Open 566: Murder on the Oriental Express (Game Over)

[RoyalApe]

VOTE: Mr Blonde, sorry I missed your birthday. Have a belated b-day vote.

[RoyalApe]

Generally players that hand out reads for seemingly arbitrary reasons get the stink eye from me.

Fair enough but I rarely find reasons to suspect people other than arbitrary ones so prepare to give me a lot of stink eyes.

I hope this isn't the case. It isn't that hard to find at least semi-legitimate reasons to suspect players.

I don't like this response. It seems to indicate that it is OK to find arbitrary reasons to point to in order to justify a crap vote.

I generally like to see real reasons myself, it gives more to judge players by, both good and bad. If Duckling isn't going to provide reasons for his suspicions - ok - it will just make it harder for me to trust him.

[RoyalApe]

VOTE: Mr Blonde, sorry I missed your birthday. Have a belated b-day vote.

Thanks?

Any opinion on what's happened thus far?

If farside had sat on the vote for the reasons stated, I would definitely be reading scum there. As is, I'm willing to believe it was used to generate discussion.

Chaos jumping in with a farside vote seemed like he was trying to jumpstart a wagon, so I'm reading it as scummy.

[RoyalApe]

A.F.F. is probably my best town read so far.

The first few posts that I really noticed from her seemed like she was just trying to appear to be participating as I saw her throwing questions out and I felt she was trying to mediate more than participate in the discussion itself.

Now that I see her reacting to some of the responses with her opinions, I'm feeling better about her.

[RoyalApe]

I have no idea what's going on.

UNVOTE:

I'll give this a try tomorrow.

I feel like this is a Towntell

. I know I definitely felt this way just before my posts in this game. Would scum be less likely to say that they were confused? I dunno, I feel like Town are more open about how they are feeling.

I couldn't disagree more. I also find it odd that you'd consider this a Townie post.

I thought it was an odd read as well. By itself, I think Jogger's post is null, just a bit of frustration.

Skelda's post is scummy to me because I'm reading it as "hey, this is a townie, I know because I felt the same way". In other words, I'm reading this as trying to get town to subconsciously think Skelda is townie without having to outright state "Hey everybody, I'm town, please move along elsewhere".

[RoyalApe]

Following up on my last post where I state that Skelda sounded scummy, I did an ISO on him and I like everything else that I read. Back in the null pile.

[RoyalApe]

Because I don't think going into them now will help the town.

Here's how I like to look at it. Each of us is working on the same puzzle, but some of us find different pieces at different points. By providing what pieces you have(as little as they may be), you could provide someone else with the missing piece they need to put together a more solid case.

I really like this post. Encouraging town to work together is good. Assuming we see the same contributions from him that he is asking for from the town, this helps me read Acryon as town.

[RoyalApe]

Generally players that hand out reads for seemingly arbitrary reasons get the stink eye from me.

Fair enough but I rarely find reasons to suspect people other than arbitrary ones so prepare to give me a lot of stink eyes.

I hope this isn't the case. It isn't that hard to find at least semi-legitimate reasons to suspect players.

I don't like this response. It seems to indicate that it is OK to find arbitrary reasons to point to in order to justify a crap vote.

I generally like to see real reasons myself, it gives more to judge players by, both good and bad. If Duckling isn't going to provide reasons for his suspicions - ok - it will just make it harder for me to trust him.

I think this may just be an issues of definition. Arbitrary means without reason, and I said with reasons, so it wouldn't be arbitrary. I think the ultimate point is that I think even a suspicion based on

something

legitimate is good, even if it may not be the strongest case in the world, because at least that little something can get us somewhere.

I agree with that. Arbitrary probably isn't the best word there, but I took issue with saying "semi-legitimate" reasons should be given to support somebody's case.

The way I read that sounds more like something somebody would tell in a private scum chat. In other words, go ahead and accuse random people, you can find something to use to support your case, it isn't that hard.

That said, everything else that I've read from you tells me that you probably wouldn't slip like that if you were scum.

[RoyalApe]

@dryfit: do you agree with what Toby/duck feel about acryon?If so why?

No. I have acryon as being pretty null right now.

RoyalApe, who is scum?

No clue yet. Who do you think is scum?

[RoyalApe]

Generally players that hand out reads for seemingly arbitrary reasons get the stink eye from me.

Fair enough but I rarely find reasons to suspect people other than arbitrary ones so prepare to give me a lot of stink eyes.

I hope this isn't the case. It isn't that hard to find at least semi-legitimate reasons to suspect players.

I don't like this response. It seems to indicate that it is OK to find arbitrary reasons to point to in order to justify a crap vote.

I generally like to see real reasons myself, it gives more to judge players by, both good and bad. If Duckling isn't going to provide reasons for his suspicions - ok - it will just make it harder for me to trust him.

He is saying he hopes it's not the case how is that equal okay?

I believe you are misreading my statement. I didn't say that acryon said what duckling was doing was ok at all.

I said that it seemed to make it sound like using "semi-legitimate" reasons (I called it arbitrary) was ok. I think that statement sounds like supporting the use of weak evidence to support an argument.

Acryon has since responded and I clarifed as well.

I have no idea what's going on.

UNVOTE:

I'll give this a try tomorrow.

I feel like this is a Towntell

. I know I definitely felt this way just before my posts in this game. Would scum be less likely to say that they were confused? I dunno, I feel like Town are more open about how they are feeling.

I couldn't disagree more. I also find it odd that you'd consider this a Townie post.

I thought it was an odd read as well. By itself, I think Jogger's post is null, just a bit of frustration.

Skelda's post is scummy to me because I'm reading it as "hey, this is a townie, I know because I felt the same way". In other words, I'm reading this as trying to get town to subconsciously think Skelda is townie without having to outright state "Hey everybody, I'm town, please move along elsewhere".

Frustrated?
Okay.....

I'm not sure what you are referring to here by "frustrated?"

[RoyalApe]

A.F.F. is probably my best town read so far.

The first few posts that I really noticed from her seemed like she was just trying to appear to be participating as I saw her throwing questions out and I felt she was trying to mediate more than participate in the discussion itself.

Now that I see her reacting to some of the responses with her opinions, I'm feeling better about her.

Out of curiosity, in which posts was I trying to appear to participate, and how did they differ from the participation level of others around that time?

My read of you was through ISO and I wasn't trying to compare your participation to others. Everyone participates differently, so comparisons don't do anything for me.

What i was looking at was I originally just saw you asking questions of others but not submitting your own opinions.

My ISO showed you giving opinions on what others were saying, so you are now giving us something to judge you on.

I'm getting a good tone read from you.

[RoyalApe]

Dry-fit, SnugglyDuckling and Royal Ape would be my scumpicks, based on discussions they picked out for themselves and how they responded to them. And I'm leaning null-scum on Amy and Skelda.

Care to elaborate on your scum picks? What about the discussions that were picked out leads you to this conclusion?

[RoyalApe]

UNVOTE: all

I'm reading blonde as town, so I'll get off that RVS vote.

All of the ISO reads this morning are reading good (acryon, blonde, far side, duckling, dry fit, Toby) to me or null (jogger, astinus) for lack of content. I think the ISO reading isn't working for me yet this game as I'm losing track of interactions between players. I plan to reread from the beginning once I finish the last several ISOs. Until then, back to work I go.

[RoyalApe]

A no lynch will most likely hurt town in the long run, and we're approx. halfway through the day right now. At the moment votes on various people are going something like 4, 2, 1, 1, 1, so we have many small/ish wagons. I'm not a fan of any of the non-voters (not including Royal), because right now votes would help move the game along, and talking without voting is a pretty good way to avoid too much attention. For example if any of the people who were called out for something but don't have any votes on them had provided a vote in any of their posts, they'd probably get scumread by some people.

Did you count the votes yourself or are you just very in tune with Belisaurius? I just find it interesting that your count is accurate when the mod's vote count that was posted this morning is off by way of the Belisaurius vote.

[RoyalApe]

I don't like this response. It seems to indicate that it is OK to find arbitrary reasons to point to in order to justify a crap vote.

I generally like to see real reasons myself, it gives more to judge players by, both good and bad. If Duckling isn't going to provide reasons for his suspicions - ok - it will just make it harder for me to trust him.

I think you feeling the need to explain your attack on Duckling with a general statement is scummy. You could've been brief but for some reason you chose not to. I presume a scummy reason.

The post you quoted wasn't me attacking Duckling. The first line was me attacking Acryon. I didn't like his response to Duckling's statement. The second line was my analysis on Duckling's statement itself.

I still haven't decided which one of you to vote though.

I'll go with

VOTE: RoyalApe
because of the obscene quoting stacks

If you had put the vote for me based on the reason you stated earlier in regards to my thoughts on Acryon and Duckling, I would accept the vote and move on. But using this as your reason to vote for me is just silly. We're not in RVS anymore.

[RoyalApe]

^ And that's scummy how?

I didn't say it was scummy. I thought it was curious and would like to know if AFF happens to keep track of voting herself or was tuned into Belisarius for some other reason. She does have her vote on him currently.

[RoyalApe]

A no lynch will most likely hurt town in the long run, and we're approx. halfway through the day right now. At the moment votes on various people are going something like 4, 2, 1, 1, 1, so we have many small/ish wagons. I'm not a fan of any of the non-voters (not including Royal), because right now votes would help move the game along, and talking without voting is a pretty good way to avoid too much attention. For example if any of the people who were called out for something but don't have any votes on them had provided a vote in any of their posts, they'd probably get scumread by some people.

Did you count the votes yourself or are you just very in tune with Belisaurius? I just find it interesting that your count is accurate when the mod's vote count that was posted this morning is off by way of the Belisaurius vote.

This isn't scummy. I've made and posted my own vote-counts in absence of the mod before. It's very much null.

I thought it was curious because it was shortly after the vote count was posted. I've seen enough errors in post counts in my brief time here that I'm not expecting anything out of it either. If AFF does her own vote count, great, it tells me that she is detail oriented and I can use that to judge other interactions better.

[RoyalApe]

A no lynch will most likely hurt town in the long run, and we're approx. halfway through the day right now. At the moment votes on various people are going something like 4, 2, 1, 1, 1, so we have many small/ish wagons. I'm not a fan of any of the non-voters (not including Royal), because right now votes would help move the game along, and talking without voting is a pretty good way to avoid too much attention. For example if any of the people who were called out for something but don't have any votes on them had provided a vote in any of their posts, they'd probably get scumread by some people.

Did you count the votes yourself or are you just very in tune with Belisaurius? I just find it interesting that your count is accurate when the mod's vote count that was posted this morning is off by way of the Belisaurius vote.

Because I bothered to count. Sue me.

I'm not sure why everybody is in a tizzy about my question. Especially as I've never stated that I thought it was scummy to count votes yourself.

I simply found it interesting enough to ask the question. That's what this game is about isn't it, looking for peculiarities and investigating them?

[RoyalApe]

[quote="In

I still haven't decided which one of you to vote though.

I'll go with

VOTE: RoyalApe
because of the obscene quoting stacks

If you had put the vote for me based on the reason you stated earlier in regards to my thoughts on Acryon and Duckling, I would accept the vote and move on. But using this as your reason to vote for me is just silly. We're not in RVS anymore.

This post is super scummy. There is no reason to assume that the reason he stated was the sole thing influencing his vote. Reasoning is stackable. Your defensive reasoning seems like scum to me.

Reasoning is certainly stackable, I can buy that. But couldn't you let Jogger defend his own vote?

[RoyalApe]

Except that is completely irrelevant to everything. It was a stupid question and phrased like you thought her actions were scummy.

How do we know if something is irrelevant until we investigate? I don't think it was a stupid question. Even if all it did was spark some debate, it will be of value to the town.

I do see how my question could be read that I'm implying a scum read from it. All I was trying to do what get more information so I could determine later if it was scummy or not.

I don't know if she was keeping track of Beli because she had her vote on him and was tracking him closely because of suspicion or if she was tracking Beli close because they are partners or if she just likes to spreadsheet out votes to decipher patterns.

[RoyalApe]

Except that is completely irrelevant to everything. It was a stupid question and phrased like you thought her actions were scummy.

How do we know if something is irrelevant until we investigate? I don't think it was a stupid question. Even if all it did was spark some debate, it will be of value to the town.

I do see how my question could be read that I'm implying a scum read from it. All I was trying to do what get more information so I could determine later if it was scummy or not.

I don't know if she was keeping track of Beli because she had her vote on him and was tracking him closely because of suspicion or if she was tracking Beli close because they are partners or if she just likes to spreadsheet out votes to decipher patterns.

You did not ask it as a question.

Are you referring to the AFF vote count issue? I certainly asked a question in post 196. If you are commenting on something else, please clarify.

You implied the vote was silly and that all naked did was vote on the one reason when he had stated other issues.
At least I think naked said something else.

Jogger did give another reason higher above his vote, I don't question that. I also didn't imply his vote was silly, I stated it was silly due to the specific reason he stated.

Looking back on it, I now read that Jogger probably used this secondary reasoning as a tie breaker of sorts between Duckling, Dry-fit and myself. I still think the reasoning is silly, but if he intended to vote for one of the three of us, silly reasoning is better than no reasoning.

[RoyalApe]

Okay for starters I'm going to

Unvote

Looking through, it's hard for me to pinpoint everyone I think is scum but here are my leads at the moment.

I feel that AMY is definitely town and that unlike my original thoughts that Farside is town as well.

I don't quite see the logic on why people are thinking Skelda is scum because the logic that he brings up in 248 makes sense IMO but his post in 279 does come off a little fishy although I would not exactly call it scummy.

Now the person I think comes off the scummiest IMO is nakedjogger. Nakejogger had been pushing for a RoyalApe lynch for most of D-1 and then out of nowhere votes Farside with no explanation? That seems scummy to me.

If you think Jogger is the scummier so far, you should vote there, why haven't you?

[RoyalApe]

As for myself, I'm going to put my vote on Skelda. I didn't vote there after the last exchange because I wanted to step away to lose the emotion of the situation. My opinion hasn't changed, so I'll go ahead and put my vote.

VOTE: Skelda

[RoyalApe]

Well, CMK, I don't think having townreads is particularly suspicious and townreads can be useful because they tell you who not to lynch. But I'm obviously a bit biased. You are very good at making convincing cases though. I might be convinced if I didn't know you were wrong.

But you see, having a lot of strong townreads on people gives you fewer scum options right there, and in a game where I don't have a whole lot of strong scumreads, if I have a townread I'm going to say something. Right now I'm feeling RoyalApe, Dry-fit, Toby, and/or Mr_Blonde for scum because pretty much everyone else has at some point given me something that feels genuine. Isn't finding town a valid way to find scum? I think townreading is easier than scumreading. AND both Dry-fit and Mr_Blonde are on the Chaos wagon, which is, as far as I'm concerned, a scummy place to be.

Town reads are valuable, but yours didn't seemed to be based on much.

[RoyalApe]

Well, CMK, I don't think having townreads is particularly suspicious and townreads can be useful because they tell you who not to lynch. But I'm obviously a bit biased. You are very good at making convincing cases though. I might be convinced if I didn't know you were wrong.

But you see, having a lot of strong townreads on people gives you fewer scum options right there, and in a game where I don't have a whole lot of strong scumreads, if I have a townread I'm going to say something. Right now I'm feeling RoyalApe, Dry-fit, Toby, and/or Mr_Blonde for scum because pretty much everyone else has at some point given me something that feels genuine. Isn't finding town a valid way to find scum? I think townreading is easier than scumreading. AND both Dry-fit and Mr_Blonde are on the Chaos wagon, which is, as far as I'm concerned, a scummy place to be.

Town reads are valuable, but yours didn't seemed to be based on much.

Which of my townreads aren't based on much?

Your 2nd post of thread 67 claims farside is town because he genuinely seems to believe his replacement theory. Even if farside is scum, I would expect him to look genuine in pushing his theory especially early. He wouldn't have had time to be inconsistent yet.

You state that Jogger is town because he decides to unvote because he's showing frustration and has no idea what is going on. You state it is clearly a town tell because you feel the same way. 131. Just before this, in post 129 you state that you don't like to think of people who agree with you are scum. Your town read at this point seems to be projecting your feelings onto a single post of agreement.

In posts 67 and 128 you are reading Beli as scum. In 133 you are already starting to give Beli town credit. By 174 you say he is talented scum and we should keep an eye on him, but posting an example of evil play is too town to ignore. You state that AFF is "just town". That is super insightful, really.

You call Chaos and CKD town in 296. Chaos because he sounds like he believes everything in his posts even if it is wrong. CKD is town because he has convincing arguments and because "heck, most of these people are town".

I have no problem with the thought that people can be wrong and be town. Odds are that wrong people are town because they are not working with as much info. I think your turn on Beli makes some sense if you believe that providing an example of prior scum play is something only a townie willing to be transparent would do - but even then you are hesitant to call him a good town read, you still want to keep an eye on him.

Your town reads on AFF (just town, really?) and Jogger seem to be out of nowhere. Your reads on chaos and CKD for believing what they say and having convincing arguments? Scum does that too.

[RoyalApe]

I do lean town on AFF thus far. I just don't understand you throwing people completely into a "confirmed" good pile with so little information.

I generally waffle in the middle too much which is it's own problem, particularly early with little actionable information.

You're right that it could just be a style issue, but I'm happy with my vote here now.

[RoyalApe]

RoyalApe, for what other reason do you believe Skelda is scummy beyond the town reads deal? You said you were going to vote her before but all I'm reading is stuff about town reads. You had Skelda in the null pile post 145. So I am curious as to what changed your mind.

I'd also like to see your reads in general.

Yes, I had Skelda in the null pile at that point because I liked his consistent tone.

But he has since tried to start a wagon on me after Jogger put out the scum read on me and then changed course to vote for you who I have null leaning good. I don't think I did anything in between his vote on me and his change to you to warrant a switch. But nobody else jumped on my wagon so it feels like he dismissed the wagon for being unfruitful.

As for reads in general - I think I'm happy with AFF, acryon and CKD in my goodish pile. chaos is in my scumish pile but I haven't seen enough of to form a solid judgment.

[RoyalApe]

@RoyalApe

,

But he has since tried to start a wagon on me after Jogger put out the scum read on me and then changed course to vote for you who I have null leaning good. I don't think I did anything in between his vote on me and his change to you to warrant a switch. But nobody else jumped on my wagon so it feels like he dismissed the wagon for being unfruitful.

I believe Skelda did jump onto me because of that and me specifically because he said didn't read me as town out of the bunch being voted for in post 316.

Part of these vote changes happened after you would have voted him though. Just for added clarification, what about your earlier exchange with Skelda made you think scum? What are your thoughts about what I said about Skelda in post 325?

Regarding your first point - Skelda had been more vocal in support of reading me as scum than that read on you though. So he is moving vote from scum read to a null read because there isn't traction?

My first scummy read on Skelda was the "hey this is townie, I know because I'm townie too" post. Those types of things always ping me. My response to the situation is 144

Regarding your final question - that is a possibility, but that is starting to presume too many things in my opinion.

[RoyalApe]

@acyron

,

RoyalApe is tricky to me. 317 seems town. Toby, I know you didn't necessarily buy 317 as much, but a huge part of catching scum is looking at their town-reads. I liked Ape's questioning of even the most universal town-reads from Skelda, because you know who tend to have scum-reads without real conviction? Scum. On the other side, we have 301 where he is pushing Chaos to vote NakedJogger, who was pushing him. Just seemed a little defensive.

I don't like votes without explanation (314 from NakedJogger), but 313 from Belisaurus really sucks IMO. Bel's entire ISO at this point is tunneling Farside and trolling. Follow that up with a "darn I wish I had more to go off of!" and he really doesn't look good to me.

I don't have a problem with RoyalApe questioning town reads. I'm having a little difficulty seeing where he came from before CKD entered.

Why do you see RoyalApe (pushing) Chaos to vote NakedJogger as defensive? Defensive of whom in particular do you think?

Chaos has come in to say some more stuff now. Do you think he is townier or scummier for it? What about Skelda's reaction to CKD's post? Do you think Skelda is scum?

Defensive of himself. NakedJogger was on RoyalApe for a bit. The reply from Ape to Chaos read like a

delayed indirect OMGUS

to me. I'll admit I could be getting a little too far out there on this one.

294 from Chaos reads town to me, but at the same time I want to hear more from him. He read through all the pages and that is all he came up with? He's a null to me at this point.

Skelda's reaction to CKD's post is the kind of reaction I have definitely had as scum to similar statements in the past. Skelda is lean-scum for me.

That's a term I haven't heard before. Neat concept though.

[RoyalApe]

I still think RoyalApe is scum. That never changed. You are exactly correct, I abandoned that wagon because it was proving to not be fruitful. If a whole bunch of people suddenly switched and said, "Ooo, RoyalApe, scummy." then I would be very happy to put my vote back there. But my Toby vote was just a compromise lynch of sorts.

And the whole thing about defensive being scummy...I think it is pretty normal for Town to want to defend themselves when they are being attacked. I get why doing that excessively is scummy, though. Gah, I am going to be lynched at some point in this game most likely. I just wish I wasn't so freaking suspicious all of the time.

And CKD, I didn't think I was buddying, I was just saying what I thought. How are you supposed to present townreads without seeming like you are buddying? If I have a feeling that someone is Town am I supposed to keep that to myself?

Why do you feel you need the town's support for your own reads? If you feel I'm scum, vote me. Moving your vote to appease the town is scummy.

[RoyalApe]

I think a Chaos (scum) flip will speak volumes.

Agreed.

People that I haven't see much from today as far as reads.
Ape, scrabbles and duckling.

You haven't seen much from me because I haven't been here. Just finished a quick read through of d2. Not sure why focus has largely been on two suspects. Would think people would be looking at everybody in depth.

[RoyalApe]

My scum suspect is alive. Who do you think is suspicious? Why everyone?

Starting to time warp through things now, sorry to all about the inactivity.

Not sure about who I'm suspicious of at the moment as I'm really out of tune with this game. Why everyone? I only know my role, why should I trust anyone?