Open 677: See Nayne Ples Ples [THE END]

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Hey guys. Just got my confirmation in. I have one more class for the day now and then I'm gonna dive into this. Anything I should keep in mind while reading? Also when is deadline? I wanna know how quickly I need to be reading. Otherwise I'm gonna take my time and probably be ready to chat later this evening or tomorrow during the day.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

ANTIIIIIII

I didn't even realize you were in this game this is awesome AND you're the IC. So give me the rundown please. I've gotten through like.. page 5ish and I'm quickly realizing that almost everyone here is new and I don't know them and I don't even really know where to begin.

Also, I ISO'd you and you're bullshitting. Stop that. Just because you're confirmed doesn't mean you don't have to give a shit. If anything, I need you to give more of a shit than normal.

Whatcha got?

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I don't really feel it but I can see why you want people to follow.

^ icky post.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Not a fan of creature in the early game either. first townvibes coming from the orestes hydra.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

NAI

this is new. what's this?

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I mean... piggybacking on momos shitty reasons for Scum reading me? makes me want to blurt out in laughter honestly.

LQ you are really obvious scum.

Scum lean on M&M.

*sigh*

MM is another town read at this point. LQ not doing much to change my initial read.

pedit- HI SAKURA

thanks!

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I forgot how much unnecessary time and space is usually wasted on discussing whether hydra suck or not.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

While you're here, let's chat. What are your thoughts on Creature and LQ currently?

[EspeciallyTheLies]

It doesn't make sense to say that you both agree and disagree with someone's assertion. It felt like you were trying to buddy up to him and make him feel comfortable with you.

p-edit: never played with either of them. is that game the only experience you have with LQ, Sakura?

[EspeciallyTheLies]

LUV - it was wishy washy.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

p-edit: never played with either of them. is that game the only experience you have with LQ, Sakura?

Yes.

who are your strongest reads at the moment?

[EspeciallyTheLies]

It doesn't make sense to say that you both agree and disagree with someone's assertion. It felt like you were trying to buddy up to him and make him feel comfortable with you.

p-edit: never played with either of them. is that game the only experience you have with LQ, Sakura?

Not that I believed it, I respected it. What's wrong with being welcoming?

It didn't come off that way to me. It came off wishy washy. Flip floppy. Like you didn't really want to take a stand on it.

LUV - it was wishy washy.

Nothing was weak or indecisive about the statement.

You didn't make any definitive statements about it, but you made a statement. You said you didn't feel it but understood why he made it. There's literally nothing being said there. It's posting for the sake of posting..

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Music and Mail

Persivul
Electra and Orestes

Creature

Hawk
Kop

LicketyQuickety

Agent Sparkles
Sakura Hana
Charloux

momo

Lil Uzi Vert
Killthestory

Townreads are striked out. If you're not striked out, you're a lynch candidate.

this is all kinds of terrible.

VOTE: creature

[EspeciallyTheLies]

momo (4): Kop, Hawk, Sakura Hana, Electra and Orestes
Music and Mail (3): momo, LicketyQuickety, Lil Uzi Vert

i think momo is newbie and mm is pretty strong town here. no read on momo and tbh not sure i'm going to bother. gonna hope pr can look into that first. i would bet money there is scum on that wagon though. don't think it's EO. leaves kop, hawk, sakura. probably scum on the MM train too, thinking LQ more than LUV. creature obviously voting town from my pov and continuing to make useless omgus remarks instead of engaging me, so, yeah.

we need to lynch creature.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

My statement was definitely conclusive. I don't feel it, meaning my brain may have thought the correct and logical thing to do was to join the wagon but my gut said no based off of my intial impressions and reactions to his play early on.

That's better than what you initially said. I wish you'd said that to begin with.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Felt it was self explanatory.

Not really. I'm less inclined to hang my hat on this point based on your later posts though so I'm done with it.

M&M, E&O and Hawk are my townreads

I think it can be agreed someone on my wagon is scum.

You have just eliminated all the possibilities.

For real, I think you just cleared names so that I can be lynched.

ETL, what do you think.

I think I already stated my thoughts on your wagon. The most useful wagon analysis actually comes from the person being wagoned in my experience. What do YOU think about the people on your wagon? Give me some details about your thoughts on each of them please.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

At least we agree on Hawk.

You don't townread E&O??? Why?

You too - can I get your perspective?

[EspeciallyTheLies]

ANTIIIIIII

I didn't even realize you were in this game this is awesome AND you're the IC. So give me the rundown please. I've gotten through like.. page 5ish and I'm quickly realizing that almost everyone here is new and I don't know them and I don't even really know where to begin.

Also, I ISO'd you and you're bullshitting. Stop that. Just because you're confirmed doesn't mean you don't have to give a shit. If anything, I need you to give more of a shit than normal.

Whatcha got?

sry. i'm bad now

what can i do for you?

At least we agree on Hawk.

You don't townread E&O??? Why?

You too - can I get your perspective?

One E&O or in general? I just got off work so I'm a bit tired but I'll respond to any questions if you direct me for a bit.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I'm a failure.

Anti

- First of all, I need you to really be playing the game. Not just responding to stuff. Your most important responsibility right now is sharing every insight you have because we all know your reads are at least without ulterior motive. Second, you're my anchor, even if you're made of jello. So, tell me what you think right now. Who are your strongest reads, either town or scum?

Hawk - what are your thoughts on the momo/MM counterwagons?

p-edit: Sakura - me too. I'm making a new attempt to read you properly. I know your past meta has gone out the window so I really think you and I could do well comparing notes together because we have very similar playstyles.

p-edit 2: What do you mean biased on MM? Agree on EO. No read on Hawk yet. Give me more about that one - details. What are the mixed feelings regarding?

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Anti

faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiil.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Do you compare players to "textbook townplay/scumplay"?

Take that as an attempt to engage with you.

This was directed at me?

If it was, no. I don't. I'm mostly a gut player, backed with experience. I have trouble reading people I've never played with but find that there are certain principles that do apply across the board in almost all cases. I've written a couple articles on scum hunting that go over those. Site meta changes from time to time, and I've been away for about a year, so no idea if those concepts still apply, but that is essentially the way I'm playing this game, until/unless I discover the need to adjust.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I am not thrilled with ETL, honestly. Looks like they are buddying Anti here.

He's one of my best friends in the world. Like... actually.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

There is plenty of evidence to back this up - check any of my past like 20 games.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Oh well, that sucks. Site meta constantly changes and the only way to not be a scum manipulating toy is to constantly evolve.

Are you an alt? Because you're speaking to me like I should actually be taking advice from a 16.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I'm not interested in speaking with rude people, especially rude people I believe to be scum.

EO

- if you agree with me on Creature, why are you not voting him?

[EspeciallyTheLies]

You get that I have to poke you on that though right?

Yes. It was a gut reaction - our rapport in games has often come under fire as being scummy or buddying and I hate that, because it's completely irrelevant.

What is your read on me and what page are you on?

My current read is pretty null. I'm looking for strong town reads mostly and go from there. That one post pinged but later responses to other people outweighed that feeling so - pretty null. I do feel though that there's something to be said for bringing a read out of the redzone compared to a straight null read due to nothing posts like other players I haven't even mentioned yet I'm sure because I haven't come across any posts from them yet.

I'm ~page 8/9. Fading fast so I think I'm done for tonight and will continue tomorrow. I have the day off so it will be nice to have some time to do ISOs and such.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

So who here is ready for a Hawk Wagon. Think this is a common ground.

I asked you a question.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

kts is my dark horse pick for scum

oh no.

ok as to the other things - it's not between momo and MM, and you know it. take a better look at creature. also respond to LQ regarding my "buddying" of you.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Creature how about actually playing the game and making some actual arguments instead of fluff posting.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

There's a word for that, I forget what we used to call it. But it's basically posting to make noise and look like you're doing something when you're actually doing jack shit to further the gamestate.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Mmmm I think Momo has been playing pretty scummy. His play feels very forced and consistently just trying to snowball some kind of pressure. His counter pushes to pressure on himself is to OMGUS and or draw up misreps. Mail and myself (possible music) actually scumread him for reasons concerning his play but he doesn't engage with that instead presses us as policy lynching him. He misreps me saying that I'm following M&M when I was the first one to objectively scumread him. I don't think he's as new as he acts and it reflects in some of his statements meaning I think he recognizes what he's doing he's just choosing to ignore it for newbie shield.

M&M I think at least RC's head is very passionate and has displayed a very apt desire to be the center of attention and lead town. Confident to the point of being cocky I don't think even an experienced Hydra wants to draw that much attention as scum. I do find her stubbornness to refuse to give cases and only give one or two reasons at most with no follow up for her pushes to be annoying and kinda scummy so I can see how LQ and Uzi don't like it.

Mail on the other hand has been rather collected and calm. A nice compliment to RC but no less manipulative/cunning in their play.

Overall I think that slot is more likely town than scum but I don't think I could see reason to lynch there over Momo today. Not unless Momo's play really picks up and he stops playing so objectively terrible -_-;

I have things to say about this; quoting to remin myself later because I'm tired, but real quick I don't think we should even be considering momo today. most of your reasons sound ok on the surface but could also be explained by lack of experience, so, the reasonable doubt test fails there for me. the only thing that i think stands out from that argument is that it feels forced to you. that's kind of subjective and not something i can confirm beyond going "does he actually seemed forced to ME?" which he doesn't, really... just... new and bad. just saying i think a newbie lynch is not the best we could do today.

i like mm (it sounds like you're saying you think they are scum?) i suppose if things were directed at me it would be different. i see good thought processes there and good motivation which tells me they are doing something beyond waiting for the day to end.

more with this post tomorrow.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

oh no.

oh... should i not be?

what did i do?

the oh no was out of game reasons.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I like the content of this post, but I don't like the timing of it.

I asked him for it.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

What are the chances we've got a lurking scumteam? Because I'm seeing a lot of activity from the same like 5 or 6 people and none from the others.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Like, good activity with the exception of Creature.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

if momo were using him to be a potential newbie as a scum tactic, he wouldn't reveal he's an alt until after the game. it's something that supported my townread on him

i like this.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

And I agree with LUV. Just investigate me. I will come out Town.

godfather claim

wtf is this setup!? doc and investigative and a gf?

p-edit: Creature, if I didn't think you were scum I might actually find you funny.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Point being: they argue lurkers could be Scum all the while picking up a slot that was a lurker.

I was just thinking out loud, cuz honestly I'm liking most of the posts being made by those who are actually here, which makes me think either I'm missing something huge or the scum are hiding on purpose.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

ETL is still too ordinary.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I'm back. The thread exploded looks like. When I responded to the replacement post I thought it said 17 pages. This is quite a bit more. I don't know that I really want to read all that.

Anti where are you?

Still think momo lynch is a low information lynch and we can do better. People I'm unwilling to lynch today: Anti, EO, MM. People I need to get a better handle on: KTS, Kop, Hawk, Charloux. The rest are low null to scum reads.

Question to all:

Besides momo and MM, who would be your second lynch choice? I don't like either of those options, and the quick run up on momo between my leaving last night and this morning looked super sus. I'm looking at anyone who willy nilly switched wagons for that opportunity.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Also, I forget who asked but speed of wagon is absolutely a good indication that its a bad one. Town generally dont feel so happy to switch so easily with so much time left on the clock. Scum don't care as long as it's not a partner. When a wagon has exceptional momentum like that, it's more than likely there are scum fueling it. It's unnatural.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

i.e. - speedy wagon most often means wagon on town. momo is low hanging fruit.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I just don't have the concentration to catch up properly with 60 pages.
Who is the most scumread/townread guy; Were there any claims? Any big fights that happened?

Then replace out.

You need to stop saying this to people. It's unacceptable behavior.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Someone give me the basic argument on hawk? I thought his posting yesterday was ok.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Sorry posting on mobile so there was some auto correct in there.

Whenever I've seen Uzi play a more Null game he's usually either town that gets NK'd early cause people think he was a lurking PR. Or he's actually a PR. Also Uzi has said before that his PR play is very lurkery and null.

It's not a rolefish. Uzi does this as Vanilla Town too. But I've never played with him when he's scum so I don't know, I don't read to deep into meta but Uzi seems to follow his from what I have played with him.

this one?

[EspeciallyTheLies]

There has to be more to the cases on hawk than a single post?

[EspeciallyTheLies]

they are not going to explain it until Hawk is dead apparently

RC - please humor me as I'm dumb and don't know things about this game and I would like to get a better understanding of why people are doing things. ♥

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Not that I've been made aware of.

UNVOTE:

Not lynching a PR claim not that he should live for long sans a Doc helping him out here.

yeah, Doc is still on Anti.

Not anymore. If there's a doc he targets the claimed cop, period. IC is great and all but a cop is more useful. This is basic mafia 101.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I've got a pretty strong town read on MM, so I'd prefer to check a scumread, but clearing MM would still do a lot to furthering the game, as I don't think hardly anyone has the same feeling about them that I do.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I've got a pretty strong town read on MM, so I'd prefer to check a scumread, but clearing MM would still do a lot to furthering the game, as I don't think hardly anyone has the same feeling about them that I do.

Couple problems with this:

1. momo isn't cleared until dead
   
2. investigating to get a guilty is not the correct play to make. The correct play to make is to investigate someone who is likely to live till end game.

I don't see how those are contradictions to what I've said? I agree with you on both points. A guilty would still be fantastic though and is the ultimate end purpose of a cop. Duh

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I think it's kind of dumb how I'm just this obligatory check but sure go ahead.

@ETL I'll get you a case later today. Deal?

Yes ok. But don't make me wait forever. I'm going to the gym soon and then lunch with friends, then shopping and dinner date later so I wont be around until later this evening.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

@LQ - I agree. That is basic information that I would hope anyone has in mind with a cop claim. There's still fundamental strategy to be followed. This conversation is pointless until D2.

I need information about Hawk. I don't feel strongly about this wagon. I'd much prefer Creature.

p-edit: Creature.

p-edit2 : oo yes a Lurker would be ok I guess. Unless they just keep lurking in which case that is useless.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

If it were me I'd pick Creature. Or KTS.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Charloux's slot would be helpful if we don't just run that up. same with Kop.

I wish these two would just start playing the game so I can get a read on them. Otherwise, I don't know. I've never been a fan of LAL, but I also feel like lurkers shouldn't have the privilege of making it to end game just to fuck up all the work the rest of the active town put in just to get NK'd.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I am pretty sure by Day 3 (if i am alive) I will have a pretty good read on Creature.

Why?

I'm fine a KTS check.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I'm feeling pretty blah about all the options at the moment. Although hawk is looking less and less town tbh.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I'm feeling pretty blah about all the options at the moment. Although hawk is looking less and less town tbh.

How is your town read weakening on him?

I never had a town read on him, just didn't get any major pings and some of his posts yesterday were alright, nothing spectacular. The biggest thing for me is the way he handled the momo wagon yesterday and the wk point someone brought up - wk without an alternative is sketch AF.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

So like, I'm kinda pissed that people are too lazy to read the whole thread when I have literally read through the whole thing more than once...

Not everyone is going to play the same way as you. I'm doing the best I can. Reading through 50+ pages isnt' going to make my reads any better, it's just going to make me tired. I get my best reads through interaction.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

So like, I'm kinda pissed that people are too lazy to read the whole thread when I have literally read through the whole thing more than once...

Not everyone is going to play the same way as you. I'm doing the best I can. Reading through 50+ pages isnt' going to make my reads any better, it's just going to make me tired. I get my best reads through interaction.

K, I'm here. What's your read on me?

I told you I had a dinner date.

Anyway, I'm willing to discuss with you any aspect of the game other than my read on you. I find explaining my read to the person the read is on is pretty well pointless and only leads to bullshit.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I don't understand the question LQ.

Creature/LUV? ISOing.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

i'm hoping rc/postie's case just knocks my nuts off so i can vote hawk and go on w my life

yeahh he said he was gonna give me the case later today i'm back now and its already 10 pm so not for long. i have class in the morning

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I could see LUV/Creature as a team. Early interactions are pretty buddy buddy. What are the numbers for this setup? Max two scums?

p-edit: RCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC do it

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I don't understand the question LQ.

Creature/LUV? ISOing.

The way you framed the response was the way Anti has been posting all game.

I dunno what to tell you. It happens.

p-edit: me?

[EspeciallyTheLies]

i'm going to bed now. i'll be back after classes tomorrow afternoon.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I don't support any votes on EO or MM. Both feel very town to me. I'm good with either LUV or Creature.

VOTE: LUV

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Ali usually obvtowns it up to kingdom come

But they are in a hydra which changes the dynamic significantly. Is that the only thing bothering you about the slot? Because on the whole, the ISO looks great to me - I see a lot of probing questions WITH follow-up, not just busy work, and I see critical thinking happening; responses show conclusions and thought process. Scum are more often than not unwilling or unable to provide that because not only does it attach accountability but it gives town things to pull apart, and since scum arguments are bullshit by necessity, most explanations by scum are relatively easy to dismantle if you really get into them. Which is why when I play scum, I often tell my partners to talk as little as possible without looking absent. The less you say, the less the town can use to build a case.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

What do you mean? We were speaking about E/O I thought?

My read on LUV is more peripheral than anything but nobody is listening to me about Creature.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

What do you mean? We were speaking about E/O I thought?

My read on LUV is more peripheral than anything but nobody is listening to me about Creature.

Uzi has done pretty much the same things Ari has done this game

, what's the difference between Uzi and Ari in terms of info they have given?

I disagree with this statement. I don't feel that LUV is giving the same consideration to the game that E/O has. I feel more strongly about Creature, and I keep saying this, and you keep not acknowledging it, my read on LUV is peripheral to my read on Creature, but you don't want to lynch Creature and I don't have the motivation to ra-ra-rally a wagon in a game I'm not 100% familiar with pre-flip.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

and you didn't answer my question.

I just fucking answered it. I don't know what it is but the way you ask questions is pretty confusing and half the time doesn't make sense. My asking you for clarification is met with accusation rather than actual discussion, which is annoying.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Like we are here, having an active conversation. I am actively typing responses to you and the fact that it didn't come .2 seconds sooner has you going "you didn't answer my question". That's not a discussion, it's an interrogation, and that's not how I prefer to interact with people.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I am trying to see what you are saying here

And I interrogate people, its how I scum hunt.

If you want to understand me, have a conversation. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and willing to work with you but not if you're not going to actually

have a conversation

. It's off-putting and makes me less likely to respond favorably and less likely to actually

want

to work with you.

You and I disagree about LUV's play. I've explained my thoughts on it. Me repeating myself isn't going to convince you or make it any different than when I said it the first time. I disagree with you about E/O. Unless you give me concrete evidence to the contrary, my conclusions about their posts remains the same.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

you are Town reading who again?

Are you actually asking me because you don't know? Because I've stated multiple times now that I'm strongly town-reading both hydrae to begin with.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Was hoping you would get more detailed so I could read you based off how developed the read was

None of my reads are very developed and I expect they wont really be until D2 to be honest. I haven't read much of the game and I'm relying on interaction to get a better feel for people, but I'm not getting it. You're the only one who has really talked to me, and the only thing you've talked to me about are what I think, which doesn't help me to actually generate thoughts about anything. I need information about other people.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

you are Town reading who again?

Are you actually asking me because you don't know? Because I've stated multiple times now that I'm strongly town-reading both hydrae to begin with.

K, so you have 4 reads: Hydras are Town and Uzi and Creature are Scum. Everyone else besides Anti is null.

Not really. Those are my strongest reads. I'm still trying to figure out the arguments between people.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

havingfitz entrance looked good. i learned more about the game from kts in ~3 pages than i have from anyone else since i arrived. still disagree with the E/O wagon; absolutely agree there is scum to be found on that wagon.

Official Vote Count

Electra and Orestes

(5): Hawk, Kop, Lil Uzi Vert, momo, Killthestory

Lil Uzi Vert

(3): Music and Mail, Electra and Orestes, EspeciallyTheLies

This tells me so much. It tells me that scum are actively pushing against the LUV wagon - both E/O and MM are strong town reads and seem to be coming to the same conclusions I am. It's literally a beautiful wagon, especially given the questionable characters on the E/O wagon. KTS and maybe Hawk are the only two on there that I really feel have legitimate reasons for being there.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I'm not saying its AI

It literally is alignment indicative.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Seconded. EO was already voting LUV. I know I'm a few pages behind - catching up and responding as I go.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Kop (2): Antihero, Creature

Anti. wth are you doing? I don't even see a case on Kop. Why is hanging out on a lame wagon better?

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I'm not saying its AI

It literally is alignment indicative.

Wut. How?

A player's voting patterns and reads are absolutely alignment indicative. How are they not??

[EspeciallyTheLies]

prod received. sorry. busy studying for midterms. dont really know what to say. this day has gone on far too long and i dont feel any better about anything. i'm convinced creature is scum. i dont care about anything else right now. i need a flip and more information before moving forward.

VOTE: Creature

[EspeciallyTheLies]

great job guys scum had no chance. good night actions.