Open 633: Near Vanilla-GAME OVER

[Imperium]

VOTE: magnaofillusion

Welcome back man, welcome back!

Also, hi bellaphant, I didn't notice you were signed up

[Imperium]

VOTE: Lowell for having I think the shortest possible post that contains a valid vote.

VOTE: magnaofillusion

Welcome back man, welcome back!

Thanks! I think ... this is one of those "Not the welcome back you deserve but the welcome back you need" things, right?

MOD - I'll be V/LA til Monday. Weekend family duties in all. Hopefully I can get a chance to check in.

Nope! This is one of those "welcome back because we missed you" things.

-other head

[Imperium]

VOTE: KT

thanks for the naked vote sir, they make me feel special. Now if I can get 7 of those I will die and I don't like to die so if I get close to 7 votes you can unvote so I don't die, but if you would like me to die there is nothing stopping me from having you remove that naked vote.

Have a nice day.

I think that this is probably more likely to come from town than scum; it's pretty obviously an overreaction but KT is a newer player and I find that newer players tend to trend towards less words as scum, not more.

That case on KTthecreeper reads fake. Paying more attention to oneself is a natural human tendency. Regardless of KTthecreeper's alignment, he's obviously going to notice when his name is mentioned and react to it. What does it matter that he ignored other RVS votes placed on other players?

Paying more attention to yourself is a pretty common scumtell (playing for survival instead of playing to find scum); the only way this case works against Lowell is if you think that he is both aware of that tendency and that it would factor into his reads while pushing a page 2 read. I don't really think this is the case.

And I also KT is a player that heavily disrupts the flow of information, so his death D1 is a win either way.

In a vast majority of cases, I find that people who push policy lynches while doing nothing else disrupt the flow far more than the people that they are trying to policy lynch, so don't be one of those people

In the context of what has gone on in thread - not really. Nothing exceeding Town to be found this early in any play.

I agree that nothing exceedingly town happened, but I could see it being pretty believable that Lowell townread your early aggression because people often make mistakes like that.

[Imperium]

Actually, acryon, this is the most negative thing you said about him in the most recent game you've played with him:

Eh I can't help but disagree. His playstyle, town or scum, makes the game less enjoyable for everyone in town. There are a million ways to play the game that don't have that effect on town. Maybe I'm a bit of a purist, but I don't like the idea of leading people astray based on something other than words.

How did you move from "he makes the game less enjoyable" to "lynching KainTepes as town is just as good as lynching scum"?

[Imperium]

I could see potential town reasons why he would push it but if that's the case, I want to hear it from him so I can dig further.

Okay. Stepping away for now.

[Imperium]

yeah I also hadn't read your post. Get over yourself.

Assuming you just now remembered this game, why throw down an RVS vote as opposed to offer your thoughts on the non-serious content in the thread?

not RVS.

24/25 <--- who states suspicion only to come back literally an hour later to put a vote down? I could understand if it were a few minutes later and you were like "oh ya, I forgot to vote him actually" but no, he calls him tryhard scum, which is like ¿qué? cause like one thing is saying he was to lengthy in his response to a naked vote, (which I don't even get I mean when did post length become alignment-indicative) but another is calling him tryhard scum based on one post.

This is probably the best point in thread so far.

Vote: Ollie

[Imperium]

KT is town.

[Imperium]

Lowell, come vote Ollie with me - it's a hell of a lot better vote than the thing you're doing now.

[Imperium]

and I love how "my existence hurts the town" when I literately posted 4 times. The only way you could have a chance of reading someone in 4 post is either if they post a screen shot of their role PM or if you have played 10+ games with them.

Acryon's reference to KT was KainTepes, not you.

[Imperium]

Yeah, the acronym choice was not the best.

[Imperium]

KT is town.

This was my initial reaction as well, but I've played with him before and his play as town was a lot different although he wasn't under pressure then. I also followed a game where he was mafia and he did very well emulating the lost, confused townie act. So, I'm waiting to see how he actually pushes his reads.

By the way, I think we played together briefly. You're the same Nachomamma8 that was in that multiball game offsite where you were a governor?

While I don't think KT's scum game is weak per se, I do think that it is very one-dimensional. I think that KT is a very reactive player in general, hence a play like this as town makes sense; he's been getting wagoned and mislynched as town a bunch, he's frustrated, he's trying to approach being pressured differently. Whereas as scum, it requires him to take initiative by purposefully overreacting to a meaningless push on him and backing up that overreaction with past experience which is something that I think is pretty uncharacteristic of his scum play. The emotion displayed (feeling uneasy and frustrated early) also lines up pretty solidly with his commentary in the History Mafia PT where he comments that he is less comfortable playing as town than as scum.

It's possible that he's scum, of course; it's not likely that I will have solid solid town reads before the end of the day. But, as of this moment, he's the person that I feel is the least likely to be scum. Reasonable?

And yes, that's me! Good to see you again.

@Ollie:

Why did you wait for an hour to vote?

24/25 <--- who states suspicion only to come back literally an hour later to put a vote down?

Why is it scummy that he came back an hour later to vote?

For the record, I don't think that it's scummy he came back an hour later to vote, just worthy of observation.

[Imperium]

I reread the thread later & thought I'd put some pressure on.

Whoops. Computer is acting a little weird and it's easier to post in chunks as opposed to big walls, so sorry in advance if I ask a question that is answered two posts later

jmo16mla is probably town. From the few posts he made, he picked up on the same things about Lowell that I wanted to ask about (that quick townread on MagnaOfIllusion) and I agree with his perspective of Lowell's case as well.

Is this a significant read if Lowell is town?

So do you find anything suspect about Lowell’s push on KT then? Because I find his summary of how things progressed to be at best a very slanted interpretation of Creeper’s response.

I don't really mind heavily slanted posts in early game; I find that some people push pretty strongly on things that they don't feel so strongly about in an effort to get the game moving, and Lowell's subsequent play (aka notice how he's dropped the read and moved on) supports that's how he was probably playing.

See this is where you lose me. Because the most damning of the exchange at 22-25 between Bella and Ollie is not that it took him an hour after posting 24 to vote in 25. It’s that he only voted for Creeper at all because Bella repeatedly badgered him about his read. And Nosferatu doesn’t address that element in his 73 at all.

Why is the time delay more damning then what I pointed out?

I don't think it's fair to say that the only reason that Ollie voted for Creeper is because Bella badgered him about the read; I feel like it'd be more fair to say that Bella forced him to look seriously at KT. After all, the only commentary Ollie offered on KT when Bella asked him to play seriously was "he's creepy", which was obviously a joke: he could have said that he didn't have a read, and that would have been reasonable, or he could have offered a weak lean one way or another and done nothing about it and it still would have been reasonable. The reason that I thought that the observation about Ollie coming back and voting KT later was the best line of thought to follow in game because it meant that Ollie left the game, came back to the game, and noticed something that he didn't before. The reasoning that he offered (that he decided that adding pressure was better than not) makes sense; the possible scum motivation that I had in mind when pursuing was that he possible looked at the exchange between him and Bella and thought it looked a bit weak and added the vote to make his play line up with his words.

Does that make sense?

-OceanWind is scum. Felt like jumping on the coat-tails of Ollie.

I don't really understand where you're coming from here.
How was OceanWind riding Ollie's coattails? And why would he ride Ollie's coattails?
What do you think of his other points?

Also, why are you reading KTS as town?

As for Church I just really appreciated the support at that time, you know.

This is a natural human tendency, which is probably why Church would make a move like this. Is there a reason you think that he'd be less likely to do this as scum than town?

Acronym and Jmoe ping me very early on. ISOing now

I'm not sure about you, but when im scum, i typically give out town cards pretty easily. do you?

Your play has been fairly one-dimensional up to this point; I find it hard to believe that the only thing that you look for in others is "town reading too early". What do you think about OceanWind's early town reads? What do you think of CoM's post supporting Ollie? What do you think of my early town reads?

You're still prodding for information regarding someone's view of you.

I don't think this means that he's worried about his standing in town.
Would it be suspicious if I asked OceanWind why he left Magna off his reads list?

[Imperium]

You fluffed through your posts until I called you out on it. Suddenly - WHAM - active Acryon. Scum reaction IMO.

I've found that certain players (*cough* Tammy *cough*) tend to get invested in the game when their name is called, and I do think that it's possible acyron found the last few pages more interesting than the first few (which is a view I'd certainly share!).

[Imperium]

ChurchOfMercy is probably my best bet for mafia right now. Very minimal posting with no serious content. I've followed I think two or three games by now containing Albert B. Rampage and he always has more passion as town.

I agree with this.

Vote: ChurchOfMercy

I also disliked their blatant Lowell sheep + attacking you for offering a different viewpoint; it seems more likely to me that Klingon was just taking sides than actually reading Lowell's case as super-duper solid and your defense as scum defending scum; ABR's "I support Ollie and think he's town" also felt a little slimy to me, but that's far less significant than their lack of engagement in general.

[Imperium]

I thought there was a decent chance he could be, yes.

[Imperium]

You guys, I'm known for being useless Day1, NAI. I'm more of a Day3 player.

I understand that you can occasionally be a low-volume poster Day 1 (I wouldn't call you useless). My problem with ABR not engaging on Day 1 is because I normally find Day 1 to be one of his most alignment indicative days; while I think that he typically is able to fake passion for a push pretty simply as scum, it's much harder for him to fake how he gets those reads and how he develops his picture of the game state, and, because he is an aggressive town player, he usually pushes to form a picture of the game on Day 1.

My big problem with your side of the hydra is mostly how you opened the game; why did you agree with Lowell's case on KTthecreeper?

I will coordinate with Klingon in our PT and offer my thoughts and criticisms. If you all want to gang up on us before we get a footing, that's your right of course. You can win without us, I believe in you.

There was never a desire on my part to win without you; I generally don't mind putting early pressure on players that I think can shake it off pretty effortlessly, but if you need room to work, I'll give it to you.

[Imperium]

Still catching up, but what's your read on jmo and would you be willing to help me push there?

[Imperium]

Early on, Ollie began his 1v1 with Nosferatu, and it seemed clear through the dialogue that Nosferatu was on the backfoot. Then in 100, OceanWind decides to pile on. This felt like latching on to the low-hanging fruit, but he gets to avoid suspicion since Ollie started it. As for his points I don't like them. He points to not being pro-active as if its definitively scummy, when it's not. Some players are pro-active, others may be more reactive; it's NAI.

If Nosferatu was pretty clearly on the backfoot (aka losing), I don't think it's exactly unreasonable for a town Oceanwind to side with Ollie (the winner); sure, it's possible that OceanWind as scum was siding with the winner, taking advantage of someone when they're vulnerable, but I don't think that's far more likely than someone agreeing with the stronger side of the argument. What do you think of OceanWind's townread on jmo?

What is your read on Ollie now?

Town. Did you need me to expand on this?

where's your head at with kill the story?

I don't really have a significant read on him; he's confident and aggressive and I don't exactly disagree with his reads, but I also don't really have a strong bead on his scumgame and haven't found any thought processes or plays that seem overwhelmingly town.

what are your thoughts on nos?

Leaning town; I thought their initial observation re:Ollie was decent, seemed genuine, and I liked their attitude when being attacked by Ollie and OceanWind in general (it seemed confident enough where they believed in what they were saying).

Why did you choose to ask me about these two players?

Ocean. Super town. Confident early game, some good posting 39. Actively scum-hunting. Easy town.

Could you go a little more in depth in this read?
The things that you point out in OceanWind's play are things that I'm not really sure are scumtells for him; I don't think he'd have any trouble at all faking reasonable sounding scumhunting as scum, and I'm extremely confident that confidence isn't a towntell for him.

I am fine with a ChurchOfMercy lynch today.

I'm diffident about whether to read through for other scumreads as well before seeing the flip.

My personal opinion is that you read through for other scumreads, if you don't mind; both replacements are pretty big question marks for me and it'd be nice to see what you two bring to the table.

[Imperium]

Magna, what is your read on jmo?

[Imperium]

I had no real issues with every post up until this one. It gives off the distinct tones of scum trying to present a laid-back comedic town attitude, but the delivery just falls flat. It could be a matter of the person, but this post makes no legitimate sense as to why it was posted or what it sought to achieve other than the above.

I agree that this post is a bit of a strange post, but, from what I've read of KTthecreeper, his posts are a little strange tonally, and I find the follow-up explanation that he posted to be pretty damn believable and fairly creative coming from a newer scum player. I also feel like I have a pretty good handle on his thought process on scum based on my familiarity with this scum topic (if you glance through it quickly, you'll probably be able to see where I'm coming from), and the "I'm going to make this post to sound laid back and funny" scum motivation that you're looking for here doesn't really mesh with his thought process does. What does mesh well, however, is the "trying new approaches in order to fix problems in his towngame" piece. I don't think he's a self-aware enough player to fake this particular aspect of his meta (I don't think he's aware of my familiarity of his meta), and to address a concern you bring up later in this wall, I don't think that if he was trying to pander to me specifically just by posting more "words" that it would align so closely with his previous thoughts about his town game.

Does that make sense?

[Imperium]

Still catching up, but what's your read on jmo and would you be willing to help me push there?

I'm fine with that. Klingon can sign off on it.

Albert

Also, why were you scumreading us earlier?

[Imperium]

Null. He’s pretty much non-engaged. I don’t give any ‘dumb Town’ credit for 32-33 but it certainly doesn’t warrant scum-points either. I can see why, if he doesn’t know Lowell from Adam, Lowell’s call of me as Town early would be suspect. 62 is full of logical Town oriented thinking. His line of thinking in 179 and 206 about scum being in best position to call other players Town on little basis is a theory I believe in personally. Hell, if not for the fact that he is very non-engaged (other than going after Lowell and Killthestory) I’d probably be very comfortable with a fairly solid Town read on the slot.

This makes sense; I guess that my scumread on him was mostly founded on previous experience with him (he's not usually this disconnected from a game) and thought maybe that OW's townread on jmo was him protecting a scumpartner in a better position than Church, but now I'm coming around to the fact that I'm probably getting too ahead of myself, hence not minding this Day going a bit longer so I can get a better bead on some of the lower volume posters.

[Imperium]

My last experience with Klingon (I believe) involved me spearheading a mislynch on her because she made a lot of posts where she complained about people not listening to her and urged the town to kill certain people if she died, then claimed a role that could choose between doctoring and vigging but didn't end up vigging them because she didn't want to accidentally kill a townie; I didn't think this meshed, I was horribly wrong.

As it stands, I find the Kain vote ridiculously shallow especially when her hydra partner is being pushed for lack of engagement (I don't think it's a direct contradiction because the Kain vote is Klingon but the "lack of engagement isn't scummy" was Albert), I find the confident scumreads but absolutely nothing to back them up as something more indicative from posturing scum than confident town (not to mention it conflicts with the whole "I'm not very good at D1 statement earlier), so no, I don't think you're overthinking things at all.

[Imperium]

I'e had far too much to drink tonight, so if I don't make sense, polo forgive me and ask me to clare whatever up tomorrow.

[Imperium]

Also, hi bellaphant, I didn't notice you were signed up

Bella - I feel a bit snubbed

[Imperium]

Oh I'm feeling a bit better about OceanWind since his town read on jmo is recently dead. Neither one of us can understand why anyone has a town read there, and while I've had suspicions on both slots, nacho and i both agreed that it would be more likely for jmo to follow a townie on a bad push early game than a scum buddy, so we were having a slight issue seeing an ocean/jmo team though found both independently scummy and had no clue why ocean though jmo was town.

[Imperium]

The big problem with Church is not that they're being zen about being pushed. I can totally understand that someone in a better positiion in their lives might be all kumbaya and I applaud that and want to group hug them about it. My problem is that there is no oomph in their pushes.

[Imperium]

Nacho and I were in 100% agreement that Creeper's posts looked really town earlier, but him not showing up and doing anything at all negates those early feelings on this end.

[Imperium]

Reading through MagnaOfIllusion's and Acryon's arguments on the current page, I'm actually agreeing with Acryon more than MagnaOfIllusion. The latter calling my post where I called him town "appeasing" was ridiculous and smacks of "look at me, I'm accusing people that are townreading me." I also thought Acryon's point on low-hanging fruit was fairly straightforward. He says he's not but he might be perceived as such based on early play. So, I have no idea why MagnaOfIllusion is incapable of understanding it after several explanations. I still want my own concerns answered but I'm less suspicious of Acryon than before.

I didn't like this post though.

Although I'm town reading Acryon, his low-hanging fruit argument was stupid as Magna has been pushing at pretty much anything that strikes him as off, though at the same time I completely understand Acryon's point. However, I've had enough experience and arguments with Magna to know that Acryon's argument about him being low-hanging fruit but no really would strike Magna as completely off.

What makes me laugh about this is that I think from the way that Ocean Wind has approached this game so far that that conversation should be clear. I also think that Ocean Wind would understand the appeasement argument, and this post here where he pulls back on his town read on Magna reminds me of Wedding Blitz Invitational where Malakittens!scum gave me a townread for reasons she shouldn't and when I called her out on it, she suddenly found my posts null. Amusingly, I thought that Nosferatu's "8:40" thing was extremely obvious therefore him getting after someone for something straightforward rang false to me and I also thought that the early Lowell push was trash, so. But oh I'll probably get there soon.

[Imperium]

CoM's later on posts regarding AtE gave me bad vibes, but his early posts gave me good vibes. I think his push on Bella is null indicative, but I did notice to a lesser extent any real power wagoning there. I was overexaggerating when I said that he was definitely town because I didn't want him to get hammered. I think Bella would be the best lynch there.

Which ones gave you good vibes and which ones bad?

[Imperium]

So ABR really you decided to gut scum read us and not interact with us at all???

[Imperium]

I'm going to sleep; I'll pick up on antigen that Nacho didn't already tomorrowafterI wake up.

I've you all and I wish thatsomeof you weren't kllersthat we have to hang :/

[Imperium]

This is opposed to a flake, someone that completely ignores the game.

How can you not see that the flake is clearly scummier than the low-volume?

Hmmm. Generally, I find that when someone lurks to the point where they need to be replaced out, they probably have things outside of their control that are happening or are replacing out for a reason that's slightly more complex than "I rolled scum", and I'm fairly confident that you don't hold a view outside of that based on you not having any weird pushes on flakes in any other game that I've played with you in. Am I missing something here?

Church is town.

I'm getting a feeling where I'm about to hammer out scum. Don't even fucking think about me right now, oh my god oh my god I'm feeling it.

I'm not really sure where this feeling is coming from; my scumread on Church has only strengthened as time passed, not lessened.
I've expressed most significant reads that I've had; if there's something you want me to go in depth on, let me know.

His posting there as mafia is actually more similar to his towngame than his posting here. I'm not even sure he's mafia but I suppose I just want to hear more thoughts on KTthecreeper.

I think his mafia posting is more similar to his town game there than it is here because he was engaged in those two games that you're referencing but not really engaged in this one, which, weirdly enough, strengthens my original reason for town reading him. If he were scum, his opening would be abnormal, and I find when mafia players have abnormal openings, they typically stay engaged in the game than they would if they were town and it was just another game.

CoM does flip scum and this is where I’m going next. I could see Kill bussing CoM for underperforming, realizing that there was no significant pressure elsewhere and deciding that he wasn’t going to get enough Town cred to make the bus worthwhile.

In 349, I asked CoM to join me in making a jmo push. Albert said that he'd talk to Klingon about it, and then never brought it up again.

I found this interaction as far more likely to be indicative of partners than Killthestory suddenly deciding to not scum read Church for unknown reasons, especially considering how CoM followed Killthestory onto Bella and egged him on in the way that they did; I think CoM would be more careful to tie themselves to a partner in a strong position, especially if Killthestory decided that he was going to stop bussing them for a little while.

[Imperium]

I'll see if I can catch up. If not I'm just going to replace out

Never mind I completely reconsider my read on Jmoe this is 99% town without a doubt

Why?

[Imperium]

Okay.

[Imperium]

Tuesday is a bit of a busy day, but I'm going to work on putting out a complete read list/finding a few more things to look at before deadline hits in about 4 days from now. Friday (in a little less than threw days) is my newly official mafia day, so if there is any chance we could hold off lynching before then, it would mean a lot.

[Imperium]

And for the other hydra in game, Tammy is usually town for me.

Have we played together?

[Imperium]

Confirming my replacement and that I've seen my role PM. Let's read.

Here's a readlist.

Town {MagnaofIllusion, Oceanwind, Ollie}
Townlean {Bellephant, Jim, acryon, Killthestory}
Scumlean {Lowell, Imperium, Nosferatu, ChurchofMercy}
Scum {Severa}

ChurchofMercy is interesting, because I see a lot of associatives with them (and a lot of info to be gained from that lynch), but I don't necessarily think they're scum, so I'd like to consider. Let me read that one a little more thoroughly.

Severa, on the other hand, has done almost nothing and I feel like that's a particularly worthy lynch, if we run up against it. Also, UNVOTE:

Did you read the entire game?

[Imperium]

@Imperium which posts are from who, you guys haven't been signing and I haven't played with either of you enough to know your posting behaviours.

We don't sign our posts, but what would knowing whose posts are whose do for your ability to read us?

[Imperium]

Caught up, vote staying.

also, imperium said they felt snubbed by me and I just realised it's tammy! hi tammy! wanna come soul read me?

Hi! I will and hopefully have that ability .

Hopefully I'll be able to really get engaged in the game over the next couple days.

[Imperium]

I'm incredibly skeptical of SnarkySnowman putting me as sole confirmed scum with current levels of content from my slot.

Feels like an attempt to generate a counterwagon. CoM flips scum that's my first priority.

I'm incredibly skeptical of the fact that he read the game in less than a half an hour enough to provide a reads list.

[Imperium]

1. What Acryon said was that he was difficult to lynch. He also said that his early posting and low activity level may cause someone who didn't know him to perceive him as low hanging fruit. MagnaOfIllusion took issue with this and attacked Acryon for this "self-contradiction." I found that a bit ridiculous since "

I'm not low-hanging fruit but based on my activity so far, you may perceive me as low-hanging fruit and therefore attacked me

" seemed perfectly reasonable and has no self-contradiction. It seemed me like MagnaOfIllusion was just throwing whatever arguments he could at Acryon because Acryon wasn't particularly townread or in a strong position at that point. When pressed on it, Magna clarified that it was the fact that Acryon was using charged language like "low hanging fruit" in a situation that didn't warrant it that he found suspicious. I found that explanation somewhat more reasonable than "self-contradiction."

2. I did find Magna's attack on me scummy. I'm not sure how what another player did in another game has any relevance. I find it just as likely for town to suspect their attacker as mafia.

3. What are you talking about regarding "Nosferatu's 8:40 thing?" If it is the fact that one of his classes start at 8:40 and he had to leave specifically at that time, it certainly wasn't obvious to me considering I don't know him or his schedule. It seemed like he posted just after being called out by MagnaOfIllusion, then denied that he was, then stated that he didn't read anything after 8:40 which conveniently seemed like a time just before he was called out. I needed him to explain how that happened. How was it obvious to you?

4. I think Lowell is town now but I found his early push on KTthecreeper and responses pretty bad. I think it's unreasonable for Lowell to expect KTthecreeper to respond to all RVS votes rather than just ones on himself.

1. Yeah, I understood all sides of the discussion between acryon and magna. I do think that the first argument about the self-contradiction is exactly how magna would read it though.

2. How people treat people in games goes to mindset and it is absolutely useful and relevant to note. People create scumtells and how scum or town are more likely to react

based on how scum and town have reacted in previous games

. I'm pretty sure you know that.

3. Yeah, I thought that was pretty obvious. I don't know Nosferatu's schedule either, but when she said it couldn't have been after 8:40 or whatever she said, I immediately thought oh that was the time she went to work, school, whatever, and thought it was really obvious. Part of my point there was the you getting after Magna for something you thought was obvious felt off when there was a really obvious thing to me that you were pushing and didn't understand immediately. In part this just goes to show that what is obvious for one person is not at all obvious to another.

4. I thought Lowell's early thing with KT was just an early game push meant to do something/look like he was doing something or get a reaction/read out of KT. I didn't for one second think he was actually pushing a case he strongly believed in in the first two pages of the game that he thought would gain much traction. I thought his fake day kill thing on you was him expressing frustration that you had walked through his attempt to get a read.

[Imperium]

I'm still fine with a Church lynch. I get jaded and whatever. But ABR not actually having a scum read or trying to get a scum read lynched is just so far from any time I've seen him as town it's not funny. This is how I've seen him as scum multiple times though.

Oh, if they do claim something, please don't counterclaim them. If they actually had a role they'd have claimed by now. They wouldn't say that we can win the game without them, and they definitely wouldn't let themselves hover until deadline as the lynch du jour.

[Imperium]

I need to get really caught up in the game and flesh out some other reads. I'd eat a hat or a shoe or something if Magna was scum cuz this just isn't his scum game. So, that's one I feel pretty good about. I remember also liking Ollie, Acryon, Nosferatu and was coming around on Ocean Wind. I'm hoping to be caught up with life by the end of the weekend, so I should be able to be around more after that, though Nacho's got this and we haven't had any big disagreements on reads as of yet, so hopefully that's promising

[Imperium]

My initial impression is that derailing the CoM wagon to lynch Snarky is stupid; I've had decently strong scum reads on both slots for a while now, they are now shaping up as counter wagons and are still not cross voting (instead, they are both pushing a third target).

I haven't caught up yet (but will today), so this opinion isn't overly informed, but just wanted to get it out there.

[Imperium]

@Imperium -

You say that you expect MagnaOfIllusion to react exactly as he did to the low-hanging fruit argument. In your mind, does this also apply to Bellaphant? It's pretty clear to me what Acryon was arguing and it apparently is to you as well. What do you make of Bellaphant's post here (the segment I quoted above)?

Not sure. With Magna, I think it's pretty apparent early on what types of things he picks up on, but that was something I especially consider a Magna thing to push and question because I played a fair amount with him the first year I joined here before he went on his hiatus. My only real experience with Bella is replacing her in Bees where she was being very widely scum read, mostly for following what other people were doing and being swayed by others too easily (I'm going off memory here. I need to review that game to refresh her play style.) When I replaced her I was able to figure out the type of player she was and explained what I believed her motivations were, and later Bella messaged me and told me I had hit the nail on the head, which is the reference to me soul reading her. If I'm remembering correctly, I can see her seeing an argument by a strong player and thinking it makes sense.

But quite frankly, I haven't really had a chance to dig into this game the way I'd like to and won't be able to before this day phase ends. Nacho has her as his third possible scum read and I've just gone mhm as she's not a pressing concern for today. So, I'd like to actually push this conversation to tomorrow when I can get a better grasp of the game and reread Bees and what I thought about her approach to the game. If for some reason we don't awake, the game in reference is in Little Italy and is Bees moderated by Marquis.

[Imperium]

I don't understand why anyone would use cases they don't believe in to "get the game going." I don't RVS vote ever. My first post is usually a vote for the person that I find scummiest based on posts so far, and then I change it whenever someone new does something even scummier and so on. Low information doesn't mean you "clown around" and say things you don't actually believe.

Well this is a matter of play style. The great thing about mafia is that it's made up of humans who have varying approaches and there is no right way. If you expect people to do things your way, you're probably going to be frustrated and not understand things a lot. But that's not really germane to reading each other. If there was something else in this response you wanted me to respond to let me know, otherwise I'd like to get through as much as I can in my limited time right now.

[Imperium]

Hey Snarky what alignment do you prefer by the way?

[Imperium]

So, here's the thing. Snarky is pretty much lynchbait but he's actually doing stuff here from which he might be able to be read. I'm really not interested in moving from a pretty definite scum read to someone who I'm reading as a lesser scum read but might actually be town because people want to go off associatives with him.

[Imperium]

Hey killthestory mind moving your vote to somewhere it's actually useful. It's doing nothing at all on Jim.

[Imperium]

That goes for you too Ollie.

[Imperium]

I don't love any of the "content" posts, but I particularly dislike this one:

Why is that?
While I think the conclusion and logic is a little off the rails, I don't think that there's any reason why he would push that as scum unless he was really hurting for some fake content; none of those players are in particular danger of being lynched hence no opportunism. I can understand why a player would be skeptical of a block of players town reading each other (even though they aren't really doing that, but can't see scum motivation for faking that understanding).

3. Ok, I didn't explain this well: reading through the game as a whole I found myself not agreeing with magna's points, but when I looked at them in iso I saw a tonne of thought progression and engagement - a lot of the time I look at whether I can see a sustained thought process, rather than if I directly agree with it. The frustration with acron seemed real, 162 was good, they pushed me for follow up about kt

I liked this post from Bella - this is a fairly insightful post from her on Magna and I think it's probably indicative of a town approach; no, it's nothing huge or really significant and I'm having trouble forming the right words, but I think that the reasons she's town reading Magna for are good ones and I think that it's less likely she would come to the right conclusion if she was scum.

lowell continues to not impress.

And, oddly enough, I agree with this. Lowell was a town read of mine early game, but since then he's faded into the deep dark nothingness and is starting to play exactly like I expected his scum game to look like. I like this observation as well!

dude what a bunch of bad scumreads and shit compiled into two pages

makes me cringe

It's because you haven't been posting enough lately! Sheep go crazy without their shepherd.

Imperium I feel acted weird about your slot. He jumped on it pretty quick. Like he voted you, but apparantly found nothing scummy about the exchange with bella. Just thought it was "worthy of observation".

You haven't misrepresented my early vote on Ollie, but I'm not really getting why this is something you find scummy. It was very early in the game; of course I'm not going to be convinced that I caught scum with the first vote that I made.

@Imperium which posts are from who, you guys haven't been signing and I haven't played with either of you enough to know your posting behaviours.

In that case, you don't need to know who is who.

[Imperium]

you're killin it

[Imperium]

although zooming in on the nostril would probably be better

[Imperium]

Hey Snarky - Severa's not happening. Join the cool kids on Church, yeah?

[Imperium]

Hey Snarky what alignment do you prefer by the way?

Town or 3p in a single scumteam game, scum in a multiball. But I'm pretty sure that doesn't matter?

Probably not. You're just throwing me off by doing stuff and actually posting. I wondered if it could be that you preferred scum.

[Imperium]

I'm incredibly skeptical of SnarkySnowman putting me as sole confirmed scum with current levels of content from my slot.

Feels like an attempt to generate a counterwagon. CoM flips scum that's my first priority.

And if CoM is town, it is an attempt to generate a counter wagon that makes absolutely no sense.
Why vote Snarky first?

@Imperium which posts are from who, you guys haven't been signing and I haven't played with either of you enough to know your posting behaviours.

We don't sign our posts, but what would knowing whose posts are whose do for your ability to read us?

It's hard reading read progression of hydras when I don't know who is who.

Where in our read progression are you having trouble? Both heads have very different styles and approach the game in very different ways, so it should be especially easy to differentiate us if you're looking through our read progressions.

For someone who apparently read twenty-odd pages, he seems content to drop a list of reads, said he'd get back on ChurchOfMercy and hasn't posted since.

Have you done any research into Snowman's meta? Machina Mafia was likely the townies game he has ever played, and it wasn't very dissimilar from this game.

It doesn't make sense. If it was a pressure vote, why call for lowell to join in? Or alternatively, why not ask him the question along with your vote, not almost 200 posts later? And if my point was good, it would mean he thought it was scummy or what? Just agh.

It was a pressure vote. Why not call for Lowell to join in?
I thought the question was implied when I quoted a post bringing that question up and calling it a good point. I asked the question later when he didn't answer it. If your point was good, it meant I thought it was a good observation as in could have been indicative of scum. I didn't have a bunch of faith in it because it was a page 1 read.

Yeah actually.

VOTE: Snarky

I

do

think that CoM is going to flip scum but this is a much more interesting wagon.

No, it's a horseshit wagon on lynchbait that could be scum, could be town.
CoM is very very likely scum thanks to Albert's play alone; Klingon's has been individually scummy in its own special snowflake way.

Severa is also really obviously town based on the last several posts. ChurchOfMercy could potentially be town considering how SnarkySnowman is hedging there - not exactly voting him but also saying one of Severa/ChurchOfMercy is mafia. The way Bellaphant hopped on there also makes me rethink that slot.

What?
You think that Snarky as scum saw a perfectly viable mislynch and instead of just cashing in on it (because everyone agreed with it), he instead decided to make a push on Severa, who a majority of town players were town reading?

No. This is not how scum behave. If Snarky is scum, he is scum with CoM.

I am sorry for being cranky and brief at the moment, but I'm tired and not lynching CoM here would be the epitome of idiocy.

[Imperium]

Is that Albert posting?

No. Albert is not posting because they are scum, and he hates posting when scum.

[Imperium]

I'm still not feeling CoM as scum. Sorry

and for that, you will no longer be my brother in this game.
i am also sorry.

[Imperium]

instead of doing that, just try to figure out what happened to your swag

[Imperium]

no sarcasm, i genuinely liked your early play and pushes earlier today; I thought that you were aggressive as hell and also right as hell and was still picking up on decent things until you had that I THINK COM IS TOWN and then other reads i didn't like meltdown. if you're around and i'm gone tomorrow, bring the old killthestory back.

[Imperium]

Xisiq, while I type up a case on CoM, let's talk about why you're voting Snarky!

[Imperium]

Based on his response to SnarkySnowman's case, yeah. I know you think Severa is mafia but look at SnarkySnowman's case on him and how he positioned himself to "compromise" on you. The case is complete nonsense. His not taking a position on you probably means he thinks your lynch is achievable without his support. So, the following day, he can look like he has his hands clean and continue pushing Severa. The "association" is crap as well. Once you flip town, he'll simply go back to "oh, it was Severa all along, not ChurchOfMercy."

Why wouldn't he just vote on the Church wagon though, especially as he's stated that he's not town reading them? His hands wouldn't be dirty anyway as he's not the main pusher of that wagon. He could very easily follow along with the crowd today and not look bad.

I generally hate the "you're talking to someone like they're town" thing but it feels like you're talking to church like they're town and I feel kinda stupid bringing this up especially as I can't really see a world where Church is town, but if I don't note this it's going to drive me crazy.

pedit: Nacho already said what I wanted in the first paragraph but better...as usual.

[Imperium]

ABR, get in here and help me kill some newbs.

Klingon here, not ABR, but yeah, that was bad.

VOTE: KTthecreeper


OceanWind's defense of KT is pretty scumtastic.

Remember this post?
This post was terrible. Klingon sided with Lowell without giving any sort of reason and criticized OW's defense of KT also without any reason. When questioned on why Klingon felt that way about those specific posts, she answered:

My big problem with your side of the hydra is mostly how you opened the game; why did you agree with Lowell's case on KTthecreeper?

KT overreacted to the RVS vote. Not a good look.

Her read on KT 300 posts later:

KTthecreeper - Oh. He's actually low-hanging fruit, then? Lean Town.

This isn't how a town thought process works. There is no way in hell that she goes "oh, KT is scum because he overreacted. OceanWind's post sucks because KT overreacted. Oh, KT is low-hanging fruit? He is town!"

[Imperium]

We're actually scum. You've been right this entire time. We did what we could for the slot and you still caught us like a boss. You guys are really good players. I will be nomming for best town.

Klingon and I are very impressed by how effective this town's collective scumhunting ability is.

Well done.

I look forward to playing with you all again, hopefully on the same side.

Albert

This, for those of you who know him and have had the pleasure of playing with him, is not town ABR. Town ABR is called Illogical Rampage because he is an aggressive, in your face player. There are many times when he's just tired of playing scum and decides to step back from a game completely because he doesn't want to play scum; this is what it looks like when he does. Town ABR doesn't feel pressured by tiny pieces of pressure early game because he knows he can crush it in an instant. Scum ABR throws out emotional appeals and crap like this because he knows he has to dig out of a deep hole; he can't bring the aggression and passion as scum and so he does cutesy stupid things instead.

[Imperium]

Is that Albert posting?

No. Albert is not posting because they are scum, and he hates posting when scum.

He's not in the hydra thread, either. NAI. I could say why I think he's not posting, but there's that pesky Ongoing Games Rule...

This is stupid. He's already said he's dating and that's why. He's not alive in any other games.

Having an off game is one thing, but doing absolutely no scum hunting when that's your main trait as town and your main trait as scum is that you hate scum and have a hard time posting is another thing.

You being completely scummy and useless and claiming we're going to look so bad when you flip town doesn't make your slot look any better.

[Imperium]

Don't think so.

[Imperium]

he was at L-3. now he is at L-2.

[Imperium]

Sometimes I wonder if I'll ever make it
But there's only way Imma know
I'm like a seed planted in the dirt
Feels like I been waiting forever to grow
And maybe today is the day
And maybe tonight is the night
But one thing that I know for sure
This time Imma get it right

VOTE: KT

What the hell is this?

This is supposed to be ABR's version of scum hunting?
If he's placing a vote, there should be some vague process of "I think this player is scummy because" but there isn't because he's just trolling around because he doesn't do jack shit as scum.

[Imperium]

The jmo stuff I completely agree with. I hated his posting and his scum read on lowell for calling someone town too early without digging or explaining why that particular town read was given too early and why. There was no scum hunting beyond that and him signing up for another game while replacing out of this one is alarming.

Snarky's posting is looking similar to machina though where he defended scum day one and got mislynched day two even though we tried to defend him.

[Imperium]

We're actually scum. You've been right this entire time. We did what we could for the slot and you still caught us like a boss. You guys are really good players. I will be nomming for best town.

Klingon and I are very impressed by how effective this town's collective scumhunting ability is.

Well done.

I look forward to playing with you all again, hopefully on the same side.

Albert

This, for those of you who know him and have had the pleasure of playing with him, is not town ABR. Town ABR is called Illogical Rampage because he is an aggressive, in your face player. There are many times when he's just tired of playing scum and decides to step back from a game completely because he doesn't want to play scum; this is what it looks like when he does. Town ABR doesn't feel pressured by tiny pieces of pressure early game because he knows he can crush it in an instant. Scum ABR throws out emotional appeals and crap like this because he knows he has to dig out of a deep hole; he can't bring the aggression and passion as scum and so he does cutesy stupid things instead.

ABR isn't in this game. I am.
Or is the ABR angle the excuse you plan on using because you know damn well that this is a mislynch?

No, ChurchofMercy (a hydra of ABR and Klingoncelt) is in the game.
You can keep acting like the only person I'm attacking is ABR but I keep posting things that I don't like about your play and you keep ignoring me like it's your job.

[Imperium]

he was at L-3. now he is at L-2.

SHE. Goddamn, if you're turbo-mislynching me at least have the courtesy of getting my pronoun right.

Sorry.

[Imperium]

Your reaction being to vote someone who has not even showed up. The second, is that when you voted this slot you ignored the other slot that had yet to post altogether. The third, is that there has been no push whatsoever on me, yet you are stating there was some resistance to it? How can there be resistance to a non-existent push?

It's pretty clear you have no experience playing with your predecessor KAIN TEPES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I, on the other hand, have been in some games with him.

Kling

Remember that Kling claimed that Kain Tepes was scum because there was resistance to the push on him.
Does she address how the hell there could be resistance to a push that didn't exist? Nope!

[Imperium]

The jmo stuff I completely agree with. I hated his posting and his scum read on lowell for calling someone town too early without digging or explaining why that particular town read was given too early and why. There was no scum hunting beyond that and him signing up for another game while replacing out of this one is alarming.

Snarky's posting is looking similar to machina though where he defended scum day one and got mislynched day two even though we tried to defend him.

So what is your opinion on the slot's alignment? If CoM flips town, does that answer change?

Can we talk about Church of Mercy at the moment? I'm not sure how a playerslot could become scummier than they are now; what about them do you find vaguely town?

[Imperium]

You say as you ignore a post by my attacking you.

[Imperium]

Can you guys just hammer her. She's doing nothing but creating noise just like she's been doing for the entirety of the day.

[Imperium]

The jmo stuff I completely agree with. I hated his posting and his scum read on lowell for calling someone town too early without digging or explaining why that particular town read was given too early and why. There was no scum hunting beyond that and him signing up for another game while replacing out of this one is alarming.

Snarky's posting is looking similar to machina though where he defended scum day one and got mislynched day two even though we tried to defend him.

So what is your opinion on the slot's alignment? If CoM flips town, does that answer change?

Not sure. If CoM somehow flips town, I'll reassess quite a bit.

[Imperium]

Can we talk about Church of Mercy at the moment? I'm not sure how a playerslot could become scummier than they are now; what about them do you find vaguely town?

You're going to have a lot of explaining to do if we die.

Just so you know with the amount of pure unadulterated bullshit that hasn't been doing shit for the game, if you somehow flip town. Absolutely none, not one tiny little tear will be shed here.

[Imperium]

*coming from you.

I would fuck up my grammar. :/

[Imperium]

I don't, that's why I had my vote on CoM. However, I would much rather get my preferred lynch today.

Then sell me on it. Your case on Snarky is that his predecessor looked like lurking scum and that Snarky's play has been survivalistic.
Explain to me why, if Snarky was scum, his push on Severa was "just playing for survival" if CoM was town.

[Imperium]

Let's not end the day just yet please. I want to see Jim either back and posting or for his replacement to catch up and take stances. Assuming Jim gets replaced, the mod would have to freeze or extend the deadline. Just to confirm

@Mod -

can we have the deadline extended in case Jim doesn't show up.

Do you still want to lynch Snarky over CoM?

[Imperium]

I don't, that's why I had my vote on CoM. However, I would much rather get my preferred lynch today.

Then sell me on it. Your case on Snarky is that his predecessor looked like lurking scum and that Snarky's play has been survivalistic.
Explain to me why, if Snarky was scum, his push on Severa was "just playing for survival" if CoM was town.

I can see the SnarkySnowman slot as town.

I can see jmo as a lurk sack new player who got behind and then never caught up, and SnarkySnowman doing his SnarkySnowman thing. I can't see CoM as town.

[Imperium]

And you're conflicted on Church? Why?

[Imperium]

I want everyone to note that Church is acting like everyone voting her is scum. She's trying to pull a sort of intimidating ate in which she claims we're all going to have some explaining to do when she flips town as if she's not an experienced player who knows damn well mislynches happen as a matter of sort. She's throwing mud at a everyone voting her in an attempt to get us off of her but isn't actually talking about who the scum is on her wagon. And even though she's complained that we've been talking about ABR, when Nacho points out a problem he has with her play in particular she ignores it.

This is scum creating noise trying to guilt people into getting off her wagon.

[Imperium]

Jim is almost definitely getting replaced by the way. He hasn't logged into the site since Sunday and has recently been replaced in another game.

[Imperium]

Can you elaborate on what you think of Snarky's attitude towards ChurchOfMercy?

At this moment, it reads like very clear and transparent scum play to try to avoid lynching a partner.
On the other hand, I can see a very strong possibility that it's just town deciding to push a ridiculous lynch out of nowhere.

I can at least somewhat follow his reason for being weird on Church (the lots of associatives bit is because literally everyone is pushing them), and I understand why he would think that Church/Severa are different alignments.

[Imperium]

Xisiq, still waiting for you to come out and play.

[Imperium]

Oh also Kling's bella push was also trash. She's trying to claim enough meta experience with her that if she's not posting she's scum and if she replaces out she's scum, but I've seen bella replace out of two games as town. (And in mafiaception, she didn't post much iirc before replacing out.) Literally the only thing she posted was that if she replaces out she's scum, but then mentions she's posting more than she's used to.

Then, she's definitely one of their scum reads.

[Imperium]

Okay. I am posting out of frustration.

[Imperium]

Fuck me, I did not want a deadline extension.

[Imperium]

What is frustrating me is that there is literally no reason that anyone is posting to lynch Snarky over CoM is because you think that CoM not partners with Snarky. No one is offering any reason why CoM might be town because CoM's ISO is a wealth of scum posting, and nothing more. The case on Snarky is not as significant as the case on CoM because both heads of CoM have been posting nothing but nonsense reads, nonsense stance changes, and the "oh you'll regret it when I flip town!" spam the entire game. They have shown no interest in scum hunting. They have been playing to their scum meta. Nothing they are saying sounds vaguely town.

People seem to agree on this. No one can give a town case or a possibly town case on CoM. But no, the case on Snarky is better even though Snarky has all of 12 posts and his predecessor didn't do jack shit.

[Imperium]

So, here's Snarky's first content post in the game:

Here's a readlist.

Town {MagnaofIllusion, Oceanwind, Ollie}
Townlean {Bellephant, Jim, acryon, Killthestory}
Scumlean {Lowell, Imperium, Nosferatu, ChurchofMercy}
Scum {Severa}

ChurchofMercy is interesting, because I see a lot of associatives with them (and a lot of info to be gained from that lynch), but I don't necessarily think they're scum, so I'd like to consider. Let me read that one a little more thoroughly.

Severa, on the other hand, has done almost nothing and I feel like that's a particularly worthy lynch, if we run up against it. Also, UNVOTE:

a. The only reason he has for Severa being mafia is "doing almost nothing" which is pretty weak for twenty pages of content read.

Why is it unreasonable for someone to think a slot is scum when there is literally nothing there?

b. Doesn't vote Severa here (wants others to make the first move).

Why does he have to vote Severa there? He had just replaced into the game, barely read and provided a reads list. Not everyone votes right away. Hell, I've called for wagons and called people scum and not voted until hours before deadline before. As town. He's also not the only person in this game not voting for who they think is scum. (Ollie by the way, in one of his last posts has Nosferatu leaning town and still has his vote on Nos. Have you pointed this out or questioned it? If not, why not?)

Why are you creating a narrative here? I hate your parenthesis crap as it looks like you trying to create a narrative for what he is doing rather than read the game for what is happening.

c. Sees a lot of "associatives" with ChurchOfMercy. Doesn't explain what these are. Doesn't explain any of his reads despite being asked twice. Claims he wants to read "more thoroughly" but don't necessarily think they are scum. This is the hedging that I'm talking about. ChurchOfMercy is all but a default lynch for the day and he's refusing to take a stance and commit to a position. By the way, he never followed up on the "more thorough read." His wording here (info-lynch) also suggests that he doesn't want responsibility for the townflip. Mafia don't call their partners lynches "info-lynches." Especially not newbie-type mafia like Snarky-Snowman.

I find the hedging argument on day one to hit town far more often than scum. He doesn't need to hedge on CoM. In the position that Snarky is scum and CoM is town, CoM is the default lynch for the day. Why can't he sneak the hell on there. There are several stronger players than him here that he could easily use as cover. And he chooses to hedge? For what reason? He said he's not town reading them and has them as a scum lean. How exactly is that hedging. And why can't he be town going off in his own direction? A lot of people never follow up on their reads and often don't answer questions asked of them, it doesn't make them scum unless there's a reason you can see they aren't answering the questions.

People use info-lynch all the time. And if he doesn't want to take responsibility for a CoM town flip, then what the hell is he doing on Severa who you think is obviously town because if that one were to be swayed it would be on him whereas CoM isn't on him at all. Not even a tiny little bit is a CoM town flip on him. As far as what mafia would and wouldn't do with their partners, meh.

Have you meta'd Snarky?

VOTE: Severa

A lot of people call him out for his lack of vote so he puts a vote on Severa. By the way, this doesn't make sense with his earlier stance that he'd vote Severa if a wagon forms since only one vote was on Severa. It looks more like he buckled under pressure and cast a vote.[/quote]

I hate this reason for scum reading people every time it's made. Sometimes people do go ahead and vote when they're called out on it and I've seen town do it a bunch. (The only game I can think of off the top of my head though is Bellaphant in Bees.)

This is really weak, and quite frankly I'd expect better of you from this entire case.

[Imperium]

And we don't really need Jim to make stances in order to read the game. The replacement can just as easily read the game in night and make whatever stances tomorrow. We can have lynched scum and enjoy our weekend in peace, but nooooooooooooooo you guys are letting noise and an awkward lynchbait who can be sorted later detract you from the fact that we have scum on a platter.

This day's gone on long enough.

[Imperium]

Second:
SnarkySnowman, Vanilla Townie, Lynched Day 2
SnarkySnowman, Vanilla Townie, Lynched Day 3
SnarkySnowman, Athenian Mason, Killed Night 1 (because he was wagoned Day 1)
SnarkySnowman, Hated Townie, Lynched Day 3
SnarkySnwoman, ???, Killed N1 (was vigged, question marks were due to his role)

Snarky gets mislynched/immediately vigged a lot. Constantly, in fact. Am I going to abandon a wagon that I feel very confident in and are familiar with both player's styles and can tell you that this looks absolutely nothing like their town games because Snarky doesn't have a strong case behind the counter wagon that he's pushing? No. And you shouldn't want to abandon this wagon for that Snarky case either.

[Imperium]

Explain to me why, if Snarky was scum, his push on Severa was "just playing for survival" if CoM was town.

The vote wasn't placed until #603, after I called out the non-voting in my #534.

Why is that scum?

The later innovations of #613:

Spoiler:

I am fine with a ChurchOfMercy lynch today.

I'm diffident about whether to read through for other scumreads as well before seeing the flip.

Complacency isn't necessarily a scumread, but this gave me bad vibes.

See, even the fact that you called out Acryon instead of me is tellling.
I can imagine this level of passive aggressiveness but I'd expect that the one you'd be calling out is the one who told you you're full of shit because I'd be the one antagonizing you here.
This is making a show, not your actual feelings.

VOTE: ChurchOfMercy

This felt pretty bad, for a lot of reasons. Actually, on re-read, ChurchofMercy's response in 338 and 339 is pretty shit, too.

Why do you talk like you think you're god's gift to scumhunting?
I'll give you a little hint: you're not.
I will not be unvoting CoM today unless something big happens.

This, directed at Kts, feels like it's meant to be de-railing to one of the most thorough cases (against Bella) that I've seen Kts make.

Ha!?
I am not scum!

Church's reactions were incredibly off and their AtE rang insincere. I'm lynching them.

I will read Bella for you though!

While I'm in agreement that Church's reactions were fairly scummy, I'm curious as to your thought on Bella, since you've ignored that. How do you read them at the moment?

I'm incredibly skeptical of SnarkySnowman putting me as sole confirmed scum with current levels of content from my slot.

Feels like an attempt to generate a counterwagon. CoM flips scum that's my first priority.

The motivation behind all your posts feels forced in context. And this, saying you're skeptical of me putting you as my only scumread (as opposed to scumlean), feels like you're upset that I caught you for the wrong reason.

Keep in mind, I'm not exactly townreading CoM.

VOTE: SnarkySnowman

I still believe that CoM is scum on principle but I'm near positive that this is scum.
He has no justification for having me as sole scumread. If he wants to say 'Severa needs to post more, useless slot, lurksack', etc.? Say that forever.
But for me to be his #1 scumread is fucking bunk.

I don't like his stance on the CoM wagon either. I feel like he's either scum with them or he's scum trying to position for a push on me tomorrow after their flip.
Either way, I'm prioritizing this over CoM.

Is this the "something big" you were referring to? Again, feels OMGUS-y more than convinced.

I have justification - you've posted very little, you've derailed what I think was a possible route of discussion, which I think would have been productive, and you've avoided giving opinion on anyone other than CoM and now myself, as far as alignment goes. Plus, I see the associative between you and CoM forming, and I think that I could get some information out of your lynch, which I think is more likely to be scum than CoM's.

Came about directly after being voted by Severa. It seems almost entirely defensive to me.

How is it defensive and why does defensive mean scum?

[Imperium]

a. The only reason he has for Severa being mafia is "doing almost nothing" which is pretty weak for twenty pages of content read.

Yes, it is pretty weak post for twenty pages of content read. However, some players have this sort of play style where they don't really explain their reads that much (see: Severa). This means that their reads, regardless of alignment, are shallow because they don't read that closely.

b. Doesn't vote Severa here (wants others to make the first move).

So, he just replaced into the game. And because he doesn't vote Severa, he's scum expecting others to make the first move?

My first problem with this is that it's an unreasonable expectation to make; I don't think it's unreasonable for him to be voting no one for the first few posts he has in the game in case he wants to do some additional reading or see people react first. I don't think he has a full comprehension of the game state in 20 minutes of reading.

My second problem with this is that your scum narrative here is that he believes that the CoM wagon is going to go through so decides to push a mislynch to set up later. He's not expecting people to pave the way for Severa for him, he's expecting people to tell him that CoM is the only acceptable lynch for today. Why not vote Severa?

c. Sees a lot of "associatives" with ChurchOfMercy. Doesn't explain what these are. Doesn't explain any of his reads despite being asked twice. Claims he wants to read "more thoroughly" but don't necessarily think they are scum. This is the hedging that I'm talking about. ChurchOfMercy is all but a default lynch for the day and he's refusing to take a stance and commit to a position. By the way, he never followed up on the "more thorough read." His wording here (info-lynch) also suggests that he doesn't want responsibility for the townflip. Mafia don't call their partners lynches "info-lynches." Especially not newbie-type mafia like Snarky-Snowman.

Him not explaining things is annoying as hell, yes, I agree. Like how Klingon doesn't explain any of the many many different and opposite stances that she's taken this game and how she doesn't explain why she finds things scummy even after she just got done complaining how all I'm doing is attacking her hydra partner.

I think what Snarky did with regards to Church of Mercy is a pure hedge, yes. This is not a good move to do regardless of alignment; I don't understand why you say that newb-scum wouldn't say that their partner's lynch had information (if he said he was lynching CoM for information, that would be an abnormal bus and thus would be an unlikely interaction. Saying nothing alignment indicative about your partner is new-scum 101).

Also, if he's expecting CoM to be the default lynch of the day and doesn't think that he needs to vote them, why doesn't he just... call them town? It gives him credit for the lynch, and he's expecting the lynch to go through without his vote, right?

A lot of people call him out for his lack of vote so he puts a vote on Severa. By the way, this doesn't make sense with his earlier stance that he'd vote Severa if a wagon forms since only one vote was on Severa. It looks more like he buckled under pressure and cast a vote.

This is not such a strong tell since his last post meant that Severa was the only logical place his vote could go. He didn't say that he'd only vote Severa if a wagon formed, so I'm not sure what your second point is.

Killthestory basically said "we're lynching Bellaphant today" here. She didn't make a "case" much less a thorough one. This is bullshit.

Sure, this is objectively wrong.

Like Klingon saying I've done nothing but attack ABR.
Or Klingon saying that Bella replacing out of a game is a scum tell.
Or Klingon saying that Kain Tepes flaking out of this game was a scum tell.
Or Klingon claiming that she's not confident as town on Day 1 while proclaiming Kain Tepes and Bella very obviously scum.

Why should I be lynching Snarky (a molehill of bullshit) over CoM (a mountain of bullshit)?

[Imperium]

As Scum I'd be making lots more noise from the get-go.

And what, exactly is she doing right now except for making noise? She's not addressing the cases against her.
She's not scumhunting.

What is she doing?

(sorry, this had nothing to do with your case on snarky!!)

[Imperium]

The vote wasn't placed until #603, after I called out the non-voting in my #534.

This doesn't explain why that was a survival vote. Why would he hedge suspicion on Severa instead of on CoM if CoM was town? If your answer is "because he thought that the CoM wagon was going through without his help", please see my previous wall to OceanWind.

Came about directly after being voted by Severa. It seems almost entirely defensive to me.

Sure, it could be defensive. It could also be because he just called out someone for being scum and their response was to vote him for suspecting them.

[Imperium]

And it feels like you don't even understand why I'm skeptical and frustrated with your response. Do you really not see why I'm not completely convinced to jump off the CoM wagon because you tell me that Snarky voted after you said he wasn't voted and that he cased Severa after she voted him? Do you really think those two things are such gotcha tells that fuck that, he has to die today? Why?

[Imperium]

I'm starting to see the Ollie case, if for no other reason than his growing frustration that no one else is voting for obvtown killthestory like he wants us to. And yes, Ollie, I do normally sheep ABR. Because it's fun. You got a problem?

I have new leader now, though, and his name is killthestory. Obvtown. VOTE: CoM I tend to think team CoM would be having a little more fun were they down. I'm getting a bit of the deflated-after-receiving-scum-role vibe from them. Which I feel is especially pronounced in hydras.

How is Kill obvtown? Obvtroll, yes. There's been how much work from that slot? None.

I was sorta over-committed with the games, I was in 8. I'm down to 6 now, so I can focus better.

As Scum I'd be making lots more noise from the get-go.

How isn't what she's done the entire game not been noise, exactly what she said she'd be doing as scum?

Also, can someone tell me how her play this game and the weird intimidating "you're going to have a lot of explaining to do...you'll look so bad" bullshit makes any sense with this:

Subject: Mini 1696: SPACE DANDY MAFIA, GAME OVER

I just voted for Zakk, because he gave the lamest stock/fluff reads ever on my posts followed by a bad vote.

I'm Town, just so ya know.

You are town really? lol, would you tell us if you weren't

Interesting question. Probably not, because while it's okay to claim Town (as Town), claiming Scum (as Scum) is considered game-throwing.

Anyway, players love to read me as Scum on Day 1 when I'm Town. I get mislynched lots. Funny thing, as Scum I usually fly under the radar for several Days.

If she gets mislynched lots as she says, then why the ate bullshit? There should be frustration along the lines of being scum read yet again when town, not the response to being scum read she's gotten? This also doesn't mesh with her claim that as scum she'd be creating noise since she claims here she flies below the radar.

I also would encourage anyone concerned about their read on her to follow that game or read Tarot Card to see what her town game looks like. No, she's not a strong town player. Yes, she gets scum read for some oddities, but you'll also notice some important things lacking.

And that doesn't even account for ABR's nonexistence in the game and not pushing a scum read at all. All he did was give flimsy limpwristed votes with no oomph whatsoever and sneer at people for scum reading him. And he knows that I'll defend him if I get a town read on him so none of his play makes any sense at all.

[Imperium]

Read on my slot Nacho. go.

I'm not nacho but I'll call you town if you vote for Church

[Imperium]

Read on my slot Nacho. go.

Why is Snarky a better lynch than CoM?

[Imperium]

And for the record, this is a reach out of the "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" flavor considering I deleted two snarky answers before arriving at this one.

[Imperium]

Because I'm 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt certain that Snarky is scum and the same is not true of CoM.
Why weren't you this energetic in 1672 huh?

Ehh, I could be persuaded.

Oh you're referring to me?

If so, I'm pretty sure I know who you are. Shouldn't have replaced into that game when I didn't have time to play.

[Imperium]

Because I'm 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt certain that Snarky is scum and the same is not true of CoM.

I could help you with this if you could tell me what you possibly see town in CoM.

[Imperium]

Tammy I'm sorry I failed my duties as a brother : (

It's okay! (You only failed Nacho though.)

[Imperium]

I would need a guarantee that my desired SS lynching back scratching will be provided if I vote CoM though.

And see, this is simple. Because no one is calling SS town on a CoM scum flip because my camp hasn't lost their mind.

[Imperium]

I do.

[Imperium]

Snarky does not have a scum game.

[Imperium]

Never mind found one.

[Imperium]

2. You keep implying that if there's a near guaranteed mislynch, mafia would definitely hop on rather than hesitate to join the wagon or create counterwagons so that they can push the following day. A mafia player's dream ending to day one is two town counterwagons because the next day, the people who didn't get their lynch will push that wagon. You are acting like their only option is to hop onto that certain mislynch and I don't agree with that even remotely.

You're assuming that newb-scum would be thinking that far ahead, which is very likely not the case.

3. If he pushes Severa and somehow manages to swing the votes, chances are people are going to go back to ChurchOfMercy the following day. An unexpected lynch usually results in the previous days suspicions being continued. But if he pushes Severa and fails, a) people will likely look at the ChurchOfMercy mislynch wagon (assuming they are town) for mafia letting him evade suspicion. b) He can simply continue the push the following day. I think if he made a late hop onto the Church wagon, people would likely find it scummy and he's self-conscious about that.

See above. He has not been mafia that often and really hasn't

played

a lot, so I think assuming sophisticated scum thought processes like

if I manage to push a failed wagon, then I can set it up as a scum counter wagon tomorrow

as a process that is not one that is likely for Snarky to have.

He said a ChurchOfMercy lynch would yield information. That looks like he's setting up to "compromise" on them if it is needed. That would also be the reason why he has them as a leaning scumread as opposed to a townread. He wants to leave open the option to vote them if it comes down to it.

And this could be true regardless of CoM's alignment, no?

[Imperium]

I didn't even know snarky had so many games until now. Haven't been outside of large themes in a while I guess.

I just feel a lot more confident and better about getting a church lynch. I can't see how they're town and it would be worse for town if they stay alive with her doing nothing but creating noise and drowning out the game and making it harder to find her partners. Snarky is not going to be slippery or create the noise and is likelier to slip up.

[Imperium]

I do.

Why are you agreeing to lynch Snarky tomorrow if in your mind, he's lynchbait/you are not sure about your read on him?

When I say that I'm not sure about Snarky as compared to CoM, we are talking about 95% sure that a player is mafia versus 65% sure. I'm still perfectly happy lynching Snarky in normal circumstances because the slot is scummy as hell, but I'm not dismantling a wagon on a player I am extremely confident is scum to someone who is not so scum because they are doing things they do as town because they are lynchbait. I am doubly not dismantling a wagon on my top scumread to lynch my second one when the people leading the charge say that my second scumread probably isn't scum with my first.

[Imperium]

The honest answer is that I'm not sure; the time that was spent yelling about lynching CoM was originally supposed to be me giving my gamestate as a whole, figuring out who I was comfortable as town, etc.

At this point, Lowell is probably very easily my third, but past that there's Jim whose posting I sort of liked when he was around and then the group of players who I'm town reading but not confidently (and hence could probably see them as scum), which is the mass I'll sort out with our deadline extension.

[Imperium]

Lowell was the first person who brought up the possibility of ChurchOfMercy being mafia (who you claim to be 95% sure on). He was also the second vote on the wagon. Is he bussing?

Yes.

[Imperium]

Thank you! I prefer being able to be active and having reads I believe in. That's just been hit or miss lately, but I'm almost caught up in life so it should be more normal.

Though both of us have been posting tonight.

[Imperium]

This head, for one, thinks it's a silly question to ask in the first place. Yes, of course it's possible he was bussing and his focus was on his partner from early on, especially if it's a weak scum partner whom he knows is going to get scum read by people who know how to read him. He busses early and gets that nice little cred.

I do not believe you find that hard to believe.

But again, silly questions to ask pre-flip.

[Imperium]

What about those reads do you like and how come you don't consider his reads shallow like you think Bella's are?

[Imperium]

Wait. Are the things you really like and town read about him because his reads match yours? And what you don't like is where your reads deviate?

Oh boy.

[Imperium]

I have a hard time buying that considering most of his focus has been on ChurchOfMercy. Is there a past precedent you are using for this read?

I don't think that five posts saying "hey, I think CoM is scum" is significant. It doesn't take much effort or thought from Lowell as scum to so limpwristedly push his partner and there is nothing that is difficult to fake in his push on CoM. I don't like reading low-volume posters by "if they agree with my reads" or if I can see how they believe what they believe (because sometimes their reads don't make any sense). I thought his tone when he pushed other players was pretty decent, and I haven't seen a post by him that I overtly hate. However, I haven't really seen much that I disliked outside of the {CoM, Snarky} group and so he's the first person I want to follow-up on in depth.

Their townread on Bellaphant is shallow and the intense frustration over the SnarkySnowman wagon doesn't make sense when the latter was their second scumread.

The Bellaphant town read is shallow, yes. She has not been a major focus of mine. I saw something that I liked tonally and I brought it up. I'm not sure why this is an unreasonable read when I have been away from the thread a few days (and thus a bit disconnected from the game) and haven't exactly made rereading Bella a priority.

I also don't understand why you're having trouble with me having one strong scumread as a preference over another, much weaker scumread (even though it is my second scumread). For one, I'm unsure why you don't understand why I would prefer my first preference over my second; it's Day 1. I very strongly believe that I've caught scum on Day 1. I am not so arrogant of a player where I believe where my reads are so good that I can just lynch either of my top two scum reads and be guaranteed to hit scum. It should also be very clear that the gap in my scum reads on Snarky and Church are large: I've been pushing Church today non-stop since I began scum reading them. I have not said "hmmm maybe they are town". With JMO, I found his entrance scummy but several people disagreed with me, so I backed off a little bit. Enter Snarky, who I have experience with as a lynchbait type of player and hasn't done anything overtly horrible for him, and suddenly people back off ChurchofMercy to lynch my second scumread and claim that CoM is suddenly town if Snarky flips Mafia. There wouldn't have been intense frustration if the push on Snarky was reasonable, but it wasn't: I asked you to explain why you thought CoM was town, and the only thing you could come up with was that they were town based on an associative from Snarky and that was making you doubt your CoM read. If you actually addressed the case on CoM and explained why you didn't find it to be so strong, or if every time Xisiq responded he didn't post a very shallow analysis into SnarkySnowman's play and then nod and explain that he totally agreed with the CoM lynch, then there probably wouldn't have been any frustration at all. I never ran into a point in Classic where we had a wagon on a strong scumread of mine and suddenly it started breaking apart for nonsense reasons and had people refusing to engage me about it all around; what frustrates me in mafia is when I'm very confident in a point and have good evidence to back it up and people simply ignore it completely, which is what it felt like was happening yesterday.

I don't understand why, as mafia, you believe I would have such a strong preference of CoM over Snarky: your current argument is that I'm scum with Magna and we're addicted to bussing our lynchbait partner, but why would that equal frustration on my end when you were playing into our hands and creating a town counter wagon? Why not just damn you the next day after we got our CoM lynch without you?

I also don't like the overly aggressive posturing and it seems a lot different from the game I played with Nachomamma8 where he was a lot more diplomatic and had a "positive energy" for lack of a better word. Specifically the parts where they accused me of "creating a narrative" around Snarky, and the latest posts (807, 814). If Bellaphant and Snarky are mafia like I think, Imperium needs to be looked at.

The posts that you're referring to are not Nachomamma8's.
I think that you're probably having a knee-jerk reaction to us because of how aggressive we were with you last night, considering your latest posts seem trying to create a scum team around us as opposed to reading us honestly (I say this because of you accusing us of being scum with Bellaphant/Snarky in one breath and then CoM/Magna in another). I think that it would be more productive if you took a step back from the game, reread with our posts, and saw what major pushes you disagreed with and why; we've been aggressive, yes, but we've also been transparent, and your case as it stands right now is nitpicking at minor points as opposed to addressing the meat of the cases and core beliefs that we've put forth. I understand this probably won't be productive coming from someone who you are scum reading, but here I am trying anyways.

[Imperium]

Why is no one talking about how severa literally used bargaining to help setup lynches in advance?

From a mafia perspective, that's sealing 4 deaths ez money.

And from a town perspective, that's sealing the death of someone who you very strongly believe to be mafia ez money.
I don't find it significant.

[Imperium]

@com, does that mean you think kt is more likely to be town? Because if not, that seems like a weird vote when there's already a aagon.

Bella, I'm not really sure I understand where you're coming from with this. Klingon agreed with Lowell that Creeper's reaction was bad and joined the wagon on him. Why would you assume that it meant that Creeper was more likely to be town?

223 was here first content post and I didn't really find anything overtly unreasonable there - her read on Ollie pretty closely mirrored my own at that point (and the original reasoning for the "too cheeky to be scum" point was fine), the explanation of the "scum on the KT wagon" made sense, and I liked her vote on CoM.

Readslist post in 291:
Why were the posts that Nosferatu quoted "paying attention to detail" townish from them (particularly 178, 192)?
I thought the call-out of acyron's 164 for being a bunch of garbled nonsense was a completely reasonable call, considering he repeated and rephrased the same phrase in his responses to you and Magna (which is something that I missed earlier today, embarrassingly enough).
I didn't really have issues or followups with the rest of her reads; I thought her town read on OceanWind was shallow but understandable, disliked the jmo town read but that's more understandable now that I see a bunch of people who were sort of town reading jmo early game.

In 326 Acron has issue with mine for being safe, but doesn't seem to have the same issue with Com's (does have other issues, though).

Why did you find that significant when Acyron said he was going to put CoM to L-1 in that same post?

328 @lowell's reads list is o.0. Does he come back to this at any point?

What about it did you find strange?

Ugh, though, I totally misremembered my other game with ocean - he was scum. I'll admit some of this was a meta-read: we argued the fuck with him and got nked - I just remembered being impressed with his play. Thanks for the headsup.

I thought that this was an unlikely read for scum!Bella to fake. It shows evidence of a thought process on a player not displayed in thread (she never mentioned anything about meta on you before), I don't think she'd think to fake that as scum specifically, and I don't see as scum why she'd flip on her town read on you in the way she did.

It was mainly the low hanging fruit thing and the issues around tone.

The low hanging fruit piece is the piece that resonated with me as an example of acyron being inconsistent; while I didn't think he was scum for it, I didn't like his "you voted me because you thought I was low hanging fruit but I'm not low hanging fruit" piece in his argument with Magna.

The frustration with acron seemed real, 162 was good

I thought that both of reasons for Magna being town were pretty spot on; I thought that it wasn't necessarily the strength of his arguments that made in town in the acyron exchange, but how he presented them and so obviously believed in them. I also really liked the way he approached the Ollie waiting an hour to vote situation and how he prodded people to talk about it, and Bella picking up on Magna for these reasons instead of "his thought processes just seem really smart and he's super logical" makes it seem like the idea that she was siding with him because he was the stronger player less likely; if she was making a shallow scum move like that, it follows that she probably wouldn't be able to pick up on why Magna was town and just not strong, if that makes sense.

which seems super fake.

I don't mind at all that she's criticizing acyron for backing down from his policy lynch position that was getting him heat early game - I thought that was a fine reaction to the situation and still don't really understand what acyron was doing early game if he didn't really believe in the KainTepes policy lynch (especially after all the talk of KainTepes dying Day 1 being as beneficial as lynching scum).

The paranoai over the vote in 189 and then distancing himself from it (which nos picked up on).

In Bella's reads list, I didn't understand what detail Nos picked up in 192, and here, she explains it without being directly asked about it which, to me, shows evidence of a legitimate thought process considering this is something that she liked from 300 posts ago and is still bringing it up now despite no conversation about it in between.

All in all, I'd actually classify Bella as one of my strong town reads - sure, I have a couple questions about her posts because sometimes she says things and doesn't really elaborate on them, but I actually like the way that she's scum hunting this game and think that the best evidence of this is the way she approaches her reads on Acyron, Nos, and Magna; the latter is a sophisticated reading on a player that she's buddying (could be because she legitimately identified how he was town as scum and sided with him as a result, but seems unlikely), the Nos read is important because she remembers small details about it almost a week later, and I thought the Acyron accusations (in particular the low-hanging fruit bit and the repetition and the backing off from the policy stance) are all completely reasonable and pretty insightful.

[Imperium]

1. With Lowell, it's not just that he pushed ChurchOfMercy, it's that a) he was the first one to bring it up, and b) his play around them didn't look like a bus. There was no overt noise-making (which I usually expect when a bus is going well). He was content to kick-start the wagon and sit back. That doesn't get him much "towncred" because most people remember the hardest pushers on the wagon. If anyone's bussing, yours and Magna's posts fit that mold a whole lot more than Lowell's.

Lowell said that Church might be scum in 90. KTS voted CoM (with the implication that he was scum hunting) in 88. Lowell wasn't the first to bring it up. I disagree that Lowell would make a bunch of overt noise while busing when he is a low-volume poster. I don't think that it would be a great bus if he was scum, but I don't think he's a great scum player.

It's so vague I can't tell if she's just making stuff up and using buzzwords to justify a read. There's also the part about how she's avoiding giving proof that she read Ollie's games. Then you are lecturing me about townreading people who agree with me while scumreading people who don't. At the same time, one component of your townread on Bellaphant is that she agrees with you on Lowell.

I don't think saying she likes the thought process behind 162 and that she finds Magna's frustration with acyron to be genuine is a vague read or one particularly prone to buzzwords. I don't care about her avoiding giving proof about reading Ollie's games; if she's scum who didn't read them and then gets questioned on them, all she has to do is read them and then offer proof.

The point where you're bringing up us "lecturing" you is a point where I think you're getting unreasonable in your read on us. Tammy brought up that she thought your read on Lowell, Magna, and our slot was bad because it was particularly prone to attacking people who disagreed with you and town reading people who agreed with you. One small component of my town read was because she agreed with me on Lowell, sure, but this didn't end up being a large part of my town read on her.

3. On you and Magna pushing ChurchOfMercy without me: isn't that exactly what MagnaOfIllusion is doing? It's not just now but the entirety of the day, Magna has been so certain that ChurchOfMercy is mafia that he's literally accusing anyone with an opposing position of being mafia with them. He's not looking at things through a nuanced lens and questioning whether anyone's reads make sense for them to have. It's literally been "yep, counterwagon, you are mafia with CoM." Again, one of you wrote this beautiful lecture about how mafia is played by humans with different viewpoints. Yet, you haven't once looked at MagnaOfIllusion who detracts from the ChurchOfMercy wagon as being mafia with them. But in your mind, he's so incredibly town you'll eat various articles of clothing and in his mind, you are so town it hurts.

Magna's weakness as town is that he is particularly susceptible to town reading people that agree with him and scum reading people that disagree with them. This is something that my hydra partner and I are aware of based on our experience with him. I don't understand why people are town reading CoM in the first place (and, considering the best reason that has come up so far is "well maybe they're not scum with Snarky"), and so I understand his exasperation and utter disbelief at people town reading the slot.

The point that I was making when I brought up the alternative of Magna and I pushing CoM without you was that your concern at me very strongly preferring Snarky over CoM didn't make sense if CoM and Magna were my partners. We were getting towncred if CoM got lynched today because we were the major drivers of the wagon after you decided to push somewhere else. Why would I suddenly feel "intense frustration" at three townies forming a counter wagon on town to my partner?

4. You could always push your top scumread the following day. I'm not particularly frustrated that ChurchOfMercy is getting lynched because I know I can go for Snowman or anyone else tomorrow and Church was one of the few players I'm not townreading. You act like if Snarky does flip mafia, you can't try to convince everyone that Church was their partner.

I've reframed the point that I'm scum reading Church very strongly and am not scum reading Snarky that strongly, so I feel this point doesn't really bring anything new to the table.

I can't just push my top scumread the following day because there's a possibility that I die during the night. There's no reason to push or settle for my second strong read when I feel that the case on my top scumread is miles ahead of my second scumread. I wasn't frustrated that Snarky was getting lynched (he wasn't), I was frustrated that the wagon on my top scumread was falling apart for reasons that I didn't understand and no one would explain. I was not frustrated by yesterday because I thought it would do irreversible damage to the town; I was frustrated by yesterday because it didn't make any sense and players who I respected were the ones making nonsense moves and not addressing why they were making nonsense moves to an extent that I felt satisfied with. I also enjoy catching scum. I get passionate when I believe I've caught scum. I passionately push players when I believe I have caught them as scum because that feeling is part of why I play the game.

Please let me know where any of this is unclear.

5. I do hypothesize about various scumteams before flips. For instance, I think Snarky and Bellaphant are probably mafia together. That's not exclusive to my read on you. Sometimes the way mafia interact with each other can be extremely telling even before either of them flip. That doesn't mean I'm not trying to read you independently. I don't understand your's and Magna's mutual townreads on each other. Both seem shallow for two players that have been posting with much more depth on other players.

So, you think Snarky and Bellaphant are mafia together but you're willing to let CoM get lynched? Why?

Considering various scum teams before flips is fine; what I'm noting is that you're considering these various scum teams by creating scum teams around us (and we are not your strongest scumread). In Classic Mafia, my in-depth read on players on Gentlemen Johnny or DoT or Xyre or Zionite or others didn't come until much later because I didn't focus on them until later; when I have an in-depth read on a player, it's generally because I've taken the time to read through their posts carefully, understand what they're pushing, etc. It takes me time to download the entire game into my head and understand different interactions and question the things that I want to question, so of course I some of my reads are more shallow than others (because they are lower priority than others). Why are certain reads lower priority than others, you ask? Well, generally when I don't see any significant flags on a player and need more content to read them, my thought process on them is less significant than others who seem to be dropping significant flags everywhere or who seem to be really, really town in early interactions. You'll notice that my early read on Nosferatu and Ollie in in depth because they were doing a lot of things early game; my read on KTtheCreeper had added depth because I had special insight into his scum game thanks to my knowledge of the History Mafia PT, my read on Magna or you wasn't as in depth early because you are stronger players and better communicators than others because the stronger a player is at both alignments, the fewer alignment-indicative things they do. I don't mind having soul reads on the both of you at the moment because there's no way in hell I'd consider you both as a lynch right now, I've seen neither of you as doing anything that's significantly scummy to me, and there have been instances in both of your plays (Magna's with Acyron and early interactions with me, you moreso recently than early game) where I feel you've had strong emotional investment in a place that's hard to fake as scum. These reads will not stay if the gamestate ends up being radically different than what I thought it will be and the more significant way to read you will be through associatives, but I generally don't develop in depth reads on strong players early unless I'm confident in my ability to read them (and I'm not confident in my ability to read either of you).

I

(Nachomamma8) have not been scum reading you for a majority of the game. I was creeped out a little bit by your town read on jmo earlier but then several people agreed with that and I later understood that it wasn't an unreasonable position. For the rest of the game, I have been null-townreading you; in general, I've liked your contributions and I haven't found anything that's overtly scummy. I don't think you'd burn all the towncred you were accruing in a disgusting blaze of glory by protecting CoM because there is no way in hell CoM is making it past early game.

But I don't understand why you'd expect me to know how MagnaOfIllusion plays or argue that I'm creating a narrative around Snarky. I also don't understand your rush to end the day if you wanted to see more from Snarky. If you thought he could be mafia with Church, why not extend the day to let him take more positions on Church, let him assess the gamestate and either clear or hang himself? Wouldn't that also give you a better read to go off of tomorrow?

The Magna point and the Snarky point were Tammy's. Rushing the day in order to lynch Snarky was me being impatient to get a CoM lynch thanks to the whole passion and frustration thing. You're absolutely right that it's the objective move, but, late night and in the moment, it was frustrating to me.

[Imperium]

As it stands, I'm happy with Bella, Severa, Magna, KTS, Nosferatu, OW, and Ollie town reads for now. Severa is the weakest of those town reads for now since she hasn't really done anything strongly town (whereas I feel like everyone else in that list has done something that I really like).

Of remaining reads, Klingon/ABR are a strong scumread, Snarky is a much lesser scumread, then the muddled mess of Jim/Lowell/Acyron which probably contains the last scum and then, far behind them, is Xisiq. I don't think Snarky's play really screams town but I don't really agree with the cases against him and he's lynchbait extremely, I was town reading the entire block of Jim/Lowell/Acyron before but am probably going to read through their posts (Acyron I thought was town until I read through Bella's posts, Lowell I still think is probably town but am not really confident, Jim I liked their posting when it was happening but don't really have a strong grasp of why now). Xisiq, I thought creeper was town and I still think he is town but would rather read through his posts a little more in-depth.

[Imperium]

or if every time Xisiq responded he didn't post a very shallow analysis into SnarkySnowman's play and then nod and explain that he totally agreed with the CoM lynch

Obviously, I am biased here, but I think that demonstrating a working scumtell is perfectly adequate to consider a poster scum.

As regards the rest of scumteam, I'm very leery about you, MoI and OceanWind being town calling other town scum just because people face the prospect of getting their #2 rather than #1 lynch today, or even less significantly, get their preferred lynch anyway, just not immediately.

Considering a scumpartner for SS I'd pick an independently questionable poster with a minimal relational profile to them like Bellaphant.

And you are a robot.
Why Bellaphant over CoM?
Where are you going when CoM flips scum?

[Imperium]

You don't have to read through any of the stuff that's happening; the people that are active in thread have made their positions decently clear. If you want to provide a case for Snarky over Church, I'm listening, but am pretty convinced on that front, so.

[Imperium]

I want to point out something. The post that follows is from Mafiaception where day two ABR was being heavily scum read, and I argued against the scum read on him as I had him as a decently strong town read. I laid out for one of the players that was scum reading him what my understanding of his game was as I'd played with him in several games in the past year and had not misread him once. This was his response to my description of his play style.

Subject: MAFIACEPTION GAME OVER! Flawless Victory!

I don't think that abr particularly enjoys being scum but I think he would be energized by a scum team he enjoys or respects. Titus would probably be on that list. However, I think he'd be a bit demotivated after his partner got lynched and instead he seems energized.

This is true. I'm impressed by your understanding of my game.

So, he believes I have an understanding of his game. He respects me as a player, and I'm incorrectly scum reading him here and I don't get any response whatsoever? Except that snarky type of this town is collectively bad and will lose the game?

[Imperium]

Oh except to limply call us probably scum.

[Imperium]

Initial read through of Jim's posts doesn't really find anything inspiring and I'm finding myself figuring out why I even town read him in the first place.

I didn't mind when he talked about his read on KT originally, but his thought process wrt to us and KT doesn't really make sense; he ends up having KT as kind of a floating read when he makes his reads list and has us as his top town read because "we haven't said anything that he hated and if he's right on KT, we're town" and jmo because "he liked that one point he made". I don't think that's what a townie sounds like when they are talking about their strongest town reads.

He ended up making a point on Magna "not taking a side in the KT-Lowell" debacle and accusing him of avoiding getting his hands dirty, which doesn't really seem genuine to me - Magna was clearly and definitively taking a position on the Ollie-Nosferatu argument, so saying that he was scum who was afraid to get into a fight seems like a very bad read to me. I was going to continue through some of the points that he made and refute them 1 by 1, but they're all pretty bad.

The significant meat behind the read on Jim is mostly that how he formed his reads doesn't make sense from a town perspective; his Creeper read was stronger than anything else that he felt in the entire game, but he never made any effort to push it or get anything going. His town reads on our slot as jmo as his top town reads felt extraordinarily shallow, him throwing in acyron as leftover scum really didn't make sense when his reads elsewhere weren't strong at all, a lot of his attacks on players don't make sense coming from someone actually thinking about their attacks (examples: magna attack, extended KT attack), and his read that Church might be town for continuing to push in places where they weren't getting traction and then scum reading ABR for "not presenting information on universal town reads that [ABR] thought was scum since he was confident that town would win without him" when the more obvious reason to scumread such a post is why the hell would ABR think that town could win without him when he thought town leaders were town and the only significant read that everyone had at that point was that ABR was scum?

I like these points from jmo. I disagree slightly on the last, but that is more a matter of theory than a game opinion difference. As such, I'm leaning more green on him.

This is Jim's reason for having jmo as a #1 town read, which is just... ridiculous.

[Imperium]

I'll respond to Ocean Wind's posts that are addressed to me later. I've got exams to grade before errands to run, so I'll respond when I get back home.

But I do want to impress on everyone that snarky not voting on church and hedging there is not indicative of church being town. Snarky could just as easily not know what to do in relation to his partner, not want to bus, and therefore not want to vote there.

[Imperium]

I maintain Imperium is probably scum.

I am sorry your scum partners were as weak as they were.
I am sorry that we could not be town together.

[Imperium]

ABR, get in here and help me kill some newbs.

As far as Lowell-CoM interactions go, I don't really think that Lowell would call for his scum buddy to help him mislynch some newbs and then suddenly turn to bus ABR pretty soon after; a post like this makes it seem like he would be excited to play with ABR as a scum partner and thus would be less likely to lazily throw him into the fire in the way that he did here.

lowell: townreading so easily is how I won against you last game as scum fam

This is true. I was admittedly bad that game.

For pointing this out unprompted, I declare you town this game. No guts no glory.

I also liked this town read on Nosferatu from Lowell this game; I'd imagine as scum Lowell would probably play the "oh I'm paranoid of you because you burned me once" card, which is something I believe intuitively and not based on any past experience so I guess a more realistic way to approach this post is simply that it sounds town tonally.

I have new leader now, though, and his name is killthestory. Obvtown. VOTE: CoM I tend to think team CoM would be having a little more fun were they down. I'm getting a bit of the deflated-after-receiving-scum-role vibe from them. Which I feel is especially pronounced in hydras.

And then, following the whole "Lowell would be unlikely to bus ABR" train of thought, I think that if he did decide to bus ABR, he probably wouldn't do it in such a passive way and let KTS take the charge (which means, although I shot it down initially, I end up agreeing with OceanWind's point that Lowell probably wouldn't bus CoM in the way he did here).

I kind of feel like I... solved this game? CoM, bella, and KT. And CoM's "agreement" on bella doesn't do much for me, just looks like bussing.

And I like him continuing to be stubborn about KT even if I have no idea where the Bella read came from.

I don't think there's a whole lot to read into here, but tonally I'm fine with him and I think he's an unlikely (although not impossible) partner for CoM.

[Imperium]

Oh yeah no definitely not. I've never seen a player more disruptive to town progression than KT. I'm still not fully on board with the idea of policy lynches, but KT's existence is truly terrible for town and the game will be a lot more enjoyable/easier to process for all townies with him gone.

This quote kind of makes his later stance on policy lynches make more sense.

164 is kind of a really weird post in general:

You must be kidding... My first post in the game was yesterday. How is it possible to make a conclusion like that about someone at this point?

I'll be honest that post was annoying enough to push me away but I'm not going to rob the town because you're being foolish.

You must be kidding... My first post in the game was yesterday. How is it possible to make a conclusion like that about someone at this point?

I'll be honest that post was annoying enough to push me away but I'm not going to rob the town because you're being foolish.

You must be kidding... My first post in the game was yesterday. How is it possible to make a conclusion like that about someone at this point? Also why the #%&$ are you ISO'ing someone who has posted 6 posts in a 12 hour period and making conclusions based on it? I'm glad I call you scum later.

I'll be honest that post was annoying enough to push me away but I'm not going to rob the town because you're being foolish.

Which were three different responses to three different people. I suppose that this was something that he did on purpose in order to make a point, but I don't really understand why he'd be this offended on people pushing him for the policy lynch point.

I liked 168 as a knee-jerk response to someone agreeing with a point, especially since he did follow up with it. I didn't really mind his "I don't get lynched Day 1" as a response to KTS talking shit about lynching him, don't think it reads as him being worried about getting lynched.

Not sure, you may have to help me. Maybe the Kain policy-lynch business but I'd hope someone would be able to take it all with a grain of salt once they've seen my post-RVS play. Which is why I'm not too worried.

I think distancing from the policy-lynch business when it was something that sort of got him in trouble early game was a little iffy, but I find his stance on the KainTepes policy lynch as something I still don't understand (if he didn't believe in the KainTepes push when he was making it, why did he legitimately attempt to push it through? why didn't he back off earlier?) and that situation in general as something that's been talked about to death, so probably won't address too much wrt this.

I thought his point that Magna was concerned with his standing in the town because he questioned OceanWind's lack of read on him was weird and bad, as I've talked about before.

There's a difference between jokingly and clearly mentioning it in passing as opposed to doing it in the form of a question as to not look like you're doing it.

You saying that "hey, you're super Town and I am too, just give me a minute" didn't really look like a joke to me.

The things that he's done that I liked are mostly included who he decided to engage with; he's spent most of his day pushing some of the hardest targets to push with his CoM vote as an afterthought, which I'm not sure he would do as scum (whether or not CoM is scum, but this point is stronger if CoM is scum). I also sort of like the over reactiveness that everyone else hates; it reads more to me like he's willing to stand behind the content that he's created and legitimately doesn't understand when people criticize it, which is a point that's exceptionally clear in his 195, and I ended up liking his points a lot better once he came around on Magna and OceanWind.

[Imperium]

I feel better on Xisiq after reskimming his posts (don't have town right this moment and don't see reading them in depth as a huge priority).

I think that CoM-Snarky-Jim is the scum team. If any of them flip town, the first pool that I'd be reconsidering looks something like Severa-Lowell-Acyron, although in writing that specific pool out I don't have the faintest confidence or inkling that any of these three could be scum. I'm guessing the scum team is probably just CoM-Snarky-Jim.

[Imperium]

I want to point out something. The post that follows is from Mafiaception where day two ABR was being heavily scum read, and I argued against the scum read on him as I had him as a decently strong town read. I laid out for one of the players that was scum reading him what my understanding of his game was as I'd played with him in several games in the past year and had not misread him once. This was his response to my description of his play style.

Subject: MAFIACEPTION GAME OVER! Flawless Victory!

I don't think that abr particularly enjoys being scum but I think he would be energized by a scum team he enjoys or respects. Titus would probably be on that list. However, I think he'd be a bit demotivated after his partner got lynched and instead he seems energized.

This is true. I'm impressed by your understanding of my game.

So, he believes I have an understanding of his game. He respects me as a player, and I'm incorrectly scum reading him here and I don't get any response whatsoever? Except that snarky type of this town is collectively bad and will lose the game?

This is my last game, maybe for awhile, maybe forever.

All the emotion and drive I usually pour into mafia has now been divested into making my partner happy. I don't have any energy left for this.

My problem isn't who is scum anymore, it's what will I do next to stay on this epic high before it comes down. I'm learning about who I am and what I like doing every single day, it's wonderfully fulfilling. It took me a long time to get my mafia game to a place where I was comfortable. Now I'm doing the same with life.

I'm very glad that you've found a partner that you're happy with and that you're directing your attention to that. I really am.

I'm sorry to hear this might be your last game for awhile and I'm sorry it's a game where you drew scum. I'd much prefer you to be town. If I'm somehow misreading you, I'm sorry for that too. I understand placing more importance on your life than mafia. There's been several games over the past year where I've not given it as much as people expect because of outside influences, so when people were scum reading me for being different I tried to at least make up for not being what they expect by being as transparent in my thoughts as I could.

I'm not seeing that from you and when you know you have a pretty distinctive scum to town meta, and you're playing very strongly to that scum meta and you would have to know that you are then I would expect some sort of adjustments, which I'm not seeing. Klingon's posting looking nothing like the past couple times I played with her as town doesn't help that at all. I just can't see you guys as town here.

But congratulations on your happiness. I hope the high lasts for a very long time.

[Imperium]

I don't understand why anyone would use cases they don't believe in to "get the game going." I don't RVS vote ever. My first post is usually a vote for the person that I find scummiest based on posts so far, and then I change it whenever someone new does something even scummier and so on. Low information doesn't mean you "clown around" and say things you don't actually believe.

Well this is a matter of play style. The great thing about mafia is that it's made up of humans who have varying approaches and there is no right way. If you expect people to do things your way, you're probably going to be frustrated and not understand things a lot. But that's not really germane to reading each other. If there was something else in this response you wanted me to respond to let me know, otherwise I'd like to get through as much as I can in my limited time right now.

Yeah, actually I'd like you explain why you think I'm supposed to know that MagnaOfIllusion would find Acryon's "self-contradiction" scummy. We both agree that it wasn't. You played with MagnaOfIllusion before so you just think that's how he would interpret it. I didn't and I found him scummy for it.

(And I'm aware people have varying approaches to the game but some approaches are better than others. And no, I don't expect people to "do things my way", no idea where you got that.)

Sure. Tell me what about the following you didn't understand or need explained further.

I get my belief that you expect everyone to follow your lead and do things your way from some minimal reading of some of your posting including but not limited to a GD thread in which you disparaged other people's reads lists you don't find valuable and clearly prized your way over others.

This head, for one, thinks it's a silly question to ask in the first place. Yes, of course it's possible he was bussing and his focus was on his partner from early on, especially if it's a weak scum partner whom he knows is going to get scum read by people who know how to read him. He busses early and gets that nice little cred.

I do not believe you find that hard to believe.

But again, silly questions to ask pre-flip.

Not really. If you are so confident ChurchOfMercy is mafia, then the rest of your worldview has to align with that. There are several other things that Lowell did that make me think he's town (his reads on Bellaphant and Severa for instance). The only thing I disliked was his insistence that SnarkySnowman was town and Xisiqomelir was mafia.

@Imperium -

You say that you expect MagnaOfIllusion to react exactly as he did to the low-hanging fruit argument. In your mind, does this also apply to Bellaphant? It's pretty clear to me what Acryon was arguing and it apparently is to you as well. What do you make of Bellaphant's post here (the segment I quoted above)?

Not sure. With Magna, I think it's pretty apparent early on what types of things he picks up on, but that was something I especially consider a Magna thing to push and question because I played a fair amount with him the first year I joined here before he went on his hiatus. My only real experience with Bella is replacing her in Bees where she was being very widely scum read, mostly for following what other people were doing and being swayed by others too easily (I'm going off memory here. I need to review that game to refresh her play style.) When I replaced her I was able to figure out the type of player she was and explained what I believed her motivations were, and later Bella messaged me and told me I had hit the nail on the head, which is the reference to me soul reading her. If I'm remembering correctly, I can see her seeing an argument by a strong player and thinking it makes sense.

But quite frankly, I haven't really had a chance to dig into this game the way I'd like to and won't be able to before this day phase ends. Nacho has her as his third possible scum read and I've just gone mhm as she's not a pressing concern for today. So, I'd like to actually push this conversation to tomorrow when I can get a better grasp of the game and reread Bees and what I thought about her approach to the game. If for some reason we don't awake, the game in reference is in Little Italy and is Bees moderated by Marquis.

To expand a bit. The first game I played with Magna I picked up on the types of things he picked up on and argued about fairly easily. Why it struck me as off with regards to you was because, as I said before, you questioned and got after Nosferatu for the time thing which I thought was fairly obvious. And since you yourself didn't pick up on something that was quite obvious it was off to me that you were getting after someone else for not picking up on something obvious. If you hadn't shown yourself the inability to read something rather obvious, I'd probably not have taken note of it. And as I said before it's probably more an example of one person's obvious not being another persons.

[Imperium]

Not sure why 811 posted there.

[Imperium]

ChurchOfMercy is at L-2 with KillTheStory claiming intent to hammer so effective L-1. No one else vote since I really would prefer we don't end this day early.

My primary pool of mafia is still SnarkySnowman, Bellaphant, ChurchOfMercy, and Jim in that order.

I'm less sure about townreads on Lowell and Imperium. Lowell because of his post defending Snarky and some of his later posts not making sense. I do think he's town if ChurchOfMercy is mafia though. I don't buy that he's bussing them. Imperium because a lot of their reasoning doesn't make internal sense. The Lowell-bussing-Church argument is one. Their townread on Bellaphant is shallow and the intense frustration over the SnarkySnowman wagon doesn't make sense when the latter was their second scumread. I also don't like the overly aggressive posturing and it seems a lot different from the game I played with Nachomamma8 where he was a lot more diplomatic and had a "positive energy" for lack of a better word. Specifically the parts where they accused me of "creating a narrative" around Snarky, and the latest posts (807, 814). If Bellaphant and Snarky are mafia like I think, Imperium needs to be looked at.

My read on Ollie is a lot weaker now considering he hasn't done much of anything lately. But the things I townread him for early are pretty strong towntells so he's still leaning town. KillTheStory, MagnaOfIllusion, Nosferatu, Acryon, Xisiqomelir, and Severa are all town.

Few problems with this.

Why can't we think that Lowell is bussing Church?

What of our reasoning doesn't make internal sense? I'm of the belief that just disregarding someone might be scum because you think they might not have interacted with scum that way is shallow and stupid. I've seen far far too many games lost because of crap like that. Take for instance your silly viewpoint that Church is more likely town if Snarky is scum. You've come up with a narrative, and yes that's what it looks like to me when you assign reasoning for people making an action rather than examining all the possibilities for why they could be doing something, like oh I don't know Snarky is scum who doesn't want to bus his partner or jump on his partner too soon because people will think they're definitely partnered. So yes, your narrative that doesn't really read all that likely looks like you creating a narrative. Now, I don't think it's entirely likely you're partnered with Church as you jumping off at the end would just make you look terrible when they flip scum and I believe that ABR would be a bit more energized to play this game with you if you were scum playing the way you are.

The frustration over getting a lesser scumread that is definitely not as definite as our primary scum read makes a shit ton of sense. We've caught scum. This day was going to end in a scum lynch of someone who was doing nothing but creating noise to cause confusion and you guys jumped off of that and started calling church possible town due to associations with snarky for weak as shit reasons. I thought you followed Machina mafia? If you did, and since you posted at the end of the game with an observation, then how did you miss how frustrated we got when we had scum nailed both days two and three and town mislynched both those days mislynching our town reads.

Quite frankly I don't think you're actually honestly scum reading us. You can probably convince yourself you are, but if you were actually honest with yourself you're not. I don't for one second believe that you are that intuitive at reading this game so that you could declare Severa obviously town based on her reaction to Snarky's case on her, but are actually scum reading our posts. What I do think is that you're used to driving the game and you want control of the game. You're coming up against some pretty strong opposition from both of us and Magna, and I think you are frustrated because you don't have the control you need and therefore your only response is to scum read us. If you are town like I think you are now, you should probably step back and think about the game rationally. You might not be able to now, but after the game you should probably reconsider why our posting has bothered you so much you think it comes from scum because I can guarantee you it's not because we're not internally consistent or aggressive. It's something else and that's on you, not us.

[Imperium]

Well you're not as good at this game as you think you are then. Sorries.

Do you actually believe that Church is going to flip town?

pedit: severa

[Imperium]

It's cool. I just like it when people who think they're amazingly awesome at this game actually thinks there's a chance in hell I could be scum when I've been bleeding town over the past 36 pages. Humble pie is humble. Especially someone who literally just witnessed my scum game.

FTR I also happen to know how much you love to bus and just how great your scum record is, so while my game has been unmistakenly unfakable town for me. You're likely town, but I wouldn't underestimate you and if you are scum here probably shouldn't underestimate me as town either.

[Imperium]

You're missing the point if you think it's about scumreading you.

What I do think is that you're used to driving the game and you want control of the game. You're coming up against some pretty strong opposition from both of us and Magna, and I think you are frustrated because you don't have the control you need and therefore your only response is to scum read us

This is what it's for.

Don't know why you'd have a problem with that. I don't think his scum read on either of us comes from actually thinking we're scum but being frustrated. And I do think he wants control of games, and I think that's where his scum read on us comes from. (I've been there. I've scum read people out of frustration at them for various reasons. I've tried learning from it and recognizing it because it's not productive.) He probably won't ever admit that, and it will probably make him dig his heels in this game and probably get mad, but after the game or when we've flipped town maybe he'll reflect on it and it will maybe be something he'll think about in future games.

[Imperium]

You're absolutely right.
This game is already facing a too many cooks in the kitchen kinda deal and I haven't really started doing things.
I suspect that {me, Oceanwind, you} are all town.
MoI is not a townread.

IF you're wrong here and I have to choose between you and Oceanwind, I'd take Oceanwind. Sorry.

You are right about the too many cooks thing. And in most instances I'd be happy to offer analysis and let those who like to lead in more aggressive ways do their thing. But not when I have a scum read I really believe in and it looked to be getting a pass for silly reasons.

Magna is a pretty strong townread for us. I do keep asking Nacho if I'm giving him a pass because I'm just so damn happy he's back, but I just don't see him as scum here. My read is based on the games I played with him before he went on hiatus.

I doubt very seriously the three of us will be in LyLo together so I don't see that as a problem

[Imperium]

887 doesn't really feel like a response to 885, which was the lion's share of the reasoning.

Why would it be a response to 885 when I was literally responding to, and quoted, 884?

[Imperium]

I'm going to bed soon, but 883 was in response to severa, not you.

Also ocean wind, I'm going to be frank. I've thought for awhile you were an alt of a player banned for harassing the hell out of me. Your play styles are rather similar. However, I think I was wrong on that because of several things. I've had my back up due to that. So, sorry if that's bleeding through.

I don't think I'm hostile. I prefer creating environments where town works together. If I have a strong read I believe in though, I will push it. I don't live very long most games and it's incredibly frustrating to sit in dead threads watching my scum reads pass by because I either didn't speak up like I should have or didn't push something strongly enough.

[Imperium]

Yeah, and I get that.
I strongly disagree with your MoI TR fwiw. He's definitely leaning scum for me.
And like I said, this is if you in fact derailed my SS wagon to push the lynch back onto town. If you're going to hit scum I don't have an issue falling into line obediently.
But if we're going to be doing this forever and you won't be hitting scum for it I'll start to have a problem.

If I'm wrong on church, I'll be doing one hell of a reassessment party tomorrow.

I'll try to explain the manga town read later, but I'm going to crash or watch tv or something. Been grading exams all day and my brain is fried.

[Imperium]

887 doesn't really feel like a response to 885, which was the lion's share of the reasoning.

I want everyone to note that Church is acting like everyone voting her is scum. She's trying to pull a sort of intimidating ate in which she claims we're all going to have some explaining to do when she flips town as if she's not an experienced player who knows damn well mislynches happen as a matter of sort.

I like how you're absolving your own sins here.

I know - try to make it look like it's all

my

fault!

There are things you should be doing if we were misreading a town you. Your reactions are all wrong.

[Imperium]

I'm going to bed soon, but 883 was in response to severa, not you.

Also ocean wind, I'm going to be frank. I've thought for awhile you were an alt of a player banned for harassing the hell out of me. Your play styles are rather similar. However, I think I was wrong on that because of several things. I've had my back up due to that. So, sorry if that's bleeding through.

Lol, you also remind me of a player that was recently banned. I liked her playstyle a lot though.

I don't think I'm hostile. I prefer creating environments where town works together. If I have a strong read I believe in though, I will push it. I don't live very long most games and it's incredibly frustrating to sit in dead threads watching my scum reads pass by because I either didn't speak up like I should have or didn't push something strongly enough.

That's fine. I've come around to thinking ChurchOfMercy is mafia anyways so as soon as we hear from Jim/replacement, I'm happy voting there.

Oh that came across wrong. I didn't have a problem with his or your play style and before the banning we worked together in games just fine. I thought you were him because the play styles were similar.

Though I do find the robotic sort of playstyles jarring until I get used to the person and can gauge where they're coming from and what they look at. I'm more logic/emotion-intuition based, and which parts come to the forefront depend on my actual mood.

Okay gonna try sleeping now.

[Imperium]

Though I do find the robotic sort of playstyles jarring until I get used to the person and can gauge where they're coming from and what they look at. I'm more logic/emotion-intuition based, and which parts come to the forefront depend on my actual mood.

I wouldn't say I'm robotic. I can read the gut/emotion type players just fine although I don't develop those sort of reads myself. I tend to be stoic myself and play a logic-based game.

That's what I mean by robotic. Not that you can't read emotional players but that you don't express much emotion in your questions/pushes/reads yourself. Me reading you being maybe frustrated or paranoid in the way that you started to scum read magna and us is what made me come around to thinking you were almost definitely town.

[Imperium]

Ollie -

A few questions about your 831:

1. Can you point out what bullshit reasons ChurchOfMercy is being voted for?

I said that voting for them because... they're likely to be VT if town, because we'd get alot of info or because they'd be annoying to sort would be BS reasons to vote for them. These were things I was considering when deciding which side I landed on Snarky/Church. I think you misinterpreted what I said there?

Nacho did too! But I explained to him what you meant and then it made sense to him.

3. What do you actually think of ChurchOfMercy? Your entire read these seem designed around who else is voting who rather than the player themselves.

I don't have a scum read horse in this race so the decision came down to who I could get a scummier read on. Someone I'm finding hard to read; Church, or someone I was giving a pass to; Snarky. So I ISOed them to sort. Now pretty much most of Church's posts have been scummy for the last week or so due to the troll-y tone but that could be explained by them being the clear lynch for today since around that time. & before that they were a null read for me. They're a bit all over the place but so was I when I was in a hydra (never again) under alot of pressure. I can find excuses for them. Snarky isn't quite a scum read for me atm but is heading that way mainly because of the read list, voting Severa just for not doing much isn't great either, there wasn't much behind that at that point IMO. Better than voting for Church's great big question mark. Who is on which wagon definitely makes me feel better about my vote but that's not the meat in the sandwich.[/quote]

Did you read the posts I made about ABR and Klingon and at least posted links to Klingon's town games and her reactions to being scum read. Do you want to know why her reactions are all wrong?

So, let's start with me because I'm really self-absorbed, it's late, I'm tired and have been grading all day. So, early one one head declares a gut scum read on us. The other, noisy one, declares us town. Do you know where the noisy one changed her town read to a scum read on us? We've only gotten townier throughout the day, so apparently it got to last night when she was creating lots of wifomy noise.

Anyway, her reactions are all wrong because she keeps pointing out how all of us who are voting for her are going to look so bad tomorrow and have a bunch of explaining to do. Now, I don't know about you but I'm pretty damn sure that the majority of us voting for that slot have been pretty damn clear on why we're voting for her. We won't have any explaining to do because we've done it.

This is not the reaction of town being mislynched. Town when almost mislynched in her position does not make the "you're going to look so bad...you've to to clear your name...you'll have explaining to do." Oh sure town get frustrated when being mislynched but they say things like "you're going to feel so stupid...can't wait to see how you react to the egg on your face tomorrow...I'm gonna laugh so hard when you're wrong...you're going to look so dumb." That's how town frustrated at being mislynched react. Not what klingon is doing. And acryon is right, if in some alternate universe they are town, I'm more going to be annoyed at their play because they did absolutely nothing to look town.

Then there's this gem:

If I'm wrong on church, I'll be doing one hell of a reassessment party tomorrow.

Starting with trying your best to clear your own name...

I hope you get NKed.

This is after declaring that we are not obviously town (after calling us town earlier? Then saying we're nothing but noise and passionate and are Snarky's buddy.)

Here she's saying that we're going to have to clear our own name, implying we are scum on her mislynch.

If we are scum how in the hell can we be NKed?

This makes absolutely no sense to me.

[Imperium]

The only way that makes sense is if she's calling us town and saying she hopes we get night killed because she's a mislynch that we're pushing through and she thinks we will ruin the game. But that's not what any of her other posting suggests. She trying to call us scum on her mislynch, and therefore the nightkill reference makes no sense.

That's internal inconsistency. If I'm thinking straight that it it's fucking late.

[Imperium]

Severa is not an alt of LLD but is an alt of a good scum player with a good scum reputation.

Magna does have a tendency to view people who are looking at the game the same way as him as town and think those who disagree* as scum.

*I don't think this is blanket. I think in some ways it's in part that when he thinks that something is exceedingly obvious, i.e. Church is scum, that he can't accept that anyone else would see it any other way. For instance in Kingdom Hearts, moons and moons ago, he had me as a town read early game. He was reading someone else as scum that I was also reading as scum. That person made a post that I thought made him more likely town and when I said so, Magna thought I was more likely scum for it. We were both town and I was strongly town reading him in that game, correctly, while correctly identifying him as scum in a concurrent game. I point this out because my town read on Magna is not shallow, it's anything but. Can I be wrong, sure. Can I be overlooking stuff because we literally only joined this game because he came back, sure. I don't think I am though. I think I've analyzed it enough to be fairly confident.

I do think that him showing up this morning and suspecting you and anyone else is more in line with how he would perceive it as town than how he would react as scum. I'll try to explain this more later definitely tomorrow if we're all awake. If we're not here, please listen to what we said on Bella and read that Bees game I mentioned. Also meta a magna town and scum game. His scum game is good and competent, but I do think there are some pretty clear indicators there that would explain his views.

[Imperium]

i'd recommending reading the full game; what stands out to another player very likely won't stand out to me and seeing what you decide is important and what you think about it is much more alignment indicative than just seeing your opinion on what other people think is important.

[Imperium]

Diego1487

[Imperium]

Alone, if you're reading CoM as scum, should probably vote them; we don't have very long until deadline hits.

[Imperium]

A few things I'd like to see elaborated on:

I'm about to get back from work in about 2 hours; I'll elaborate shortly after that.

A general reminder to everyone about this setup in particular: we are starting at evens, meaning that successfully stopping a kill will give us an extra mislynch to spare. As a result, the Jailkeeper should be using their power to protect strong townreads as opposed to block the scum kill until either A) there is only one scum left, or B) a kill has been blocked. Once there is only one scum left, then the jailkeeper should out.

[Imperium]

7 and a half hours until deadline.

[Imperium]

6 hours. Don't depend on KTS to hammer CoM, just get it done.

[Imperium]

this isn't the game i post in when i'm drunk

[Imperium]

glhf

[Imperium]

Please stop.

[Imperium]

[Imperium]

This heads has been drinking too, but real quick.

As far as posting in one game and not another, the only thing I can say abut that is it's generally not a significant tell especially when it's a matter of hours. I can only pay attention to one game at a time in the moment. Nacho should be posting more here tomorrow, so you'll get more complete thoughts then especially considering some of our overnight thoughts may have changed.

Ow - I realize this question is np moot now since com flipped town, but earlier you asked if I agreed with nachos post about Lowell and the bussing issue and I didn't answer it. Nacho and I had discussed and agreed on his interpretation which is the case for a large part of our posting/reads. If there's something that one of us doesn't feel as strongly about as the other we'll post that but we communicate well, so those things usually get worked out behind the scenes, especially in a game like this.

thanks severa for throwing me a hen yesterday and listening to my read, but you didn't exactly sheep as you were scum reading them as well. Maybe not as strongly as we were but you didn't have them as town. Quite frankly, I'm not shedding one year over that lunch that was the most atrocious display of town okay I've ever seen. Abr's disinterest? Sure, I get. But Klingons play was appalling and I keep trying to figure out where I went wrong but there was nowhere, that play was just horrible.


I wasn't feeling good Wednesday night but I did read ow' case on severa and was like yay he sees what we see as overnight we had discussed that post severa made about com flipping town/as flipping scum, and while yesterday when we thought com were scum nacho had thought the post was fine while I didn't, but then when com flipped town he joined me on not liking it and we came to the same conclusion as ow. Our overnight scum team was severa, snarky, and alone. I thought that maybe severa got frustrated on a bad bus by snarky and that was why severa turned back at him so aggressively.

However, we both are rethinking that field to her listing today not feeling that scummy and some of the frustration seeming town. Also I am reminded that yesterday nacho thought that severa outing her alt to us looked townish.

Anyway, this doesn't change our reads on alone or snarky. I'll post one of the posts in particular nacho hated from alone and snarky' slot is still meh especially because jmo replaced put ostensibly due to lack of time but immediately inner to another game. We're not sure on a third. I need to look at Magna's case and through that meta which probably won't happen God a couple of days but nacho thinks kill is fine.

[Imperium]

I want to point out something. The post that follows is from Mafiaception where day two ABR was being heavily scum read, and I argued against the scum read on him as I had him as a decently strong town read. I laid out for one of the players that was scum reading him what my understanding of his game was as I'd played with him in several games in the past year and had not misread him once. This was his response to my description of his play style.

Subject: MAFIACEPTION GAME OVER! Flawless Victory!

I don't think that abr particularly enjoys being scum but I think he would be energized by a scum team he enjoys or respects. Titus would probably be on that list. However, I think he'd be a bit demotivated after his partner got lynched and instead he seems energized.

This is true. I'm impressed by your understanding of my game.

So, he believes I have an understanding of his game. He respects me as a player, and I'm incorrectly scum reading him here and I don't get any response whatsoever? Except that snarky type of this town is collectively bad and will lose the game?

This is my last game, maybe for awhile, maybe forever.

All the emotion and drive I usually pour into mafia has now been divested into making my partner happy. I don't have any energy left for this.

My problem isn't who is scum anymore, it's what will I do next to stay on this epic high before it comes down. I'm learning about who I am and what I like doing every single day, it's wonderfully fulfilling. It took me a long time to get my mafia game to a place where I was comfortable. Now I'm doing the same with life.

This is so beautiful written, it should be turned into a song, or some country's anthem. Sorry to say I am reading you as scum too at this point. It would make since for you to want your last game to last as long as possible, but someone has to win.

Nacho particularly hated the someone has to win bit.

[Imperium]

Vote: SnarkySnowman

Here you go RC. I wouldn't follow you if I thought you were scum, but here's a bone for now. More thoughts obviously coming later, got distracted.

[Imperium]

Shit, sorry. Rl sucks balls right now, I'm gonna try and catch up right now and if not I'll speak to kelbris.

please don't replace out!
if you need to take a short V/LA, then go ahead and take it.

[Imperium]

This is a pure burden-of-proficiency argument where he is setting up to discredit Imperium and shoving the responsibility for the mislynch squarely on them. This despite the fact that the majority of the town wanted Church dead and we didn't have the numbers to switch regardless of Imperium's push there. Another issue I have is the vagueness of his threat. "I'll start to have a problem" leaves him open to either discredit them or push for a mislynch without committing to a position.

This is the reason I started to have suspicion of him overnight; the vague threat to us if CoM flipped town looked like he was preempting pushing a lynch on us after CoM flipped town. I'm not really sure what I feel about him now.

And that's IF you're town.

If he's town? I thought OceanWind was one of your stronger townreads from yesterday?

[Imperium]

RC, also wouldn't mind if you could remind me why you think Snarky is scun.

[Imperium]

The townread of mine that was a townread for the shakiest logic was Lowell, considering the strong part of that townread was based on Lowell not bussing CoM in the way that he did. I'm still not really townreading Snarky or Alone; at this point, I think I probably have the stronger scumread on Alone but I don't mind pushing Snarky for a little while first.

[Imperium]

I'm going to bed but real quick:

Yeah, that is what we thought over night. I'm not sure why you'd expect us to have such intimate knowledge of your scum game that we can't suspect something like that. But you also have to think of our position and what we were thinking after we saw our biggest scum read flip town.

Your posting today quelled that overnight suspicion quite a bit or we'd not be voting snarky right now with you.

All right sleep time. Sorrow if that's not explained really well.

[Imperium]

I'm going to bed but real quick:

Yeah, that is what we thought over night. I'm not sure why you'd expect us to have such intimate knowledge of your scum game that we can't suspect something like that. But you also have to think of our position and what we were thinking after we saw our biggest scum read flip town.

Your posting today quelled that overnight suspicion quite a bit or we'd not be voting snarky right now with you.

All right sleep time. Sorrow if that's not explained really well.

Picking this back up since I was falling asleep in the middle of it. Church of Mercy did flip town and we wondered if you did know and were setting us up for that. It felt slimy when you said it to me as indicated by my reaction to it as that was my immediate thought. And after Church flipped I was near certain that's what you were doing. The Snarky read felt proportionately off because he was doing more stuff than I've seen him do and was behaving more like he did in Machina, so your turn off of church and onto him we thought could be a bus born of him pushing you. A lot of people get peeved when a weaker partner pushes them, and in a team of you/Snarky I would expect for you to expect yourself to go the distance not him. Therefore, his bus on you would be terrible and you might want to shut that down. I also know you like to bus.

So, that's what we were working with in the night and I was happy and felt it was reinforced by OceanWind's case and seeing the same thing. After you started posting today, I've been doubting that. Is it still lingering in the back of my mind, sure. It's just not something I think it as likely as I thought it in the night phase.

[Imperium]

You realize that the reason I was as deathtunneled as I was in 1750 was because I had a 100% confirmed scum I wanted to wagon. In this case, I do not have a 100% confirmed scum to wagon, I have you, who seems fairly scummy and who I would like to wagon. I'm not discounting the possibility that you might be town, I just think that's really unlikely.

There is absolutely nothing in your iso to indicate that you think RC is anything but scum.

[Imperium]

One of my sticking points with snarky snowman is how much I hated his predecessor and jmo replacing out for apparently not being able to catch up and then immediately joining another game.

[Imperium]

I dearly hope for my sanity that you're town.

It's very doubtful that she's town.

[Imperium]

Also, MoI's share in the push on me and particularly his last reaction feel incredibly fake.

So I'm PRETTY sure I know what MagnaofIllusion's scumgame looks like, and I'm PRETTY sure this isn't it. None of the signs I'm looking for are there and his tone just feels entirely town. The only reason he's not in the top-tier town is because I don't have a large enough sample size where I'd be able to make that familiarity call with absolute certainty.

Ranger. Can I call you Ranger? I know that you keep insisting that you really are a new player to this site and are not a very well established player recreating yourself through this alt.

But. Ranger would have no idea what Magna's scum game or town game looked like. He's been gone since 2012 and just came back. He doesn't have a finished game to his name since Ranger has been around.

[Imperium]

If it was Nacho posting around page 28, I'm almost positive Imperium is scum by the way.

It was both of us!

We're not scum though, which should be evident but you keep being you!

[Imperium]

Magna's weakness as town is that he is particularly susceptible to town reading people that agree with him and scum reading people that disagree with them.

Psst.

Magna.

Guess what Imperium's scumread of CoM was doing to you?

I seem to recall words along the lines of...

Imperium is so Town it hurts. Any concerns I might have had in the deep recesses of my mind have been washed away in the avalanche of their posting the last 24 hours.

What their storm of posting was doing was shutting down the viable SnarkySnowman wagon (a wagon they were

earlier encouraging

mind you!), in favor of the same wagon you were pushing: the CoM mislynch.

Psst. You know what you should do? Check your facts before you make a stupid assertion like this. We were on CoM's wagon before Magna was. Are we prescient? Did we know that eventually Magna would also scum read them and we could agree with him then? Is that what we were doing?

I don't think anyone who has ever played with me or seen me as scum could actually say with a straight face that I'd be so cheeky as to tell the thread what someone's weakness as town is and then turn around and do it. Some people sure. Me, no.

Feel free to point out where we didn't believe in our ChurchofMercy scum read though. Also, you'll have to point out what the hell we thought we'd gain by shutting down a wagon on our partner we'd know would go through the next day and leave us with absolutely no credibility whatsoever. Snarky was our second scum read, second. We were convinced we'd found scum in Church and we weren't going to let it slip past us again. People were also saying that Church was town if Snarky was scum, which we did not believe at all and did not want them to slip by while we watched from the dead thread yet again that people weren't lynching scum. We were wrong. But you'd know all this if you were actually reading and not skimming and making fake ass reads lists.

[Imperium]

Heading to work. I'll pick back up later.

[Imperium]

this isn't the game i post in when i'm drunk

And this is very much a scumclaim.

LOL

[Imperium]

I still think the tone of Severa's posts is town, they're wreckless. She's like an amalgamation of several posters I know who attract attention every game. & she's not even bothering to defend herself.

@SEVERA

we should see some of your previous games, doesn't matter if they're on a different site.

The rest of this post is about Lowell... At the beginning of the game he was gathering allies, started to do something with them, then just ducked out of the game... During this time, he didn't respond to a big post I mostly directed at him. 541 This is yet more evasion which he was doing earlier in the game, that kind of thing was why he fell into my scum leans.

Part of the reason for my preference for a SS lynch was to do with how sturdy the CoM wagon was throughout a large portion of day 1. Why is this an issue? Well if you draw a line in the sand early in the day & get your vote sorted then you can just coast along never having to change it. Safety in numbers too etc. I find it hard to believe there was no scum on that wagon with the way it played out. Lowell's vote was made really early on April 5th 157 & it stayed until the flip. His participation fell way off after that. & there was this which was never fleshed out or followed up on despite it being questioned, counting that as more evasion as well...

^^^ this is a scummy post

Futile gathering of allies. Parks vote. Evasion. Lowell's day 1. VOTE: Lowell

Lowell is a low poster, but I keep coming back to these posts here:

ABR, get in here and help me kill some newbs.

I'm also a little worried CoM might be scum. Which makes me sad. And that Killthestory might be town. Which makes me sadder.

I'm starting to see the Ollie case, if for no other reason than his growing frustration that no one else is voting for obvtown killthestory like he wants us to. And yes, Ollie, I do normally sheep ABR. Because it's fun. You got a problem?

I have new leader now, though, and his name is killthestory. Obvtown. VOTE: CoM I tend to think team CoM would be having a little more fun were they down. I'm getting a bit of the deflated-after-receiving-scum-role vibe from them. Which I feel is especially pronounced in hydras.

I don't see them as gathering allies. I do a similar thing to what he did at the beginning in which i look for people I enjoy working with.

His thing about thinking that CoM might be scum and it making him sad is something I felt too. It's a bummer when people you enjoy playing with turn out to be scum, and especially so when you know how much they dislike playing scum.

The feeling of getting a bit deflated after receiving scum role is one of the reasons we too were ready Church as scum.

It's not a smoking gun to make him town but it does give me pause on him being scum.

(Yes, OW I get this is pretty much along the same reasons you were town reading Lowell yesterday and I gave you a hard time for it!)

[Imperium]

Ollie's vote on me is opportunistic and terrible. It's my experience that the first person to point out "Lowell has been dodging, let's get him" in invariably scum. THIS LOW-HANGING FRUIT FIGHTS BACK!

VOTE: Ollie. This is both OMGUS and correct.

strong townreads from huer and snarky. ocean wishes he gave off town-reads, but he doesn't. Mostly just try-hard reads. He could go either way.

Are you saying you're strong town reading snarky and alone? Why?

[Imperium]

I have comments!
Your case sucks and you should feel bad.
You don't think that I would have fucking realized how bad today would look after I jumped ship to a town lynch?
I voted CoM because I thought they were scum and I wanted to throw Tammy a bone because she was super invested in her read.
At least I've been reminded that my MO of never being nice and always being a stubborn bastard is the correct way of playing as either alignment.
Just stop.

Just so you know you're not allowed to use this self-meta to exonerate yourself while positing we could be scum knowing how bad we would look if Snarky flips scum.

You don't get to expect me to have great insight into your scum meta and then actually toss out wrong/scum as something serious when yesterday is nothing like how I play as scum.

[Imperium]

Oh i should have finished reading Post 1033

[Imperium]

is it bad that i agree with scum!Severa that MoI is pretty fucking terrible?

@EVERYONE,

while it may not effect entirely my posting style, i fucked my thumb up really badly. like really badly. i think i dislocated it, and ill probably have to see a doctor soon, but for right now i think its dislocated and still untreated. therefore, my posts will probably be even briefer than before.

You should take a picture of it for proof. Preferably in front of any mafia pts you may be a part of and post it here.

Seriously though, hope it's okay!

[Imperium]

Because I'm 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt certain that Snarky is scum and the same is not true of CoM.
Why weren't you this energetic in 1672 huh?

Ehh, I could be persuaded.

Magna - This is what Nacho was referencing. I played with RC in newbie 1672 a couple months ago. He outed himself to me here, which Nacho thought was townish.

I don't agree with the practice as I think if you're going to play as an alt, you should play as an alt either secret to everyone or public to everyone and not out meta knowledge you wouldn't know.

But, outing that to me did let us know who he was right off the bat and therefore we had knowledge of his play style we wouldn't have otherwise. Nacho will probably explain this better though.

[Imperium]

RC, also wouldn't mind if you could remind me why you think Snarky is scun.

RC?

[Imperium]

Ranger would have no idea what Magna's scum game or town game looked like. He's been gone since 2012 and just came back. He doesn't have a finished game to his name since Ranger has been around.

The key word you're looking for here is 'finished'. MagnaofIllusion just coming back is no reason for me to be unfamiliar with him when I'm replacing into and/or reading as many games as I am. This can easily be seen by how much I stalk the replacement request thread. (I've been sniped when trying to enter plenty.) Heck, you can ask RC; he's seen how many games I've replaced into recently.

Furthermore, the tell I have for MagnaofIllusion is not specific to him as a player; it's specific to his playstyle which a few other players have. My go-to example is Red Coyote. It's vaguely similar to Titus's playstyle, but with a slightly different overall approach. If MagnaofIllusion were scum, his play would resemble what Red Coyote did in Twin Peaks. His play here is nothing like that. There are multiple things which show it. Tonality, what he's focusing on, the type of arguments he is making, all of these are different between that style of play as town and as scum and it only took seeing it once for me to instantly recognize it.

But.

You know I can't answer this in detail, and would never bring it up as town knowing I can't answer it in detail. I'd get modkilled or at least force-replaced if I did.

I'm busy right now, but i want to shut this shit down.

You're acting obtuse and like you don't know why I brought that. It had nothing to do with your ongoing games.

You're acting like you're not a well-established player recreating herself under a new alt. Everyone knows who you are, and no matter how much you deny it when people point it out to you and your main, you keep making posts like this that betray the fact that you have been here for years.

Also you are scum. But you know that already.

[Imperium]

Prod dodge.

Sorry, both heads are super fucking busy at the moment. I'm going to try to come back tonight but I can't promise to until Friday morning, but this will be my first priority when I have a moment.

Magna - I've told Nacho that you want him to answer a question for you. I'm hoping he'll get to it tomorrow, but it won't be tonight. As for the Ranger's alt question. It's not Faraday He doesn't play or even mod anymore really because he hates mafia now. It's Mastin. She'll deny it because she does every time someone points it out, but it's her. And sorry Ranger but my win condition is more important than you keeping your not really secret alt. Also, if you want to create a secret alt you should really stop slipping that you have meta knowledge you wouldn't have as an alt. If you're going to be an alt be a fucking alt. You did the same exact thing in Mafiaception when you tried to give meta reasoning for reading your partner you wouldn't have as a new player.

And Ranger as you're calling us scum for calling for a pushing lynch we believe in, I want you to think back to Machina mafia, you know the game where you were scum and we suspected you but then started to doubt and jumped off while pushing super hard for town to be lynched instead while still having you as a secondary scum read. Yeah, it was nice that town didn't listen to us and lynched you instead. You as Ranger would not know how to distinguish between me and Nacho enough to go oh if that's Nacho posting on one page then it's scum. And you know damn well this is not my scum game because you've been my partner twice. You can have fun explaining what our scum motivation is though I'd love to see the mental gymnastics you do for that one and what we thought we were going to get out of it. And you know damn well that Nacho is happy to post in any game drunk. If you were actually town here, you'd see the town tell for what it is. That he has too much respect for some of the players in the game and is taking this one seriously. We might be busy. We might be overloaded at the moment. We might have taken a step back last weekend and tried to reorient ourselves after having such a wrong read we believed in, but this is an important game to us.

Anyway, RC did you ever explain why you think SnarkySnowman is definitely scum? I didn't see it in my skim.

[Imperium]

I was townreading Imperium after the D1 lynch but they too faded away. I'd expect the level of passion they had for the Church mislynch would translate to today as they have big revelations based on the flip. I also found it odd that they agreed with my case on Radiant but didn't think to comment on it for a couple of days. If they really had a scumteam figured out overnight, I think they'd be excitedly pushing their new reads. Finally, I don't understand what Radiant did that suddenly made them unsure about him. Can't he fake frustration as mafia? Why was Imperium not in your list of low content posters?

As I said this game will be my first priority this morning. I do have other stuff to do so I'll be in and out all day, but I'll be catching up on today and rereading some stuff from day one that I want to reorient myself with. I did really quickly want to address this because it's easy.

If Church had flipped scum, you'd likely see the same passion that we had yesterday, but they flipped town and it's like our parachute strings were cut halfway down and we had some broken limbs to recover from. It doesn't feel all that great when you are 100% convinced someone will flip scum and you lead town down that way thinking you're right and then you're wrong. It's a whole lot different than when you lynch someone simply because you think they have the best chance of flipping scum but don't think you have everything figured out. So, stepping back and trying to recover a little is necessary, at least for me.

It wasn't that I didn't think to comment on your case for a couple days. We had every intention to push RC yesterday as that was the things that bugged Nacho over night and I was happy he agreed with me. Last Wednesday I just wasn't feeling good after work. I checked the game to see who died, skimmed your suspicions of RC which matched up to ours, went yay maybe I'll respond to him in a little bit but didn't, Thursdays are super long days for me, which brought me to Friday after which some things about RC made me rethink it. Later today when I'm catching up an posting thoughts on the actual game, I'll point out what had me second guessing.

We don't have a great big strong scum read on SnarkySnowman. I expect he'll probably flip scum, but my scum read is mainly on jmo and there are things that Snarky can't answer for. Snarky himself is problematic to read and is mislynch bait in his own right but other than him actually posting I haven't seen anything that makes me think he's town. Has he even said why RC is scum yet? It's hard to excitedly push on him when the crux of my case is that I hated jmo's calling people scum for town reading people too early yet not trying to negotiate why in that particular instance it was scummy so it looked like shallow weak reads to look like they were doing something. Then he replaced out and immediately signed up for another game. I will have to look back at him and at the cases people were making on him yesterday because they were things that I just didn't notice or didn't want to notice in my CoM is scum haze.

We do feel better about the Ranger slot being scum and that is one thing I plan to talk about more today. There are a couple things I was going to explain about the push that Ranger keeps claiming makes us scum and I'll talk about that later. This will probably be the slot I'll be most excitedly pushing. Ranger's push on us here is strikingly similar to how it felt when she was bs reading us as scum in Machina Mafia and her reads and reasons don't make any sense whatsoever.

We are kinda stuck on a third right now and in a back to the drawing board kind of way. I still think that some of the reads that Nacho went through yesterday and found decent town reasonings there are probably going to stay strong and it's the other reads that we'll need to flesh out. Even if we hadn't been as busy this week as we turned out being we'd probably be in somewhat observational mode until we felt like we had a footing.

Okay I have somewhere to be soon. But again, I'll be here at least on and off trying to get stuff done here today.

[Imperium]

if ranger is mastin why are their readlists different?

Because, surprise, Imperium is actually wrong.

I've seen the comparison between me and her made before.

The first few times I wasn't sure whether to feel complimented or insulted.

But by now, with every additional time the comparison comes up, I've pretty much figured out it's the latter.

I've enjoyed playing with mastin.

This right here shows that you knew exactly why I made the posts I did referring to your knowledge of MagnaofIllusion's play. Especially because I literally said that you were reestablishing yourself as a new alt. Never mind in mafiaception, I also made the same exact argument concerning your knowledge of BB and that I believed you were an alt and that's how I was reading you and your reaction to your partner.

You ignore that I clearly said that you were displaying knowledge you wouldn't have as a new player to claim that I asked you to talk about ongoing games, which I never did. After I point out again what I mean, you say that's what I was trying to do. I point out who I believe you are and you say oh people have made that comparison. Considering that I, in a previous game, have said I believe you're an alt and many others have on this site too, then it should be abundantly clear why I said what I said.

You trying to obtusely frame it like I'm scum trying to get you modkilled, why would I do that anyway, just shows how much scum you are. If you were town, you'd explain this oh so awesome way you can read play style type bs, but that you're not an alt like everyone believes you are. That you actually tried to claim I was trying to get you modkilled shows how much reaching bullshit you're putting into the game.

[Imperium]

I thought you were not science for a second RC

[Imperium]

Is there reasoning beyond just the defense of Snarky?

Well given that makes up a significant majority of their iso?

Not particularly. There's little stuff here and there. How they seem to say they support lynching SnarkySnowman today but are incredibly noncommittal about it, their interactions with others defending themselves from it, but it all ties back to that basic interaction.

Point out that little stuff here and there why don't you?

How is being noncommittal about a snowman lynch mean we're scum? What do we gain out of it in the event he flips scum?

What are those interaction defending themselves from it?

How does Snarky make up a signficant majority of our iso?

[Imperium]

They'd know Snarky was getting lynched the following day anyways so why burn towncred just to delay a partner's lynch?

I don't know.

Ask Nacho.[/quote]

You're the one calling us scum. Try to answer the question. Test your creative skills! Think of it like mafiananowrimo except you don't have to write 50,000 words.

I'm asking you because you are one calling them mafia.

I don't know Nacho well enough to tell you why he does something like that as scum. All I do know is that he does something like that as scum.

Besides, I thought we were doing it because we were trying to get on Magna's good side?

But while you're chewing on that one. Since you're trying to claim an Imperium, Snarky, Lowell team, why don't you tell me which one of us would expect to make it to the end? That's right we would. That would mean that we considered the rest of our team mates expendable and would want to keep ourselves under the best light possible, which would mean not shooting ourselves in the foot day one. I've asked you to go back and point out where it looked like we didn't believe our CoM scum read. I don't think you did that. As scum we wouldn't need that CoM mislynch day one, we could get it any day we wanted to. We didn't need to keep agreeing with Magna to keep him thinking well of us as I'm quite sure he'd forgive us moving and securing a scum lynch as that is always more important. Nacho might be a bit more of a risk taker as scum, he enjoys scum in part because you never have to feel like you've let your team down by pushing a mislynch so hard because as scum that's what you're supposed to do. Me? I do best as scum when I never have to answer for this. I suck as scum, I hate it, I'm not incompetent as scum but I have a weakness as scum I've never been able to fix. My strength as scum, I think anyway, is knowing how to interact with my partners and attain enough towncred here and there that I either don't leave trails to my partner or don't have to answer for crap like this.

If you can't answer what we hoped to benefit from our day one push and push away from snarky then you're not actually thinking about the game like you should OR you're bsing your reads. Guess which one I think you are?

[Imperium]

In Ranger's defense, she does reads list like that regardless of her alignment.

Snarky doing that reads list within a half an hour bug me. Also I was thinking about his RC scum read. He keeps saying RC is scum, but then said it wasn't 100%. He won't answer why RC is scum, and RC has said that he has correctly read Snarky before, so I'd kind of expect maybe a persecuted feel. If someone reads me correctly and then misreads me, I either suspect them and say that's why and interact or I'm bummed they're misreading me when they've done so well in the past.

[Imperium]

Think that Lowell is scum by his approach to my wagon but can't say for sure.

That's not fair.
That's not fair!
SnarkySnowman was yours.
Imperium was yours.
But.
Lowell was

mine

. He was supposed to be MINE! ;_;

I remember that this irked me... I'd made the most noise about Lowell, yet he is RC's apparently. & he was supposed to be Ranger's? & look at the sycophantic back patting for those other reads. Over the top buddying up with RC by Ranger. & why was Lowell chosen? Both scumz. If you make a song & dance about scum reading your team mate you get town credit when they flip.

What else didn't make sense about that is I don't remember RC ever calling us scum.

Other than that it's just a really fake post.

[Imperium]

I read SS's frustration more as 'wait what the fuck this is RC what do I do now' than what you read it as.

?

I didn't read his frustration in any particular way. Though I will be going over him today. I was pointing out the type of reaction I thought a town him might display that I haven't seen.

[Imperium]

I don't think I've ever played a game with Ranger that she's replaced into. I just know that she does contentless reads lists as a matter of course.

It was a bit overkill and read very fake to be like, 1, 2, 3, 7, some with minimal minutes between them. Yes, I know some people can read fast, but nobody can actually consider interactions, motivations, etc in a few seconds, I don't care who they are or think they can.

I'll look at you 1207 in a bit.

And yes, Snarky does get mislynched a lot. At least that's my experience with him. In part he does himself no favors because he doesn't post, sometimes completely active lurks, and doesn't answer questions. In Machina Mafia the only reason we were able to read him as town was because of the way he defended Ranger!scum day one and the way he interacted with that lynch. He was still mislynched the next day even though we argued against it. Otherwise I have no idea how to read him.

[Imperium]

See he does stuff like that. He won't answer why RC is scum, but he'll pop in to answer a simple question that he gets mislynched a lot. Probably one of the reasons he gets mislynched so often too.

[Imperium]

Well weak players can be scum too. Which is in part why I want RC to talk about his scum read there. I don't need a big case, just something to go on.

[Imperium]

I ended up getting busy with something else this morning. This game is still my priority to get caught up with today though!

[Imperium]

I have informed a certain tortilla covered with cheese and jalapeños that his presence is requested. Hopefully he will make it into this room tonight!