoBL]

It is Day 4! We are in LyLo! There are 5 players left, two of which are scum, Surviving players: A,B,C,F and G. Dead players: X,X,X,X,X,X (not important)

D1, Town decided on a list. People should give fruits to the right.

List D1: A,B,C,X,X,F,G,X,X,X,X

Results after N1. Players, whose fruit wasn't received: A,B,X,X

Town reshuffle the list. People should give fruits to the right. List D2: B,X,F,C,X,X,G,X,A

Results after N2. Players, whose fruit wasn't received: C,G,X

Town reshuffle the list. People should give fruits to the right. List D3: C,X,B,G,F,A,X

Results after N3. Players, whose fruit wasn't received: F

Now is D4. Who is scum?

Answer: One player is conf scum. Two players are conf town. Can anybody tell me who is conf-town and conf-scum?

Hint: F is not conf-scum.

[hayatoBL]

BUT WE'LL HAVE CONF-TOWN AnD SCUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Man, I give up. We'll do it your way. Whatever. I'm still not stupid.

[hayatoBL]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: mathbandit

@Mathbandit. Who is scum?

@Siveure
Why isn't the buldge scum anymore?

[hayatoBL]

Anyway hayato your example doesn't actually make sense. For instance, we have 7 people in that list N3 and 5 people D4. One died, sure, but where did the other go?.

One was killed and one was lynched. The guy next to the lynched-guy then gives fruit to the next guy.

[hayatoBL]

Welcome Bins...

This is getting to be really obnoxious. Can we just stick to the unfailing fruit plan?

I'm somewhat confused.

You voted me for promoting a "bad" plan.

I insisted on the "bad" plan.

You unvoted me.

But you still think my plan is "bad".

Why unvote me if I am still promoting this "bad" plan.

or why vote me in the first place if you thought promoting a "bad" plan isn't scummy.

[hayatoBL]

And I declare my vote as serious.

[hayatoBL]

Well everyone has the chance to give their opinions on my plan. I accept that my plan won’t be used. Though I think it’s still a better plan. Tonight, I’m giving fruit to mathbandit (or formerfish in case math gets lynched).

FormerFish : Hey! You again...

@Hayato- every plan has a loop hole in it, if not then this wouldn’t be any fun. The chance that scum are paired up is very low, and it looks like you are trying to stall. And I hope your vote on Don was still RVS. And then you legit use an RVS vote as evidence of scum (nice attempt to discredit Bulge by calling him a newbie btw)…

My vote on don was an RVS-vote. I never really believed that I caught scum-team page 1. And I never used that as an evidence to get The Buldge lynched.

Only too then, within 3 posts where you pose a scenario, answer it yourself, and change your opinion, decide that maybe the scum busser has a good plan.

Like I said, it was an RVS vote.

Your idea of optional fruit giving is horrible, and you should probably see rope for suggesting it. You seriously think that getting the info off 2 night kills would be more beneficial than 3 whole days of discussion?

Not information from night kills but from the fruits-received. Basically it’s eliminating possible scum-team. Eliminating enough scum-teams can get you conf-town and conf-scum which I have proved in Post 76.

Your vote on Bulge is bad, and you should feel bad. If you don’t think Bulge is scum, why are you voting him?

I sheeped Siv. My vote on Buldge was an empty vote. Siv’s voted the Bulge and claimed to have a reason for it. So not having a serious vote myself, I decided to put my vote on the buldge and see what would happen.

No one said you are stupid, projecting a bit?

Someone did. mathbandit.

I am baffled by post #94 by the way. Did you really declare you vote as serious this late in the game?

My other votes were for serious

reasons

, though were not with the intention to lynch.

My vote on math was not for the intention to lynch *at first*, but then it was. That's why I needed to declare it.

RVS has been over for quite some time, and you’ve made other serious votes, why is this one more serious than the others?

If you noticed, I was busy explaining the plan which I thought shouldn’t take a while. And my other votes weren’t with the intention to lynch.

Why is it serious: at first it wasn’t (again a sheep vote). But then math said:

Vote: innocentvillager

Inactivity + not being observant about the set-up/role mechanics.

which I think he is forcing it. Feels like it was an appeasement to my vote and question.

[hayatoBL]

Sorry. Just read 4 vs Siv. But too tired too analyse everyone.

But Siv lynch is a good lynch, I think. I will elaborate next time, when I have the time.

[hayatoBL]

Actually, I have no time for this game. I have time to answer questions, but not enough to analyse posts and figure out people's alignment. Sorry guys. It'll hurt my allignment if I keep playing. And I'm sorry if I sound obnoxious with the plan. I hope you people will play with me again next time.

Sorry, Robocop, I'm replacing out.

Though, here's some explanation:

Well, this might sound strange, but it's true. And I think, I have to come clean. I feel bad while I'm writing it, but town have to tell the truth so...and I'm pretty sure I can think of a much safer story if I'm scum.

Well after I sheeped Siv on the buldge's wagon. This come out:

Sure. But our plan has less holes elsewhere for them to exploit this - if someone dies either the person above them is scum or scum gave fruit to one another. Like, your plan relies on scum mis-stepping to be better than our plan tbh. I don't think this is a good assumption to make. Hmm. You know, I can't actually see whats wrong with it right now. Dangit. I need to go way more in-depth...

I don't like how his opinion changes in mid text. "Your plan has holes." "Hmm...let me think." "Actually, your plan is OK". It feels like buddying. I don't know how else to describe this. Probably, the term "good cop, bad cop" fits here.

He says the other plan is better. Fake a thought process. And then says my plan is better. So that I feel happy....

And then I decided to sheep him again on math this time and see what else he will say. But this time I read math scum also. So, yeah scum read on Siv and math.

I'm not voting Siv, now. I'll let my replacement make a better judgement.

Town feels on IV. He town reads me, while all others were scum-reading or null-reading me. And his reasoning for it was good.

Keep an eye on Aronis. He knows, posting a bad plan is not allignment indicative but jumped on my wagon instead of opposing it.

Look at fitz's questions. Are they really useful or are they there for show.

Formerfish's aggresiveness is town. But it can also mean an attempt to open the lynch pool as wide as possible. You guys be the judge.

Formerfish: Last time we played together, I never asked to be replaced out. Baezu misinterpreted my message. So don't go and meta-read me now.

[hayatoBL]

I'm not voting you to "further my plan", I'm voting you because I think you are scum. Where did this assumption come from? Your plan makes it easier for scum early-game, so I think you are scum. It's that simple. This is nothing but OMGUS.

I'm not pushing for his lynch, I'm pushing my plan.
Also, isn't voting for me based on only this also dependent on playstyle instead of alignment?

So you're voting without pushing for a lynch? Instead, you're pushing your plan? Why exactly aren't you trying to lynch him if you think he's scum?

Separating playstyle (what a player would think, regardless of alignment) from alignment (what the player is doing because they're town/mafia) is pretty much the whole point of mafia, and thus any argument where mafia can bring it down to pure-playstyle (theory questions) is ideal for them. So I think trying to bring the game to playstyle dependent stuff (like which night plan is better) is suspicious.
Voting for you is based on how you did your vote on hayato. Your vote looked like "he's proposing something suboptimal, he's scum" with no real thoughts beyond that. The fact you're pushing the superiority of our plan and not anything else related to hayato, while still calling him scum, is bad.

About your plan, not quite. Any two where one gave fruit to the other CAN be scum together because the first kills and claims giving fruit to the second.

Yep.

But your plan has this problem also.

Sure. But our plan has less holes elsewhere for them to exploit this - if someone dies either the person above them is scum or scum gave fruit to one another. Like, your plan relies on scum mis-stepping to be better than our plan tbh. I don't think this is a good assumption to make. Hmm. You know, I can't actually see whats wrong with it right now. Dangit. I need to go way more in-depth...

I was asking if I could self-hammer to deprive town of info not to replace out. In the PM's title I wrote 'I'm gonna chicken out'. A bit misleading..I would say

[hayatoBL]

I've screwed with the quote, sorry.