Open 576.1: The Enemy of my Enemy is my...Enemy? (Game Over)

[Heartless]

*cough*
we're replacing nova don't hammer

mod, plz announce us. thnx.

[Heartless]

lol sorry

[Heartless]

this is all antihero for now. i'll be the one with fucked up grammar, no capitalization and lots of multiposting

[Heartless]

wow, i'm frickin' stupid. i was wondering why i couldn't find isos for mr strife or pine but that's because they're really mathdino and someone else that flaked

mod, could you please change the flips in the first post to reflect who was in what slot? appreciate it

[Heartless]

'mkay i want to kill whoever suspected mastin and guille at the end of yesterday

who was that?

[Heartless]

wow mastin, a lurker wagon with no competition. what could possibly go wrong with this?

you're voting town. you can stop lurking now that i'm here.

[Heartless]

mastin was investigated by wolves (mathdino faction)
guille was investigated by mafia (goblin faction)

mathdino and goblin hating each other explains the cross kill.

mastin investigate doesn't say much. egg cursed him with his dying breath. mathdino probably wouldn't have done it, so i think the wolf cop suggested it. maybe droog would've done it: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p6401430

guille might have been omgus on goblin's part.

hm. poe seems to be all the rage this game.

[Heartless]

yeah i think the guille investigate was goblin's idea

[Heartless]

yeah, i think droog's other wolf

[Heartless]

he was the only one scumreading mastin at the end of yesterday

[Heartless]

bleh

goblin suspected guille

tgs suspected guille
, but goblin gives reasonable doubt here

[Heartless]

actually.....

i think TSG is scum

[Heartless]

Okay well once again saying/doing something silly in RVS hasn't gotten me much :I Oh well.

@Fink, Why would I have wanted to vote for Mastin over Grey?

I'm not really buying Mathdino's townslip. I'm not saying he's scummy, I'd put him at null for the time being, but the last game proved Mathdino knew what he was doing enough that he could totally fake a townslip.

I like Astinus's play so far, have a slight gut town read on her. She seems like she's genuinely trying to scumhunt and improve from the last game.

Dragonspawn makes a pretty good point about Riabi not wanting to go into so much detail about his scum strategy if he was scum in this game, and since I was Riabi's scumpartner in ~The Game That Never Was~ I can confirm that he's being honest and am inclined to also townread him. Dragon I'm less sure about, but if nothing else he seems less scummy than in the first game so far. As far as the whole Gambler's Fallacy thing everyone pointed out, I could see him saying that as town or scum.

i mean i'm just looking at the first post and it's a lot of townreads and being sure not to step on anyone's toes while looking like she's sorting
especially in light of the revelation the aggression on greyice was faked as a gambit

[Heartless]

Not Voting - Heartless, Girl, droog, Bulb

oh and what are they both doing right now?

^^^^^^^^^^this, that's what they're doing

[Heartless]

Hello again, droog. Also, hello mastin2, nice to meet you. Antihero had a lot of good things to say about you, I look forward to talking with you.

Given the time-sensitive nature of this day, I will read and catch up as quickly as possible.

-TTH

Preview Edit:
Hi Anti!
I see Anti's already started. We'll have to compare notes in a little bit.

[Heartless]

See the issue I have is I'm very cautious in trusting anyone completely. If at end game we have a copcheked townie player, I'll probably be the guy pointing out we haven't hit the Godfather, or a trustworthy miller could be scum.

So my reads are always leaning town, never fully trusted.

Town
MathDino
Mastin2
guille

Scum
Fink

Now this list is missing a lot of players obviously. These are really my "how I look at their posts", or do I take it all with scrutiny or see it as it is.

GreyICE has bothered me a lot. Looking at his posts he has even contributed much that's meaningful, only a couple posts that weren't mainly to call others on bad logic. But Grey hasn't even tried to contribute.

...


...

...


ohkaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

could someone please kindly tell me why the fuck we're at l1?

[Heartless]

2birds1stone is a solid mafia candidate Post 166

[Heartless]

wow mastin, a lurker wagon with no competition. what could possibly go wrong with this?
you're voting town. you can stop lurking now that i'm here.

Yep!

Vote: Bulbazak

How 'bout this?

i thought greyice was p. town

still on page 8, but vote would go : droog , TGS , or 2birds

[Heartless]

mastin could you explain all these "associatives" nova apparently had?


like...... i'm going through and there's a bunch of

ANTI

-associatives so i'm scratching my head over how our slot got run up

i mean, 2birds might as well be holding up a sign that says "i'm fink's scumbuddy" at this point

[Heartless]

Spoiler: looking at this

Oh wow, I got a wagon going. I didn't even notice. Let me catch up on this game, in a little while.

This reads town to me.

@2birds: So you were voting Guille before all this, based on his first 3 posts. What do you think of his contribution today, does it make you more sure of your read, or want to reevaluate your read, or is it unchanged?

Was sheeping GreyICE. Currently think Guille is town.

I had Fink down as scum on my read-through up until he claimed game frustrations. This very much read sincerely to me, and in my experience, people are far more okay with being scumread as scum than they are as town.

This game is starting to look like my favourite sort of game right now. Math, Astinus, dragonspawn, Fink.

GreyICE, why is mastin2 town? She opened the game requesting previous-game information, voted you citing vague and uncertain tells, then jumped to Egg because meta. This doesn't seem like mastin2 from last game to me, who, while not necessarily embodying openness or rationality, was playing a very clear and structured game that was very easy to follow.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mastin2

Bad town list, doesn't include Fink or yourself.

Why are Nova and Grey town?

Grey I believe I explained. His opening post seems like a townslip, he as scum wouldn't essentially give tips on how to play the game as scum, his read on guille was good, and his defending mastin who happens to be scumreading is townish.

Oh, shit, yeah, okay, Grey can be on the town pile too.

I don't think I can stress how strong my Fink townread is. He was so legitimately frustrated, he fucking knew he was town and just couldn't believe he wouldn't be townread.

At this point, I'm seeing enough townies that I'm happy to simply lynch between everyone else and let the game sort itself out.

[Heartless]

up to page 10

wolf reads: droog
mafia reads: 2 birds , [[TGS]]]]//

[Heartless]

Bad town list, doesn't include Fink or yourself.

Why are Nova and Grey town?

and 2birds fits the profile for multiball scumbag. not being too aggressive not not being too laid back either. generous w/ the townreads. the townread on fink is WAY beyond a rational point, consistent w/ the fact scum can't lose their buddy d1 in this setup

[Heartless]

<snip>

Likely will vote Nova when I'm done, though.

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooo, not much?

/shakes head

i mean, fink's defense of nova wasn't just some raw defense for the sake of defense. it looked like a pretty genuine attack on guille.

[Heartless]

the post i quoted a while ago, nova was explicitly TOWNREADING the two people who ended up eating the investigatives (out of 3 total townreads), which are for the express purpose of fucking the other team over. those are going to go to the genuine scumreads.

[Heartless]

Cool, caught up on game.

I like mastin2's recent posts.

Could go for Riabi lynch at some stage, though it doesn't seem particularly necessary to compromise for it today.

Astinus is difficult to read this game. Hilariously difficult. About all I can say is that I have to suspect she would be obviously scum were she scum, but I can't confirm that without actually reading her other games (which I have neither the time nor the will to do at the moment). I'd like Astinus to be town, to be honest.

Droog's avvy is still really scary. Just putting it out there. The mastin2 unvote is... interesting? Sure, I'll call it interesting for now.

Speaking of "interesting", the Egg wagon recently gained that quality, and I'd like to see where it goes.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Egg

here's another post we can add to the collection of 2birds staying firmly in the goldilocks zone

[Heartless]

the egg push is so lethargic. bunch of townreads. laying low.

this is classic multiball scum. tth, what do you think?

VOTE: 2birds1stone

[Heartless]

wait a sec, he got targeted by the mafia seer

so he's not mafia

does he make sense as wolf?

[Heartless]

eh, it doesn't make sense, he actually acknowledges the optimum strategy, he would've followed it.

UNVOTE:

[Heartless]

astinus = quagmire of groupthink

[Heartless]

i just got finished w/ day 1 and i'm at about 95% certainty droog is wolf

project for you TTH: figure out why everyone's calling astinus town. i don't get it.

[Heartless]

Bad town list, doesn't include Fink or yourself.

Why are Nova and Grey town?

alright, i'm out for the night. sinuses are killing me.

have fun, tth.

[Heartless]

why the hell does that quote keep ending up in my posts?

[Heartless]

The first thing I will do is place the vote.

VOTE: Bulbazak

-TTH

[Heartless]

mastin2

, after some thought about this game, I have a tinfoil hat theory about 2birds1stone. Would you like to hear it?

-TTH

[Heartless]

2birds

, actually, I'd just like to say it because I think it would be

extremely

cool if it were true. You would be flattered, trust me. It's very Seventh Doctor. My Bulbazak-mafia theory is a lot more favored by probability, but the you-mafia theory is Rube-Goldberg-esque and beautiful. I'll type it up in a bit.

-TTH

[Heartless]

The theory of how scum would use their night actions:

What Antihero is saying regarding the investigative night actions is that, because each scumteam presumably chose to not send their results to their goon, it's optimal to try to target members of the opposite team. A townie would have no inhibition in outing the results, and therefore, it's more beneficial to each scum team to produce damning evidence for their rivals. This is because when scum pass their results to town, the by-product is making more information public. The only results that benefit each individual scum team is one that sends their rivals to the gallows. Otherwise, the better strategy would be the more conservative route of sending the results to the goon and using it to either subtly guide the lynch or guide the nightkill. Several people have gone over this already, I'm just summarizing what they said. If the preceding paragraph doesn't make sense to you read 2bird's Post 468.

An important logical extension

from this is that the investigative results would have to end up in the hands of someone they would be alright with semi-"confirming" since the players they sent results to would be cleared of being on their scum team in the even of their own goon flipping. In other words, they don't want to inadvertently narrow the lynch pool by sending out their investigative results carelessly. They want to send it to someone who will survive the night but likely won't survive over the long term to really hurt them come time for end game. I predict it would be about mid-to-upper townread for them. This will become important later.

The conclusion 2bird came to in the aforementioned Post 468 was that the scum teams were made up of newbies. I disagree and I don't think that's the case since neither Pine, who according to his profile page was a member since 2011 and has over 7000 posts, nor mrstrife, who had several completed games and 100 posts, were complete newbies.

Further

evidence for this is the fact that the kills themselves both hit scum. This alone suggests the scum teams weren't made up of scrubs.

GreyICE / Bulbazak

Antihero was building his preliminary reads on these assumptions, which I think are very well founded. Unfortunately, it seems he missed quite a few details on his read through. I agree with him that it would certainly be in scum's best interest to defend a buddy in danger, as losing him on Day 1 would likely be a fatal blow. GreyICE had a

very

keen interest in defending Fink and there's a

long

list of posts that show it. Here they are:

Spoiler:

This Fink wagon blows.

Vote: Dragonspawn

Can't be too careful.

I am adamantlyrics against the fink wagon. I just spent an entire game busting his assistant and he was town. Don't feel like doing it again. He was contributing up until the VLA, and I hate lynching contributing memyers (that goes triple in multiball).

You're also hung up on dragon = town for one dumb reason.

So we are at a stupid impass becaus e I'm right and you should agree with me.

Pedit: oh god I'm sorry.

I am adamantlyrics against the fink wagon. I just spent an entire game busting his assistant and he was town. Don't feel like doing it again. He was contributing up until the VLA, and I hate lynching contributing memyers (that goes triple in multiball).

I wonder how you see fink contributing. The only thing I see him do is talk about how he is not scum and how I am?

Also, How is everyone considering "dragon = town for one dumb reason." imply that Dragon is scum?

For fucks sake, he STILL has the second most posts in this entire town (thanks MathSpamo). He prods Astinus, then interacts with him, talks about mastin, hell, pushes me on Mastin (he did the same thing last game with my Fuzzy = Town read), pushes me on the Guille vote, and it's only when Dino starts pushing his Fink = scum read that he gets fed up and frustrated. That reads to me as genuine because he was fairly frustrated after being pushed hard by me, Parama, and Sthar in the last game, and actually ending up in a claim clusterfuck.

So in short, this 100% seems town, and I think the wagon is, again, complete horseshit.

PEdit: I am NOT in any ongoing games with MathDino, he's full of shit. There goes my fucking town read.

One note, Mathdino - we can't do "X or Y" this game. X and Y can be "not scum with each other" and still independently scum.

Not that it matters, I think Fink is town and Guille is scum, but "X or Y" is so bad.

On that list, I don't want to lynch 2birds, he's competent and may be night killed (plus I don't think he's particularly scummy here), would lynch NJAC just to remove a non-contributor who will never be night killed (not being night killable is actually a fine reason to lynch someone in this setup), and I'd be 100% fine lynching Riabi and Egg (now that I look, something is seriously off on Egg).

Shall we then Mastin? I feel a fuckton better about the Egg wagon than I do about the Fink one. Based on the ending of Micro 398 I just see that one as a green name and lots of yelling in the dead thread.

Vote: Egg

PEdit: Dino is scum. Doesn't matter, he's getting night killed anyway.

@Mastin: Town can lynch town. You really should know that, given some of the games we've played together. And scum can lynch scum (67% of scum not on a scum wagon don't care if it goes through at the moment - how's that for statistics?). The Fink wagon blows because it's on town, not because of who is on it.

Also the last time you pulled that shit about "seriously town, lynch me first" it was pine, so you can bite my shiny metal ass.

GreyICE telegraphed the MathDino kill, most notably in Post 247. While Dino seemed to start out in good standing with GreyICE, the read starting at Post 233, never to recover. Wondering who was scum reading guille, Anti? Look no further than Post 242. GreyICE was. Then we can visit the 2birds read in that same post. According to Grey, he's a reasonably solid town read that would make sense as a nightkill anyway, but it's not overdone because he does temper the read with the phrase "plus I don't think he's particularly scummy here" and "

may

be nightkilled."

When you consider what happened night 1 with the mafia night actions, they

all make sense

through the lens of GreyICE's ISO.

It also makes sense

that GreyICE's reads and thoughts would have more sway over what actually happened than the newcomer's thoughts and reads after a catch-up, if he did one at all.

Continuing to write, I'll be multi-posting as I'm going.

-TTH

[Heartless]

Before we go on the werewolves I have to ask you something.

What exactly were we expecting out of Pine in terms of decision making dynamics here? The mafia was easier because mrstrife, with barely enough posts to qualify for the title "Mafia Scum" under his username, wasn't going to have much juice in that decision making process for the night actions. The one already there was clearly going to call the shots. Does Pine have a reputation of being good, a power player?

If so, it's going to be a little tougher because with the mafia we were comparing reads of an entity vs a non-entity. Now we're trying to account for reads that could potentially come from the black box of whatever Pine said and thought. Antihero thought the mastin targeting pointed to droog being the mafia seer, which could have merit. droog certainly was scumreading mastin, mostly centered around what he perceived to be a bad attack on egg, Post 389. He also scumread goblin for the L-1 egg vote in Post 370, which goes a way toward explaining the kill. Both these reads would very likely be reinforced with an Egg town flip. There's some reasonable doubt here, though, because it's possible that Pine is responsible for the choices of night actions. Regardless of what you think about what Pine may or may not have done, you have to admit droog's reads and the actions

do

line up awfully well with what the wolves ended up doing.

Personally, I think droog himself is fairly scummy as well. The entirety of droog's ISO is very thin to begin with and he reads as a lot more muted both in terms of posting style and posting frequency than the last game I played with him where he was town. His vote remains completely idle, but it's not like he doesn't have any scum reads. mastin was one, but oddly enough droog

removed

his predecessor's vote on him never to return it. He was also a very vocal detractor of the Egg wagon; we see that in Post 379, Post 389, and Post 424.

Not once this entire time

does droog vote the Goblin counter wagon to this Egg wagon he apparently loathes so much. The words are there, but when the chips hit the table, he was nowhere to be found when it came time to actually vote. This is a calculated passivity in the face of what he's predicting to be a town flip. (I'm kind of surprised Anti didn't mention that because I learned this tell from him...) And don't tell me that multiball mitigates this at all because there's

plenty of utility

to scum making themselves appear to be passive non-threats to their rivals.

-TTH

-TTH

[Heartless]

That's where I stand right now. My working theory is that droog is the remaining werewolf and Bulbazak is the remaining mafia.

Just for shits and giggles, here's my theory on why 2bird could be scum:

Spoiler: Caution: Contents may contain crazy

Part of this depends on the

exact

mechanics of these investigative roles, which Anti filled me in on. Antihero was in a previous game of this same setup and told me that people received the reports at daybreak. In other words, if scum sent the results to their goons and the goons died, they wouldn't have time to report their finding to their teammate. I'm under the assumption this is how this game is working as well.

Antihero picked up on a lot of stuff that he thought 2bird was scum for, but he stopped in his tracks when he saw 2bird's claim the next day. So, I'm wondering, what if Anti was right? He pointed out places where 2bird defended Fink fairly aggressively and he thought 2bird fit the behavioral profile of "classic multiball scum." But does 2bird's claim automatically make Anti's first impression wrong?

Actually, it does not.

Right now, everyone's making the assumption that 2bird's is telling the truth in his claimed result.

What he's not? What if it's fabricated?

That would mean 2bird is the Mafia Seer himself. Sound crazy? It's not.

We already know that 2bird is acutely aware of the optimal strategy as scum in Post 468. So what if he went ahead and sent his result to mrstrife? mrstrife dies and with him dies the investigative result.

No one else knows that, though.

This leaves 2bird free to fake receiving the mafia seer's report. Why would he do that?

To make everyone, including the town and the other team, think he can't be the mafia seer.

Does this sound risky to you. It might. But it really isn't.

If you were going to fake results, you would obviously want to say you got negative ("not werewolf") results because, well, there's only 1 werewolf in the game of 10 people. Even if you chose someone at random, there would only be a 1/9 chance you would screw up and claim a false negative on the actual werewolf. That's an 8/9 chance you have going for you already. How could you increase those chances even more? Go look at the flipped werewolf's interactions and see if there's anyone he was willing to lynch, keeping in mind that bussing is

extremely

discouraged on Day 1 of this setup. Going back and looking at the wagon at it's height, we're lead to...

Guille

- GreyICE,

Mathdino

, Riabi, 2birds, Fink

And who does 2birds claim the result on?

Shit just got weird, and I'm not sure what to make of it.

I received an investigation last night confirming Guile as "not Werewolf".

I see two possibilities: one, scum is bad at this; two, Guille is pulling a dumb gambit.

As mafia seer, this play would be absurdly low risk and extremely high payoff.

-TTH

[Heartless]

project for you TTH: figure out why everyone's calling astinus town. i don't get it.

I did some research on this and I'll debrief you on it in a while.

-TTH

[Heartless]

I've decided I'm just going to catch up during the night phase (Assuming you don't lynch me, otherwise I'll just shrug and do something more important.). I've finished the first game, which should be helpful in sorting through both days, but now all I need is any investigative results. I'd rather not have to sort through the thread to find them (I'd probably just read without them anyway, which might throw off my reads.). If I do get lynched, look at those on my wagon for policy reasons, BS reasons, and any other sort of opportunistic jump.

Thanks.

lynch at will

[Heartless]

are you gonna'
..
... like...
......
vote someone, droog?

[Heartless]

Hey beast, when CAPS ALT's current game is finished, want me to turn it into a hydra with you? You sound like the sort of guy who'd do well in CAPS ALT.

Who the hell is CAPS ALT?

Also, I don't say no to hydras because they are fun.

Hello beastcharizard. Do you have anything in the way of a catch up?

-TTH

[Heartless]

that's not a catch up

[Heartless]

nice talking to you too beast

[Heartless]

since beast has apparently dedicated himself to being the 3rd werewolf, you're not going to get anything out of him tth. don't bother.

i bet scum's in one of your blind spots.

[Heartless]

project for you TTH: figure out why everyone's calling astinus town. i don't get it.

I did some research on this and I'll debrief you on it in a while.

-TTH

it has nothing to do with this

[Heartless]

if you're going to troll at least keep up plz

[Heartless]

no, you ARE astinus

i asked tth yesterday why astinus was town and she told me after she made that post. tth sounded pretty confident in the astinus townread so i'm just leaving that where it is.

[Heartless]

amished

also I'M GOING TO HAVE FEWER HYDRA SLIPS THAN YOU TTH EAT YOUR HEART OUT

[Heartless]

Riddleton strikes me as the player most likely to send me an investigation informing me that I'm innocent (specifically, he's the only player here who I've played with)

I'm assuming you're claiming to have gotten the werewolf cop's report last night?

[Heartless]

Spoiler: large horrible stream-of-conscious catchup post

-Okay, so I remember trying to pull some RVS shenanigans that didn't work, kept my vote on GreyICE cause he was a null read and I wanted to take a closer look at my scumreads before I made my mind up.

-Oh right I was weirded out by Grey/Mastin interactions and meta-talk, too.

-Guille was my biggest scumread before i fell off the thread for a while. Felt like his reads were very wishy-washy and worded very carefully to make sure he looked good if/when they turned out wrong.

@TGS: I act like I'm experienced and my join date says I'm experienced but at the end of the day I'm still a newb who has no idea what he's doing
I don't like your not-liking of the meta argument, it seems pretty solid to me.

Well I DON'T LIKE THAT YOU DON'T LIKE THAT I DON'T LIKE ETC ETC

I'm not sure if anyone has said this or not already, but doesn't being aware of and stating your meta negate it? It proves that you're thinking about your own meta enough that you could easily play against it and then point it out for town cred. Lots of experienced players have made this argument before, so it surprises me that Grey and Mastin, who as far as I know are both pretty experienced, would rely on a meta argument to prove they're both town, and it makes me wonder if they're a scumteam.

-Okay so Mathdino's argument for scum!Fink is that Fink is scumreading guille without trying to figure out if he's right or not. Meh. I don't agree that Fink's acting scummy.

-Riabi's unvote of guille is also a little weird to me. He said it was because guille's been contributing, but I actually started finding guille scummier the more he posted.

P.S. Meta is shit

-Egg's catchup post looks okayyyy to me, i guess? but I notice that he says he found Fink town until Fink voted for guille, but doesn't mention anything about guille in the rest of his post. I'll see if that comes up later.

-aaand now we have a full page of Fink and Mathdino going at it

-I'd say Mathdino comes off looking worse at the end of it, I just don't find Fink scummy and I don't understand why Mathdino does. Looking back at the Nova-Guille exchange, I'm inclined to side with Fink and say Guille still looks scummy. Honestly, I think the entire misunderstanding thing is moot, anyway, Guille looked scummy to me, anyway.

-I think 2birds is town. Admittedly this is a gut feeling mostly, and I don't know if he's right about Mastin or not (i just cannot read mastin for shit she is an enigma to me *shakefist*) but his posts just look genuine to me.

Okay so here's a thing:

Grey I believe I explained. His opening post seems like a townslip, he as scum wouldn't essentially give tips on how to play the game as scum, his read on guille was good, and his defending mastin who happens to be scumreading is townish.

Mathdino, your vote on Fink has a lot to do with his vote on Guille, but you liked Grey's read of Guille. If nobody's asked this already, could you please elaborate on what was better about Grey's read?

-Honestly I think Mathdino could be scum but he's also the most active player in the game so maybe it's just because his posts are the only ones I'm reading.

-and then... we have... lots of non-posts. Especially from Guille. man, you wanna talk about skating by. like four posts in a row and they're totally contentless.

-god why is everybody's posts so angry-sounding in this game. i'm so used to newbie games where people are generally trying to be polite ; ~;

-I wasn't sure if I'd agree with her but Mastin's read on Egg is good, got me thinking about a bunch of things about Egg's intro I hadn't considered and also brought up the same weirdness that I pointed out earlier in this massive post.

Gonna wait until tomorrow to clear my head and put a vote down, for now I'm gonna go cry some more!!

I'm having a hard time thinking MathDino's scumbuddy typed a few of these sentences. Specifically: "I'd say Mathdino comes off looking worse at the end of it, I just don't find Fink scummy and I don't understand why Mathdino does." and "Honestly I think Mathdino could be scum but he's also the most active player in the game so maybe it's just because his posts are the only ones I'm reading." There's not much to be gained by taking the side of someone who you don't know the alignment of over your partner.

[Heartless]

I'm having a hard time thinking MathDino's scumbuddy typed a few of these sentences. Specifically: "I'd say Mathdino comes off looking worse at the end of it, I just don't find Fink scummy and I don't understand why Mathdino does." and "Honestly I think Mathdino could be scum but he's also the most active player in the game so maybe it's just because his posts are the only ones I'm reading." There's not much to be gained by taking the side of someone who you don't know the alignment of over your partner.

I actually see that as opposite. Consider that those are noncommittal statements, TGS never really pushes Math. And Math only acknowledges TGS once early, IIRC. Not many players found Math to be scummy, if any at all. So this statement might be TGS applying suspicion on Math so that if any gets killed, the other would look better. Also, consider that Math was the Lesser of the two scum. If they had to choose who to bus, it be Math.

This would only be true if the townread on Fink was genuine. I'm not so sure about this.

[Heartless]

Most of droog's catch up is nonsensical.

[Heartless]

that's what I thought but it makes no sense to me. With mafia dead there is no need to investigate. And while I don't know whether it's the same for this games but most games I've played a scum pr can't use their ability and do a night kill at the same time it would be their partner who has to make the kill. We know that there was a kill.

this whole report claim isn't making any sense to me. It's making me suspicious of bird when I would otherwise not be. It makes no sense to lie about a report. Nor does it make any sense for an investigation to have occured

If I had to guess, it was to sew suspicion. It sounds too incredible for 2birds to have made up and thought it would pass. If he was making something up, I would expect him to have claimed results on someone else.

[Heartless]

Most of droog's catch up is nonsensical.

what about it did you not understand

The case on Astinus and why your vote isn't on the Astinus slot even though you're pointing out what you're saying are better associatives than the ones on Riddleton's slot.

[Heartless]

It's not a matter of if I "believe" you or not. The fact is, only one of those two can be scum.

[Heartless]

You're either wrong about beastcharizard or Riddleton. Which one is it?

[Heartless]

Spoiler:

Okay, since I apparently skimmed over why I thought I had read, I'll say this:

1. Math's townslip doesn't seem too suspicious to me. I look at it as a mistake he made accidentally and it eliminates one person on my scumlist.

2. I'm still trying to figure out Dragon's math.

3. I have a feeling Grey is subtly communicating to his scum partner how he or she should go about playing.

4. As for Egg, I'm wondering if his leave is a cover his lurking as scum and trying to stay out of the limelight.

With all that said, Grey seems the scummiest to me based on his advice to scum. Therefore...

VOTE: Grey

Math fink made a big deal out of astonished town slipping here
By suspecting grey ice for giving advice to scum

I actually have to take that back, I think I get the gist of your post here. You're saying that she was soft defending MathDino by validating the "town slip." The problem here is that the content of the post you quoted was a direct response to Fink's Post 45. The "defense" wasn't unprovovked, leaving the decent chance that she just happened to misread him as town.

My issue with scumreads on the Astinus slot is that she doesn't seem like the most conscientious player and that's probably the root of most suspicions of her. Her anemic posting coupled with self-destructive behavior seemed to have gotten her into trouble in the first round of this game and it doesn't look like she made much of an effort to change between the first and second round. Other supporting evidence includes the fact she refers to herself as a "shitposter" in her signature and a few of the answers to questions in her GTKAS.

[Heartless]

I still think it's droog.
VOTE: droog

[Heartless]

My issue with scumreads on the Astinus slot is that she doesn't seem like the most conscientious player and that's probably the root of most suspicions of her. Her anemic posting coupled with self-destructive behavior seemed to have gotten her into trouble in the first round of this game and it doesn't look like she made much of an effort to change between the first and second round. Other supporting evidence includes the fact she refers to herself as a "shitposter" in her signature and a few of the answers to questions in her GTKAS.

dont generally look at out of thread behavior
should i for astinus?

I usually do. If someone has a GTKAS, I usually go look at it just to get a sense of their personality, other things. It gives a rough baseline.

[Heartless]

Why is everyone so anally fixated on bussing and looking for bussers. I thought we already established that bussing is a suboptimal strategy for this setup and that's borne out by GreyICE-Fink dynamics.

If you go search through MathDino's ISO for droog, you see they're pretty chummy. There's also this (bolded line mine for emphasis):

Oh yeah, that's a good point, forgot this was multiball. Found Fink's jumping on guille's wagon to be indicative that they weren't on the same team but totally derped on setup.

NJAC is now droog. We're not lynching him unless something goes seriously wrong in the next 4 days with his slot.

On 2birds, I'm treating him as a null mostly because while he has been different from last game, I'm not getting overly townish vibes yet. But yeah, wouldn't lynch him, just saying he's in the PoE'd out of the townpool list.

Edit: Written before mastin's wall.

[Heartless]

I don't need your sass, Mr. Charizard.

There's only one scum in the game, and therefore only one theory will make sense. It's weird to vote someone and then start negging on someone else.

[Heartless]

which explains exactly why dino called me njac
did you even read anti?

That can be explained by you replacing into the NJAC slot.

I don't think Math will be so blatant in his association.

What's this based on?

[Heartless]

^^^^^^^^
i think THIS is in the blindspot tth

this post is just pinging in so many ways

[Heartless]

^^^^^^^^
i think THIS is in the blindspot tth

this post is just pinging in so many ways

Alright, I'll get to this. Sometime.

[Heartless]

When Egg confronted about his dragon townread, this is what MathDino had to say:

Your posts look pretty townish, but I don't like your stance on dragonspawn. It looks sketchy if dragon is scum. It's like you are calling him town, but trying not to do it blatantly. You said you were going to re-read him though, so if you haven't already just let me know when you do and what comes up.

HEY GUYS. DRAGONSPAWN IS TOWN

. You know, like he was in all of my townpools.

That doesn't feel like the response MathDino would give if Egg was actually spot on.

[Heartless]

which was a direct response to

would lynch NJAC just to remove a non-contributor who will never be night killed

This isn't analogous to the Astinus point I just made. MathDino is categorically stating that you shouldn't be lynched, which scum have a lot of motive to do. Also, GreyICE wasn't directly speaking to MathDino and, therefore, didn't

require

an answer.

[Heartless]

I Might be biased, but when I read through Math's ISO I thought that He was prepping me up to be his buddy. Like his defense for me and then a bit of suspicion later, while still defending me from fink. Although, I might be giving him too much credit here, but that's how I see it. When I play scum I try to not generate associate tells with my buddies, and I actively try to manufacture associative tells on other players.

Nihil sapientiae odiosius acumine nimio.

There are so many things that says droog is scum:

*

Both the Goblin nightkill and the mastin investigation make sense with what we know droog's reads were. You can say what you want about what you think Pine's input was, but there's something to be said for actually

being here

the whole game. I bet the wolf who was already here had the most sway.

*

The associatives between droog and MathDino are there. You don't have to look far to find the chumminess I was talking about earlier: Post 184 and Post 191. The townread on droog is never explained beyond "gut" (Post 350) and MathDino is sure to qualify it as his "weakest" read (Post 354) even though he's adamant about not wanting to lynch the slot (Post 246). It's a non-sequitur and unsupported read in the middle of an otherwise reasoned set of reads, and that sticks out.

*

There's the matter of droog being a naysayer on the Egg wagon but not actually doing anything about it.

*

Overall, droog's ISO isn't anything to write home about. The current reads are in absolute disarray and the resulting vote doesn't make much sense. He presented associatives with our slot, Riddleton's slot, and beastcharizard's slot. Surprisingly, the one with the least support and vaguest outlining, Riddleton's slot, ends up with the vote (Post 746). The stronger cases lie elsewhere, but Riddleton gets the vote because "Sorry bro It's makes sense associatively"?