Open 692 - Two-fold Matrix6 (Game Over)

[Kantrip]

Hey everyone!

Don't mind me, just gonna plop myself down on the comfiest looking wagon.

VOTE: Realeo

[Kantrip]

Wait? Those thing are French? I thought Judge is having an affair with Aristo and those are some kind of safe word.

Anyway. Me gonna say something that will help us exit RVS.

Guys, please stop voting me. It's L-3

Is that the thing?

I'll unvote you if you tell me who I should put my vote on instead.

[Kantrip]

Wait? Those thing are French? I thought Judge is having an affair with Aristo and those are some kind of safe word.

Anyway. Me gonna say something that will help us exit RVS.

Guys, please stop voting me. It's L-3

Is that the thing?

I'll unvote you if you tell me who I should put my vote on instead.

Hah! I know someone can't refuse to react to my statement. Now we can exit RVS.

If you say

I'll unvote you if you tell me

, are you saying

I'm actually scumreading you, Realeo. The only way I'm not voting you is if someone is scummier

?

I'm tempted to classify that statement as continuation of RVS, but

is that the thing?

implies you are actually serious with your statement.

My vote on you is RVS, I am not scumreading you.

However, I was serious when I said I'd vote someone else if you told me who. I thought that would get some reactions from people and help exit RVS.

The offer still stands, by the way. I'm leaning towards either PMysterious or Draynth, what do you think?

Did you not see the preceding message

I did, but that's what stood out to me. Trying to get out of the RV phase is fine and dandy (as we need to eventually), but he's at L-3 at the Random Vote phase, and he seems all defensive about it. It's a little weird to me.

What if he was faking being defensive to get reactions? I feel like starting a statement with "I'm going to say something to help get us out of RVS" makes his intent pretty clear. You think he is scum getting defensive from fear of being lynched and getting out of RVS is just his excuse?

[Kantrip]

My safeword is Pamplemousse

That and grenouille are two of my favourite words to say

Wait? Those thing are French? I thought Judge is having an affair with Aristo and those are some kind of safe word.

Anyway. Me gonna say something that will help us exit RVS.

Guys, please stop voting me. It's L-3

Is that the thing?

I'll unvote you if you tell me who I should put my vote on instead.

Hah! I know someone can't refuse to react to my statement. Now we can exit RVS.

If you say

I'll unvote you if you tell me

, are you saying

I'm actually scumreading you, Realeo. The only way I'm not voting you is if someone is scummier

?

I'm tempted to classify that statement as continuation of RVS, but

is that the thing?

implies you are actually serious with your statement.

My vote on you is RVS, I am not scumreading you.

However, I was serious when I said I'd vote someone else if you told me who. I thought that would get some reactions from people and help exit RVS.

The offer still stands, by the way. I'm leaning towards either PMysterious or Draynth, what do you think?

You gonna give reasons for either of these or are you happy enough to just try skate by?

I am not going to give reasons at this time but I'm certainly not happy to just skate by.

Offer me again when BTD replaces Gamma. Too early to cast vote without full team.

You aren't reading.

Oh I thought that was a reference to something else entirely haha

What did you think it was a reference to?

Oh. Gamma already replaced out? Dave replaced in.

Ok, me take the offer.

VOTE: Pymestrious

I like it.

VOTE: PMysterious

I believe that's L-3. Can everyone on this wagon so far confirm that their vote isn't RVS?

[Kantrip]

I'm not trying to dodge your question Rory I was just hoping Draynth would respond first.

PMysterious, have you considered the possibility that Realeo was faking his defensiveness to get reactions out of people? Also if you don't mind me asking, how many games have you played before? I mean no offense I just want to gauge your stances off of experience.

Draynth, what is your stance on my reply to you? Are you scumreading me?

[Kantrip]

Okay cool. To answer your question Rory, nothing is wrong with Draynth besides a surface level cut and dry approach to scumhunting. Not interested in voting him though. He voted me in RVS for my RVS vote when I said I was just trying to plop myself on the comfiest wagon for it looking like I was coasting. I wanted to see how he would react to me saying I was interested in voting him without providing any context and his behaviour now lines up with what I expected in that he's not considering deeper intent. Leaning town.

PMysterious is a similar case and my opinion hinges a bit on his experience. It's weird to me that he seems to think scum is jumping on Realeos wagon while also thinking Realeos reaction was scummy and I'm not sure he is entirely comprehending the reaction test angle. Reads to me like genuine misunderstanding over a scummy contradiction, though.

Realeo

- any reason for the Ari vote besides a gut feel? And could you answer his/Raya's questions please?

Raya

- I voted PMysterious because I told Realeo I'd vote for someone if he told me who and I'm a man of my word.

As for why I gave the options I did, it was because both slots were similar in that they were making surface level scumreads and I wanted to pressure one of them to read them while also getting a read on Realeo based on who he chose and why.

[Kantrip]

Reads to me like genuine misunderstanding over a scummy contradiction, though.

I endorse this product.

Realeo - any reason for the Ari vote besides a gut feel?

There is something called from EpicMafia called fillering. It's a condition where scum are unable to fake scumhunting so he talk something else. Methink that is what happening.

Nah, I just don't post as scum. As it is I'm busy atm (Note my V/LA).

I'm here, but it's early so what would you actually like me to address?

This is WIFOM. I don't care to go off of your self-meta.

Do you have any scumreads at the moment?

[Kantrip]

Usually I'm complaining about posting going too fast, but in this case it's going too slow.

VOTE: PMysterious

Reasoning for this vote?

Okay cool. To answer your question Rory, nothing is wrong with Draynth besides a surface level cut and dry approach to scumhunting. Not interested in voting him though. He voted me in RVS for my RVS vote when I said I was just trying to plop myself on the comfiest wagon for it looking like I was coasting. I wanted to see how he would react to me saying I was interested in voting him without providing any context and his behaviour now lines up with what I expected in that he's not considering deeper intent. Leaning town.

PMysterious is a similar case and my opinion hinges a bit on his experience. It's weird to me that he seems to think scum is jumping on Realeos wagon while also thinking Realeos reaction was scummy and I'm not sure he is entirely comprehending the reaction test angle. Reads to me like genuine misunderstanding over a scummy contradiction, though.

Realeo

- any reason for the Ari vote besides a gut feel? And could you answer his/Raya's questions please?

Raya

- I voted PMysterious because I told Realeo I'd vote for someone if he told me who and I'm a man of my word.

As for why I gave the options I did, it was because both slots were similar in that they were making surface level scumreads and I wanted to pressure one of them to read them while also getting a read on Realeo based on who he chose and why.

I. Understand the misunderstanding from pm. But how do you explain the lack of questioning the wagon? And by that I mean any pressure on the people of the wagon?

You mean from PM's end? I completely agree, and again it hinges on his answer to my question about his experience. I could see his current stance being a townie who is genuinely confused and thinks that both possibilities exist without really knowing how to act on it, which is what I'm kind of leaning towards at the moment. However, I agree with you that if he thinks scum is on the wagon he should be questioning or pressuring those people. I dunno, it could go either way but it reads to me more like he's really unsure of his stances rather than fabricating them.

[Kantrip]

WhyMafia because of so few posts and those were empty. He voted Gamma and unvoted when questioned, voted Ari for no reason and questioned Judge's vote on Dave when I think Judge's vote made sense (getting Dave to participate).

When did I vote Ari? I was never questioned on my vote on Gamma? It was a joke vote/RVS banter. There is no point to vote on someone if they're inactive. And 1 vote on someone to pressure someone to post hardly ever works. If they go through D1 without posting hardly any stances, that's a cause for concern.

Judge - Complained game is moving too slowly, voted Dave to try to move things along which I was thinking of doing. Scum would let us wallow in RVS as long as possible.

I have this as scum. That vote literally does nothing. And complaints are just complaints. Back it up with action, his vote on Dave barely does that.

I agree that no one should get town cred for complaining about inactivity since it's very easy for anyone to do that and can be considered filler. However, I don't think the vote does literally nothing. What are your scumreads looking like right now? Do you think Judge is scum for complaining about activity and not doing much to fix it?

Okay cool. To answer your question Rory, nothing is wrong with Draynth besides a surface level cut and dry approach to scumhunting. Not interested in voting him though. He voted me in RVS for my RVS vote when I said I was just trying to plop myself on the comfiest wagon for it looking like I was coasting. I wanted to see how he would react to me saying I was interested in voting him without providing any context and his behaviour now lines up with what I expected in that he's not considering deeper intent. Leaning town.

PMysterious is a similar case and my opinion hinges a bit on his experience. It's weird to me that he seems to think scum is jumping on Realeos wagon while also thinking Realeos reaction was scummy and I'm not sure he is entirely comprehending the reaction test angle. Reads to me like genuine misunderstanding over a scummy contradiction, though.

Realeo

- any reason for the Ari vote besides a gut feel? And could you answer his/Raya's questions please?

Raya

- I voted PMysterious because I told Realeo I'd vote for someone if he told me who and I'm a man of my word.

As for why I gave the options I did, it was because both slots were similar in that they were making surface level scumreads and I wanted to pressure one of them to read them while also getting a read on Realeo based on who he chose and why.

Why did you pick Draynth to test his reaction here? Seems a little random to me.

I got the impression from his dislike of me not explaining myself that I would be able to get a read on him if I lumped him in there without reasoning and looked at his reaction/opinion of me afterwards. I did just that while also getting some insight on Realeo. Two birds, one stone.

Usually I'm complaining about posting going too fast, but in this case it's going too slow.

VOTE: PMysterious

Reasoning for this vote?

See who questions it.
See if it generates any commentary other than people questioning it.

I see. I take it you don't have any scum reads at this time?

[Kantrip]

I disagree with the premise of oldwino's reads list. It's focused too much on activity and not enough on intent. This isn't indicative of his alignment, though.

whymafia 4 realz
i dont see u doin anything productive
ur just showing off and yabbing to appear active and posting
tell me if u have said anything that is meaningful so far

I will say that voting a slot that just replaced in because they "need to post more" is not exactly helping to progress the game. I'm not saying WhyMafia has necessarily done more, but I don't think that was his point either. What's your opinion of Realeo so far?

[Kantrip]

Realeo seems like a cool guy so I'm going to mindlessly sheep him again.

VOTE: Aristophanes

[Kantrip]

Looking back, maybe I was a bit overreactive, but I remember doing stuff very similar to what Realeo did when it came to pressure (even if it was RV), and everytime I ended up doing that, it ended up coming off as scummy, which is where most of my motive for questioning came from. Times have likely changed since then, and my timing was off, but I hope my motivation was made clear. I do not wish for anymore shenanigans based on this topic, and would much rather look into possible scum (other than Realeo).

Where are you looking at the moment?

[Kantrip]

I'm here, but it's early so what would you actually like me to address?

Things.

So helpful...

Realeo seems like a cool guy so I'm going to mindlessly sheep him again.

VOTE: Aristophanes

Do you actually have reads of your own?

Yes I do. Please answer my question to you.

[Kantrip]

OK, caught up. I'm going out shortly, but some quick thoughts and questions:

I like the Ari wagon. Pretty much no content in his posts, and doesn't seem to be looking to accomplish anything. Has anybody played with him before? Is he normally this low-content?

I agree with my predesessor, Katnip pinged me really hard at first. I hate that "reaction test" shit. It's a tool that scum can use to justify scummy posting. However, a few things give me pause: I really like his later posts, and they appear to show genuine scumhunting. Although as has been pointed out, this is multiball. They also seem astute enough that it makes me believe that the "reaction test" could be legit and not just him covering his tracks. On the other hand, I also don't like, his interaction with Whymafia and Dredd, as mentioned below. I do like his reaction to Oldwino's reads and agree 100%. Still leaning scum, but less so than when I went back to re-read to compose this. @Katnip, your account is ~2 weeks old, but do you have prior Mafia experience?

My strongest SR is Whymafia. I've played with him before and I townread him very quickly (when he was town) but it's the opposite here. I really, really don't like his push on Dredd. It just seems like scum stretching to find something to push someone for. Does anybody here really think that "what do you possibly hope to accomplish with a vote???" is a legit thing from a townie? Maybe I'm biased because I tend to play more on shorter-deadline sites, but isn't voting people to get them to post totally standard here too?

VOTE: Whymafia



I agree that Rory is looking town here.

Reads to me like genuine misunderstanding over a scummy contradiction, though.

I endorse this product.

Realeo - any reason for the Ari vote besides a gut feel?

There is something called from EpicMafia called fillering. It's a condition where scum are unable to fake scumhunting so he talk something else. Methink that is what happening.

actually scum can scumhunt because it's multiball.

the thing you pointed out with Realo makes me want to give him a fair amount of town cred.

@Whymafia, I don't understand what you mean here. Could you clarify? You want to give Realo towncred here? Why?

I have mafia experience from another site, yes. I'm definitely used to a meta with a lot of egos and nuanced gameplay where everyone tries to meta-read each other and go to extreme lengths to reaction test for reads. It's kind of refreshing to come to a new community with a fresh slate of sorts.

Anyways, I respect your hesitance to trust someone claiming a reaction test retroactively. I will say that my refusal to explain myself until I got what I wanted out of it should indicate that it was at least a pre-planned maneuver as opposed to me just claiming it was a reaction test to cover myself. Doesn't mean it warrants a town read because, as has been mentioned, it's a multiball set-up, but I think it's fair to say I was legitimately reaction testing and not just covering my tracks by saying that.

Either way, Kasumeat is reinforcing my read on his slot. I would say I'm the most comfortable with him, Realeo, and Rory at this point. PMysterious is a slight town read, and although I disagree with his reads list I have a slight town on oldwino for putting himself in the spotlight by posting a full reads list in the first place. I feel like he's informing his opinions a bit from his own experience, so I get the impression that his scum game may line up with the things that he's looking for when scumreading other people. While he could be doing this intentionally as a bait, I feel like the surface-level nature of his reads makes this unlikely.

Judge and WhyMafia are mixed bags for me. I find myself agreeing with their stances when they give them, but they both give me this impression of not really caring too much about finding scum so much as having reasonable opinions. I'll go into more detail on this in a moment.

Ari, however, is the most deserving of a vote at this time in my opinion. Twice now he has come into the thread saying passive aggressive things to people pressuring him while actively avoiding questions aimed at him and not doing anything proactive. I understand being V/LA, but to come in the thread saying he's here and can answer questions just to ignore them and then come in later and laughing at the fact that there's a wagon on him? Don't like. I get the feeling he's not a player who is comfortable playing scum and is trying to discredit pressure on him by making out like it has no basis and the people voting him are inherently untrustworthy. Rather than ask me if I have any of my own opinions or laugh at people voting him, I'd really like to see where his head is at and some content that's not fluff.

[Kantrip]

Judge ISO

this game is going too fast for me to follow
almost a post an hour is way too much is it not?
by this rate we should be out of rvs in day 3 or 4

This doesn't serve to help the problem he's complaining about and nothing he has done before this point progresses the game either. It bothers me a bit because he could try to ask questions or pressure someone to get out of RVS instead of letting it take until "day 3 or 4" as he says.

VOTE: davesaz

need the replacement to talk more

What would a vote on that accomplish?

just about a little more than your question actually.

I'm okay with this vote on an inactive only because it's consistent with his behaviour so far. It seems he wants everyone to post stuff and that he's a less proactive player when it comes to scumhunting. Personally I'm against this and I'm always one to play with whomever is around and willing to play and let the mod worry about people who aren't posting. That being said, there's nothing inherently bad with voting an inactive if you don't have a better lead. Important to note that Judge is the one who instigates the aggressive interaction between himself and WhyMafia with this post.

I have this as scum. That vote literally does nothing. And complaints are just complaints. Back it up with action, his vote on Dave barely does that.

so what would ur majesty consider action if not a vote? enlighten me with ur wisdom

Okay so off the bat I agree with WhyMafia's sentiment here. Complaining about the state of the game's activity does nothing to solve the problem, and voting for an inactive because they "need to post more" is basically a throw-away vote. First of all because you're telling them outright that you're not scumreading them and your vote is a glorified prod. On top of that, your vote is wasted on someone who isn't posted and nobody is getting any meaningful information.

What bothers me about this is Judge's defensiveness. I think it's pretty clear that WhyMafia isn't saying a vote isn't action. He's saying that a vote on an inactive is useless. Rather than address this, Judge pretends as if WhyMafia is saying that a vote

in general

is not action. Not only is this obviously false, but it also serves to deflect back at WhyMafia for not being proactive rather than address his issue with an inactive vote.

The only thing that gives me pause is the fact that Judge complained about inactivity before voting an inactive replacement. I think there's an off-chance that he's town that doesn't like making reads without having a full picture and he just responds badly to people who try to call him out for that approach. That being said, I still think Judge getting so defensive after one call-out from WhyMafia raises a red flag for me.

I have this as scum. That vote literally does nothing. And complaints are just complaints. Back it up with action, his vote on Dave barely does that.

so what would ur majesty consider action if not a vote? enlighten me with ur wisdom

Call him out for it once he posts again. No need to take such an aggressive tone, I tend to lose interest in the game when people are unnecessarily aggressive.

and u call my response aggressive? sheesh i must've typed something in invisible ink

Again I find myself agreeing with what WhyMafia is saying. Still don't like that Judge is blinded by the fact that he's being criticized and ignores the actual point WhyMafia is trying to make. I can see him being town-aligned with an ego and being upset that someone else who isn't contributing is trying to criticize him, but I still think he comes out of this interaction looking worse.

whymafia 4 realz
i dont see u doin anything productive
ur just showing off and yabbing to appear active and posting
tell me if u have said anything that is meaningful so far

At the same time, this isn't untrue either. I also think that WhyMafia coming in to criticize oldwino's reads list and Judge's choice of action with his vote is unproductive. Judge comes off too defensive when making this point and I don't like that he ignores the actual points WhyMafia brought up, but he's not wrong.

your opinion of Realeo so far?

i kinda dig him so far

I also think Realeo has been probably the most productive player in progressing the game so far, so I like this response. However, no bearing on alignment from this. Just worth noting that it's a stance I agree with from him.

WhyMafia ISO

Guys, please stop voting me. It's L-3

Hmm, this seems a little defensive if you ask me. Being at L -3 is not a big issue during the RV phase, so why are you panicking so much about it?

VOTE: PM
Did you not see the preceding message

This implies that WhyMafia understands Realeo's intent as getting out of RVS and that he was not actually panicking about being lynched. He accompanies this with a pressure vote on PMysterious for not recognizing this. At this phase in the game I respect this choice of action.

VOTE: davesaz

need the replacement to talk more

What would a vote on that accomplish?

Once again I agree with WhyMafia here. I personally don't think a vote on an inactive accomplishes much, but I already touched on that in my Judge ISO.

My issue with this, however, is that this question is basically rhetorical. There's no answer that Judge can give to satisfy WhyMafia here. He's basically giving Judge a loaded question where no matter what Judge says he can disagree and call Judge scummy. There's no reason to ask "what does this vote accomplish" rather than just explain that you think it accomplishes nothing. WhyMafia strikes me as astute enough to understand why someone would vote an inactive and what it might do. So it's a mixed bag for me since I agree with WhyMafia but he's not doing anything helpful about it.

WhyMafia because of so few posts and those were empty. He voted Gamma and unvoted when questioned, voted Ari for no reason and questioned Judge's vote on Dave when I think Judge's vote made sense (getting Dave to participate).

When did I vote Ari? I was never questioned on my vote on Gamma? It was a joke vote/RVS banter. There is no point to vote on someone if they're inactive. And 1 vote on someone to pressure someone to post hardly ever works. If they go through D1 without posting hardly any stances, that's a cause for concern.

Judge - Complained game is moving too slowly, voted Dave to try to move things along which I was thinking of doing. Scum would let us wallow in RVS as long as possible.

I have this as scum. That vote literally does nothing. And complaints are just complaints. Back it up with action, his vote on Dave barely does that.

See here WhyMafia comes right out with the fact that he thinks Judge's inactive vote is scummy. That's fine with me, but what I don't understand is why he didn't say that initially and waited for someone to assign a town read to Judge and then disagree with it. Furthermore, his vote is still on PMysterious from RVS when PM didn't recognize the intent of Realeo's post. I feel like at this point WhyMafia should be voting for Judge but he refrains even though he thinks Judge's inactive vote is scummy.

Why Mafia, any reason you kept your vote on PMysterious at this point?

Reads to me like genuine misunderstanding over a scummy contradiction, though.

I endorse this product.

Realeo - any reason for the Ari vote besides a gut feel?

There is something called from EpicMafia called fillering. It's a condition where scum are unable to fake scumhunting so he talk something else. Methink that is what happening.

actually scum can scumhunt because it's multiball.

the thing you pointed out with Realo makes me want to give him a fair amount of town cred.

I do like him giving town cred to Realeo for not considering scum being able to scumhunt due to multiball. I also see that as a townslip so I agree with WhyMafia here.

whymafia 4 realz
i dont see u doin anything productive
ur just showing off and yabbing to appear active and posting
tell me if u have said anything that is meaningful so far

I'll say stuff when I feel as if I have something to input. Otherwise it's just a waste of time. Each of my posts are things that I believe in, but they aren't much, and I'll be the first to admit that. I'm trying to improve my D1 play, so stick with me

I don't like accepting self-meta, but I will say that WhyMafia not having a strong Day 1 would give an explanation for some of the problems I'm having so far. It definitely reads to me like he's hanging back and only posting when he has something he wants to disagree with or a strong opinion he wants to voice.

oldwino, most of your scumread reasoning are "post feels empty."

What do you mean with post feels empty? I think my post is the fullest. You can't have people start talking about ppmysterious if I don't start that. I advance the game. Townread me.

And how lane is forced? I think he's the one who progresses the game. He is the one who points out the contradiction of ppmysterious.

And how does "me not noticing PP replaces Gamma" is scumread?

Woah. Woah. Realeo. You seems so defensive.

Because the readlist doesn't makes senses.

If Aristo is a scumlean, I'm fine.

But if Aristo is null, I don't understand why PP is a scum but Aristo is a null.

To add that, I don't understand why every scumlean is a scum but Aristo is a null.

Hey .. this makes sense. I agree with what you're bringing up
Out of curiosity how would you sort Aristo yourself?

WhyMafia did you just miss where Realeo already stated his dislike of Ari or is this post you asking for more detail?

Lol at the votes on me

What do you think of the wagon?

Interested to see Ari's response to this and subsequently what WhyMafia has to say about it. I have thoughts about it but I want to let it play out.

OK, caught up. I'm going out shortly, but some quick thoughts and questions:

I like the Ari wagon. Pretty much no content in his posts, and doesn't seem to be looking to accomplish anything. Has anybody played with him before? Is he normally this low-content?

I agree with my predesessor, Katnip pinged me really hard at first. I hate that "reaction test" shit. It's a tool that scum can use to justify scummy posting. However, a few things give me pause: I really like his later posts, and they appear to show genuine scumhunting. Although as has been pointed out, this is multiball. They also seem astute enough that it makes me believe that the "reaction test" could be legit and not just him covering his tracks. On the other hand, I also don't like, his interaction with Whymafia and Dredd, as mentioned below. I do like his reaction to Oldwino's reads and agree 100%. Still leaning scum, but less so than when I went back to re-read to compose this. @Katnip, your account is ~2 weeks old, but do you have prior Mafia experience?

My strongest SR is Whymafia. I've played with him before and I townread him very quickly (when he was town) but it's the opposite here. I really, really don't like his push on Dredd. It just seems like scum stretching to find something to push someone for. Does anybody here really think that "what do you possibly hope to accomplish with a vote???" is a legit thing from a townie? Maybe I'm biased because I tend to play more on shorter-deadline sites, but isn't voting people to get them to post totally standard here too?

VOTE: Whymafia



I agree that Rory is looking town here.

Reads to me like genuine misunderstanding over a scummy contradiction, though.

I endorse this product.

Realeo - any reason for the Ari vote besides a gut feel?

There is something called from EpicMafia called fillering. It's a condition where scum are unable to fake scumhunting so he talk something else. Methink that is what happening.

actually scum can scumhunt because it's multiball.

the thing you pointed out with Realo makes me want to give him a fair amount of town cred.

@Whymafia, I don't understand what you mean here. Could you clarify? You want to give Realo towncred here? Why?

If he was scum, he would know it's multiball
Of course it's not a completely good method, but I feel like a townie would make this mistake
Additionally, you're voting me for a theory reason? That seems stupid lol. That seems to be reaching. It is of my opinion that just voting someone does nothing to get them to post, it just seems towny. I'm not going to vote someone for it, but it pings me, and supports a scum read if more evidence/gut comes into play

I find myself basically agreeing with this post. I like that he pushes the Realeo townslip and he gives an explanation for why he doesn't vote for Judge right off the bat. I still want to see why he thinks his vote was better staying on PM than pressuring Judge but this explanation at least makes his behaviour consistent. Similar to Judge, I find myself disagreeing with some of WhyMafia's methods but they are at least consistent.

I'm curious to see other people's thoughts on these two players and their interactions. I definitely can't see them being on the same scum team, but past that I think any combination of alignment is possible and I'll need to see more to have a more solid opinion. For now I'll say they're both null with points in their favour and against them.

[Kantrip]

TL;DR - Yes that's a huge wall to basically say nothing. All I'm getting at is those two slots confuse me and there are some things I find scummy but it could just be town play that I disagree with since there isn't actually a contradiction anywhere.

Anyone I haven't mentioned yet has basically left no impression on me so far and needs to post more.

[Kantrip]

I think my biggest issue with Judge is with WhyMafia asking him what his vote on an inactive achieves, and him getting defensive and deflecting. I mean maybe it's a defensive townie move but what bothers me is him purposely misrepresenting the question. It's obvious WhyMafia was asking what voting an inactive achieves, and Judge twisted it to what a vote

in general

achieves.

Also you answered my question, was gonna ask if you think Realeo could be scum. I do see where you're coming from about the "town slip," although I feel like experienced scum would also realize that since there's another team something like filler content wouldn't be necessarily scummy.

[Kantrip]

Also Ari already has multiple questions aimed at him and plenty of content he could comment on and chooses to come in and "lol at his wagon." I think a snarky response is warranted and won't knock Realeo for it.

[Kantrip]

Aristophanes: PMysterious, Realeo, Kantrip, Rory

There are some good names on this list, with Kantrip being one of those who I really suspect. Sheeping just because you "trust" someone, while getting Realeo's hopes up, it seems rather mindless instead of rather making his/her own opinions.

So, Kantrip, while I'm at it, I have a quick question, since I brought this up.

Ignoring Realeo's posts, who do you think is Mafia?

I think Ari is mafia.

I guess it didn't come across very well that I was joking about voting Ari just to sheep Realeo. I laid out my reasons I think Ari is scum in another post. I also think WhyMafia and Judge have raised some flags but I could also see them being town and I need to see more to feel more confident about it.

[Kantrip]

Ari can you please answer questions aimed at you? Third time I've asked.

[Kantrip]

And like, expand on your scum reads. Right now it just looks like OMGUS and defensiveness.

[Kantrip]

Kantrip, what's your read on Kasumeat?

Town. Already had town vibes from Draynth and he reinforced them.

[Kantrip]

Just catching up but holy geez Judge you are being a jerk.

Sorry I'm not familiar with this site and editing quotes. Saying my posts are devoid of content is disingenuous though, I refuse to believe you honestly think that. Stop scumreading everyone who disagrees with you and use some perspective, please. I joined this site because I missed playing mafia but you're gonna make me regret the decision.

[Kantrip]

lane I'm gonna have to stop you there for a second. You initially shared this sentiment:

I don't see the logic in questioning the person who you think has scum on his wagon... That doesn't flow

You're clearly saying here that you don't understand why PM would question Realeo when he thinks there is scum on the wagon.

You later rescinded your stance to thinking it's fine for PM to question Realeo but you don't understand why he didn't

also

question people on the wagon.

Answer me this: Do you think PM is scum? Your vote is still on your RVS target, do you not have anywhere else you see fit to put it?

[Kantrip]

Kasu - Do you still think lane's lack of contribution is not worth voting him over, or have his newest posts changed your mind?

EBWOP

Of course it's not a completely good method, but I feel like a townie would make this mistake
Additionally, you're voting me for a theory reason? That seems stupid lol. That seems to be reaching. It is of my opinion that just voting someone does nothing to get them to post, it just seems towny. I'm not going to vote someone for it, but it pings me, and supports a scum read if more evidence/gut comes into play

OK, now I get what you're saying about the multiball, but I'm not sure I agree. I don't think it's significantly more likely to come from a clueless townie as it is to come from scum who is just making a fake case a little carelessly.

I'm not voting you for a theory reason, I'm voting you because you're accusing somebody of being scummy because he's putting a vote on a lurker and encouraging that lurker to participate. That is very scummy of you. And meta.

Could you clarify the first point for me? Are you saying that it's just as likely to be a town slip as it is to be scum making a fake case? Or that you think scum is more likely?

Could you also expand on why WhyMafia calling Judge's lurker vote a scumtell is so scummy to you?

[Kantrip]

For the record Judge I'm not going to acknowledge your wall post by principle so if you have any questions or comments in it that are actually relevant and aren't just sarcastic drivel to prove a point please post them separately.

[Kantrip]

Rory - I initially liked Kasu's entrance into the game. I liked that his read on me showed a thought process that involved re-reading and reconsidering first opinions which I find to be more common in town (when the thought process looks genuine, at least). While the setup is multiball so scum has incentive to scumhunt too, it still gave me a good impression to see him coming into the low-activity state of the game with an opinion of the most prevalent wagon, a scumread of his own, and a stance that showed he was actually looking to re-evaluate his reads.

However, his recent behaviour towards lane where he said the low contribution wasn't something worth voting him over and then later telling lane his preferred style of play is really scummy prompted me to reread Kasu's posts and some things stood out to me that look inconsistent. Something rubs me the wrong way about the way he tells people their behaviour is scummy in response to them as opposed to making a statement that he thinks X person is scum for Y reasons. Like with lane, for example, I don't know if he thinks lane is scum or if he's just informing lane that what he's saying could be perceived as scummy. I don't know if it's intentional but it's the kind of thing that could give a back-door in the future which I don't like. Similarly, he used a lot of qualifiers and useless questions when calling things scummy in his first post.

Example 1 (paraphrased): "I like the Ari wagon because his posts seem empty. Does anyone have experience with him? Is this typical behaviour?"
I don't think anyone answered this question but I also don't get the impression Kasu was interested in the answer. It again feels like a way to be less committal with a read.

Example 2 (paraphrased): "WhyMafia calling Judge scum for voting a lurker is scummy. Does anyone see a town reason to do this?"
Again, I doubt Kasu is interested in an answer to this question. I also disagree with the premise of his WhyMafia read as stated but I'm going to wait and see how he replies to my questions to him.

I'm interested in what contributes to your scumread on him, Rory. Also, what makes you scumread Raya?

[Kantrip]

Judge - Are you serious about scumreading Realeo for voting you then voting back to Ari again? Could you provide a full reads list actually, and try to keep emotion out of it? I'll do the same in exchange.

Town:

PMysterious, Realeo, Rory, oldwino

Mixed leaning town:

WhyMafia

Mixed leaning scum:

Judge, Kasu

Scum:

lane, Ari

Everyone else: null

[Kantrip]

So either way you believe it was a mistake on Realeo's part? I agree with that much, for sure. Is your rationale for thinking it's slightly more likely to be scum due to the fact that, while scum

can

scumhunt in this setup, they still have less incentive to do so than town does? Like scum would be less motivated to scumhunt and so more likely to scumread for reasons that don't make sense for the setup?

As far as the WhyMafia and Judge interaction goes, I think it comes down more to the context. WhyMafia didn't say anything about Judge's vote until someone else gave him town points for it. At that point he disagreed with that sentiment and said he had the lurker vote as scum. That's as far as he went with it and even went as far to say it didn't warrant a vote on its own. From that I got the impression that WhyMafia didn't have a strong read on Judge one way or the other.

The way I see it, the game was pretty stagnant and lots of people were either straight up inactive or posting mostly filler. Judge was vocal about his disdain for this on multiple occasions but wasn't seen doing much about it past consigning himself to the fact that the lynch would be "basically a guess." He then voted one of the inactive players saying they "needed to post more." WhyMafia asked him how that helped the game progress and Judge got snarky back rather than explaining the rationale. This already bothers me because when given an actual question about the action he took "to progress the game" he chose to get defensive about it rather than just explain it, which I don't think was warranted by the interaction. As I pointed out before, Judge was the first one to get aggressive.

I think Judge's countless posts about the state of the game and a random vote on one of several inactive players serves to

look

like he cares about progressing the game, but the way he has reacted to people who question him or his intentions shows that it's the appearance he cares about and not the result. I also believe that's what WhyMafia was feeling when calling the lurker vote scummy and, considering he only did that after someone else tried to call Judge town for it, I don't get the impression that he was trying to push Judge for it at all.

For that reason, WhyMafia comes across as caring more about the game progressing and Judge cares more about keeping up appearances. This is why I think WhyMafia looks townier and Judge looks scummier. There's still a lot of strange things in their interactions and things they've said that confuse me no matter what their alignment which is why my read on them is mixed rather than solid, but that's how I currently stand on it.

[Kantrip]

Kantip, I see your concern @ Kasumeat, but is it town contradiction or mafia contradiction?

What is this referring to? In general I think contradictions are scummy unless there's a reason for the thought process to evolve that makes sense. I don't think it's necessarily scummy to say lane's inactivity isn't worth voting him over and then later deciding he's scummy as the game progresses, if that's what you're asking. However, what I don't like is how Kasu acknowledged the inactivity but otherwise brushed it off, and then next time lane showed up, doing exactly what he had been doing so far (this is important), Kasu told him his style of playing was "very scummy."

It reads to me like Kasu didn't really examine what WhyMafia meant about lane's lack of content and just said it wasn't worth voting him over. However, when lane went on to do more of the same he suddenly had a problem with it, saying lane was climbing his scumreads. It looks opportunistic to me because lane's style was fairly consistent and if Kasu is starting to have a problem with it now I don't think it makes sense that he didn't have a problem with it before.

I also think telling someone "your playstyle is scummy" doesn't accomplish anything productive except to inform them that they should change their style, but isn't conducive to conveying the scumminess to other players and actually lynching scum, if that makes sense.

Kantip, I see your concern @ Kasumeat, but is it town contradiction or mafia contradiction?

u dont get to ask him that kind of question
only kantrip can ask others those types of questions
u just need to accept his view on it because its how he feels it to be
and his feelings are a mod confirmed scum hunting tool

Seriously dude, what does this accomplish?

First of all, I am happy to answer questions and explain my thought processes, and I've done that quite a bit this game already. Second, what are you even attempting to do if not be a complete asshole? Like this isn't even scummy it's just toxic and useless regardless of your alignment.

[Kantrip]

I'm gonna do a full re-read and try to solidify my stances to find a direction for the Day. Will avoid quotes so there's no mega walls.

[Kantrip]

I'm about 6 pages into my re-read and I have a lot of notes. I'm scared to post them lest people complain about another wall but I can promise no quotes are involved. Should I post up to page 6 now or do it all at once when I'm through everything?

[Kantrip]

town (in order of towniness): davesaz-kasumeat-lane0168
scum (you being the strongest sr): rory-realeo-kantrip
everyone else is still undecided
and I dont have emotions involved

So when I initially asked what you thought of Realeo you said you kinda dug him so far. Why did you feel that way at that time? And what changed to make him one of your scumreads so fast?
Also, why the Rory scumread?

If you want a reads list from me it'd be pretty close to opposite of this

I'd be interested to see it. What do you think of Rory and Ari and why?

[Kantrip]

Dude your wall was literally to "prove a point" with a bunch of empty text just to harass me for not formatting my quotes correctly, and I'm not the only person you're being incredibly rude to. I'm not going to outright ignore you because we're still playing in this game together. All I ask is to be treated with human decency and I'll do the same. Sorry for calling you an asshole, can we please play this game moving forward without devolving to personal attacks?

Also I more wanted to know why you thought Realeo was townie when you first said you kinda dig him. I didn't miss why you scumread him now, I wanted to know why you townread him before.

[Kantrip]

Also here, I'll give you a wall full of substance and opinions that justifies all of my reads up to page 6 that prove that anything you think about my content being fake is 100% false.

Nothing noteworthy in RVS.

Realeo trying to leave RVS by telling people to unvote him because he’s at L-3 is null. After I responded to him, though, he pushed me for clarification and when Draynth voted me Realeo confirmed if it was RVS or a serious vote. These two actions show he cared about getting out of RVS with his statement and wasn’t just saying it to look good. Town points.

Draynth voted me saying it was “mostly RVS” but he was curious how I responded to Realeo’s questions. Once I did so, he ignored my reply in favour of an accusatory, rhetorical question about me trying to “skate by” due to giving two vote options without reasoning. Giving him the benefit of the doubt I assumed he was just assuming I didn’t have reasons, and when asked later he did confirm he thought I was “a bit scummy” for not sharing why I chose the names I did. Unfortunately he replaced out before I ever got a chance to see his opinion of my reasoning once I did explain it because that’s where I really would have gotten insight on his slot. As I explained, I chose him as one of the names because he was asking very shallow questions and I wanted to ensure I got his reaction to me offering two names without any explanation. Using him made sure it got his attention and his reaction was indeed consistent. Reflecting back on it though I don’t think that has any bearing on his alignment and I do wish he had stayed in the game to get his reaction after I explained all my rationale. Null.

In the first instance of Judge vs WhyMafia, Judge sarcastically complains about the game moving slow and how we would be out of RVS “in day 3 or 4.” I agree with WhyMafia questioning this especially at a time where people like Realeo, Draynth, and myself were having discussions that were definitely out of RVS. Slight scum points to Judge only because the post was useless but made him look like he cared about progression, but based on the behaviour he’s exhibited since then it might just be consistent with his personality.

I still get strong town vibes from PMysterious from his confusion as to why Realeo appeared so defensive. I liked WhyMafia being the first to pressure him for it though, especially at the time when it wasn’t clear if he understood concepts like reactions tests or not.

I’m completely null on Ari this far in my re-read. His posts are almost entirely fluff and it’s hard to get a read on him at this point.

I dislike lane’s response to Realeo in post #80. It is unnecessarily accusatory when Realeo is just trying to ask if lane’s first vote is RVS or serious. Realeo assumes serious in order to ask follow-up questions after lane is intentionally vague in his answer, and then lane accuses him of “making something out of nothing” when he hasn’t confirmed whether or not it’s even serious in the first place.
On the other hand, I do like that he is the first one to bring up the contradiction between PM questioning Realeo’s reaction to pressure and saying the wagon seems rushed because I think that’s a solid talking point at this stage in the game. However, that is cancelled out by the fact that when offered an explanation for why PM might be misunderstanding Realeo’s intentions, lane drops the part of his argument about PM thinking both Realeo AND his wagon are scummy, and pushes the fact that PM isn’t pressuring anyone on the wagon. He is changing his angle here and it comes across as though he is reaching to justify a scumread rather than reading PM organically. Scum points overall.

The second instance of Judge vs WhyMafia starts when Judge then votes dave saying “the replacement needs to talk more” and WhyMafia questions what the vote is going to accomplish. Judge’s response is a very snarky “just a bit more than your question accomplishes” and the game benefits exactly nothing from either of them. I’m consenting myself to the fact that Judge is just a very abrasive person at this point, but it doesn’t change the fact that WhyMafia is right, voting the replacement to get him to post more is a pretty useless vote. The fact that WhyMafia is being a bit of a hypocrite here shouldn’t weigh into Judge’s answer because it would be just as valid a question if one of the more active posters asked it. While WhyMafia at this point in the game has been hanging back and posting very little, the questions he asks and the observations he makes look like genuine scumhunting, whereas Judge who has a similar amount of content is spending it on whining about the game being slow and lashing out at people who ask him questions. Leaning WhyMafia town Judge scum.

Rory is the first one to point out that the multiball setup means scum can scumhunt to correct Realeo, but later agrees with WhyMafia and me for wanting to call Realeo town for the confusion. This along with the questions Rory’s asking make me really like him so far. He demonstrates that he’s reading into intent and his correction was not to point out a contradiction or call Realeo scummy, but just to stop discussion from going down a dead-end road. Town points.

Reading the interaction again, I still think Realeo not thinking about multiball is a townslip. Townies only need to concern themselves with finding scum, and prior to any scum flips we don’t need to worry about multiple factions or connections to other scum players. At this point in the game they’re effectively all the same so it makes sense to base reads off of things you typically would look for. Scum, on the other hand, is very aware of the nature of the setup because they know their partner and they know there is another team they have to worry about. A scum player will know from the get-go that they can scumhunt legitimately without having to fake it. For that reason, I sincerely believe Realeo townslipped.

Reading oldwino’s reads list again, I still completely disagree with the premise of his reads, and I also don’t think he looks as townie as I did before. I’m having trouble wrapping my head around why Judge is a town lean for “complaining about the game going slow and voting for dave” while dave is a scum lean for “complaining about the game going slow and voting for PMysterious.” Is the justification literally that Judge said he was voting an inactive to make him post more and dave didn’t give reasoning? Because if oldwino wanted to know the reason for dave’s vote he could have asked, but it seems more like he’s just trying to assign a balanced amount of town and scum reads and justifying them from there. Not to mention it’s entirely based off of activity levels in the first place but throws Ari in at the very bottom as a “null” read even though he should squarely fit into his scum criteria of “posting but not doing things.” I believe someone points this out later as well but yeah oldwino’s reads are coming off as very contradictory in my re-read and I don’t like it. Scum points.

Dave answers me when I ask him why he voted PMysterious saying he wanted to see who questions it and what commentary he can generate for it. That’s all he’s got. For someone who also complained about the game moving slow I’m very disappointed in what is essentially an RVS vote from him with no reasons for picking PM other than “I wonder how people will react to this.” I don’t know if I would even call this scummy it just baffles me.

Okay looks like Realeo is the one who calls out oldwino’s inconsistencies in his reads list. I agree with everything he says here. Town points.

I really don’t like Ari’s #131. He was in the thread at a previous time saying he was there and could answer any questions people had. I asked him a question that he ignored (maybe he just didn’t see it, I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt on that), and Realeo just said “Things.” Sure this isn’t helpful from Realeo, but I think it’s warranted given as Ari has come into the thread multiple times to post fluff or useless things like self-meta to defend himself and hasn’t done any actual scumhunting or commenting on the game. He also asks me if I have any stances of my own because of my joke about mindlessly sheeping Realeo again. This shows he’s just cherry picking things and, seeing as how he missed my question to him, he’s not even fully reading my posts enough to SEE if I have stances or not. I’m sure that’s not all he wasn’t reading, either. At first his lack of contribution was null to me, but this is the point where I find it super scummy. He’s trying to discredit the people pressuring him but not actually doing any work to address why they’re pressuring him, and this on top of doing nothing proactive himself. Major scum points.

Rory coming in with pressure on Ari basically right after this along with him agreeing with calling Realeo town make me feel really solid on Rory.

At this point in my re-read:
Town: Realeo, Rory, WhyMafia
Leaning scum: Judge, oldwino
Scum: Lane, Ari

Everyone else is null. Judge is the least confident read here because I think my judgement might be clouded by his abrasive personality. That said, I think I can remove myself from that enough to examine his content on its own and it still doesn’t sit well with me, so the read stands.

[Kantrip]

Responding to prod. Sorry for disappearing, I have been busy with a project. It'll be finished today and I'll finish my full read through.

[Kantrip]

Alright, continuing on from page 7. Reading Kasu’s entrance post again, I really don’t like that he has WhyMafia as a stronger scum read than Ari. He says he agrees with the Ari wagon completely, but WhyMafia is his strongest scumread because of his “push on Judge.” The thing is, at this point WhyMafia didn’t actually push Judge at all. All he said was an inactive vote doesn’t accomplish anything, yet Kasu is stretching it to “WhyMafia is reaching to find something to push someone for.” I don’t get that impression at all considering WhyMafia isn’t making any effort to push Judge but rather just calling him out for doing something useless. On top of this, Kasu’s post is very full of qualifiers and rhetorical questions which is common from scum who want to push people without coming off as aggressive and stepping on toes. Scum points.

On top of this, I dislike Kasu’s #156 for discrediting Realeo’s townslip. Later on I point out why it makes more sense to be town, and he agrees with me there, but initially he tries to say it’s more likely to be scum than town. I have a hard time believing he actually thought this at the time. He also told WhyMafia “I'm voting you because you're accusing somebody of being scummy because he's putting a vote on a lurker and encouraging that lurker to participate.” While WhyMafia does say that he thinks Judge is scummy, his actions in asking what the inactive vote accomplish really doesn’t look like “reaching to find a reason to call someone scum.” It looks way more like WhyMafia just thinks the vote is useless and he doesn’t put very much effort in pushing to lynch Judge as much as getting Judge to explain himself.

On reread Rory confuses me. I still find myself agreeing with his perspective, and his questions all make sense to me from someone who is looking to scumhunt, but I don’t like how much he’s sitting back. He doesn’t make an effort to really push his scumreads or explain his stances, and after he asks his questions, although they are good, it doesn’t seem like his stances are being influenced by answers, or that he cares about getting answers at all. The fact that it looks like his questions are legit scumhunting doesn’t mean as much because of the multiball set-up, so it makes me feel like he may be a strong player who has agreeable stances but the lack of productivity has me reconsidering my town read on him. He’s not a slot that I’d be interested in lynching Day 1 but I want to see if he goes anywhere with all his questions and starts making lynch pushes in the future, otherwise I could easily see him being scum.

Judge’s alignment continues to be an enigma to me. His massive wall post just to prove a point doesn’t read like something scum would do. It’s vindictive as hell and the way he throws a scum read at Realeo even though he had been townreading him before is whack. It doesn’t make sense for scum to do that in my mind. I think he might just be hella defensive and vindictive and OMGUS-ing everywhere. Moving to null, slight town. Still confusing as hell.

Kasu tries to argue that WhyMafia does push Judge for his inactive vote. While he does say he has the vote as scummy, the fact that he doesn’t make any active effort to present that case to other people says to me he’s really not concerned with pushing a lynch over it and Kasu suggesting as much is reaching. It’s not that WhyMafia doesn’t call the vote scummy, it’s that he worries more about getting explanations from Judge than he does trying to push him.

SS’s entrance into the game is interesting. I like his initiative and willingness to have unpopular opinions. Particularly his lane and Ari townreads and his Rory scumread. I disagree with townreading Ari based on meta, but other than that I can see where he’s coming from. I definitely understand what he’s saying about Rory because some of what he mentions was pinging for me as well, but I’m more hesitant just because I really identify with Rory’s thought processes.

I don’t like oldwino’s #266. I think Judge is OMGUS-ing by calling Realeo scum and his justification that Realeo voting him then voting back on Ari is some manipulative scum ploy to be elsewhere on the wagon is really silly. It feels opportunistic from oldwino to go along with this reasoning. However, considering his original reads list was an inconsistent mess based off of activity and content, I could also see him actually believing this. Mehhh.

Raya’s #286 leaves like no impression on me. She comments on some of PM’s posts from the beginning of the game and asks lane for clarification from an answer he gave in RVS. Her vote is still on Judge as far as I know but she’s not doing anything related to that. She’s also using a lot of qualifiers and “I like this BUT I dislike this” comments to say a lot of nothing. Scum points.

I like SS’s comments about Kasu’s scumhunting seeming conclusions-driven. I think that’s a good way of describing it and I see where he’s coming from. The interaction with Realeo here makes me like them both more. Town points for both.

I actually like Ari’s ISO posts. It irks me that it was so difficult to get content from him, but he’s rational in examining people who were voting for him. He likes Rory’s and my pushes on him but dislikes oldwino’s, and I think this is pretty reasonable and agree with what he says about oldwino’s reads list so early being weird and then his lane scumread being reachy and compromising to Ari seeming opportunistic. Town points for Ari, scum points for oldwino.

The Kasu/Ari exchange with Kasu accidentally putting Ari at L-1 without announcing it is not alignment indicating, imo.

Kasu’s #367 though does read as genuine. It’s the same feeling I have with Rory that he has with oldwino.

Realeo’s sudden desire to No Lynch looks weird as hell to me and I strongly disagree with it. I don’t like No Lynching on principle on Day 1 even if the set-up might possibly be beneficial for it. In this instance, it isn’t even beneficial because none of the potential power roles we may have even give us definitive information since they can only affect one scum team. Not sure where the intention to No Lynch comes from but it seems like he legitimately believes it’s a good idea. Lots of people are town reading him at this point and I don’t see scum doing something so out of left field like that. I think a lot of his jokes and stuff like the random No Lynch and the double vote fake claim are whacky but I still think he’s town.

I agree with what Kasu says about No Lynching being a bad idea and why. He’s right that our power roles can’t clear anyone no matter what we have but I think jumping to calling it a “scum claim” from Realeo is too much. The motivation just doesn’t make sense to me with the risk reward ratio of advocating a No Lynch. I think Realeo just advocated something really dumb but I can’t see why he would do it unless he seriously believed it was a good idea.

I may have to take that back. Realeo trying to argue he never advocated a No Lynch looks like mad weird backpedaling. He pretty clearly put his vote on No Lynch and said it was a good idea but it would be anti-town to explain why. It would be one thing to admit he was wrong and change his mind, but to say he never suggested such a thing is maaaad strange.

I really dislike how dave just keeps coming in with useless one-liner posts with like exactly one useless question and one excuse for inactivity. Leaning scum on him the more he keeps doing this….

I actually like Raya’s #401. Suddenly she’s commenting on current events and weighing lynch options rather than dwelling on RVS stuff that doesn’t matter. My stances are basically the opposite of hers but I think it’s a case of her reads being more surface-level. They’re at least consistent and it seems she’s more conservative with her vote but she at least mentions her intent to vote Ari of the current options which I’m going to count as effectively a vote.

Kasu feels like he’s coming on too strong with the Realeo push all of a sudden. I agree that the No Lynch stuff is weird but I think SS’s angle makes more sense. He’s considering the fact that the No Lynch push makes no sense for Realeo regardless of his alignment. Like it doesn’t help him as scum either. Then Kasu pushes SS for this as if it’s a scum slip when it was pretty clear to me he was talking in the hypothetical situation that Realeo is scum like Kasu is suggesting. Still seems to me like Kasu’s conclusions aren’t genuine and, like SS said earlier on, his stances are conclusion-based.

Apologies for another wall but I think it's beneficial to town to showcase my thought process.

VOTE: Kasumeat

[Kantrip]

@Crush -- I like Rory's early game because I understand what he's trying to accomplish with all his questions and I agree with his stances. However, as time goes on his lack of initiative slightly concerns me, and since scum can scumhunt genuinely too it's not necessarily a town-tell that I find my thought process lining up with his. I like Ari's ISO posts and once he starts contributing to the game I think he comes across looking much better.

[Kantrip]

I'm here. Not entirely sure when deadline is but I'll be around to swing something.

Kasu's blow-up is so hard to read. Like I'm positive he genuinely believes S_S is scum and if Kasu is scum his behaviour in being so adamant on lynching S_S or dying trying is super not in his best interests. It's not in his interests either way, but it is more likely for a townie to get that heated over an argument with a scumread in my experience. That said, I could see him being scum and getting so emotional over people siding with S_S over him when he truly believes S_S looks like obvious scum that he blows up like this too.

Either way I hate delving into emotional blow-ups like this. I used to be known for getting like that on another site as town so much so that I would fake it as scum to get people not to lynch me. It's really not fun to have to read though for other players and I would still be happy with lynching Kasu.

[Kantrip]

Kantrip do you really think that's enough to get someone lynched?

Not remotely but on top of all the other points myself and others have brought up yes.

[Kantrip]

What makes you wanna lynch Ari at this point WhyMafia?

[Kantrip]

Okay I've been out all day but I quickly caught up.

Actually starting to like Judge more, his re-assessment of his dave read looks really genuine. Gonna just have to chalk us up to a huge clash of personalities and I don't agree with his playstyle or how he forms his reads but I'm comfortable calling him a townread at this point.

I don't like people backing off Ari so easy for his "ah well, I'm just VT wish I could have played better I'll self hammer" post. I don't have a problem with Ari and I wasn't interested in lynching him but nobody who was down to lynch him should be convinced into changing their mind by that. It's easy for scum to fall back on an appeal to emotion such as that and it's not beneficial to either alignment.

I am fine with the Dave wagon, he's done a whole lot of nothing with excuses all game and the way he found a reason why Ari's post was scummy definitely looks opportunistic. It's weird because he didn't have a reason to be so opportunistic about it and if he was scum he could have just coasted for a bit longer and stayed under the radar for the day. I'm convinced he actually partially bought into what he was saying but I'm still cool with lynching him.

I'll hammer before deadline.

[Kantrip]

Whoa, rude. :c

[Kantrip]

Speak now or forever hold your peace.

15 minutes

[Kantrip]

I'm more giving dave or anyone else time before the hammer goes down, not looking for anything in particular.

[Kantrip]

Time's up.

*epic heroic cutscene*

VOTE: davesaz

[Kantrip]

That is one good night. I think going for Raya's mate is a good idea, finding them can eliminate a kill each night and make it a free 2v7 setup with clearable town roles. I'm gonna reread and see if anything jumps out. If not going for werewolf isn't bad either since scum can still hit each other that way but I think wiping out a faction altogether is better if we can find connections.

[Kantrip]

Okay, I am here right now and going over D1 and Raya’s ISO but I will be V/LA from tomorrow until monday for EVO.

So early on Raya’s line of questioning to oldwino looks out of place. PenguinPower votes him and Raya asks if there’s any reason or if it’s just RVS. PP says oldwino would understand and Raya’s response is “Umm, alright. In that case, oldwino, care to explain?” The awkward comes after oldwino gives a lengthy response starting with “I don’t mind at all” to which Raya says “Oh okay. So an inside joke/rvs. Thanks for the explanation.” The exchange is much more cordial than either player’s interactions with other people and looks sort of forced. Considering I already didn’t like oldwino’s day 1 I would look at him as a possible partner to Raya.

Raya’s delayed pressure of PM is strange as it comes far past RVS when the posts she was analyzing occurred. However the analysis looks like genuine scumhunting intent and I am inclined to rule PM out as a potential mafioso.

Lane is a similar case, I highly doubt Vedith is mafia with the way Raya interacted with the slot.

When weighing lynch options Raya includes PM (Crush), Ari, and oldwino as the potential lynch targets. She says she dislikes PM the most but doesn’t want to push Crush after just replacing the slot. So between oldwino and Ari she decides to push Ari and even keeps this up later in the day phase. She includes oldwino as a possibility and gives some reasons he could be scummy, but the whole paragraph is super wishy-washy and non-committal and concludes that she doesn’t want to lynch oldwino in the end. Here’s the quote for reference:

I also looked through Oldwino's iso. All his posts up to 109 are rvs/fluff. What pings me is in 109 he complains that the game is going to slow but hadn't done anything himself up until that point. He does give a read list that post which is a bit odd so early on but at least he was doing something about the game going slow even if I don't agree with his reasoning. That said, pushing the game forward may not be town indicative this game. If I'm not mistaken scum need to do at least some extent of hunting as well. So after their readlist they mostly just answer questions or explain it. After this most of his posts are actually filled with a fair amount of content. I actually don't mind Oldwino as besides those first few things I pointed out nothing has seemed scummy to me.

This quote just seems off to me similar to the early RVS interaction with oldwino, and contrasting it to Raya’s questions and interactions with other players it definitely stands out. This looks like how scum would treat a partner by distancing while still being safe from having to commit to a lynch by overall liking them the most of the lynch targets.

Considering how she maintained her Ari push when other options arose I’m confident in saying Ari is not her partner, and her interactions with S_S also look genuine, plus I’m still comfortable with S_S’s towniness.

All that said, I think oldwino stands out as a strong contender for second mafia member. His early day 1 reads list was super strange with players being placed in different categories for doing the same thing making it read as non-genuine. His play never improved from that bar and then his interactions with Raya are sus.

VOTE: oldwino

[Kantrip]

I still think Kasu is scummy but his confidence in Raya town and openness in admitting he felt that way after she flipped makes me think he's definitely not mafia. Leaning werewolf.

I liked Ari's ISO posts but then he never even finished them and I definitely think his "aw well wish I played better at least I'm just VT I'll hammer myself" post should NOT be getting him town points. Can't see him as mafia but I would definitely take another look if we were looking for werewolf suspects based on how convenient his activity was when there was pressure on him and how he stopped doing anything when the heat wasn't on him. I see the offer to self hammer as counter-intuitive regardless of his faction and only serves as an appeal to emotion to avoid a lynch. Putting him back in my scum leans.

Thinking more and more Judge is town. Realeo still town. S_S town. I liked the PM slot enough to call Crush town but Crush himself hasn't done much to cement that opinion. That said still thinking town by PoE.

Vedith and NotMafia are enigmas to me based on their lack of contribution and my mixed feelings on their predecessors. Vedith is unlikely to be mafia in my opinion just based on Raya's posts regarding lane, whereas Rory was a player I found myself agreeing with at first but became more and more worried about and now that NM has replaced in I'm like ehhhh. Could very well be either scum faction.

WhyMafia I need to read again because I can't remember a lasting impression or any strong feelings on him one way or the other at this point.

[Kantrip]

Raya was my strongest TR so I definitely need to re-evaluate this game. Her flip also makes me feel a little worse about Wino. Her post which acknowledges the case on him but ultimately ends with her "TRing" him is very typical of how I respond to my scumbros being cased when I'm scum.

In summation (from most to least likely imo):

Mafia: oldwino, Not_Mafia

Werewolf: Kasumeat, Aristo, Vedith, Not_Mafia, oldwino

Town: Realeo, S_S, Judge, Crush

???: WhyMafia

[Kantrip]

I'm not too sure about the math of the set-up if it's better to go for werewolf right now and hope for cross-fire or if it's better to eradicate a faction (and a night kill with it).

If the former I endorse the Ari pressure and would support wagons on the other people in my werewolf pool.

If the latter I strongly support an oldwino lynch.

[Kantrip]

Hey I'm finally back from Vegas. Seeing family this morning then I'll get to this

[Kantrip]

Okay Aristo is bugging me more and more. All he does is mention that he's around and willing to answer specific questions and then make sad posts when people scumread him. He continues to pad his post count without taking the initiative to scumread and make his own stances. I don't think he even ever finished his original ISOs from Day 1 when he was being pressured for a lynch.

Vedith also crawling up my scum reads.

Still feel like oldwino and Raya's interactions are super out of place but his play today has been more townie. Still think he is the other mafia but it's a bit more shaky.

[Kantrip]

I'd be okay with a N_M lynch but I think we have better options than policy lynching at this point.

I don't like Realeo's replacement. Still confident in the slot being town but we lost a voice that was actually helpful now.

WhyMafia

what makes Vedith scum in your opinion?