Open 696: Cosmopolitan [END]

[iiSq5024]

Nah, Snarky Snowman is where it's at. Why so snarky, anyway?

[iiSq5024]

VOTE: havingfitz

[iiSq5024]

Shortest day ever?

[iiSq5024]

Of course I knew it wasn't a lynch. I was looking for reactions but the mod ruined it.

[iiSq5024]

Of course I knew it wasn't a lynch. I was looking for reactions but the mod ruined it.

Also no... I do not believe this one bit.

Well then answer this: why would I draw attention to it? I thought the laughing face would make it pretty obvious once you realized...

[iiSq5024]

But if it was a calculated move, then I must have known it wasn't hammer.
Checkmate, boi.

[iiSq5024]

Cloaked in wifom? I'd say I've been pretty open about everything. You're the one creating wifom by suggesting that I intended to hammer.

Also you are overrated.

[iiSq5024]

Cloaked in wifom? I'd say I've been pretty open about everything. You're the one creating wifom by suggesting that I intended to hammer.

Also you are overrated.

that's bullshit

the setup, shitty as it was, was obviously meant to give you obvious opportunity (actually more than one) to question the obvious shit you were gonna be given following the obviously reckless vote to l-1
"why did you vote/'pretend' to quickhammer" -> "I knew it wasn't a hammer,

why would I draw attention to it

" (25 and 31)

italicized part is wifom

i'm not gonna explain how it works to you but you obviously did it and wifom on the first page after voting someone to l-1 (and believing it was a hammer) is mind bogglingly scummy

like on a scale going from 1 to confscum, you're the lynch today

It's not wifom. It's evidence. Wifom is when you have two choices, you pick one and try to convince people you picked the other. I didn't have two choices; either I thought I was hammering or I didn't.
I know which it was. And to prove to you which it was, I'm showing something I did that makes sense if it's a test but is idiotic if I think it's real. HOW. IS. THAT. WIFOM.

Now you're mixing two arguments here. Nobody can deny that I was at least being a little reckless. I still think scum would need to be ballsy to hammer and go into night with no idea who to kill, with a wrong kill being devastating. Not to mention there's always the fear they'd be hammering the other team. But that alone is a very poor reason to call me today's lynch.

[iiSq5024]

Here it is.
VOTE: CommKnight
Osuka might just be misunderstanding but 23 sounded like he knew exactly what he was doing. And 34 sounds like he's acknowledging that I didn't intend to hammer and searching for another reason to call me scum.
I like Creature and nykus so far, and maybe Paul.

[iiSq5024]

Or did you do it because you wanted to look scummy and wanted someone to say that your shit is wifom, just so you could refute it and look town?

I don't even have words for this. It's wifom because I might be trying to get someone to call it wifom so I can prove that it isn't wifom.

Also I'm laughing at you trying to convince me of the motivation behind MY action, and then saying that nothing can be done about it when I refuse to be convinced.

[iiSq5024]

Yes but I know that I don't have ulterior motives and trying to convince me that I do is pointless.

It would make more sense if your given ulterior motive made sense though, but it doesn't. I'm trying to look scummy so I can get attacked for it and then look towny? That's not wifom it's just stupid.

[iiSq5024]

I mean, it wasn't supposed to be a defense. "If you can't see it at this point then I'm sorry: in that case, nothing can be done." sounds like you are trying to convince me.

Anyway, I don't think this argument is getting anywhere. You've made your stance clear even though I think it makes no sense, so I guess other people can decide for themselves. In the meantime, I don't want to be distracted by it anymore. Do you have any other reads?

[iiSq5024]

Oh you're a TOS player. That makes so much sense...

Also nykus do you mean that Paul is scum for defending me because I'm his partner, or because he wants to buddy up to a townie?

[iiSq5024]

Yes I am an attentive person and Creature said "more votes on havingfitz" before. And I don't know, I think if somebody had made an angry post yelling at me it might have been illuminating.

[iiSq5024]

Interesting theory. Problem is I can empathasize with him calling your actions a "very anti-town thing to do"

I mean, it COULD have been anti-town if somebody had actually hammered. But either way, Comm is pushing on something that he claims is anti-town, rather than something scummy.

[iiSq5024]

VOTE: Assemble

[iiSq5024]

Inb4 Assemble claims PGO

I will legitimately lol

[iiSq5024]

Also inb4 Comm accuses me of signaling to Assemble to claim PGO.

[iiSq5024]

I want Assemble to claim in his next post.

[iiSq5024]

Stop talking about it
Let him claim

[iiSq5024]

PGO claim is scumclaim, nobody CC please
My vote is never moving.

[iiSq5024]

What?

[iiSq5024]

I'm amazed you think I'd let my partner do something so moronic.

[iiSq5024]

But I know the setup and I have common sense. So the first thing I'd say in the mafia PT is "don't crumb scum because that's stupid".

Also if we're partners, he doesn't keep ignoring me after I start to hardbus him.

But anyway we can deal with that after the flip. Though I'll try not to get too focused on defending (which is something that tends to happen).

[iiSq5024]

Great catch by fire

VOTE: nykus

[iiSq5024]

What do you guys think of J&V? I like Keyser's style but I don't know how I feel about their content.

[iiSq5024]

Also hi J&V. Any other reads besides Fireball and CommKnight?

[iiSq5024]

IT'S NOT WIFOM HOLY SHIT
What about it don't you like?

[iiSq5024]

So you don't like that I posted in English instead of Chinese?

That isn't helpful.

[iiSq5024]

That's one of the main reasons I was on Sq, and then Assemble came on, sheeped Sq and dropped that clue that you immediately cracked.

So Sq is next in line I think. He kinda got done-in by his buddy there.

So you're voting me because somebody who flipped scum voted with me?

That's bullshit.

[iiSq5024]

Dammit Realeo

I want to see if they can unconsciously change my mind the next 1-2 days or not.

I'll take it that I'm not one of them then?

[iiSq5024]

Why was day 1 over a week but today we only have 14 hours?

Probably a typo.

Wanna start playing the game?

[iiSq5024]

I mean, Assemble did have a partner. So they're not useless.

[iiSq5024]

Assemble literally crumbed scum. There was no way he was flipping town there.

[iiSq5024]

Because 176 was a pretty obvious soft, and him claiming PGO would remove any chance of him not dying he had.

[iiSq5024]

Well, that would be fairly hard to do, considering they don't have day chat. So how could you stop him from doing something moronic without actually giving yourself away, if they don't have day chat?

That's the thing though. Assemble's crumb was stupid, but the one thing it wasn't was impulsive. He clearly planned it out, and I'd be very surprised if he said something like that without at least saying to his partner "hey I'm gonna crumb scum". So I think his partner is likely the type of person to be like "eh, do whatever you want". But more on that below.

I've been working on some reads, and I know somebody was asking about them. (Steel I think)

Town

Fireball: That would be a stupid play as scum. If he's scum he'll probably be killed at night anyway.

CommKnight: Similar, but not quite as strong. Although CommKnight didn't actually discover the crumb, he took responsibility for pushing it in a way that I find unlikely for scum of either team. Once again, if he's scum he probably dies at night anyway.

Creature: Creature is hiding information in the manner of a townie playing his cards close to his chest. He's asking questions and making responses that feel natural and seem much more geared toward solving the game than manipulating people. And he has a bunch of one-liners that are spontaneous and are not planned out that are very likely how he's actually seeing the game.

havingfitz: This is a bit of a composite read. From the way Assemble ignored me and voted with me, I don't think it would be the case that I just pretended to hammer his partner. So I don't think havingfitz is scum B. As for A, nobody said anything about him when he was wagoned, not to mention that a good number of people did vote him early. I think that his partner would have said something to defend him rather than just let him get wagoned to L-1. Additionally, I think his play is indicative of someone actually analyzing and considering the options: he conspicuously refused to jump on both the Steel wagon Day 1 and my wagon today.

Null-town

Jules and Vincent: I don't see what Creature sees. For one, they're putting a good amount of effort in, and I don't see anything glaring that looks like they're trying to go for an easy out. (Even with Paul, they gave a reason, though I happen to disagree about that post.) Additionally, despite their longer posts, I see a lot of the same spontaneous play that I see from Creature-- they're giving genuine unfiltered reactions to posts.

Steel: I like that he recognized that I would have played differently around Assemble had we been partners. I like that he doesn't want to rush, and I also agree with some of his reads.

Not sure

NotTheRealPaul: I had Paul as a town lean for a while. I thought his play around my fake hammer was really genuine and he didn't seem to be forcing ideas. I also liked how he admitted he didn't trust me but didn't try to wagon me yet. I disagree with Jules, I thought 170 was a really solid reaction to the crumb. And I don't think his PGO claim idea was scum-motivated; it was anti-town, but there's an important difference there (which some people could do to understand better). But his vote on me is completely at odds to most of what he's done, and it seems horribly opportunistic. So I'm currently reevaluating that early read.

Null-scum

In particular, this is where I think the other Mafia B will be found. These are the people most likely to tell Assemble to do what he wants, because they don't seem terribly invested in the game themselves.

SnarkySnowman: Nice, three posts, one of them voting the mod and one complaining about how the mod didn't register it. And his last post is an essentially naked vote on Paul with a line that pings me ("Can we talk about how this is still scum").

Flubbernugget: Similar story, six posts with essentially no content. Softly shading me and Paul (the easiest targets in the game), and the only redeeming thing is his osuka vote. But I think osuka is A anyway, so that fits with Flubber being B.

Scum

osuka: I could write paragraphs about this read, but I won't. The self vote, the immediate targeting of me, the false bravado, not to mention the WIFOM accusation. (Which, by the way, he was unable to support: when I pressed him about exactly what part of it was WIFOM, his only response was "maybe you're intentionally action scummy so you can get towncred for refuting people when they call you out!") And by the way, I'd like somebody who is reasoned and logical to discuss the WIFOM thing with me, because with my understanding of the term it is being misapplied, since it wasn't my CHOICE whether or not I believed it was a hammer. Continuing on, he is antagonistic and tries to convince me that I'm scum, then denies doing it, and he shades Paul but never actually votes him in favor of yelling "iisq is scum" over and over.

nykus: This is less of a direct bullshit read and more of a bad feeling about a lot of their posts. Calling me and Paul a team was bad, vote on Steel was surface-level analysis without thinking about it really at all, and the "great catch by fire" line reads as a fake response to a teammate getting caught.

[iiSq5024]

osuka: I could write paragraphs about this read, but I won't. The self vote, the immediate targeting of me, the false bravado, not to mention the WIFOM accusation. (Which, by the way, he was unable to support: when I pressed him about exactly what part of it was WIFOM, his only response was "maybe you're intentionally action scummy so you can get towncred for refuting people when they call you out!") And by the way, I'd like somebody who is reasoned and logical to discuss the WIFOM thing with me, because with my understanding of the term it is being misapplied, since it wasn't my CHOICE whether or not I believed it was a hammer. Continuing on, he is antagonistic and tries to convince me that I'm scum, then denies doing it, and he shades Paul but never actually votes him in favor of yelling "iisq is scum" over and over.

oh iisq, i'm flattered

here's the breakdown of this game so far, for your pretty face's convenience: ntrp is town, i'm town and you're scum
town acting kinda scummy sometimes so as to be townleaned (especially d1) is common, and that's to avoid get targeted n1


i just think it's funny that i'm scum with nykus is all

See, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. You have no case on me, so you're just yelling that I'm scum over and over again. And you're bringing up theory things that make literally no sense, like town acting scummy to be townleaned... I don't know what that even means.

Not to mention that you're misrepresenting my reads; unlike you I don't think I'm always right. I never said you were scum with nykus, just because I think the two of you are most likely to be scum.

I would like to know why everyone is okay with lynching me, because I'm confident that at least a few of the players pushing me are town. And I want to have an actual discussion about it rather than people just waving me off.

[iiSq5024]

Also, I don't believe that osuka actually thought that there were only 14 hours left.

[iiSq5024]

To try to get me quicklynched.

[iiSq5024]

From what I can tell, either you're scum or your game is shit

Please elaborate, because so far all I can tell is that I did one thing on page 1 you didn't like.

[iiSq5024]

You mean like the readlist I made not 2 pages ago? While you've shared a total of two reads all game?

Right. Clearly you know how to play the game so much better than I do.

[iiSq5024]

Oh, I'm sorry. You've also made one post each calling J&V and nykus scum. So four reads.

That's so much better

[iiSq5024]

Honestly I should just stop responding to your posts though because all it's doing is getting me pissed and you're clearly not going to allow me to interact meaningfully with you.

[iiSq5024]

uh yeah it's called opportunism

Maybe instead you should ask yourself why everyone finds that person scummy and then reread and form your own opinion of them...

[iiSq5024]

The reason you got no answer is that there's essentially no case on me. People are pissed about my fakehammer and they think Assemble slipped I'm his partner but it's all pretty much bullshit.

[iiSq5024]

We could try wagoning a lurker. They'll either have to post content or eat rope.

are you not okay with the nykus wagon then? because their content today has been basically nil.

[iiSq5024]

Screw you, Realeo.

[iiSq5024]

Very funny.

Also holy shit Virtuoso was dumb.

[iiSq5024]

Let's not quicklynch again please.

[iiSq5024]

Or he was the obvious target and scum were trying to avoid the same kill.

I don't think this makes sense, because I think if anything Fireball was obviously not B but could have been A. (Lol) So if he were the obvious target I'd expect him to be the obvious target for A who would know for a fact that they weren't shooting A.

Suspicion: Fireball didn't suspect any of Mafia A. Nothing better than keeping an influential player alive with bad reads.

This seems a lot more likely. Looks better for Paul (and havingfitz).

Creature why do you townread Snarky?

[iiSq5024]

Jules & Vincent can be town for now. Don't want to go for Paul today either. Creature and havingfitz are still town, that leaves:
Flubber, Snarky, Steel

I'd prefer Flubber today because Snarky/Steel seems unlikely.
VOTE: Flubber

[iiSq5024]

Lol?

[iiSq5024]

Steel according to your last stated reads you had Snarky lower than Flubber, what changed?

[iiSq5024]

Might be low activity for the next few days, I'm gonna be busy. Don't quicklynch anybody...

Also as scum I would be terrified of killing osuka there. (Not to mention that it wouldn't make any sense as I was scumreading him, though I did reevaluate a bit on him overnight.) He basically yelled that I was scum for no reason so I would have tried to keep him alive and get people to ignore him rather than having him dead and flipped town. If anything it's an attempt to frame me, but so far the only person to even bring it up is J&V and they didn't try to push me with it. So more likely it was just trying to remove opposition to a Paul lynch.

[iiSq5024]

I don't think this makes sense, because I think if anything Fireball was obviously not B but could have been A

You think A would have outted B? I don't. But I assumed B wouldn't out B either so

Like I said, I assumed it was planned out ahead of time in the scum PT. So as little sense as A outing B makes, B outing B made even less sense.

[iiSq5024]

Snarky/Steel seems unlikely.

Please can you go through this with me in detail.

Snarky had so little content on Day 1 that I don't think they make 130 if partnered with Steel. It's a random naked vote that would provide no towncred.

RE: the osuka night kill

If anything it's an attempt to frame me

I'm uncertain whether I agree with this. So you think Mafia A chose to kill Osuka because you think they wanted to push through a reflex-lynch on you the day after? (you were already

not

being town read by the majority).

I don't know. It might not be relevant but I'd bet that scum were at least considering me as a potential mislynch, given the amount of people who expressed a scumread on me yesterday.

So more likely it was just trying to remove opposition to a Paul lynch.

I don't think I believe this either. Osuka was only one voice, the majority didn't want Paul alive.
Is Paul a town-read of yours now? (i.e is he very unlikely to be mafia A?).

- Vincent Vega

That's the point; the majority didn't want Paul alive, but osuka did. So by killing osuka, they can make it easier to lynch Paul.

Of course it might just be to remove an influential town voice, or some combination of the three. But those were my initial thoughts.

And yes, I do townread Paul. I don't believe he kills osuka there.

[iiSq5024]

You said you'd read up on Flubber 5 days ago...

[iiSq5024]

I say we do Flubber > Steel

And if game doesn't end, we find a way.

Do you townread Snarky then?

I'm still waiting on Snarky's promised content.

[iiSq5024]

Elaborate?

[iiSq5024]

Elaborate?

Hopefully that question isn't directed towards me.

It's not, it's for Flubber regarding the Steel read.

[iiSq5024]

Snarky why do you scumread Paul/Mary?

[iiSq5024]

Maybe you can talk to me about Paul then. Why is that slot scum?

[iiSq5024]

So he suggested a bad claim strategy and had bad reads. Is there a reason a townie couldn't do those things and just be wrong?

And I think that him lurking can't be taken as indicative of alignment given that he replaced out; he actually couldn't handle the game.

Osuka pretty heavily and vocally townread Paul. Why would Paul kill him?

[iiSq5024]

Because I think his slot is town, and I definitely don't think it's right to lynch Mary over the lurkers right now.

What are your thoughts on Snarky, Flubber and Steel?

[iiSq5024]

Flubber in particular because I don't like the way his wagon died for a bit.

[iiSq5024]

The other two...Flubber and Steel have a few spots where they feel town but a general lack of posting/content makes developing a scum read more advanced than 'let's policy lynch the lurkers' difficult to come to.

It's not a policy lynch. There is a distinct scum motivation behind what Flubber is doing.

I do understand the points of keeping someone in who town reads you because it helps your survival in the game. But one person can't save your skin if a handful scum read you.

Maybe not. But osuka was the ONLY player who would have tried to save Paul's skin if he got wagoned.

[iiSq5024]

You can't see the scum motivation behind not posting any content?

Hard to make a case on, easy to disappear into the background, no associative tells.

[iiSq5024]

Not to mention that you don't have to fake scumhunting.

[iiSq5024]

Because the others are engaging and giving reasons for things at least. Flubber is giving naked reads and when I did press him to explain he gave a pretty weak one-line answer.
Paul's content today was lacking but given his V/LA and replace-out I don't think he was intentionally avoiding the game.

[iiSq5024]

Just because I can't see a reason for a read (and I can, since for the most part I agree with those) doesn't mean you shouldn't be talking about them, and you don't really seem to be engaging people or trying to solve the game at all. It's not the reads that bother me but the lack of anything else. (And by the way, if you don't have a good reason to townread me, why do you still townread me?)

How is a comment on a low activity poster going to be anything but weak?

Why must it be? It's possible to have legitimate analysis of low-content posters by looking at the content they do have, but your analysis of Steel was basically "his thoughts are genuine". Which thoughts were genuine and why would you think scum wouldn't have them?

[iiSq5024]

You're not serious, are you?

[iiSq5024]

hand in hand with foot in mouth.

This is an awesome expression but I'm not sure if you linked the right post? That's a Creature post and Creature's not lurking.

[iiSq5024]

Orly?

[iiSq5024]

Why?

[iiSq5024]

That doesn't explain anything

[iiSq5024]

hand in hand with foot in mouth.

This is an awesome expression but I'm not sure if you linked the right post? That's a Creature post and Creature's not lurking.

532

That makes more sense.

Jules & Vincent can be town for now. Don't want to go for Paul today either. Creature and havingfitz are still town, that leaves:
Flubber, Snarky, Steel

I'd prefer Flubber today because Snarky/Steel seems unlikely.
VOTE: Flubber

Explain this more.
Why Flubber?

J&V is town for actually trying to solve the game, and I didn't want to lynch Paul for a variety of reasons that I've talked about before. (Also he was the earlier major wagon and I felt like scum pegged him as an easy target, so at the very least I'd want to save him for later.)

Flubber had a few nasty posts Day 2 including his shading of Paul and his comment "I don't see why Fireball can't be scum A". Other than that it's all been explained and I don't care to repeat myself.

[iiSq5024]

I mean, do you think I could be teamed with Flubber?

[iiSq5024]

Snarky is doing something, isn't that enough to townread him?

Is this a meta thing?

iiSq has been doing stuff I don't think scum would do.

What did I tell you about thinking?
Just vote with me.

You're wasting your vote right now. Please don't.
You joked so much about hammering Flubber, I'd like to see you do it.

[iiSq5024]

You're wasting your vote right now. Please don't.
You joked so much about hammering Flubber, I'd like to see you do it.

I'm voting scum. Wtf are you doing?

I'm playing the game. You don't seem to be making an effort to do likewise.

Weekend over. What's up?

Fitz, talk to me about your vote on Mary.

- Jules

He's already done this...

[iiSq5024]

Havingfitz, are you willing to hammer Flubber?

He's avoiding the thread at this point and it's stalling the game. And Game Replacement isn't going to hammer him either.

[iiSq5024]

Anyone opposes lynching Jules and Vincent?

I absolutely oppose that.

I'll take another look at them after Flubber flips (we get a nightskip either way) but switching the wagon now is a bad idea, especially to someone with as much content as them.

[iiSq5024]

Bussing is a thing. Why does Mary scum rule out Flubber scum in your eyes?

[iiSq5024]

Ugh, then what else should we do? If there's nothing else to do, we can already

hammer Flubber.

This is what we should do.

[iiSq5024]

Scum need three mislynches to win whether they bus or not; in fact the nightskip would make it harder because we'd have even numbers. (Something which a no-lynch would also do, while also costing us a mislynch.)

How confident would you say you are on your Mary read?

[iiSq5024]

Did you forget that tonight will be skipped due to Virtuoso's death?

[iiSq5024]

That's why Flubber should definitely be hammered. Because we lose a mislynch otherwise.

[iiSq5024]

I don't know, but one of them had better do it.

[iiSq5024]

Waiting for the flip. Crossing my fingers.

[iiSq5024]

I mean, I'm going to reevaluate regardless. But if he's town, it makes you look better and the others who refused to hammer worse.

[iiSq5024]

I expect a lot out of you today to not lynch you. Scum where on the wagon, alllll day long. Why should I not lynch you?

Ironic since I've done tons of analysis and reasoning and the only explanation you've given for ANYTHING is "scum were on the wagon allll day long".

[iiSq5024]

Also I'm curious, why would you expect scum to be on the start of the wagon rather than the end?

[iiSq5024]

The first three players on that wagon were me and my two strongest townreads. So I think it's right to lynch within {Snarky, Game Replacement} today.

[iiSq5024]

Although I am planning to reread J&V and havingfitz at some point. It's probably one of them with one of the last two on the wagon but J&V and havingfitz will be easier to sort with flips, having more interactions.

[iiSq5024]

Hm didn't expect flubber to flip town with an Iso like that also forgot night gets skipped so that's great for us I don't have any confident scumreads so I'll do some reading would like some reason behind that vote by fliz given all he has said is "My slot was on 2 ml's"

He gave reasons before, mostly based on actions by your predecessor. Bad votes, suggesting the PGO claim and making promises and never delivering. I think the first two can come just as easily from bad town (the PGO claim idea in particular is a really gutsy idea for scum who know it would be harmful to town), and the last is made irrelevant by the fact that he replaced out (so he wasn't just faking an inability to post).

[iiSq5024]

Okay? Yeah Creature is town congrats.

[iiSq5024]

Explain?

[iiSq5024]

553 wasn't a readlist, it was separating the players into groups based on who was on and off the wagon.

And the congratulating the doctor tell is very weak.

[iiSq5024]

Also that VC really doesn't look good for Game Replacement.

[iiSq5024]

iiSQ....where are you at wrt JV and Snarky?

And Mary?

Mary is town, I've been very vocal about that read I thought.

Snarky is I really don't know. From what people are saying they always play like this and the main thing in their play to dislike (besides lurking) is the Paul/Mary push which has been way less well supported than yours (I still think yours is wrong, but at least you HAVE reasons).

I hate to be so wishy washy but with J&V too it really depends on how they play today. They had very solid posts earlier but then just dropped off the face of the earth and I haven't loved anything they've said since they came back.

[iiSq5024]

Also I'm a goon now yay.

[iiSq5024]

but you're mafia scum so you must be my partner!

Seriously though, do you have anything to contribute?

[iiSq5024]

A variety of reasons, most of which I've explained. Paul had a lot of natural and unforced thoughts day 1, and I thought scum were trying to lynch him D1 and now they've kept the slot as a possible mislynch later. I don't think he kills osuka who was defending him so heavily and I think that the main reasons the slot is being scumread are very shallow and don't really show scum motivation (making promises but not delivering, the PGO claim idea, etc). And Mary's been fine so far.

And the goon thing was a reference to my title... I made my 100th post and so my title changed.

[iiSq5024]

Last I checked it was more than one vote required to lynch

[iiSq5024]

Mary needs to die. iisq should die. game replacement is 3rd on my shit list.

These reads are toilet tier

Can you elaborate?

[iiSq5024]

So I think it's right to lynch within {Snarky, Game Replacement} today.

iisq5024

voted by

Game Replacement, Snarky Snowman

[iiSq5024]

Creature how do you feel about those two?

[iiSq5024]

Are you just going to keep antagonizing me?

[iiSq5024]

VOTE: Game Replacement

You can die then.

[iiSq5024]

Like, I have no patience for this.

We've had enough trouble with lurkers not playing the game.

[iiSq5024]

It's a team game. If you're town you need to start actually working with your team or I'll have no qualms about lynching you.

[iiSq5024]

Sorting people and progressing game.

What are you doing?

[iiSq5024]

Well there's a slight hitch in your plan then.

And it's not my responsibility to explain to you why my play is town-motivated. I have over 100 posts; God forbid you read some of them and form your own opinions.

[iiSq5024]

And if you've already done that and come up with a scumread on me (which I'd hope is the case even if you are scum BSing the read), then why would you expect that I'd be able to say something to change your interpretation of my posts? Why wouldn't you talk to other people about it?

[iiSq5024]

In all honesty it feels like you're being lazy and not trying to play the game (which could be town who doesn't care or scum being strategic), and then when I call you out on it you try to deflect the blame onto me.

[iiSq5024]

Why is nobody trying.

I feel like I've done everything I can for now, like half the other players (at least) have outstanding questions to them...

I guess I could reread some people but that's unlikely to change my opinions for today.

[iiSq5024]

What do you think about Jules and Vincent?

I don't think they're partnered with Game Replacement. I could imagine a bus there, but I think if they were bussing they'd express more uncertainty on me to keep their options open if people did start to switch away from Game Replacement.

I don't really think I can analyze more in depth before Game Replacement flips though. Because yeah a lot of their content is superficial but so was Flubber's and he flipped town.

[iiSq5024]

Sigh.

I would say don't vote so early in LYLO though there's absolutely no way you and J&V are both town so I'm not that concerned.

In fact with the Creature flip I'm having a hard time seeing any world where J&V is town. But I'm planning to do some rereading for sure before anything else.

[iiSq5024]

So after doing a bit of rereading I'm still confident Mary is town. Paul just had so many lines early on that I don't think scum would say, and all three other players pushed on Mary at some point in the game.

However I'm kind of at a wall deciding between {J&V, havingfitz, Snarky}. Havingfitz and Snarky on the surface seems the least likely because both have been pushing on Mary's slot all game which would be such a weird move if they're scum together. However, I do think that this team is unlikely because Snarky's J&V vote makes no sense from that perspective; if they've staked so much pushing on Mary and they can literally win the game by getting her lynched, why would one of them abruptly switch elsewhere? (Also, I don't get the Creature kill in a world where J&V and Mary are both town-- I think I would be dead in that case as I've been defending Mary all game.)

The bottom line is that I am pretty sure J&V is scum (though I want to hear from other people before voting). I don't think we should discount the possibility of Snarky bussing, but I'm also very interested to hear how havingfitz feels about J&V. Especially with his "what if Creature was wrong?" which feels like casting shade more than anything.

[iiSq5024]

i didnt think i was reaally defending him but i guess sure.

*shrug*

also id like to add my scum!game is much better than my town!game

Lines like this one.

[iiSq5024]

I think that using "I'm playing badly, therefore I'm town" as a tell is such a risky move as scum. It reads as though that's how he actually felt about his game, and that he was living up to it.

[iiSq5024]

There's also the PGO claim thing. Yes, it was dumb, but that's not the point and everyone else said "he's suggesting an anti-town thing, he must be scum trying to pull one over on us" and stopped.

If he knew it was anti-town, he must have expected that reaction, right? So either he was scum and suggested a strategy he thought would be harming his team, or he was town honestly trying to help and just getting it wrong. Which town do ALL THE TIME.

[iiSq5024]

Like, look at this from my point of view. Havingfitz pushed on Paul all game. You pushed on Paul pretty much all game. J&V pushed on Paul some and Mary pushed on J&V a lot too. Where does that fit in with Mary being scum? It's probably due to me that Mary WASN'T lynched before.

[iiSq5024]

Which part is too scummy to be scum?

[iiSq5024]

I kind of see what you're talking about. I don't mean that he was playing scummy and therefore was town though. It was more along the lines of, his weakness shouldn't be taken as scum indicative. Which it shouldn't because town players can definitely play badly and scum players well.

I guess it comes down to a gut feeling if you pick it apart but the way he did it doesn't strike me as a scum way. Because (assuming what he said is true) that would mean he'd be making an effort to look like bad town, but the things that he did that people considered bad (his play regarding my fake hammer, his PGO claim idea) are not things that he would fake.

Basically, it's not "too scummy to be scum" but it could be considered "too bad to be scum". Once again you're confusing bad play with scum play which I talked about in 817.

[iiSq5024]

Well, what did you dislike about Paul?

[iiSq5024]

Looking forward to hearing thoughts from both of you.

[iiSq5024]

You and J&V (who have both promised content later), because that's my top pick for the team right now.

[iiSq5024]

Also, have your thoughts on Mary changed at all now that you and she are both alive in LYLO?

[iiSq5024]

Can somebody like... do something?

Three players have as yet unfulfilled promises to reread, and Snarky disappeared in the middle of our conversation.

[iiSq5024]

Also...Mary is due a prod and everyone else is within 6 hrs of one. Lol...

Well you can start by giving your thoughts that you promised 4 days ago.

Like, I'm literally just waiting to see what other people say. My reads are evident enough though I tried to hide them for a bit. Maybe we should all post a list like this:
Town
Mary Saotome
SnarkySnowman
Havingfitz
Jules and Vincent
Scum

[iiSq5024]

I noticed that too.

Havingfitz's sudden reliance on VCA is weird (especially for someone who came out of nowhere and hammered a mislynch) and I feel like there's a decent chance he's distancing J&V, especially since I just called them out as the most likely team. J&V's reread is fine so far (no strong feeling either way) but I want to see the rest of it.

[iiSq5024]

Although I am planning to look at the likelihood of havingfitz/SnarkySnowman because I feel like I discounted it too easily.

[iiSq5024]

Snarky made one post saying they didn't think you were scum. If you felt it was for no tangible reason why didn't you ask about it then (and instead asked about it only now, now that Snarky is scumreading you again)?

Although Snarky, I wouldn't call that opportunistic. Survivalistic maybe, though they don't feel desperate.

After looking through Snarky's ISO again they're still my top pick for the other townie. (Despite their low content they have a few posts that IMO are more likely town-motivated.) And if Snarky and havingfitz are teamed, them both dropping their Mary scumreads and going for J&V makes almost no sense to me. The only possibility is that they were afraid that I would shut down any chance to lynch Mary (which I probably would), but in that case why wouldn't they kill me and leave Creature alive (especially since Creature would be pushing town-J&V)?

[iiSq5024]

J&V, why do you think Snarky and havingfitz would play the way they did if they were partners? Why would they both push Mary all game and then suddenly abandon it today?

[iiSq5024]

Coming back to this. Show me please. I can't see when/why/how Snowman trumps our slot.

Between Snarky and havingfitz, I think Snarky's switch in reads makes a lot more sense. Creature died and Snarky's knee-jerk reaction was to trust the townie who was just killed (810), but then they decided to slow down (814). That doesn't read like scum pushing an agenda at all.

The other thing is that I feel like if Snarky is scum they have to be with you anyway, because the Creature kill makes no sense otherwise. Creature was defending Snarky and pushing you... it doesn't make sense for them to kill him in that case. And I'm willing to take Creature's word that Snarky is playing the way they usually do, unless you can show me otherwise?

I still don't feel totally right about you/havingfitz though. It could just be that scum are killing to mess with my head or because they knew I'd make that argument (seeing the one I made about osuka). Because the only thing that doesn't make sense in that scenario is, why did havingfitz drop his Mary read entirely? Even if you two planned to bus each other, it would make more sense for havingfitz to sell Mary as your partner to set up a lynch otherwise, but he seems to be selling anyone but Mary as your partner.

If you voted havingfitz, I'd probably follow you, although I'm interested to know how Snarky feels about havingfitz too. In fact looking back at Snarky's ISO I don't think they've said anything about havingfitz all game. And havingfitz's interactions with Snarky consist of keeping them at the edge of his focus and calling him kind of scummy but never enough to pursue... ugh. Maybe I've been relying too much on NKA.

[iiSq5024]

So now I'm back to being able to see any of the three teams (J&V/havingfitz, J&V/Snarky, Snarky/havingfitz) as possible.

I really need to see concrete reads from people, and I also want to know where Mary's head is at, particularly regarding the possibility of a Snarky/havingfitz team.

[iiSq5024]

I noticed that too.

Havingfitz's sudden reliance on VCA is weird (especially for someone who came out of nowhere and hammered a mislynch) and I feel like there's a decent chance he's distancing J&V, especially since I just called them out as the most likely team. J&V's reread is fine so far (no strong feeling either way) but I want to see the rest of it.

Sudden? That's lame shade. VCA before today would have been much weaker. Yesterday miiight have been an option but I just didn't get to it. Today was optimal. Not "sudden."

Are you distancing J&V as well

Also this is terrible post. Speaking of lame shades, look at that last line... What I said was true. It WAS sudden, in that you went from not doing VCA to relying almost exclusively on VCA. J&V's question was a good one; what caused you to disregard your previous reads completely? The weirdness comes in the fact that you used a completely new method to push a completely new scumread without really explaining why you switched.

[iiSq5024]

How do you figure? I've been trying to keep an open mind and avoid locking onto the easiest scumread...

[iiSq5024]

Also, Snarky, can you give your read on havingfitz?

[iiSq5024]

I don't doubt that you've used VCA before, but did you completely drop your previous reads in that game too?

[iiSq5024]

I think Mary just likes putting L's in people's names where they don't belong (and FYI Mary the first letter of my username is an I, not an L, though I don't really care what you call me as long as it's clear )

And Mary, I don't see any evidence that havingfitz actually wants to lynch Snarky. He mentioned Snarky as a potential partner to J&V but he did that with me too and he seems content to just keep shading me. (And then call it a joke apparently.) Between J&V and havingfitz I'm actually feeling that J&V is more likely town at the moment (though I've been going back and forth in my head) but I think whichever of them is scum is teamed with Snarky. (I no longer think J&V and havingfitz is a possible team... they seem to be going at each other's throats in an aggressive way that feels like they both actually care about their pushes and are not just doing it for towncred.)

[iiSq5024]

5 days left. Gun to my head I'd vote Snarky but I'm not ready to vote yet.
Snarky, can you answer my question in 887?

[iiSq5024]

Also, Snarky, can you give your read on havingfitz?

pretty likely town. I've seen him play this way in other games and thought he was scum in one or two but flipped town. same feel same play

This doesn't help me feel better about the possibility of you two being a team
Anything specific? What do you think of his 180 on Mary?

[iiSq5024]

Also, I just remembered I didn't respond to 901. I think that looking for partner reads is almost essential in LYLO because otherwise there's way more noise. With reading people individually you have a decent chance to be wrong and one read can cost the game, whereas you can draw broader and more informed conclusions by looking at possible teams.

That said, I am using an individual read (Mary) to inform my process of elimination, and then I'm considering possible teams in the other three.

Mary, what do you think of the Snarky/havingfitz possibility? I see arguments for and against it and you're the only other one who has any sort of unbiased opinion here.

[iiSq5024]

Ok so I really feel like it's either Snarky and havingfitz or Snarky and J&V. So I'm gonna have to decide between havingfitz and J&V at some point although I'd rather it not be now.
Snarky pushing on Mary makes me more confident they're scum but doesn't help in finding a partner... if anything it points to havingfitz because of the timing.

Once again my course of action is dependent on Mary. I want to lynch Snarky, but if Mary would prefer to decide between J&V and havingfitz today I won't push it. (If we lynch right though I won't vote anyone other than Snarky tomorrow, paranoia will do more harm than good.)

[iiSq5024]

Why the unvote?
Scum would have had time to have quickhammer.

That said, I do think it's better to lynch Snarky today. That gives us more time to sort between you two (even with Realeo giving us an extra day 4 days isn't a lot and I'm fairly busy this week).

[iiSq5024]

I think it's meant to distract from the argument between you and havingfitz, and it also allows Snarky to avoid taking a stance between you two.

I'm pretty confident at this point that Snarky is scum with one of you. (And it's probably advantageous to operate under that assumption for the rest of the game, since in any other case we've almost certainly lost already.) I'd like to either lynch Snarky today or force Snarky to commit to a vote on you or havingfitz.

[iiSq5024]

Or both, actually.

Snarky, even if you think Mary is scum, she's not getting lynched today.

[iiSq5024]

I mean, I can take quotes out of context and misrep them too. Not that everything you've said is a misrep but you're being pretty dramatic and exaggerated.

At least they're explaining their thoughts...

If we lynch Snarky first (and he flips mafia), I fear both you and Mary would lynch me Day 6, so Fitz is the lynch I'd prefer today from a survival/tactical stand point.

Right now I'd peg the odds of you being scum as significantly less than the odds of havingfitz being scum. (70%-30%, maybe even higher.) You've been engaging and it looks like you're actually interested in solving the game, and havingfitz hasn't done much except take potshots at people. (And associatives with Snarky also put havingfitz worse than you.)
If you keep pushing havingfitz you force me and Mary to make the decision in ~2 days, which isn't enough. But I think that given the entirety of tomorrow we can come to the correct conclusion.

You seem to be as confident in Snarky scum as you are in havingfitz scum. It's time to put your money where your mouth is and vote so we can give Mary as much time as she needs to consider the hammer.

VOTE: SnarkySnowman

[iiSq5024]

By the way Mary: with regards to this being "too easy", my read isn't based primarily on Snarky's lack of content. It's the way they've pushed with what content they have, combined with interactions with others that make other teams (particularly J&V/havingfitz) unlikely.

[iiSq5024]

IIRC it's mainly process of elimination because she townreads me and havingfitz. I'm hoping to be able to engage her about the townread on havingfitz because I think it's a pretty surface-level read (and it makes sense that havingfitz is able to make posts that seem solid because he has so much experience).

[iiSq5024]

Why are you so hesitant to vote Snarky though?

Do you think that you will convince Mary that you're not teamed with Snarky by stalling on voting them as long as possible?

(And honestly, that is one reason I urged you to vote; to see if you're willing to actually commit to all the stuff you've been saying about Snarky.)

[iiSq5024]

In the world where you're town, I'm not afraid of havingfitz outplaying you tomorrow. You seem to be willing to put way more effort into rereading and making cases than he is.
I'm worried about Snarky and havingfitz both running you up as a counterwagon and forcing Mary to make a snap decision. That's why I put in the bit about giving Mary time to consider the hammer.

[iiSq5024]

I took off Jule's vote without his permission so I will ask him first before I place it.

Fair enough.

[iiSq5024]

What is the point then?

Also, you were asked to explain your read on havingfitz. Do you intend to do that?

[iiSq5024]

Are you talking about 909? Because if so J&V asked for evidence for the meta.

[iiSq5024]

Fitz Mary?

1 for 2

[iiSq5024]

Fitz iisq???

[iiSq5024]

Anti-town does = scummy
I disregarded my own NKA too :/

Think iiSq would have won D6, regardless if we'd lynched Fitz.

Well played ladies and gents.

- Vincent Vega

You mean when I put my own partner to L-1 on page 1?
It wasn't even anti-town

[iiSq5024]

GG! Snarky was right that inactivity was a problem (although Snarky was also part of the problem soooooooo )

As you can see in the mafia A topic, I am an alt and was planning to reveal after the game. If anyone wants to guess who I am before I do, you probably won't, though I've played a few games with some of you (Virtuoso, Creature, Snarky). (FYI: I considered trying a different playstyle but I literally can't. So I played pretty much exactly how I would on my main, except sans meta which made pushing lurkers that much easier. ) My scum game is normally crap, but the night 2 kills were super good for me (taking out the 3 players who were most strongly pushing me)... Virtuoso scum MVP

[iiSq5024]

So why were you pushing me then

I was genuinely scared of you, especially when I didn't know who your main was.

[iiSq5024]

And do you think Virtuoso is dangerous though? I was surprised when I found out he was ThinkBig. I've played with ThinkBig before; I was scum and pocketed him pretty well. So yes he's obvtown but he's not the worst person in the world to have as obvtown.

This is the game, if that helps determine my main.

And no, the thought that you might be Assemble's partner never even crossed my mind. I don't think crumbing scum is a good idea, because there's no reason to assume that only scum will pick up on it. Crumbing as town is one thing because if only one or two people see it the odds are decent that they're town, but not when you're scum.

[iiSq5024]

And yeah Virtuoso picking up on CommKnight and suiciding was really good (and definitely the right play since I would have probably shot you the next night); you can see in the PT that I also had no idea (nor did I care) who the PGO was.

[iiSq5024]

We were pretty close to crosskilling there. Fitz advocated for it and I initially wanted to but changed my mind when I realized that it was better for us to make a less obvious kill because we had less of a chance of crosskilling than B did. And I really wanted osuka dead

[iiSq5024]

It's bad for town if one mafia side dies early while the other stays intact.

I think this is incorrect.

The correct one is it is bad for town for PGO to die early.

I think both are true to an extent. It's extremely bad for town if BOTH occur as they did here.

I think the concept of the game is cool but the execution is awkward. The PGO is annoying to play around as scum (although if scum get lucky like Virtuoso did they can deal with it very well), and the nightskips create a positive feedback which punishes town more for lynching town and rewards it more for lynching scum... ideally the other way around is better as it reduces swing. While the setup might be balanced I think that it is in practice very hard on town unless scum crosskill, giving town an incentive to be dodgy about their reads to try to get scum to crosskill, which screws up scumhunting further. And Day 2 MYLO isn't great.

Although there are a lot of things that can go wrong between the two scumteams, at the end of the day it's 9:4 which is a lot of power for scum. It might be a better idea to remove the nightskip and increase the number of players, like 2:2:13 maybe? That would decrease the potential for an early catastrophe for one team or the other.

In response to 1021: as long as scum have decent reads they should be fairly able to identify mislynchable townies, and if scum don't get killed at night it only takes a few mislynches to give scum a majority if they kill well (and I don't think it's too hard to make kills that are likely to land on town and not be doubled by the other team). Scum NK'ing town doesn't help town because it increases the influence scum have on the game overall. (fun fact: I was on every mislynch, first on three of them and second on the other )

And yeah, Keyser was great. I want to be on the same team as him sometime