Open 607 - Friends and Enemies - Game Over

[Rainbow Unicat]

VOTE: Ika for being scum in WDPT

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

@Mod: Plotinus head of Rainbow Unicat is V/LA until Sunday. not afk though and will still be trying to participate somewhat.

[Rainbow Unicat]

She is! Bella's the other head of this hydra. The heads are listed in our signature.

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

I mean, he could have not voted but made a comment on someone else's vote or asked a question or something. Vedith's entrance was about as unobtrusive as it possibly could have been without just making a blank post or not posting at all. Which sounds like exactly the kind of posting I want to drag someone into the limelight for.

Yeah, I thought so too. It was like he wanted the game in his egosearch but couldn't be arsed to skim the 15 posts before his and contribute to the game.

VOTE: Vedith L-2

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

Vedith, how do you feel about the wagon that has formed against you?

Varian, ika was already on the wagon so there was less danger of a lolhammer.

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

Checking in!

Early town-lean on Varian and random. worried about donut's vote most of all on that wagon. Veidth's response to pressure looks ok for now. Interested in hearing more from Heartless <3

-b

[Rainbow Unicat]

her

Where did that pronoun come from? Because I am a person with a gender ambiguous nick, a gender ambiguous avatar, and a they pronoun in the pronoun field on my main account, and people who don't know me usually default to male pronouns because of that so it makes me suspicious someone's been talking about me.

I stand by the idea that Vedith's first post is a "i want this in my ego search but i'm not actually playing" and i think that's scummy but I liked 40 from Vedith well enough.

VOTE: Firebringer entrance has been pretty fluffy.

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

Hi TTH

You used the awkward rvs thing on me on bees - we were both town. Sometimes, peeps are just awkward. I understand where plotti is with Vedith's laziness - it doesn't look like he was that bothered about the thread, but his recent posting is better.

I feel similarly to you about Donot, though. However, Random's not explained clearly enough about what he learnt from the vote - @random, expand on what you got out of this? Wanderer's question was good, but I don't think you quite explained.

@ika: hi! Gut top town and top scum rn? xx


-b

[Rainbow Unicat]

Ika, explain your reads (one sentence will do).

fire...wow. got any scum games? linky?

@Vei - if you ain't sure about town-reads, who's scum? Your vote ain't doing much rn. (I think. VC?)

[Rainbow Unicat]

catching up!

vedith65 I think being lost in RVS is a sign of being new rather than anything. The votes before you weren’t throw away votes to the people who wrote them probably.

uneasy about firebringer still.

page 4!

thecow, how many games have you played?

i’m townleaning varian.

heartless85 lol.

heartless86 then why aren’t you voting us?

random95 what felt opportunistic about it? it was page 2 and they put you at L-6?

page 5!

random100 that’s part of why I voted Vedith too!

persivul108 I reacted the same way in Refraction to Bella calling me she because we hadn’t interacted much before that game. And you played in refraction so yeah I am not surprised that you noticed that some people call me by that pronoun. Neither head of heartless has ever played with me before.

You’ll notice I didn’t vote Heartless over the pronoun (though it wouldn’t be out of character for me, I have been getting better at not death tunnelling people over smileys like when I was a newb), I just wanted to know where the pronoun came from and why they are using it.

this reads list isn't ordered very precisely within the groups.

readslist

town:

Wanderer-nl
ika
Heartless
Varian-
Vedith

idek but maaaaybe town:

Persivul

lurksacks:

TheCow
Montosh
Simple Hope

lurk sacks who may be scum:

DonotTrustMe

maybe scum:

randomidget

scum:

Firebringer

—Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

Wow, this page is kinda filler-y. Pers, what you getting out of that set of questions?

Ika's response to wanderer is good.

Anti...what? The post pinged to me because it seems to be a line that has been used 2/3 times around me, and I was trying to work out if it had any bearing on alignment. How is it a powerplay? Is 'feeling threatened' a sign of town or scum? Last time we played we connected well, wondering what is different rn.

People seem to have a polarised read on The Cow - why?

-bx

[Rainbow Unicat]

Are you the narrator?

Yes.

--Plotinus

An omniscient narrator.

--Bella

[Rainbow Unicat]

Hey Ika.

You = vibe town. Don't think your vote is on the right player rn.
Heartles = Feels really scummy to me, but it's a 'gut' thing and might improve with more tth
Wanderer = asks really good questions, her interaction with you over our slot made me town-read you both.
Montosh = who? Still rvs-ing as well. nully
Firebringer = I can't read them. Have herd the phrase 'too scummy to be scum' bandied around :S
randomidget = :S 112 doesn't give me town-vibes. scummish.
Vedith = town. reacted really well to pressure.
TheCow = ?
Persivul = ?
DonotTrustMe = need more, leaning scum
Simple Hope = Need more info, leaning town
Varian = prolly town. Mainly gut. want more


I've got a few decent town-reads, but there's a wash of nully/scummy/more content please in there. Sorry!

-bx

[Rainbow Unicat]

Also rainbow you didn't explain your scumread on me.

I felt you were being overly defensive. I thought it was weird that you felt simple hope was being opportunistic considering their early position on your wagon which was a fairly small wagon so you seemed prematurely upset about it. I think you've spent too much time rehashing the L-1 pressure vote thing and am wondering why you haven't moved on to scumhunting.

heartless86 then why aren’t you voting us?

/burp

we are

so you are, my bad. I missed that when I went back to look.

bella, what are your reads?

Because I know that you have a part of your brain that wants to ignore all reason in favor of your crush on Bellaphant, I will allow you to gather your thoughts and make a read on her. As a sign of good faith, I'll move the vote. I really think sorting this hydra should be one of the top priorities here, and don't give me some procrastinating bullshit about "wait until Day 2" or some such. Do it now.

Bella and I are both strong enough players that not being able to sort us on day 1 makes sense. I don't think I've done anything alignment indicative at all yet. Nothing's come up that I feel i would have reacted to differently if I were scum. Bella and Ika know each other pretty well and they've hydraed together. Ika was dead by the time I replaced into WDPT and I don't think we've played together otherwise so it makes sense he'd be better at sorting her than sorting me.

I actually saw your post in the "Hands with a Name" thread of GTKAS. Your hands look feminine and your nails are well-manicured, so I thought you were a woman.

Apologies if I'm incorrect in that deduction.

Thank you for the explanation. I try to stay on top of who knows what about me and I tend to get a little paranoid if someone knows more than they should because it can indicate pregame chat of some sort. Not just gender stuff (and there are plenty of innocuous reasons why someone might use a pronoun that's why i ask before I start tunnelling) but also people knowing more than they should about my playstyle is something I look out for (people who haven't played with me yet but are not underestimating me despite my fairly recent join date, etc.)

There are also offline reasons why I'm a bit paranoid about infosec but I'm not willing to explain that further.

Spoiler: plotinus' gender

I did come out as "not a boy" in my 1st newbie game because I said something that made another player uncomfortable and i realised she thought I was a man twice her age saying it which would have been creepy, when I'd meant it as an older female bodied person to younger female bodied person interaction, but after that some people did start using she for me but people who hadn't seen that interaction mostly don't, and sometimes I am sometimes okay with people using whatever pronoun, sometimes he is more right and sometimes she is more right and I don't expect people to be able to tell when to use which so they is always okay but I'm female assigned at birth genderqueer and it's the tail end of the dysphoric time of the month and so I'm probably going to overreact to anything that reminds me that I have a body right now.

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

You can snip the parts of longer quotes that you aren't replying to. Just saying.

Ika'll be easy to sort because he's got a really obvious tell that he doesn't seem to want to work on. He's town for now.

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

You can snip the parts of longer quotes that you aren't replying to. Just saying.

Ika'll be easy to sort because he's got a really obvious tell that he doesn't seem to want to work on. He's town for now.

--Plotinus

my activity levels?

yeah. i mean i'm not going to 100% conftown you just for being active; that would be reckless. But you being active is a positive sign in your favour. I'm mostly going to trust Bella to be able to read you because she knows you better than I do, but I'll be trying too.

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

139 140

Don't worry, TTH, you know I only have eyes for you.

I feel like you are pushing us over silly things, then getting a 'flustered' reaction when we try to explain. Rather than try and work out what we mean, you are interpreting things in their worst degree. We're gonna get ourselves into an extra feedback loop if we carry on like this, so: why don't you leave reading us for today, and we'll both focus on scum outside me/you.

(Also, if we are scum, baiting us into slipping won't work, it just makes me wanna crush town )

I will answer your questions, though, 'coz we've worked together well before. I said I was trying to work out what it meant for your alignment - not that it was a scum tell, but that it had surprised me you'd used the same thing on us twice, when you knew we were town before. You've kinda explained that.

(This game? I was still town-reading you from your entrance, ironically, and having happy flashbacks to 603. Where, I believed, we mostly interacted with TTH, which is why I wanted 'more tth'. I actually want to sort your slot. I'm finding both heads slightly scummy, but I think some of is failure to communicate rn)

Let's not let scum hide under our noise - we've got firebringer for that

-bx

also, mod, I'm vla-ish til monday. Plot's got it.

[Rainbow Unicat]

Welcome Aristophanes, nice to see another ancient greek. I was born two centuries after you so it is nice to meet in the afterlife.

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

Are we scumreading you for the wrong reasons?

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

Who are your scumreads and why, DoNotTrustMe?

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

@rainbow unicat don't avoid my question.

which question? this one that we responded to and then you responded back?

There was a decent chance of a wagon forming on me, scum would want to get on early.
Why is everyone scumreading me for a post that wasn't particularly good but was in no way scummy? Only way in which that could be scummy is if vedith was scum, and why would you vote me rather than an existing wagon?
Also rainbow you didn't explain your scumread on me.

I felt you were being overly defensive. I thought it was weird that you felt simple hope was being opportunistic considering their early position on your wagon which was a fairly small wagon so you seemed prematurely upset about it. I think you've spent too much time rehashing the L-1 pressure vote thing and am wondering why you haven't moved on to scumhunting.

I felt the timing and style of the vote was opportunistic, not just the position. I keep re-hashing the L-1 thing because people keep asking me about it.

Please can someone actually give a valid reasob for scumreading me?

Are we scumreading you for the wrong reasons?

Is the answer to our question in 187 yes or no?

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

Ok, catching up:

@firebringer, explain your read on ika? You gonna vote soon? You don't seem to be sorting the game.

@ika - I'm pretty sure you are town. Yay. Thoughts on ^? Right now I'd kinda like to lynch him as a) he's not scum-hunting and b) to avoid the noise. (Also, your vote is doing nothing rn. Same for random.)

Ari's posting looks really town to me on the surface, but I paranoid about buddying. @Ari, top scum/town reads? (Are you an alt, your ika comment seemed like you had knowledge ) Can you talk to me about Random some more?

@Veid - I'd like to think you were town, but what's so good about our readslist?

@Montosh, ASP - I have no idea where your heads are at. Questions, thoughts, comments?


Lots of questions, will be around for any you wanna throw this way.

-b

[Rainbow Unicat]

Fire, that is not an answer to our question, but you picked up on the voting hint

@veid, cool, what does your reads list look like, and why?

[Rainbow Unicat]

if that were anybody but jeanne I'd vote that.

@ASP, you have my sympathy. You tried to do her a good turn for her AtE in the signups thread and this is how she repays you, eh? Anyway, I know this sort of behaviour isn't alignment indicative for her and I'll try to read you based on your own play.

@Jeanne don't talk about ongoing games.

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

@Heartless: So you write a post saying that you think people's problem with anti is his playstyle, and then you write a post basically attacking us for ours. That's nice.

Neither of us are particularly enjoying this game; maybe that's what you're picking up on about us.


Spent a while reading the thread in order to see if I could see where anti was coming from about the newbie game and where you were coming from about people scumreading anti for his playstyle, because I hadn't remembered there being anybody scumreading you (except for firebringer's 25 which looked more like a joke) before anti's newbie game post, but there were quite a few people voicing unease about him in particular after his newbie game post, right before your post about his playstyle (aristophanes, fire, montosh, not sure if I should include bella or not.) So that's fair enough, and I know how frustrating it is to be scumread for non alignment indicative playstyle reasons that I cannot help.


Anyway, I stared at your ISO for a while to see if you were doing more than just tunnelling us and you have in fact interacted with all the slots in the game so far. You don't seem to have the right amount of townreads, but it's early yet I suppose.

So far you've pushed everyone at least a little bit, except for ika, varian, vedith, and wanderer. I guess those are your townreads.

There are a few concerns with your ISO but I'll wait another 10 pages before pointing them out because it's premature at this time. If you're town, they'll fix themselves.


The firebringer complaint was fair enough, especially given wanderer's experience with him. Also, I've been growing uneasy about sharing a wagon with DoNotTrustMe. I could do Random or DoNotTrustMe toDay.

VOTE: RandomMidget L-2

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

@Heartless: So you write a post saying that you think people's problem with anti is his playstyle, and then you write a post basically attacking us for ours. That's

congrats on showing you have no idea which one of us is posting

Yeah, I can't tell you apart because you're both looking at the game from a very similar perspective and taking similar stances to each other. Also, I've never played with either of you before. All I know about anti is that sometimes keyboard mashing so if he does that then I know it's him, but otherwise no clue. Keyboard mash more often if you want Plotinus to know who's talking.

GIVE ME A POST WITH A HEART

I'm in 6 games and this game is literally last priority. That's just how it worked out. I'm still playing but my

<3

isn't in this one. I'm sorry.


Anyway last night I had either a gamesolving stroke of genius or a flight of fancy (probably the latter because lol page 11. + day 1 preflip associatives are terribad, but Bella sees it too for one of the links; the other is more tenuous and it's complicated by the fact that they're townreading me and I'm going through this phase or something where I react to being townread with extreme paranoia that I then have to figure out how to resolve without polluting the gamethread with it).

UNVOTE: randommidget just in case it was the former.

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

Not reading the thread is a towntell?

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

@firebringer, why is heartless town? What changed from 185? What happened to make you switch off your montosh vote so early? Random only made one post inbetween...

@Veid, thoughts on mont and asp? Them, with donot and random do seem like 'okay' lynches, but a lot of your 'ok' lynches are lurkers. (Wondering why Ika gets your top 'not lynch spot', tbh)

@heart, heart comments are noted, but the game seems slow and I'm wondering what you wanted out of us with the early push. I'm a little frustrated at the fact the top three posters are ika (who hates day 1), your slot which I'm having trouble sorting, and firebringer who is, at times, incomprehensible We'll do better tomorrow. <3

[Rainbow Unicat]

Hey, I meant Simple hope, I forgot they were hydra-ing

Little interest means vt? I can't agree with you there - can you expand?

picking up bella's post

[Rainbow Unicat]

let's go back to wagonning vedith. I'm going to make a case. This PR hunting thing is just the cherry on top. There's a lot more to talk about in his ISO.

VOTE: Vedith

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

Evening all.

weak entrance.

I'm not worried about the votes on me. A little too easy of a wagon without a real reason, but hey.

I townread him this initially but now it looks like "hey look at me not being worried"

As for a vote, i'll go with the theory of 3rd vote is always scum.

VOTE: TheCow

Weak reason for a vote. Did you find this on some wiki page that hasn't been updated since 2006?

I guess you missed the 'votes before me' part. Meaning the votes before my post. Couldn't see one from you so my comment still stands.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not worried to if you find me scum or town yet because in my opinion, no one should be read as town yet anyway. I'm just making sure that people don't think I'm not interested in the game.

Overly concerned with how he looks and wanting to appear nonchalant, yet most of his comments to this point are about the wagon on him and about how unconcerned he is about it. This is reminding me of the time when I was 8 that I was trying to be quiet and sneaky so i talked out loud about how quiet and sneaky i was being as if doing so would make me invisible.

Going through the posts, there is so much waste that Mafia can hide easily under this imo. I'll be looking through to anyone who looks additionally quieter than before hand.

That hasn't been my impression of this game at all. If anything, it's been overly quiet.

Given that, if Ika can read certain people well that is always good for us unless he is Mafia of course (I can't see a bold move like to being structured so early without pressure).

This is doubtcasting and i see it a lot in games where a newer player is trying to keep the lynch pool open as wide as they can, being suspicious of the more experienced players or being suspicious of players who will be an asset to the town if they're town. If you're town, the player you're saying that has a 75% chance of being town. Casting suspicion on people with experience or who are coming out and taking responsibility for being able to read other people is not getting us closer to solving the game.

I'm not sure what Firebringer aims to gain with his actions, but saying that you are trying to buddy with people as a strategy could be to divert attention from being scum.

what does this even mean?

Haven't really seen much from Firebringer.

I agree with Firebringer. How can you vote him for being not posting a lot when he has been more productive than yourself?
And in fairness, so many posts on here have side tracked from scum hunting which is partially the reason it is a lot slower now imo.

In your last post, it looked like you were attacking Firebringer when you said you're not sure what he's aiming to gain with his actions. The tone of that disapproving so it looked like you were pushing him. Now you're agreeing with him and trying to work together with him. hmm.

Haven't really seen much from Firebringer.

VOTE: Firebringer

As I said earlier, DNTM is a low poster in general but his vote on Firebringer is such a weak vote as there are many players without proper participation.
I see Firebringer as too bold to put him higher on my scum list, but it looks like that he is trying to push attention over to someone who will stand out.

What? You're agreeing with DNTM in one sentence that we haven't seen much from Firebringer -- you say the vote is only weak because there are other people who are acting similarly, not because it isn't true. But in the next breath you say that he has been too bold in his contributions to be scum, which means you feel you have seen much from Firebringer. And then the "but" clause towards the end so that you can position yourself to go back on this read later if you have to. This reeks of "I don't want to mislynch him...yet."

The top 3 people that I feel would be a beneficial lynch overall are obviously TheCow, RandomMidget and DNTM.

If anything, these 3 will provide information imo without voting for someone that I feel less scum about.

You want to lynch these three people "for information"

Spoiler: obligatory meme

This is a lukewarm temperature sweep of current suspicions, nothing more.

Well, I mainly mean the voting. My main point to that comment was that I feel these 3 are scummier than the others, any lynch will give information overall.

They're the 3 people who had the most heat on them, that's for sure.

It's interesting that you are stating that you don't scum read TheCow. If TheCow flipped scum, I would expect this too be far too obvious for you to also be scum considering they are currently in vote lead.

What does this even mean? A minute ago you also didn't include TheCow in the acceptable lynch pool, now you find it interesting that someone else doesn't?

Well, I'm starting to lean to DNTM, just because of his last vote, but TheCow hasn't really done enough to justify the easy swap from myself to RandomMidget without an actual reason (Even if he did unvote after people questioned).

you are thinking waaaaay too much about who you're properly positioned to vote. This is not a town mindset.

RandomMidget is my least favorite to lynch out of those 3. I think the reason most people suspect him more is because of putting me to L1, right? Well, I don't think that's an unreasonable move from him.

He's in your lynch pool, but you don't have your own reasons for wanting him lynched. You only have other people's reasons that they found him suspicious for putting you at L1. And you want to stress that you don't mind being put at L1, that you are nonchalant and laid back about this whole thing. Look at me I'm so sneaky nobody can see me if I talk loudly about how sneaky I am.

I also think that if either Ika or Firebringer were to flip Mafia, the other would most likely flip town.

Preflip associatives are bad. If one of these two flips town and Vedith goes after the other one, remember this post.

@Veid - I'd like to think you were town, but what's so good about our readslist?

As in who is scummier than others. A few tweaks and I it's a long the lines of what I think.

okay this was interesting both because I checked and I couldn't find any mention of us in Vedith's ISO before this post, so bella must have been confused about who had complimented our readslist, but Vedith himself doesn't notice this either, doesn't say "I haven't said anything about your readslist" (please someone linking me if he said something after all but I checked his ISO and I used ctrl f and the word "reads" doesn't even appear in his ISO before now, same for "rainbow" which is what he calls us later so idk). Instead he just casually accepts it as if he'd said something about our reads list and tries to substantiate what he thinks he said about us.

So what's good about our reads list? he doesn't know; he vaguely thinks he agrees with it, would change a few things but doesn't say what those things are, doesn't ask us to explain the reads he disagrees with or try to convince of us anything. It's almost like he hasn't read our readslist at all.

@Rainbow, here are my reads (Although I'm more of a bad lynch good lynch rather than town or Mafia).

ok, but you could just call bad lynch = town, ok lynch = null, good lynch = scum.

Ika - Can be read well apparently by Rainbow. (I would suggest that this is looked out for later game for if both are Mafia). Ika seems to have a lot of wasteful posts but I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt here.

You put Ika in the town category but you talk about him the way you talk about a nullscum read.

Firebringer - Comes across as scummy but as I already said, far too bold imo.

Too scummy to be scum? I mean, I agree with you that Firebringer is probably town and making waves like he is doing is beneficial but.

Aristophanes - Only 5 posts, but they seem to be good posts with decent information.

Aristophanes had a predecessor; Persivul. Persivul had 13 posts. Persivul had the same role PM that Aristophanes now has. I'm also townreading them but why are you ignoring Persivul's contributions?

Heartless - Just makes it into this slot, pretty active and in your face with opinions, however, I think that some of the opinions seem like they are all over the place.

translation: "they're scumhunting and being active and having opinions but I need to be able to turn on them later." Keep sitting on that fence and you'll go the way of Humpty Dumpty.

Varian- - The focus on RandomMidget worries me. He says that a part of the reason if because he hasn't been scum hunting but that could be said for a few.

This is not an ok reason to lynch someone before there are flips to work with.

Montosh - I haven't really seen much information which can be classed as useful so far.

the lurker, yeah.

A Simple Hope - I haven't seen anything that hasn't already been said. This is one of the main people that I mean in Varian's comment. I haven't yet seen any scummy actions either but it is hard when they only have 7 posts.

another lurker.

TheCow - Well, I'm voting for TheCow so I would obviously think a good lynch. Al though I would appreciate involvement once he is back for me to change my mind. Still unhappy with how easily he voted for me and unvoted.

You've been voteparked on TheCow since . Voteparking is scummy. TheCow's just another lurker like Montosh and Simple Hope.

DNTM - I really just don't like his vote reason, apart from that I haven't seen him play any differently to when I last played with him.

another tepid opinion about a slot that has been getting some attention.

RandomMidget - I still think that this argument against him was formed too easily. That being said, now he is at L2, I would like to see what he has to say.

translation: "everyone else is voting him, but i wouldn't mind voting him too, but he's probably not scum" this is really fencesitty.

Post [post]45, Post 64, Post 75, Post 109, Post 134, Post 149 And I think you can see my point.

All of these posts are giving reads on people or questions that seem to follow up with the reads. I haven't really seen anything scummy, even after your idea of the reaction to being called 'her'.

I feel like you're white knighting us here but I'm also going through a really annoying paranoia phase where I overreact to being townread or defended so IDEK but I'm trying not to pollute the thread with it because I know it's not going to make things better.

What's the rush?
I'm not the type to keep flicking backwards and forwards with votes. I'll say my peace, and vote accordingly.

piece.

Also, you're not in danger of flicking backwards and forwards with your votes. You've been voteparked on TheCow since 40. You've spent so much time worrying about whether you've positioned yourself properly to vote somebody else or not and hemming and hawing that you've fallen into the other scummy category of not moving your vote often enough.

Also the rush is that the deadline is in 3 days (5, at the time of your post).

I'm hoping that with all of these prods that there will be a lot more input within the next 4 days.

(Going to sound like a broken record) I'm not really sure what more there is to go forward without more participation in productive posting.

This post does not further the game state or contribute to it and its only purpose is to improve your image.

Well, Montosh seems to have little interest in the game so I would lean to VT.

And here the PR hunting starts. (Also, I think you're bad at PR hunting but you should get one of your buddies to explain it to you tonight. I'm guessing you don't have daytalk or someone would have yelled at you in private by now.)

Aristophanes has good posts for me so far and hasn't posted for the sake of posting, or so it seems.

Unlike you.

@Wanderer - How is me saying that putting me at L1 is reasonable countering against having pressure on him? You have just put different comments together to make them look like one. Not sure I like this scum like tactic from you, buddy.
Even if a person from my bad lynch section was on L2 I wouldn't object.

Because you don't really care who gets lynched, do you?

@Rainbow - Not much to expand on. Keep in mind I only said lean to VT, not "He is VT". Just reading to what little he has said makes me think that even if you disagree.

lol, no.

Again... I never said "I THINK THIS GUY IS A VT". I was asked my opinion and I gave it.
I guess you chose to ignore that part.

Right, but town isn't trying to differentiate the VTs from the masons. We're trying to differentiate the masons from the scum because both groups will have associative tells (which is another reason that preflip associatives are going to be lolbad in this game.)

Scum very much want to differentiate the VTs from the masons. And that's what you're trying to do. Even if you're wrong about Montosh, you're not helping town by speculating on the topic, you're helping scum. But I think you are scum so it's understandable.

Well that's the thing, there are many things this could be productive for. However, going into detail would easily benefit scum.

SEE YOU DEMONSTRATE THAT YOU KNOW THAT PR HUNTING HELPS SCUM AND YET YOU DID IT ANYWAY.

Let me ask you this, If most people say "X is town", how does that help town? If they are, won't they be a prime target?
If most people say "X looks scummy" If they are town, isn't that giving scum a shield to play on?

lol, no. I could explain what was wrong with this but I'm not interested in coaching you on your nightkill choices. You should have asked your buddies to explain it to you tonight; now you'll have to ask in the dead thread because you're getting lynched.


In conclusion, Vedith is scum, let's flash wagon him.

[Rainbow Unicat]

lol i messed up the post tags in one part. should have previewed probably.

tl;dr: Vedith is scum because:

weak entrance
overly concerned with how he looks
voteparking
reads progression doesn't make sense (and barely exists)
reasons for his reads are pretty bad too
temperature sweeping
PR hunting
scum mindset not town mindset

[Rainbow Unicat]

--Plotinus obviously. Bella could have said it more concisely.

[Rainbow Unicat]

@Vedith: I have made a lot of points against you. If I'm wrong, engage with some of the points. I am not infallible, but I do think I'm right about you.

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

weak entrance - Explained this, last (completed) game I just voted someone as RVS and I was called scum for doing it.
overly concerned with how he looks - I'm more or less concerned now because with less time now to go, I can see this giving a mis lynch, before hand it was more of a case of me answering or trying to be involved rather than concerned how I look.
voteparking - I don't understand this one from you. I'm happy where my vote is, why would that be a reason for me being scum?
reads progression doesn't make sense (and barely exists) - Well, they obviously make more sense to myself as I wrote them, but I can see where you are coming from on here. This thread has been harder than others I've seen to express full opinions on people because of the amount of wasteful posts early on.
reasons for his reads are pretty bad too - As above
temperature sweeping
PR hunting - That is hardly PR hunting.
scum mindset not town mindset - Really not the case, scum mindset would be watching you lot have half the town inactive and just join in, imo of course.

As I said, to why I'm not scum that's my opinion above. However, if each day it's going to ping back to me making me a scum shield, then you might as well just get the lynch over with.

I'll just learn going forward to lurk more in future games and not try to force talk.

I've been thinking about you seriously for three days, actually. Since sometime on page 10, though I'm not sure I could put my finger on it anymore what exact post started me thinking about you.

The answer isn't to lurk more in future games and I'm sorry that I've made you feel that way. I don't think you're bad at mafia. If you're town, I will appologise to you in depth in the postgame or the dead thread. A lot of the things I'm accusing you of are subtle things, not obvious mistakes, so take it as a compliment to your scumgame.

entrance

: yeah, RVS is hard at first. people will call you scum in RVS no matter what you do but they're mostly doing it to see how you respond to them doing it. I thought you

did

respond well to it this game, but then all this other stuff happened that made me change my mind on you.

voteparking

: you put your vote on the cow in post 40. since then, you've mostly ignored them. you talked about them some but you haven't tried to interact with them (which is hard with a lurker but you can always ask them questions and see if they respond eventually or not). you didn't announce that you read was now serious at some point. they're a lurker. a few people said they're always just kinda like that. also, since they're a lurker and haven't really been around to feel pressured by your vote, your vote on them isn't doing much at all. your vote is half of your arsenal in scumhunting if you're town.

Also in one of my games one of the scum spent more than half of his ISO talking about how his votepark on somebody else (who happened to be opposing scum team but that's not why he was voting him).

reads progression

: as the game plays out, people post stuff and you read it and then your opinion of them changes based on what they post. For town aligned players, changes of mind make some amount of sense given the game state even if they're ultimately wrong. There are a few different ways scummy reads progressions can look. The problem with your reads progression is primarily that we can't see where you're coming from or why you go from defending a slot to scumreading it or visa versa:

You go from weakly defending donot in 65 to negative on him in 190 but it's not really clear what happened to change your mind. you flipflop a lot on firebringer (-155 +190 -+226 -+228 -230 +252), ika goes from negative in 155 to positive in 226 to positive and negative both at the same time in 228 and then positive in 252), montosh is null in 252 and positive in 280. the cow is consistently negative except for 226 which is a bit of both positive and negative at once. Your opinion on other slots has not changed yet.

You're not being graded on accuracy (scum after all can be 100% right about their reads if they choose to be and we can only judge your accuracy on our own slots of course). Townies are wrong about their reads all the time anyway.

Temperature sweeping

is something scum do to try to figure out which (mis)lynches are viable and which of their buddies are in danger, then they can decide to signal boost lynches that are popular. Only scumreading people who are popularly considered scummy is a sign of temperature sweeping and/or going after low hanging fruit. (You didn't reply to this one so I'm assuming you're not familiar with the buzzword.)

about the PR hunting

: well, no, technically it's the reverse, vanilla hunting. I don't have an opinion on whether montosh is vanilla (town or mafia goon) or pr, though I think your reasons for thinking he's vanilla are weak. But vanilla hunting narrows the pool of potential masons, so it's antitown.

scum mindset

: not about the trying to get people more active thing[1]. it's more about posts that look like you're positioning yourself to vote one way or another in the future.

[1] my complaint about

that

was that it was

LAMIST

(look at me i'm so town) to which the obvious counter is how can I tell whether you're doing it because you're actually town or because you're trying to imitate your town meta, and the answer is that I can't but fortunately it's not the cornerstone of my case against you.

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

I agree that the lurkers should be poked and prodded until they start participating, but I also think we should be consolidating and avoiding a deadline scramble, so they should probably be pressured with words rather than votes at this stage.

Donot, cow, asp, montosh, your slots have less posts than the mod does. Asp has posted recently, looking forward to seeing more from him. The rest of you need to start having opinions and sharing them.

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

...no? What about my posting gives you the impression that I think he's town?

I'm being civil towards him, but I think he's scum.

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

@Wanderer: hope it gets better and hope you'll be able to stay, but no hard feelings if you can't. Take care of yourself.

@Heartless: can you unpack that a bit for me? Why do you like where our heads are at if you think the person I'm pushing will flip town?

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

@wanderer, *hugs*

plot's added everything else

@random, what was your plan? :S

[Rainbow Unicat]

VOTE: Rainbow Unicat

Their case on Vedith in Post 295 is poor and reeks of opportunism.

1. Scumreading Vedith for a "weak entrance" is bad when spending 30 seconds to look at Vedith's other games will tell you that Vedith has entered the game in a similar way before as town (here's a sample).
   
2. Townreading Vedith for Post 40 and then scumreading him for the same post doesn't make any sense. But the initial townread occurred when the RVS-wagon was dissipating. The scumread occured when other players threw around the possibility of a Vedith lynch.
   
3. The criticism of Vedith's Post 155 and Post 190 is unwarranted. Firebringer said something that doesn't make sense and Vedith questioned it. Firebringer then correctly accused DNTM of hypocrisy. So, Vedith agreed with him. Rainbow twisted a perfectly normal thought process into a scummy contradiction.
   
4. Taking a minute to look at a Vedith reads list in another game where he was town will tell you that there's nothing to be concerned about. He just thinks in terms of good/bad lynches, is hesitant to lynch active players and thinks lurkers are good lynches.
   
5. The PR-hunting accusation is terrible. Scum will keep what they learned about PRs to themselves to talk to their partners at night, not post it in the thread for all to see.
   
6. Asking Firebringer for links to scumgames in Post 75 show they care about meta. But for whatever reason, they cbf to spend 2-3 minutes looking over Vedith's meta.

The entire case looks like an opportunistic way to jump on the Vedith suspicion floating around without taking any care to understand Vedith's thought process.

Other stuff I found scummy:

• Their push on Firebringer was weak and they keep their vote there while calling him "too scummy to be scum."
  
• Their stances for the most part just go with the flow. Despite having an early townread on Random in Post 45, they switch him to a scumread in Post 109 which is suspicious considering Random was getting a lot of pressure and attention and the reasoning is pretty weak (random didn't explain what he learned from a vote).
  
• Their play this game reads like scum trying to mimic the direction that the town's going in and playing it safe.

nice chainsaw. If Vedith flips scum, I'm coming after you toMorrow.

Guys, the scumteam is Vedith/Wingback/Heartless. I saw it on page 10 but the connections just keep getting stronger between them. Trust me please. You can try to lynch me toMorrow if you still want to but we need to lynch Vedith toDay.

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

So what's the connections?
If I were lynched and then flip town, would that stop focus on Heartless and Wingback?

Why are you saying for us to lynch you day 2 if people still want to. You seem so sure that I am scum, and surely if I flipped scum then people wouldn't vote you tomorrow?
This shows me that you have either doubt of knowledge of your claim on me.

I'm not a daycop, so of course I'm not 100% sure. But I'm pretty sure.

And this very post has you assuming that you'll flip scum! What I was actually saying was that if you flipped town I would understand why people would be suspicious of me and might want to try to vote me tomorrow for being wrong. But I don't think I'm wrong about you, and clearly you don't either.

Montosh's replacement chainsaw defending you is one connection. His ties to you were weaker until that happened. I was on the fence about whether I had actually solved the game or not until I read that post.

If I explain too much, you'll start trying to avoid doing the things I'm looking at, which would be telling in its own way. I'd rather go after you one at a time. You're first.

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

I was giving a scenario, obviously I won't flip scum, you just seemed so sure but yet basically saying to lynch you tomorrow.

yet you didn't even consider the scenario in which you might flip town. I said they can

try

to lynch me tomorrow

if people still want to

. If I'm right about you, why would they still want to? If I stop being right at a later point in the game then they could start wanting to again understandably. I am anticipating that people will neither still want to lynch me nor will they succeed if they try, but they can call my bluff on that if they choose to. You on the other hand are anticipating that you'll flip scum.

[qoute="Vedith 354"]Does that mean that shaddowez is also my buddy? I mean, his comment on me was more for than against, right?[/quote]
nah. I think now that he's probably mislynch bait. you're looking at this in an overly simplistic way. And he didn't chainsaw defend you.

I asked for what connections, you have only provided the latest comment on Wingback as one but yet you said Heartless is linked with me?

It's too easy to say XX and YY have connections but I won't say because I don't want them to change what they are doing.

I don't want to do it toDay. I cannot lynch all 3 of you toDay and focusing on all 3 of you at once isn't going to work. We'll talk about associatives after you've flipped.

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

Maybe they're saving him for later? But you're right, I have no reason in particular to think that donot was bad town instead of scum (I haven't seen enough of shaddowez by himself to make a decision about him yet). If I'm wrong about Vedith, I'll look at cases like donot/shaddowez more closely (not because there's any interaction that says if vedith is town then donot is more likely to be scum, but because if i'm wrong about vedith then obviously it's not vedith/montosh/heartless, so it'll be time to re-evaluate the whole game, even though i do also have reasons for thinking each of them are scum independently of the others. but one person at a time)

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

Guys, we're nowhere near a lynch rn and we've got 22 hours. With masons in the game we don't wanna scramble for a quick lynch, so we need to consolidate now. Wingback, heartless, aristo, wanderer, fire, dup and veid your votes need to be being more useful (and heartless is on vla).

Fire, especially: your vote on us is sheeping and came out of no where. What has happened to your other reads?

-b

[Rainbow Unicat]

1) My case on Vedith is not built on associatives. I could build an independent case for any of you but I'm focusing on Vedith today.
2) It is not bananas when Plotinus does it.
3) the associatives are only getting stronger between the people actually posting, obv.
4) defending Vedith is only a small part of it.
5) i'm not getting lynched today please vote vedith.

[Rainbow Unicat]

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

lol

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

You're just scared of my town game.

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

No, I take that back, since I'm not scumreading you. I'm sorry, I'm a bit touchy right now because of offline stuff. You're scared because you find me hard to read. But you should just take my word for it today that Vedith is scum and if I'm wrong then you can come after me tomorrow.

pedit: heh.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Or assume i'm bussing and hop on. whichever.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

If I'm right about you today that you are scum, then I'm going after someone else that I think I'm right about tomorrow.

If I'm wrong about you today and you are town after all, then I am willing to face the wrath of the rest of the town (they can try and fail to lynch me tomorrow if they want), and I will be more open to listening to who other people want to lynch (like shaddowez).

What is so hard to understand about this. There is no contradiction.

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

Veid's vote too way too long to get to us, if he thought our case on him was scummy.

@mod, how long 'til deadline?

-b

[Rainbow Unicat]

Okay, the real reason I’m being cagey and not explaining my opinions in detail is that my cat is dying and I’m having trouble focusing on anything but her right now. Details in the sad thread if you care. I was trying to not go on v/la until she actually died but it’s becoming clear that I’m not fit for company right now.

I will continue trying to post as I’m able. I will stay caught up enough to have opinions in the hydra pt at the very least. I’m sorry.

Plotinus head is v/la for a while, more la than v.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

@Veid - do you know what, I forgot ika was even here they haven't posted content in a week. Why is this a bad lynch?

-b

[Rainbow Unicat]

Fire's random vote is terribad.

@ika, thoughts and feels now you are back?

-b

[Rainbow Unicat]

i'm v/la, but i'm not too v/la to be active in a private thread if i have access to one and/or submit night actions if I have them. I have some of the +- done from yesterday's day phase; I'm behind on it but I did have it complete for several slots. Also, because of the way I work, +- is a lot easier than actually interacting with people and it's a soothing distraction and stuff. I probably could have hit a mason even though I didn't manage to hit a scum yesterday. I am sorry about Vedith and about my behaviour in general yesterday.

I have no idea why the fuck I wasn't nightkilled when I was pretty clearly baiting the nightkill. There are several reasons I think my remaining scumreads would have killed me if they were scum and while I am getting paranoid that I've been left alive so that I'll incorrectly reconsider my reads, I

just

tried doing that in a recently completed scumgame (n1628) and it backfired really badly so I don't even know.

If it's not wingback/heartless/???? then who the fuck is it? Meanwhile, there are people who towards the end of yesterday clearly thought I could be mislynch bait today but I was kinda townreading them for it at the time and now I have to either reconsider that or figure out if they're being framed. ffs I was supposed to be in the dead thread and then I'd be down to a much more manageable 3 ongoing games.

I had suspected wingback was an alt, and now clearly they're someone who has either played with me before or seen me around and respects me as a player despite having just learned that my day 1 play is weaksauce. (I'm not prying; the information that I already have is sufficient for me to draw my own conclusions about your alignment.) People who have played with me before have the sense to night kill me.

It's really hard for me to unsee a pattern once I see it and inertia makes it hard for me to change tracks but I'm trying to reconsider stuff.

@Wingback, I'd had a response typed out to your post 340 but I didn't get it posted before the night phase happened. I saved it, and I'll post it behind a spoiler, but editing it to take into account that vedith flipped town is beyond my capabilities right now. Your defense of vedith was clearly not a chainsaw, though. I'm sorry for saying that it was.

Spoiler: reply to your points from 340

340
1) i'm overextended and meta isn't really my thing
2) i changed my mind and explained why. changing ones mind isn't scummy if you can explain it. we started suspecting vedith on page 10 but we didn't talk about it for a while. you'll have to take our word for it that this is so.
3) i didn't understand those posts and was asking him what he was saying.
4) i wasn't calling him scummy for organising his reads list into good lynch/ bad lynches, i was just complaining about it.
5) if they're good at being scum, that is true. if they're not, it isn't.
6) bella does care about meta. i don't have time for it really and don't get much out of it.

7) we think firebringer is town now. at the time he did look scummy to us but we weren't sure if he was scum or just mislynch bait. he seems townier now that we've got used to him.
8) we had been phoning it in this game, i agree. we were both busy. that has since changed.
9) that is mostly coincidental, or a result of me taking a few pages to decide whether i'd gone crazy or whether i'd actually solved the game. i was encouraged by others seeing some of the things that i was seeing and also posts between the time i first saw it and the time i said something made me more sure that i was right.

also i'm still on v/la for another week but i may be getting into a state where I need to use mafia as a distraction instead of not wanting to be distracted so maybe you'll see more of me.

—Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

Hi Ika, would appreciate input on where your head is at. Don't worry about FB, he doesn't have a case on is and is flinging votes around. @FB - stop being bad, as BBT likes to say. At least give us something to engage with about your vote.

Also, in terms of random, it's not a town-read per-se, it's just people's reason for wanting him to be the lynch were going for the easy option. I'll iso the slot and get back to you with a firmer read.

Heartless and Wanderer are prolly right about the NK. Also, Ika is alive day 2 so this slot can't be scum

@heartless, what are you implying about masons? I'm bad at subtext tonight.

@mod, I know we've had a night phase but Simple Hope and Random haven't posted in a few hours under a week - what's going on with those slots?

-b

[Rainbow Unicat]

Fire, do you want to talk? Is this about how you townread me in Lazy Mod Mafia? We can talk about that now that it's over if you want. Is this because you're mad that I was wrong about Vedith? Because I was wrong about Vedith. I saw something that wasn't there about Vedith. (Sorry Vedith, it's not you, it's me.)

It feels like you've unvoted us because nobody is listening to you, not because you're no longer scumreading us. I still mostly feel like this argument between us is TvT so I'd like to resolve it in some way if we can. You can ask me anything you like and I will answer to the best of my ability.

Do you have any other scumreads besides us and Ika who has been defending us?

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

oh, yeah, it's nighttime in America. I forgot.

I wasn't interpreting it as a grudge, more like "wow, I townread them incorrectly in that one game, maybe I've townread them incorrectly here, too," because you started getting paranoid of us right after we flipped scum there so that's why I thought that.

I didn't think Vedith was an easy target when I started suspecting him. There'd been early wagon against him but he'd defended himself pretty well and most of the suspicion had died down. It's true that some suspicion was rising again due to the PR hunting thing, and I did feel that I had more material on him than on my other scumreads to make a case with, but I thought donot, random, and thecow (and simple hope when I can remember that they're in this game) were all much lower hanging fruit at the time and I probably would have had an easier time lynching any of them than I did with lynching Vedith. I had to push pretty hard to get him lynched and that just confirmation biased me further because usually it's pretty easy to lynch town because scum will help you.

I went after Vedith because I believed that he was scum and because I had given into the siren call of preflip associatives when I do actually know better than to do that I was just...being bad. But the prefliip associatives were more like icing on a cake that I thought was already baked. It was nice that Vedith seemed to fit in with my other scumreads, but I left the reasons I thought he fit in with them out of my case on him because I did feel my case stood alone.

I'm now in the position of having to figure out if my other scumreads still make sense and if one of the people I had previously classified as low hanging fruit is actually scum instead, independently. It is also possible that I'm townreading someone incorrectly.

So that's where I'm at.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Fire, do you want to talk?

I definitely do because I've come back full circle into scum reading you. Now that Vedith flipped town and your credibility's taken a hit, you've bunkered down into this "uncertainty" loop and that wouldn't bother me if not for the fact that there's no evidence that Bella's making any attempt to clear the logjam.

Is there anything in particular you want to talk to me about?

I agree it would be nice if the head that wasn't v/la was posting more often.

town: wanderer, aristophanes
probably town: maybe ika, maybe firebringer
lurksacks: duppin, simple hope
still feel like they're scum but they would have nightkilled me probably: wingback, heartless
scummy but my read on them is kind of stale at the moment: randomidget, shaddowez

also I think I liked some of wingback's posts today. i've disliked quite a few of firebringer's posts today. there might have been a shaddowez post or two that I liked as well.
-p

[Rainbow Unicat]

The reason the ika read is slipping is because Bella expected him to be paranoid of her after she won a recent scum game against him. He isn't showing signs of that so that worries me. The reason the firebringer read is slipping is because he still thinks we're mislynchable and also because he's having a hard time articulating why he's scumreading us, which can happen when you're trying to fabricate a read sometimes; I feel like if he were town I'd have an easier time seeing where he's coming from with his read on us even though it's incorrect. and his reads list doesn't match my understanding of the game state very closely.

There are several people that I'm perhaps giving too many points to for being obtuse. There is plenty of stuff in games that I only pick up on when I'm in an informed minority because having some of the information makes it easier to see what other people are doing and anticipate it and get around it.

The lurksacks are lurksacks and need to post more.


Montosh was pretty lacklustre. He was a lurker who all he really did was attack another lurker. Wingback seems competent enough so reading them accurately will take effort and I'll need to see more posts from them. I want to see how they respond to my response to 340. I think that even though Vedith was town, trying to start the wagon on shaddowez wasn't good because we were so close to the deadline we were in danger of a no lynch. They also didn't really stay around to drive the wagon which is what they would need to do if they really wanted another wagon to take off, so it looked like someone who knew that Vedith would flip town and wanted towncred for staying off the wagon. I think wanderer might have said something along those lines too? Their comment at me in 431 is why I thought they would have had the sense to nightkill but now i'm getting paranoid that the entire point of that comment was to say 'hey look i didn't night kill you but i would have'. ugh.

I'm wary of discussing you because I feel like if I tell you what in specific is bothering me you'll just take care to not do it again or to fix it. There are signs that worry me. Now that you have computer access again you might fix it all on your own. It's the sort of things that will usually solve themselves for a town aligned player who is reasonably active and paying attention to a game. I want to give you time to get your heads into the game without my telling you what you need to do to get me to townread you. But I will make an actual case and explain in plain English what I've been noticing when I'm ready.

I'll look at random and shaddowez again. Shaddowez may have been getting obtuse points and random was just the easy reasons like he wasn't scumhunting enough and mostly was being reactionary instead of proactive.

-p

[Rainbow Unicat]

(that was all written before the sherlock holmes comment which is an observation about them that I liked. now to read the other comments)

[Rainbow Unicat]

have read the rest now. i'm alive in 4 games now which is manageable (3 is my limit but 4 is doable. 7 was absolutely crazy and quite probably a mistake) and while I'm still v/la until probably wednesday i'm getting back into things and will be more active from now on I expect.

--p

[Rainbow Unicat]

donot/shaddowez: donot was lacklustre. his read on us was pretty shallow. we were town because we'd produced a readslist apparently. I can think of one or two scum from previous games who didn't manage to produce a readslist but most of the scum i've encountered have been capable of it so far, and i've encountered townies who find the task too arduous (drixx in wdpt spent 40 pages whining about being asked to produce a readslist instead of producing a readslist. he was town.). shaddowez is better at explaining his opinions. i don't agree with all of 326 but I can see where he's coming from. He's uncomfortable voting random because fire is on the wagon but then remembers that bussing exists and hops on.

I feel like we'd done enough by 345 that he should have been able to take a stance on us. calls out wingback in 411 for the things i mentioned just now that it was a bit late to start a new wagon. he does seem pretty aware of how many people would be willing to vote for him, might be a sign that he's doing temperature sweeping but I don't find that scummy 20 hours to the deadline; at other parts of the day phase I would.

He talks about why he's townreading us in 412. His reasons are better and more thought out than his predecessors' were.

I need to see more from him, I think. move him into the null category.

--p

[Rainbow Unicat]

the only thing that would make me worry about ika is if he stopped posting (which he's kinda' done but there's confounding factors that explain it).

yeah that would worry me too. Hopefully he'll be more active now that he has internet again.

i think firebringer's reads list is p decent so i'd kind of like to know your issue w/ it. specifically.

it doesn't match mine I know I know but my issue is that he's townreading my scumreads basically.

also, the profile you're talking about is kind of bullshitty. what evidence in the thread did he presumably have the you were "mislynchable" because now it sounds like you're just making shit up.

well, he was trying to lynch me and i'm a mislynch. that's evidence that he thinks it's possible to lynch me. think back to why you put the brakes on the rainbow train yesterDay and thinks about who didn't see it. I was giving him townpoints for being obtuse. now i'm not so sure.

kjfdl;sjflk;djsa;lfjda;lsjfeipowapujfaiofdsa

I know, I feel that way too.

OH BULLSHIT
yeah, b/c tth and i are TOTALLY the types of players that are apologetic about what we say or how we play the game.
"ooooo can't tell sooper secret" is really lame because it can be made in ANY scenario.

I don't know you. I've never played with either of you before. I can only tell you apart if anti keyboard mashes. The things I'm looking at are the things that I always look at, though. But some of it's stuff that isn't scummy for a player that hasn't had computer access but would be scummy if it continued. it's not playstyle related. I will probably feel like discussing it before the end of this day phase.

But fine, I'll throw you a bone. Just the one, though. Your hydra dissonance on montosh looked really fake. And more notably, it was the only instance of hydra dissonance that you had until you got to Vedith (which also affected my confirmation bias about Vedith). I know this is a minority opinion, but I appreciate hydra dissonance because it gives me two trajectories to look at and two chances at reading a slot. I read ISOs very closely and it helps me to look at the game from another player's eyes. Hydra dissonance gives me two chances to get it right and figure out what the player is doing for the game and how they're interacting with it and what their mindset is like and is it a town mindset or a scum mindset.

Different hydras are going to have different approaches to dissonance and a hydra that has played lots of games together (like yours) with players who seem to know each other very well and are able to anticipate what one another thinks will have less hydra dissonance than two players in their first hydra with very different playstyles. I'm taking that into account. Also, I know that I'm like the only person who likes to see some dissonance (but I find too much of it to be scummy as well, treating the game thread like the hydra PT and arguing in public and switching the vote every post back and forth is fake and scummy and Oranje Crush did that in WDPT so don't do that either). Also from WDPT there was another hydra that had almost no dissonance in public but you could tell they were having quite a bit in private. they were town.

I'm not explaining it well but I'm trying to say that I'm not approaching it in a simplistic black and white fashion. I'm not asking you to do more dissonance either because you can't just manufacture it if it's not happening (unless you're scum of course, but you're trying to keep track of what your townself would think and you clearly think your townself would agree with TTH about everything but montosh/vedith).

tl;dr: The dissonance about montosh (and vedith) both looked fake to me.

I'll look at random and shaddowez again. Shaddowez may have been getting obtuse points and random was just the easy reasons like he wasn't scumhunting enough and mostly was being reactionary instead of proactive.

ok... this is where the "reactionary is a scumtell" principle runs afoul of duppin getting dumped into the "null lurker squirrels chewed his nuts off" bin.[/quote]
*shrug*

pedit: oh, yeah i wanted to reply to that too. duppin said it well, but like if you're townreading someone specifically because you thought you picked up on mason crumbs you could just...put them into the part of the readslist they'd belong in if you hadn't picked up on those crumbs? BBT taught me that in an early game of my mine when I was townreading someone who had done nothing at all and i put her as my top townread because i thought i saw a PR crumb and then BBT asks why i was townreading her and I had the sense not to say "because I think she's crumbing something" but I had to say " er um well gut i guess" and then we talked about it after the game and I learned to put people I think are PRs but who are otherwise being lacklustre in the lacklustre category not in the "my inexplicable top townreads category"

-p

[Rainbow Unicat]

not offended. I'm actually personally a bit less likely to be able to judge that kind of thing anyway, but Bella and I both saw it independently so that felt stronger. But, I get it. And genuine is a nulltell for me.

Um I am not even going to bother. I respond to votes on me, what a surprise. This happened in the game we played as well. When there was no pressure on me, I waited for things to happen or people to show up and then push where I see fit.

ew. This is not good. If everyone waits for things to happen then nothing happens. We're over 500 posts into this game, even if nothing new is happening (which is not the case), you can reach out to people in specific with questions about stuff they've said recently or try to work on your null reads or do anything but wait for other people to play the game. Came across this recently http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=21886, i'm thinking of adding it to my IC wall for newbie games.

tth and i have played...................... 13 games in this hydra now over the course of a year and we've known each other personally for 20+ years.

we've also got a method to the madness behind the scenes that we might write an md thread about but probably not. pm me about it postgame if you really want to know.

I saw it was your hydras scumday recently. And I think it was this game that you said something about eating breakfast together so yeah lots of signs that you are people who know each other really well. I've been trying to account for that. am curious about your methods but respect your privacy. I don't mind discussing my own when we have 0 ongoing games together.

pedit: that's true, but if you honestly think the correct strategy for masons is to list each other as their inexplicable top townreads then asdfjékasjdgüwgó.

-p

[Rainbow Unicat]

(the pedit was @heartless not @duppin)

[Rainbow Unicat]

Maybe? Here's how I was understanding it: you wait to talk to people until they produce something to talk about. It's not about voting it's about needing to be pushing your scumreads even if they haven't showed up or needing to try to sort your null reads even if they're not there. If they're not online right now just leave questions for them for later. It looks scummy because it looks like you're having trouble jumping into the fray/that you're not willing to make waves. Sometimes, especially with newer players, scum get into a state where they're afraid to post anything because the game state feels really fragile and they can see two townies going at it and they don't know how to intervene or if they should intervene or they see a wagon forming and they don't know how to react to that and it gets harder and harder to post. primarily reacting to people talking to/about you can look like that. you haven't done much yet this game and your predecessor didn't either so it looks like you're in a bit of a rut.

I like where you're voting and who you're pushing, though.


pedit: @Ika: no, she hasn't discussed it, we haven't been able to sync in a while. so you game threw? :/ I know she's town obviously I just don't know how you know that she's town but I'm happy to trust her lead on that, it's just she warned me that we might face a little heat after that game and we didn't which surprised me a bit.

-p

[Rainbow Unicat]

@duppin: fair enough.

maybe we're defining "wait for something to happen" differently.

@ika: oh, ok. i didn't realise it was lylo on day 2; that's ridiculous. the game is hardly getting started on day 2. reminds me of that micro i played where we were in lylo on page 6. i had town apathy on page 2 of that game.

@duppin: I agree that heartless are scummy.

-p

[Rainbow Unicat]

Okay, I have re-read the entire fucking thread and iso-d everyone, and I have reads and new thoughts. Some of them are surprising, even to me. First, m new reads-list. @Heartless, you wanted heart, and this is it.

In order:

town: wanderer, ika, fb, heartless(?!), wingback (I think their predecessor was just bad?)!!?

Ugh - duppin, random

Scum - ari, asp, shad.

Some explanations, links, a couple of questions:

Wanderer: asking the right questions, 99 is a good response to ika and she's worked through the issue she had with him not wanting heartless/us lynched logically. vote in 179 is good. Page 9 is a sensible reads set. Frustration in 255 seems genuine. 282 is the start of the veidth push. 333 shares some of my thoughts. 357 is perf. I'm not sure about the 436 readslists.

Ika: his early game doesn't seem like scum-ika. wtf is 212 tho? Wtf is page 9, really. 240 is bad - what reads does FB have?? ika's content is really lacking rn, but I know he had internet issues. ika's sudden launch into masons is strange. 510 is a good response to plot. This is a terrible read, I kinda know, but it's gut.

fb: 25 is bad, 67 - prolly not scum partner signalling, but buddying? I don't know what is going on with the page 6 convo with pers. 145 is trolly. 188 is BAD. 191 - finally, a decent question. 200 - again, a post that doesn't make me wanna vig him. 208 as well. I like 268. Shoot me, but 327 is a good response to pressure. Stop voting us, it's bad. 343. 418 is bad, but he responds well to why it's bad later. 470 is kinda not terrible. (one of your town-reads is scum, btw )

Heartless: and 85 is where my town-read went to pot. I just played a game with hearltess with a similar playlist, and we had none of this nonsense. But 88 feels better - she's scum-readig similar to me. The issues here is FB and DNTM are kinda low hanging fruit. The discussion about awkwardness was too much emotion from me, as was the crush comment. Sorry, pms! The montosh vote makes sense. But then they unvote I like 181 bc they explain they voted for a reason I would also vote for. I like 223. 381 is a good vote. the immediate vote switch to us is weird. Anti, talk to us? Also, llak to us about why you are speculating about masons? 485 is a good question about the town-list.

Mont/wing: I'm on page 6 and I have no feelings about this slot. 138 - using vca to judge his reads, and still feels nully about the game? not asking any questions to improve this. 166 is just agreeing to things, not new info/positions. 340 is way better, even with a vote on us, because a case is made and there is some scum hunting. 361 is asking for an extension, which I've mainly seem from town. 410 <3. 431 is logical. 529 makes my heart happy.


UGH

cow/dup: ditto :S 157 is awkward, and drunk? 424 is bad. 430 is starting to be better. 466 is a push against heartless, about our previous game. While I understand this, as it was my reaction early game, I don't agree with them. doesn't mean scum-motivated tho. This play style argument is bad. Really nully here, please interact with us.


random: equally weird in rvs, but I don't mind the l-1 post. 57 is valid, but more of a worry with ika in the game - is this a message about his SB not hammering? paranoia. His responses to wanderer's question is bad, though. 95 in response to ika and asp shows some scum-hunting. his vote is late on it tho. 186 seems genuine enough. I should feel better about the vote in 274 but I don't like the timing. There isn't much interaction here AND heartless has just called his wagon bad. 355 feels genuine and the votes on him are bad.


SCUM


don/shaw: 33 is a fake reasons for a vote, what is 54? not new information. 82 is equally bad, still talking about rvs. wtf is 123 - he's literally voting about voting. 251 - is still rvs-ing? he then unvotes when prompted. 262 is really avoidant. 290 is terrible, looks like they know veid is not scum, with no interactions. Again, Shad's entry softs veid will flip town? 326 is mainly lruker pressure, but 343 says he doesn't want PL. Hmmm...I don't like 412, but it would've been easier for scum to jump on our wagon. 428 is still a lurker vote.


pers/aristo: 102 mirrored my thoughts then exactly. Don't get page 6 with fb. 136 looks buddy-ing? 180 seems forced? 192 doesn't help with the natural feelings, 'plotella' is kinda gross. Also, he's voted the cow for lurking over FB/DNTM. 196 is better, though. Does ari work in PR? 222 is so...positive. 439 ari is power-lurking. 470 is better, good questions. Content has dropped off, though.

asp: awks opening. 48 seems odd - lamist we don't have day-talk? 'oh, We can't possibly talk anywhere else'. Why ask this in thread? 110 is ok-ish, but varian is obv!town and the cow hadn't made an impression on me at all so far. 182 is an odd opening - if ari is scum, this might be a lynch signal? 236 vt claim is gross, why did no one kick off about it? If asp is scum, aristo is the scum in 299's town list. New content is lacking.

VOTE: shaddow

slipping!!!

[Rainbow Unicat]

Several things that don't make sense to me here. I'll go through them bit by bit:

1. How is Wanderer sheeping Varian to vote a townread in Post 179 a good vote?
   
2. Your townread on me is based on Post 410 which your hydra partner found scummy, Post 431 which you say is logical (what does that even mean?), and Post 529 where I point out several issues I have with Wanderer which directly contradict your reasons for townreading her. I don't understand this flip at all. Did you even read my post before declaring it town?
   
3. I have no clue how you reached your townreads on Firebringer. Half your links about Firebringer don't link back to posts of his. Post 188 and Post 191 were written by DoNotTrustMe. Post 343 was written by Shaddowez. Post 470 was written by Aristophanes. And your links are all broken. What's there to like about Fire's Post 208?
   
4. I can guess that you are talking about Firebringer's reads list as "not terrible" whereas Plotinus had previously attacked it as bad. Why no discussion of this among yourselves earlier?
   
5. Your ika read points out a bunch of things bad about him but then says you townread him for "gut?"
   
6. DoNotTrustMe's posting was terrible yes, but I don't see Shaddowez's Duppin case in Post 428 as lurker pressure. It showed some in-depth thinking. That's what gave me a leaning townread on Shaddowez.

What I like the least about this flip of reads is that they seemed geared to appease Heartless "you wanted heart, and this is it" and possibly appease me. I have a hard time believing that you just went through the game and your reads almost totally flipped around. The way you presented your reads on ika and Firebringer makes me think you are shoehorning them into your townpile despite having better reasons for thinking they are scum than town.

VOTE: Rainbow Unicat

I'm back to this. Anyone townreading Rainbow needs to seriously explain why with actual reasons. "They give me townfeels," "I'll read them tomorow," or "I like their walls" isn't going cut it.

Hi Wingback,

This slot is a hydra: plot's had the reins mainly, but I think we were looking at associative and unfortunately we disagree big time around one read: the heartless slot. Which has led to some confusion. Ika and Firebringer are more gut - look at there content compared to others and ofc I've got less of a justification on them.

In terms of your questions:

1) She justifies her reasons for sheeping. It's not just 'oooo, shiny', I feel there's thought in it.
2) I don't have to agree with you to think you have a legitimate thought process. What I'm looking for is a progression of ideas and someone's words having follow through. Your post has this.
3) True, some of my numbers are off by a few, sorry! Like you said, 470 should be 474, etc. 208 is pushing Ari about his reads, and is a continuation from 200.
4) I like most of his town-reads. He has issues with shadows. It's not miles apart from where my head is.
5) in terms of shadow's push, there's nothing really in it. It's 70% about the lack of content/fluff/lurking, and about 30% lack of follow through. Also, what is 'Additionally, 383 comments regarding not liking the Rainbow train at all, which only had 2 people on it, one of which was Vedith.' meant to prove?

VOTE: duppin

Random, talk to me Throw some questions my way.

-b

[Rainbow Unicat]

(i'm just happy my other head is participating even though we don't seem to agree on very much. I *still* think heartless is scum.)

--p

[Rainbow Unicat]

still feel like they're scum but they would have nightkilled me probably: wingback, heartless

Rainbow

- Could you please explain these reads a little more? Are you town-reading them because you think they would have NKed you, or are you still scumreading themeven with your byline? Is there anybody else in the game that would have scumread them for killing you, making it a tougher decision for them to do so?

yes, I think they both could have assumed a few other people would know who to suspect and why. I'm less sure about wingback now but mostly because of Bella I think? I still feel like heartless is scum. I now mostly think nightkill analysis isn't going to get me as far as I'd hoped.

Shaddowez may have been getting obtuse points

I feel like I should be offended here - is there something particular that you need me to explain from any of my reads? Or did you mean obscure?

>.> sorry. I was either insulting your PR hunting skills or implying that you weren't PR hunting. On day 1, I was considering lack of PR hunting a towntell, especially lack of picking up on PR tells that I felt were obvious. After the nightkill, I'm worried that I was too generous; it is possible the scum team does not have capability to pick up on things that I feel are obvious. Please don't ask me to elaborate further on this; it is antitown.

The rest of your questions were for Bella so I'll let her answer those.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

ugh, neither of us got to this game yesterday.

<snip>
still feel like they're scum but they would have nightkilled me probably: wingback, heartless
<snip>

This is probably the worst reason for a (what I assume is a gut) scum read I've seen.
Noncommital as hell. I'm not even sure if it counts as a scum or a null read.

"I feel like they're scum but I have reservations." That's me taking a stance. Count it as a scumlean.

also I think I liked some of wingback's posts today. i've disliked quite a few of firebringer's posts today. there might have been a shaddowez post or two that I liked as well.
-p

Yet these had no bearings on your reads??

Of course it did, hence what you saw above!

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Given the setup and lack of investigative roles, if there's one scum I predict will go deep to endgame, it's probably Rainbow.

How does that work when there are so many people scumreading us? I mean I get that you're complementing my scum game, and I'm flattered, but this isn't it, and I don't think it makes sense given the game state.

Lynching them isn't something I want to delay as scum can strategically plan out nightkills to make them harder and harder to lynch as the days go by.

nononono fuck no. I'm kind of townleaning this paranoia attack of yours because I *just* deathtunnelled a fellow townie in that fucking micro for wanting to policy lynch me for being obvtown (same hydra as this one) when I should have read between the lines that the person who backup modded my first scum game was scared of my scumgame not my towngame but I'm having trouble picking up on social cues more so than usual lately. But you are not going to drive a lynch on us just because you think we'll be harder to lynch later. If we make it to LYLO feel free to get paranoid. Not before. Either take the time to learn how to actually read me or make a case for why I'm scum but none of this well Plot is good at this game sometimes so we should lynch them because as town I am also sometimes good at this and also sometimes capable of being an asset to the town, though I'll be the first to admit that I've got off to a rocky start this game.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

how's the uber hydra dissonance going over in rainbowcat land?

we haven't talked in a couple days. :/

I figured out where I went wrong on Day 1. I mean aside from the obvious.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Ok this is embarrassing but I thought the scumteam were crumbing masons with each other. That was stupid. It is idiotic to crumb masons with your scumbuddies. What you do is you crumb masons with random townies to implicate them after your death. Duh. I don't think all of them are doing it, though.

I need to go back over things now that I'm no longer holding the idiot ball and especially look for those kind of one sided interactions between the non masons.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Attempting to read people based on behaviour is pretty much impossible for me right now. I'm having a bad run.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

I am doing numbers for the slots I'm behind on but I'm not posting numbers; posting them would be antitown. Going to look at everybody's ISOs. Alphabetical order. Want to look at everybody before figuring out what to do with our vote.

ARISTOPHANES/PERSIVUL

I think persivul doesn’t have that specific problem, but he seemed incapable of expressing a scumread without qualifying that it could be town, too, or visa versa. the fluff exchange with fire bringer in 125 and 127 is weird. think it looks worse for pers than for fire. His not wanting policy lynch ika is strange. Don’t know the back story between them but why in this particular game he doesn’t want to policy ika? unexplained. I also think ika is town but it’s odd.

he also seemed to have a garcia habit and kept his vote on us since rvs, never moving it.

I’d be scum reading this but I scumread him in refraction incorrectly so idk (and i’d rather just forget that refraction happened.)

His replace out is null; he site flaked and I can’t talk about why because ongoing but it wasn’t this game and that’s all that matters.

Aristo’s reads list is…. meh. 192. He has some town reads, a null read, and then 4 lurker reads which he calls scum reads. I’m a little surprised to see firebringer among the lurkers, he had 20 posts by then which is above average. Later clarifies this as active lurkers but I don’t think that’s what active lurking is.

I’m fine with the way he pushes cow and donuts, who are both playing badly. they were lurkers but he’s not just pushing on the lurking.

He defends us against Fire on day 2 in 470 which is fine except that he admits to heartless that he’s only been skimming in 577.

conclusion: i’m not seeing the one specific thing i’m looking for in this read through, but this isn’t a towny ISO. They only have 26 posts but I’m not seeing much of a reads progression and I feel like he should have one by now; it's page 25. Their reads changed when there was a replacement but that's about it. I could vote here later, depends on how the rest of this goes.

[Rainbow Unicat]

You're wrong if you think I have high self esteem. We have already replied to your cases. You made one about me that I replied to and one about Bella that she replied to. They were wrong.

If you don't have town paranoia then you're scum. Plain and simple.

You keep saying things that sound like backhanded compliments and when I try to give you the benefit of the doubt you call me egotistical. It's irritating.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

DUPPIN/THE COW

the cow doesn’t have the problem i’m looking for either.

He doesn’t explain his votes very well/at all.

but little things like their response to fire bringer in 157 when they have 0 completed games makes me think they might not have been scum yet because the obvious counter to their response to fire is that there is no reason for scum to be acting in that manner either, and actually it’s pretty ballsy if fire is scum to be acting like that. their response to heartless is illegible and makes me wonder if they’re still drunk.

and then they fade out.

i like duppin’s push on fire bringer in 424, probably because I don’t think a fire bringer kill would have made sense. he wasn’t universally townread and I didn’t get any impression that he was trying to get himself night killed. but i’ll get to firebringer later.

I can understand his push on heartless. They were bothering us too because they seemed different to bella from a previous game where they were town together. also his reaction to being scumread for what he felt were playstyle reasons felt town to me.

Also the way he outs himself as not a newer player instead of trying to hold that information back reads as town.

His reads progression exists on multiple slots and I can follow along with it.

I feel like duppin has interhited people’s various scum reads on the cow and is having trouble recovering from that since he didn’t start with a clean slate, but I see some things that seem townier than not about him.

--P

and now it's late and i'm tired but i'll look at everybody else tomorrow.

pedit: bloody hell I think I know who you're an alt of. Hi. if i'm right, irritating is a town tell for you. :/ I didn't say that all reads from town were paranoia based stop twisting my words. I said that not having town paranoia is often a scum tell. Having high self esteem is the same thing as being egotistical. You think that I think highly of myself. I don't. Other people seem to. I've been getting burden of profficiencied a lot lately and it ruins games for me. I'm trying to get people to stop doing it to me. Anyway, pot meet kettle, you think the town can't do anything without your help.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Perhaps this is sufficiently vague to protect your privacy: The player that I think you're an alt of correctly identified someone as scum in a recently completed game that I was not in by comparing their play to my town play in a completely different game.

I wouldn't wotc the player in question.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

I'm not opposed but please let me finish ISOing and drawing conclusions before we reach a lynch, we still have about 5-6 days (and i only need 1-2)

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

@ Rainbow

, re: Post 556:

1. Where in Wanderer's Post 179 does she justify her reasons for sheeping? Where's the thought in it? She literally said "
   I agree with you on Random, and so far I've been townleaning on you so I feel rather comfortable sheeping you. VOTE: Randomidget.
   "
   
2. Explain in detail with specifics what progression of thought you saw in my posts.
   
3. Shaddowez's case on Duppin is built on wagon-hopping, lack of follow-up, and waiting for others to validate his vote. He also mentions the fluff and lack of content. I have a lot of trouble seeing how you characterized it purely as a "lurker vote." Flesh it out more in-depth please.

.

1) I literally mean she said she was town-reading him. That's it. It wasn't just a sheep, and the town-read was kinda understandable at that point.
2) Sure. 240 was a silly thing to do as scum before a lynch, bc I can't see what traction you would get. 410 was also a bad move, suggesting you knew what Veid was gonna flip (I will admit it pinged my scumdar at first, but you wouldn't be that dumb). You follow up your shadows push in 529 while continuing to pursue wanderer, who you'd queried previously. Your thought processes are clear, and you are making statements I don't think scum would risk making
3) I'm saying that the 'didn't follow it up' point is also bc the slot was lurking - they hardly followed anything up bc of the lack of engagement. I just don't think you can categorise that as purely scummy, when it's just bad. I'm not arguing with the facts, I'm arguing about suddenly determining intent.

How are 326 or 428 lurker votes? By 326 Fire had around 40 posts, and was definitely not a lurker vote. 428 is partially active lurking, but is also based on voting pattern and reactionism, not proactivism. If I really wanted to just vote a lurker, why wouldn't I be looking at Simple Hope or Wingback, both of whom have low activity (but not low content, IMO).

FB is/was an easy mislynch - he was posting, sure, but the content was lacking. Also, you just kinda agreed with me about the lurker vote - how do you feel about wingback defending you over this. Also, your 'low content' point about wing and asp is what I mean about FB (lacking content), but what content with asp has stood out?

Ok then:
Why are you town?
Do you thimk it would be useful to perform wagon analysis?
What is your read on wingback?
What wagons are you willing to join?

Bc I was shit yesterday. I'd do better as scum For some reason this game is making me feel dumb. That's a bad question, though: why do you think we are/ aren't we town?
Yeah, maybe after a flip today (esp if someone quick-hammers). It is generally something I like (not to Titus' scale ) so I am down for that tomorrow. If you think it's useful today, we've got time.
Town. Plotti and I are thinking we maybe know the alt, and that makes a bit more sense. As I said above, if they are scum they've done some silly things and I don't get a silly vibe from the slot.
Ari. Maybe ika (the lack of posting while always saying we're town has actually really worried me the last few days) still can lynch shadows. You? Actually, all the questions back to you!

@Heartless, your Ari vote made me feel positive about your slot. We know we're being inconsistent rn, but we're both re-reading and we're starting to harmonise a bit more. What did you think you'd seen when you voted ari/us/ari?

@ika, I'm shelving my town-read of you rn. I gave you way too much credit for your early game activity and it's not cutting it anymore, and your sudden burst of activity around the hammer is worrying.

@wingback, have you played with me too? Do you like languages?

-b

[Rainbow Unicat]

@Wanderer: we're curious about wingback but we respect his privacy and we're not interested in pushing him along those lines. if he doesn't respond to our probing we'll drop it (we'll probably drop it regardless).

I need to finish my ISOing (halfway through firebringer's ISO at the moment) before I can answer that confidently but I'm not opposed to it as such. I liked Aristo earlier but I think that was in part because I was tunnelling elsewhere and that was also before he kinda faded into oblivion. I need to see what happens with the rest of the ISOs before I'll know where he ends up on the final readslist; need to see where he is relative to everybody else. I'm doing my thing that helps me to avoid confbias when I do it so I'm trying to set aside what I was thinking before. In WDPT, I went through my biggest scumread's ISO like this and came out with a strong and confident and correct town read and I got paranoid of them in lylo but i shouldn't have.

At the moment I'm only confidently townreading two of the people who've expressed interest in the wagon; many of the others i had concerns about at various times before and I haven't gotten to their ISOs yet so I need to see if I'll still have concerns about them or not, so everyone else is a forced null for now except that i was scumreading them before and might be still, we'll see.

would have done more today but I was unexpectedly able to belatedly pay rent and some other stuff took my time. but I'm going to finish up firebringer's ISO before bed and post about it unless it takes much longer than it's taking.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Bella adds that her read on wingback is based on this game. Mine is too. When someone makes an alt it is common to try for a different playstyle than normal, and he's succeeding at that part of it. (I'm not interested in publically revealing what exactly pinged me that he might be that other person, but it wasn't an alignment indicative sort of thing.) If it is him, I do like this playstyle better than his usual one, and he's irritating me for entirely different reasons than usual. But it's ok. I'll figure out whether it's town-trying-to-get-reactions irritating or scum-trying-to-spin-a-narrative irritating later when I get to his ISO.)

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

finally finished this ISO

FIREBRINGER

fire bringer might actually have the problem if ika’s not scum based on his early interactions with him, BUT his read on ika starts falling around 474 so I think it’s not the problem. Also, I don’t think they’re scum together because if ika’s scum, posts like 67 make me want to rule out a firebringer/ika pairing. 145 too.

and 114 is ballsy too.

his ISO is really fluffy early on and this continues longer than it has any right to, which is irritating but I think he’s just like that.

could be white knighting thecow a bit in 200.

complaining about being left out of someone’s thoughts list in 215 strikes me as town, too. don’t see scum complaining about be overlooked.

ignoring the fluff, i like that he’s taking stances, the stances he’s taking generally make sense given the game state, at least early on.

wings seems to be good at making cases so i can kinda see why he sheeped wings in 342 but it does show a lack of situational awareness. I’ve been struggling to figure out whether that’s a towntell, a scumtell, or a dumbbell all game, but I’m town reading him for the rest of his ISO so far so town I guess. Probably going to depend on the player and their experience and stuff.

he’s back to wagon driving us starting in 437, guess he didn’t like my response to wingback. he invites us in 472 because nobody’s really reacting to him. I think I would have liked to see him make a case instead of just “they’re scum sheep me on this”. It would make it easier to tell whether he’s a townie being misguided about us or scum trying to mislynch us. When I asked he said in 474 that he looked like easy lynchbait, which is a reason I guess, though I could still name a bunch of easier targets.

Posts like 535 remind me so much of another player, zakk, from a previous game of mine, who was town but wrong about all of his reads. zakk’s wagon driving looked a lot like this, he was also a very chaotic player, like firebringer.

and stuff like 630 makes me think that scum would be better at reading between the lines when I don’t know how much more blatant a person can be without roflclaiming so basically I think that he’s tunnelling us and it’s sad but it’s a TvT and I’m not interested in pushing him.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

*unvotes, not invites.

[Rainbow Unicat]

Uggggggh, I think I overdid it on food. I thought being able to eat regularly again would make it easier to think clearly and I think in the longterm that might be true but in the short term it’s just been making me sleepy, I fell asleep before 7pm last night and now it’s 5am and I’m sore and overslept and if two proper meals that aren’t just potatoes and onions in two days is going to make me this sleepy then I should stop wasting money on food even if I can afford it again now. It is really hard to care about long term cognitive benefits at the moment, I just want to be able to rub two thoughts together and get a spark now and then on a short term basis.

Anyway, I have a lot to say about heartless’ ISO because I’ve been tunnelling them all game.


First off, this is what I wrote in our hydra PT on 16th August (so, after I’d made the case on Vedith, but about a day before he was lynched) about why I thought heartless was scum at the time. I like drafting my posts in the hydra PT; this wasn’t intended to stay private as you can tell by my writing “bella” instead of “you”. Some of these opinions have made it into the thread since then but others haven’t so I thought I’d put them here so you’d know where I was coming from at that time.

Spoiler: private notes on why i thought heartless was scum on 16 August

lack of reads progression (not yet scummy because they’ve been on v/la and haven’t been very active, but once they get back they need to start changing their mind on slots and sorting them instead of thinking mostly the same things from the beginning of the game until the end. do not point out that there is a problem with their reads progression until it has already reached the point of it being scummy. if they know what this trap is they will avoid it and then we won’t catch them. they are good players, we can’t tell them in advance.

if they point out that they changed their mind on us it’s because they picked up on it that i was softing masons because i wanted to avoid a deadline scramble, i didn’t want to claim at L-1 with 1 hour left in the day phase because that would be irritating. aside from their reversal on us they haven’t really changed their mind about anything.

the other major problem with them is hydra dissonance and the lack thereof which by itself wouldn’t be scummy because they’ve been hydraing together for a year and apparently live together or something so they know what each other would think BUT there have only been two instances of hydra dissonance and both of them looked really, really, really fake. The first was about montosh, which is when we started suspecting montosh, and the second, strangely enough, has been about vedith, in response to me strong-arming this lynch. (i’m still having vague doubts that i might just be being bad at mafia and seeing things that aren’t there but this all looks so clear and connected and i still feel really sure about this.)

other problems that are hard to articulate/explain are just gut feelings and something about their tone (more TTH’s tone than anti’s actually), their subtle way of discrediting us while complimenting us at the same time “the famous plotinus” seemed sarcastic and like a burden of proficiency thing instead of a compliment, and also some comments towards bella earlier along similar lines made us paranoid that they were going after us because our town game was a threat to them instead of going after us because they’re afraid of our scumgames.

the way they defended vedith in RVS and continued to defend vedith is just icing really; we actually started with this scumread and looked at who they’d tied themselves to, first montosh with that super fake hydra dissonance and then we looked at who montosh had tied himself too and it was vedith, and then we saw the way heartless had also tied themselves to vedith, and heartless’ reaction to our case on vedith seemed suspicious ESPECIALLY the way they seemed to be softing masons with vedith (actually all 3 of these have been softing masons), saying that i couldn’t have the vedith lynch as if they knew what vedith’s alignment was for example. And then montosh’s replacement came in and chainsaw defended vedith against me which was just icing because i’d been suspecting him already.

The way heartless told me in 381 I wasn’t getting a vedith lynch felt more like a crumb than a “bc i’m town reading them” thing but I was pretty deep in my tunnel when I thought that. I didn’t understand why they were resisting the vedith wagon at the time because I thought vedith was scum and then afterwards I still didn’t see how people could townread them without magically knowing their alignment so yeah.

Heartless did manage to read between the lines on day 1 about us, though, and they didn’t nightkill us BUT we were playing pretty shittily on day 1 and if the situation were reversed and I had a nightkill, I’m not sure I’d have night killed a player behaving like I was either because even if I couldn’t easily be mislynched, the way I was playing wasn’t helping the town. I can see that now.

One of my issues with heartless' day 1 play was that their reads progression was almost nonexistent. This can be explained by lack of computer access, so I want to see what happened with their reads on day 2 when they were able to be more active in the thread. The actual content of their reads makes sense and fits the game state well enough. For example, I can understand their issue with duppin/cow in 463 but the argument that followed after that was meh.

(I kind of disagree with the implication in 482 that town shouldn’t be PR hunting because I usually find it helps me figure out which wagons to avoid before they even get started. You don’t put the results in the inexplicable top town reads section of your public reads list, you just find reasons to vote/put pressure elsewhere and then hide the PRs into whatever section of the reads list makes sense based on their behaviour. I agree that it’s antitown to openly PR hunt in ways that help the mafia and that doing it at the expense of scumhunting is scummy. But basically I think that protecting the PRs from the mafia is part of town’s job and doing that effectively requires some amount of disguised PR hunting. This paragraph isn’t about whether heartless is scum or not; it’s a mafia theory disagreement.)

The only thing about 482 that bothers me in an alignment indicative way is that it looked like another mason crumb. It looked like saying “hey I have a role PM related reason to know that my mason partners are town and I’m not going to divulge their names” and that raised my hackles because heartless isn’t a mason. I read this and I wanted to say bullshit, you have a role pm related reason to know that everybody but your two buddies are town; knowing that there are masons in this game isn’t a get out of taking stances free card and producing reads lists periodically is a great way to help the town track your reads progression (which is still basically non existent.)

487 bothered me because it’s the only person at all who attacked my V/LA across multiple games and it felt hypocritical because heartless was v/la for most of day 1 too, and we still managed to be in the top 3 posters despite neither of us enjoying this game. And on top of that, this is one of the only games I was posting in while v/la

at all

because my other head wasn’t keeping us out of prod range. Site wide I spent a couple weeks not posting anything whatsoever except to keep from being prodded if my hydra partner wasn’t doing that, which was only true of this hydra and the newbie game I was ICing at the time.

And the only person who gave me shit about it was anti, who had also been v/la for much of this game, but who, like me, had a legitimate offline reason for being v/la and also still managed to maintain some amount of activity (which apparently is a towntell for him ugh). I’m getting back into things now and you’ll be seeing more of me. But basically this attack felt weird because we stopped phoning it in around page 10 or so. After that we were participating. Attacking us for being bad at mafia is absolutely fine and warranted. Attacking the v/la is irritating.

I guess if activity is alignment indicative for anti then I can understand why he’d be pushing on that, but it’s not for either of us. My activity levels and the amount of effort I put into a game are a function of offline stuff and how many games I’m in (I’m no longer overextended, by the way). How much fun I’m having in a game can sometimes factor into it but in unexpected ways; I might spend more time on a game I’m not enjoying because I feel guilty about not enjoying it, I might redouble my efforts for a game I’m feeling apathetic about, othertimes I might avoid a thread that’s upsetting me entirely. Depends on a lot of different factors, but if alignment plays a part it’s going to be such a small part that it gets drowned out by the other factors.

I appreciated anti calling me out on the fake/genuine thing in 499 because I think he’s right and I’ve experienced that people are pretty bad at reading me along those lines, but I found it interesting (by which I mean irritating but not necessarily alignment indicative because hypocrisy isn’t a scumtell) that around that time he called something of mine faked (which wasn’t fake but w/e. proving his point about everyone sucking at telling between fake/genuine i guess.)

The vote on aristophanes comes almost out of nowhere because it’s a slot they’d been ignoring all game. They were scum reading aristo in -88 and then interacted with them a little in ways that didn’t feel like sorting just mostly null interactions (=197 =269 | =442 =481 =486) and then finally a vote in v588. I understand the vote and I agree that aristo is seriously underwhelming, but I don’t understand the trajectory that led them to the vote.

I’d still like Bella’s question answered about what he misread about 610 but I think town would be more likely to misread that post than scum because scum knows our alignment for sure there’s only one possible interpretation available. (though really there’s only one possible interpretation period because i have literally no balls.)

I don’t know what it means that anti can list off the top of his head who is willing to vote for aris in 633, because it’s a sign of temperature sweeping but i do that as both alignments (as town, it helps me judge how safe someone else’s reads list is and whether they’re just sheeping popular opinion or not. you have to know what popular opinion is first to push someone along those lines)

Having learned that activity is alignment indicative for anti, it is probably a good sign that he’s been taking the reins so much here.

finally a few words about reads progressions:

aris: scum since 88, not interacted with much, early scumread reacquired in 588.
duppin: scum since 88 still scum all the way through 581
firebringer: mostly neutral interactions, was scum in 88 but i think they’re a townread now so there is that.
ika: mostly neutral interactions, I think they’re starting to lean scum on ika.
us: scum since 56. spent most of the game tunnelling us. they’ve backed of us which is nice but I think they pretty much had to.
random midget: scum in 154, but town since 257. barely interacted with them.
shaddowez: scum since 56, then I think they started to townread them on day 2, starting with 486 though I couldn’t tell if 492 was an attack or a defence.
simple hope: barely interacted with them (to be fair, they were barely here to be interacted with), but scum since 121
varian: only one interaction, 90.
vedith: townread them all of day 1, except for 314 which looked like scumreading them and townreading them at once and 388
wanderer: only neutral interactions
wingback: consistent scumread except for the early hydra dissonance thing.

I usually see more changes of mind from town aligned slots because as the game changes new information happens and nobody’s reads are spot on on page 4 so people’s reads evolve over time. When a slots reads don’t change, or only change a tiny bit throughout the course of a game, this is a pretty major scumtell for me because it shows that somebody isn’t really reacting to the game state but is pushing a narrative that the people they decided in rvs were scum and are still scum 30 pages later.

And especially since it’s a hydra because that theoretically means two different people reacting to a game state and taking in new information and forming different opinions, and it’s fine if most of that happens in private, some hydras do more work in private some in public but I think having two heads means twice the opportunity for a slot’s opinion of another slot to change and I haven’t seen as much of that this game as I would expect.

Okay so I’m still feeling super conflicted about heartless because lack of reads progressions is a major major thing that I look for and it has served me well in the past, in the entire history of the numbers thing I have only been wrong about this once and it turned out they weren’t scum they were a 3rd party who could have won with the town, or except in micros when there just weren’t enough posts to go on with the numbers thing. but anti being more active than tth is a good sign I think.

still leaning scum on heartless but not as confidently as before when I was tunnelling them.

It's now 8am and I've been writing this for 3 hours.

—P

[Rainbow Unicat]

ika enters hardtownreading us and heartless which is something I always find baffling in games but I think sometimes people do it just for reactions. But this could also be a sign of the thing that I was looking for so that’s troubling. I think we’re the two slots he knows the best, though? He knows bella a lot better than he knows me; he was dead in the 1? game we’ve played together by the time I replaced into it and we’ve seen each other around but I’d trust Bella to read him more than myself and visa versa.

After his internet is back in 450 he skims the thread and says he’s starting to get paranoid of everything

but

prior to this point he had two town reads (us and heartless) that he was vehement about and he continues to be town reading our two slots and plops down some other reads. he notes that wanderer’s single scumread feels off so i checked and that was wingback. he’s hardly interacted with wingback before this, just =168 =212.

can’t tell if he’s scum reading firebringer or just disagreeing with him (about us).

he says in 539 that in 212 he was trying to get montosh to engage with him (by saying “hi there”). it didn’t work clearly but I’m wondering where that would have gone if montosh had said hi back.

wonder why shadow, asp hydra and duppin slots in particular in 575.

635 is literally the first time ika mentions aristophanes’ slot in the entire game (when he wonders why heartless has left him out of the list of people who would be willing to lynch aristophanes). where is this scumread coming from?

I think ika needs to be doing more, and he has the same lack of reads progression that heartless has except that his is a lot more pronounced. Most of his ISO consists of him yelling at various people that heartless and us are town, and while I appreciate the support I’m worried both about his activity levels since regaining internet access and his reads and interactions. scum lean on ika.

—P

[Rainbow Unicat]

simple hope’s entrance was underwhelming but jeanne11 is always underwhelming. She was my buddy in mini 1675 and managed to get herself modkilled in only 7 posts. in multiball. i'm still salty about that.

I don’t understand what they’re saying about heartless in 22. The only stance in 48 is a sheep of wanderer’s stance.

This hydra has done literally nothing all game except now and then announce a townread or a scumread without explanation. The only reason I don’t want to lynch them right now is that I want to give the replacement a chance to do something alignment indicative. scumlean, though.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

RANDOMMIDGET

He says in 47 that he put vedith at L-1 because he wanted to see

varian

’s reaction. Why varian in particular? I’d think this was just a mixing up names thing but then in 61 he explains that he gets more useful reactions from the player not being wagonned than the one that is being wagonned so yeah why varian?

He spends the rest of the early game being defensive. says he’s always defensive in 205. i don’t really have the energy to look that up right now. does anyone else know?

felt like his push on simple hope in 95 was reachy but simple hope could easily be scum so meh. Wants to policy lynch ika in 151, who could also be scum. I don’t know if wanting to policy lynch people is scummy or not; someone once tunnelled me for wanting to policy lynch someone though and continued to tunnel me after they flipped scum. i was policy bussing, though. oh, in 355 he says it was a joke, ugh why don’t people announce it in some way when they are telling a joke.

i don’t like 245 at all. he says he’s scum hunted more than several players but at this point, he has rvsed ika and then later wanted to policy lynch him, pushed on simple hope a bit. pushed us a tiny bit in 203 but other than that no. calling it several was generous, his primary push was on simple hope and that was it.

In 266 he says he’s scumhunting just not revealing the results and I’ve met players with that playstyle before (goodmorning comes to mind) but I can usually figure out what stances she’s taking even though she’s holding back. with random i don’t get that feeling at all; it’s literally indistinguishable from doing nothing.

541 “haven’t read anything therefore i am going to vote” ugh. unvotes 3 posts later in 544

asks us some questions in 565. I haven’t been ignoring them as such i just need to finish this ISOing thing I am doing but I promise i will answer every question then.

first mention of wingback is in their last post, 627.

random midget doesn’t have a reads progression (except a little bit on our slot) but his activity levels haven’t been high enough yet for this to be objectively scummy but he seriously needs to start taking some stances soon. null leaning scum.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Donottrustme’s ISO needs to be added to the wiki as an example of lacklustre. I don’t even.

Attacks firebringer in 188 for not posting very much. Firebringer had 20 posts at that point when if everyone including the mod was posting equally then everyone would have had 13-14 posts by then so firebringer had actually been one of the more active slots. His reasons for town reading us in 201 are extremely weak. I think I’ve complained about this before, but outside of Rome the ability to cough up a reads list on command is not the strong town tell you seem to think this is.

And then in 262 firebringer is also town for having managed to produce a reads list and “attempting” to scum hunt. Vedith is town because he formats his reads list the same way in this game and in other games (retracted in 290 but meh). the cow is confusing but he was on alcohol so it’s ok. random is scum because of the L-1 vote still, not for the being super defensive afterwards? what even is this post. this is just a really surface skim of the game thread.

Was about to complain that he’s not that new since he’s only been here 1 month less than I have but then I found out he only has 2 completed games and 100 in game posts so yeah he is new. He’s never been scum before which might explain some of the problems he’s having, but he made it to 3p lylo in n1599 and he managed to get himself nightkill in n1621 so while i haven’t felt like reading either of those games, either everyone else was more lacklustre than him in those games or something’s up with his alignment in this one.

shaddowez is better. he comes in with a reads list in 326 and I can see where he’s coming from on some of the slots.

Why did he think there was a wagon forming on montosh at the time of his replace out? 328. firebringer voted him for a little while from 233 until 248 but that was it. the 1 vote wagon on montosh lasted less than a page.

His case on random in 343 doesn’t really warm my loins but I’m not one to talk this game so.

It bothers me that he wants to vote us without either reading our ISO or trying to engage with us to ask for a tl;dr or something but I like that they talk about that instead of just randomly voting us.

I like the wingback push in 411. His towncase for us in 412 is better than his predecessor’s was. duppin case in 428 is underwhelming, largely based on activity and duppin’s townread on us. Pushing on him is ok though, duppin does need to be doing more than he is.

On second thought, though, it kinda feels like he’s tag teaming with heartless in 563 or egging them on a bit. i don’t think they’re scum together with heartless but if heartless is town, shaddowez might not be. ika push is ok. his question for us is ok too. why isn’t simple hope low content? agree what wingback isn’t low content despite low activity, but simple hope?

I like that he’s questioning people about their reads in 589 and trying to understand where people are coming from.

647 answers some of the things i brought up earlier in this post about firebringer (who had 20 posts when donot yelled at him but it’s true that most of those posts were fluff so they don’t really count as posts.) and about asp.

ari case is good and i like that he produces one instead of just sheeeping in 648.

shaddowez is a low activity player but i like his contributions to the game and I like that his reads progression exists and that I can see where he’s coming from. his predecessor was seriously lacklustre but I have replaced into dead townslots a few times myself so I get it. I’m not too confident about this read yet, generally an ISO needs about 50 posts in it before I’m really comfortable having an opinion on it, but I’m leaning town on him.

—P

[Rainbow Unicat]

So quiet here.

Theres three active trains with 2 votes on them each. Pick one, do you really see all three as town?

@Fb, As of now you are the only one voting us: you should prolly also look at consolidating votes

VOTE: Aristophanes for the reasons i posted earlier.

I retract the rainbow scumread.

Wanderers last post to me is scummy as hell. Who can tell me why?

The Ari vote: I'm happy with. I can see what you saw about wanderer, but this isn't her scum game. So - why are you retracting the scum-read on us? I'm kinda assuming it was some of my responses to you, but it would really help me if you unpack that

I planned to vote after Wingback responded. He barely did though. I'm not satisfied at least (and I could have been)
I'll vote after sleep.

This isn't clear (maybe bc no sleep) why would wingback's response help you vote?

damn it i missed a fun convo.....

fuck wrk

Fun conversations - like your reads and thoughts on the game. Maybe a vote. Maybe a reaction to me new scum-read on you.

I have conflicted thoughts about 647 but 648 makes me feel a bit better. Fun-fact: last week I had shaddow firmly in my scum-pile, but I kinda like their responses to me. Hmmm... Gonna catch up with plotti but our vote is prolly moving.

[Rainbow Unicat]

yeah, probably. if I don't figure it out before endgame will you tell me after it's over?

I feel like I'm being less bad at mafia today than I have been recently but time will tell.

ran out of steam somewhat earlier, but working on it a little more now. two more ISOs to finish and then I'll consolidate my readslist into order.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Bella voted shaddowez in 531, the mod counted it even though it was a hydraslip. Ari's at L-3 I think. agree with not putting him at L-1 just yet, want to finish having thoughts. will let bella answer the rest.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

@Heartless, something really worried me on the last page - did you see it? Also, my accent is very British! I did say I'd skype anti but he said we couldn't be buddies

anyway, UNVOTE:

[Rainbow Unicat]

^ was Bella

Took forever to get my brain started today, it's like the fan I have that the motor is going and if I turn it on it won't do anything but hum but if I take it apart and spin the blades with my hands, eventually, after lots of tries, it finally starts spinning of its own volition. Also refeeding is still exhausting but I got some vitamins to help with it. And it's too hot and I"m tired of summer. Want autumn leaves and rain and wind and blankets and coat and mittens and patches of ice on the sidewalk shimmering in the pale November sunlight and fog so big that you can't see the flats across the street and the floating globes of fuzzy orange street lamps hanging in the mist and the smell of wood stoves from the houses. Or anything but this too hot to wear clothes nonsense. It's 35ºC and it's terrible.

WANDERER'S ISO

wanderer has a strong entrance with asking questions and she’s one of the first players to share her reads. for example, she pushes random for a while then town reads him for his response, satisfied with what she hears from him. I think scum might be a little more reluctant to let go of pushing someone.

saying “I’m townleaning you so i feel comfortable sheeping you” feels a bit overexplainy.

Her reads progression exists and makes sense given the game state.

I like her shadow push and then her change of heart about him between 408 and 416

I think not wanting to vote before sleep is a fine thing. I think I even know where it come from, in my 2nd newbie game that I played with wanderer I voted after midnight and it was too late for counting and I hammered by mistake and for about a month after that I was really shy about my voting and still I don’t really like voting unless I’m awake enough to count properly. It’s a good habit to be in.

Wanderer reminds me a lot of the townWanderer I’ve seen three times in previous games with her. I’m pretty comfortable with this townread.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Spoiler: What was bothering me about wingback/montosh on 16 Aug

Montosh’s ISO was scummy because he only had one townread (Vedith) who he was defending from RVS onwards and he was null/negative on everybody else which looked like trying to keep the mislynch pool as wide open as possible. Then he flaked which isn’t alignment indicative necessarily but he seems to be a newer player and in newbie games, scum slots flake at about 3 times the rate of townslots so that’s a bad sign (though not a 100% indicator obviously). But then wingback enters the game with a chainsaw defence of vedith which of course made me very suspicious. montosh’s interactions with heartless were all neutral.

It still bothers me that montosh only had one townread (vedith), and that wingback had the same townread as montosh on day 1 (and only the 1 townread). It also bothers me that they’ve been tunnelling us all game and haven’t been sorting other slots very much. I believe I’ve already replied to their cases on us and don’t want to do so again.

I still don’t like their shaddowez push because by then we were deadline scrambling and while they were able to name the people who would be willing to switch to shaddowez, those weren’t enough names to lynch him. Town lynch is better than no lynch.

In 431 they said they would have been around at the deadline to hammer vedith if their push failed but the problem was that if their push only half succeeded we could have had a couple wagons at L-3 or L-4 and not enough people around to hammer either of them. And they didn’t do much wagon driving to give their shaddowez counter wagon a chance to succeed.

One thing that I find irritating about wingback, and by irritating I don’t necessarily mean scummy, I mean that I find it confusing and that it makes it harder to read them, is they say things that indicate they don’t think i’m incompetent, for example that i could find the masons through my pr hunting skills, and then i when i interpret that to mean that they think my scumgame doesn’t suck, they accuse me of being overly self confident.

It’s like they say things that sound complimentary and then if I take them as a compliment they insult me and it’s weird and it feels like they want to throw me off balance but I don’t know to what aim. It’s not the sort of thing that would make me likely to scum slip if I were scum, it’s just irritating. If there is something about it that is scummy, it’s that it feels like it’s an attempt to discredit me or to make me look crazy and less credible, especially at a time when my credibility has already taken a hit.

Like I look at this exchange and I feel like I’m being gaslighted.

My Rainbow scumread took a hit considering if they were scum, I'd expect Plotinus's mathematical analysis with the +/- stuff to easily yield them results on who the masons are.

they're someone who has either played with me before or seen me around and respects me as a player

You are making too many assumptions. I said your +/- thing would help you find the masons if you were scum. I have no comments about your competence as a player.

and again

If there's one scum I predict will go deep to endgame, it's probably Rainbow.

I cannot think of another way to interpret this than Rainbow won’t be obvscum if Rainbow is scum.

How does that work when there are so many people scumreading us? I mean I get that you're complementing my scum game, and I'm flattered, but this isn't it, and I don't think it makes sense given the game state.

I wasn't complimenting your scumgame. This is the second time you've played up your level of competence when I've made no comment about it and my read on you has nothing to do with your perceived competency as scum.

How is “you aren’t obvscum as scum” not a compliment? Like I don’t even want to be complimented by wingback at this point; it feels like buddying more than anything but it’s unsettling. I don’t care if they like me or dislike me or if they think I suck (which would be warranted based on this and some of my other games) or if they think I’m great (about a third of my games didn’t suck I think), but this dissonance of “here is something plot is good at” “oh you’ve seen me use this well before” “no i didn’t say you were good” is off-putting.






This is neither here nor there but the person I think they are is more than capable of faking scumhunting as scum so I’m also not inclined to give them an A for effort like I would with a newb. (This is a compliment and I won’t start insulting you if you take it as one )

Also they seem seriously obsessed with us and want everybody’s thoughts on us in a way that makes me uncomfortable because I think the reason they went for shaddowez instead of us on day 1 was that they picked up on our crumbs (everyone who has played outside of Rome before knows what “I’m not getting lynched today” means, come on. In mini 1687 when I did it people were face palming at how obvious my crumbs were) and then today has mostly been about trying to find our partners.

Whenever someone expresses a townread me, they go after them relentlessly wanting to know in detail why they think we’re town.

They continue this charade long after it should have been obvious even to the most oblivious n00b. it’s ridiculous, for example in 590 they’re still doing it.

And then in 616 they spend an entire paragraph pretending to have never heard of town paranoia before. what. it felt like they were trying to draw me into a meaningless semantics argument, especially with their responses in 618..

Also their reads progression is really hard to follow and it seems to change from post to post depending on who they're talking to instead of flowing naturally from one state to a next. I don't really know what bella liked about it earlier.


I feel like i’m having trouble being objective about this slot because I know that irritating != scummy but I feel like there’s enough here especially with their behaviour today to call them scum.

Oddly, I’m feeling somewhat better about heartless atm and slightly worse about firebringer (for his impatience mostly. it seemed like he was in a hurry to get to the nightphase when we still have some time left and I had only asked for a couple days.)


k I'm going to reread my recent posts and organise them into an ordered reads list and then I'll vote, and it'll probably be for wingback though I'd like to see bella's readslist too and ideally I want to vote for someone we can both agree on because as we've seen, just because I'm making sense doesn't neccessarily mean I'm right (though I think the chance of my being right today is significantly higher than my chance of being right yesterday.)

—P

[Rainbow Unicat]

and haven’t been sorting other slots very much

to clarify, I mean that he has primarily been sorting other slots in relation to us, not in relation to each other or to himself.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

readslist done but bella has appeared so we're going to sync first.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

This is a synched as we're going to get I think.

Plotinus

town:

wanderer

townleans:

shaddowez

nulltown:

duppin
firebringer

null please get caught up and start interacting soon:

lalendra

idek null because so much conflicted:

heartless

scumlean:

aristo
randomidget
ika

scum:

wingback

Bella

Town: Wanderer

Townish - fire, heartless

null town - wingback, duppin, shaddow

Null - random, lal

scum - ika, aristo

Plotinus thinks wingback is bussing aristo, Bella wants to look more at wingback/heartless toMorrow instead of today. Plotinus would really rather vote wingback toDay. We will probably be voting aristo I guess.

Intent to put aristo at L-1 I guess

--both (Plotinus typing)

[Rainbow Unicat]

Lalendra, I really think that the meta discussion and the alt discussion both make up a small fraction of the game and there is plenty else to dig into. It's 100% okay to not meta dive anybody and to not have an opinion on the past games of people you haven't played with before; that's called cold meta and it's not worth as much as experiential meta where you've played with someone before (preferably a bunch of times as multiple alignments) and you have strong feelings about what differentiates their town game from their scum game.

It is perfectly fine to analyse people based on what their actions have done for the game state. If some of the meta stuff is over your head, just ignore it and focus on the things that you do understand; I also often feel like the early stages of a game are absolute gibberish but they make more sense in retrospect once i know the alignments of some of the people who were talking to each other.

I think you're new, and I'm all but conftown at this point, so I can get away with coaching people, so I'm going to give you some homework:

I want you to pick somebody, anybody at all really, and go through their posts and try to figure out why they were saying the things that they were saying, what effect their post had on the game state, what effect they were trying to have if different from the actual effect, and whether their post was more advancing scum wincon or town wincon. Explain why you think the things that you think.

If you have any completed games you can remember what scum was trying to do in those games and see if anybody is doing anything similar to that here. That's not meta since you're comparing two different people but "I saw something like this before and this is why I think the two things are similar" is not a bad approach.

I think that if you are town, trying to approach the game this way will help us to figure that out (and will also help you get your own head into the game), and that if you are scum this homework will be slightly too difficult for you and that will show; I've had success with trying this in the past, maybe it'll work again. (for the curious: n1603 where every newbie except for the newbiescum excelled at the homework I gave them, and n1615 when I again tried to give homework and everyone but my scumbuddy did pretty well at it and in retrospect I should have known that would happen.)

You may not have enough time until deadline to approach every slot in this manner but even if you reach deadline with 2 confident townreads and 1 scumread and a bunch of nulls you haven't gotten to yet, that'll be better than nothing. It's looking like Aristophanes (who replaced Persivul) is going to be today's lynch but don't vote him yet because he's at L-2 and if someone puts him at L-1 then ika will lolhammer and you'll lose your catchup time, but that might be a good place to start. After that it's up to you.

pedit: looks like you might get some more time if randomidget is being replaced. that's good.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Honestly, if we can't lynch Ari (and I'm still not convinced we shouldn't) then would get behind a wagon on ika, purely bc of meta. @Heartless, (fire, duppin, wanderer) this looking like his towngame to you?

We aren't no lynching today. We'll get a deadline extension.

[Rainbow Unicat]

that's a prod for ika too, btw

[Rainbow Unicat]

VOTE: ika

[Rainbow Unicat]

ugh, when is deadline? I don't wanna no lynch.

[Rainbow Unicat]

i already have as long as we dont lynch outside of {you, bella, heatless,me} we should be good

i understand wy they are lynching me but *shrugs*

You want these people lynched, or don't? I'm confused!

-b

[Rainbow Unicat]

yeah i'm done too.

Lalendra has not passed the homework either; if she doesn't improve toMorrow you should lynch her after ika.

scum is in {wingback, ika, aristo, lalendra}. independently.

VOTE: Aristo

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Aristo is at L-1 someone should lynch him or do intent to hammer or something

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

yeah

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

were you scum?

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

@Fire: I think it's premature for the masons to claim. It's clear the scumteam has no idea who they are, else they wouldn't be killing VTs. If we go another day phase with all 3 masons intact, the scum team is going to be in serious trouble, especially if we lynch scum today.

VOTE: ika this is his scum meta. choo choo.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

3/2/4 = 9, masons revealing wouldn't be strong enough yet. It's not half. I don't think you are scum though, FB, just bad at maths

-b

[Rainbow Unicat]

Mastina! Hi!

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

Yeah, this day doesn't need to drag on. Wing's thoughts about the scum-team mirror my own, apart from - why town-read rando?

-b

[Rainbow Unicat]

Why the fuck do my scumreads keep getting nightkilled? I don't think I ever would have got over my paranoia of heartless and wingback. Someone is not having a good scumgame, it seems. My sympathy, I just got out of a bad one myself elsewhere.

Anyway, what if we take our time this dayphase so that we can actually hear from the replacements about what they think?


Mastina how much catching up did you do during the night phase. Talk to me please.

--Plotinus

[Rainbow Unicat]

Looking forward to it after the weekend is over.

And yeah I'm pretty sure it's not you. My thought process on this is that if you were scum, you would have read at least skimmed enough to not hit a VT? Or you would have done enough of a temperature sweep to hit someone who was widely townread instead of widely suspected? You'd have some kind of master scum plan that didn't involve leaving the masons alive and well until the point where none of them can be lynched unless they bus each other, right?

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

goodgood.

How did you know ika was scum? Just from page 32-33?

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Let's not forget that I was also on both scum wagons, and long before it seemed that either case was hopeless. Seems pretty town to me; who would bus BOTH of their partners? Anyway, that doesn't seem like a super strong case. If it seems like I'm not following closely, it's because I've been busy with work, but I was following closely enough to be right on both scum lynches, so that counts for something.

Knowing who is scum is easy when the names are listed in your role PM. You can be right about your buddies without following the game very closely. But it is true that if you bussed ika, then you did it early. A person who was following the game (not even all that closely) would know that ika was a lost cause even before Aristo was lynched.

You were not on the Aristo wagon:

Spoiler: Aristo wagon

Vote Count 2.Final

Aristophanes

[6] - shaddowez,

Wingback

, Firebringer, Wanderer-nl, Rainbow Unicat,

Heartless

[LYNCH]

duppin

[2] - randomidget,

Aristophanes

Heartless

[1] - duppin

Not Voting

[2] -

ika

, Lalendra

Anyway, recently I wrote that my hydra partner was town because he bussed and his meta was that never busses and I was town because my meta was that I always bus and yet I hadn't bussed at all that game, but I was twilight trolling when I wrote that having lost the game as last scum. Posts that remind me of things that I say during twilight trolling raise my hackles.

How did you know ika was scum? Just from page 32-33?

Pretty much, yeah. He only had one post, but that one post was enough for me to know it was him. (Okay, I admit, I also had the aid of other people on said pages describing him, and between his post and their descriptions, I could tell. He's a ridiculously easy read.)

That's true, ika's pretty easy. Tentative welcome to the town voting bloc, mastina! But I still want to see a catchup post from you and stuff sometime during the week.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Been thinking some more of this conversation between fire and ika

Spoiler: fire ika convo 9pm on 20th August

I'm in wanderer's camp on the NK speculation. Varian wasn't ever going to get lynched so it makes sense as an NK with or without accurate reads.

even if thats the reason do you think they might of also killed him for reads or was it just plain nk?

im actualy wondering about a diffrent angle but i dunno if i should disclose it

You ever think perhaps their is no reason to the killings. That they really just random it and hope we make up our own reasons and cause a mislynch?

You ever think perhaps their is no reason to the killings. That they really just random it and hope we make up our own reasons and cause a mislynch?

if your talking about a set of new players (ie road to rome) then yes.

however i would argule all players here have enough skills to not jsut go "lol random.org" so there is an inhrent reason to it. wanter and heatless say "oh he was obvi town"

ya that true, but i am looking at it from the setup itself.........

And I found this earlier tonight, just 10 hours earlier at 11am on 20th August:

I say we kill Kyndy101, I randomly selected him using random generator. [I don't like it when town can figure out mafia real reason for killing players, I like our kills to be utterly meaningless and random]

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

my thoughts are that there is an obvious similarity and connection between the two things, and it would explain some of the kills, and also the last scum is someone who either hasn't been paying attention or is unfamiliar site meta or is using dice tags to determine their nightkills. There's an elephant in the room here that almost everybody can see and has acknowledged and i'm pretty sure the scum is in the people who aren't seeing it.

or you were asking people in this game for advice on your nightkill elsewhere which is kinda lol.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

right, and whoever is last scum seems to be using that method too or something akin to it.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

not neccessarily, there is someone else it could be, too.

And sure, since I'm not ICing this newbie game I'll just go ahead and say that randomisation is an excellent nightkill strategy and that the last scum should continue to use this method.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

@Fire: Your sarcasm detection metre is in working order. I am glad to see that.

Anyway, yeah, I disagree, but elaborating would require me to explain what strategies I think are better, that is which strategies have a better than random chance of hitting a mason than the ones currently being used and that's a mafia theory lesson that it would be antitown to give right now. We can argue about this in the endgame if you like, or if I ever roll scum with you then we can revisit it in some future private thread.



pedit @Lalendra: looking forward to it. Also, why do you think Wingback and Heartless were nightkilled?

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Also, why do you think Wingback and Heartless were nightkilled?

I have a pretty good idea why, but this question wasn't directed at me, so if you want, I'll wait until the intended questionee responds.

please do wait, I am interested in Lalendra's opinions specifically.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

@Lalendra: so you think that I'd line up some mislynches and then nightkill them instead?

pedit: @Mastina yes, and wingback said something kinda similar towards the end of their last day, but there's a broader context you're missing. ISO me.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

You are, unless you're being coy, but that's ok. We don't have to be very coy with this scumteam, just put a napkin on your head while you talk to me; it works as a cloak of invisibility for all intents and purposes.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

I kinda feel like firebringer has figured out the criteria the townbloc are using to townread each other and is frustrated that he hasn't met the criteria himself yet/on time to be admitted to the townbloc toDay.

I also feel like my needling the last scum about what an unfortunate scumgame they're having this time around is getting to him.

VOTE: Firebringer L-1

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

look, there are only 2 and a half people the last scum could be and we have 2 mislynches to spare. If you're town, you shouldn't care.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

town can win posthumously.

look, we lynch you today, if you flip scum, game over town wins. If you flip town, then someone gets nightkilled, if the person who is nightkilled is a VT then town wins. game over town wins, you win too. if a mason is nightkilled then we lynch _____ or _____ (Depending on which mason gets nightkilled). if they're town too, then night phase. if a VT is night killed, game over town wins. if another mason is nightkilled, then we lynch ______ because there's nobody else who could be scum, town wins.

If you are town, it literally does not matter whether you are lynched or not.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

two of the blanks are the same person.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

+ I have been pretty obviously baiting the nightkill since day 1 and it hasn't happened yet. I have made my peace with scum continuing to deny me access to the dead thread and have managed to stop taking it personally.

Everyone in the townbloc can fill the blanks in for themselves and will fill them in in the same way.

pedit: fire, there are reasons I was townreading you at one point in the past, including some of the stuff that mastina pointed out just seemed like too obvscum to be scum interactions at the time, but too scummy to be scum is a shit reason to townread someone and you're in the scumbloc by POE. If you're town, I will have a lot of words for you in the endgame, and perhaps by the time we reach the endgame I will have found a tactful way to put them. If you're not town then *shrug*.

It's pretty obvious that I am/was having a shit towngame this time around, I fell on my arse pretty hard on day 1 with preflip associatives between THREE VANILLA TOWNIES which was embarrassing though given how my other completed recent towngames have gone lately I'm no longer really surprised or appalled at myself because I have not had a good game (as any alignment) since July but it is also very painfully obvious that I am town here, not because of anything that I have done or not done but because of how everyone else has interacted with me. I will not explain that further at this juncture but I can go over it in the endgame if you're still confused.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

If you fakeclaimed mason, anyone in the townbloc would lolhammer you. Someone should probably still do that anyway.

pedit: it's not about your playstyle. Your playstyle is fine. It's about your (lack of) mafia theory knowledge. It's about several things that you have done toDay that are severely antitown because they help scum wincon and hurt town wincon. This game is 95% won for town anyway but you have done things toDay that make it just a little bit more likely that scum (if it's not you) will win.

Also, I'm the wrong person to ask what the scum motivation for bussing is because I have actually gotten towncred for it semirecently (in June). Your teammates weren't pulling their weight; I would have bussed them in your situation but I would have probably started earlier.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

like seriously. What part of IF SCUM NIGHTKILL A VANILLA TOWNIE TONIGHT, TOWN WINS THE GAME!!!! don't you understand? Posting any speculation, no matter how inaccurate or accurate, on who the masons might be is antitown.

If you're town and we lynch you today then there are 6 people alive, and then scum kills 1 VT and there are 5 alive. 1 scum, 1 VT, 3 masons. Can the masons be lynched? no. it takes 3 votes to lynch someone and the masons are not going to bus each other in that situation. If scum hits a mason tonight then tomorrow it is 1 scum, 2 vt, 2 masons. That's not the end of the world because after we get rid of you there is still only 1 and a half people who could possibly be scum, but this game will almost certainly be called as a town victory if scum kills a VT tonight.

So if we all say who we think the masons are, even if everyone is wrong and the masons all lie about who they think the masons are to wifom the scum...it's antitown. and almost every single time town has tried to wifom me that way when I was scum, I saw what they were doing and saw through it and it was enough to put the puzzle together. This one time, a town I was in did a mass hypoclaim where every single person claimed 20 different roles that they ~maybe~ were on day 1 and by night 3 our flavour cop was useless because we had correctly figured the entire setup out.

though on second thought the last scum, whether you or not you, is not me and therefore probably wouldn't be able to figure it out so maybe carry on i don't even know. *throws up hands*

anyway it's probably you and you're just trying to go out kicking and screaming because town really has no reason to kick up a fuss about being mislynched in this situation because you'll win whether we lynch you or not but scum does so bye!

someone put the last scum out of his misery with a lolhammer now.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

(that was a 19 player game where we figured out the entire setup by night 3 with a flavour cop btw)

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

@Firebringer:

inexperience challenged post

This is the twilight trolling phase of the game. After you have been lynched but before the mod comes in to lock the thread, you can make funny posts to try to make people laugh and take the piss out of the game or vent some steam. You can pretend you were town or claim scum with the mod or post youtube videos or engage in scum theatre or do whatever you want!

Twilight trolling is an artform that takes many scumgames to perfect. It's usually adviseable to start collecting ideas for twilight trolling long in advance of your scum flip. I keep all my ideas in a text file on my computer; sometimes I'm fleshing out twilight trolling ideas even before a game I have my eye on enters signups.

You should do some twilight trolling now.

[Rainbow Unicat]

(inexperience challenged is what they call the experienced players who teach newbs how to play in the newbie games.

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, regardless of your alignment.

I am probably just as annoyed with you as you are with me.)

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Who the fuck nightkills duppin? You should have killed me instead.

This nightkill would be a lot easier to analyse if firebringer hadn't

Masons-
Rainbow Unicat
Duppin
Mastin?

because any idiot could look at firebringer's post and say maybe firebringer was on to something about duppin.

If firebringer hadn't done that, the nightkill would be analysable, because no way lalendra kills duppin because last we heard from her she she was scumreading him. this looks more like a mastina kill than a lalendra kill. but thanks to firebringer's help, the waters are muddy now, because anyone who read post 901 could have made this kill. if he hadn't posted this, it would have been easy; either because lalendra would have killed somebody else or because mastina would have been the only one who had a reason to kill duppin.

That's why I wasn't filling in the blanks, mr scum mvp. the nightkill would have filled them in if it weren't for you.

I kind of want to vote lalendra anyway but there's a voice at the back of my head saying that mastina's doing to me what I did to BBT in n1615. but it's 4am. i'll sleep on it.

pedit: hm. yeah I am having lots of Thoughts but I'm just going to go the fuck to sleep.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Of all the masons.

duppin was the most obvious.

please explain this to me postgame. explaining it now would be antitown if we're wrong about lalendra, even though we're probably not wrong about her.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

oh, ok. I don't have prior experience with him. I thought it would have been something about his interactions with living players.

Poor guy, drawing masons twice in a row.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

The only thing that's holding me back from voting lalendra is jeanne11's replaceout. she's overwhelmingly more likely to replace out as town to the extent that it's almost a trust tell:

town:
pokémon generation ii upick, town, replaced out
n1582, town, actually participated
n1592, town, replaced out
mini 1670, town, actually participated
mini 1671, town, replaced out
open 596, town, replaced out
open 595, town, replaced out
n1605, town, replaced out
micro 506, town, lurked then nightkilled

scum:
n1598 scum, actually participated
micro475 scum, replaced out <--- oh good there is a counter example. i was sure she only flaked as town.
mini 1668, scum, lurked then lynched
open 594, scum, actually participated
mini 1672, cultist, replaced out
mini 1673, alien, actually participated
mini 1675, scum, worst scumbuddy i ever had, modkilled after only 7 posts
n1630, scum, actually participated
n1636, scum, replaced out around the time she replaced out of this one


so this isn't exactly as cut and dried as I thought, but she had 9 town games and replaced out (or lurked to the extent that probably would have been replaced if wasn't killed) in 7 of them. She had 9 scum games, actually participated in 4 of them, and only replaced out of a couple.

For a while I thought she had a trust tell that if she actually participated then she was scum, but she lurks/flakes from most of her games and only participates in a few (and most of them but not all of them happen to be scum). In this game she didn't participate which she does often enough as both alignments (somewhat more often as town).

But it seems she has flaked/replaced out of a few scumgames, micro 475 and n1636. so her replacing out here doesn't make the slot conftown. that's...good.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Sorry for not posting today, it's been a busy weekend.

Rainbow: What are your thoughts on Lalendra and Mastin based purely on what they did and are doing in this thread?

Shaddowez: I'd really like it if you could share your thoughts.

In term of read accuracy I'm having the worst towngame of my life. I was right about 1 slot? 2 slots? something like that? I just want to curl up under a rock and stop hindering town by trying to have opinions.

thoughts on the scum ISOs

But what I think from reading

ika/persivul/aristo combined ISO

is that aristo was whiteknighting mastin's slot and it looked more like SvT than SvS. Aristo's read on ika was positive in a noncommital way, leaving himself room to back down from that read later. He treated lalendra slot in a very similar way, liking the quality of their posts while attacking other lurker slots.

simple hope's iso

What I think from reading

simple hope/lalendra

combined ISO is that if they're scum, jeanne opens voting a scumbuddy. Normally I would say this is the kind of thing that is too obvious and scum is therefore less likely to do that but in mini 1675 Jeanne and I both opened by voting each other (I was trying to get her policy lynched, she OMGUSed me, then she was modkilled a very short while later and I didn't even get towncred for being right that she was scum). ANYWAY, the point is that voting her buddy in RVS is something jeanne would totally do.

And then ASP overexplains why he's leaving the RVS vote where it is which looks like he's cringing at the obviousness of it but doesn't know how to say YOU GUYS I AM REALLY UNCOMFORTABLE VOTEPARKING MY BUDDY SO I AM GOING TO VOTE ELSEWHERE so instead of he says YOU GUYS I AM REALLY UNCOMFORTABLE UNVOTING MY BUDDY FOR NO REASON SO I AM GOING TO JUST KEEP VOTEPARKING HIM.

It is weird that ASP was townreading duppin's slot in 110 because literally nobody was openly townreading that slot at the time. feels like more whiteknighting.

Then Jeanne replaces out which I'd thought was a cut and dried towntell but it turns out it isn't after some research and actually her replacing out of this game might have been partially not wanting to play with me specifically.

it's possible that she was in 3 games which was 2 games too many and if she was scum in all 3 then deciding which game to stay in would have probably come down to playerlist and how well she thought she was doing or how much she was enjoying the game.

So yeah, null alignmentwise.

lalendra's iso

anyway, eventually lalendra replaces in 710 reminds me of something a townie said in mini 1704. In that game I found the post as baffling as I found lalendra's post in this one because I didn't feel like this (or that) game had been that much of an incomprehensible meta circle jerk and as the newbs were making it out to be but i'm failing theory of mind a lot lately so it's possible i'm just having trouble putting myself in newer players shoes. But my own feelings were that the game was about 5% talk about meta and alts and 95% talk about what people in this game are doing and it was weird to zero in on the 5%. But that other newbie did the same thing in mini 1704 and they were town...

I think the fact that lalendra has only figured out toDay what uncounterclaimed mason means in terms of mislynchability is bad.

With her nightkill analysis on day 4 (which I asked her for), she was talking exclusively about who was suspecting whom and it looked kind of like she was trying to frame me for the kills by suggesting i'd be killing people who suspected me instead of mason hunting. But on the other hand, not realising that the scum should be mason hunting with their nightkills instead of whatever the fuck the scumteam have been actually doing with their nightkills feels like the mindset of someone who has never been scum before.

But no actually I think this is a case of not realising that it's okay to acknowledge that the scum are/should be mason hunting. it's a faked townslip. because everyone in the game knows that the scum should be mason hunting and pretending to not know that it's like trying to pretend you don't have more information than everybody else but not knowing what information everybody else has. Yeah, fuck it lalendra is scum.

random's iso

so random starts out voting Ika and I know that I said voting your buddy makes Jeanne11 more likely to be scum than not but I'm going to say that random doing it makes him

less

likely to be scum because he's not jeanne11.

He wants to policy lynch ika in 151, which yeah I just said I tried to do that to my buddy in mini 1675 (it was jeanne11 of course i tried to pl her) and kinda sorta in n1615 too (he used dice tags of course i bussed him), but ika had been playing well as of 151. He wasn't lurking yet. He was active and engaged. A wait and see approach would make more sense for ika here. I also think that trying to policy lynch your scumbuddy is unusual behaviour. Just because I've done it before doesn't mean I think everyone does it or that it's particularly likely to happen in a game.

I'm basically townreading all of random's posts except the prodges.

mastina's posts

A lot of mastina's posts are null because I think the words she's saying are words she could say as either alignment BUT I think that her actions are more likely to happen in a game with town mastina instead of scum mastina.

I think she'd be buddying me more if she were scum. In Inorganic Chemistry, she was buddying me

just in case I replaced in

and I townread her for it there even though I wasn't playing. lol. Also she saw how well buddying tends to work on me in WDPT with bbmolla. In general if scum are buddying me it works but if town are buddying me I get paranoid of them.

I felt like her push on firebringer was a bit easy but firebringer really needed to eat rope, with the way he was behaving there was no one else who could have been lynched that day because he was making himself obvscum-or-vt and nobody was going to shoot him thinking he was a mason and I'm sure we were all really hoping that a VT would get nightkilled so this fucking game would be over.

n1636, scum, replaced out around the time she replaced out of this one

^This should tell you it's a null-tell.

I know; before doing the research I thought that it was more cut and dried than it was. I thought it was a legit trust tell but now it's more murky. Thinking that jeanne trusttold was the only reason I had for townreading lalendra's slot and with that gone...

Shaddowez: I'd really like it if you could share your thoughts.

Apparently I forgot to post my V/LA in this thread, so I apologize for that.

I don't like 932 or 933. Lalendra isn't trying to clarify anything, and rather than try to convince us of anything she just claims VT. mastin's explanations all seem to make sense to me, and neither of them have really changed my opinions at this time. I'm going to stick with my gut from yesterDay.

VOTE: Lalendra

This is

L-1

.

I'm glad to hear that you were V/LA because I was starting to get paranoid that with lalendra vs mastina you had your last two mislynches lined up and then didn't want to say anything in the thread to jinx your endgame, but I've been townreading you for a while now, I could make an extended towncase for you in fact, but your lack of participation in the last couple day phases was making me nervous. Your predecessor was scummy but I've liked a lot of your posts and I think if you're scum then the game state makes less sense.

Are you back from V/LA now?

Intent to hammer Lalendra

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Bella says she'll post something later tonight.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Ok, so chatted with the plotti-master and we believe shadow is town, mastin is prolly town and lal kinda has to be scum.

VOTE: lalendra

[Rainbow Unicat]

(I am here and I have things to say but I want to hear what shaddowez has to say before I say any of them.)

@Mod: Bella head is V/LA until the 27th. I'll still be here and posting and stuff

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

So, just to be sure, it is still the case that neither of you feel like counterclaiming me? It would make me happy if one of you felt like doing that. It would save me some trouble.

(and yeah, baiting the nightkill is something I do when I'm frustrated with a game. I try not to do it when I'm a PR but it's really frustrating not to have a way out of a game that has becoming soul crushing for me, but we reached a point where we just needed one more VT nightkill to win the game and I was feeling somewhat better and at that point it felt like continuing to bait the nightkill was playing against my win condition so I played up the LOOK AT ME I AM TOTALLY BAITING THE NIGHTKILL ARENT I YEAH THAT IS ME RIGHT HERE NIGHTKILL BAITING YEP angle and hey it worked except for the part where i'm stuck here in LYLO and I hate LYLO.)

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Shaddowez, do you have anything to say?

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Good morning! I'm not quite awake yet but I'm reading and listening. I wanted to see what the two of you would say/do with minimal interference from me, that's why I've been quiet these past few days and writing private notes instead of public thoughts. I'm glad that the two of you are active and engaging with the game. I'll start posting more too, now.

Mastina, you said that you thought/knew duppin was a mason based on the game that you reviewed but can you show me specifically what about his posts in the range page 32-33 led you to believe that he was a mason and not scum or a VT? His posts were:

Spoiler: 3 duppin posts

Alright I'm here.

@Shaddowez Do you honestly believe Aristo was bussing me? That's.. well.

His scum flip wasn't that surprising no. I had a slight town read on him day 1 and going in to day 2. I did however also state that his vote on me was pretty weird.

I'd really like to hear from Lalendra today.

@Shaddowez Do you honestly believe Aristo was bussing me? That's.. well.

What I

think

is that you were a slow moving wagon that didn't seem to have much traction, which let Ari put a vote there without much concern about actually lynching somebody while looking like he was doing something.
What I

know

is that despite the wagon on Ari yesterDay, you kept putting off discussion and were rather vague in your answers, and your vote never went on him.

The only thing giving me pause about putting my vote back on you is your vote being on Heartless the Day they were killed, because that's a whole lot of WIFOM I don't feel like getting into right now. I'm also looking to hear more from Lalendra, and will probably reserve my vote until I do.

He voted on me day 1 as well (well on my slot). There is no way we are aligned, no matter how hard you try to twist it.
No I never voted on him and you know exactly why because I explained it. I didn't like your vote on him and found it suspicious. Obviously irrelevant now due to his flip.

I believe the game is fairly simple at this point. I think there is at least one scum (possibly both) between ika, Firebringer and Lalendra.

And considering Lalendra voted on ika, I think I want to join that train first.

VOTE: ika

I'll have more questions for various people and will reread more after coffee and stuff probably.

It will be at least a few days before I'm ready to vote (especially because my hydra partner is v/la, but also because I don't know who to vote for yet and as much as I want this to be over, I still want to do my best.)

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Ok, I can't think of why you'd say at the time that you knew duppin was a mason based on those 3 posts if you didn't believe him to be masons with shaddowez, so that checks out. I think you know that I'd be alert for signs of knowing more about the game state that you're supposed to.

Why weren't you paranoid of me when I quickly added you to the townbloc right after your subbing in?

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

In n1615, I left a friend of mine alive until LYLO, even though (or perhaps because) I looked up to and respected him a lot as a player. I could have nightkilled him early because I was fairly sure he'd catch me eventually since I was still a newb and it was my very first time being scum and he was one of my mafia crushes. The tracker was outed on day 1 but he was townreading me and my buddy and there was little chance he'd get a guilty so I could have killed my friend then, but I didn't. And then after I killed the PRs I still could have killed him before LYLO, but I killed one of the obvtown newbies instead. I wanted to see if he could catch me. My win would mean so much more to me, if the person I respected didn't catch me. The newb I killed would have voted anybody but me for sure. It was risky. But I did win and it was awesome.

Bella is pretty sure that one of the reasons we weren't nightkilled early on (aside from how badly I fell on my arse on day 1 with the preflip associatives between 3 VTs, but I do think it's been pretty clear along that I've been an uncounterclaimed mason all this time), is that ika likes us and wanted us alive while he was alive to keep the game fun for him. And then after ika died it did become clear that I'm having an off game and was unlikely to recover. But also I've been having flickers of paranoia that mastin might be doing to me what I did to my friend in n1615.

I don't really know what to do about that aside from mentally drafting an apology note to my friend.

Maybe it's just something I'm telling myself to make me feel better about being conftown still alive 5 day phases after I claimed because of my townbeard status.

But it's okay. I'm starting to see some signs of the old Plotinus, one I haven't seen since July sometime, the Plotinus who was happy most of the time and could string thoughts together coherently and was wrong less often than I have been lately.

Been reading through a bit. For most of the game I'd been so focused on how appallingly wrong about everything that I was being that I neglected to notice that other people were also wrong sometimes. I was only right about 1 slot (varian's. and ika's once he started lurking but that's pretty obvious), but I spent most of the game thinking that everybody but me was right about everything and that's...not true. It sounds obvious but it's kind of like waking from a fog for me.

I do have plenty of people that I want to apologise to in the endgame for my behaviour but that can wait until after LYLO.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

To put it another way: your actions never really entered my mind as being likely scum. I'm pretty sure I considered it at least once, but took a quick look and ended up dismissing it as being incredibly unlikely or even impossible.

I feel like my aggressive day 1 play matches the inaccurate impression of my scum meta that I thought you had, though. But nevermind; we can talk about it after the game.



I've been rereading but I was just leaving it in my private notes, but I'm ready to start posting it publically. I'll be referring to your predecessors by your names to keep things clearer. Everybody's predecessors were scum.

Anyway.

page 1

.

Mastin

votes

ika

for the same reason that I voted

ika

.

Aristophanes

votes me because he doesn’t like hydra.

Mastin

unvotes

ika

and votes

duppin

for a second RVS vote, this time sheeping

wingback

’s reasoning.

Ika

votes

Vedith

for not random voting.

Mastin

fluff posts about song lyrics.

page 2

Ika

greets townfriends.

Shaddowez

notices that he’s the last to start posting and votes

vedith

for not voting.

Mastin

puts

vedith

at L-1 and implores us not to quick hammer.

Bella

was worried about

shaddowez

' vote.

Mastin

explains what a pressure vote is.

Ika

greets townfriends some more.

page 3

Varian

complains about

Vedith

’s “3rd vote on the wagon is scum” theory and

Shaddowez

echoes this as if it were his own point without mentioning that he’s agreeing with

Varian

.

Mastin

continues to explain the L-1 but please don’t hammer thing and talking about getting reactions from other players.

I think if we’ve reached the point where we’re explaining that our reaction test was a reaction test we are also at the point of explaining what reads we’ve gotten out of the reaction test but

Mastin

doesn’t do this.

I remember in my last scum game I was also a bit reticent about what I was getting out of the things I was allegedly doing for reactions. And I think I also explained that I was doing stuff for reactions a little bit sooner than I should have, which

Mastin

definitely does here.

Ika

pushes the

vedith

wagon some and hardtownreads his friends, and also ties himself to

firebringer

a bit.

page 4

Aristophanes

prodged.

Bella

asked

ika

for reads and he asked her which ones.

Shaddowez

announces he’s still in RVS.

ika

insists to

heartless

that we’re town and wants to 1v1.

Mastin

offers her sword to

ika

for that. Then she says that she found

lalendra

’s vote on her opportunistic.

ika

continues to focus on

Bella

.

page 5

Mastin

votes

lalendra

.

Arist

townreads

Vedith

and positions himself to go back on that read if necessary, attacks

Mastin

for putting

Vedith

at L-2. Whiteknights

Vedith

some against

Varian

.

Aristo

clarifies that he doesn’t think it’s scummy that

Mastin

put

Vedith

at L-1 because it’s obvious, thinks it’s misguided.

Mastin

responds that nobody feels threatened if you state intent to put someone at L-1.

Arist

thinks I overreacted to being misgendered. I make a reads list townreading two scum. Final scum was either in the lurk sack who may be scum category or the maybe scum category. The 3 leading wagons are on town and 2 of them are scum driven.

Mastin

still thinks we’re scum reading her for the L-1 post but most of us are now scum reading her for being overly defensive about the L-1 post.

Aristo

says it's just how things go, people don’t look at motivations but just jump on poor wording.

Ika

wants to talk to

tth

, and wants more time to sort

bella

. wants to know why

heartless

would vote

duppin

.

shaddowez

unvotes

vedith

because

vedith

has random voted already.

[Rainbow Unicat]

page 6

Aristo

fishes for whether

Fire

would be a good nightkill.

ika

asks

bella

for reads.

bella

’s reads are more accurate than mine; she’s town reading

ika

, null on

aristo

, and scum reading

mastin

and

shaddowez

.

aristo

announce he doesn’t want to pl

ika

.

ika

defends

bella

against

heartless

some more.

persivul

(

aristo

’s predecessor site flakes. i know the reason for this and it wasn’t about this game.)

page 7

Mastin

suggests policy lynching

ika

(she later claims this was a joke in response to

aristo

saying he doesn't want to pl

ika

).

ika

talks to

tth

and

me

some more.

Aristophanes

replaced

Persivul

and promises to read up.

page 8

Aristo

posts to say that he’ll post later and greets me.

Mastin

goes on v/la and says she may have to replace out.

Heartless

says that

mastin

was overly defensive as town in another game. I think? Anyway I looked at their ISO there and I didn’t get much out of it because it’s a different game and not one I played in and it’s hard to get a feel for it.

Mastin

wants someone to give a valid reason for scum reading her.

Shaddowez

shows up out of nowhere and votes

firebringer

because he hasn’t seen much from him. At that time, it had been 3 hours since

firebringer

last posted, but his ISO had been pretty fluffy up until then.

People point out the hypocrisy of a lurker voting a (non)lurker for lurking and

Shaddowez

says “fair enough”.

Aristo

finally shows up and posts something for real. Says

mastin

doesn’t seem that scummy just a little awkward and backs this up with meta. Fencesits on this read a bit and says he’ll keep an eye on

mastin

. Says that

ika

is posting well and that’s a good sign. Suggests that there’s one scum in the lurkers:

lalendra

,

firebringer

,

shaddowez

, and

duppin

. Three of these have flipped town and I’d not expect that to be an all town list.

ika

asks

tth

if it’s good or bad that

anti

feels like it’s a newbie game.

page 9

Shaddowez

’s reasons for town reading us are still pretty weak. Neither of us had yet done anything we couldn’t fake as scum. I think I’d be less likely to strong-arm a lynch on town as scum and burn all my towncred in one go, especially not one based on preflip associatives with two other townies, but I hadn’t done that yet. But they’re new; newbies might think that giving a reads list is hard for scum because they find it hard themselves? idk.

Mastin

responded adequately to our “are we scum reading you for the wrong reasons” question.

Mastin

admits to taking longer to get her head into the game and having trouble getting early reads.

ika

chitchats.

Wanderer

is scum reading both

mastin

and

shaddowez

.

Aristo

pushes on

fire

for not scumhunting much.

page 10

Mastin

defends herself against

Varian

some more.


--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

page 11

All town wagon on

mastina

, who is at L-2.

Vedith

is scumreading both

mastina

and

shaddowez

and townreading

ika

and

aristo

.

Anti

says the

mastina

lynch is suboptimal because it's mainly about being self centered which is more of a humantell than a scumtell in his opinion. He votes

shaddowez

because a lot of people have been scumreading him without voting him (of these people, the only scum is Aristo in 192, everyone else was town.)

My bout of preflip associatives insanity begins. This is going to be painful to read, isn't it. You can see that I knew it was terrible at the time. I even waited another 3 pages for some sign that I was on the right track or not but confbias. Ugh.

Shaddowez

unvotes

Firebringer

for giving some reads and attempting to scumhunt. Attempting makes it sound like he knows that

Firebringer

's reads are off which...they weren't that far off if I look at the numbers. At the time of that post,

Fire

was scumreading

aristo

,

mastin

,

shaddowez

, and

wingback

townreading

duppin, heartless,

ika

,

us, wanderer

, and null on

lalendra, varian, vedith

. So I think it's nitpicky to go after the phrasing "attempting" when

Fire

was succeeding pretty well.

Aristo

tells

shaddowez

his posts are crap because of sheeping and because he's incoherent.

Aristo

says

mastin

is a bad vote but he can't elaborate because he's at work. Says

ika's

scumplay is transparent and that the best lynches are

duppin

and

shaddowez

. It should be noted that the masons didn't have daytalk this game so it's really doubtful that the scum have daytalk. This post looks like distancing to me, especially the part where he says that the best lynches are

duppin

first

shaddowez

later.

Anti

says he loves that everyone thinks

shaddowez

is scum but nobody's voting him. He later clarifies that it's

Wanderer

,

Vedith

, and

Aristo

that are scumreading

shaddowez

but not voting him.

Mastin

says that she thinks scum wouldn't be as clueless as

shaddowez

is being which is a sentiment I tend to share but when someone only has 100 posts to their name and they've never been scum before you can see surprising lack of situation awareness.

Mastin

votes

heartless

based on meta. Let's update the votecount to the time of that post:

Vote Count 1.05 and a half

mastina

[3] -

Lalendra, Varian-, Firebringer

[L-4]

duppin

[3] -

Wingback, Vedith

,

Aristophanes

[L-4]

Vedith

[1] -

ika

Shaddowez

[1] -

Heartless

Heartless

[1] - mastina

Not Voting

[4] -

Duppin, Wanderer-nl, Rainbow Unicat

, Shaddowez

The reason I did this exercise was because mastin was at L-2 at the top of this page and her wagon is in the process of falling apart and it's interesting that she's starting a brand new wagon instead of voting her counterwagon (duppin).

This post is really long but a lot happened on page 11. we're getting into the meat of the game now I think.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Both of you please do keep talking to me. I understand why you might feel it's pointless to talk to each other, but you both have every reason to talk to me. Please announce V/LA in thread if you're going on one or I'll probably draw the wrong conclusions about your silence (or the right one for the wrong reasons etc.)

page 12

5 people (1 scum, 4 townies, 0 unknowns) get prodded!

mastin

is on holiday and says she'll just go with the flow because can't do content.

ika

prodges in response to his prod.

Vedith

thinks lack of interest means VT which is interesting (but not relevant to this LYLO) because it meant

mason

for us and scum for

ika

. I think I would have had more fun hydraing in 5 games at once if I'd played

mini 1704

as Rainbow Unicat instead of Acutest Kitty, and

micro 508

as Acutest Kitty instead of Rainbow Unicat, and

micro 507

as Rainbow Unicat instead of BeardedCat, and

this game

as BeardedCat instead of Rainbow Unicat. it would have been better all around! It's just funny because neither of us like being town and this hydra has only been town so far.

aaaaaaaaand

Shaddowez

ignores everything that has been said in the intervening page and just replies to

Aristo

(without quoting so it's hard to see that's what he just did) and replaces out.

UNVOTE:

Firebringer

He's given some reads and looks like attempting to scumhunt.

Looking at the other wagons, I don't really see how

Vedith

is scum. He uses good lynch/bad lynch (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p7006943)

TheCow

kinda confused me with 157, but from what I can get he was on alcohol and made a bad vote. He was V/LA until Sunday, but hasn't posted since.

Random voted

Vedith

into L-1 quite early in the game, which is possibly scum to me (possibly trying to get a quick lynch or having the target mess up)

Your posts are crap. All you seem to have done here is reiterate others' thoughts (not ones which lead to anything either) and said

Vedith

is likely not scum due to the other wagons, which tells us nothing. What did you mean by that?

Random is still a bad vote, alas I am at work and can't elaborate. Typical Random play.
Also, to whomever asked (I forget now) I'm not an alt but have played in a few games with

Ika

. His meta is pretty easy to see and is raged about enough.

Current best lynches are

Steak

, with Donuts for dessert.

I meant that I would give my opinion on the other wagons, not that they were something I thought made

Vedith

not scum.



@Mod I won't be able to post for 7 days starting tomorrow, so I would like to be replaced.

I know he says he's busy offline but it just...looks bad.

And then I make a bad case on

Vedith

. This was a day or so after I noticed my cat was dying though and I couldn't afford to eat anything but potatoes and onions at the time so it was really hard to rub two thoughts together and get a spark. What I'm saying is that I'm about to get really bad at mafia for a while and it's not going to get better until this week.

asdfjklé I even say "Preflip associatives are bad" part of my case against him is that he used preflip associatives. whelp. I knew this was going to bad.

You are going to feel pretty silly afterwards
My only fault here is trying to push for more involvement from such a quiet town.

I'm sorry,

Vedith

Well let's make the most of it and see how the scum react to this distraction I'm providing.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

page 13

Several townies like my case and join the wagon, a few like

Heartless

and

Fire

disagree with it.

Mastin

joins the wagon because she had wanted to make a case that I was scum with

Vedith

and was surprised that I'd beaten her to the punch with a giant

Vedith

case.

shaddowez

,

duppin

, and

Wingback

replace in. From here on, references to

shaddowez

will be about the player currently holding the slot, not his predecessor. He unvotes and promises to read up.

page 14

shaddowez

enters are reads up and produces a reads list with explanations. He's leaning nulltown on

Vedith

, scumreading

Firebringer

, townreading

Heartless

, doesn't want to vote

mastina

because

Firebringer is doing so

.

Shaddowez

is the first to notice that

ika

has disappeared. He votes his top scumread,

Firebringer

.

So you've finally stopped mirroring each other (both of your predecessors being scummy) and now one of you has joined the wagon, claiming that you had wanted to start the same wagon, and the other of you is making a towncase for the wagonee. Now if only I could figure out whether this is a case of

mastin

being opportunistic or a case of

shaddowez

wanting towncred for being off the wagon. Ugh.

Shaddowez

asks

Firebringer

what he thinks of

Wingback

replacing out when there was a wagon growing on him but

Wingback

didn't have more than one vote at a time on him and didn't replace out but gradually disappeared and then flaked entirely.

shaddowez

had just read the thread so all of this was fresh in his mind. It's possible he thought people wouldn't look it up or remember.

Duppin and Wingback

show up and promises to catch up later.

ika

prodges.

At this point there's only 2 days left until the deadline.

Wanderer

votes

shaddowez

because she likes how

Vedith

has been posting lately and doesn't like

shaddowez's

entrance with the way he's going after

fire

.

Wingback

votes me and attacks my

Vedith

case. I had not yet publically said that I was thinking the scumteam was

heartless-wingback-vedith

(in that order, actually. i went after the most tenuous link first because I thought that would give me the most information.) and since I was already scumreading them, it looked like a chainsaw to me. + being a mason does weird things to your head.

shaddowez

attacks

mastina

in 343

Vote count at that time:

Vote Count 1.07 and a half

Vedith

[3] -

ika

,

Rainbow Unicat

randommidget

randomidget

[3] -

Simple Hope, Varian-

, shaddowez

shaddowez

[2] -

Heartless, Wanderer-nl

Rainbow Unicat

[2] -

Wingback, Firebringer

duppin

[1] -

Aristophanes

Not Voting

[2] -

duppin, Vedith

So this is interesting because if both the leading wagons at the end of the day are on town (which they must be if

shaddowez

is scum, then I wouldn't expect scum to have a preference between them, and

Shaddowez

could have put

Vedith

at L-3 instead of putting

mastina

at L-4 if he wanted to; I mean he definitely wasn't positioned right for it but he'd just entered the thread as a replacement a little while ago so he could have positioned himself differently if he'd wanted to. Of course,

ika

was already on the wagon but we're very nearly deadline scrambling here.

Fire

asks

shaddowez

what he thinks of us and he says he's having trouble getting through our walls but will give it another try later. It was after midnight in his timezone when he wrote that so fair enough.

Aristo

prodges.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

page 15

I can sense that enough people are scumreading me now that they may try to wagon me while we're deadline scrambling so I start softing mason, just a little bit, hinting that even if

Vedith

flips town, they might not want to wagon me after all.

mastin

explains they're a bad day 1 player which I can sympathise with but people don't townread me for complaining about it. This is the first time I get that the post all those pages ago saying policy lynch

ika

was a joke, but I'm not good at getting jokes and I can see it now that it's pointed out, but it's interesting (but might not mean anything) that it was with

aristo

he was riffing off of with the joke.

Wanderer

points out that if

shaddowez

is mislynch bait then why isn't there a wagon and it's true there never was a wagon even though everyone agreed that

shaddowez

predecessor was scummy.

Anti

tried to start one but it never took off.

We get a deadline extension.

Wingback

tries to drive our wagon.

ika's

internet stops working which buys him time since he has a real life excuse for his inactivity. He won't be lynched until his internet is fixed and he remains inactive.

Heartless

points out that it's bananas to name associatives in a masons game and votes us. The wagon on me is more serious now so I soft masons some more.

1) My case on Vedith is not built on associatives. I could build an independent case for any of you but I'm focusing on Vedith today.
2) It is not bananas when Plotinus does it.

<-- This was fake egotism actually. I was saying that I was a mason so I could do preflip associatives without worrying that I was hitting a mason. I did not actually believe that I could have avoided hitting the masons with preflip associatives if I'd been a VT.

3) the associatives are only getting stronger between the people actually posting, obv.
4) defending Vedith is only a small part of it.
5) i'm not getting lynched today please vote vedith.

<-- more softing

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

page 16

TTH

figures out that we're softing something but votes

shaddowez

because she doesn't like the

Vedith

wagon composition. At the time, that was

ika

,

me

,

mastin

so at least one scum.

In retrospect she was really kind to me once she realised we were being townbeard and in a TvT with her.

duppin

joins us on

Vedith

and states his dislike of our wagon.

Anti

joins the wagon too and says he'll explain it to TTH later.

Vedith

was suspicious that

shaddowez

was whiteknighting him and thought his vote on

Firebringer

was weak. He's townreading

mastin

because he thinks her frustrationg about the L-1 wagon was town frustration.

I know a lot of people don't consider the reads of lynched town players because they were lynched for a reason, but sometimes when I'm scum I lynch people because they're right about their reads. In this case, Vedith was mostly lynched by town since I was the wagon driver but scum still allowed this lynch to happen, and whether that was by being afk (

ika and aristo

) or by helping push (

mastina maybe

) or by not fighting it harder

shaddowez maybe

remains to be seen.

I go on V/LA because my cat was dying. I start posting a lot less after this.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

page 17

Varian

does intent to hammer.

shaddowez

prodges after his usual weekend v/la and promises to be back the next night.

Wanderer

wants to lynch

shaddowez

because most of his attack on

mastin

was based on stuff that had already been resolved and because his not reading my ISO was lazy (it's been a couple days since he tried and failed to read our ISO).

Vedith

claims VT.

Wingback

thinks Vedith is a poor lynch because he claimed VT and that scum should claim mason to draw out the real masons. This makes a lot of sense but none of the scum in this game did that. He votes

shaddowez

and tries to get the wagon going, listing the people who would be interested in the wagon, but he doesn't do much driving and I probably wouldn't have let it go through because I was being stubborn. I'm less sure now that he was who I thought he was but it doesn't really matter. Unfortunately, his next target after me is

wanderer

which fueled our paranoia.

shaddowez

says that it's not lazy to want to finish reading someone's ISO instead of just proclaiming them town/scum and I can feel that frustration because I remember in refraction it took me an entire week to get through Thor's ISO and it was really difficult reading and I had to do it at my own pace to get a read. He defends himself against

Wingback

citing the deadline and the constitution of his wagon and what

Wingback

's reads are which is a good point I think.

shaddowez

makes good on his promise to read our ISO. Sometimes scum put off reading, always promising to make a case later, hoping that if they put it off long enough a townie will do it for them. Unlike

shaddowez

' predecessor, I feel like he's townreading us for the right reasons, or at least for more nuanced ones.

Varian

hammers, and it's the end of day 1.

Varian

was nightkilled. Their reads looked like this at the time of their death:

Spoiler: numbers

aristo

+?=89

duppin

+?=89 +174 ==175

firebringer

+?=89 -146 -174 +241 =401

heartless

=89 =146 =284

ika

-?286

mastina =?37 -51 =146 -175 v176 -241 -284 =286 -301

rainbow unicat

+?=89 =146 +301 +311

shaddowez +?=89 -?349

Vedith

v-27 -31 u37 -51 v53 -?=84 =146 -284 =286 -288 -301 -311 -349 -401 v413

Wanderer

-?349

Wingback

+?=84 -?349 -413

Varian

felt more strongly about

mastina

being scum than he did about

shaddowez

. He hadn't talked much with

Aristo

(and 89 might not have even been about him, it was a response to

Anti

wanting to vote everybody on the page.) His one interaction with

ika

looked like a push.

day 2

Fire

votes

mastina

, assuming that

Varian

was killed because he was onto something.

Wanderer

thinks it was because he was obvtown. In retrospect I think that

Varian

was a low frequency high quality poster who came off as insightful instead of lurky.

ika's

internet is back.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

page 18

Maybe

Fire

was trying to bait the nightkill too in his own way.

Shaddowez

makes a case against

duppin

. I can understand where he's coming from because

TheCow

looked a lot like a newer player who'd got a scum role pm for the first time and didn't know what to do about it, and then gradually faded away, except they were town.

...I can't even read my posts. It was a day after my cat died that I wrote that and it makes me sad reading it again. I'm just going to skip my own posts. Ugh I hate this game and I hate my photographic memory.

shaddowez

keeps pushing on

duppin

for a while.

Wanderer

is townreading

shaddowez

and nullreading

mastin

.

Fire

votes us.

Aristo

prodges.

ika

tells people not to vote us.

Heartless

votes

duppin

too.

ika

goofs off with his friends.

[Rainbow Unicat]

page 19

ika

wants to know why we're strong townreading

mastin

(i don't remember that we were except that they weren't

vedith-heartless-wingback

so they must be town.) and said

shaddowez

' posting seemed good.

ika

wants to do nk spec with

tth

. She says that

Varian

wasn't mislynchable so he made sense as a kill.

ika

wonders if

heartless

thinks

Varian

might have also been killed for his reads or because he was a suspected mason.

Heartless

and

duppin

start their TvT.

Fire

whiteknights us against

Fire

some more and begs

ika

to start participating more.

Fire

is scumleaning

mastin

and nullscumleaning

shaddowez

.

page 20

duppin

is townreading

mastin

and

shaddowez

but he's less sure of the

mastin

read.

Fire

is scumreading

shaddowez

,

mastin

, and us, and

mastin

is on the scummier side of the list.

Anti

and I have a TvT but both of us are polite about it. He takes time out to teach me a few things.

I think I'm done for the night. I'm halfway through rereading.

--P still.

[Rainbow Unicat]

Clarifications are welcome! Anything you feel like providing would be nice, yeah. I'm not very good at metadiving yet but there are some things I can look for I think.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Trying to go through your recaps, have to admit the use of our current names for the slots got a bit confusing sometimes. Moreso, there are a few things I want to make sure you're posting right. I'll refer to them by post number, then page number, then paragraph number as appropriate. A lot of them may just be formatting things, but would rather be sure than assume anything.

982, Page 16, P4. You have mastin in green. Formatting?

yeah. hit the wrong button, because it was right after the word townreading and that made me think green.

983, Page 17, Spoiler. Could you explain the post numbers and symbols? I'm completely at a loss, mostly because you have the same post numbers for a lot of people, and they don't seem to say much.

sure. here's the way i've explained it in the past:

Spoiler: partial legend (there are new symbols since you last saw it, mastina)

+ working together with somebody, townreading them, defending them, buddying them, helping them, allying with them
- working against somebody, scumreading them, attacking them, pushing them, discrediting them
= neutral interactions, usually quoting somebody without either attacking or defending them, sometimes these are just interactions about setup spec or passing mentions of a slot, sometimes this is responding to a case someone made against you without making it clear whether you’re scumreading them in return or townreading them.
== stating explicitly that a person is a null read
? I didn’t understand this reaction. this modifies a previous symbol, so +? means “is this an interaction with a townread?” and -? means “is this an interaction with a scumread?” and +?-? means i have no clue what’s going on in that post.
v votes
u unvotes but only if someone says who they’re unvoting because i’m lazy
| marks boundaries between days. (NEW)
✝ a gravestone to mark that a slot has died. (NEW)
R marking the boundaries where a replacement occurred (NEW)

since it's

Varian

, I'm using it to reconstruct what his readslist would have looked like. + means he's probably townreading a slot. - means he's been pushing on that slot so possible scumread. = are neutral interactions that can be ignored. In plain english, varian was townreading

aristo

,

firebringer

, and us. He was scumreading

ika

,

mastina

,

vedith, wingback

and maybe

you

and

wanderer

(it was hard to tell from 349, that could have just been disagreeing). he was explicitly null on

duppin

, and probably also null on

heartless

.

If his reads played a factor in the kill, then it looks worse for

mastina

than it does for you. If it was mason hunting then it doesn't mean much.

A lot of my scumhunting is centered around tracking other people's reads progressions and comparing them to other scum slots I've encountered in the past, paying attention to how they treat their different buddies, and if I've played with a person before, I can compare what the numbers looked like in a previous game. I have numbers done up for everyone's slot until ika's death but after the readthrough I want to extend the two of yours to look at how you both behaved afterwards. My accuracy is better the more posts a person has.

If I have numbers meta for a slot then that helps a lot too, and I do have numbers meta from previous games with a few people but there are unfortunate caveats for all of it-- townmastin wasn't even posting in her hydra for the majority of that game, scumika was in a hydra and was killed early, and Persival is ongoing and can't be discussed.

985, Page 19, P4. Do you mean Ari where you have Fire the first time?

yeah, I did.


What I'm primarily looking at in the readthrough is the ways the town pulled the game in various directions and the ways that scum either let the gamestate be pulled in those directions or intervened to pull it in another direction. So if it looks like I'm just stating stuff that happened, that's true to an extent, but I'm gathering up all the pieces so I can hold them in my head at once.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Okay, Mastina. We've still got a week, so you have some time.

All mentions of your name so far in the readthrough are still your predecessor, btw.

<3

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Okay it's morning and I'm awake and it's fucking October when I wasn't done with September yet but I don't have a headache today so let's go back to getting this game over with.

page 21

duppin

and

Heartless

continue their TvT.

Heartless

continues to treat me better than I deserved.

ika

explains why he's not paranoid of

Bella

and we chat about a game they were in that had recently completed.

page 22

The TvTs continue.

Wingback

continues to primarily scumhunt the masons. Reading back over this I wonder how on earth people are supposed to scumhunt in a masons game. It seems doomed, you don't have any room for scumhunting without stepping on the masons toes and then the masons get paranoid because being a mason

does strange things

to your head, I've seen it happen to other people in previous games and yeesh.

I can appreciate

Wingback

's playstyle because tracking other people's reads progressions is important to me too, he just had bad luck this game and I think

Heartless

was right that focusing too sharply on people's reads progressions in public gives away too much information in a masons game, which sucks because I'm kind of a one trick pony in that regard.

Wingback

was asking a lot of questions to which the answers were often "because I'm a mason" or "because I think they're a mason" or "because I'm trusting my mason partners reads" or "because I'm trying to provide cover for the masons by giving off false clues about other slots too". Honestly, I think if I'd been a VT I would have been having as much trouble as

Wingback

was.

Someone mafia theory ramble at me postgame plz.

Bella

reread the thread and had an ugh read on

mastin

and a scumread on

shaddowez

and

Ari

. She was townreading

ika

still. She votes

shaddowez

.

The wagon on us starts up again after

Bella

's catchup post, but the first few votes are from town.

Mastin

returns, says she hasn't read anything and votes us, presumably based on the votes on that page.

ika

yells that we're town and not to vote us and

Mastin

hastily unvotes. I...this just doesn't feel like SvS to me.

Back, haven't read any therefore
VOTE: indicat

STOP FUCKING VOTING THEM THEY ARE TOWN

VOTE: unicat
In case that wasn't close enough
This isn't the town Bella I know and like.
PEdit: ssomeone is testy.
UNVOTE:
I went a bit boonskies there. Gonna have a think.
Ika could you explain why if you haven't already

If

Ika

weren't scum, it wouldn't look good for

mastin

because that's a really hasty reversal on voting and it looks like scumpanic at being yelled at but I don't see why scum would panic at being yelled at by their buddy. Even without daytalk. I can see scumpanic at being yelled at by town but

ika

isn't town.

You can tell

Wanderer

is wishing she could bus us for towncred on this page though. It's okay, I felt that way about

TheCow

.

Heartless

is still on

duppin

.

Masons. If you want a game to implode under the weight of a thousand TvTs, put a masonry in.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

page 23

shaddowez

is voting

duppin

.

Aristo

is prodded.

mastin

naked votes onto the

duppin

wagon. I'm not sure where this is coming from because

mastin

hasn't mentioned or interacted with

duppin

since 14 when they also voted him.

Bella

answers

Wingback's

questions and tries to engage

mastin

about that naked vote.

Aristo

prodges again.

Wingback

continues to prod the masons about why they're townreading each other. At this point, all 3 of us were convinced they were scum softing to their buddies who we were in case they got lynched.

ika

produces some meta reasons for townreading us.

shaddowez

keeps poking

duppin

. He engages with us some.

mastin

asks us why we're town which is a bad question. Asks if we think VCA would help. I think

mastin

looks slightly better than

shaddowez

on VCA but I'll get to that later. I've got a thing in our hydra PT about it. I'm not Titus though so that's not going to be the cornerstone of my decision.

I start poking at the scumteam for not managing to hit a mason. I did this throughout the game, but the only person who got defensive about it was

Firebringer

...

Wanderer

engages with

Wingback

for a while.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

(and I just noticed that instead of responding with why they're naked voting duppin,

mastin

asks us those "why are you town?" questions )

page 24

Ika

responds to

Wanderer

's request to engage. He wants her to give thoughts on

shaddowez

,

lalendra

, and

duppin

. I would not expect this to be an all town list.

Aristo

does a drunk catchup post. I think I want to start keeping track of the alignments of players who announce that they're drunkposting because I think as scum you're doing it hoping for towncred for not scumslipping while drunk and as town ... the only motivation I can think of is "oh I just drunkposted in my scumgame I should go drunkpost in my towngame too". Will do research. Later, though, because it has nothing to do with this LYLO.

Anyway,

Aristo

pushes on

duppin

some. Asks questions about our readslist. Wonders if my liking some of

wingback

's recent posting, disliking some of

firebringer

's recent posting, and liking a

shaddowez

post or two had no bearing on my reads which seems like he wants to nudge me towards a scumread on fire or a townread on

shaddowez

. He votes

duppin

, putting him at L-2.

randomidget

prodges again.

Heartless

starts a new wagon on

Aristophanes

.

shaddowez

wants to know why.

Wingback

starts townreading

duppin

but is scumreading me and

wanderer

still.

Wingback

calls

Aristophanes

out for taking potshots at us while still townreading us and for not having original reasons to suspect

duppin

.

ASP

replaces out.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

page 25

I'm prodging too, I'm just doing it discretely. I reply to

Aristo

some. At this point I'm not having any fun at all and just want to be nightkilled so I can stop playing so we have exchanges like 608 to 610 where I explain that I'm scumreading the people who aren't masons who are crumbing masons.

I start ISOing people. Let's see if anything I say makes sense (at this point I haven't a proper meal in over 3 weeks, just potatoes and onions). I remember I did take a lot of care to obscure who the masons were while doing my ISOing thing, beyond just not posting numbers.

I come to the correct conclusion about

Aristo

despite not having the one scumtell I'd decided was important to look for.

I make a towncase for

duppin

.

Wingback

accuses me of having high self esteem at literally the worst possible moment given what was going on in my personal life at the time but he couldn't have known that and I was trying to keep it out of my games. It's just unfortunate because I think in a different game at a different time with less masons we could have had a better town together experience than this game was.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

which isn't saying much.

page 26

Wanderer

is townleaning

Mastin

after ISOing her. She's starting to see

Aristo

as scum, too. She thinks scum are likely off the

Vedith

wagon.

Mastin

gives us a pass for not having answered her questions yet (these are the "why are you town" questions, still), and say she'll stop sheeping soon.

Randomidget

seems to know Bella, so I'm going to leave a question for

Bella

in our hydra PT.

It was probably a mistake basing so much of my reads this game on how people reacted to my "I am writing from the viewpoint of a mason" posting. Theory of mind stuff. I know I'm a mason so it should be obvious to everyone else especially when I'm being this obvious about it! That's how I felt. But some people couldn't figure it out and they were town. Others figured it out and responded appropriately and they were town. Scum probably couldn't figure out whether I was a VT nightkill baiting or what but nobody was counterclaiming me so that should have tipped them off I think.

I like 631 by

shaddowez

though, I think his push on

Wingback

is nuanced and people tend to townread me when I say things like that post. He wants to hear from

Aristo

what

Aristo

thinks of

duppin

and

Wingback

.

Heartless

wants to get the

aristo

lynch rolling. I say that I support it but want to finish ISOing before it goes through.

ika

wants hammer of course.

Wanderer

thinks

shaddowez

is being defensive.

Bella

pushes on

shaddowez

too, some.

Bella

stops townreading

ika

.

I can finally afford to start eating again.

I finish

Firebringer

's ISO and decide they're not scum together with

ika

and I should have stuck to that.

shaddowez

is on board with the

aristophanes

wagon but wants to read his ISO one last time.

He makes good on this promise 12 minutes later with a case against

Ari

.

---P

[Rainbow Unicat]

page 27

duppin

asks

shaddowez

some good questions!

Lalendra

replaces in.

Wingback

realises I'm town and votes

Aristo

.

Wanderer

and

Anti

chitchat.

page 28

ika

and

anti

chitchat.

Refeeding was making me sleepy all the time and I found that frustrating. I'd expected to be able to start rubbing thoughts together and getting a spark right away but it actually took a few weeks to recover.

I finally finish

Heartless

' ISO and explain why I was tunnelling them all game. It takes a lot to knock me out of a tunnel and the best I can manage at this stage is to bump them up to null.

I go through

Ika

's ISO and develop a correct scumread on him not just based on his activity levels but also on his interactions with other slots.

His first interaction with

Aristo

was in 635 when he is willing to hammer him. I went and looked at the numbers thing though and guess which other slots ika underacted with?

lalendra

,

mastina

,

shaddowez

. argh.

Ika

plz tie yourself to your buddies more clearly next time <3

I went through

simple hope

's ISO and the only reason I didn't want to lynch them was to give

lalendra

a little time to town it up if she could.

I looked at

randomidget

and came out with a null lean scum read on him in 681

That post is a words explanation of this:

mastina/randomidget

aristophanes/persivul

=107

duppin/thecow

v14 v555

firebringer

=274

heartless

-v274 =317 =600

ika

v7 u14 +94 -151 =355 =544

lalendra/simple hope

=57 -95 v100 =?112 -151 =184 =186

rainbow unicat

=7 =8 =23 +94 =112 =151 -203 =205 =245 +331 v541 -544 =565 =627

shaddowez/donottrustme

+266 =355

varian-

=47 +94 =245

vedith

v35 =100 =112 v238 v317 -331

wanderer

=44 =47 =61 =107 =207 =317 =565 =627

wingback

=627

Now that things are coloured in with flips, what I find most interesting is the uneven interactions with

ari/ika

, barely interacting with

ari

but interacting considerably more with

ika

.

Shaddowez

interacts with those two slots at equal frequency.

ika

interacts with

shaddowez

,

mastina

, and

ari

with equal frequency.

ari

interacts with

ika

and

shadowez

but not

mastina

with equal frequency. I find this very interesting.

But I'm going to finish reading the thread before voting because

mastina

hasn't even replaced in yet, and voting before finishing his catchup when badly for

BBT

(but very well for

me

) in n1615.

Next up is

Shaddowez

ISO. I come out of it with a townlean on him despite

donottrustme

's ISO. I start out this read quoting something

Oranje Crush

said about

Vonflare

for the lulz and because it's true of how bad donot's ISO was. I state that if

heartless

is town,

shaddowez

might not be, so it may be my continued

Heartless

tunnel that has me townleaning

shaddowez

.

shaddowez/donottrustme

aristophanes/persivul

=412 =631 -647 v648

duppin/thecow

=262 v428 -433 -563 =589 -631

firebringer

=123 v188 =191 u262 -v326 -328 -338 =589 -631

heartless

+326 +563 =589 =647

ika

-==326 =343 -563

rainbow unicat

+201 -=345 -=411 +412 =563 =589 +631

mastina/randomidget

-262 -==326 -v343 =589

varian-

+201 =412

vedith

v33 -54 u123 =191 =201 +262 =290 +==326 =338 =343 +411 =412

wanderer

-343 =411 =433 =589 -631 =647

wingback/montosh

-328 +345 -411 =433 -631

Plot, in retrospect it's going to be really obvious, but you're missing something. That's all I'm going to say.

I still want to know what

Heartless

meant by this.

Wanderer/Anti/us

have deteriorating reads on

ika

. This is looking bad for the scumteam because 1 buddy is being wagonned and the town is already gearing up to attack the next buddy. What do

mastina

and

shaddowez

do about this?

mastina

and

Ari

are prodded again.

ika

says he won't hammer if

ari

claims mason.

[Rainbow Unicat]

whee pagetop. above was still me of course.

page 29

I go through

wanderer

's ISO and try to write a towncase as if I didn't already know that she was town. Being a mason really is a lot like being scum.

I go through

Wingback

's ISO and acknowledge that I'm having trouble being objective about their slot but still don't manage to to townread them. My reads list is finally looking less upside down.

We announce intent to put

aristo

at L-1.

shaddowez

' 709 looks kind of like a "whelp my buddy is going down, better start tying him to people" post.

random

is being replaced.

I coach

lalendra

some.

Aristo

stalls.

Heartless

says

shaddowez

is pinging them. We get another deadline extension.

duppin

pushes on

shaddowez

some.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

It's morning again!

page 30

Aristo

tries to townpost because his lynch is looking inevitable. He replies to a bunch of people. I've been staring at it trying to find a difference in tone or something with how he talks to

shaddowez

vs how he talks to the townies he's addressing but I'm not really seeing anything. He seems annoyed at that shaddowez was picking at him for typoing his links, but that makes sense; typoing isn't a scumtell, and it's nitpicky.

Random

is still being replaced and

Aristo

only mentions him in the context of the replacement and the looming deadline and his impending lynch;

Aristo

doesn't address

ika

.

TTH

agrees with

anti

that

shaddowez

is freaking her out and unvotes

Aristo

after his wall.

Bella

suggests starting a train on

ika

because of meta. If the scumteam is

aristo/ika

/

shaddowez

then they should be in a panic by now because the heat has been turned up on all 3 slots and they don't have an unlocked PT they can panic in.

3 town votes pile onto

ika

pretty quickly.

Firebringer attempts VCA and thinks the middle of the Vedith train should be the most suspicious, random, duppin, and heartless. I think that's the sort of thing that is going to vary from site to site because it depends on site meta and scum play and town play are always in an arms race with each other, so if the middle of the wagon starts being suspect, scum will start avoiding the middle of wagons, and then the end of the wagon becomes suspect and the middle starts becoming the town zone, and then VCA adapts to that. So I don't know if the middle of the wagon thing is true of current MS site meta or not, but this is what the train looked like:

Vedith

-

ika

,

Rainbow Unicat

,

randommidget

,

duppin, Heartless, Firebringer, Varian

I think in current site meta, scum mostly want towncred for being off the town wagon and early on the scum wagon.

Wanderer

tells

Aristo

that we're not lynching

Duppin

today and that he should choose between

himself

and

ika

and asks

him

why we should lynch

ika

over

him

. This is a great question to ask somebody about their scumbuddy and I'm getting a feeling

Ari

probably won't answer but yeah I <3

wanderer

.

Anti

expands on what's wrong with

shaddowez

in 747: his case on

aris

doesn't make sense given his

duppin

scumread, his tendency to join soft-target wagons (

random

,

aris

),

tth

's first impression of

donot

was that he was scum.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

page 31

We get another deadline extension.

Wingback

and

shaddowez

are prodded. The reason I keep mentioning prods is because I'm thinking about negative spaces.

Ika

's avatar thing that he's doing is funny but I keep thinking "wait since when is elbirn in this game".

Ika doesn't care that he's being lynched and says his town pool is

firebringer, bella, heartless

, and

himself

which subverts the "always one scum in a list like that" trope.

shaddowez

is convinced that

Ari

was bussing

duppin

. This looks like trying to tie

Ari

to people. He defends his position on the wagon by pointing out that other people have been in second place on other wagons, and says there's nothing he can do about his predecessor, which is true.

Aristo

prodges again.

Shaddowez

wants to him lynched for prodging so much. We're all tired of this day phase and the votes pile on. and then he's lynched.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

page 32

This is the first page that mastin claimed to have read. Have you read more of the game by now, mastin? I suppose you've read as much of it as you're going to since you no longer have a decision to make but I'm curious.

Fire

wants the masons to reveal and

shaddowez

takes him to task for this.

Fire

tries to get

ika

to claim mason.

shaddowez

wants to hear from

duppin

who he says was slow to comment on the

Ari

wagon and was townleaning him. I just checked and this was basically true (though

duppin

was also basically absent while

Ari

was being wagonned.)

duppin

's only comments on

ari

were =478 and +566.

The masons veto

fire

's idea that the masons should reveal and start wagonning

ika

.

duppin

says

Ari

wasn't bussing him.

shaddowez

points out that duppin's wagon was a slow wagon that wasn't getting much traction, without really pausing to think that in a mason's game, a slow moving wagon doesn't neccessarily mean scum is resisting their buddy's wagon; it is just as likely to mean that the masons are resisting each other's wagons too.

But I don't really buy

shaddowez

's idea here that

Ari

was bussing

duppin

because

duppin

was a slow moving wagon because the reason the wagon was moving slowly was because of resistance, and it doesn't make sense for his buddies to both be bussing him and resisting his wagon at the same time. This argument stinks, and I don't think

shaddowez

really believes what he's saying because he's a good enough player to know how these things work.

Firebringer

and

shaddowez

try to engage with Lalendra some.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Heya mastina, thanks for letting me know. I hope family night goes as well as it can and that you have a good time dancing on Sunday. shaddowez is also V/LA on weekends. and Bella's v/la until Sunday too (more la than v)

I'm not going to vote until I have finished posting my reread of the thread, finished numbers, attempted VCA, and until you've both said something other than "prdoge". Also I have a hydra partner who should have some say in the decision as well.

Deadline is in (expired on 2015-10-07 18:30:00) on the 7th, which is a Wednesday.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

also i'm feeling a bit under the weather myself, will probably be better by Monday. ugh.

but i'm going to keep going with this because there's a lot on my todo list for this game still and I feel like I don't have time to waste. I can't believe I got through 277 pages in 10 days back in June. I'm only progressing at a rate of about 10 pages a day in this game. That game was easier though because it was a large.

page 33

In retrospect I have no idea why I didn't read 801 from

Lalendra

as newbietown. This is not the post of a player who has read a scum PT. This is the post of a player who doesn't yet have a repertoire of scumtells because they've never been scum before but they're enthusiastically trying to find scum anyway. I'm sorry for doubting you,

Lalendra

.

duppin

joins the

ika

train.

mastina

replies in and I greet her enthusiastically. From here on, every mention of your name is something you did, not your predecessor!

Wingback

is townreading

mastin

's slot.

Wanderer

wanted to hear a catchup post from

Mastin

before the end of the day and so did I but

Fire

lolhammered

ika

.

Wingback

was killed that night.

I try to get

mastin

to talk to me and needle at the scumteam for hitting a VT.

Heartless

and

Wingback

were both townreading

mastin

's slot and scumleaning

shaddowez

's slot at the time of their deaths. For the

wingback

kill that doesn't mean much for

mastin

because she would have been aiming for a mason, not worrying about who was reading her any which way.

Wingback's reads looked like this:

Spoiler: wingback/montosh

aristophanes/persivul

R -529 -560 -590 -616 v657 ✝

duppin/thecow

R =529 =560 +590 |

firebringer

R =529 -532 |

heartless

=166 =210 R | =431 +590 =616 ✝

ika

R =529 -532 =534 =616 | v809 ✝

lalendra/simple hope

R -560 -591 =616 | -809

rainbow unicat

R v340 -363 | +431 =529 -v532 -534 -560 -590 -616 -618 -618 -620 +657 +715 |

mastina/randommidget

-211 R | =529 =560 =590 =616 | +809

shaddowez/donottrustme

R -v410 | =431 =529 +532 -560 =616 |

duppin/thecow

v13 -138 -165 R | =529 -532 -560 +590 +616

varian-

-138 R ✝

vedith

+83 +138 =166 R +340 +410 ✝

wanderer

=138 =166 R | =431 =529 -532 =560 -590 =616 -657 -715 | =809

That is at the end of the day before he was killed, he was speculating the scumteam was

ika

/

lalendra

, was still scumleaning

wanderer

, was townreading

mastina

, was townreading

me

and

duppin

and had figured out that we were masons, was scumleaning

shaddowez

, and may have still been scumleaning

firebringer

.

shaddowez

enters the thread with a vote on

Lalendra

. He makes a case against her. He doesn't mention that

Wingback

was scumreading

lalendra

and was speculating on an

ika

/

lalendra

team. Maybe he's hoping we'll do that for him.

mastin

's first post is ok. I don't really see anything there that she'd couldn't say as either alignment. She provides some mafia theory help to

firebringer

, who had wanted the masons to out themselves. According to her checklist that's a towntell for her.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

(it's in her second post that she talks about mafia theory. forgot to say.)

page 34

Mastin

and I talk some more.

Fire

and

Wanderer

chitchat. I continue to be wrong about stuff.

I welcome

mastin

to the townbloc, half because of the nightkill and half to see how she'll respond to it.

I start getting paranoid of

Fire

.

page 35

Fire

and I are still chatting and I'm being catty.

I ask

Lalendra

for nightkill analysis.

Mastina

is still V/LA and doesn't want to share her scumreads yet. She has nightkill analysis thoughts but asks instead of garciaing which is appreciated.

Lalendra

thinks they were killed for their reads and because they both thought I was scum at one point though they had gone back on that read before their deaths, so she thinks the kill points to me.

shaddowez

ignores most of this discussion except to ask

Firebringer

for his thoughts, complaining that all he's done is talk with me and asks

Lalendra

what she thinks of

duppin

and asks

duppin

where he is.

Firebringer

is scumreading

Mastin

,

Wanderer

, and

Lalendra

.

Mastin

thinks

heartless

was killed because they said that

ari

wasn't a mason which made it sound like they knew who the masons were and might be a mason themselves. I agree that is a possibility, and point out that

wingback

had done something similar in his last post, but the broader context was they weren't masons because they were scumreading me and I was a mason and masons don't scumread each other.

I continue to taunt the scumteam. I was hoping someone would get defensive. I think I was also being catty because I knew I'd also been playing terribly.

Fire

and

Wanderer

were suspicious of

Mastin

.

duppin

votes

Fire

.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

feeling a little better today, not much. let's get these last few pages over with though.

page 36

shaddowez

takes

fire

to task for talking about masons. This is a protown statement (and one I would make as any alignment.)

mastina

votes

Firebringer

.

mastina

, have you played with Firebringer before in any completed games? He's new to the site but he plays like 15 games at a time so he's got quite a few completed ones already.

Firebringer

burden of proficiencies

mastina

.

mastina

finds some associatives between

Pers

and

Fire

, and between

Ari

and

Fire

. It worries me that she only provides links in the

Scum

->

Firebringer

direction and none in the

Firebringer

->

scum

direction, because scum like to tie themselves to people but it's more meaningful if the player of unknown alignment then ties themselves to the scum in return. It doesn't necessarily make them scum for sure, but it makes it more likely.

Anyway,

firebringer

continues mason fishing and the masons quickhammer him because he accidentally ruined the plans we'd set up to catch the last scum and the mason fishing felt like it could have been scum to us.

Mastina

comments that

Firebringer

's ISO with regard to

Aristo/ika

looks bad and explains what she means by that, that he townreads them except when to join their wagons later on like reluctant bus, but she doesn't provide quotes the way she did for the other direction.

Aristoika

would be a good hydra name. pronounced Ah-wrist-TOY-kuh.

Filling in the blanks in 896, if

Fire

hadn't outed the masons, the nightkill analysis would have been: If we're nightkilled on night 4, then it's

mastin

, otherwise it's probably

lalendra

.

The main reason I was townreading

shaddowez

was because I felt like he was playing my scum meta and almost everyone I've thought that of so far has flipped town, but not absolutely everyone; there was one player who was scum after all.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

page 37

In response to

Firebringer

outing the masons, I play up the baiting the nightkill angle. Then

Firebringer

and I yell at each other for a while. I do feel that I crossed the line and hurt his feelings there and I'm sorry.

It is now day 5.

Lalendra

naked votes

mastina

.

shaddowez

says he thinks

mastin

is town and wants to go after

Lalendra

, but wants to hear more from both of them before he votes. I think Lalendra would have been an easy mislynch in LYLO and i'm wondering why she wasn't kept around for it.

Mastina

says that

duppin

was an obvious mason which is the kind of wifom that I find irritating but I don't think it's alignment indicative for her, and votes

Lalendra

.

page 38

Mastina

says that she's scumreading

Lalendra

because the masons are obvmasons and the VTs know who they are. She says she would have killed

duppin

earlier.

I go through

Jeanne

's meta and talk about trust tells some. While it's not literally the case that she only flakes as town and only participates as scum, it is still overwhelmingly true.

Mastina

brushes it aside.

shaddowez

puts

Lalendra

at L-1 and makes an easy case for her.

I make a long wall and also conclude that

Lalendra

is scum. I go through

random

's ISO too and I was townreading all of his posts there and then I wasn't sure on

Mastina

because her

firebringer

push felt easy but then with the way he was acting... and in retrospect the

Lalendra

push felt easy too.

But who else could

townMastina

have pushed if she thought

shaddowez

and

wanderer

were the two last masons and I was a VT who knew who they were. From her claimed point of view there really was no other option but

Lalendra

. From

townShaddowez

' point of view who thought that I and wanderer were masons, he had to decide between mastin and Lalendra and could have pushed either of them.

Still, a lot of

mastina

's pushes feel like gentle little nudges in a way that the town is already moving and reminded me of

bbmolla

whispering in my ear back in June.

We'd been getting paranoid of

shaddowez

because of his silences but we state intent to hammer

Lalendra

.

Bella

and I sync and then we hammer and now it's day 6. Oh hey it's still day 6. ugh. I hate day 6.

Mastina

enters worried that the last mason will vote her. She thought the masons were

duppin

-

shaddowez

-

wanderer

and appears to still think that and is treating me like the last scum, so I guess she was buddying me some.

I post to say that I have things to say but want to hear from

shaddowez

first. I was hoping someone would claim mason.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

page 39

shaddowez

claims to have thought the masons were

duppin

-

mastina

-

rainbow

. Anyway, clearly one of you two is lying about who you thought the masons were and what order you would have shot them in and I'm not going to get anything from than angle I think.

I plead with somebody to please counterclaim me and explain why I was baiting the nightkill in spite of being a mason.

I just...in battlestar galactica I managed to get myself nightkilled 6 days after subbing into a heavily scumread slot. Getting myself nightkilled is like my one talent in mafia. And I couldn't manage it even as a PR this game! It was embarrassing. But oh well. I'm not really embarrassed anymore I'm just tired and want to lolhammer someone so this game can be over. But I'm almost done.

mastina

responds correctly to my post and gives me sympathy for having to be the hammer vote. She explains that she went into the day thinking I was scum and you can tell from her opening post that she did either think that or had decided I was the designated LYLO mislynch.

shaddowez

prodges. I stay absent from the thread until I'm almost in prod range myself to avoid doing the "hey look i'm not hammering" dance because I wanted to give

shaddowez

as much time to counterclaim me as possible.

mastina

starts spamming a bit which is a little reassuring because the mod left the mason PT unlocked today since I'm last mason so I know the last scum has a scum PT to spam in.

She talks about how it kinda sucks that she's a replacement so there's relatively little for her to answer for, which is true, and she hasn't realised yet in 958 that

shaddowez

was a replacement too, though she realises it in the next post. and she doesn't seem to have realised that it's not just her that had a scum predecessor, because

shaddowez

' predecessor was scum, too.

She goes through the votecounts and says she'd be voting herself based on them because of the all town wagon, but I've seen all town wagons before. They're a godsend for scum, really.

960 doesn't really feel genuine to me because she talks about

shaddow

was on the

ari

wagon and she wasn't but doesn't she have an article on the wiki talking about how scum love to bus and love to be seen on scum wagons? Why is she approaching the game from the angle of "I look scummy because I was off

Ari

's wagon" instead of "hey look at

shaddowez

trying to get towncred for being on

Ari

's wagon?" This post worries me

She says she knows 263 was scum distancing but doesn't think it looks like it but doesn't link it so I'm going to go find it. Oh I know I wrote something about that post what was it.

This post looks like distancing to me, especially the part where he says that the best lynches are

duppin

first

shaddowez

later.

lel. It reads kind of like "yeah my buddy's obvscum and he's going down sooner or later but let's get this mislynch in first" to me, you know?

She offers some quotes from

shaddowez

, too.

Her self meta and if I were scum wifom don't really bother me because I know she's just like that.

Her points about

Wingback

now that she's looked at him in more detail are solid, but he did seem to be a competent player, but he was wrong about his reads and should have been left alive to help mislynch people.

Wingback

is an alt but I don't think

mastina

on replacing in would know that or would have been wasting time trying to figure out who, since she only had the one nightphase to look through as much of the game as possible to figure things out. I believe her that killing me makes more sense.

Mastina

, what did you make of my ISO, though? at what point did you read it? Did you think I was a VT because I was so blatant about the mason-softing or just because of associatives between duppin and wanderer and shaddowez? What did you think it meant that I hadn't been counterclaimed?

shaddowez

shows up and doesn't cc either, damn him. He offers some nightkill analysis himself and claims that we'd been scumreading him and I don't remember if we were doing that in public or not, but I think we'd had him comfortably as town since sometime in day 2 or day 3. I disagree (now, with over a month's hindsight) that we would have been a better kill than

Varian

on night 1 after we strongarmed that lynch, and ika probably wouldn't have let you anyway. He says that ika and ari didn't vote random when the random wagon was in lynch range but I think random only got to L-2. Ika would have hammered at L-1 regardless (perhaps even if it was his buddy), and both ari and ika were fairly absent from the thread all game.

mastina

says she wouldn't have nightkilled

wingback

. The day after

wingback

died, she was able to provide reasons why

wingback

might have been killed, but I do think

Wingback

should have been kept around as an extra townbeard, because two townbeards in lylo are better than one, we definitely weren't masons together and whichever of us was the real mason would have voted the other probably.

I show up, glad that people are finally talking. I'd started my read through a day or so before I started posting it, but I wanted to see what you guys would do without my help.

Generally, the most pragmatic kills are on players of high skill, even those who're having an "off" game, because what's to say that all of a sudden they won't flip a switch and suddenly be right on point?

I suppose you didn't know, but all of the games I was playing in August were off games. Especially the ones I was having to post in while I was V/LA (the rainbow unicat ones), but even my two scumgames were off in August, the one that I was soloing because it was newbie game I was ICing and the one where I stopped backseat driving my hydra before I was ready. It's October now and I've recovered but there's basically been no sign that I know how to play mafia at all since early August until a week or two ago.

I know you mostly remember me from May-June and maybe you were paying attention to Battlestar Galactica after you died but BG was basically the last game where I played particularly well. After that I went through a VI phase sitewide, just when people were starting to burden of proficiency me for games like WDPT and BG. I'm coming out the other side I think.

for not being able to make a stronger case for me being town

self towncases are scummy, though. This one time in LYLO I wrote this giant self towncase. I spent a third of the day phase working on it instead of, you know, trying to figure out who the last scum was. Both my buddies bussed me over the post but we ended up mislynching town that day anyway. I reposted it in the scumposting thread in mishmash if you're interested. It's on page 3. It's hilarious because all of the stuff I cite in my self towncase aren't actually towntells. The first two paragraphs could be summarised as "I participated in RVS".

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Ok, i've caught up with myself. So basically until Lalendra's lynch, I'm leaning towards shaddow, and then I start getting paranoid of mastina without really feeling better about shaddowez but there's a few more things to look at.

Okay, so I'm not Titus but I know how to colour things in. I think that if there are two leading wagons on town then scum should either be pushing both of them hard or sitting back and watching. In this game, I'd expect more sitting back and watching just because of activity levels and lack of daytalk. It is really hard to get two town wagons going strong when your buddy is prodging as much as ika and ari were proding, I tried it in n1628 and town built a counterwagon on my buddy and then instead of responding to the actual situation he tried to go ahead with the two town wagons plan by chainsaw defending me for no reason when I wasn't in danger ugh. The point is that I'd expect in the case of 2 town wagons that scum will just be watching from the wings. And I also think that scum with situational awareness will be early on their buddy's wagon.

Spoiler: coloured vca

Vote Count 1.01

Vedith

[5] -

ika

,

duppin

, shaddowez,

Rainbow Unicat

, mastin2

[L-2]

duppin

[2] -

Wingback

,

Vedith

Rainbow Unicat

[1] -

Aristophanes

Aristophanes

[1] -

Lalendra

Heartless

[1] -

Firebringer

Firebringer

[1] -

Heartless

Not Voting

[2] -

Wanderer-nl

,

Varian-

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes on someone to lynch them.
Day 1 will end on August 17, or in (expired on 2015-08-17 10:00:00)

Vote Count 1.02

Vedith

[4] -

ika

, shaddowez,

Varian-

,

Firebringer

duppin

[2] -

Wingback

,

Vedith

Rainbow Unicat

[2] -

Aristophanes

,

Heartless

mastin2

[1] -

Lalendra

Firebringer

[1] -

Rainbow Unicat

Lalendra

[1] - mastin2

Not Voting

[2] -

duppin

,

Wanderer-nl

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes on someone to lynch them.
Day 1 will end on August 17, or in (expired on 2015-08-17 10:00:00)

Vote Count 1.03

Vedith

[3] -

ika

,

Varian-

,

Firebringer

duppin

[3] -

Wingback

,

Vedith

,

Heartless

Rainbow Unicat

[1] -

Aristophanes

*

mastin2

[1] -

Lalendra

Firebringer

[1] -

Rainbow Unicat

Lalendra

[1] - mastin2

Not Voting

[3] -

duppin

, shaddowez,

Wanderer-nl

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes on someone to lynch them.
Day 1 will end on August 17, or in (expired on 2015-08-17 10:00:00)

*Looking for

Aristophanes

's replacement.

Vote Count 1.04

duppin

[4] -

Wingback

,

Vedith

,

Heartless

,

Aristophanes

mastin2

[3] -

Lalendra

,

Varian-

,

Wanderer-nl

Firebringer

[2] -

Rainbow Unicat

, shaddowez

Lalendra

[1] - mastin2

Vedith

[1] -

ika

Not Voting

[2] -

duppin

,

Firebringer

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes on someone to lynch them.
Day 1 will end on August 17, or in (expired on 2015-08-17 10:00:00)

Vote Count 1.05

mastin2

[5] -

Lalendra

,

Varian-

,

Wanderer-nl

,

Firebringer

,

Rainbow Unicat

[L-2]

duppin

[4] -

Wingback

,

Vedith

,

Heartless

,

Aristophanes

Vedith

[2] -

ika

, mastin2

Firebringer

[1] - shaddowez

Not Voting

[1] -

duppin

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes on someone to lynch them.
Day 1 will end on August 17, or in (expired on 2015-08-17 10:00:00)

Vote Count 1.06

mastin2

[3] -

Lalendra

,

Varian-

,

Firebringer

duppin

[3] -

Wingback

,

Vedith

,

Aristophanes

Vedith

[1] -

ika

shaddowez

[1] -

Heartless

Heartless

[1] - mastin2

Not Voting

[4] -

duppin

,

Wanderer-nl

,

Rainbow Unicat

, shaddowez

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes on someone to lynch them.
Day 1 will end on August 17, or in (expired on 2015-08-17 10:00:00)

Vote Count 1.07

Vedith

[4] -

ika

,

Rainbow Unicat

,

Wanderer-nl

, mastin2

mastin2

[3] -

Lalendra

,

Varian-

,

Firebringer

duppin

[3] -

Wingback

,

Vedith

,

Aristophanes

shaddowez

[1] -

Heartless

Not Voting

[2] -

duppin

, shaddowez

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes on someone to lynch them.
Day 1 will end on August 17, or in (expired on 2015-08-17 10:00:00)

Vote Count 1.08

Vedith

[3] -

ika

,

Rainbow Unicat

, mastin2

mastin2

[3] -

Lalendra

,

Varian-

, shaddowez

shaddowez

[2] -

Heartless

,

Wanderer-nl

Rainbow Unicat

[2] -

Wingback

,

Firebringer

duppin

[1] -

Aristophanes

Not Voting

[2] -

duppin

,

Vedith

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes on someone to lynch them.
Day 1 will end on August 17, or in (expired on 2015-08-17 10:00:00)

Vote Count 1.09

Vedith

[6] -

ika

,

Rainbow Unicat

, mastin2,

duppin

,

Heartless

,

Firebringer

[L-1]

mastin2

[3] -

Lalendra

,

Varian-

, shaddowez

shaddowez

[1] -

Wanderer-nl

Rainbow Unicat

[2] -

Wingback

,

Vedith

duppin

[1] -

Aristophanes

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes on someone to lynch them.
Day 1 will end on August 17, or in (expired on 2015-08-17 10:00:00)

Vote Count 1.Final

Vedith

[7] -

ika

,

Rainbow Unicat

, mastin2,

duppin

,

Heartless

,

Firebringer

,

Varian-

[LYNCH]

mastin2

[2] -

Lalendra

, shaddowez

shaddowez

[2] -

Wanderer-nl

,

Wingback

Rainbow Unicat

[1] -

Vedith

duppin

[1] -

Aristophanes

Vedith

has been lynched! He was a

Vanilla Townie

!

It is now Night 1.
Night 1 will end at 9:00 PM PST, on Tuesday, August 18, or in (expired on 2015-08-18 21:00:00)

Vote Count 2.01

duppin

[2] - shaddowez,

Heartless

Rainbow Unicat

[1] -

Firebringer

Not Voting

[8] -

ika

,

Wingback

,

Rainbow Unicat

, mastin2,

duppin

,

Aristophanes

,

Lalendra

,

Wanderer-nl

With 11 players alive, it takes 6 votes on someone to lynch them.
Day 1 will end on September 2 at 11:00 PM PST, or in (expired on 2015-09-02 23:00:00)

Vote Count 2.02

duppin

[2] - shaddowez,

Heartless

Rainbow Unicat

[2] -

Firebringer

,

Wingback

shaddowez

[1] -

Rainbow Unicat

Heartless

[1] -

duppin

Not Voting

[5] -

ika

, mastin2,

Aristophanes

,

Lalendra

,

Wanderer-nl

With 11 players alive, it takes 6 votes on someone to lynch them.
Day 1 will end on September 2 at 11:00 PM PST, or in (expired on 2015-09-02 23:00:00)

EDIT: fixed an error

Vote Count 2.03

duppin

[4] - shaddowez,

Heartless

, mastin2,

Aristophanes

[L-2]

Rainbow Unicat

[2] -

Firebringer

,

Wingback

shaddowez

[1] -

Rainbow Unicat

Heartless

[1] -

duppin

Not Voting

[3] -

ika

,

Lalendra

,

Wanderer-nl

With 11 players alive, it takes 6 votes on someone to lynch them.
Day 1 will end on September 2 at 11:00 PM PST, or in (expired on 2015-09-02 23:00:00)

edit: fixed a spelling error

Vote Count 2.04

duppin

[2] - mastin2,

Aristophanes

Rainbow Unicat

[2] -

Firebringer

,

Wingback

Aristophanes

[2] -

Heartless

, shaddowez

shaddowez

[1] -

Rainbow Unicat

Heartless

[1] -

duppin

Not Voting

[3] -

ika

,

Lalendra

,

Wanderer-nl

With 11 players alive, it takes 6 votes on someone to lynch them.
Day 1 will end on September 2 at 11:00 PM PST, or in (expired on 2015-09-02 23:00:00)

Ask and you shall receive.

Vote Count 2.05

Aristophanes

[4] -

Heartless

, shaddowez,

Wingback

,

Firebringer

[L-2]

duppin

[2] - mastin2,

Aristophanes

shaddowez

[1] -

Rainbow Unicat

Heartless

[1] -

duppin

Not Voting

[3] -

ika

,

Lalendra

,

Wanderer-nl

With 11 players alive, it takes 6 votes on someone to lynch them.
Day 2 will end on September 2 at 11:00 PM PST, or in (expired on 2015-09-02 23:00:00)

Edit: Fixed a double vote

Vote Count 2.06

Aristophanes

[4] -

Heartless

, shaddowez,

Wingback

,

Firebringer

[L-2]

duppin

[2] - mastin2,

Aristophanes

Heartless

[1] -

duppin

Not Voting

[4] -

ika

,

Lalendra

,

Wanderer-nl

,

Rainbow Unicat

With 11 players alive, it takes 6 votes on someone to lynch them.
Day 2 will end on September 4 at 11:00 PM PST, or in (expired on 2015-09-04 23:00:00)

Deadline is being extended 48 hours, and depending on how long it takes for me to get a replacement for mastin2, may be delayed further.

Vote Count 2.07

ika

[3] -

Heartless

,

Firebringer

,

Rainbow Unicat

Aristophanes

[2] - shaddowez,

Wingback

duppin

[2] - mastin2,

Aristophanes

Heartless

[1] -

duppin

Not Voting

[3] -

ika

,

Lalendra

,

Wanderer-nl

With 11 players alive, it takes 6 votes on someone to lynch them.
Day 2 will end on September 7 at 11:00 PM PST, or in (expired on 2015-09-07 23:00:00)

Deadline is being extended another 72 hours. Replacement hunting is fuunnnnnnnnnnnn

Vote Count 2.Final

Aristophanes

[6] - shaddowez,

Wingback

,

Firebringer

,

Wanderer-nl

,

Rainbow Unicat

,

Heartless

[LYNCH]

duppin

[2] - mastin2,

Aristophanes

Heartless

[1] -

duppin

Not Voting

[2] -

ika

,

Lalendra

Aristophanes

has been lynched! He was a

Mafia Goon

!

It is now Night 2.
Night 2 will end at 2:00 PM PST, on Sunday, September 6, or in (expired on 2015-09-06 14:00:00)
UNLESS I haven't found a mastin2 replacement by then. If that doesn't happened in 48 hours, the night will be extended until I get a replacement.

mastin2 has replaced mastin2 (thank you!)

Vote Count 3.01

ika

[3] -

Rainbow Unicat

,

Lalendra

,

duppin

[L-2]

Lalendra

[1] -

Firebringer

Not Voting

[5] -

ika

,

Wanderer-nl

,

Wingback

, mastin2, shaddowez

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes on someone to lynch them.
Day 3 will end on September 21 at 9:00 PM PST, or in (expired on 2015-09-21 21:00:00)

Vote Count 3.Final

ika

[5] -

Rainbow Unicat

,

Lalendra

,

duppin

,

Wingback

,

Firebringer

[LYNCH]

Not Voting

[4] -

ika

,

Wanderer-nl

, mastin2, shaddowez

ika

has been lynched! He was a

Mafia Goon

!

It is now Night 3.

Night 3 will end at 8:00 PM PST, on Wednesday, September 23, or in (expired on 2015-09-23 20:00:00)

Vote Count 4.01

Lalendra

[1] - shaddowez

Not Voting

[6] -

Wanderer-nl

,

Firebringer

,

Rainbow Unicat

, mastin2,

duppin

,

Lalendra

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 votes on someone to lynch them.
Day 4 will end on September 25 at 8:00 PM PST, or in (expired on 2015-09-25 20:00:00)

Vote Count 4.02

Lalendra

[1] - shaddowez

mastin2

[1] -

Firebringer

Firebringer

[1] -

duppin

Not Voting

[4] -

Wanderer-nl

,

Rainbow Unicat

, mastin2,

Lalendra

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 votes on someone to lynch them.
Day 4 will end on September 25 at 8:00 PM PST, or in (expired on 2015-09-25 20:00:00)

Vote Count 4.Final

Firebringer

[4] -

duppin

, mastin2,

Rainbow Unicat

,

Wanderer-nl

[LYNCH]

Lalendra

[1] - shaddowez

mastin2

[1] -

Firebringer

Not Voting

[1] -

Lalendra

Firebringer

has been lynched! He was a

Vanilla Townie

!

It is now Night 4
Night 4 will end at 5:00 PM PST, on Thursday, September 17, or in (expired on 2015-09-17 17:00:00)

Vote Count 5.01

mastin2

[1] -

Lalendra

[L-2]

Lalendra

[1] - mastin2

[L-2]

Not Voting

[3] -

Wanderer-nl

,

Rainbow Unicat

, shaddowez

With 5 players alive, it takes 3 votes on someone to lynch them.
Day 5 will end on October 1 at 6:30 PM PST, or in (expired on 2015-10-01 18:30:00)

Vote Count 5.Final

Lalendra

[3] - mastin2, shaddowez,

Rainbow Unicat

[LYNCH]

mastin2

[1] -

Lalendra

Not Voting

[1] -

Wanderer-nl

Lalendra

has been lynched! She was a

Vanilla Townie

!

It is now Night 5
Night 5 will end at 4:00 PM PST, on Wednesday, September 23, or in (expired on 2015-09-23 16:00:00)

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

mastina/random

aristophanes/persivul

=107 | ✝
barely interacts with ari/persivul, but interacts quite a bit more with ika.

duppin/thecow

v14 | v555 | R | +879 ✝
nonexistent reads progression on duppin

firebringer

=274 | | R | =822 -v878 -879 -882 -883 -885 -890 ✝
mastina tunnels fire on fire's last day in response to mason fishing.

heartless

-v274 =317 | =600 ✝
never really interacts with heartless all that much beyond that one vote.

ika

v7 u14 +94 -151 =355 | =544 | R ✝
rvs votes ika, unvotes quickly, townreads him early then a few neutral interactions

lalendra/simple hope

=57 -95 v100 =?112 -151 =184 =186 | | R | =857 ==879 | -v924 -925 -934 -940 ✝
pushes lalendra/simple hope for a while. mastina's null on lalendra after her replace in but goes after her after fire's dead.

rainbow

=7 =8 =23 +94 =112 =151 -203 =205 =245 +331 | v541 -544 =565 =627 | R | =821 =822 =823 =825 +828 =856 =857 =862 =863 =865 +879 | +924 =928 =929 =940 | -948 +952 +969 =971 +974 +975 +993 =1006
random didn't know what to make of us for a while, sometimes townreading us, othertimes pushing us, but i think that's understandable given the gamestate. they weren't paying all that much attention in later stages before their replaceout; their vote on us was a sheep. Mastina's interacted with us quite a bit since replacing in but that's because we know each other. I expect people to interact more with people they know.

shaddowez/donottrustme

+266 =355 | | R | +879 | +924 | +948 -v952 -958 =959 =960 -961 =962 -963 -964 -966 -967 -969 -971
Townreads shaddowez until he doesn't CC me in LYLO.

varian

=47 +94 =245 ✝
townreads varian

vedith

v35 =100 =112 v238 v317 -331 ✝
scumread vedith

wanderer

=44 =47 =61 =107 =207 =317 | =565 =627 | R | =856 +879 | +924 =925 =934 =936 ✝
lots of neutral interactions with wanderer, townreads her consistently after replacing in

wingback

| =627 | R ✝
underinteracted with wingback but wingback replaced a lurker around the time random was flaking

This is up to date as of this post, but most of the LYLO is not indicative of anything because of course she's townreading the uncounterclaimed mason who hasn't quickhammered and scumreading the other person. it's more important what happened before.

will do shaddowez next.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Shaddowez/DoNotTrustMe

aristophanes/persivul

R =412 | =631 -647 v648 -709 -755 -768 ✝
interacts about equally with aristoika. ignores them early, cautious wait and see approach, turns on them at the right time

duppin/thecow

=262 | R v428 -433 -563 =589 -631 -709 -717 -755 | -788

-796

| -==

818

=860 ✝
Bolded 796 because it feels like he's trying to feel out whether duppin or lalendra will be a better wagon that day (this is the day that firebringer gets wagonned but before that wagon starts up), and 818 looks like he's figured out duppin's a mason.

firebringer

=123 v188 =191 u262 R -v326 -328 -338 | =589 -631 | -?=784 | -860 -876 ✝
pushes fire on and off throughout most of the game

heartless

R +326 | +563 =589 =647 =755 ✝
townread them, then some neutral interactions. Heartless seemed to notice how shaddowez was linking aristophanes and duppin and I wonder if part of why they were killed was to keep them from talking about it (in addition to the mason "crumb")

ika

R -==326 =343 | -563 | ✝
interacts about equally with aristoika

lalendra

R -796 =799 | -v818 -860 | -920 -v941 ✝
ignores lalendra's slow for most of the game but it was mostly an empty slot for most of the game, then consistently negative

mastina/randomidget

-262 R -==326 -v343 | =589 | | | +920 | -950 -v968 =986 =990 -991
read progression exists a bit with mastina, was negative on her for a while, then ignored her for 3 day phases, then townread her and now it's lylo.

rainbow unicat

+201 R -=345 -=411 +412 | =563 =589 +631 | | +818 | | +950 +968 =986 =990
pushed on my slot some early on but has consistently townread me since 412. this looks like a big jump since they were scumreading me in 411 BUT they read our ISO in between those two posts so that's a false alarm.

varian-

+201 R =412 ✝
townread varian

vedith

v33 -54 u123 =191 =201 +262 =290 R +==326 =338 =343 +411 =412 ✝
townread vedith and tried to fight the wagon

wanderer

R -343 =411 | =433 =589 -631 =647 | | +818 | ✝
pushed wanderer a little in beginning and the middle then townread her towards the end

wingback/montosh

R -328 +345 -411 | =433 -631 | ✝
was back and forth on wingback a lot

interactions with aristoika worry me. his reads progression on the town slots exists.

want to talk about Aristoika too.

[Rainbow Unicat]

IKA

aristophanes/persivul

| -635 -637 -690 -698 |
I don't profess to know how ika usually interacts with his buddies, but he completely ignored pers/ari until the very end when we were wagonning him and then all of a sudden he wanted the hammer vote.

duppin/thecow

+122 | +?450 =453 =575 |
mostly ignored duppin/thecow, townread them.

firebringer

==70 =74 =98 -162 -240 | =440 -450 -453 =455 =459 -469 -?543 -?561 =640 +754 | =789
pushed on firebringer a bit but it was more of a disagreement than a trying to get him lynched, and especially at the end it seems he was townreading him.

heartless

=26 =63 +66 +70 +74 +91 =117 =120 =122 =142 =143 =159 =168 =199 =224 | =444 =446 =455 =457 =459 =461 =465 +469 +510 +551 =569 =572 =635 =637 =675 =677 =693 +754 ✝
chitchatted with his friend anti a lot

lalendra/simple hope

-122 | =575 =767 |
mostly ignored lalendra/simple hope aside from an early push

rainbow unicat

=49 +63 +66 +70 +74 =81 +91 =98 =120 =133 =142 =143 +144 +159 =160 +162 =240 | +440 +450 +469 +510 =514 +543 +551 +561 +569 =609 =690 =693 +754 =765 |
chitchatted with bella and I a lot

mastina/randomidget

| +?-?450 -?543 |
mostly ignored both of you damnit

shaddowez/donottrustme

| +450 =575 |
mostly ignored both of you damnit

varian

✝
didn't interact with varian at all

vedith

v16 -66 -69 ✝
pushed vedith a tiny bit in rvs, never left the wagon

wanderer

=98 =168 =214 =218 | -?450 =459 -==469 =575 =623 =675 =677 =698 |
chitchatted with wanderer a bit too

wingback/montosh

=168 =212 | +450 |
mostly ignored wingback/montosh except to townread them towards the end

not getting much out of ika, though vaguely curiously if his iso would have looked identical to this even if one of his friends was his buddy. my guess is that he would have chitchatted with them but their responds would have been strained.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Aristophanes/Persivul

duppin/thecow

R -v192 -196 -222 -263 | =470 -v577 -729
pushes duppin the whole game

firebringer

=125 =127 =131 R ==192 =196 | =729
neutral on firebringer all game

heartless

R ==192 =222 =291 | =470 =577 =729
neutral on heartless all game

ika

+136 R +192 | -?=470
townreads ika (ari is more noncommital with his townread, saying it's a good sign that ika is posting, then is negative towards the end)

rainbow unicat

v11 -+108 =131 R u173 =180 +192 | +470 -577 +729
pushes us a little early on then mostly townreads us except for 577 where he attacks our night kill analysis.

mastina/randomidget

=103 -+=106 +=113 R +192 +263 =291 | =729
pushes random a little early on then townreads her

shaddowez/donottrustme

R ==-192 -263 | =729
expects there to be scum in the lurkers in 192 (including donot), attacks donot some more in 263, then ignores them until 729.

lalendra/simple hope

R ==+192 |
townleans

vedith

+-+102 +?=104 =108 R =196 |
is conflicted on vedith

varian-

=104 R |
one neutral interaction with him

wanderer

R =222 | +470 =729
townreads but otherwise doesn't interact

wingback

R | =577 =729
a couple neutral interactions

Aristophanes replaced Persivul fairly early on, in post 172, which was on page 7, which means there are only 13 persivul posts to go on which is kinda shitty, but Persivul didn't interact with donot at all and interacted with random quite a bit more (3 posts). I've played with him before and read some of his previous games and he tends to underinteract with his buddies. He offers an early townread on ika.

shaddowez better fits the profile for a persbuddy. aristo ties himself to both of them.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

I'm done but I'm not going to hammer until either both of you and my hydra partner ~do something~ other than prodge, or it's my bedtime and I won't be awake when the deadline hits.

So the deadline is: (expired on 2015-10-07 18:30:00)

The absolute latest that I'm going to bed: (expired on 2015-10-08 01:00:00)

But I'll probably hammer before: (expired on 2015-10-07 20:00:00)

All three of your V/LAs end well before then so you have time!

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

oh yeah I was going to read those games of shaddowez in more detail. I skimmed them earlier. I skipped the SK one because SKs don't really act like group scum. In the newbie game you didn't interact with your buddy very much at all, his name showed up your ISO an order of magnitude less than the usernames of town aligned players. You had more interactions with Thor in the open game you played, but most of those were initiated by him. The day Thor was killed, you were early on the wagon, but you didn't vote him at all before that point. But because I was skiiming ISO and not in context I missed the why of the thor wagon and whether it was inevitable or not.

Basically, though, it seems that you don't like to bus but when you do, you make it count and you get on early.

But I'll skim them in order tomorrow I think. It's bedtime soon.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

oh wait there was this other thing.

How To Read Mastin

:

Are you zMuffinman?

Yes-->Screw tells, you know mastin's alignment instantly.

No

-->

Are you AngryPidgeon?

Yes-->Screw tells, you know mastin's alignment instantly.

No

-->

Are you a player who has hydraed or has otherwise worked well with Mastin?

Yes-->You likely don't need the chart, but because you're not that familiar with her, you should probably go through it anyway as a precaution.

No

-->You REALLY need to go through the chart; proceed! But fair warning in advance that it's only about 90% accurate.

Is/Are zMuffinman/AP in the game?

Yes-->Sheep them on their read! Never doubt it.

No

-->Think like them and continue on.

THE FLOWCHART:

Is it D1?
Yes-->...And you're suspicious of Mastin?!?
She's town.
No-->Is it D2? Yes-->She's prob-town.
No-->Is it D3 or later?

Yes

-->Proceed.

Does Mastin look town?

No-->She's town.

Yes

-->Proceed to next step.

Trust her as town.

What does she do?

Get paranoid of you-->She's town.

Enthusiastically work with you

-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.

Nothing

-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Milk your townread and bully you-->Proceed.

Suddenly pressure her.

What does she do?

Freak out-->She's town.
Show concern, but subdued-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.

Brush it off-

->Proceed.

Is she posting up a storm?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.

No

-->Proceed.

Is she gloating how good her scumgame is?

Yes

-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Does Mastin have delusions of grandeur?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.

No

-->Proceed.

Is she waffling...
...A lot?

Yes-->She's town.
Sorta?-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.

No

-->Proceed.

Does she look like she's trying to leave a legacy?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.

No

-->Proceed.

Is she antagonizing everyone?

Yes-->She's town.

No

-->Proceed.

Has Mastin rambled at all on MD theory?

Yes

-->She's town.
No-->Proceed.

Is Mastin making a case for why she could be scum?

Yes

-->She's town.
Kinda?-->Prob-town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is Mastin making very strong reasons why she's town?

No

-->She's town.
Kinda-->Prob-town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Yes-->Proceed.

If applicable, did she 'crumb her role and/or claim it openly and immediately?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.

No

-->Proceed.

Do the circumstances behind her play and/or claim look town?

Yes

-->She's town.
Maybe-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she irrational?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.

No

-->Proceed.

Is she spewing random illogical theories?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.

No

-->Proceed.

Does her posting look intentional?

No

-->She's town.
Yes-->Proceed.

Is she spontaneous, random, and/or whimsical?

Yes

-->She's town.
Maybe?-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is her tone flat?

No-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.

Yes

-->Proceed.

(BONUS:

If Mastin is behind, does she demonstrate knowledge of the

current

gamestate she could not reasonably have at her supposed point of reference?

No

-->She's town.

It's hard to say...

-->She probably does know, but not much, having likely skimmed offline, not logged in, and chose not to get the full context to spoiler her as probable-town.
Yes-->Proceed.)

And finally...

Is there minimal resistance to lynching her?

Yes-->She's town; defend her!
...Maybe?-->You've gotten this far and the best you've got is a "maybe"?!? You dummy, run through it again! (But she's probably town anyway.)-->All other factors equal, if you're having this much trouble reading Mastin, just freakin' assume she's town. (She likely is, anyway.)-->FOR THE LOVE OF GODS, SHE'S TOWN, DANG IT.
No-->She's probably scum...but you should run through the flowchart one more time just to be sure, as a precaution.

Is Mastin's posting wildly inconsistent?
Yes-->She's town.
Maybe?-->Probably town, but proceed anyway.

No

-->Proceed.)

(Oh, and I think rambling in-thread's already there*, but if not, it should be.)
*Relies on scum having daychat. Scum have daychat, in-thread rambling = decent towntell. Scum don't have daychat, rambling = prob-null, maybe slight townlean. Scum daychat ambiguous, assume slight townlean.

(Oh, should be noted. Last scum, rambling in-thread gets upgraded to major towntell, since scuMastin typically keeps rambles to the scum QT about why she's screwed.)

(I'm deliberately withholding my conclusion on this for now but i'll put it in the hydra pt)

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

I'm going to be skipping most of the stuff temporarily. I swear I'll answer it all eventually, it's just that there's a few things running through my mind that I want to write down before I re-forget them and they are relevant to some of the things you've been saying.

it's fine. i'm glad you're posting.

To be honest, the main reason I voted Firebringer is because Firebringer gave away not being a mason and also not knowing the masons, and I took from context of people like you that the scum didn't know who the masons were, thus, Firebringer fit the profile of a scum player.

yeah, that was a lot of why i voted him, myself. I think it may have been a mistake on my part approaching the game so much from a who seems to know what standpoint, but it made sense at the time.

I said before that a daystart PM would've been nice. I received no notification on any day phase that the day phase had begun. I tried to cover this up, though, because I knew this was a not-mason slip: masons would have their topic closed, disallowing them from conversing and serving as a reminder day had started.

interesting. I don't think I would have picked up on that; too subtle for me. I rely more on my egosearch and my bookmarks than anything so I usually notice a thread is open before I notice that I've got a daystart PM. But yeah, since we only had nighttalk, we were pretty aware of how much time we had left to talk about things, and the mod did post to say that the thread was being locked or unlocked.

I was hoping. Praying. That there'd be a battle of mason claims, because then there'd be an easy job for me: pick the real mason. It wouldn't be hard to find. But I knew that was incredibly unlikely.

you thought it was shaddowez though. but i could have pointed to plenty of stuff like how none of us ever voted each other not even in rvs and how whenever wanderer made a towncase for one lacklustre buddy she made a towncase for the other at the same time. wanderer was good at matching the strength of her reads on us to the temperature of the thread, but she always had us together. and there was always duppin resisting the rainbow train whenever we got wagonned and me doing the same in reverse, both of us just not feeling each other's trains even when we agreed the other looked scummy. i could have pointed to that, too. maybe it would have been enough.

or if you had managed to pull some sort of master scum game where you deliberately nightkilled weird nightkill choices for some sort of reason

Fucking up my night kill is my thing, though:

• Inexplicably leaving BBT alive in LYLO when he would have caught me if he hadn't been overgamed
  
• Not realising that I only had a one shot kill so spending it on night1 instead of saving it for LYLO (but I managed to successfully crosskill using really convoluted logic that I'm kinda proud of and I was crosskilled that night anyway so it didn't matter that i'd wasted my only kill.)
  
• The time i took my two top townreads who were townreading each other into lylo and pretended to be mislynch bait and then they lynched me.
  
• The time we didn't nightkill Tammy night 1 because she always gets nightkilled early and we felt sorry for her, and then we nightkilled a newb we could have mislynched because i fucked up, and then N3 our nightkill was blocked, and by then Tammy had tracked us all to dead bodies so we lost.

I should make my own checklist.

Does the nightkill make any sense at all?
Yes --> Plot's town
Only in light of the nightkill's flip --> Plot's probably scum but proceed anyway
No --> Proceed

but regardless of which it was, the simple fact is, I fully expected the outcome to be two masons, in their topic, both saying that they suspect me, and that regardless of which of them died, that they would be voting me come daybreak.

well, sort of. but there's thing where you re-examine your reads if you're still alive in 3p lylo. and, again, we weren't expecting rainbow to be the last mason alive.

Brief glimpses and flashes into your posting give me hope, that maybe, just maybe, you're actually going to vote for shaddowez, but then you continue on with your posting and dash my hopes by immediately pointing out the opposite only stronger suspicion you hold on me.

I'm sorry. I know what that's like. I'm not trying to do to you what you did to me. You're wrong about the direction we're leaning, though.

whereas with Shaddow it's good play for the entirety of the game,

his predecessor is worse than yours.

Even if you're more subjective than Titus (I don't have enough experience with you to know), you're still pretty objective and hold her the ultimate logical player in high regards.

I respect her and look up to her, and I'm probably one of the few people who say "I'm not Titus but" and mean it as a compliment to Titus, but I don't think she's perfect or have her on the pedestal I had her on when I was a newbie with 1 completed game who had read Uncouth.

I respect her endgame and I'm looking forward to hydraing with her sometime in the next couple months. I know that there are things she's good at and things she's not good at. In Refraction, she fakeclaimed doc with a wagon on her and I counterclaimed her (I was a bodyguard, but I didn't full claim, just said that our roles couldn't co-exist and that I was CCing) and she was lynched. She was a VT.

There are a lot of players I look up to. I look up to you too, you know. I don't think you're perfect, and I don't think anybody is, but I like you and like playing with you.

I suppose my playstyle must seem cold and objective from the outside looking in because of all the numbers and symbols and maths and patterns, but that's not how I experience it internally, it's just the only way I know how to translate what I'm thinking, and the numbers and patterns are a shorthand for myself to help me ground myself in the game and find my footing and figure out whether someone's trajectory makes sense given the game state.

It's also a way to slow me down because with the hyperlexia I tend towards skimming and if I don't make myself stop and read every sentence and figure out what that sentence means and what it's doing to the game state and how it's trying to pull the game in one direction or another, then I read it too quickly and I don't notice. The numbers thing is my way of slowing myself down so that I can notice what people are trying to do.

I spent 16 hours reading your ISO in WDPT during night 6. You were my top scumread and I came out of it with you (well, Voided, really) as my top townread because I'd slowed down enough to see the game from your eyes, managed to get into your head and see all the trying to figure things out and all the trying to work together with townreads and I can't explain what it was like or really point to anything but that mass of numbers and say "town" but it's not not town because there were this many + and that many - or anything overly simplistic like that.

The numbers thing is my way of putting myself in somebody else's shoes, something that is a lot harder for me than for most people, trying to empathise and understand how they're seeing the game and where they're coming from and why they're doing the things they're doing.

But how I really experience the game, and what I'm doing when I reread a game thread and post a bunch of walls that look like IIoA... and boy am I glad that I'm conftown right now because nobody ever townreads me for talking about how I actually experience the game because it sounds like cryptic gibberish, but here goes.

The game is like a tangled mass of coloured threads, and everybody has their own colour thread which is often based on their avatar colour but sometimes not and if I can't figure out why somebody has the colour they do then that's a sign I need to pay more attention to their slot because in Refraction, Shinobi and Chthulu Dreaming were the same colour even though one of them had a green avatar and the other had a purple avatar. They were both scum.

On day 1, the colours don't really mean much, a green thread doesn't mean town and a red thread doesn't mean scum, it's just completely arbitrary. And there's this tangled mass of threads that are all pulling the game in different directions. The town threads are more chaotic and they start out each pulling things in sort of random directions and the scum threads are more deliberate in which way they're pulling the tangle BUT on day 1 they blend in fairly well and it's usually hard to sort them (unless something in my repertoire of scumtells shows up but that's secondary and the only tells I'm really confident in are the ones I use for sorting newbies especially if they're new to mafia in general not just to the site).

But when it's LYLO or almost LYLO and I'm looking back on a game, it's different. I know the alignment of 11 players in this game and now it is a mass of green threads pulling the game in various directions and two red threads ... well in this game mostly lurking until they get lynched .... but two red threads either letting the game be pulled in that direction or gently pulling it in different directions. And then there's your yellow thread and shaddowez' grey thread and I'm looking at how those threads are weaving themselves into the tapestry of the game, are they winding themselves around other threads and tying little knots or what.

It's not an objective thing. It's...going back to string and yarn, I do crochet with thread and it gets tangled sometimes and I put all ten fingers in the thread and I jiggle my fingers and make motions like a little kid fingerpainting and it looks chaotic, but it does part of the untangling work. And then for parts of it I have to slow way down and pick at the knots little by little. And sometimes I have to pull just one part of the thread. That's how town affects the game.

And if I were trying to tangle it on purpose, I'd probably do that finger jiggling thing but I'd do it differently, instead of shaking hands one way I'd swirl them some, and then sometimes I'd pull a different part of the thread, a part that makes the knots tighter instead of pulling out a slip knot. And then sometimes I'd have to slow way down and think about what would make it harder to untie and do that. That's how scum affects the game.

I don't even think in language, it's all swirling colour shapes and three dimensional patterns and I try to translate it into the thread to show other people what I'm thinking but nobody ever townreads me for talking like this so I've learned not to talk like this because it sounds crazy and people discredit me when I do it and babbling incoherently about colourshapes isn't a good way to get people to lynch the people I think are scum because it's incoherent. I talk in objectives because objectives make sense to people. But I'm conftown and I'm not trying to persuade either of you to do anything but continue to engage with me so I can do what I want.

Is it D1?

Btw, we both know this, but kinda hard to use this point against me when I wasn't in the game until D4.

Of course. It wasn't a point against you.

When was I suddenly pressured? I never felt pressure.

I mean, I suppose you could technically call my situation now in lylo being pressured, but my response isn't to brush it off--it's been more along the lines of resignation.

I think the biggest problem with the checklist is that I don't understand how you define all of the terms in the checklist. You saw that in WDPT, too. But I'm aware of that and am taking it into account. Basically for this question, I hadn't pressured you in a sudden "is mastina scum" way; I took the "townread her too early" approach instead (I was genuine about not wanting to pursue you right then, but I wasn't as confident in you being town as I was letting on; it was partially a test.) What I was counting as pressure for this question was when I pointed out Jeanne11's trust tell thing and you brushed me off because I was disagreeing with you and that's pressure of a sort. BUT I wasn't counting this question against you, I had it under "doesn't really apply to this game".

This one's my fault, though, because I was afraid of posting too much and revealing my hand.

And now it's LYLO and you've been V/LA and you've been posting up a storm

when you've been here

but you haven't been here

all that much

BUT V/LA is null and shaddowez and Bella are also V/LA. The V/LAs from both your slots are irritating because it makes it harder to sort you both but it's not scummy.

Not that having an extra point in my favor isn't a good thing, but...where have I gloated about how good my scumgame was? I don't actually recall doing this. I've said as scum I wouldn't be incompetent enough to have missed duppin, I suppose, but that's not nearly the level of bragging I normally do about my scumgame.

Well, I mostly did it for you but you agreed with it. There's also when you said that whoever the last scum is, they're playing a very good game, which I could see you saying cheekily about yourself if you were scum.

And you've been talking about how if you were scum you wouldn't be in the situation you're in? I guess?

Technically speaking, my thinking the game was over with Firebringer was a delusion of grandeur, and that's kinda sorta supported by me posting things like it being a game of POE, that Firebringer makes the most sense as final scum, and whatnot, but I suppose there's not really enough to prove this.

see, I don't really know what delusions of grandeur means when you say it, but like I too also thought it was mostly POE by then, so it didn't feel like a delusion since I was sharing it. And I remember in WDPT when you had the plan that we just trust each other and no lynch and it would have worked and I didn't even understand why it would have worked until a while after the game was over.

I think my trouble with questions like this is that I tend to see you as deluded, because often I feel like we're kind of on the same wavelength and even if I'm not really ready to trust you fully because I know you're capable of fooling me, I don't see you as deluded or someone to be dismissed. I see that you have an opinion that could be wrong or right, and the rightness or wrongness doesn't really matter in terms of alignment because town are wrong about shit all that time (see: me ITT about everything for all of August and most of September) and scum can be 100% right if they choose to be. I think I get more out of questions like this by observing whether other people think you're being deluded or not, if that makes sense.

Like, imagine that Titus had a checklist of her own in WDPT and if in the middle of Titus vs The Masons I decided to go down the checklist, and newbPlot at the time was basically thinking "why is everyone being mean to Titus?" so newbPlot would have had this same kind of trouble, you know? Or same thing with Titus vs Drixx. I didn't really understand that TvT could be a thing at the time (I was very, very new) so I thought that there had to be a right side and a wrong side, a winning side and a losing side. I have since "won" some TvTs and learned that there were not winners, just survivors.

In this case, let's be fair. Early-on, I didn't want to play my hand and reveal I wasn't a mason by showing all my doubts. (There were a ton!) Later-on, as far as I knew, there wasn't anything TO waffle on: Lalendra was the only possible scum at that point in my eyes.

I know. I'm taking the gamestate into account with these questions. I haven't counted up how many proceeds I got and how many probTowns I got and done some maths equations with them. I'm thinking about each question individually.

Extension of the above: with only one scum left, and two possible candidates, I was very explicitly expecting the game to be over. No need for a legacy if the game ends with a Firebringer lynch. Failing that, Lalendra.

yeah. I also just...don't think every game needs to be a legacy?

I'm thinking about this post from molla a lot lately

Just seems like new town. He's just a boy. Still has that "Oh we're playing mafia! How exciting!" spark to him. He hasn't hit the "fuck im just gonna post like once a day saying fuck you cause i hate everyone" stage yet.

probably because I did hit the "fuck im just gonna post like once a day saying fuck you cause i hate everyone" stage in August sometime. Well, not "fuck you" but "fuck everything" and "fuck me" and I felt like crossposting "ugggggh this fucking game" to most of my games but it wasn't really my games it was me, you know?

I've had some really great town games that I was really proud of and other towngames that I hope get eaten by tigers, you know? I just expect that's a thing that happens to everybody. So even though the checklist says not trying to leave a legacy is more scumMastina than townMastina, I don't think it's damning by itself, especially given the game state. If this happens to be a "maybe this game will get eaten by tigers and then we can stop playing" game for you my only response is "ugh, you and me both, sister."

That's how I feel.

You seem to either be approaching the checklist as if instead of "Proceed" it said "Mastina is obvscum" or expecting me to do so.

I did try to false-crumb though! I tried faking being a mason.

I was interpretting this one more as "not applicable". I don't think it's a scumtell that you didn't obvcrumb VT. I didn't notice you were crumbing mason, heh, and I probably would have jumped on you if I thought that's what you were doing, but I did notice that your posting wasn't HEY GUYS LOOK AT ME I'M A VT YOU SHOULD NK SOMEBODY ELSE posting and I appreciated that! If that's what you mean by falsecrumbing then I think you hit the sweet spot pretty well with it.

Well, technically speaking, my push on Shaddow contained a lot of points that were a stretch? Butyeah. This and the other one are also a result of the setup and gamestate meaning...there wasn't much room for error. (Or so I thought.)

I guess. I think this is another one of those points where I have trouble because I don't think we define either random or illogical the same way. I think there are too many similarities in the way our brains work. You have an "illogical" theory and my reaction is more likely to be "yeah I can see how that could be true" so it doesn't seem illogical to me. If there were more players alive I could maybe get something out of whether they're calling your theories illogical?

Huh? Like...most of the things which are marks against me on here I get. Like, really really get. This one, not so much. How is my tone flat?

Offline stuff that I'm picking up on that I think is affecting your tone globally. I wasn't counting this against you and have been treating it as null because I think what I'm picking up on isn't anything to do with the game state or your alignment in it. You seem pretty exhausted and stuff. I don't think it's a scumtell.

I'd say there was fairly minimal resistance. I was the secondary wagon to Lalendra. Don't remember the Firebringer lynch day, but there was at least interest then, too. The main resistance was simply better candidates for lynching.

Well I was thinking more about today when there's the two of you crossvoting and me holding the hammer and thinking that it doesn't really apply either way, and also thinking that Aristoika has been dead since you subbed in so you don't have any buddies to resist your lynch, which is partially what I thought this question was about.

...Yet here, I haven't had that. I fully realize that in your limited experience of me, you'd probably expect similar play from me here if I were town. But the difference is...in this game...I kinda...have that "given up" mindset.

and this is also partially what I meant by flat tone. But, like, town apathy is a thing. I'm not the newbie that I was in WDPT where I thought Titus was scum because she had town apathy and town would be Excited To Be Playing Mafia Yay Whee Fun.





You're right that I've been thinking quite a bit about that other LYLO because it's the only LYLO we've been in together but there are a lot of differences between these two LYLOs. In that one, I had to prove that I was town while doing my reread whereas in this one I didn't have to also convince you that I was town I just had to figure out which of you two were scum. In that one, bbmolla was buddying me and pushing me in one direction, in this one, I finished my catchup before either of you got off v/la and because I already had hammer vote when I started, it doesn't really compare because you both know or have to pretend to know that the other is 100% scum, whichever of you is town has a role pm related reason to know the other is lying and is not town. So it's more like not_maf vs me with you holding the hammer than anything.

I know that this lylo isn't that one. I know that this game isn't that one. This game is a lot shorter, for one thing, which isn't that great because my playstyle really shines past page 200 as a late game replacement. In games of this size I'm more average and I can have trouble getting my footing in a game. But I'm starting to get better; sometimes I spectate games and there was a recent one where I had an opinion when they were on page 4 or something and I never changed that opinion in the entire time I was spectating and I was right! So there is hope that someday I won't just be a late game player.

But I still do struggle a lot before a game is large enough for the patterns that I recognise best to be entrenched.

Trust me to be fair in my judgement, Mastina. I'm holding the hammer, but I'm not stonewalling you and Bella and I pretty much agree with the way we're leaning, we just need a little more time.

--P

pedit (not because I got ninjaed but because I hit preview and read my post and how long it is) I am sorry shaddowez you are stuck in an endgame with mastin2 and mastin3.

[Rainbow Unicat]

EBWOP:

*I think my trouble with questions like this is that I DONT tend to see you as deluded

left out an important word. proofreading is tech.

--{

[Rainbow Unicat]

Feel better soon! I get migraines too so I know what it's like.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

Well...part of that ties into my expectations of others. When I view the game as town, I am thinking like me. I project my actions into others. (Plot, know how you said that shaddow was playing to your scum meta? Well, I kinda sorta do this type of projection all the time in my mind, even if I'm not aware of it.)

Yeah, me too. I think about what I would be trying to accomplish and then look to see if anyone's trying to accomplish it but a lot of players go about being scum in a completely different way than I do. There are some protown things I only tend to do when I need some towncred which either means scum or town that has grown tired of the game and wants to be nightkilled but sometimes of course I just do them because somebody needs to the thing. But I noticed he was doing some of those little things I was noticing in the games he linked that he was scum in so that's either null for him or at the very least not a towntell for him.

Little things like how I was coasting on IC stuff for most of day 1 in n1628 at the expense of scumhunting (and I didn't get towncred for it because "oh you're the IC you have to help us with mafia theory" which was baffling because I'd gotten heaps of towncred for it in n1615, even from the actual IC...) Shaddowez does that some in the games he was scum in and he does it here too some, talking to firebringer about how he was being wrong about mafia instead of talking to firebringer about how he was scummy. I know I was doing it too, but something about ratios.

Thus the lie I told without knowing I was telling a lie. The actual reason that I didn't think about the shaddow-bussed thing is because...well. Awkward phrasing here, but. As scum I tend not to bus, so I write into others the tendency of thinking they wouldn't bus...even though I'm the author of an article about needing to stop bussing. So it wasn't until I saw the bus-vote-post that I realized it was the kind of bus-vote I'd have made, and therefore, a point I could raise, because I was still thinking like me rather than thinking like another person.

that actually makes a lot of sense. If you're not the type to drive a wagon on your buddy then you're not going to think of it first thing. I don't really like bussing but I will if I have to, and if I have to then I'll make it count and not be wishywashy about it. Sometimes your buddy is dead in the water and you can't let him drag you down too, though. My first 3 buddies were like that. It sucked.





I haven't hammered yet mostly out of a sense of fairness because I'd want to have a chance to speak my mind in his shoes but I don't think it's particularly likely that I'll change my mind at this point. He can try, though, when he's feeling better, if he does feel better in time. I'm still listening for a couple more days.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

@Mod: shaddowez is due for a prod

.

ok mastina. I am so fucking over this game and I don't really see a world in which I don't hammer shaddowez. It's 19 hours until the deadline and I'm pretty sure you're town. Really the only thing I've been waiting for was to give him a chance to defend himself if he was going to and I know it sucks losing a scumgame because offline stuff beyond your control. I think it is fair to let him have a chance to speak even though it is unlikely to do him much good.

Anyway, your interpretation of my walls was really appreciated, and it matches the stances I felt I was taking in them...people usually accuse me of IIoA when I do walls like that but I am too taking stances, damnit!

I went and looked about the "even interactions" thing, and the only games i've played that had scumteams greater than 2 people were tropical volcano mafia in we didn't playtest this (they had that pattern! vyse's interactions with bbmolla and vonflare were about equal. vonflare and bbmolla both interacted with each other more than with vyse but that was because vyse died so early. they were about equal at the time of vyse's death.) and butterfly but i was scum there. massive interacted with us about equally, hiplop died before i had the chance to do numbers for him.

I read your ISOs in those games. Thanks for linking them.

<3

I'll hammer shaddowez in about 12 hours.

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

I'm done. Thanks mastina for engaging with me this LYLO. I know LYLO sucks and it's hard and I know I'm long winded. I'm sorry to the town if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.

I am, however, sorry for my behaviour in this game and sorry for the feelings I hurt and the toes I stepped on and for not working well together with the town, and to everyone I offended and everyone I called a bad player, I'm especially sorry. It's not you, it's me.

VOTE: Shaddowez

--P