Open 611 - Making Friends and Enemies (Game Over!)

[Heartless]

we are building
a religion
we are making

a brand

we're the only ones to turn to

when
your
castles
turn
to

sand

VOTE: luna fox

[Heartless]

doooooooooooooooo
deeeeeeeeeeeeeee
doooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo




everyone who's posted so far is probably town

[Heartless]

ika's opening post was the most townish one

[Heartless]

...who said i was townreading for activity?

[Heartless]

Killthestory seems like one of those players who looks for meaning in every post, when it lacks substance she will create it!

damn...

wait until she sees my drunkposting.

[Heartless]

Killthestory seems like one of those players who looks for meaning in every post, when it lacks substance she will create it!
Reminds me of some players that I both enjoy and hate playing with lol

There should be substance in every post. Meaningless one liners don't help progress the game whatsoever.

are you from another site or are you a newbie?

[Heartless]

Gut? GUT?!?!?!

I quit. *sigh*

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm

you're going to get along better w/ tth than me.

[Heartless]

k1ll

???????

is there a clique from another site?
you seem like you already know each other

[Heartless]

luna, you need to slow down

[Heartless]

you've got about 1/3 of the game posts so far. step away for a bit and let the game breathe and come back later when other ppl have said stuff.

[Heartless]

/looks in

yep, looks like everyone here is still town

i guess the scumbutts are gonna' be late to the party

[Heartless]

actually...

i MIGHT have misjudged toothless here.

i'll sleep on it.

[Heartless]

This is the extent of everyone who has posted before you.
Remove Heartless since you're talking about his reads and you have.
Town, slight town, town, town, null.
Isn't this what Heartless is reading with the exception of you having a null in ika?

Because I actually gave some basis behind my opinions rather than just "yep, looks like everyone here is still town".

alright... teaching moment.

expedience, plz complete the following sentence:
"scum are less likely to give reasons with a vote because _________"

[Heartless]

Hi everybody, I'm TTH. ^_^/

I have to make this quick since I have somewhere to be in about 20 minutes, so let's go ahead and dig in.

I'll go ahead and start off by saying that Antihero's assessment of an all-town game start is quite hasty as I've already collected two scum reads in Firebringer and Expedience. Long story short on Firebringer is that he's turning up the charm in terms of tone and staying under the radar in terms of actual reads. In terms of reads, all I see is a "town lean" on ika (Post 42), which is a "no shit, Sherlock" read to anyone who knows him anyway, and little swipes at Luna (Post 66). The rest of the engagement is theory banter or endearing, witty banter. While I concede that he's absolutely adorable and cute, I think Firebringer's scum here.

We've also got Expedience here. Along with our resident crotchety grouch, Killthestory, he takes umbrage with the most innocuous things but unlike her, there's absent (or contradictory) lines of logic running through them. ika's assessment of Post 105 being a "pot shot" is very accurate and the bottom-line assertion that "This feels like a poor excuse which was made up after you were accused, rather than something that is consistent with your playstyle." is hilariously and fantastically baseless. Another absurd assertion: "I think a town member wouldn't read literally everyone who has posted all at once so dismissively." This doesn't take into account that Antihero's been on this site for 6 years and I'd think he would know things to look for and can process things like this without having to show

all

, or any for that matter, his work. The scum read on Antihero would be

more

palatable to me if he didn't say he agreed with most of Antihero's basic sentiment. But, as it stands, it looks like he's pushing something from the newbie book that's easy to shove.

Killthestory, your argument isn't that hard to knock over. People with different levels of experience will come into the game with different assumptions and different playstyles. The difference between seasoned players and newbies is like the difference between adults who know multiplication and division and second graders who are learning it. Of course their approach is going to

look

different. Do you show your arithmetic on your receipt when you're tipping? If not, does that mean you're not

actually

doing mental math because the thought process isn't written out?

When Antihero talks about "teachable moments," he's trying to challenge your assumptions and biases that are (largely) inaccurate. I think you'd do well to listen to him since he's a pretty strong town player but that's just my biased opinion, I suppose. ^_^

-TTH

[Heartless]

VOTE: Firebringer

-TTH

[Heartless]

I am pretty sure if I wanted to stay under the radar I wouldn't be posting as much as I have been.

who's scum?

[Heartless]

i still think it's more likely than not that expedience just doesn't know what he's doing.

i'm still waiting for my prince charming scum entrance.

[Heartless]

I am pretty sure if I wanted to stay under the radar I wouldn't be posting as much as I have been.

who's scum?

I will get back to you on that when I have stronger reads.
Got a lot of null and few town as of now.

mmmmmmmmmmmmm i dunno

tth says you're scum and she's a pretty sharp gal

you wanna' throw me a bone?

[Heartless]

Sorry, I just got my role PM today.

...?
lol?

[Heartless]

i still think it's more likely than not that expedience just doesn't know what he's doing.

ok, so i looked back and i know you're going to be butthurt when you read that, but it kind of is what it is.

it doesn't seem like you think about your scumreads and the way they interact w/ each other, otherwise i wouldn't think you'd start out the game taking jabs at both kill and luna. your quick, hearty "i don't give a fuck" response to luna after she pointed out to you that your reads and my read were p much the same reinforces this idea that you're prioritizing presentation over actual content and that's... just ... bad. (and that's really the heart of ika's issue w/ you, just in case you're curious. that's what he means when he says "real shit")

[Heartless]

Sorry, I just got my role PM today.

...?
lol?

Mod error. He forgot the 21 at the end of my name when typing up the addressee.

psh, bbt, what a n00b

[Heartless]

gah... closer, but not quite.

i still awaitthe onewho will fit into the glass slipper

[Heartless]

nah, you got me again.

i can pretend to be tth, though.

Hello, I'm TTH and I like to actually use the words I memorized for the GRE. Now let me solve this game.

Spoiler:

I will now type a bunch of sentences about social dynamics and pushes behind the logic and magically vote scum at the end.
VOTE: Scum

[Heartless]

Heartless-Townreads everyone which I have never seen heartless do, then scum reads me which I try to look at as a town tell but I think it felt forced to me. Null for now.

pshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

pshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

if you need me i'll just be in the corner "pshhhhhhhhhhhhhh"ing

[Heartless]

in all seriousness

that gob read is pretty lame

[Heartless]

i'm kinda' getting happy w/ tth's firebringer vote, ika

[Heartless]

i'm kinda' getting happy w/ tth's firebringer vote, ika

even though hes softing to be a mason right now?

pshhhhhhhhhh

no

[Heartless]

he didn't soft it

[Heartless]

if your idea of cooperation is derailing tth's read to lynch gob, i will hate your fucking guts ika

[Heartless]

I can criticize one aspect of a player's behavior while still reading them as town.

that's kind of awful.

word of advice. don't do that.

[Heartless]

if i prog dodge for the rest of the game day would you be pissed at me

just leave your vote on firebringer on the way out

[Heartless]

Give me tommorow to reply to everything.

Meanwhile, I'm going to bash my head into a fucking wall because of these moronic comments.

you need an attitude adjustment

b/c as it stands, you're probably not going to learn anything

[Heartless]

still awaiting a compelling reason for the gob scum read from firebringer.

[Heartless]

Give me tommorow to reply to everything.

Meanwhile, I'm going to bash my head into a fucking wall because of these moronic comments.

you need an attitude adjustment

b/c as it stands, you're probably not going to learn anything

expanding on this, b/c i kind of don't want to just leave it at this.

i don't know how they do things where you're from. but it may not be the same way we do things here, likely b/c of how long our days are. (but don't quote me on that, i'm not sure. i've only done things on two other sites.)

what i can say definitively is that there's a learning curve for this shit. i've been past it. if anything sounds "moronic" to you now, plz ask about it. there's probably a reason for it. and i've probably been in your position of thinking it's moronic before. don't just dismiss stuff as "moronic" though. you're closing yourself off to the learning process and it just doesn't foster a healthy gamestate.

i like your energy and eagerness, but i think there's ways to make it more productive. right now, it has the potential to be toxic.

[Heartless]

They don't have good reasoning behind their vote, because being scum themselves they cannot legitimately scumhunt.

Not sure if you're implying that I'm wrong or just asking if I know or not. If you want to challenge my biases or whatever I'm cool with that.

in theory...

in practice, scum can give reasons so they do and some town don't give reasons for various reasons.

if you look at any completed game, it doesn't take long to see this.

an extreme example: here's 9:12: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=62595
(the whole game is only 9 pages long and they're all really short posts)

a less extreme example, if you have time to read, space dandy: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=62603
and butterfly: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=62917

these are just ones i was in on this hydra, but you can really look at ... any game.

[Heartless]

They don't have good reasoning behind their vote, because being scum themselves they cannot legitimately scumhunt.

OK, NOW THAT I SAID ALL THAT, THERE IS A FUNDAMENTAL TRUTH TO THIS.
but i submit to you that it's a little more nuanced than "so-and-so didn't tack on an immediately obvious reason therefore there isn't one"

along that vein:

Town
Ika-Nothing has jumped at me to say anything otherwise. Ika posts are Ika posts.
Expediance-I don't think he is 'newbie' like everyone says. I also notice a tendancy for players to dismiss someone as newbie and it being blatantly false, so I am going with town for him just to be the black sheep.
Luna Fox-I don't know Luna fox well, nothing has jumped out at me, entrance was odd but playing a setup for first time and asking innocent questions seems fine to me. I did so in a completely different game as town and was scum read by everyone, so I understand.
Null
Killthestory-Puts too much thought into posts, could mean trying to find scum reads as scum, could be try hard town. Don't know, I know the playstyle of hers is familiar but reading players like this is hard.
Heartless-Townreads everyone which I have never seen heartless do, then scum reads me which I try to look at as a town tell but I think it felt forced to me. Null for now.
Alchemist-He just got in, not enough content. He seems like normal Alchemist that I like, but not ready to call him town yet. Liked his entrance though.
Scum
Gob-So little content, how can anyone town read gob? Putting gob at scum for now.
Vedith-HE MUST BE SCUM BECAUSE I SAID SO!

are these legitimate reasons? no, i don't think they are, and i think that gob scumread is an especially egregious example of the political maneuvering in this reads list. the other is the exp read. it's self-described as "dark horse" and i believe that. the residents of the dregs of the list, gob and vedith, are low-charisma sitting ducks that are easy pushes that are just dumped there under the banner of "low content" (the big boogey man of the game.)

(the paranoid side of me also says there's a reason luna made the town list while killthestory showed up in the nulls. from how the luna wagon rose [AND FELL] in the early game, it's pretty clear more of the current active posters are relating to luna a lot more than kill. as such, they're more likely to turn on her than luna. and firebringer knows that and gives himself room to shift later.)

[Heartless]

well of course he can't push people who aren't here at all

what's your point?

[Heartless]

I'm not sure he's going for easy pushes based on low content though given there are some players with even fewer posts.

i mean...

that's not even true on any level, man.

i got to go do something in a second, but if i had the time, i could take a screenshot and show you that gob is the lowest poster with the exception of greyfoxx (who didn't post at all until AFTER firebringer's reads list).

or you can just go to the "activity overview" thing and see what i'm talking about yourself.

[Heartless]

still awaiting a compelling reason for the gob scum read from firebringer.

I honestly don't got anything on gob. Its a gut read.

oh, bullshit

now you're retreating into the haven of "tolerance for gut readers" climate that's been created by us/alchemist/ika/et al.

you acted like having "low content" was some scummy offense and now it's melting into some nebulous "gut read" when it was never advertised as such. i don't buy it.

[Heartless]

255
So much stuff here. Wow, I don't know what to say stuff in here.
If you honestly don't think I would turn on players to be "political maneuvering" you really don't know me.
Its like you haven't played with me Heartless

you're obviously VERY aware of your own meta. you've now invoked self-meta enough times where meta becomes a complete wash

[Heartless]

255
So much stuff here. Wow, I don't know what to say stuff in here.
If you honestly don't think I would turn on players to be "political maneuvering" you really don't know me.
Its like you haven't played with me Heartless

why is killthestory null?

[Heartless]

if firebringer and his bullshit artistry doesn't have a wagon on him by the time i get back i'm not going to be happy

[Heartless]

thanks for telling me neither of them posted yet

[Heartless]

Lets get out of that, it's pointless bickering.

VOTE: KTS

I really don't like his play. He just seems anti town right off the bat for me. If I see something different I'll review my vote.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

vedith might be scum

damn, i'm eating more crow than i thought...

[Heartless]

^ That seems opportunistic as hell.

I thought Alchemist might be getting a bit opportunistic, but Luna seems so much worse.
VOTE: Luna Fox
OMGUSING!

AWESOME, NOW I JUST NEED ONE MORE TO WIN BUZZWORD BINGO

Spoiler:

[Heartless]

I am not even voting goodmorning atm.

You made that post when you were voting goodmorning so this isn't a counter argument.

I actually was voting you at the time of the post you made. SO yes, it is a counter argument.

you actually weren't...

[Heartless]

correction: you were.

it's just irrelevant and your mission now is obviously to drown the thread in bullshit.

[Heartless]

I would like more votes on Luna.

[Brooklyn accent] Your pushes are terrible and your posting stinks. [/accent]

Spoiler:

You've already admitted as much with the read on Gob. The caterwauling about "opportunism" isn't an improvement, and only seems to be a launching point into a shouting match. Have fun in your dogfight with Antihero. I'm on the edge of my seat to see if you'll OMGUS us, you've done a fantastic job keeping that door open by avoiding giving anything definitive.

-TTH

[Heartless]

As long as it was in the brackets.

I'm from North Carolina so I actually have a little bit of a southern twang (that I try my best to minimize ).

-TTH

[Heartless]

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
way to be topical, tth

Also can fire, Heartless and pretty much everyone stop with the really low quality posts that are spamming the thread.

Shut up, seriously.

hi,

i know everyone's sick of my advice. but i'm going to give it to you anyway.

sometimes, two or three or [whatever small group] will get sucked into a conversation that will result in a page or two that nobody besides these two people read.

that's ok. it's not the end of the world. you don't HAVE to read everything. feel free to skip it.

the only thing posts like this^^^^^^^^ are accomplishing are making whoever's participating in the conversation be pissed off at you. you're pissed at them for spamming, they're pissed at you for being a prick and now you're stuck in a positive feedback loop of shit and everyone resenting each other. and if merely SEEING these posts sends you into inconsolable rage... you've got some bigger problems to deal with than this game.

tl:dr; don't try to micromanage everyone else. just skip things you think are pointless. silently.

[Heartless]

i mean if im going to have to be in this game, im going to speak my mind.

just do

everyone

a favor, not just me.

"Everyone"?

You're the only one I see complaining, hon.
Also, is someone forcing you to be here? Because that's the way you worded it. :S That doesn't sound like fun at all.

-TTH

[Heartless]

Do I have to complain? Because I will.

Your stupid petty arguments don't progress the game any further, so stop making excuses about it and just not do it.

:S

For all of Anti's conversational posts, we have some like these

Spoiler:

Hi everybody, I'm TTH. ^_^/

I have to make this quick since I have somewhere to be in about 20 minutes, so let's go ahead and dig in.

I'll go ahead and start off by saying that Antihero's assessment of an all-town game start is quite hasty as I've already collected two scum reads in Firebringer and Expedience. Long story short on Firebringer is that he's turning up the charm in terms of tone and staying under the radar in terms of actual reads. In terms of reads, all I see is a "town lean" on ika (Post 42), which is a "no shit, Sherlock" read to anyone who knows him anyway, and little swipes at Luna (Post 66). The rest of the engagement is theory banter or endearing, witty banter. While I concede that he's absolutely adorable and cute, I think Firebringer's scum here.

We've also got Expedience here. Along with our resident crotchety grouch, Killthestory, he takes umbrage with the most innocuous things but unlike her, there's absent (or contradictory) lines of logic running through them. ika's assessment of Post 105 being a "pot shot" is very accurate and the bottom-line assertion that "This feels like a poor excuse which was made up after you were accused, rather than something that is consistent with your playstyle." is hilariously and fantastically baseless. Another absurd assertion: "I think a town member wouldn't read literally everyone who has posted all at once so dismissively." This doesn't take into account that Antihero's been on this site for 6 years and I'd think he would know things to look for and can process things like this without having to show

all

, or any for that matter, his work. The scum read on Antihero would be

more

palatable to me if he didn't say he agreed with most of Antihero's basic sentiment. But, as it stands, it looks like he's pushing something from the newbie book that's easy to shove.

Killthestory, your argument isn't that hard to knock over. People with different levels of experience will come into the game with different assumptions and different playstyles. The difference between seasoned players and newbies is like the difference between adults who know multiplication and division and second graders who are learning it. Of course their approach is going to

look

different. Do you show your arithmetic on your receipt when you're tipping? If not, does that mean you're not

actually

doing mental math because the thought process isn't written out?

When Antihero talks about "teachable moments," he's trying to challenge your assumptions and biases that are (largely) inaccurate. I think you'd do well to listen to him since he's a pretty strong town player but that's just my biased opinion, I suppose. ^_^

-TTH

They don't have good reasoning behind their vote, because being scum themselves they cannot legitimately scumhunt.

OK, NOW THAT I SAID ALL THAT, THERE IS A FUNDAMENTAL TRUTH TO THIS.
but i submit to you that it's a little more nuanced than "so-and-so didn't tack on an immediately obvious reason therefore there isn't one"

along that vein:

Town
Ika-Nothing has jumped at me to say anything otherwise. Ika posts are Ika posts.
Expediance-I don't think he is 'newbie' like everyone says. I also notice a tendancy for players to dismiss someone as newbie and it being blatantly false, so I am going with town for him just to be the black sheep.
Luna Fox-I don't know Luna fox well, nothing has jumped out at me, entrance was odd but playing a setup for first time and asking innocent questions seems fine to me. I did so in a completely different game as town and was scum read by everyone, so I understand.
Null
Killthestory-Puts too much thought into posts, could mean trying to find scum reads as scum, could be try hard town. Don't know, I know the playstyle of hers is familiar but reading players like this is hard.
Heartless-Townreads everyone which I have never seen heartless do, then scum reads me which I try to look at as a town tell but I think it felt forced to me. Null for now.
Alchemist-He just got in, not enough content. He seems like normal Alchemist that I like, but not ready to call him town yet. Liked his entrance though.
Scum
Gob-So little content, how can anyone town read gob? Putting gob at scum for now.
Vedith-HE MUST BE SCUM BECAUSE I SAID SO!

are these legitimate reasons? no, i don't think they are, and i think that gob scumread is an especially egregious example of the political maneuvering in this reads list. the other is the exp read. it's self-described as "dark horse" and i believe that. the residents of the dregs of the list, gob and vedith, are low-charisma sitting ducks that are easy pushes that are just dumped there under the banner of "low content" (the big boogey man of the game.)

(the paranoid side of me also says there's a reason luna made the town list while killthestory showed up in the nulls. from how the luna wagon rose [AND FELL] in the early game, it's pretty clear more of the current active posters are relating to luna a lot more than kill. as such, they're more likely to turn on her than luna. and firebringer knows that and gives himself room to shift later.)

We outlined our arguments pretty thoroughly and I hardly think it's fair to characterize them as "stupid and petty" because of Firebringer and Anti's subsequent back-and-forth. It isn't particularly bothersome even to me, and I think I have a relatively short attention span.

If you have anything you think is better, Kill, I'd certainly like to see it.

-TTH

[Heartless]

Your mean girl routine is bothering me a lot more than anything Firebringer's doing.

-TTH

[Heartless]

...or any of those people you just quoted.

-TTH

[Heartless]

Do you know what a hydra is or why I'm doing that?

[Heartless]

Sorry, Anti, but I might not stay...

[Heartless]

Yeah, I'm not going to be able to do this.

BBT, if Anti wants to stay in the game go ahead and replace him into our slot. Regardless, I'm leaving. Sorry, BBT.