Open 672: Friends and Enemies and Enemies: Music on a whim

[cassielle]

1: I don't know, only my second game on site and my off-site games were "weird" games.
2: Hard to say. I don't think my "favorite" role is actually a role used here on this site. It was a really weird game.
Least favorite, probably bulletproof. I either play it like a VT or accidentally out a PR in the process of getting lynched. Need to work on subtlety.
3: Town, even though I suck at it.

VOTE: Hellfire Missile I don't know why a townie would have that kind of firepower. The collateral damage alone... Take out a city block or more? As town? Questionable. Makes you think.

[cassielle]

Why is RQS bad?

Are RQS and RVS mutually exclusive?

In fact, is it not arguably better to have both? Why would you not want both RQS and RVS, which is what we had?

Is it this specific RQS that is bad? Would you object to a replacement?

[cassielle]

So it was mostly that RQS in particular then. Cool.

VOTE: Superhans

I wonder how serious Superhans's vote on nebula is.

[cassielle]

Very. So? How about yours?

[cassielle]

Interesting. I expect to have even more interesting things to come back to later.

[cassielle]

So it was mostly that RQS in particular then. Cool.

VOTE: Superhans

I wonder how serious Superhans's vote on nebula is.

Why are you sheeping Nebula?

Very. So? How about yours?

Doubt it.

I am sheeping nebula because he feels fairly townie to me, based on this state of the game. So do you, for that matter. In fact, when you voted me is when I read you as town -- felt like a town reaction to someone seemingly not getting the obvious, which is why I didn't respond to your vote. Felt unnecessary.

And, beyond that, Superhans is my best bet for scum right now. Obviously a bit too early to be certain, but it's enough for me to chase that thread down, so my vote is serious.

@Realeo: Why do you think I was wanting RQS? What leads you to that conclusion in particular? There's a couple angles that those questions could have come from, why pick that one?

[cassielle]

@Realeo: Why do you think I was wanting RQS? What leads you to that conclusion in particular? There's a couple angles that those questions could have come from, why pick that one?

Uh... Why do you think I think I want you want RQS?

I endorse this product to break the wall of RQS.

Superhans's RQS had gotten shut down, and you voted me. My conclusion is that the two are connected. Are you saying they aren't?

[cassielle]

I know what his point is, and I'm not saying Superhans himself is scummy because of RQS. He's not even "that" scummy, just the best bet of the players who have posted so far, in my eyes.

As far as "interesting", it's genuinely interesting because it lets me know a bit more about him in experience level. It's not a "scumtell" or whatever, it's NAI. That doesn't make it any less interesting. I have an idea of how to read his future actions that I didn't have before, and I hope he acts more often when under a little pressure so I can clarify a proper read on him.

There's also the idea in there of trying to get the rest of the players to jump in and participate, or else I'd have been satisfied with the interesting answer without bringing up how interesting it is. Put another way: Discussion's beginning, there's meat for people to dig into now, that was the intention of bringing up "interesting".

[cassielle]

I'm very serious about getting a good read on him under some very light pressure. That doesn't require that he's scummy at all, I don't think, it just is good practice. And it happens to be the case right now that, IMO, he's ever so slightly south of null. Everyone else who has posted so far is hard null or slightly north, so I'll put the spotlight where I think it belongs.

[cassielle]

I've been working on the avatar thing for awhile, I'm just stupidly picky. Let me see what I can do.

[cassielle]

There. That better?

[cassielle]

@Realeo: In my experience, this early in the game being serious about a vote just means you've left RVS.

For the next bit: I said, best bet. "Best bet" doesn't mean "def scum!" It means "most scum" -- that's really not hard to do right now for anyone, regardless of alignment. So I'm uncertain because it could be town who's bad at game start, but it's feeling ultra-light scumlean to me. That makes me curious. So why not try and follow it up so I can either get a better feeling for it or discard the read on the basis of better, more AI posts?

And WRT the apparent contradiction, I think you're confused because of the missing context. nebula feels fairly townie to me, when you factor in that there's not a lot to go off of yet. So I'm sheeping him because:
A: I don't mind being on a wagon with him
B: Wagons get the game jumpstarted
C: And I sort of like his wagon at the moment.

And I get his point about RQS -- RQS isn't scummy, this one is just no good for scumhunting. I was asking questions about why he disliked RQS to get a feel for /his/ alignment, not Superhans's. Superhans isn't scum on the basis of using RQS. There is, I think, a certain amount of potential bad faith in his gameplay WRT nebula (bit of a gutread to be fair), and that's what I'm looking at.

@Big Lungs: I agree.

[cassielle]

Yeah, I'm maybe sorta misusing "sheeping" here, but I'm from offsite and just starting to pick up the lingo. I suppose "wagoning" is a better word? Something like that?

The fastest way to get a lot of AI stuff out of people is to push a wagon while most players are in RVS, IMO. When people respond against the wagon-pushers, question them. When someone jumps on the wagon, question them. The AI content level can go way up and before long, RVS is over because everyone has a lot of AI content to dig into. Evidence: your ISO and mine. Before I pushed on that wagon, very little from either of us. After, quite a bit from both. It's weird but it works for me. The wagon not looking all that bad comparatively is just a bonus, to me.

[cassielle]

26 feels NAI. It is a tone read though, yeah.

And my scumread on Superhans is my read. It has nothing to do with the RQS and more to do with how I feel about the interactions with nebula after he called Superhans out. See 55, especially the bottom of it. It's very weak, as I stated multiple times when talking to Realeo, but it's the best I have right this moment. I'm hoping to get more as more people step up and provide contentful posts.

55 also addresses the point of those questions in 18.

[cassielle]

Why? Any particular reason?

Hard null to me. Same with you.

[cassielle]

You don't see the change in tone? He gets a bit aggressive over just a few simple questions.

So you're scum reading Hans because you find the way he's choosing to scum hunt bad? If so, why? Why do you think he was attempting to scum hunt on Page 1? How can you agree with it being bad without giving it time? Why didn't you suggest a different set of RQS questions?

I got the same feeling of irritation from him from the very start. Might just be how he's approaching this game. It's a fairly weak townread, though, and if I see anything more AI from his end I'll re-evaluate.

No, no, the Superhans read is nothing to do with scumhunting -- the RQS doesn't do scumhunting well by the way it's set up. Because any AI questions have an obvious town answer, to the point that trying to pull a read out of any "non" town answers is WIFOM-hell at the best of times. That, in and of itself, is NAI. Could just be he sucks with RQS. It's to do with his reaction to nebula's critique of it.

It's a dumb phrase. An adjective full of conviction and a noun without it.

Hard null: I don't have the slightest idea what your alignment is, not even a tiny bit of an idea or intuitive feeling. For now, I need to see more of you. If a hard null read stays that way into the end of D1, I scumread them by default because town has no reason to hide alignment... Y'know, trust town to find town and all of that goodness.

[cassielle]

Why didn't you suggest a different set of RQS questions?

Almost forgot about this.

Because I saw a way to bypass that stage by jumping on a wagon with minimal explanation and implying I have a good reason to be there. I did see a (weakly) good reason to be there, but by not saying it outright it forces people to react. You can move right past RVS and RQS to the meat of the game that way. It's a risky move for town but it pays off often, so I take the risk.

[cassielle]

Yes, but earlier, too. See 14 for context and scroll downward. The responses of Superhans on that page are awkward to read and 28 has a... I dunno, it doesn't feel good-faith. It's a super weak read, again, but it's the best I got to go off of for now.

nebula feels a bit fishy at end of page 1, but 26 gives me a feeling that's just a general orneriness to his playstyle, and shouldn't be read into too closely -- yet. Good things come to those who wait.

[cassielle]

Oh! The game started!

VOTE: Superhans Now I'm feeling even more sure of my suspicions here. Feels a bit flaily, accusatory of those who are questioning him, etc.

I think I'm going to reserve judgement on TB, based on our last game together. He had a godawful town game there and I don't want to lean on his slot very heavily until at least like, D2. I want him to put a readable ISO together before I burn him at the stake instead of trying to interrogate his prod-dodging till his wagon sits at L-1 for three days.

But nebula I'm changing my mind on. Casually assuming a player with crazy flimsy logic for a townread is town? Ugly, even as a joke -- and a joke of that sort doesn't fit with my assumption that he's a naturally ornery player. Null for now, but I will be easily swayed.

Revan's not that great either.

[cassielle]

Yeah, it does seem to be the case. Even last game I played, that was one of three total good tells on a heavily-townread scum slot. Huh.

Good catch.

[cassielle]

Nothing about the plagiarism or even the RQS itself was ever why I voted Superhans, it has been from the start about the peripheral stuff. The things that people are focused on are NAI, IMO.

He reacts in a shady way to nebula getting on his case about RQS in 14, he has a bad-faith vibe IMO in his response to nebula's 26, and when TB calls him out, well, Big Lungs picks out the worst two offenders in 109. It feels like scum flailing under standard early game pressure to me.

I could still be wrong but it would take a very big AI post or someone acting obvscum as hell for me to change my mind right now.

But I support a Revan wagon as well, I just am not quite ready to get on board with it. I want more AI content from Superhans. Revan's slot will be there later if I still like it.

[cassielle]

1: You're projecting confidence onto my reads when yours is the only one I'm confident on.

2: Revan isn't looking great because of contentless posts, the RQS point brought up by Laudandus, a townread on the basis of shared townreads (meaningless), and blatantly failing to read the topic regarding people's reads on your slot. There's a teeny bit of AIness in each of his posts, and it's all scummy. Strong? No. But it's there, and that's enough for early game, yeah? p-edit: I never claimed certainty, I said I support the wagon. I can want pressure on a slot while not necessarily hard-scumreading it, this is in fact the basic rule of town sorting slots.

3: No, Big Lungs was just pointing at two posts I find particularly egregious. "Well I have a town answer in the other thread, go look if you're so concerned" doesn't sound like it comes from town, it sounds like scum trying to throw people off the trail by getting them out of thread to look up unrelated stuff. And you asked if Laudandus was going to unvote, which doesn't sound very town either -- trust town to find town, great rule of thumb. You weren't trusting town to find you if you are town, so bad town. If you're scum, it comes off as a defensive reaction, "get off my wagon". The scum reaction makes more sense, so I'm going to read it in that light for now. The other posts surrounding those two have a somewhat desperate tone to them, so I read it as scumflail.

4: It's not delusional at all, you twisted the meaning of it. I'm saying I don't want a wagon on him until at least D2 regardless of how he looks, because he has a bad habit of clamming up and looking like prod-dodging scum when he gets pressure as town. Letting him coast D1 gives us content to work with D2 rather than staring into the WIFOM abyss of either "is he prod-dodging scum or badtown or does scum want to make us think he's badtown" etc, or "did he improve or is he scum, or does scum want to make us think that he" etc., etc.

BONUS: Your tone switched hardcore when I pressured your slot. Like you went from semi-casual if a bit desperate to megaserious when I put the pressure on and brought arguments out. What happened? 119 and 120 don't read like anything else you've posted at all. And then 121 goes back to your normal tone. Explain.

[cassielle]

How can you read Laudandus as townlean because he got off your wagon with that argument? You're making a tiny thing fit a large narrative there yourself, aren't you?

[cassielle]

In fact, all of the arguments against my slot -- which were not spurious, in my eyes, but pretty well considered! -- were the same exact thing. Two or three people scumread me on the basis of the word "Interesting." Your argument, unlike theirs, /is/ spurious. I don't buy "small things fitting large narratives" being any reasonable counterargument. If it was a typo or a "scumtell" (e.g. referring to town instead of "we") then sure, that's a bit much. But what I'm seeing from you is not that.

[cassielle]

I dunno, the only one who seems to even possibly agree here is Lowell, who isn't putting forth any explanation for it. No one else has said outright that I'm making bad arguments. I think you're trying to say it's bad because you have neither a counterargument nor a good counterwagon to start on (hence your pushing the Revan wagon from a distance, because you have nothing to back that wagon except it not being you).

Anyone else having trouble following 130? I try to type clearly but occasionally fail. It reads very simply to me, I give examples of anything ambiguous, etc. and no one else has yet said it's difficult to read except Superhans.

Hoping TB can give us a reason why to townread Big Lungs, I'm not seeing it.

I might have a preliminary reads list here soon, though. Still a few too many nulls but we're getting there.

[cassielle]

To clarify my last post: "No one else has said outright" includes Lowell. I'd think he'd say something to help push my wagon if he thought my arguments were bad, but I can't be sure. Everyone else has no reason not to call me out and they haven't.

[cassielle]

I want opinions on Superhans's gameplay. I've done all the arguing I think I need to do in support of my position thus far and yet I'm feeling vaguely like I'm the only one with a solid read on his slot.

If you've got a read on Superhans, what is it and why? If you don't, what are you waiting to see from that slot before you have a read?

[cassielle]

I'm hardly "frigid", I'm scumhunting and you look scummy to me. It is not my duty to be kind, it is my duty to lynch scum. In turn, it is your duty to either get folks on your wagon by continuing to act like scum, or to get folks off of your wagon by a defense of your slot (hard) or starting a sensible counterwagon that looks better than your own.

Complaining that I am not nice when I've only presented how I read your posts and used that to build an argument for scum!Superhans is being a poor sport at best, and scum trying to get the pressure off by any means necessary at worst.

As for referring to people by avatars, I've seen it done before in a few games I've read and it's NAI. I don't know if an avatar change is modkillable, but I do think that worst case scenario, we dig up his early D1 readslist and go, for example, "So, uh, who is the dice again?" He picks out the name or he has forgotten who precisely he meant -- either way, no real big deal. I wouldn't consider there to be anything wrong with it.

Painting a picture of me as the Evil Scumlady who disapproves of all Fun doesn't help your case. Present a counterargument, present a counterwagon, or accept your fate.

p-edit: And constantly referring to everything I type as "garbled shit" is far worse than I have ever said of you. If someone else doesn't understand it, I'll rewrite it. For now, I'm leaving it as is because I have a feeling you're using that to deflect my argument.

[cassielle]

Semi-convincing arguments on Lowell, Joey_. Mostly things I've noticed myself, though I would say 149 was his very least town-ish post.

Question: do you think it's more like badtown or more like scum? I'm leaning toward badtown for the moment, but I could be swayed with a convincing argument for scum.

[cassielle]

My confident scumread on you is confident because of a small mountain of weak evidence, and repeated poor arguments against it on your end.

If the evidence is that weak, my argument should fall apart with a counterargument, but your only counterargument this far has been to say that the evidence is weak. And as I stated before, "weak" evidence was all anyone had to scumread me by, and yet they did. Why didn't you say anything about that? Were they wrong to scumread me on the basis of a single word, like "Interesting"?

If yes: why didn't you point that out? And: what is the standard of evidence to push a wagon, to you?
If no: why does it only apply when it happens to you?

Personally, to me, it doesn't take a whole lot for me to want to push a wagon. That's how you sort slots. That's how town wins games: put pressure on slots you distrust to see how they react.

Your reaction has not been good, and there's barely any pressure on you.

p-edit: I'll reply to 210 and 211 separately.

[cassielle]

210: The tl;dr of this post: You're being dishonest.
I already explained the TB thing, which has nothing to do with a scumread and everything to do with being able to get a read on him at all.
He lurks under pressure and prod-dodges until people lynch him because he's the best bet. As town. How can you sort a slot in those circumstances? You can't. So I'm saying I want to keep pressure off of his slot because I want him to actually play the game, not freak out and become unreadable. Since I did explain that to you already in 125, I know you're aware of what it meant and trying to misrepresent me.

The nebula thing has nothing to do with this either. Trying to frame that as me being super confident is dishonest: the most basic translation of it is "I'm no longer confident on this slot".

Beyond that, those aren't gut. I was summarizing. I gave concrete examples in a later post, and you proceeded to ignore them. Either this is intentional misrepresentation or you haven't read any of my posts yourself.

211: I'll rewrite it if someone else says they can't understand that. Because until then it's quite possibly a scum defense, and I see no reason to rewrite a post for that. I just said that, in fact, in 203. So you're either ignoring me or trying to frame me in a dishonest fashion.

Period.

[cassielle]

Semi-convincing arguments on Lowell, Joey_. Mostly things I've noticed myself, though I would say 149 was his very least town-ish post.

Question: do you think it's more like badtown or more like scum? I'm leaning toward badtown for the moment, but I could be swayed with a convincing argument for scum.

Assuming the question is directed at me : i think #149 could be seen as opaque town trying to get reads like "Rev we now have different reads, do this change your reads on my slot?'' hence why the mason read is pinging me hard

It was directed at you, yeah.

I don't know, that would seem to say "no" to mason. I can see where you're coming from (in that it seems to come from a known-alignment mindset), but it's doing the opposite of what it would do if it were actually a known-alignment mindset -- it's asking if reads are flipping on a slot that should know Lowell's alignment. Which makes no sense for masons, they have no reason to ever necessarily scumread each other. Might work for scum, but not masons. So scum or bad-VT, those are the only options I see.

[cassielle]

Number 4. Now you've failed to read or remember your own post.

[cassielle]

120 has the context for those replies in 125.

[cassielle]

@Joey_
That's fair.

@Realeo
That makes sense, I suppose. I'm not familiar with anyone but TB here, right now, and I don't really hold with meta, but I'll take it into consideration.

@Superhans
I didn't pick out mistakes and portray them as scumreads in my last post. I portrayed them as dishonest, which I was pretty sure they were. If they were mistakes, cool. But that doesn't make my logic bad, that means you haven't paid attention to what I've written.
If you can't put up with defending against me, start a counterwagon. Sure, it won't get the pressure off right away. Nothing is going to do that though, even if you did everything perfectly -- reads change slowly. EDIT: Basically, what Joey_ said.

p-edit: I've played my share of mafia games offsite, but I am new to this particular site and I don't know the culture necessarily. So I can accept the "noob" bit.

[cassielle]

Yeah Big Lungs needs an explanation for that townread, definitely. I do not see it.

Joey_ definitely feels very town to me. Helpful demeanor, actively trying to sort every slot with info to sort it by.

@Superhans: Sorry I'm making the game unfun for you, but... yeah, it's just the playstyle I have. I'm trying to play to my wincon and I'm not actively /trying/ to be bitchy to anyone in particular in the process, which is really as good as I think you can ask online.

If you're taking offense to my posts, I don't really know what to say. Except that I'm not talking about you-as-a-person when I post, I'm talking about your-slot-associated-with-your-posts, maybe? No matter who turns up scum or town or how they /play/, I'm pretty sure they're decent enough to talk to outside of the game. All of my posts are purely about the game and not the people.

It might not help but I can't think of anything else that would. I don't go out of my way to make people miserable or whatever, I'm just trying to play the game.

[cassielle]

Neat! People didn't post too much while I was passed out.

VOTE: Superhans Now I'm feeling even more sure of my suspicions here. Feels a bit flaily, accusatory of those who are questioning him, etc.

Where was Superhans flaily and accusatory?

He reacts in a shady way to nebula getting on his case about RQS in 14, he has a bad-faith vibe IMO in his response to nebula's 26, and when TB calls him out, well, Big Lungs picks out the worst two offenders in 109. It feels like scum flailing under standard early game pressure to me.

How did you interpret these as flaily?

Superhans seems in those posts to be trying to desperately deflect attention or pressure, to me. (Which is what I mean by flaily.) Wants Town to go to another topic to look up a nearly-irrelevant conftown RQS answer set from a totally different game that he was cornered into admitting he /didn't/ use in /this/ game. That says "go somewhere else, get confused, lose focus, come back, forget what your train of thought was." It's not even linking meta, it's like ... anti-meta? It's weird as hell and self-sabotaging to say regardless of alignment, unless you just want to diffuse focus from your slot, weaken player convictions on said slot, etc. Which is a scum thing, not a town thing.

Asking Laudandus to get off his wagon without making a case that he should do so - then "townreading" Laudandus jumping on the Revan wagon... That feels like the same sort of desperate attempts to relieve the pressure on his slot, and it implied up until 224 that Superhans intended to scumread anyone who questioned his slot. 224 slightly weakens my case here, but it still could just be scum who realized that scumreading anyone who scumreads him is going to fail in a big way.

In the posts before those ones, there was also stuff like framing nebula's 26 as not making a point about the RQS set he used being awful ("more relevant than whats your favorite sausage" is actively missing the point, since no one was saying a thing about relevance) and questioning me about the seriousness of my vote before answering me about the seriousness of his. By itself that last one would be NAI, when read in context it looks not-so-good -- there's a consistent attempt to deflect or diffuse suspicion in the earlier posts of his ISO, pointing the finger away from him without regard for what he's pointing /at/.

Later posts begin spinning up spurious counterarguments (small things fitting large narratives, my evidence is weak, etc.) without actually addressing the why, how, or logical flaws in those arguments themselves -- essentially, argumentum ad lapidem. See: here.

Either way it doesn't feel like town saying "Y'know what, your arguments suck", because they would back that assertion up with reasons why it sucks and be able to point out concrete examples, and other players would point at it like a bird dog (which didn't happen). It feels like scum saying "GET OFF OF ME" because it's scared of even light (L-5!) pressure, because that pressure means suspicion and spotlight.

Hasn't made a good counterargument, hasn't started a counterwagon, just is trying to brush me (and other suspicious players) off of his slot. Isn't trusting town to find town. So, I'm scumreading the slot. If you disagree, I'd like to hear it.

I'll separate different replies out from this one because this one is big: it's summing up my argument for pressuring the Superhans slot to see how he reacts, and saying outright I want people to try and tear it down, because I'm confident it's a good argument and can stand up to scrutiny.

[cassielle]

Think clash in our arguments will be inevitable but it doesn't mean we can't be friends.

Yeah, absolutely. I was in a TvT for most of my last game with a cool person and I think we're still friends anyway despite slinging "scum!" back and forth at each other. I really don't like it when things get personal in games, and I try to avoid it. No worries, man.

I've been working on the avatar thing for awhile, I'm just stupidly picky. Let me see what I can do.

There. That better?

Someone changing their avatar for someone else in game ? You can call that ogi but i have never see anyone care as much as to do that for someone else, this might be AI

omg she did not even have an avatar at the time

Truth. I had no avatar before post 51.

I dont like this kitty guy much

Why?

Yeah Big Lungs needs an explanation for that townread, definitely. I do not see it.

What townread? The one on realeo? I just read what he posted and was like yeah this guy is town and then I posted it

Nah, this:

I. Still. Don't. Understand. Why. People. Townread. Big. Dungs. Dk.

Laud how is not wanting to be scumread indicative of scum? No one wants to be scumread.

It's not "not wanting to be scumread", it's a deflection of attention involved with getting rid of the scumread. Town should in most cases try to start a counterwagon, scum can't afford to ignore the pressure.

Big Lungs is being transparent by sharing reads early.
Cass's posts hurt to read, it's hard to ignore her tone. Normally, I would think cass is scum. However, she is actively posting and contributing.

Explain. My tone just seems to be "try to logic through the game" to me?

[cassielle]

I fail quotes. EBWOP:

Laud how is not wanting to be scumread indicative of scum? No one wants to be scumread.

It's not "not wanting to be scumread", it's a deflection of attention involved with getting rid of the scumread. Town should in most cases try to start a counterwagon, scum can't afford to ignore the pressure.

Big Lungs is being transparent by sharing reads early.
Cass's posts hurt to read, it's hard to ignore her tone. Normally, I would think cass is scum. However, she is actively posting and contributing.

Explain. My tone just seems to be "try to logic through the game" to me?

[cassielle]

Case why are you andwering questions for other people? Do you think scum will ever get caught if you do that?

I answered one question there that I felt was an easily-missed attempt to strawman. I left every single other question not directed at me alone. Why are you treating it as if it's a habit of mine?

[cassielle]

It was seeing how you would respond so I can sort your slot better, something I do an awful lot. Have you seen me put strange questions to other people? Perhaps Superhans? Or nebula?

If so: Why is it something you only care about when it happens to you?

[cassielle]

They aren't that different, they're all meant to be provocative so that they won't be ignored. The responses I got from Superhans, for example, showed weakness to a push. nebula did in fact ignore my question, which I will deal with when that slot picks up its activity. They're also supposed to get responses from the other players so I can get better reads on them.

Your response taught me something about you, but if I hadn't taken the opportunity or phrased it as I had, it would have ended up being nonexistent or, most likely, NAI. I don't like NAI content -- town puts out a lot of it when feeling no pressure, and scum hide in the resulting mess.

Question: unless I'm mistaken, this is the second time you've found someone suspicious, and both times they were leaning on your slot. Your ISO is rather barren compared to a lot of other people's, your townread-reasoning was thin on the ground and in one case based on something NAI at best, and you've been posting a lot of NAI content. You don't seem to want to sort slots, just to sit back and gather info, but you also don't seem to be a strict lurker. Were you hoping to coast?

[cassielle]

Laudandus, I'm hardly townreading Revan but you're pushing that slot, asking people to sheep, and not backing up your read.

1: What gives?
2: Why?
3: Have you considered any other slots at all?

[cassielle]

Revan is my only serious read, I'm still mostly null on everyone else, except Joey (slight town, for reasons I made a post about) and Superhans (slight scum, I don't like immediately townreading me for getting off of him). I haven't gotten real feelings about anyone else either way, and I'm waiting for more interaction.

Revan has less content than me, Joey_, Superhans or Realeo -- less even than Big Lungs DK. Every post from Realeo is arguably AI.

Why don't you have a read on my slot or Realeo?
Why do you have a better read on Revan than Joey_ or Superhans, when they have very high content-to-fluff ratios and large postcounts compared to Revan?
Why don't you have a read on Big Lungs DK, who has more posts and a fair few high-content ones to work with on top of that?

I will accept that no one else (yourself included) has put enough out to be read well.

[cassielle]

I think that given how slow this game is moving, if you're waiting for more interaction to decide on reads, you're going to have a bunch of nulls well into D2.

Why not lean on more slots that you're null on to get reactions?
Do you think that you can't lean effectively on a nullread slot?
Do you think that pressure reactions are bad for gathering information?
Do you think sitting back and seeing what people do without pressure is a better way to get reads on them?
Do you not value asking Big Questions of your own devising instead of seeing what other people have to say?
Do you think that your play is too weak to create a proper push on a slot without help, hence asking people to sheep you WRT Revan?

[cassielle]

@Tenshii

Why are you focusing on the weaker portion of Laudandus's argument?
Can you spot the part you ignored in your 306?
Do you know why that part is the stronger half of the argument?
Can you see a town narrative for Laudandus trying to bolster the weaker half of his argument?
Can you see a scum narrative for Laudandus not regularly reinforcing the stronger half of his argument?

[cassielle]

Also, after consideration of the newer batch of posts, I'm weakening my main scumread: Superhans is scumlean. I'd move my vote, but I'd rather not jump wagons while Laudandus v Tenshii is unresolved, I feel there's a significant possibility of scum being in there. I want more content from both of those slots before I move wagons.

[cassielle]

I covered all of Laudandus's arguments. I did not ignore anything. If I did, lmk.

It's possible that Laudandus is town but it's much more likely for Laudandus to be scum than town.

@tenshii

It seems like a scumtell to me because from a scumhunting perspective there is no way the most interesting thing in the thread to you is answering the questions - there's all this fighting going on around the questions and you don't even acknowledge it?

I think it's pretty lurky, and therefore scummy, though it's not the biggest tell ever obviously

Arguably the non-bolded implies he scumreads it because it's lurky (which would be NAI) but I think that its AI independent of lurkiness or lack thereof.

Laudinus is town. He isn't getting lynched and neither am I. Please don't make me claim.

I'll be posting tonight.

Are you retarded? TB?

This was screwed up to say, but I agree with the overall point.

TB, have you even read the setup? It's open, there's no reason not to look at it.

If I didn't know how you played I'd vote you right now and try to herd sheep on board, but you don't do well under pressure. I want content from you on this.

[cassielle]

Btw i still call it bullshit

-> Mason has no reason to out there
-> TB's townread wasnt even wagoned, no reason to claim to save him
-> his reaction to my ''role fishing'' is goddam stupid, hes probably a town who tried to claim mason and then fos anyone who poked the claim, omgusing there is a townie move but its not a mason one

I agree with all of this -- except the last bit.

OMGUS is a playstyle move, I've found, not AI or even PRI. I'd say any role or alignment in any combination can OMGUS.

p-edit: WRT TB being Town/Scum -- it doesn't matter. I thought about this for a long time: we're near guaranteed to get a NK flip regardless of alignment now, which will sort his slot for us.

Remember that scum is trying to take out the other scum team as much as (or possibly more than) they are Town. Even if he acts like confscum till EOD he's now a bad lynch target. Time to sort other slots.

[cassielle]

I see where this is going. VOTE: Joey_

Pile on, town.

[cassielle]

Joey_, you're fishing for the other masons. That is either incredibly stupid town or scum jumping on an opportunity. If you hadn't thought this through before, you'll have ample opportunity to think it through while I hound you to the lynch.

[cassielle]

FTR: Personally, I don't care what Joey_ claims at this point. The maybe-mason-maybe-scum who is going to flip on the NK tonight anyway wants him lynched, no one has CCd TB, no one intelligent regardless of alignment is going to, and VT is a relatively small price to pay for getting a badtown or defscum slot out of the game.

There is no reason not to hang this slot.

p-edit: Masons should claim D3 unless they get pushed hard D2.

[cassielle]

I'm not so sure about self-vote=scum, I self-voted as town in my last game out of frustration -- but!

Actively trying to out PRs is scummy and anti-town at the same time. Actively holding back reads before death just because is playing against wincon unless scum.

Joey_ is definitely a policy lynch.

[cassielle]

No, I want your lynch regardless of policy. I just know better than to hang it on the self-vote. It's /everything else/.

[cassielle]

L-3. Town should get on Joey_, he's playing counter to a Town wincon by default, actively threadcrapping like confscum does, etc. Three more votes, so we can get back to scumhunting.

p-edit: Hey, you counted too!

[cassielle]

You can't be sure it's against his own personal wincon unless you know his alignment TB. That was over-the-top -- he might have been scum this entire time. I'm sorta glad you're a guaranteed NK a bit? That was a shitty move.

p-edit: You can advocate a lynch on really awful town within a town wincon.

[cassielle]

I have actively tried to get multiple slots to produce AI content. There was a point where most active slots in the game thought I was defscum and none of them kept their votes on me when I explained myself.

Make a case.

[cassielle]

Yes, the claim was awful. But it meant he was a guaranteed NK and that means that talking about possible partners does nothing for Town. It cannot help, it can only hurt. The town thing to do there is to STFU about possible Town Masons and get back to looking at slots for scum potential.

You persisted when called out by TB, and I voted you on that basis.

The associative or whatever is irrelevant. Treat Laud as conftown unless AND until TB flips scum, that is the /smart bet/. You can question it a couple dayphases down the road, but D1? Doing anything else is horrible for town, regardless of how crap the read is or even if it's made up of whole cloth. Thou Shalt Not Out PRs As Town.

Make a real case.

[cassielle]

It doesn't matter. We have days to go yet for this game. Laud's ISO is not going to disappear at end of day. We will have all the time in the world to sort his slot properly. Asking TB to take a hard stance on Laud's role is equivalent to trying to out a PR, period. I will not discuss this further, it's scumfodder.

Make a case that doesn't involve talking about unconfirmed, unclaimed PR slots and I'll go over it with you. If you want to continue to make this about TB and his potential partners, discussion is over. L-4, Town needs to hammer you flat.

[cassielle]

@Joey_
TB's bad claim is not the reason I voted you. I have said this already, more than once I might add. The reason I voted you has to do with your repeated insistence on talking about unclaimed, unconfirmed PR slots -- NOT TB.

If you say I voted you because you questioned TB's crap claim again, I will be forced to assume you are actively lying about me to further your wincon and I will say as much in all further arguments against your slot. Read this line again, so it sticks.

TB's claim is relevant only inasmuch as you used it as a chance to rolefish other slots. He's now a guaranteed NK regardless of alignment. Questioning the validity of his claim is ridiculous, yes, but not anti-town. Rolefishing for the other potential mason slots is anti-town, pro-scum. Period. Your argument against that interpretation is irrelevant and I will not accept it.

@Laud:
I don't know why scum would coordinate NKs vs town, when it'd be easier to scumhunt, coordinate a compromise lynch on town, and then NK the other scumteam. That's all I got on that part. I don't/can't see a scum mindset in my posts and I don't know the first thing about defending against that theory since it presupposes I'm scum, so arguing against it would necessitate assuming I'm scum in the first place.

All I really have to say in my defense for you in particular is that there's no reason I can think of for scum to be as transparent/open about their thought process and strategy as I have been. I can't see a world where TB doesn't get NKed (he has a 50% chance of being the other scumteam from either POV) and I see no reason not to share that so we can focus on finding the scum.

p-edit: This game is moving lightspeed ATM, if I get this post out it's by actively ignoring the past few posts in favor of actually contributing.

[cassielle]

Here is the problem.

Yall can disagree with my thought process and everything, but this is how i approach the game and if im being scumread because i wanted to bust open a scummy claim then lynch me, i wont change my playstyle

The idea of "busting open a scummy claim" doesn't matter in multiball. Why? Each scumteam not only needs to deal with Town, they need to deal with another scumteam. A scumteam is more dangerous than a group of townies without a Vig, because the scumteam can wipe their scumteam out in a single day, while town requires at least two days. As a result: someone makes a scummy claim. At this point, regardless of alignment, they are a definite NK. If they're town, scum gets a good hit and denies town information from NKA -- they were obviously pinging a scumteam's scumdar, it was a scummy claim after all! If they're town, scum gets a good hit and reduces the difficulty of their wincon. Scum loses nothing by taking the shot.

In other words, leaning on a scummy claim is not important in this game. It wastes town's time.

p-edit: It almost seems like you've forgotten.

Yall can disagree with my thought process and everything, but this is how i approach the game and if im being scumread because i wanted to bust open a scummy claim then lynch me, i wont change my playstyle

Lynching someone for game disagree that arent AI is bad play @cass

If you say I voted you because you questioned TB's crap claim again, I will be forced to assume you are actively lying about me to further your wincon and I will say as much in all further arguments against your slot. Read this line again, so it sticks.

Please tell me if I'm reading this incorrectly, but you seem to be implying I'm wanting to lynch you because you leaned on TB's slot again. I'd hate to push you to L-1 before you brought that up.

And remember: I'm not /just/ scumreading you. I think your play is sufficiently anti-town that even if you are town, it is pro-town to get you out of the game. It just so happens that I also am confident that this lynch will hit scum.

[cassielle]

1: The not being aware of how multiball works is IMO NAI -- scum can be as unaware of it as town -- but tends to lean town. I was looking to see how you'd respond to that, and right now I'm slightly townreading you based on 464 but you're godawful town.

2: The "obvious NK" thing is crucial to the "why" of "don't pay any attention to that claim or the other slots it may or may not have softed as other PRs, look for scum elsewhere". It's a wasted lynch to look there at best, and actively giving scum free information-free targets to take out on days 2 and 3 at worst. Outing PRs destroys NKA until they're all gone, which is incredibly anti-town.

3: Lynching anti-town town can be better than lynching scum in multiball, because scum can hide in the general criticism aimed at that one slot. Not to mention earlier on you were spamming the topic like scum caught by a cop claim do, to the point that posting, to say nothing of scumhunting, was impossible. And on top of that, let us assume a world (not very unlikely, really,) where TB is scum. In that world, the other scum will take care of him anyway, lynching him means that we have wasted our lynch -- so no matter how scummy that slot is, the lynch is better spent on someone who is disrupting the game and not appearing to follow a town wincon.

[cassielle]

I townread Superhans and I didn't move my vote for a bit until I found a better target. And you, well, I would not be sad to see you gone regardless of alignment, truthfully.

You let me worry about where my vote is. I didn't tell /you/ where to vote, after all.

[cassielle]

Realeo: Those reads are pinging my "NO BAD" sensor. In a town way, but still.

If one lynch is wrong, your whole townblock needs re-examining. The only slots listed are the lurk slots. Town did this in my last game on D1 and both slots ended up being town -- TB and me (replacing in on a lurk-slot). That did put one scumslot under fire afterwards, but that scumslot cleared itself really quickly after being replaced out.

I kept on needing to break down the inane townblocks all game long, and only the IC actually called out the scumteam. It was a mess.

Let's not post gamesolve readslists on D1. That way lies an endless trail of MLs.

p-edit: No worries, my vote isn't going anywhere until I find someone else I want to lean on.

[cassielle]

So, I agree with realeo's 492 completely. Honestly, I think he's thought about this scenario a little too much. And too carefully. The subtle way he comes back later with a short-list of killables also reads scummy to me. Not sure how he narrows it down to three there. I should for sure be on it, but so should several others.

This feels like crap.

1: The standard for his silly readslist is obvious: activity, with TB out of the running because claim. This is the exact criteria for the list. I pointed it out (loudly calling it bad and a guaranteed train of MLs) and he accepted that it was a good point (implying agreement with it being a bad list).

2: Having put a lot of thought into these sorts of things myself, by your logic I also must be scum. In fact, anyone who's put any significant amount of thought into scumteam motivations and best strategies has to be scum by that same logic.

However: Town has more reason to think these things through than scum. Here's a town narrative. If you know (or can figure out) optimal or near-optimal scumteam strategies, you can watch for signs of them to pinpoint scum, and you can manipulate scum into giving town certain information (e.g. flips) because the only way to deny that information would be to increase the difficulty of their own wincon.

Therefore, on the basis of the above, I think your Realeo scumread is crap. How do you respond?

[cassielle]

Oh, good, so I wasn't the only person who thought Lowell looked like scum there!

I do think it's important to say that town can benefit from helping to coordinate scum NKs in a multiball setup, but I think that it should be considered a scumtell in this case because it only works if town is subtle about it. Lowell practically jumped up and down screeching it there.

@Lowell, your counterargument to my post WRT your Realeo scumread (539) was a transparent deflection and it made you look worse.

1: Transparently calling out for scum NK coordination. Let's say this is NAI for now, because the remaining two are, in my eyes, more damning.
2: "Realeo seems like a smart guy. He's trying to figure out what to do." is blatantly NAI. Town can be smart, Town had better be trying to figure out what to do. In other words: misrepresentation of intelligence and tactical play as AI. Everyone had better be dumb or else they are definitely scum. Catchy, but godawful play.
3: "One of the scumteams ought to kill him." after you voted him suggests you want to waste a town lynch on someone you think is (or should be) an obvious NK target for scum. That is a pro-scum play: wanting to make the only weapon Town has misfire. Even if it hits scum, it's a slot that you think is a goner anyhow, so you should know this is a horrible lynch target.

There's also the gem of 552:

Everyone stop listening to TB and calm down. Lowell isn't scum, and I doubt joey is either.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I personally did not once "listen to" TB. I made my own reads based on my own view of the game without sheeping anyone else's reasoning.
That, the "everybody sheepin' TB!" thing, that was Joey_'s deflection tactic when people were wagoning him.
You're sticking your neck out to save a slot widely considered scummy town. Joey_, the slot whose deflection tactic you just borrowed.

So you've just tied yourself to Joey_.

Your vote sits on Realeo, who you have suggested would best be left to flip by way of NK. Meanwhile you cast shade at anyone examining your slot by implying they are all sheeping TB, and defend a slot who was under little pressure (widely townread despite town agreeing it was incredibly scummy play, in fact), indeed, a slot whose wagon had lost momentum and whose critics had turned their eyes elsewhere.

On top of this you claim that good NAI play is scummy WRT Realeo, transparently talk about coordinating NKs, intend to push a lynch which you claim should get NKed anyway -- which, if it succeeded, would deny town the chance to nail two scum with one lynch -- and have no real defense for your actions except for the aforementioned shade casting/sheepvote implicating.

VOTE: Lowell

[cassielle]

There's those things and the fact you didn't actually respond to my criticism of your read, you deflected. You never responded to anyone who criticized you in fact, you just waved vaguely in the direction of TB and muttered something about sheeping.

There's also the fact that you weren't just "setting up a lynch", you were setting up a lynch on a slot you expect to be killed anyway. Consider: if you trust your reasoning there you know that that slot will flip even if town lynches another slot. Ergo: Town lynching another slot is better, because twice the information and twice the chance of hitting scum. Therefore: Continuing to sit on that slot and push its wagon is denying town a better lynch. QED.

And the fact that you colored "being a good Mafia (as in the game) player" as "being scum". That's a big one there, if anyone buys into it, it makes town distrust anyone who shows good play.

p-edit: If you don't think you can get him killed, you should try to draw AI content out of him or look at another slot. There are four scum in this game, that's three players who (if you are town AND correct) you could be leading a lynch on instead of sitting your vote somewhere functionally pointless by your own admission.

[cassielle]

Can we just assume that Lowell is lynched?

For the time being, Alban/Nebula haven't talk. I want them to make read before filp. After done, we can hammer Lowell.

The perspective of someone proceed to D2 without making obvious stand in D1

scares me

.

I agree here. But we can just keep him where he is until we get a chance to pressure the hell out of those slots.

Where I'm at, Lowell is the lynch of the day but that doesn't mean we need to stop scumhunting. That also doesn't mean we need to put our votes elsewhere and risk him slipping the noose. Keep him at L-2 so no one lol-hammers and wait for alban and nebula.

Oh, also:

1- even if I were scum I would still be scumhunting (probably even moreso), so I'm not sure what you're saying with the last point. I have two suspects I like, I'm not going to abandon them without reason.
2- you specifically and deliberately "tied" me to joey. if that's not setting up lynches I don't know what is.
3- realeo being good at mafia means he's less likely to get lynched unless someone (i.e. me) tries to powerlynch him. otherwise we all just sit around limply targetting whoever looks weakest at that moment.

1: All true. But if you don't think you can push them hard enough, you need to add to that pool instead of fighting an uphill battle. Focusing on a slot you don't think you can put sufficient pressure on means your vote is contributing nothing (unquestionable) and your gameplay is (probably, there are occasional exceptions) not helping other players sort slots. And I do hope you want to help other players sort slots.
2: It's only setting up a followup lynch if you flip scum. I still read Joey_ as godawful-town -- as I've mentioned multiple times -- and I was stating there that I think you and him are probably the same alignment. If you're town, that critique doesn't hold.
3: True enough for most players, but I tend to target really good players sooner or later, just to make sure they really earned that townread. It tends to be after I have all the other slots sorted well (between late D1 and mid D2). Generally speaking, really good players still make mistakes, and I will jump on those mistakes when they show up.

I'll answer Tenshii in another post.

[cassielle]

I covered all of Laudandus's arguments. I did not ignore anything. If I did, lmk.

It's possible that Laudandus is town but it's much more likely for Laudandus to be scum than town.

@tenshii

It seems like a scumtell to me because from a scumhunting perspective there is no way the most interesting thing in the thread to you is answering the questions - there's all this fighting going on around the questions and you don't even acknowledge it?

I think it's pretty lurky, and therefore scummy, though it's not the biggest tell ever obviously

Arguably the non-bolded implies he scumreads it because it's lurky (which would be NAI) but I think that its AI independent of lurkiness or lack thereof.

So you're saying that lurkiness is AI? Or you're saying that because Laudandus is scumreading the lurkiness, it is AI?

I'm saying the lurkiness is irrelevant and I don't think he should have brought it up there (but that feels like a NAI mistake). What IS relevant: he dodged (and if you haven't noticed, has continued to dodge!) active discussion, implying that he doesn't want his slot to be sorted. This is different from lurkiness: lurkiness is purely to do with activity, NAI. Not wanting to be sorted can take many forms (ignoring the discussion du jour, fluffposting, acting out when called out, even lurking on occasion) but it tends to be scum-motivated.

[cassielle]

EBWOP: The person who mistakenly brought up lurkiness being Laud and the discussion-dodger being Revan, in my last post.

[cassielle]

@Revan, why are you still dodging my questions? In addition, why aren't you voting Laudandus if you scumread him?

This post here is a practical example of what Laud should have stated instead of lurkiness, by the way. It's not "not posting", it's "not posting about anything that town wants to know".

[cassielle]

Ok. Why?

Lowell-slot has posted more content than I have experienced with scum-Lowell. Weak meta, but it's enough to sway me.

I personally don't go by meta. It's more useful for deception than reads, once the meta is in the open.

Even if your cases are rehashed stuff from earlier down the thread, give me your big wallpost breakdown of your reads on those two slots. We haven't seen enough of you this day phase and I'd like you to produce a fair sized lump of content for us to work with.

Also, your favorite scumread outside of those two slots and your best townread would be nice.

[cassielle]

The same logic applies to Joey_ asking about Laudandus. scum!Laudandus can bank TB's read/Mason claim on Laudandus. A scum!Laudandus that makes it to lylo instantly wins the game. One of Laudandus or ThinkBig should hardclaim Laudandus's role before the day ends.

There is no way all 3 masons will be dead day 2, so this is not correct d1. Also, I think it is reasonably likely (but not necessarily the case) that you are scum trying to figure out who the masons are.

Technically speaking, there is a way. It's a bit of a gambit and a little convoluted, but the math works out. Fortunately it can only work if Town isn't vigilant and the scumteams are really good and willing to work together for D1 to undermine town.

This is, of course, why you should NOT talk about who the damned masons might be. Let us not bring up masons again today. I will powerlynch the next person to seriously bring up masons. Drop the subject.

That this needs to be said at all is indicative of many really bad town and/or scum in the townblock (which is why I'm wary of Realeo's last big readslist).

[cassielle]

Oh, if nebula wants to say TB, he can.

It's indicative of not wanting his slot sorted, which is indicative of scum, but he can definitely just say TB if he wants to. I have no problems with that.

[cassielle]

I think I have enough to make a decision on Big Lungs DK now, which makes me comfortable posting a readslist finally.

TB is not on it for obvious reasons, and alban and nebula need more content before I can read them properly.

Town: Big Lungs DK, Realeo
Townlean: Laudandus
Nulltown: Superhans, Joey_
Null: Tenshii
Scum: Revan, Lowell

Spoiler: Explanations of reads here.

Big Lungs may play drunk but I haven't seen a single thing I can grab onto and yank him around with. His posts scream LAMIST at every opportunity, there are surprisingly few mistakes and they feel incredibly genuine. He shores up townie arguments and breaks down scummy arguments in little ways. I'm going to need to find an opportunity to shake his slot before end of D2, but it's pretty much a formality: it would take something fairly ill-considered for me to change my mind on this slot.

To defend Realeo, I will pose a question: can you think of a scum narrative for his posts? I can't. He's playing focused, orderly and perceptive in a way that screams town. He ignores the cruft and cuts to the core. "Too slick" is experience indicative, not AI, and no other argument fits the bill. I still need to give his slot a proper shakedown, but again -- D2, formality.

Laudandus and I have similar trains of thought -- I can guess what he's thinking (evidence available in 584 and 595), I follow his logic as a general rule, and while our playstyles are different the motives seem transparent to me. It's funny that he vaguely scum-reads me but I think he's paranoid of being pocketed? Or maybe my play is just that unusual, I don't know. Anyway, I've seen a few things I could grab and shake around for better reads, but they aren't worth it in the current gamestate.

Superhans had nothing but bad behavior going into the game, but he reacted like terrified/bewildered town under sufficient pressure, not scum. If it came down to dueling wagons between him and anyone above, though, I'd hammer his slot without a second thought.

Joey_ is godawfulbadtown or okayishscum. I think that the moment to calm down and bring his toys back to the playground while still in a defensive position makes him more likely to be town than scum, but I'd vote for him over anyone but my bottom three reads right now despite that. Even the lurkers would get a pass. There were multiple hints of serious bad-faith from his corner: my townread is primarily tonal and effectively probationary.

Tenshii has a lot of scumhunting vibes but doesn't give us much of anything back. He draws AI content out of everyone he targets, but then offers thin, neutral answers to questions aimed at his slot and generally feels like he doesn't want to be pinned to an alignment. Trying to place the slot in a proper context is impossible, as a result. It's unsortable. In a standard setup he'd be town, but in multiball he's a total unknown (almost sort of a "minimum viable player") and I don't like it.

Revan is a weird slot with vibes I can only characterize as scum: dodges every attempt to sort his slot, posts reads without anything resembling good explanations for them, and actively ignores ongoing discussions. In fact, he usually seems to prefer to avoid them altogether, preferring to post when they're done and over with. That's also when he takes a stance, if he does at all. See e.g. 467 where he takes a stance on the Joey_ debacle only after the dust settles, using a self-congratulatory tone and posting two reads which have no obvious basis. He actively dodged my 276 and has dodged Tenshii's questions all game long. The slot does not want to be sorted by any means. He forces everyone to essentially guess at his alignment because he can't give anyone real content to work with. I had to stretch to grab onto his slot and shake it around, and he still managed to shake loose, act like our discussion had never occurred, and ignore my last question. And then he tries to rolefish on the sly in 555 while no one's paying attention to his slot. (Good catch @Superhans!) This slot is a good lynch. But Lowell is still a better lynch.

I've made my case on Lowell.

@Tenshii: Do me a favor and loudly take a hard stance on one of the big events going on around you. You've made noises about a couple but they seemed flabby and easily slipped out of. Take a solid, no-questions-asked stance here on me v Superhans, the Joey_ debacle, and/or the Lowell debacle. Don't bury it in a bunch of crap, even if it's just one line, color and bold it or give it its own post or something.

@alban: All I want or need from you is what I asked of Tenshii: take some hard stances. Explain yourself if you have the energy, but the stances are the more important part here.

@nebula: I'm going to be forced to scumread you if I can't get a read on you by D2, just FYI. Nullreads on D2 are indicative of lurking scum, scum in the townblock or a serious pressing need to sort slots over again (e.g. due to associatives or NK flips). Only one of those can apply to your slot given this gamestate.

[cassielle]

It bothers me that people seem to just accept town!cass like a consensus.

VOTE: Cass

You would only found out later whether this vote is genuine or for luls.

Make a case.

[cassielle]

Cass is also obviously scum for pushing the die for being tied to me. She said she started to townread me, never unvoted but vote someone she thinks is my partner (and its absurd)

If she townread me, she wouldnve unvoted
If she townread me, she wouldnt vote anyone she think is tied to me
If she scumread me, she wouldve continued to push me
If she didnt scumread me, she wouldnt scumread the die because hes tied to me (someones she scumread)

Her actions makes no sens aand are the defition of opportunistic scum

This is trash.

1: I kept my vote on Superhans for a longtime after I started townreading him. What I stopped doing was pushing for his lynch actively.
2: I am voting Lowell because I scumread him. Your townread is probationary: I reserve the right to retract it and call you scum again for any reason whatsoever.
3: I don't, so I didn't. This point literally makes my case for me.
4: This is nonsense. I scumread Lowell for reasons unrelated to you, you just feel like his potential partner. If he flips red, you should flip red. Conversely, if he flips green, you should also be green and thus not be a lynch target.

You are actively lying about my actions by this point, because I have spelled all of this out on multiple occasions. What is your town motivation? Explain yourself in depth instead of pushing me with outright lies when someone votes me out of paranoia and you smell blood in the water.

[cassielle]

1: It is valid because it's a playstyle difference. I stopped pushing both wagons. My vote still being on them could be for any number of reasons, none of which I will share. The only thing scum gets out of this is smacked by VCA if someone else pushes the wagon to the lynch. I will move my vote off of someone who claims a PR immediately as a general rule, and otherwise keep it where it's at until I find a better target.

2: Your "probationary" townread is on thinner ice than average reads for me. I require strong evidence or a mountain of weak evidence to move my reads around usually. You, it would not take much.

And WRT 4: I have seen some incredible scum theater before. At one point it looked like a player with a no-bussing-ever meta was going to take his scumpartner to the lynch. That means I don't set limits on how far distancing can go in these games -- because the answer is "all the way to the hammervote".

[cassielle]

Still waiting on that case against my slot, Realeo. Just in case you forgot.

[cassielle]

Can we finally agree that cass is opportunistic and scummy? Or am I just going to do this by myself?

This needs a massive amount of elaboration, especially after it's obvious it's not "am I just going to do this by myself"

Still waiting on that case against my slot, Realeo. Just in case you forgot.

I refuse to reveal it until distant future. I still yet to reveal whether that vote is for real or for luls.

Cool move. More realeo votes please.

Weak argument. I could have continued to press for his case on me after that but I got the picture and shut up. You somehow missed the boat despite his (really dumb, in a town kinda way that's also consistent with his playstyle this game) reply to Superhans.

Who's townreading Lowell? Speak up, we want to

devour your soul

hear your thoughts.

[cassielle]

2) Cass's read on Laudandus pointing out that lurkers lurk.

This is not what I said. This is in fact exactly what I pointed out was /not/ important or relevant.

So you're saying that lurkiness is AI? Or you're saying that because Laudandus is scumreading the lurkiness, it is AI?

I'm saying the lurkiness is irrelevant and I don't think he should have brought it up there (but that feels like a NAI mistake). What IS relevant: he dodged (and if you haven't noticed, has continued to dodge!) active discussion, implying that he doesn't want his slot to be sorted. This is different from lurkiness: lurkiness is purely to do with activity, NAI. Not wanting to be sorted can take many forms (ignoring the discussion du jour, fluffposting, acting out when called out, even lurking on occasion) but it tends to be scum-motivated.

If you're going to quote me, do it, don't blatantly claim I said the exact thing I clearly dismissed.

[cassielle]

If Laud is mason, shouldn't he be doing town things?

Can someone tell me how Laud is being town.

If you can't, than he's not mason, and not town.

No one is talking about the damned mason read. The simple fact is there is no point pushing this slot D1. The thin reasoning Tenshii pushed in favor of that has been torn down by myself and Big Lungs and others besides. We can deal with this after we see the nigh-guaranteed flip of TB, and D1 we have no benefit in pushing it. Period. Town gains nothing out of it they couldn't get D2, scum potentially sees where the PRs lie before town can make use of them.

Why can't you bring any real argument against the slot?
Why are your pushes always ill-considered and lacking reasoning to back them up?
Why are they (and your only scumreads) always people who have leaned on your slot before you pushed?
Why are your only townreads baseless and uninformative?
Why do you dodge every active discussion and refuse to put your slot in positions where it can be easily sorted?
Why do you refuse to comment on major events outside of the aforementioned baseless reads?
Why does your entire ISO look like you want to avoid scrutiny and put the spotlight anywhere but on you?
Why have you still not answered Tenshii's questions?
Why do I think that if you answer any of /these/ questions, they'll be the ones that are easiest to come up with NAI or town-ish looking answers to and you'll conveniently avoid all of the more important ones?

That last one's rhetorical, but I'm hoping it will get you on the ball and engaged instead of continuing to dodge and dodge and dodge. Your slot stinks of scum. Give me a really good reason to think otherwise.

[cassielle]

And just to finally kill this "Lynch Laud!" discussion: you can all hold me to this, if I survive to the next dayphase I'll push Laudandus /myself/ so we can sort that slot. If I don't, lynch me on principle.

D2. Not D1.

Look elsewhere for today. We have at least two slots that need to contribute and who have seen no pressure thus far (nebula, alban). We have an ultrascum slot that is continuing to coast (Revan). We have two slots that need more people to take a solid stance on them (Joey_, Lowell). We have no townblock (which I'm okay with) and no consensus on reads. We have so much else to work on, and pushing Laud is not helping any of this. Laud's slot isn't going to magically become confMason between now and D2, and if anyone treats it like that they need smacked upside the head to begin with. So forget Laud for D1.

[cassielle]

And just to finally kill this "Lynch Laud!" discussion: you can all hold me to this, if I survive to the next dayphase I'll push Laudandus /myself/ so we can sort that slot. If I don't, lynch me on principle.

D2. Not D1.

Look elsewhere for today. We have at least two slots that need to contribute and who have seen no pressure thus far (nebula, alban). We have an ultrascum slot that is continuing to coast (Revan). We have two slots that need more people to take a solid stance on them (Joey_, Lowell). We have no townblock (which I'm okay with) and no consensus on reads. We have so much else to work on, and pushing Laud is not helping any of this. Laud's slot isn't going to magically become confMason between now and D2, and if anyone treats it like that they need smacked upside the head to begin with. So forget Laud for D1.

But i also agree with this, the wifom is bad tho

I get the feeling, I just don't want town getting distracted by shiny baubles when we don't even have a consensus on reads. I'm willing to corner myself a bit to keep everyone focused.

[cassielle]

TB claiming took all the energy out of this game. We're just spinning our wheels, it feels like.

"Okay Lowell, then why don't you do something about it and be more active!" ~everyone
"Ugh." ~me

There's this thing where everyone is pointing at one or two slots and saying "WE MUST KNOW" but either we get nothing out of doing it or the people who are the most convinced on those slots aren't willing to lead the push.

This includes me.

On the basis on that little bit of self-realization:

VOTE: Revan Please answer each question in 680. Line by line so I can be absolutely certain that you didn't weasel out of any. No more dodging. Get talking or get walking.

p-edit: This is an odd game, I can't really blame him. My last game was like this, so I was just expecting it, sorta, but it definitely isn't much like other games I've looked at.

[cassielle]

NAI, playstyle/personality indicative (maybe)?

I don't know how nebula plays, but some people do a lot of VCA as they go. In a low-moderator-activity game that falls apart a bit.
I also don't know you much, but it could be like what happened in my last game where I targeted an aggressive player who proceeded to destroy the fun of the game for me. I then decided to never ever fight him again. Ended up getting pocketed unintentionally, my original intentions after the fight were to stay neutral on his slot and let town handle him, but I ended up townreading him.

Hilariously, he ended up being scum, but that's neither here nor there.

Combined with the huge amount of replacing in this game, I'm going to give it the benefit of the doubt and say NAI, and wait for his replacement to show up to give a read on his slot.

p-edit: I dismiss meta as a general rule. Using it seems NAI on this site but I actively try to ignore arguments from meta.

[cassielle]

FTR: all that said, I don't think it's unfair to scumread nebula on the basis of refusal to share a readslist or take hard stances on issues town has been discussing. I think it's still null, but I can see the logic of scumreading the slot on that basis.

[cassielle]

Agreed, TB.

Superhans, I'm the one being voted there and I'm not worried about it. I think there are people who should be worried about it, however, and I'm pretty sure you aren't among them.

As for why Revan, I have been saying over and over he's scummy as all get-out (check my readslist in 614 for why) and yet I wanted to keep my vote on Lowell. Lowell made a good point -- everyone is stalling, no one is doing anything, and everyone is going to say everyone else needs to do something. So I'm going to get straight answers out of Revan one way or the other, and I will go back to Lowell later.

[cassielle]

Just realized!

MOD: My vote didn't change in your last VC, I'm voting Revan. See 688.

[cassielle]

I'm using "red" as a catchall term for "scum" there. Obviously "orange" is just as likely, and mentioning it out right pointlessly complicates the post. I'll write a big post WRT the rest, but the tl;dr: you've mistaken a stylistic thing as AI, misunderstood my style of scumhunting and somehow taken simplifying posts as AI (and scumteam indicative).

[cassielle]

1. I'm really having trouble seeing Cass stand on competency.

So competency as being smart is NAI?

2: "Realeo seems like a smart guy. He's trying to figure out what to do." is blatantly NAI. Town can be smart, Town had better be trying to figure out what to do. In other words: misrepresentation of intelligence and tactical play as AI. Everyone had better be dumb or else they are definitely scum. Catchy, but godawful play.

but uses a lot of incompetence argument as AI?

On top of this you claim that good NAI play is scummy WRT Realeo, transparently talk about coordinating NKs, intend to push a lynch which you claim should get NKed anyway -- which, if it succeeded, would deny town the chance to nail two scum with one lynch -- and have no real defense for your actions except for the aforementioned shade casting/sheepvote implicating.
VOTE: Lowell

I do think it's important to say that town can benefit from helping to coordinate scum NKs in a multiball setup, but I think that it should be considered a scumtell in this case because it only works if town is subtle about it. Lowell practically jumped up and down screeching it there.

1: The key thing there is that competency in that case is one-sided. In the case of the things I scumread him for: that's either incompetent town, or scum of any competency level. Logically speaking: if any scum can do it, but only badtown can to it, it's probably scum. This is because of the likelihood of belonging to each group: if we say "badtown" is the bottom 20% of players, than 1 in 5 players is badtown, which works out to 2-3 players in this setup. But 100% of scum can do it: which works out to 4 players in this setup. Statistically speaking, he has a better chance of flipping red (as in scum!) on this basis: period. The numbers are right there.

2: He had a chance to pull himself out of the fire by claiming he was unaware of these things. I still would have scumread him, but more weakly.

3: This, like many things you listed, is putting pressure on a slot for the purposes of sorting them properly.

In addition to that, cass favorite gun: "You have a poor reading comprehension? You scummy lying bastard!"

This is trash.

1: I kept my vote on Superhans for a longtime after I started townreading him. What I stopped doing was pushing for his lynch actively.
2: I am voting Lowell because I scumread him. Your townread is probationary: I reserve the right to retract it and call you scum again for any reason whatsoever.
3: I don't, so I didn't. This point literally makes my case for me.
4: This is nonsense. I scumread Lowell for reasons unrelated to you, you just feel like his potential partner. If he flips red, you should flip red. Conversely, if he flips green, you should also be green and thus not be a lynch target.

You are actively lying about my actions by this point, because I have spelled all of this out on multiple occasions. What is your town motivation? Explain yourself in depth instead of pushing me with outright lies when someone votes me out of paranoia and you smell blood in the water.

If you say I voted you because you questioned TB's crap claim again, I will be forced to assume you are actively lying about me to further your wincon and I will say as much in all further arguments against your slot. Read this line again, so it sticks.

1: I stated all of these things outright in plain language multiple times in the thread. This isn't reading comprehension, this is reading the game at all.

2: In the cases you provide above, I gave Joey_ chances to fix the behavior in question. Read it yourself: these are warnings that this is scumpinging me, and he can fix it by no longer doing the things that are scumpinging me. I didn't call him scum for that, I said I would call him scum for it if it continued. That's a conditional, which means conditions must be met before it becomes the case.

To a certain degree, I concur with Lowell:

Honestly, cass, your case on me is tedious. It feels like you looked around, thought, "hmm, who is a safe bandwagon", then reverse-engineered a ponderous case from nothing. I can't respond to any of it because it is all just too much. My case on realeo is bad so I'm scum. I'm setting up lynches so I'm scum. Something something joey. That's some preponderance of evidence.

I responded to all of that: in turn, I didn't scumread him for his case on you being bad, I never claimed he was setting up lynches (I claimed he was choosing a lynch target that makes no town sense, feel free to check for yourself), and he forgot or ignored two key elements: coordinating NKs in the open, and not having any defense or argument in favor of himself.

2. Cass activity makes no sense from town.

When I say activity, I mean confidence.

Because here's the thing: what makes scum hunting from scum is different to scum hunting from town?

Their association scum hunting.

You would see that cass has actively doing association scum hunting.

4: This is nonsense. I scumread Lowell for reasons unrelated to you, you just feel like his potential partner. If he flips red, you should flip red. Conversely, if he flips green, you should also be green and thus not be a lynch target.

But never cass considered Lowell mafia and _Joey werewolf or vice versa, especially the fact that they cass scumread both of them "independently". If you iso cass, he never mentioned "werewolf". Is it because he is "werewolf"?

I mentioned one association, with Lowell. Before that I targeted at least two and (depending on how you want to define it) up to four slots and didn't mention associatives. This second argument falls apart in the face of the facts: it came up once. And I scumhunt on associative reads as town anyway (feel free to check my last game), so if this /were/ true (and it is false) it would be indicative of my playstyle, not indicative of my alignment.

p-edit: I'm still very sure Realeo is town, he just doesn't vibe with my style (because it's aggressive and direct, probably). TB, what the hell are you doing?

[cassielle]

TB... do you think that if every reason you saw to scumread someone ends up being incorrect or based on flawed reasoning, you should still remain on that wagon? I mean, /I/ do it, but I'm an anomaly as a player in a lot of ways. Do you think that's town play?

[cassielle]

she seems acutely aware of this setup being multiball.

I had the same feeling and pointed it out

Be aware that that is NAI. Being vigilant of the setup and its pitfalls is not the same as being scum: all alignments benefit from remembering it.

[cassielle]

I'm not feeling this meta-scumread on Superhans. Can you give a case that isn't based on meta? For me personally, meta is about as meaningful as that silly "talking about 'red' team is indicative of werewolf" thing that Realeo fortunately realized was a spurious argument.

[cassielle]

alban is nowhere near as scummy as Lowell or Revan.

Here's an experiment: Look at Revan's ISO, compare to how many times people have questioned his slot: he never answers questions, rarely takes a stance on issues at hand, and doesn't actually seem too invested in what's going on at all except with his occasional out-of-the-blue self-congratulatory pushes and baseless townreads. I at least got the opportunity to question Lowell. Revan? I've twice tried to properly interrogate him and he just dodges and dips out for awhile and comes back acting like nothing ever happened, posting about "let's push Laud!" or "I townread this person but my reasoning is crap or nonexistent".

[cassielle]

Like for real I want someone to point at a slot that feels more like scum trying to coast than Revan's, because even Lowell has put down more AI content and has engaged people scumreading him. alban has arguably more town-indicative content than him, and he's barely posted, barely played the game as of yet, while Revan's been semi-active from game start.

[cassielle]

That votecount is disturbing. Does anyone else see why?

[cassielle]

There are too many wagons and all of them are weak, TB.

6 wagons, 2 with 2 votes and the rest with 1 each. If all of the people not currently voting jumped on the Lowell wagon (for example) right now, we still couldn't lynch without someone jumping off of their wagon.

Town needs to coordinate pushes and not let them fizzle out. Every time we push a slot it's getting more and more half-hearted and it peters out faster and faster. At this rate by end of day we'll end up agreeing on some compromise mislynch to avoid ending D1 with a NL.

[cassielle]

I don't scumread Superhans's 792, but I see that he is missing the point. So are you. Interestingly, it's in the same way: It's not about "Just push your favored slot," it's about "compromise now on slots to push (not lynch) so you don't have to compromise on slots to lynch (not push) later." If no one is on your favorite, but there's two votes on your second favorite, jump on your second favorite for now so we can sort slots. After they're sorted, then we can focus on who's scummy enough to hang.

And Lowell calling what I'm talking about scummy is the least sensible thing he's said out of an ISO of nonsense. This is pro-town no matter how you look at it: if we leave slots coast, it's bad for town. If we can't get a coherent push on a slot to get a pressure read on it, it's bad for town. If we can't sort all the slots to some extent by end of day, it's bad for town. There is no arguing this -- it's factually superior for town to have a way of treating each slot in the game, it's factually superior for town to be able to agree on the likely scumslots, it's factually superior to challenge slots that are going under the radar.

Lowell, explain yourself other than "oh, you're scum because someone you townread is pushing me on the basis of your post". In fact -- while I'm at it!

Why does scum want town to start getting their crap together and pushing slots so every slot is readable?
Where were you when Realeo made a push on my slot?
Why haven't you said a word about that if you scumread me?
Why do you think I'm scum but then fail to make a real case?
Why do you want to further spread the votes out?
Why are you putting pressure on a slot that is in the process of being replaced out and thus isn't going to respond to you?
Why are you consistently anti-town in every way?
Why would town!Lowell do any of this to begin with?
Why can't you explain yourself when pressed?

VOTE: Lowell

[cassielle]

I never said a damned thing about Lowell simply changing his vote. Not once. In fact I agreed with him earlier that sitting in place is going nowhere.

I said something about his vote going on a slot that isn't active, (is being replaced, in fact), that he has no real case for, and which no one is on a wagon for. In effect, splitting up the votes so in the end we need a compromise lynch to move forward. This is not the same as merely "changing your vote" -- it's leaving out the most important part, "BADLY".

I now /also/ have something to say about him not answering a /single/ question aimed in his direction by me.

WRT compromise, conviction, etc: I disagree on "equally convinced", but conviction is an important part. Right now, I think any lynch is going to be a mess outside of Lowell and Revan, who are the only two consistently scummy players in the game thus far, because we lack information. You don't get information by sitting on your hands, you get information by going out, grabbing someone and starting a wagon on them to see how they tick.

The problem with "equally convinced" is that it means no one will ever agree in this current gamestate, because everyone has their own favorites.

That is the entire reason compromise is important right now -- you need to push a wagon and if no one can agree on a wagon to push then no wagons get pushed, period. After we pressure enough slots to sort them properly, it should be very easy to say "So let's lynch X".

Joey_: PoE is crap right now because a full potential half of the scumblock is inactive and we have 2 scummy players that no one is leaning on. And town can't get their shit together well enough to focus on a slot at a time to sort, so this isn't going to change. PoE works when you have a large enough townblock to work with, and we can't even agree on a core 3 or 4 townreads. That ruins PoE because there's not enough to eliminate from.

[cassielle]

I'm not convinced. That slot is being replaced and it had nothing to work with properly before being replaced.

[cassielle]

You're arguing from meta, and meta isn't convincing to me. Your PoE when theres nothing to eliminate from isn't convincing to me. You don't have a clear case outside of "PoE says so", and that is not convincing to me.

I'm not going to sheep you on your say-so. I'm going to evaluate the situation and vote on a wagon that I feel has a reasonable chance of giving us something, anything to work with. I don't think voting a player who can't respond for an extended period of time will tell us anything. It will probably fracture the town's focus even further.

And the one who lied about replacing out was alban, nebula has not posted since requesting replacement.

[cassielle]

Dice has done scummy stuf, Superhans has done scummy stuff, cass you also did some shady shit but i have reason to not lynch every single one of those, tenshi outed good townie stuff but isnt giving more content so im not going to vote there, nebula slot tho imo scumtold in theire like 10 posts

and the replacement itself was a lie

That's why I brought up alban. alban lied about replacing out, not nebula.

[cassielle]

And I already dismissed that argument when you asked me about it. It doesn't convince me. See 694.

[cassielle]

I'm not convinced. Simply repeating that you're always right makes me less convinced. If you want to convince me, make a case that doesn't reply entirely on meta and you being really good.

I am open to changing my mind. But I do it on evidence.

[cassielle]

@Cass I don't wanna bother with ISO'ing you vs Superhans so give me a TL;DR.

I'll ISO Lowell in a bit though. FTR, I thought it was decided that Lowell was today's lynch already.

I did too. Now people (Joey_, IIRC?) are reading Lowell as town which I understand 0% and I'm throwing my hands up in frustration. I'll push that lynch to the death at EOD but I won't be surprised if town sheeps a godawful compromise mislynch judging by how we're going about things.

As far as the Superhans/me thing (and Lowell), I thought you had taken stances on those already? Town SH, null me, scum Lowell?

And with my Revan push: Revan has not contributed much -- okay, NAI. He outright avoids any and all scrutiny? Give me a break -- he does absolutely nothing that will bring him into the limelight after his garbage townreads in the early game got called out, where is that NAI? Either you're lurky town who is ALSO dismissive of the importance of getting their slot sorted, (say the percentage of the bottom 20% of town posters who also don't care about being sorted)... etc.

I made this argument with Lowell, and the numbers still do not lie: it is far more likely that he is scum than it is that he is town, even if there are motivations from both alignments, simply by the fact that it'd have to be a 1/20 or lower chance of him being town, but it's roughly a 1/10 chance of being scum (if we assume that only cautious scum will do it -- otherwise it's a 1/5 chance).

WRT Laud, I don't want to push that slot this dayphase for reasons that have been discussed to death by multiple players. I refuse to go into this again. D2, I will sort him and Realeo by force, or I will be dead (from NK or because the town lynches me for lying). Hold me to it and drop the subject or lead the push on my wagon.

[cassielle]

EBWOP: I actually forgot the exact player numbers. The real numbers make Revan look worse as town (below 1/12 -- he'd need to be a special snowflake indeed) and have about 1/3rd chance of scum.

[cassielle]

My bad then. I'll reread later on and figure out who I'm thinking of... someone was trying to build a town!Lowell narrative, though, I'm pretty sure.

[cassielle]

As far as the Superhans/me thing (and Lowell), I thought you had taken stances on those already? Town SH, null me, scum Lowell?

Lolno. Technically yes, but no. I stated those were surface level reads before I iso dived into them. Then I asked for the TL;DR on SH v Cass because I didn't want to go through that.

The TL;DR is uninformative: I pushed Superhans on a bunch of very weak arguments (intentionally) to see how he'd react. He buckled under the pressure eventually and said he thought absolutely nothing would change my mind and began to scumhunt elsewhere. Based on the tone of this I townread him and moved to looking for other cases myself. It was a defining aspect of the very early game, I was openly setting the pieces in place as early as page 1 and actively explaining everything I was doing every step of the way. It's one reason why I find people saying that I "push weak cases" very amusing.

I made this argument with Lowell, and the numbers still do not lie: it is far more likely that he is scum than it is that he is town, even if there are motivations from both alignments, simply by the fact that it'd have to be a 1/20 or lower chance of him being town, but it's roughly a 1/10 chance of being scum (if we assume that only cautious scum will do it -- otherwise it's a 1/5 chance).

What is the numbers/odds argument?

Basically this:
The group of people who play town and who would have any reason (up to and including playstyle) to act like Revan is very small. A reasonable estimate IMO would be, the

lurkiest 20%

of

the least concerned with sorting their slot 20%

of

all town players

(so 4% of all town players).
On the other hand, at the very least I think any scum who is remotely cautious could hit on the playstyle because it is outwardly NAI and will remain that way for a long time until the player list thins out. Let's call that 50% (the half of scum players who are more cautious than risky).
4% of 8 (number of town players this game) is 0.32 -- so less than a third of a chance that even one town slot in this game could think to act that way. 50% of 4 is 2 -- so half of the total scum players this game could think to act this way. (This doesn't take into account their specific individual playstyles, of course.)

In the post you quoted, I was eyeballing and estimating things instead of doing the actual math, and had forgotten the exact number of players in the game -- the actual work being done looks worse for him, IMO.

Obviously, I'm asspulling the starting percentages. I really hope you didn't think I had some sort of objective source here, or even that I thought they were remotely objective. They're really open to interpretation, and therefore abuse, but the basic idea is sound since it's just an extension of the German tank problem, the Doomsday problem, and similar statistical arguments. I think that Revan's playstyle is unusual enough (not producing /any/ content when pressed?) that it's an unlikely town style, and yet plausible enough (because it keeps him from being sorted) as a possible scum playstyle. Thus follows the numerical argument.

I tried my best to keep the numbers on the good side of plausible, but feel free to play with them. Even if you should bump up the numbers I use for groups of town to 50%, for example, you still hit at least break-even on town vs. scum, which is still AI because there's more town than scum (2-out-of-8 chance is 1/4, 2-out-of-4 chance is 1/2 chance -- so you should at the very least heavily press slots like Revan's as a general rule).

And FTR: if you aren't convinced by this -- that's cool. It shouldn't, ideally, be convincing to anyone, but town is swayed by the strangest things, so I do silly stuff like this on occasion on the off chance somebody says "oh, I get it now!" The real takeaway is that even if both alignments can do it, town is less likely to want to.

[cassielle]

See the last line.

[cassielle]

Cass, superhans has given us meta that revan does this as town. I think this raises your 4% to 100%, no? Do you find this argument unpersuasive?

Tenshii, I am on my phone and can't give you a better explanation than I have. Re-read my post, I think I clarified the multiball point well enough.

I find meta in general unpersuasive. Players can abuse it to mislead as often as not. I've had meta bite me in the ass more times than it has helped me.

Besides, I think you're unclear on what I'm talking about doing. Pushing a slot is not the same as powerlynching a slot. They start the same way and one can lead to another, but a push is intended to create AI information under pressure, a powerlynch is intended to remove a player from the game.

[cassielle]

A push without intent to Lynch is pretty toothless

The threat is in the fact that I can just change my mind on the fly. I feel that I'm not very predictable as a player or people would have an easier time sorting my slot (I'm mostly okay with this, I haven't hidden my motives or intentionally failed to answer questions), and so while I might go in just wanting to sort... if a slot ends up sorting low enough, it could become a powerlynch. Hell, even if it's not my decision -- some other player could decide my arguments are good and powerlynch them. There's the risk of lolhammers if it goes far enough, even.

Obviously, if there was no risk of lynching, yeah, it'd be toothless. But they look identical and they can switch places easily, even without the consent or agreement of the original wagon-pusher. Therein lies the threat.

You are assuming that I am dying to be in this game and that I am scum.
Was being considerate. Some people asked me to stay and I stayed. As simple as that. Do not distort intent.

I was assuming nothing of the sort. I was misreading what Joey_ was talking about and correcting him using his own words. If I thought you were actually a liar, I'd have pushed you by now.

[cassielle]

The word narrative is like a safeword or secret agent password for varsity debater like me, depending on who you ask.

Tenshii, I am on my phone and can't give you a better explanation than I have. Re-read my post, I think I clarified the multiball point well enough.

Yea I still don't get it.

@cass

Are you a varisty debater IRL?

Yooo that would make so much sense if she was. Or maybe she's like an English major or something.

Not a debater, I've actually never engaged in "serious" debate IRL. I'm actually a Lit major, ha! I have done my research and talked to people about debate, logical arguments, etc. though, so I can see how people would get the vibe -- I know things that someone else in my position normally probably wouldn't, definitely. (This isn't meant as bragging or whatever -- I'm still probably amateur hour compared to people who have a lot of practice.)

This is actually pretty good stuff. I know enough about Realeo from that alone to say I won't actually need to push that slot, just pay attention to his arguments. Tenshii I can't be as sure on, but I'm adjusting my evaluation of that slot as well on the basis of this.

And yeah, I think it was you who was putting forward a town!Lowell, but I swear there was someone arguing against scumreading Lowell... Or maybe it was another slot? I don't know, and I can't find it now, so I'm going to chalk it up to bad memory.

[cassielle]

His pushes r trash, I don't agree with anything he has said.

The first person who says this about me in any game is scum. Sheer opportunism.

Soooo determined yet ur vote still remains on nebula for literally no reason at all.

Not no reason. I like new wagons. So, a weak reason, but a reason.

What was the word that Laud used for this? Toothless. That's right.

If you're voting a wagon you have no basis for scumreading, and you're scumreading someone you aren't voting, that's toothless. There's no conviction where the threat lies and no threat where the conviction lies. It's garbage play by any measure, you've made yourself harmless, a non-threat. You refuse to lead a push on any slot, you just poke a finger in the direction of someone and say "Them, they're scum" and sit back and watch who sheeps you. Occasionally the push, belonging to someone else by that point, peters out, and then you poke them a few times to remind them where they're looking. Your ISO is full of this toothless shade-casting and conviction-free voting, with occasional content-free "oh don't forget that X is scum" posts.

By this point only Joey_ is on the same wagon as you at all, but he's the one pushing and you're the one sunbathing on the top of that wagon, making tiny, dismissive gestures toward the gallows when the momentum falters.

If /anyone/ is townreading Lowell, tell me now. Make a real good case.

[cassielle]

Oh and any time I criticize you you say my case is empty, "ponderous", baseless.

What is yours, then? I'll live with ponderous, but that's the weight of evidence there, pal. Your cases are emptier still, and the only basis you have is "because I say so", worse than even Joey_'s frantic waving at meta, always-being-right, and "trust me."

[cassielle]

This is actually pretty good stuff. I know enough about Realeo from that alone to say I won't actually need to push that slot, just pay attention to his arguments. Tenshii I can't be as sure on, but I'm adjusting my evaluation of that slot as well on the basis of this.

What are you adjusting? And on what basis?

Essentially, I know how Realeo ticks now. It throws all of the stuff I was "I'm not sure but it feels sorta town?" into "Aha, he's a debater! Now I know how to parse his train of thought and everything he does clicks. I know where to look for scumtells in his posts now."

I don't know what you are, but you agreed with Realeo and then also threw in English major. You're at least passably educated and somewhat intelligent, that much is clear, so I can toss out any read that is based on gross incompetence or stupidity out of the gate -- there is a very low likelihood of you being badtown or badscum for instance. You're going to be on the good side of the player skill hierarchy, which means I'm going to need to watch how you talk and what tactics you use, good or bad.

This also means that for you two, meta is essentially meaningless no matter who is using it to read you: if you don't actively disrupt your own meta outright, you are almost certainly "saving it up" to cash in at a crucial moment, and we will never know what that moment is.

[cassielle]

If /anyone/ is townreading Lowell, tell me now. Make a real good case.

*COUGH* *COUGH*
If /anyone/ is townreading Laudandus, tell me now. Make a real good case.

I have gone over this a multitude of times, however. If at this point players aren't seeing the why of it, they're incompetent or scummy. Hm...

Tell me, Tenshii: are you saying that you townread Lowell? Yes, I read 860 -- but are you townreading him now?

Have you considered the reasons I might be asking for people who townread him to step forward? Have you considered I might have more than one reason to do so? That perhaps what you've tried to flip there is not actually the same thing -- in fact, is not even comparable except in the most shallow, surface-level way?

And this:

If /anyone/ is townreading Lowell, tell me now. Make a real good case.

*COUGH* *COUGH*

If /anyone/ is townreading Laudandus, tell me now. Make a real good case.

I second this.

This is exactly what I've come to expect from this slot. Why hasn't Revan pushed any other slot except a half-assed FoS in my direction? Why hasn't Revan answered a /single/ question directed his way?

We will never know. Because his slot will never tell us.

On the other hand you have this:

I'm town reading Laud cos TB said so.

This is just as (if not even MORE) crap. Superhans, that's the most ridiculous thing I've seen out of your slot's history of ridiculousness. Town gains nothing by doing that, we only lose. All of Tenshii and Joey_ and etc.'s critiques of leaving Laud alone for one day are VALID if we all damn well townread him because "TB said so". Leaving him be D1 (with the intention to hunt the slot down D2) helps town. Treating him as conftown (and thus intending to scumread anyone who pokes his slot ever) hurts town. Stop it.

[cassielle]

Yes. An impression. Was it confirmed? No! Tenshii and others have brought this up. He's a potential Mason, but that's it: potential.

He will not be conf!Mason tomorrow. He will not be conf!Mason until he flips by death or endgame. He can claim whatever he likes whenever he likes, it won't change it unless TB confirms it's accurate. TB will most likely not be able to confirm it due to a bad case of N1 death.

An impression is insufficient to consider a slot conftown. It only should adjust your overall way of parsing the slot's content.

p-edit: Revan would be an okay (passable) compromise lynch D2. D1, Lowell is superior because he's an agreeable lynch to literally every other slot thus far: no one can/is willing to defend a town narrative for Lowell, which means if he's town he's so bad he's a liability in the later game anyway. He's got an incredibly high chance of flipping red which makes him a high quality target. Why are you trying to redirect the D1 target off of Lowell? Do you town-read that slot by any means?

[cassielle]

Yeah if we can't build the Lowell wagon back up there's at least 3 townies actively trying to undermine town deciding on a lynchable wagon (which wouldn't make any sense at all). No one townreads his slot, the vast majority of active players scumread his slot, there's no defensible reason not to vote the slot when the deadline looms.

[cassielle]

Doesn't read emotional, reads defiant: like, "I don't think that many people will vote me, I'll come back and it'll still be a few people pushing my wagon without much support" etc.

[cassielle]

Who was our significant wagon on?

First, Joey_. Then Lowell.

[cassielle]

you should be aware of that.

Let me put this fact on you.

There are 2 possibilities at this game.

[ A ] ThinkBig is genuine mason and you have a chance to be mason
[ B ] ThinkBig is town claiming mason to direct kill to him.

My scumread is under the assumpition of [ B ]

I think this doesn't hold up. Option A seems like the best option.

I don't want to talk too much about the "why" D1. I'll wait until D2. For now, think of the possibility of an "Option C". I won't tell you anything about what I mean by that; just think about what an "Option C" might entail. And then reconsider B.

[cassielle]

Really, the only questionable read is Revan being reconsidered... Which is unconscionable.

Realeo: Explain how that's town. Not just that post but the whole ISO. He's waiting for someone to explain their townread on Laud, but he won't answer any other players' questions at all? Come on! There's no defensible town narrative for that slot and if you want to sell me one I'll sheep Laud on the basis of "You're too smart to try and feed me that bullshit line as town."

[cassielle]

And like, sure, maybe that one post feels town, I can see that. But one post that potentially indicates town with confused motives, vs. a full ISO of obvious scumfiddling? I'm going to say the ISO wins every damn time.

[cassielle]

You said "refine," not reconsider. To refine is to perfect from an initial crude form, e.g. to remove impurities (such as a scumread on a townslot). That implies you've bought the idea of a town!Revan which is as unthinkable to me as a town!Lowell or a scum!Big Lungs DK.

Care to comment on that?

[cassielle]

I figured English wasn't your first language.

Generally speaking, refine means that what you have is already really good and has a really obvious result. In a logical argument, a refinement of it would be omitting obvious middle steps and jumping to the conclusion -- you did the work but don't need to show it. An easy way to think of it: "refine" = "good simplification".

Reconsideration means you don't know what the final product is, and it involves a longer process. It's better to state that outright or talk of general improvement. If you're familiar with English idioms, you could also say "changing tack" or "shifting gears".

[cassielle]

Why aren't you voting for anyone?

I feel dumb for not thinking to mention this myself.

Town's only tool is the vote. Scum doesn't need to vote, even in multiball.

Why does town!Realeo have no votes out? Why not one on alban to sort his slot better, or on Revan so we can pressure that slot for info? Or one on Lowell to indicate support for that lynch while you make up your mind on a better place to vote?

I personally always have my vote up as early as possible and never unvote: if I am not voting, I am not contributing anything but crap to scroll past.

[cassielle]

Have had to think a bit. I need to write up a new readslist, and here it is (first one is always "towniest", last always "scummiest"):

Literally me: cassielle
Will not vote this anyway: ThinkBig
Town: Big Lungs DK,Laudandus,Realeo
Null: alban,nebula <--- There is a statistically high likelihood of scum being here
Schroedinger's Alignment: Superhans,Joey_ <--- I am certain AT LEAST ONE of these is scum
Scummy: Tenshii
Always wagon these: Revan,Lowell <--- These are defscum, I'd bet my own lynch on it

Of note:
Superhans is inflating his ISO with fluffposts. Activity alone is NAI but a fair portion of his ISO is NAI, casting shade for the hell of it, and baseless or absurd assertions. Town and scum can do both of those, but doing it to the point Superhans has feels AI. Is it a towntell or a scumtell? Personally I think it's a too-early-to-tell, but that it will come out as AI in the end.

Joey_ is guilty of the same thing, making twenty posts where one would do, but it at least seems on target. Nevertheless, I feel that I have less reason to townread his slot than I do Superhans's slot.

alban has been posting but I have no read on him still. Does anyone have a read on him yet? He feels like, as I mentioned about someone else (I think Tenshii?), a "minimum viable player", someone who looks like they're engaged and useful but doesn't contribute much. If you have a read, I'd like to hear it, specifics are unnecessary.

Tenshii persists in pushing the Laud wagon after I've promised to personally hunt that slot down D2. I don't get the issue: if I'm beating it into people's skulls that Laud is by no means conftown but that we have a vested interest in sitting on it for D1, why keep pushing? If I use their own argument to remind people that no, Laud isn't conftown, what is the possible town gain here? It's just a single dayphase of delay. By this point his slot pushing Laud just feels scummy -- if he thinks I have bad motives he should be pushing /me/. If he doesn't, he should consider if I maybe have a point, or reconsider his thoughts on my motives. In no way should he think that continuing to push Laud is the correct answer unless he's unintelligent. But we've established: he's almost certainly intelligent. So either he's tunnelled/confbiasing or he's scum. I have a personal favorite of those answers, but I'm saving it for after he responds.

[cassielle]

Realeo, my readslist and your readslist are overall very similar. I presented mine differently and two slots have effectively swapped places. Everything else is basically identical.

You need to entirely reconsider your own reads or re-read my list next to yours, because by saying mine is trash, you've either indirectly said yours is as well or you're overstating the importance of swapping Laud and Tenshii.

[cassielle]

I will never sheep anyone blindly. If I ever sheep anyone blindly you need to smack me upside the head with a shovel. Sheeping someone blindly is how scum (or even just badtown) becomes Town Leader and leads town on a merry chain of mislynches.

[cassielle]

I will never sheep anyone blindly. If I ever sheep anyone blindly you need to smack me upside the head with a shovel. Sheeping someone blindly is how scum (or even just badtown) becomes Town Leader and leads town on a merry chain of mislynches.

CASS, this game isnt science nor it is philosophy

Point out where in that post I said (or even implied) that Mafia was science or philosophy. I'll wait.

[cassielle]

@Joey_: I never scumread Realeo. I never even hinted I scumread Realeo. You're just making things up at this point. I have never dealt with such blatant confabulation from anyone in a Mafia game before and I'm not even sure how to respond to that sort of assertion other than to call it out as the BS it is. There was no TvT because we weren't scumreading each other -- we had concerns about some things we brought up to each other to try and improve each other's play. That isn't a TvT, that's how you get a townblock together and get your reads on the same page. You disrupted something that was pro-town because it had a slightly confrontational tone (in order to make sure the other party saw it).

On that note: let's talk "consistency of results" from your slot.

You repeatedly make things up about me, you out a town PR, you blatantly hunt for the other town PRs, you try to deny town information from your lynch. You have no reason to believe anything you do is good except "Just trust me" when the whole point of the game is you can't trust anyone who isn't mechanically proven.

Consistently, you have acted like scum. Consistently, your results would be what is expected from scum.

Why would I ever sheep that slot? I don't care about meta, especially on other sites. I care about this game, right here, right now, and the fact is your play has been consistently anti-town and consistently crap. I won't sheep that, I will never sheep that, I may go out of my way to be on a different wagon from that because it's probably the worst thing I could ever possibly sheep.

I don't even know what else I can say. At this point the only reason I'm not voting you is because you're playing so scummy you're a guaranteed NK alongside TB. "Too scummy to be scum" doesn't work in multiball.

[cassielle]

Sorry, I was mad earlier for unrelated-to-mafia reasons. Realeo is town, I think.

VOTE: Lowell

I'm not at all sold on Cass town. Feeling buddied by that slot and it is uncomfortable. I'll reread her iso when I have a chance.

Lowell is probably scum though

I admit I don't have much to go off of for townreading you yet. It's a crap read, mostly gut, and I'm itching to improve it. I can say: I have reasons unrelated to your slot's actual alignment to want to keep people off of you until D2, but I won't go into them right now. Suffice to say, you'll have every chance to get the full measure of my play D2.

[cassielle]

I think cass is a great player because shes relatively easy to read because shes can articulate her thouths really well. Having no experience with the orange chirche i can tell that if shes of different alignement in a next game i will probably be able to call it really easily, thats because she exposes her thoughts process extremely well, detailed and so on.

I can agree on that.

Realeo, my readslist and your readslist are overall very similar. I presented mine differently and two slots have effectively swapped places.

Exactly the point.

We have different arguments.

I'm stopping you to prevent you from using the same kind of framework in future readlist.

So these are calling me scum? Really?

He never called me scum. I just ISOed him. You're making things up to cover your ass now.

VOTE: Joey_

[cassielle]

He brought up a case against my slot like two days ago, and retracted it the moment I responded. Since then I've been town to him. This is nonsense.

p-edit: No. Because I don't really particularly care about your Superhans case at the moment, I want to see why precisely you think it's a good idea to make up a poor excuse for breaking up town sharing opinions with town when each slot townreads the other.

He never called me scum.

Yes, I did.

Two days ago. Not this evening.

[cassielle]

All you'd have to do is read our last readslists to know it wasn't a TvT.

[cassielle]

Then you can't call anything a TvT. Two people who townread each other disagreeing is not TvT, by definition: it will not lead to one of them trying to powerlynch the other.

This argument of yours is a comedy of errors.

[cassielle]

Ah, now here's the rub, Joey_: You do not know our role PMs. This is a fact. You do not because you cannot. That is the entire basis of the game. If you knew the role PMs, I would blindly sheep you gladly.

You don't. No one does except the moderator.

Period.

That was the entire point of this semantic argument: to corner you into accepting a reasonable definition of "knowing who is town". And by the rules of the game, you can't know who is town.

VOTE: Lowell

Don't ask me to blindly sheep you again.

[cassielle]

If I hadn't voted you you wouldn't feel any pressure, so you wouldn't feel any need to address my concerns in a way I want to hear them. There's nothing bad about that logic.

[cassielle]

I don't see any difference except there's less to explain. You mentioned the vote. I explained -- the vote. Everything else I did follows perfectly from that and my final point on the matter.

Is there something specific you don't understand?

[cassielle]

Not exactly. In 1031 it was a combination. The vote was specifically due to the point of 1055, but I wasn't sure how to take it to there yet -- I do a lot of this when I am working on a slot: check the page 1 and 2 stuff I set up around Superhans before pushing his slot. 1031's text was about the Realeo thing, totally unrelated.

1037 was when I had the idea of cornering you on TvT. I figured you had adequately addressed my concerns of the "why" you thought that by then, so it was purely for 1055's sake (e.g., to corner you on a town-knowledge definition by way of TvT).

Anything else?

p-edit: Welcome!

[cassielle]

I'm getting up in 4 hours and working for around 9 hours after waking up.

cassie, you're the first one that made a post after my standard shitpost.

Really quickly, why should I like you?

If I am able to like you, can I trust you to give me an unbiased summary of the key events I need to be aware of when catching up? I don't plan on hiding behind playing 20 pages behind all game as it's not my style.

P-Edit: Same for you Joey_ and duly noted on the votes

I don't know why you should like me. A lot of people don't but consensus seems to be my townplay smells like townplay, that's all I got.

I can work up a summary for you, but it's really worth actually ISO diving me, Lowell, and Revan, and reading the first 3 pages or so.

[cassielle]

I already like TRG's play. It's all NAI with a few easy-mode towntells, but it's the good stuff.

[cassielle]

I wouldn't say conftown, but he hardclaimed Mason on a really weak, garbage push and absolutely no one questioned his claim, only his reasons for it. No CCs.

[cassielle]

Only Joey_, Tenshii and Lowell were hunting town PRs. I scumread all of them for it currently. I've actively been telling them not to do that.

[cassielle]

Er, well -- I scumread (past tense) Joey_ -- he's badtown, not scum now. My mistake there.

[cassielle]

Very weakly townreading his slot, personally.

@TRG:

Can't see TB playing a.risky strategy as scum.

Why not ? he seems extremely apathetic about this game and this looks like it could be gambity. FTR this isnt me calling TB scum who did a gambit, its me calling your previous and this read innaccurate

I'm not apathetic. I'm just super busy over the weekends.

Can you hardclaim ? Also even if youre mason, if laud's isnt also mason then your reads on the slot doesnt mean much but from a clear

I've already hard claimed masons. Are you seriously trying to get me to reveal my other mason partners?

No ? Im just saying that i am not going to consider laud clear until someone claims hes mason so your whole point of going ''laud is town, dont make me claim'' is pointless if hes not mason or if you dont claim hes mason. Basically your claim is like ''i am conf town, i townread laud'' so far

This was the point of contention in the Joey_ v TB debacle, I believe. Everyone was of one mind that TB's claim was really silly (there was no pressure on the slot he was defending OR his own slot), this is where votes started moving from place to place.

What do you think about this?

[cassielle]

@MOD: There's also two Lowell wagons -- my vote isn't lumped in with everyone else's

Done.

[cassielle]

Oh, no, now it is but I have two votes apparently! Hidden power!

[cassielle]

Why is Joey_ is bad town instead of bad player? Arrrgh. Ich nicht understhand.

I have a response to this but I want it from TRG as well.

[cassielle]

I have a response ready to 1113, but I'm saving it for after Joey_'s response to 1116.

[cassielle]

Actually, on further consideration...

The only way to hard claim fully as mason is to claim who the other 2 partners are and have a 3 way confirmation.

No one on D1 is going to claim mason as scum, because logically, the other team is going to shoot any mason claims as conf!town are deadly later down the road.

It is disgusting play to ask ThinkBig to say if Laud is mason or not because even if the answer is no, that's one less person who scum have to guess who is a mason.

already talked about, this is acute multiball mentality aka scum mentality

I was the person who originally brought it up IIRC. See 466, point 2. I also shut down this response ("oh, how scummy") to it in 528, point 2.

Either I am scum by this logic, or you are inconsistent with how you apply it or who you apply it to, which means you're confbiasing because you didn't like that nebula replaced out of the game based on something you found unimportant. Pick one.

[cassielle]

My avatar? Some piece from Zdzislaw Beksinski.

[cassielle]

Consistency WRT individual slots is godawful play. That's how town gets trains of endless MLs, much like many things you advocate (like blindly sheeping your slot because "just trust me").

[cassielle]

In fact, isn't there a term for being consistent on individual players in a mafia game? Something like "tunneling" or "confbiasing".

[cassielle]

In fact, isn't there a term for being consistent on individual players in a mafia game? Something like "tunneling" or "confbiasing".

hmm what about skills and win rate

Everyone is wrong sometimes. No one is perfect. This is factual. If you have ever stubbed your toe, accidentally misread things (OH WAIT) or otherwise made a mistake on anything in your life, you are fully capable of messing up now.

Skills and win rate are meaningless except for self-congratulatory back-pats.

[cassielle]

mental note to rub this in your face

@Realeo I see what you mean now.

Also tunneling is a thing scum can do but I've seen town do it before(To a stupid level, like scary stupid level), difference here is that Joey isn't actually giving reasons besides saying some fun words with no meaning without context.

I'm pretty sure he's not scum. This is genuinely his playstyle.

That said, I'm certain Lowell is scum, and if Lowell flips red, Joey_'s one of my preferred scumpartners for that slot. Associatively, they play off of one another, Joey_ doing light distancing but refusing to push Lowell's slot while Lowell townreads Joey_ without a real basis. And they borrow arguments used by one another (Joey_'s "scum mentality" argument was originally Lowell's argument vs. Realeo's slot).

[cassielle]

I discuss with everyone. Hell, I've /agreed with Lowell/ about things. Town can be wrong! It's the basis of the game! Scum needs to look like town -- occasionally, scum will make valid points that town can benefit from. This isn't debatable, I mean, really. If I had listened to one of the scum in my first game on this site at a crucial moment, /we wouldn't have lost that game/.

p-edit: I am in the USA, yeah. But I'm effectively nocturnal. Why?

[cassielle]

I "buddied" Joey_ too. And Superhans. I have agreed with Lowell on multiple occasions, and even said that Revan had a point in the early stages of the game. I see a common cause right here, and I want to press it while I have someone's attention, and if TRG should so happen to say something I can press later (or even during!), I will press it.

I actually understand what you're seeing there, but I've proven on multiple occasions that with me, appearances can be deceiving. The discussion with Joey_ just before TRG joined is an excellent example. I wasn't scumreading him there, but it sure didn't look that way (if I was acting well at all).

If you're curious, my read on him is a very light townread. This is low-effort stuff to fake, even in a multiball, but there's a lot of it. I'd be easily swayed depending on his actions in the future despite that.

[cassielle]

I need to start refactoring reads. This is great entertainment -- let's stay on this topic about WIFOM.

[cassielle]

Yes, but I'm seeing something you clearly aren't yet.

Tell me, what is your read on TRG?

[cassielle]

Realeo, you haven't told me your read on TRG yet.

I'm really curious to hear it -- because I think that what your read on TRG and Joey_ is will tell if you even /can/ see what I'm seeing.

[cassielle]

I'm going to throw fuel onto this fire. I have absolutely no sense of self-preservation and Realeo's warnings that I'm mentally burnt out need to be validated.

VOTE: TheRealGin-N-Tonic

On a serious note, I'm all for this. But I don't want your defense and won't accept it. I simply find your playstyle fascinating all over and want to examine it in a different light.
Joey_: I still don't believe you. This is for entirely different reasons, your arguments against the slot have been and will continue to be awful.

[cassielle]

WHAT THE FUCK IS TOWN SUPPOSED TO DO YA TWIT.

FIND THE FUCKING MAFIA

His argument is that you're over doing scumhunting. Chill ya

This is a style thing, I don't think he's actually upset. Reminds me vaguely of -Grey-.

[cassielle]

Interesting.

I got the same feeling out of it, for the record. Scum does like to do things like antagonize -- it causes town to say "oh, it's TvT" and makes the game unfun when focusing on them so town looks elsewhere. Happened to me in my very first game on this site, as a matter of fact.

[cassielle]

WHAT THE FUCK IS TOWN SUPPOSED TO DO YA TWIT.

FIND THE FUCKING MAFIA

His argument is that you're over doing scumhunting. Chill ya

This is a style thing, I don't think he's actually upset. Reminds me vaguely of -Grey-.

I was reminded of him as well, but it's actually a trend in multiball.

The mafia, has a tendency, somehow, over analyzes thing in a multiball. The knowledge of knowing the other scum faction (yours) give extra boost for scum.

Joey_ argument is indeed legit.

My problem with Joey_ (now) is how does this relates with Gin? There's only small sample available to proof that Gin is indeed scum and that is exactly what is happening with Gin.

Which is why I pressed on the second argument of Gin from Joey_ to eliminate sampling error. I'm going to read it right now.

Excellent. We were on the same page the entire time then.

I think you'll find the results interesting.

[cassielle]

Personally, I wouldn't have brought that up.

Suggestion: If you bring a case against him based on it, consider not wording it in a way that's easily responded to. Let town sort it out instead of leaving an opening for a defense, because he has two separate references in this game for how to weasel out of it.

p-edit: Correct.

[cassielle]

@Realeo: Of course, absolutely. I was playing both sides a bit to keep it flowing, civility/bias removal is less useful to me than seeing the overall flow, but by the time you had finished telling me to get out of the conversation it had entered a rhythm I liked anyway.

p-edit: I don't know about that, but I also won't argue it. They're equally good slots I think.

[cassielle]

For the poor individuals who have to wade through this: This was a crazy part of the game to look at in real-time.

Grab popcorn around page 45, and re-read with Yakety Sax playing. That's the best way to enjoy the peculiar flavor of these past 6 pages.

[cassielle]

@MOD: For the sake of posterity, can we get a VC?

[cassielle]

No, there's mine too.

It's not so much that it's necessary and more that it sets the proper tone for the people coming back in tomorrow -- there's a lot of crap to read and it's kinda annoying (Joey's postcount went up by almost 100!). I want to have it clear where TRG's slot stands even if you skim or skip.

[cassielle]

Looks good to me. Thank you!

[cassielle]

I can accept laud d2 claiming.

That is the only social contract I can offer at this point.

I have been treating this game as VT v maf v were.

Yeah, same here.

Actually, I'm thinking. Do you think inability to come to a town consensus is AI? Let's talk reads for a moment: the people scumleaning Laud would not be an example -- someone scumreading Superhans, Joey_ or Big Lungs DK would be. You see where I'm going with that? Don't want to spell it out... but let me know what you think.

We might be able to build a solid townblock if you get the picture and think it would be AI.

[cassielle]

I'm waiting on Realeo before I address the topic of the scum 180.

I'll simply say: I was scumreading TRG for a different reason.

[cassielle]

Quick question, Laud, can you point out where he actually called Joey_ scummy? Or said he scumread him? I can't seem to find it in his ISO.

@Realeo: What do you make of this?

[cassielle]

A key element is to remember that while scum only sometimes look like town, town always looks like scum, and so people will inevitably scumread you. Hell, we had a statistically proven town in my last game that most slots pushed as scum at least a little bit on D2 (due to scum influence, but still). You have to not let scumreads feel like a reflection on your play and treat them more as a reflection of the human condition.

[cassielle]

That said, Lowell seemed like scum from reading his posts, but he said that he usually seems like scum to people reading his posts so maybe that's meta. I'd still be up for lynching him

This is why I dismiss meta as a general rule. Maybe it's meta. Maybe it's WIFOM. Maybe it's town trying to get out of a scumread they don't understand and can't think about properly (some people have trouble with counterfactuals). The safest bet is to assume it's WIFOM, otherwise scum will coast because it's "just their meta". Especially a meta like "I always get scumread as town" which is ripe for abuse.

[cassielle]

@TRG: The switch to voting you was naked, and that was intentional. I wanted to keep the discussion going, tempers raised, both sides showing themselves at their worst. You can get very good reads out of that sort of thing. I deflected your attention off of me by saying it was all about watching your playstyle, and I kept Joey_ fuming by saying I didn't believe him.

I ended up liking where it landed, as it happens, so I'm standing by it.

@Tenshii: Any attempts to tie me to Laudandus are laughable. I've got a special plan for that slot and I will not be dissuaded by shade-throwing and nigh-contentless scumreads. I think your point about hardbussing is one more people need to be paying attention to, however.

@Superhans: You didn't read in terms of motives, did you? Joey_ had very clear motives: he was tunneled and awful at playing a town game. Can you tell me what TRG's motives are aside from the surface level "I don't understand"? Hint: Anyone talking "scum-180" is talking nonsense. There's a different aspect you should be looking at altogether. Just think: why does town!TRG play that way?

[cassielle]

@cass: You said that you scumread Gin for different reason. Wut?

The scum 180 thing is nonsense.That's what I meant.

Are you saying that's why you scumread TRG? I had the impression you scumread him for subtler reasons (you compared your scumread of him to your former push on my slot, and I remember that push having nothing to do with a "scum 180").

So you intentionally caused chaos and used that chaos to get a free pass on a vote because chaos makes players look scummy. Please tell me more how that's fucking helpful to town.

The chaos was started by Joey_. I simply kept it going to get good reads. The vote was part of keeping the chaos going, not intended to land on you outright. You were just the best place to put it: if I had voted Joey_ he'd probably have changed tactics and focus in my direction, preventing me from reading you well, for example. If I hadn't voted it at all, it wouldn't have worked and I felt there was a significant risk (at the time) of the argument dying out without me finalizing a read on you.

This is not an opportunistic vote: nothing every prevents me from voting a slot for whatever reason I want, short of mechanical limitations or sanity. I would have and could have gotten away with a "opportunistic vote" in any slot in this game so long as scumteam lolhammers weren't a real risk. But this isn't MyLo/LyLo and votes are powerful tools for putting pressure on a slot, even naked votes. I believe you're putting way more attention than is deserved on a vote that fits perfectly with my pattern in this game overall -- which people have already gone through the OMGUS->scum because unusual play->probably town but I don't like it rigmarole on. That is, in fact, one of the reasons I asked you to read my ISO when you joined the game.

Of course, you focused on Joey_'s ISO first, because he was scumreading you, instead of trying to catch up on the overall gamestate through my suggested reading material (which would also familiarize you with my approach to this game). This is arguably preoccupation with appearances: you ignore the generally relevant in favor of the personally relevant. But even supposing that isn't the case, this push does reflect a profound lack of knowledge about the gamestate, when I pointed you at three specific ISOs (only one which could be called "large") and the first three pages specifically to get a really good grasp of the overall game with a fraction of the reading.

[cassielle]

[ 2 ] I believe it was my "scum overdoing town hunting". Joey_ pointed out that Jin suddenly "bad town" him. I find that Jin reasoning is not satisfying. I find he failed to explain why he is "bad town" instead of "bad player". The only justification of Jin was "It is not an ad hom attack," but he agreed that Joey_ at the end did ad hom attack, so he reasoning collapses. His reasoning seems inconsistent, even for an angry player who is pissed off.

Also of note, during the "spikes of anger" ad hom attacks did come from TRG's direction, they just weren't made up of strong language -- instead, they were surrounded by it. Note that this is after he mentions ad hom with strong language is a general scum tactic -- his reasoning for Joey_ as badtown INSTEAD of scum. 1335 is a prime example of an artifical-looking avoidance of "strong language as ad hominem".

Now, the rest looks reasonably natural when read out of context, but when looking at his ISO, there's a very strange sort of indirect targeting going on. It's not exactly ad hominem (outside of "ya twit"), but we have "It's called using your brain," "Learn me up something," "Say what it is at least and I'll get you a glass of warm milk and put it by your bedside," "OH MY GOD REASONING," and more -- all of which paint a picture of Joey_ being uneducated, childish and stupid without actually saying it outright. So it's a kind of concealed/obfuscated ad hominem attack. He'd deflected attention from it by mentioning "scum ad hominem" beats people about the head with strong language -- he used strong language exclusively as intensifiers to dodge that bullet, but the overall flavor was (and is) evident to me.

And while town absolutely can slip up that way, this feels like invested scum to me, not town, because angry-town making as many mistakes as TRG did would probably slip into "scummy" ad hominem. Add onto that the points you made WRT his slot, and I'm quite confident.

[cassielle]

And while town absolutely can slip up that way, this feels like invested scum to me, not town, because angry-town making as many mistakes as TRG did would probably slip into "scummy" ad hominem. Add onto that the points you made WRT hi

I'm confident that I don not understand what exactly do you mean by this conclusion.

He was very careful not to do what he earlier said scum do instead of badtown WRT Joey_ (1126): he never cussed as a personal attack and only made one direct personal attack at all, which was hilariously underwhelming ("ya twit", see 1225). Really frustrated town who didn't realize they were still making indirect personal attacks wouldn't be so careful not to be hypocritical -- it shows an appearance-conscious playstyle. TRG was very careful not to fall into the very description he gave of scum behavior at a point in time he'd probably get towncred for doing it just out of frustration. That doesn't feel townie at all, that feels like cautious, invested scum. (E.g. scum that is both playing to wincon by actively avoiding, redirecting or fighting back at any shade cast his way.)

[cassielle]

In fact he brought up meta and played the direct inverse of the meta he brought up for himself -- compare 1128 with his ISO. This game he was getting really mean in general and blowing up, but avoided obvious ad hominem attacks -- it's literally a complete flip of the scum meta he mentioned, which is both very easy to do and AI.

Funny enough, the second some breathing room was gained, he got very cautious about his appearance again: see 1265, 1267. And true to his word, he's been largely inactive (NAI -- the whole game's been slow the past couple RL days, but still). So a plausible narrative: he clued us into his scum meta, and tried to break it for cheapo towncred. Then he got scumread for the way he broke it, and reverted to the very scum meta he told us all about.

[cassielle]

But can't his behavior change be singled out as "Gin being angry?" (which is why I picked on something before "Gin being angry" which is quick Joey_ townreading). Angry people are irrational. Been there, done there. It's a good case but not damning when you gives him the benefit of doubt.

Ah, that's my point though. He's too rational during his angry posts. He's very clearly conscious of appearance in them.

[cassielle]

I got Nioh today and have been playing that, so I've just been keeping barely-up-to-date while in load screens or such.

I know people have asked for things from me, but off hand I forget what they are. I'll give a big ol bunch of posts for people in the next 8-12 hrs.

Because it's literally right in front of me right now, though:

@Tenshii, 1: I am incapable of summarizing more than I have. Believe me, I try, and you're seeing the outcome of multiple passes of size-reduction. I can't summarize any further than I already have.

And my case against TRG is Realeo's case (the bizarre left-field townread), combined with self-awareness at a point in time that he should have been much less self-aware, and (ONLY because he brought up this meta himself) inconsistency in tone and use of ad hom in the "angry pages". It feels appearance-conscious, as in "focus on not being scumread over scumhunting". This isn't a perfect tell in a multiball (because everyone needs to scumhunt, so it tends to get drowned out a bit), but I can't see why town would be appearance-conscious, even in a multiball. Scum need to be very appearance conscious in a multiball -- because they have two separate factions looking for them.

[cassielle]

Alright, I reread a bit.

TRG: you've framed my case badly. This is not really anyone's fault, when I think about it, just a fact of how the human brain works. So let me break down my case. Pay SPECIAL ATTENTION to number 6.

1: You are the one who brought "town mean manner" vs "scum mean manner" up. This means that you are the one who believes that is the case. (I personally do not -- I've seen vicious ad hom from town, like Joey_ for example.)
2: You then followed the letter of it as town without following the spirit of it -- e.g., you used the mean manner you adopted as a means to beat Joey_ with (I named some examples) but didn't use harsh words for direct/outright ad hom. This is a scumtell by /your/ criteria, but requires a careful eye to spot.
3: I will note that 2 can be explained by anger and 1 is NAI -- as of this point.
4: If you /had/ fallen explicitly (e.g. by the letter) into your own description of a scumtell out of anger, you probably would have gotten towncred after people grilled you about it for a bit. That's a slightly risky gambit for scum to make (especially in a multiball), and you don't strike me as a confident player -- you're very cautious. Needless to say, you did not do this -- which makes you look a bit scummy, but it isn't enough for a vote all on its own.
5: When the heat turns down, you immediately state your intention to go lurky because you don't want to be scumread because of being angry. This is explicitly appearance-conscious gameplay, which is always (AFAIK) considered a scumtell. Enough for a pressure vote, but not a lynch vote. So why am I lynchvoting TRG?
6: Tack on both of Realeo's cases against the slot. These are the real deciders, because they color the rest of this from "nullscum" to "why are people townreading this?" By itself, the appearance-consciousness case is weak. But Realeo's case WRT TRG's nearly-instant badtown read on Joey_ (keeping in mind it took me about two full hours in realtime to hit that conclusion myself and some people were scumreading him for a good 4 or 5 hours) and TRG's oddly specific/confident reads on multiple slots without any real exposure to those slots under pressure -- those are the real meat of the scumread I have. Everything else (1-5) is a supporting case that I guess people are focusing on because I'm the only one who has it -- and so I spend a lot more time explaining it, and it looks like it's the only reason I have. It's not, it's not even the most important.

[cassielle]

Literally me: cassielle
Will not vote this anyway: ThinkBig
Town: Big Lungs DK,Laudandus,Realeo
Null: alban,nebula <--- There is a statistically high likelihood of scum being here
Schroedinger's Alignment: Superhans,Joey_ <--- I am certain AT LEAST ONE of these is scum
Scummy: Tenshii
Always wagon these: Revan,Lowell <--- These are defscum, I'd bet my own lynch on it

Cass, is this still essentially your reads list?

No.

I need to refactor my reads list on the current gamestate, and that one in particular has a couple tactically placed reads for pressure purposes. (Tenshii is and has been north of his position as listed, for example.)

[cassielle]

VOTE: Gin

Hammer.

This is either insanely crap or insanely smart. I don't know whether to smack the hell out of this guy or give him a handshake.

I briefly skimmed through due to lack of time. Will read thoroughly when I have more time.

But I don't think Gin got hammered and I think he is town. Especially given the last page.

The Joey_ case on him was bad with the whole reconsidering reads thing. Especially when Gin brought up the whole "Town can be voting town, therefore, I can townread someone who scumreads me" The Realeo argument of Gin bringing up NL isn't AI because there's no scum motivation behind it even though Realeo said there's no town motivation behind it.

@Laudandus I don't believe in pressuring other slots when I believe your slots deserves more. Especially when I have established reads on most of the table.

Bolded.

VOTE: Lowell

[cassielle]

FTR: Scum when fakehammered would act more like Joey_ did when a ton of slots dogpiled him all at once: get defensive, pedantic about the VC and who's trying to apply pressure to his slot (e.g. "you're already voting me, you have no pressure" sort of thing) and generally try to trainwreck the towngame. TRG reacted with shock and horror, then tried to infodump as fast as possible before the (imaginary) twilight fell. That reads town to me.

[cassielle]

Long story short, I basically agree entirely with realeo's 492 regarding the mason claim and joey's role in it. It's multiball, so, it's not clear why either team would give up a chance to kill their opponents just to take out a mason. Esp if the other team might do it for them. TBH my reaction when I read the claim was "damn, glad I'm not scum bc I don't know wtf to do with that" (LAMIST!). If anything, it just makes the rest of our jobs easier because we can limit the field of potential scum.

VOTE: realeo

PLOT TWIST! So, I agree with realeo's 492 completely. Honestly, I think he's thought about this scenario a little too much. And too carefully. The subtle way he comes back later with a short-list of killables also reads scummy to me. Not sure how he narrows it down to three there. I should for sure be on it, but so should several others.

???

@tenshi, you wanted... a claim? from laud? In this setup?

Is this to me?

Literally the last thing I want to do is speculate on the mason team. One of the many dumb things TB has done is make us think about it. Now no one wants to accuse anyone who MIGHT be a mason for reasons of offending king TB. Which has made D1 dumb.

If we get close to lynching a mason, TB will let us know. Until then just effin' fire away and let's do something. You want to vote SH? Fine, let's wagon, doesn't matter.

These later posts are trash.

[cassielle]

Like read Lowell's ISO around 527 (like, 526) and tell me how the hell that matches up with 1495 or 1508. It just doesn't scan, it feels like he was hoping people forgot he had said there's no real risk in outing the masons so why not just let people do that so he could get some cool towncred. Sure, the results of what he's asking in the later posts are the same, but it's counter to the tone he's setting in them: which is "why do you want people to claim/why do you want to out masons, that's crazy". Which makes it even more shifty.

I don't like this slot. Who is townreading it? Why are they townreading it?

[cassielle]

Looks like L-2. I might have missed one or the VC could have been off, but L-2 is what I saw -- my vote and Tenshii's vote after the last VC (at L-4).

[cassielle]

I'm not suggesting we hammer Lowell.

I do think you need to rethink TRG on the basis of his reaction to that fakehammer from TB. I'm no scumhunting master (not by far) but I have gotten really good at parsing how differing alignments react to a hammer (fake or not). Fakehammers only really work once or twice a game, but they're damned good for sorting slots in a hurry.

TRG's reaction to the hammer was town all the way. Surprise, indignation, a bunch of high-content-density posts to get his last words out there before nightfall; the good stuff. He's bad at playing in a townreadable fashion, but his play isn't anti-town, and that hammer reaction was so town it hurt.

[cassielle]

Pages 45 to 51. It's a ridiculous read, I recommend Yakety Sax in the background.

Note: that argument was always relatively weak in my opinion (it just ended up being the argument I've had to explain the most, I go into this in 1538) and I've since changed my read based on TRG's reaction to TB's fake hammer.

[cassielle]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... start=1100 I forgot you asked for a link when I went looking for the page numbers! Sorry.

[cassielle]

He's deserved to be lynched most of the day. Town just wanted to get the most out of D1 (and by god have we ever).

[cassielle]

1: Laud's townread on me for making a complex case is garbage.
2: Superhans's case against me for making a complex case is even more garbage.
3: I type the way I type. I have done everything possible to make my posts readable, if it's not enough then you are shit out of luck. I can't see anything wrong with it myself, and I don't understand how I could possibly make it more clear.
4: To Superhans specifically: I have told you once already, in the first 3 pages in fact, that there is no call for that sort of response to my posts. If you continue to attack me because you personally have trouble reading something I put a lot of effort into making readable, I will be forced to scumread you to prevent a repeat of the last game I played on this site, where I was pocketed by a scum player because they made the game completely unfun for me. This is to protect town from my inability to handle people attacking me instead of my play, and not because it's strictly a scumtell.
5: Finally, /I don't scumread TRG anymore/. Did you even read the posts after that post or are you trying to push a pointless scumread to save Lowell?

On this basis: if Lowell flips scum, my favorites are Joey_'s slot (Joey_ and Lowell were pretty well tied together with how their arguments worked) or Superhans's slot (this push on an explanation for a read I no longer even agree with has no other sensible explanation).

[cassielle]

Actually, no, there is another explanation: a Superhans/TRG scumteam. Forgot about that. So Joey_/TTTT is my favorite partner for Lowell.

[cassielle]

I also think I should clarify: I don't scumread TTTT/Joey_ outside of the associative read, so they probably are not the scumpartner. But I can't find any other slots that mesh well with Lowell's (possible the partner distanced, Lowell's scumreads started real early and never went away), so I go with what I have.

[cassielle]

I don't know how else to describe it? How are you /not/ seeing it as town? It hits every note of a townie who got hammered to me.

[cassielle]

VOTE: alban

Boom.

scum vote

Pretty sure it was RVS.

Learn to read RVS

I think I know how to read RVS, but I've been giving it lower priority than real gameplay (it feels harder to fake but also a lot easier to misinterpret).

Should I be putting more weight on RVS votes when sorting slots?