Open 611 - Making Friends and Enemies (Game Over!)

[Warped]

Hi. I'll catch up over the next couple of days. Don't lynch (or put anyone at L-1) until I'm caught up.

[Warped]

Nearly caught up. Need to check a few ISOs and I'll post my reads in the next hour. I'll likely be voting Firebringer.

[Warped]

I have a scumread, I don't ever sheep other players. I'll explain my read in a bit. I'm in the process of looking through ISO's. In the meantime, can you lay out your reasons why you think Firebringer is a bad lynch.

[Warped]

Caught up. The Firebringer wagon is a good one. His ISO lacks any semblance of scumhunting and it doesn't look like he's trying to figure things out. He has zero scumreads that he has conviction in and doesn't push his reads with any sort of confidence. His votes are lame at best RVS, voting Alchemist before he even posted, joke-voting Vedith to "speed up" his catchup, joke-vote on Heartless, voting Vedith because he has a crush on him, voting GoodMorning telling her to "catch up", voting Luna Fox for "opportunism" (this is his first serious vote). I'd point out that his readslist is scummy as well but others have already hashed it to death. To anyone that's going to argue that this is playstyle, I encourage them to read Firebringer's games when he's town to realize that no, this lack of scumhunting and lack of conviction in his reads is most certainly not his playstyle. Then look at his reactions to being wagoned. The weak pushback on Antihero demoting him a tier down in his townreads after Antihero pushes him, and then discrediting him is weird unless he can corroborate where Antihero had led mislynches before. Then he starts trolling by claiming roles that we know aren't in the game which reads like scum that gave up and are trying to sow a little confusion because they don't know what else to do at this point.

Besides Firebringer, my biggest scumread is CityElectric. This is mostly centered around her push on KillTheStory which is an incredibly easy push for scum to make. KillTheStory has an abrasive nature and has consistently been "making enemies" with several players. But KTS's aggressive attack on Luna is something that scum is very unlikely to do, not to mention that if KTS were scum, she'd be toning down on the aggression at least to the extent she needs in order to play to her wincon. City pretty much nitpicks minor details of KTS's posts, focusing on pointing out how KTS's arguments are flawed as opposed to looking at the big picture. This keeps City busy and look like she's scumhunting. City's read on KTS is incredibly shallow and vague and comes down to KTS seeming "waaaay to focused on how the game should be played in her opinion and too little on actually playing the game," and not sharing any results which is nitpicking on non-alignment-indicative stuff. She also addresses her queries in an odd, conciliatory tone ("I'm only asking bc I have a hard time seeing it personally") which makes it seem like she's trying to say she's not actually scumhunting KTS but only wants to hash out a disagreement which isn't the way a townie normally addresses a scumread but makes sense from scum that don't want to piss off a player with a short fuse while continuing to keep busy scumreading an unpopular player. A large part of her attach on KTS uses borrowed questions, for example seconding Vedith, and repeating what Anti said regarding KillTheStory's scumread on GoodMorning. Ultimately her KTS read goes nowhere. She presses KTS on being hypocritical about meta and then takes another potshot and goes "whatever" leaving the door open to push back later on. The encouragement to create a Firebringer counterwagon while she herself sits on Firebringer is something to look into if Fire flips scum.

Need to look really closely at GoodMorning, Alchemist, and Expedience for the remaining scum.

Vedith is town for aggressively scumhunting. His townread on Expedience but continued scumhunting of him, and his scumread on KTS are backed with a conviction that he seems to believe and his reservations about the Firebringer lynch are town-motivated no matter what FB flips because I don't think scum would either a) defend their buddy the way he did when a lynch was likely and b) derail a town lynch wagon when it is better to sit back and allow it to happen so Antihero can take blowback tomorrow.

GrayFox had a low contribution but I'm reading nearly everything he wrote as town. All the reads here make sense for a townie and there is no hesitation or wishy-washyness that scum are prone to in their readslist. His reasoning for the KTS read is dead-on. I don't care if some very experienced players (like Thor and GoodMorning apparently) are abrasive as scum because they know what they are doing - applying it to KTS is just silly. I'm reading the reservations about the leading wagons being low-hanging fruit as town for similar reasons I'm reading Vedith's reservations as town. Town are far more likely to be prone to be paranoid about things being too easy and the way they both expressed it didn't look fake.

Gob having reads but not posting them is a mild towntell and his general assertive, direct demeanor also gives me townfeels and I have no issue with any of his pushes or how he pushed them. Shaddowez did nothing but he is town for Luna Fox's contributions. ika is town for claiming Mason. KTS is town for the reasons I listed earlier, abrasive nature and hyper-aggressive early push on Luna. Antihero is very clearly town.

To summarize my reads:

Town: Antihero, Shaddowez, Vedith, GrayFox, KTS, Gob, ika (for Mason claim)
Need to re-read: GoodMorning, Alchemist, Expedience
Scum: Firebringer, CityElectric

VOTE: Firebringer

[Warped]

yes, seriously.

vedith's criticism isn't very townish, especially given the lack of a clear alternative push.

I disagree with this btw, especially if Fire is scum. What does he have to gain by posturing against his scumbuddy's wagon while giving town no alternative?

These on the other hand:

Well Ved you now have a vote you can use to create your proposed counter-wagon I say if you want one, make it happen

encouraging Vedith to create a counterwagon while she remains on Fire because she doesn't want to switch unless a wagon actually becomes viable,

On a more serious note, Vedith's hesistance to the FB lynch moves her right back out of the town pile.

and scumreading Vedith for moving off of Fire.

It's likely she's bussing Fire after her attempt on KTS didn't work out and is now setting up to see who can be mislynched after his scumflip.

[Warped]

@ GoodMorning - what is your read on CityElectric? It seems like you have a townread but also have a lot of disagreements so it is a bit hazy for me. I'd like to see a concrete read with your reasons for it.

[Warped]

I'm slightly scumreading her for asking for a counterwagon but not naturally trying to push one herself after she moved off Fire. That is what felt scummy to me.

What's his scum motivation for asking for a counterwagon but providing an alternative? And I want you to answer. Enough tying yourself with Antihero.

[Warped]

@Warped: Explain your Anti townread pls thx.

It stems from how hard he's pushing the Firebringer wagon. His comments on Fire's readslist are very valid. His townreading easy targets like KTS and trying to explain how to get better. Offering advice to players playing badly rather than using it as an excuse for scumreading them. His early thoughts on the game and townreads on most of the players who posted also matched mine as I was reading along. His paranoia of Firebringer using political maneuvering is also something I don't think would occur to scum. His continued questioning of Firebringer and indulging all arguments made there gives off the impression that he's trying pretty hard to figure things out. And scum would be very unlikely to ram a lynch down everyone's throats on D1 and spend all their towncred. If Antihero was scum, he could have easily let KTS or Vedith get lynched and continued pushing Firebringer tomorrow in an "I told you so" move.

Your "paranoia" of Antihero is part of why I'm having a problem nailing down a read on you. Is it normal for you to be paranoid of Antihero? Have you misread him in the past?

[Warped]

@GoodMorning

Page 18 and ppl already calling out my possible mason buddy shush you

HI GM HI ANTI. do you guys want to be mypartner?

The first post here implies he really is a Mason but was trolling about Firebringer being a Mason with him. The second one again implies that he's a Mason.

[Warped]

I initially had concerns about Expedience and thought a lot of people were making valid points about him. I looked more closely and I'm pretty sure he's town actually. The "townhunting" discussion stems from a theory misunderstanding. Expedience seems to have thought that "townhunting" involved hunting town, not developing townreads and finding scum through POE. That bit is null. But there are a couple of things there are townish. First is the strong language he uses towards Luna Fox when pushing her which I think is town because town who believe in their reads tend to be more assertive than scum faking reads. This is especially so for players who don't have a lot of experience; it takes a while to convincingly fake confidence. Second is how his read on Luna progresses from scum to town because Luna was at least townhunting. Then there's his read on KillTheStory which isn't bad for a page 5 read. KillTheStory's points on Luna really weren't strong and I think it might be something that Expedience would have found scummy. I think Alchemist's points regarding his KTS read was pretty strong but Expedience explains it fine by pointing out that he had a townread on KTS all along. I don't like him telling KTS that he wasn't interrogating her but it is a small point considering everything else. He justifies his Gob townread and Heartless scumread very well and it was very townish to initially hold back on this reasoning until asked for because if scum had all this great reasoning, they'd be showing it off, not giving one-liners and keeping it to themselves. This points to him having a lot more depth to his reads below the surface than what he's letting on. His read progression on Firebringer was very believable as he explains it here. So yeah, Expedience is town.

Unless I'm going horribly wrong somewhere, this leaves either GoodMorning or Alchemist as the scumteam's third member after Firebringer and CityElectric.

[Warped]

So, Alchemist. He's pushing the game forward to a large extent. For instance, take his persistent questioning of Expedience. Each of those questions were very valid and designed to elicit alignment-indicative responses. Then, there's his push on Firebringer which starts off with him agreeing with Antihero's points and building on them. His other questions like the one to Gob and GoodMorning were also things I can see from an honest scumhunting perspective. He's one of my stronger townreads now. So, unless the team is GoodMorning/CityElectric/Firebringer, I've gone wrong somewhere and need to recheck.

[Warped]

What are your reads?

[Warped]

UNVOTE:

Not ready for a hammer at this point.

[Warped]

Goodmorning and you are likely town. Or being very arrogant scum.

CityElectric is Null
Killthestory is town.
gob looks scummy
Shaddowez filled in for scum slot.
Heartless/Anti-Hero is town, no way scum tunnel that hard on day 1. Wish he would scumhunt more then just tunnel though.
Vedith null
Ika if was scum would contribute more I think? Probably town, waiting for him to hammer me.
Grayfoxx don't have enough opinion on, all his posts are garbage though. Last game I played with him, he was pretty bad town soo I guess thats good?
Alchemist is ehhh I could see him being scum with Shaddowez since Luna seemed to be buddying with Alch a bit.

Why are Luna and Gob scum?

Which of GreyFoxx's posts didn't you like?

[Warped]

Yeah, never mind. I'm going with this.

VOTE: Firebringer [L-1]

I can't figure out who else could be scum if not him and I have a ton of trouble nailing down three other scumreads. If I'm wrong, at least it means I need to rethink a lot of my reads.

[Warped]

@ GM, why do you have an obvtown read on ika?

[Warped]

Because the only reason I have ika as town is because his Mason claim seems believable and he's even asking people if they want to be added to the Mason thread. Otherwise, he's been active at first and then sort of faded out and hasn't really posted anything of substance.

I'll say that my strongest townreads are Antihero, Alchemist, Shaddowez, Expedience, and Vedith. I lean town on Gob, ika, KTS, and Gray. So, that leaves me with a pool or GM, City, and Fire. But that doesn't seem right especially since GM seems to be suspicious of both Fire and City.

So, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong within Gob, ika, KTS, and Gray. KTS is the one I wonder if I townread too easily. If she were scum, she has to have some type of abrasiveness to go along with how she acts as town especially if she's played offsite.

Re-reading Gob's ISO, there isn't a lot of scumhunting there. He dodges the question about why he found Luna scummy but not Heartless when both those players townread the entire active playerbase and he votes Firebringer essentially as a policy-lynch. The Alchemist scumread doesn't make sense when he also claims Alchemist is wrong, not scum. It is also basically an OMGUS of Alchemist after Alchemist asks him a valid question. The one town thing besides his abrasiveness is that how he reads KTS as town but insists that it makes sense for other people to scumread KTS. Saying Antihero has a level-headed view also contradicts his earlier annoyance with Heartless where he just says "shut up." But the towntells I pointed out in my previous post still stand so I'm null here.

On GrayFox, I disagree with his Alchemist read but his being paranoid of the leading wagons because his scumreads on them is still town and his re-reading Firebringer and ISOing him looks town as well and shows that he's dynamically developing his reads.

@GrayFox

, please elaborate on exactly what you find scummy about Alchemist and Vedith.

[Warped]

That's the spirit, City and Exo!

My bet is that at least 1 scum jumped on the wagon when it was basically set in stone.

CityElectric, Warped, ika Last 3 to vote on him. I would go with at least 1 scum here.

Warped wasn't finding me scummy for questioning the wagon. It's standard that as scum I would play like that, as I didn't really take a stance on him being scum or town. 582 Asking what my motivation is... The simple answer in theory is that I want to draw focus away from a scum member. Unless Warped is an alt that has played with me before, why would he not give the option of it being a save? If he is scum, 601 I can't see him throwing the other scum member under the bus, so I would expect GM or City to both be cleared.
Continuing with 601 He says if he is wrong with FB, then Gob, Ika, KTS and Gray would basically be back up for review (easy distraction away from focusing them later?)
His comment on Gob would suggest to me more of a null rather than a town lean, I'm not sure how not scum hunting and dodging questions is a town lean?
If Warped flipped scum I would like Gob as the last scum.

It's all ifs and buts, however, I'm not liking Warped on D1.

VOTE: Warped

If I were scum that bussed Firebringer, why would I argue down Antihero and say that you wouldn't go out of your way to defend Firebringer? The point of bussing is to get towncred and potentially mislynch townies who look like they could be partnered with the bussed scum.

And you are so sure about me that you automatically clear City and GM? And you've ignored that City not only hopped onto the Fire wagon in its late stages, she went so far as to tie you and Fire together and it is concerning that you've ignored that simply because you don't think City is partnered with me.

What exactly do you think my scum-motive is for suggesting that I will focus on 4 other people if I'm wrong on Fire just in case?

[Warped]

I wouldn't say I'm being defensive. I'm trying to understand Vedith's thought process here because he's the townread I'm worried I could have been wrong about. There's something weird and contrived about how he insisted that his defense of Fire was "standard" for scum. He's jumping through hoops to justify his reads and it doesn't come off like natural town paranoia that scum are whiteknighting him. In my experience, town who are paranoid of people defending them usually are very hesitant and question a lot. Vedith's push comes across like a sort of cocky, trollish confidence - like scum who thought they found something smart they could push on - like a townie who misread them.

[Warped]

Read through KTS's ISO again last night and it confirmed my earlier townread that she's actually trying to figure the game out. She's aggressively pushing Luna Fox, posting reads and in general, driving the game forward so I don't think that's scum.

I'm still reading Alchemist as town with the Fire scumflip. He intially townread Firebringer which is understandable but then voted Firebringer after Antihero started pushing him with a convincing case and Fire (in Alchemist's opinion) responded poorly. I still think the Expedience push was town.

To add to my townread on Expedience, the reads list he posted towards the end of D1 was pretty similar to how I was reading the game so that strengthens the townread as well.

I still can't see anything Luna Fox posted as possibly scum-motivated so Shaddowez is town.

For me this leaves a pool of ika, Vedith, GM, Gob, City, and GrayFox. I want to look them over closely to see if I'm not missing anything crucial.

[Warped]

VOTE: unvote
VOTE: Firebringer

Lets just get rid of this kid so we can actually focus on the game here, 70+ posts and only about 6 are noteworthy.

This post makes me think Gob is town. Scum would be more inclined to call their partner scum for some semblance of towncred rather than hop onto the bus as essentially a policy lynch. His vote for forgettable which isn't normally what scum aim for with bus votes.

His reasons for townreading KTS match mine. I disagree with his read on Alchemist but attacking him for "tone" seems like it came from an honest place.

His withholding of early reads also looked town. So, I'm adding Gob into my townpile as well.

[Warped]

So, Gob, talk to me. Who's scum?

you

When did your read on Vedith change from scum to town?

[Warped]

Town to scum I mean.

[Warped]

Now as for Vedith, explain further as to why you voted me lad.

50% or you attitude is anti town, it's going to be more of an issue going into the game later so I'd rather deal with the problem now.
50% because you do come across as scummy, you are scratching the sides for issues and trying to cause pointless bickering over the minimal stuff. You really aren't scum hunting or even town hunting as some prefer.

In hindsight, this post is especially bad because most of his attack on KTS relies on "anti-town" and almost comes across like he's trying to policy lynch her.

And when you look at the votecount at the time and add in the subsequent votes, it was 2 votes on Fire and 2 on KTS with both of them likely lynches of the day. It reads like he's making stuff up to push KTS as opposed to Firebringer.

[Warped]

With a pool of GM, City, ika, Vedith, GreyFoxx, my best guess at this point is probably Vedith/GM.

I'm leaning slight town on ika for his early game play and current scumhunting. Lean town on GreyFoxx but need more content from him.

I had a pretty strong scumread on CityElectic but I think Vedith/GM fits a lot better as a scumteam. I'll think on this and re-read the rest of this pool of players. In the meantime, I really want GreyFoxx to answer my earlier questions and post his updated thoughts on content on the game.

[Warped]

warped your doing poe and town hunting arent you?

I suppose so.

[Warped]

I mean that while I try to form strong townreads to have a smaller pool of possible scum, I also actively hunt for scummy behaviors and put it all together.

[Warped]

I have some experience playing mafia, yes.

[Warped]

Explain that for me.

[Warped]

Exp, City, Warped, gob, and Gray are all people I want more from. Do you disagree?

I wanted to hear from you. I've posted pretty much all my thoughts in the thread. I do want to hear from Gray and Gob though, especially Gray.

Who are you scumreading besides City? Who are your townreads?

[Warped]

Mostly POE. Vedith and City don't make sense as scum together. I lean town on ika and at the time I made that post, I leaned town on Grey too so I figured it was you/Vedith with the way you were pushing against the Vedith wagon towards City.

I'm not so sure now. I went through GreyFoxx's last 8 or so pages of activity online and I'm stunned at the fact that his posting here is such a tiny fraction of his activity on site. You should check for yourself.

[Warped]

He's active in 3 games and has made 159 posts overall in all of them during the same time frame as this game. So, you'd expect roughly 50 posts here. And he has 18 posts at least 4 of which are him saying he'll re-read later. That's concerning.

[Warped]

City was tying Vedith to Firebringer and saying he was scum for moving off of Fire. If she was scum and bussing Fire, why would she tie another partner to her doomed partner? It seems more like she'd be setting up a town mislynch to follow the bus.

[Warped]

@ GM, I read your posts. Can you give a list of your reads in order? I haven't decided whether Vedith made more sense as scum or City.

@ Vedith, activity levels across games can actually be very alignment-indicative especially if there's such a drastic difference. If you've been reading my posts, you'll notice that my read on you changed from town to possible scum.

[Warped]

You should read then.

[Warped]

And I highly disagree with activity being alignment tell.

It is for GrayFoxxxx. Go ahead and read any of his completed games. Here's the link. He has about 16 completed games and he was town in nearly all of them. His activity level is typically in the top quartile of players. Even if he died N1, he still had a substantial activity level. He also posts a lot in-the-moment rather than after the fact. In the one scumgame I read, he replaced out and had very few posts.

Scum post less then town for several reasons: for newer players, it is more difficult to keep up a charade than it is to post spontaneously resulting in a lot of "catch up" walls. It is also easier to hang back and wait to see which way the wind blows before committing to post. And if a new scum is widely townread, they tend to post even less because they don't want to make a mistake and lose the town-reputation they've built so far and also don't want to antagonize anyone who's townreading them. It becomes slightly easier when they are under suspicion because they simply have to answer the accusations.

GreyFoxxxx is in that place where he was townread and didn't know who to attack or where to go. So, he delays his catchup constantly while not hesitating to play other games all morning.

[Warped]

It is not simply the number of posts. Pure number of posts can depend on several variables and can be affected by real life.

It is the activity level here relative to in other concurrent games. If he's posting a lot in one or two games, it means he has lots of time to play mafia. He's choosing to put this game in back burner.

Do you think the content he did post in this game was townish or scummy?

[Warped]

I went through the beginning part of his ISO and I can see a pretty huge difference. He's very dogged in his reads and starts tunneling Wisdom right away. He's also very confident and assertive in his push. Here, he's just sort vacillating on the sidelines and hasn't made any push with any sort of conviction. This tends to be another tell that's alignment-indicative. Newer scum players try to avoid stepping on toes if they can. But as town, they pursue the leads they believe they have.

[Warped]

For reference, here's the the link to the game you are referring to.

[Warped]

Continuing to read his ISO, the differences are actually pretty big. He tends to use strong and assertive language while pushing his target. He's persistent and aggressive. I see none of that here.

@ GM, you should read the ISO I linked.

[Warped]

VOTE: GrayFoxxxx

I'm much more sure after reading that Wisdom push.

[Warped]

Yeah, I wrote it before I read your post.

I think City/Gray is quite likely actually.

[Warped]

So, I'm reading through Gray's 19 post ISO. His first substantial post is where he calls Heartless town for "questioning a soft-claim?" That's pretty weak. Then there are the null reads on Firebringer and ika where he talks about some irrelevant stuff and how he doesn't know how to read them. The scumreads on Vedith and Alchemist are very surface level too. Then there's the KTS read for being abrasive which is the easiest read for anyone to make ever. Then he soft-defends Firebringer against Gob's policy vote, calls the Fire/KTS wagons "low hanging fruit" without ever addressing Antihero's push there which was a lot more nuanced than pushing Fire because he was lynchbait. Then when pressed on it, he apparently ISO's Firebringer and suddenly comes off with the impression that he isn't low hanging fruit at all, but possible scum. Newer scum often tend to have difficulty defending their buddies when pressured to vote them because they know they are wrong. It looks like he cracked under Antihero's pressure and voted his partner as a late bus. All other posts of his were filler.

[Warped]

Why is ika so high up on that list?

Explain the Vedith and City scumreads in as much detail as you can.

[Warped]

That's actually quite in-depth.

UNVOTE:

Yeah, elaborate on ika and City as well. I'd also like your comments on my posts where I said City/Vedith are unlikely to be partners.

[Warped]

And do you have a reason for your low activity here as opposed to elsewhere?

[Warped]

I'm not impressed by the VCA but his Vedith case showed in-depth thought processes which I associate with town. The way he presented the case would be hard to come up with for scum. But I'd like to see you go through it.

[Warped]

Reading Fire-Gray-City in ISO makes me think Fire could have been overposting to distract from the fact that his buddies were underposting.

Any other insights from the triple ISO?

[Warped]

The case aside, why are you townreading Vedith? I don't think you've explained it so far.

[Warped]

Vedith - what's your read on CityElectric?

[Warped]

I'm feeling a whole lot more town on GrayFoxx after the recent posts. Vedith is bullshitting with his scumreads:

Vedith - what's your read on CityElectric?

Well she's not in my town, I can tell you that for a start. But as I think that you have a good shot at being scum it kind of gives her some credit.
She's voting confirmed town (Because I saw the PM, obviously!) and she was on the Wagon for FB late. Not much else seen from her.

I don't see you both as scum, but if you wasn't I could see him as scum. She hasn't really explained the focus on me like Gray, and as they are both pushing on me I can't see them as a team.

But all 3 go into my scummier pile in this order (Only 1 scum here, but there is a scum here for sure imo).

You - Scum
Gray - Scum but not as much as you
City - Scum but not as much as you and Gray!

If I'm his number one scumread, why would he follow me onto his #2 scumread? Yeah, I get bussing and everything but me suspecting CityElectric seems to have pushed her into the townpile for him but when I suspected Gray, the same didn't apply.

I want to vote Vedith but that'll put him at L-1 and ika's going to quickhammer so I'll post

intent to vote Vedith.

I'd like your claim.

[Warped]

Okay, so here's where I'm at. GrayFoxx's recent posting has removed all doubt about his alignment. I now have strong townreads on Shaddowez, Expedience, Gob, KTS, Alchemist and GrayFoxx. So, that just leaves ika who's a leaning town read and GM/City/Vedith.

I think Vedith's the scummiest. His reads don't make any sort of sense to me. He calls me scum and decides to leave City alone (despite City tying him to known scum) simply because City can't be scum with me. His scumread on me and progression doesn't make sense. I'd expect him to be more frustrated that no one's buying it and say something like "when I'm dead, don't let Warped get away" but nothing. He's even happy to join me on GrayFox despite me still being the stronger scumread. His refusal to claim when he's at an effective L-1 with intent looks like scum trying to be ambiguous hoping to get away with it and just seals the deal. I'm not sure if it is GM or City with him but I'm confident in this much. I'm not convinced by GM's "tone" townread in light of all the scummy things Vedith has done here.

Expedience - I buy Gray's response regarding his inactivity. He did replace out of his scumgames so there's really no analogy at all. I think between Vedith and Gray, Vedith has come across infinitely worse here.

VOTE: Vedith

That's L-1.

[Warped]

Actually, Vedith checking out after he was put at L-1 and ika said he would hammer is as good as an admission of guilt. Note that he has continued to post sitewide. But you can beat ika to it so we can get a flip faster.

[Warped]

Once I voted you, you disappeared for 40 minutes. But the moment, I called you out, you responded instantly. That shows that you were reading and following this thread all this while but only decided to comment once called out.

[Warped]

VOTE: CityElectric

Should have done this yesterday but got distracted with Vedith. Her interaction with Firebringer points to her being scum especially since she claimed Vedith was scum simply for moving off of Firebringer. Her push on KTS was a nitpicky push on an easy target that didn't look remotely like she was actually trying to get a read there.

I need to re-read the thread pretty closely to see who could be scum with her. I have townreads on everyone else so I'm going wrong somewhere.

[Warped]

You stole the words right out of my mouth. I was getting worried he faded out of the game and that his fade-out is exclusive to this game and not sitewide.

[Warped]

The speed of that wagon yesterday is appalling. I think at least one scum, probably both, were on it.

Was it? You were online the evening of Oct 1st. BBT only locked the thread towards midnight. You never said anything then but now it is "appaling?"

[Warped]

Sorry about the inactivity. I need a pretty big reset.

[Warped]

I'm not voting until we get those replacements. If we're wrong, it'll be LYLO tomorrow and it is just going to be hard to lynch scum.

[Warped]

Busy currently. I'll catch up in a couple of days.

[Warped]

There's no way I can see Luna Fox being scum so I'm not lynching Titus on that basis.

[Warped]

I think Expedience is scum. He has a sort of awkward entrance early and gets a lot of flak for it but towards the end of D1, he comes up with a readslist that would appeal to Antihero and me but I don't see a smooth thought progression in his reads. It looks more like he figured out who's going to be the top dog in the town and oriented himself around that. His early awkwardness can be explained by him not really understand the game dynamics and still getting his feet wet.

[Warped]

Firebringer and Luna Fox going after each other could be bussing though.

[Warped]

I've read D1 and I'm more confident that Expedience is scum. His readslist here is probably the biggest indication of this. Take his 3 scumreads that aren't Firebringer: CityElectric, Vedith, and GrayFox. He never said a word about any of these people but towards the end of the day, he shows up with a very Antihero-approved readslist that isn't supported by actual posts and pushes. It looks more like a sheep of Antihero's pushes and reasoning like the Vedith and Gray suspicion for them pooh-poohing the Firebringer wagon. There's the City suspicion. There's City who Antihero was mildly frustrated with for voting KTS over Fire despite suspecting Fire. So, this looks like Expedience wanted to get Antihero (and to some extent me) to townread him by aligning his pushes with ours. Antihero was always going to be threat to scum so getting a townread from him before nightkilling him and following up on his other suspects isn't bad strategy-wise.

[Warped]

GrayFoxx's insistence that City and Vedith are scum together while ignoring my posts pointing out why it isn't the case looks pretty scummy.

I also think the activity points I made on page 29 and the top of page 30 are still valid.

[Warped]

Expedience's brief suspicion of GrayFoxx on pages 31-32 seems just that - brief. After GM and I go over GrayFoxx's activity levels elsewhere, Expedience changes his vote to Gray, then swithches back to City. It looked like he wanted to get in on a potential Gray wagon but once that fizzled out, went back to City who he'd be able to push the following day after Vedith was the D2 lynch.

Based on D2 and the very short D3, I think it is Expedience and GrayFoxxxx. I'll have to read D4 and that's going to take a little longer since I wasn't here for most of it.

[Warped]

Quote it. What am I missing?

[Warped]

@Expedience, I am concerned with that readwall solely because it is Heartless endorsed. Heartless had correctly pegged my scumteam D1 by page 5 and I'm not that bad as scum.

I think the problem here is that you haven't read D1 as a whole.

Antihero came up with those scumreads. Expedience copied them. So, obviously Antihero is going to endorse them if they're just a rehash of his own reads. It is not like Expedience was the first to come up with those reads and Antihero agreed with them after.

[Warped]

Day 4, Alchemist comes across as the most genuine like he's really trying to figure out the game. His thoughts on Gob's motivations and possibility for Gob being scum with KTS show that. Same with Titus. I'm pretty confident it is Exp and Gray.

Just going to wait for everyone to chime in.

[Warped]

I'm here. I was waiting on GrayFoxx.

[Warped]

I have every intention of refuting your points once GrayFoxxxx returns and Titus tells us where she's at. I've said my piece, Alch said his and you said yours. I want to hear from other two.

The only reason for me to engage you

before

they return is if I have a sudden revelation that you're town and want you to reconsider which I haven't.

[Warped]

You've gotta do better than that, Titus. Alchemist has been exceedingly town in the last page and Expedience's arguments have me more convinced that he's scum. I'm wavering between you and GrayFoxxxx so if you can help me get a better read on you, that'll be helpful. So far, you haven't committed at all and kept all your options open.

[Warped]

Not really. But I want GrayFoxxxx's opinion first so I'll wait.

[Warped]

Prod dodge.

[Warped]

Also, I want to see Gray or Titus throw down a vote first. That'll help me get a much more solid read on both of them.

[Warped]

Also, I want to see Gray or Titus throw down a vote first. That'll help me get a much more solid read on both of them.

Or it'll help you win by quickhammering... Please nobody vote yet, just say who you suspect or something.

Lol.

[Warped]

Why are you reading Gray as town?

Why aren't you worried about Titus's lack of committing?

[Warped]

I mean, you can't just sit there and hope that other people cross-vote each other.

Everyone besides you and Gray have given their views. Nobody is confirmed town. I'll make my decision based on what Gray and you have to say, and while I'd like for Gray to go first, I'm also not just going to vote before you commit to a position.

[Warped]

*Drums fingers impatiently*

Gray said he'd be back by the 24th. It's the 25th and no word from him. Still think the most likely team is Exp/Gray. A very, very outside chance of Titus but I don't see it.

Titus, if you misvote after Alch and I have the game figured out and single-handedly lose the game, I will be pissed.

[Warped]

VOTE: GrayFoxxxx

[Warped]

Looks like I'm within an hour of prodding as well.

I suggest dropping a vote on GrayFoxxxx. I really think he's scum here.

[Warped]

Scum would have hammered by now and I'm not scum.

[Warped]

GrayFoxxx has two votes. If Expedience isn't hammering, that confirms that he and GrayFoxxxx are the team. Glad I was right.

[Warped]

Good. Now hammer GrayFoxxxx and then lynch Exp in 3P for a town win.

[Warped]

That's a pointless exercise. I've analyzed and re-read the game at the beginning of D4 when you were sitting on your ass and waiting for people to crossvote so you can lavish in your conftown status. You got your wish. Alch and I successfully figured out both scum and cleared all the town.

Now put in some work and figure it out. If you have any questions about anything I did before I voted GrayFoxxx, ask. Beyond that, most people's motivations here are the same: get the other pair lynched. So, your real info can be found prior to D5.

[Warped]

It is Expedience/Alchemist.

Except I'm not sure why Exp didn't hammer GrayFoxxx.

[Warped]

BBT isn't going to be here for several hours. Whichever of you are scum, out please.

[Warped]

So, it was Alch and Gray?

That's why Exp didn't hammer Gray.

[Warped]

If that's the case, then Exp's vote was the loser vote.

[Warped]

Wow, you really have faith in Titus despite your earlier post.

You said it yourself, she was waiting for the crossvote.

You and Titus?

[Warped]

Luna Fox played well then.

[Warped]

It has to be you and Gray because if it was either Exp or Titus, they'd have hammered Gray.

[Warped]

You played well.

[Warped]

If we lynched Gray, I assume you'd have taken me to 3P with Exp to attempt to get us to crossvote?

[Warped]

I still did have my suspicions of Exp but the tipping point for me was my belief that Gray's entire pattern for this game was that he never seemed invested or cared about scumhunting. His play in other past games looked like he was passionate and invested. His activity level always was higher in other present games. I understood that he had a daughter born but that's the sort of thing that should cause a sitewide decrease in activity, not just here. He just seemed more clearly scum to me than Exp who just seemed to be playing a good scumgame. Ultimately, that's what tipped the scales.

Don't know why Exp was townreading him though.

[Warped]

I doubt town would have won this one. Gray had Exp convinced. You had me convinced. Titus was only interested in sitting back and solving for "logical pairs" which would have 100% resulted in a town lynch either today or tomorrow. I think my mistake was in lynching City and not sticking with my Vedith townread. But scorpious looked town as well and I have no idea why he got lynched. Antihero kept the game on track. Once he died, it sort of fell apart.

[Warped]

Mostly, it came from people hotly debating Vedith vs City and sort of setting up a dichotomy. Once Vedith got lynched, everyone that was on that lynch and still suspected City must have felt really terrible for switching so got the pitchforks out on City. That City lurked and never defended herself accelerated that process.

[Warped]

I still did have my suspicions of Exp but the tipping point for me was my belief that Gray's entire pattern for this game was that he never seemed invested or cared about scumhunting. His play in other past games looked like he was passionate and invested. His activity level always was higher in other present games. I understood that he had a daughter born but that's the sort of thing that should cause a sitewide decrease in activity, not just here. He just seemed more clearly scum to me than Exp who just seemed to be playing a good scumgame. Ultimately, that's what tipped the scales.

Don't know why Exp was townreading him though.

it was site wide...

Im pretty sure I scum hunted enough to cause a few mislynches. Meh Idk i think i did good for my first scum game.

You did good. I latched onto you at one point during D2 but your case on Vedith looked good and other people looked scummier. GM's analysis on your case was pretty accurate as well.

[Warped]

Alch's bus on Fire was good and it looked really natural as well. I did a few double takes but Anti's reasoning was solid and I could easily see town going along with that.

[Warped]

I believe TellTale made a case on Expedience but after that I think Antihero's most solid townreads were me and Expedience with him just suspecting GrayFoxxx towards the end.

[Warped]

it was site wide...

Im pretty sure I scum hunted enough to cause a few mislynches. Meh Idk i think i did good for my first scum game.

Scum always say this but sitewide activity is the single most accurate scumtell ever in the history of mafia. Both you and Alch were absent at specific times during the game. Alch ignored the City lynch and came back the next day and told us how bad it was. So, when people like Vedith go "nooo, activity level is non-alignment indicative, I just think they're missing out."

[Warped]

Well yeah. I was pretty convinced that it was going to be Alchemist / Warped, nice work scum on getting themselves on both sides of the divide.

I wish I helped you lynch Alch after that City stuff he pulled out but he played really well D4.