♥ ♠ Open 711: Stack The Deck - Game Over ♣ ♦

[Montosh]

VOTE: Almost50

What are you then? 49? 47? 49.9? We need some transparency here.

[Montosh]

VOTE: Almost50

What are you then? 49? 47? 49.9? We need some transparency here.

Since you insist, I'm exactly 20 weeks (140 days) away from officially being 50.

Will you make a new account?

What a bad idea, making an account with an expiration date. That applies to you too, since yours expired the moment you ever played scum.

[Montosh]

In all your 12741 posts? Impressive.

[Montosh]

Srceen has been poking a lot which feels like he's trying to inspire discussion
I haven't settled on whether it's an explicit townread yet or if I'm just enjoying it

A50 is talking lots but not saying much, he stuck out more to me than others from a skimread. Who would you say has contributed less so far (excluding single posters and those who haven't rocked up yet)?

On Almost50, what high levels on content are you expecting on page 3 right out of RVS? If he was the only one doing this I'd get it but I only see a few people saying much. A50 seems to in the majority. What sets him apart?

[Montosh]

Tbh the main reason I am thinking this of Yankee is the Salem joke.

Explain this a little more for me.

Town of Salem is generally a try to fly under the radar if you are a pr type of game.

Maybe I'm missing something, but all I saw was him referencing the well-known witch hunt, and sort of jokingly saying not to do that. Not sure he was referencing the game lol. I get that it strikes as maybe a "i'm gonna go real out there brazenly so they'll think I must be town", but it was like 2 posts around RVS-ish stage and it seems a bit too brazen right off the bat to me.

[Montosh]

So why are you making that statement? Or, if it's true, why would you do that?

[Montosh]

So why are you making that statement? Or, if it's true, why would you do that?

I’m making that statement so everyone knows and understands that it will happen. It’s not a bluff. If you are not comfortable with them being lynched don’t put them at L-1 because if you do you can consider yourself as the hammer.
I’m giving everyone information to adjust their play accordingly.

You can put Espeonage on the same list as reaper as well.

But why? This seems inherently anti-town. One, you're essentially removing the possibility of putting two people now at L-1, which can be useful for applying pressure, without seeing them immediately quickhammered and lynched. If you're gonna vote someone just vote them. But don't try to remove culpability from yourself by saying something along the lines of "well I did warn them I'd hammer for absolutely no reason so there". This actually reduces our ability to gain info.

VOTE: Srceenplay

[Montosh]

On the Almost50 wagon, I feel like it being a traitor waving to the mafia might be a bit of a stretch. He'd been sort of jovial and joking around for most of the game up to that point. But what's with the BG claim/crumb? (which i assume refers to leaving "crumbs" in a past post to point to later). Like, you're not an info role, why do that?

[Montosh]

Going through some posts

@mutant: Crumbs (by definition) are NOT supposed to be easily noticed. That would be stupid. SOFT-CLAIMING though is supposed to be easy to notice, and I think that's what's confusing you, perhaps?


@mutant/Montosh: Why isn't it a valid move to crumb ANYTHING (even if I had rolled a VT)? A crumb is a crumb. It Is supposed to be a reference for later, but

I don't get why you think only an investigative role should ever crumb

! Crumbs are done to avoid Counterclaims towards the end of the game (if I had the chance to live that long).

And anyway, that's in the past now. I've fully and explicitly claimed already. Act upon the info you have now, not upon what could've been.

For me, it's less that you crumbed a non-investigative role, but that you pointed it out day one without any real reason from what I can see. Again, I thought the initial assessment of your post as being a traitor trying to show the mafia who you are to be a weak assessment, but your reaction to it made no sense to me. It's so brazen that I wouldn't expect scum to do it really, but idk if it's a matter of you knowing that and trying to psych town out. In any case I was mostly looking for an explanation, it's been a while since I played anyways.

Had there been no crumb and you role claimed with a wagon on you then I would have believed you. But in its current state, your claim just screams desperate scum.

So, I'm "desperate" because "there's no wagon me"?? Explain how the claim works from a "desperate scum" when you ALSO acknowledge there has not been a wagon on me.

All true, so why'd you claim without so much as a real wagon?

Like, seriously now.. ANY of those who jumped on me claiming I was Traitor flipping Red should confirm they recruited their Traitor already and thus are not afraid to push on a Townie under the guise of them aiming for the Traitor. It's as simple as this.

That one took me a moment to get, but yeah that seems logical.

The post you referred to as being a Traitor claim was actually a BodyGuard strong crumb. Bad Guy, Bob Geldof, Brian Gleeson, Brad Garrett. Brad Garrett isn't even Irish to the best of my knowledge.

I almost believe this until:

VOTE: Almost50 - that BG-claim was always there as a backup-strat.
He is the traitor and tried to crumb it - trusting my gut here.

I feel like this is probably much more likely.

This almost reads like you were fine with A50's claim *until* Una objected to it, at which point you decided to hop onto that push as well.

Like what does 'until' mean? You wouldn't have had a problem with it if Una didn't say he thought he was a traitor?

Just seems to me like he's saying Una pointed out something he otherwised wouldn't have noticed. Feel as if you're reading too much into it.

That’s how you do the convincing thing.

UNVOTE:

Time to sleep and then go to work for a full day. I’ll be back in 18-20 hours.

You're unvoting because it's a common play for him? (I'm assuming anyway, I'm not reading through the games he linked). Do you think it makes it less alignment indicative? I agree that it does.

[Montosh]

One thing which I personally find interesting is Espeonage who originally brought up the whole traitor thing. He seems to have flown under the radar a bit. I can see why he thinks it could be a traitor claim, but I think it's more just in the whole BG theme.

I really don't et why a scum would basically claim BG on day 2 of day 1 especially when he could get a CC thus instakilling him.

Yeah I agree with this pretty much. It's too brazen. I know someone said that BG wasn't worth a CC but still, it's brazen for scum to do it Day 1.

[Montosh]

@Almost50 Ok yeah I agree with you, that town loses nothing. And yeah I suppose town does gain in the sense that PRs have fewer targets to check. I don't think I'd have done that but I can reasonably see why you would.

[Montosh]

Is the IC claim serious?

lol

[Montosh]

@Almost50 Ok yeah I agree with you, that town loses nothing. And yeah I suppose town does gain in the sense that PRs have fewer targets to check. I don't think I'd have done that but I can reasonably see why you would.

So you mean the goon cop if we have one shouldn't check the claimed BG and IC?


Also, isn't an IC meant to be publically confirmed town by the mod?

That IC claim was meant to be a joke lol. Yes you're right, an IC would have been confirmed Day 1, meaning we don't have one.

[Montosh]

@Almost50 Ok yeah I agree with you, that town loses nothing. And yeah I suppose town does gain in the sense that PRs have fewer targets to check. I don't think I'd have done that but I can reasonably see why you would.

So you mean the goon cop if we have one shouldn't check the claimed BG and IC?


Also, isn't an IC meant to be publically confirmed town by the mod?

Probably not the claimed BG (A50) no.

VOTE: Elmo

Look scum trying to make a decent vote

This is basically a scum claim to me.
You are saying me voting you is a decent vote.
One of them subconscious tells.

Are you usually this much of a troll and this nitpicky?

[Montosh]

Subject: Srceen + whatever else I feel like

48 This just seems like RVS material at the time; saying he's found three scum.

60 Here's some initial discussion on Srceen. Skitter says he dislikes him, doesn't really explain here though

61 theworst says he likes srceen because he's been poking and providing content, which was my initial feeling. There's also discussion on A50 from the start, since he's been singled out to provide more content, which I find odd considering that we had just left RVS and many people had posted similar content levels.

66 Srceen names Especially and reaper as his two scumreads on

page 3

right out of RVS because they "They both don’t want to be seen contributing". My immediate reaction to this looking back is a "hey look at me! I'm poking so much and putting myself out there! No way scum would do that" ploy, even if your "contributions" don't really makes sense. But it's early days

81 Here's the weird srceen post where he says he'll insta-hammer reaper should he get to L-1. I don't like this, didn't like it then as now. It's trying to put yourself outside the process and remove the ability to put certain people at L-1 to apply pressure. It makes D1 less useful for town, and is therefore anti-town.

85 Una here saying that this is Srceen's meta and not alignment indicative.

89 This is such a bad post from srceen. "If you are not comfortable with them being lynched don’t put them at L-1 because if you do you can consider yourself as the hammer." He's just trying to remove culpability should Yankee be lynched, and then puts Esp on the same list. He makes this post under the guise of providing town with more info to adjust their play, but he's just trying to give himself townie points. But as I said above, I think this actually reduces the amount of info we can gain.

94 Here he denies the perfectly reasonable accusation that he's trying to make hammer vote NAI.

110 A50's supposed traitor claim. Looking at it again, it's a bit for this type of post sure, but it seems to me a stretch to try and see this as a traitor claim. Anyway A50 had mostly been posting this kind of content up to now.

139 A50's BG claim. I still do not get why he did it when there was barely a wagon. If town, then I don't see much point to it, though since the BG's job is to die I guess it's not damaging. If scum it doesn't make any sense though, since I don't see a BG claim making it past a few days. Despite not liking it, it gives me a bit of a townread on him and I also agree, as others have said, that if true it'll likely resolve itself.

145 Skitter here trying to get more out of srceen and esp. She also tries to get Esp to differentiate between whether they're voting srceen as a policy lynch or as a scumread. At that point in the game, not sure why it couldn't be a bit of both. Also makes the A50 is self-resolving argument, which seems fine to me atm.

147 Wall of text from mutant. Mostly catch-up. Also where he says he nearly believed A50's BG crumb until Una convinced him otherwise. Some people used that as an indication of scuminess, for some reason. Seems perfectly reasonable. Someone point something out which he didn't notice, and thought it seemed convincing.

148 A50 votes mutant. I really don't know how I feel about this vote. It has the same certainty as srceen's posts, but it feels like there's more content there. He's analyzing what roles there possible are based on what he thinks the scum would do and giving suggestions to PRs.

Ok, I'll come back to this later

[Montosh]

Not forgetting I have a game would be a good idea.

On Screenplay. I don't think he included Math for any reason other than just trolling, which just about sums up his play today. He starts off declaring to have found all the scum on the first few pages, then declares an intent to instahammer those of them who reach L-1 just to screw with us. His play seems to be deliberately aimed at confusing town while declaring that he has "contributed" by creating reactions. Yeah, he got reactions, but he got reactions that no one can follow because they're so muddled up in his attempts to create confusion. It seems to me he's going for a "too scummy to be scum" thing. I don't like his play, it's anti-town and he's got a better of flipping scum than anyone else.

[Montosh]

NM, at some point you cross a line where you're sitting on a useless vote. It kinda reeks of trying to keep out of sight deliberately.

[Montosh]

More on Screen + whatever else I notice

203 Now screen is voting Elmo.... for some reason. Doesn't explain it. But he's really "contributing" guys.

213 Srceen here telling us about subconscious tells because Elmo pointed out screen making a vote that he interpreted as an attempt by scum to look like they are making an alright vote.

216 skitter here voting for Una over the whole A50 traitor + BG crumb thing, because she didn't like Una's initial push. But Esp was the first one to vote A50 after the 'traitor claim' post. Una was the first to vote after the BG claim. But many people, including myself, found the BG claim weird at the time, despite not taking the initial read as a traitor claim seriously. Then she mentions she didn't like Una's follow up, saying that she didn't like Una's claim that they were reaction testing. But Una never actually said that, only that getting conversation out of it was a good by-product even if not the intended effect.

224 the worst following with a vote on Una as well. I don't think being persuaded about that is outside the realm of possibility (I didn't notice any problems with the arguments on my first run-through after all), but I still don't like this whole push and I'm putting here for future reference.

229 This is a more reasonable justification for a Una vote. I don't remember how long after Una responds does he stay on that wagon though.

237 Una defending their vote as not OMGUS. mutant chews him out a little bit for this post but it was essentially the same reasoning for the initial push on Una (that they seemed to be opportunistically following a wagon.

245 More non-content from screen: "stirring emotions and lynching scum".

p-edit: This is me going through posts with a focus on you screen. I did more a few pages back. It's probably my fault for you not noticing I've not been on top of this game the past few days.

[Montosh]

Not forgetting I have a game would be a good idea.

On Screenplay. I don't think he included Math for any reason other than just trolling, which just about sums up his play today. He starts off declaring to have found all the scum on the first few pages, then declares an intent to instahammer those of them who reach L-1 just to screw with us. His play seems to be deliberately aimed at confusing town while declaring that he has "contributed" by creating reactions. Yeah, he got reactions, but he got reactions that no one can follow because they're so muddled up in his attempts to create confusion. It seems to me he's going for a "too scummy to be scum" thing. I don't like his play, it's anti-town and he's got a better of flipping scum than anyone else.

I explained math. It’s not a mystery for you to solve.

My play was to confuse town? What is confusing? Elaborate. Ask questions to make it unconfusing. Seriously please do.

After rvs what all has been to scumy to be scum? What bothered you?

Read above (and more to come as I go through). In terms of Math, I don't really buy that you got confused about him because of another game, but let's say it's true, why do it the second time? It comes across as deliberate trolling.

[Montosh]

305 NM meta reading screen a bit, that it's not his style to be so antagonistic as scum. Which is about the most reading he's done up to this post.

310 skitter and A50 both reading lego's vote switch as trying to distance from screeeen. I definitely think a scumflip from screen makes lego look bad.

245 More non-content from screen: "stirring emotions and lynching scum".

Really?

Is the IC claim serious?

lol

Oh look non content from montosh.

Not exactly comparable, given that I've not been trying to pass myself off as having made the greatest contributions to stirring up good conversations. My lol response to someone seriously considering an obvious joke post is not quite the same.

[Montosh]

213 Srceen here telling us about subconscious tells because Elmo pointed out screen making a vote that he interpreted as an attempt by scum to look like they are making an alright vote.

A legit read

Reading into little bits of language and passing that off as a subconscious tell is a legit read? Ok. Seems more nitpicky and trolling to me.

[Montosh]

213 Srceen here telling us about subconscious tells because Elmo pointed out screen making a vote that he interpreted as an attempt by scum to look like they are making an alright vote.

A legit read

Reading into little bits of language and passing that off as a subconscious tell is a legit read? Ok. Seems more nitpicky and trolling to me.

It’s not. You can find it in any game I play.

It's that actually your meta, then I'd vote you in any game I play. Can anyone who has played with screen tell me if this is actually his meta though?

Second time was lols

Given that actual pressure was levelled against you for that "lols" post, it seems like trolling at that point and I don't see why town would do it. I can see scum trying to muddle the waters and make it hard to read.

[Montosh]

Not exactly comparable, given that I've not been trying to pass myself off as having made the greatest contributions to stirring up good conversations. My lol response to someone seriously considering an obvious joke post is not quite the same.

I have not said anything about being the greatest. That’s taking things out of context.
The argument was made that I have done nothing. I stated it is wrong.

Eh I think it's close enough. You've hinted at basically having figured out the game throughout and saying you've stirred good conversation, which I hold to be false.

[Montosh]

Given that actual pressure was levelled against you for that "lols" post, it seems like trolling at that point and I don't see why town would do it. I can see scum trying to muddle the waters and make it hard to read.

Reading into little bits of language and passing that off as a subconscious tell is a legit read?

See what I did there

Again, there is a difference between little quirks of language and doubling down on something you know people are sus about to troll.

Given that actual pressure was levelled against you for that "lols" post, it seems like trolling at that point and I don't see why town would do it. I can see scum trying to muddle the waters and make it hard to read.

It’s me not taking serious someone calling it a scum slip. I don’t see it. If I seen someone else do it I would probably lol them.

I don't take that seriously either as stated above. But doubling down, given that the trolling and confusion-generation seems to be your thing today does not win you town brownie points. On it's own I'd lol but with the whole thing you have going on I don't see town doing that.

[Montosh]

Not exactly comparable, given that I've not been trying to pass myself off as having made the greatest contributions to stirring up good conversations. My lol response to someone seriously considering an obvious joke post is not quite the same.

I have not said anything about being the greatest. That’s taking things out of context.
The argument was made that I have done nothing. I stated it is wrong.

Eh I think it's close enough. You've hinted at basically having figured out the game throughout and saying you've stirred good conversation,

which I hold to be false.

How can it be false if you are saying my lynch will be informational?

What? i'm talking about how you've hinted about having figured out the whole game. Of course your lynch would be informational. Info is gained after alignment reveal because of how people reacted in regards to the wagon.

In terms of confusion:

Not forgetting I have a game would be a good idea.

On Screenplay. I don't think he included Math for any reason other than just trolling, which just about sums up his play today. He starts off declaring to have found all the scum on the first few pages, then declares an intent to instahammer those of them who reach L-1 just to screw with us. His play seems to be deliberately aimed at confusing town while declaring that he has "contributed" by creating reactions. Yeah, he got reactions, but he got reactions that no one can follow because they're so muddled up in his attempts to create confusion. It seems to me he's going for a "too scummy to be scum" thing. I don't like his play, it's anti-town and he's got a better of flipping scum than anyone else.

And my other big post. You cling on to seemingly random things and muddy the waters. Tell me that this is not your intention.

[Montosh]

Small things as in the legit read I had that you questioned? That’s what I look for. Scum mispeaking.

As I stated, I thought it wasn't a legit read, that it was based on nitpicking language.

What? i'm talking about how you've hinted about having figured out the whole game. Of course your lynch would be informational. Info is gained after alignment reveal because of how people reacted in regards to the wagon.

It’s says @ stirred good conversation “. You said that’s false. If you are saying my actions and then lynch brings information you can’t call it false.

Not exactly comparable, given that I've not been trying to pass myself off as having made the greatest contributions to stirring up good conversations. My lol response to someone seriously considering an obvious joke post is not quite the same.

I have not said anything about being the greatest. That’s taking things out of context.
The argument was made that I have done nothing. I stated it is wrong.

Eh I think it's close enough. You've hinted at basically having figured out the game throughout and saying you've stirred good conversation,

which I hold to be false.

How can it be false if you are saying my lynch will be informational?

What? i'm talking about how you've hinted about having figured out the whole game.

Of course your lynch would be informational. Info is gained after alignment reveal because of how people reacted in regards to the wagon.

[Montosh]

Yeah, he got reactions, but he got reactions that no one can follow because they're so muddled up in his attempts to create confusion.

It seems to me he's going for a "too scummy to be scum" thing. I don't like his play, it's anti-town and he's got a better of flipping scum than anyone else.

I disagree with the bolded in that I don't think that the reactions are muddled or difficult to follow.

I don't much like the posts you made last night: they feel like you're pushing a PL more than they feel like you're pushing a scumread, and a lot of your posts are IIOA and seem largely bereft of scumhunting (specifically posts like 570 or post 576). I say the latter because you kinda just summarize people's opinions without much commentary.

On the latter post, yeah that was me starting a new one but then getting sidetracked by screen, so fair enough there. On the former though, the only way I know to scumhunt is to look at people's play and reactions to certain situations and determine if those reactions fit scum play more than town play, which was what I was doing in 570 and the previous post of that nature I made.

Also, what's IIOA?

[Montosh]

I might go through more posts today, but I don't know that there's gonna be much new content today. I'm not averse to ending the day soon. But we do have a few more days left.

[Montosh]

everyone thinks everything they say and think is right

So, it's not only me you're mad on?

I wasn't referring to everyone here thinking they are right. You are the only one doing that. I'm just saying that a game where everyone was like you would be unbearable. But in general, I will be mad on anyone who tries to talk like they know everything. Because it means they either actually have that knowledge due to being scum or they are just an incredibly closed minded person.

Screen....... is in the game.

I don't see how A50 is being arrogant. All I see him doing is giving a rundown of what roles scum seem likely to pick, and yeah being kinda snippy with you.

@A50, now maybe i'm missing someone but I don't see what about mutant's post makes it a scumclaim. All he's doing is pointing out that if you're the BG it gives claimed RB Jay a chance to use his power since you can protect him. Why are you jumping on him for that?

[Montosh]

^^ wasn't a town lean then. He was null when I said i'd be okay with his lynch.

And here's what I was intending to happen from my intent:

Either:
Screen L-1 --> No role claim, requests intent --> I post intent --> Screen refuses to claim --> I hammer.
OR (and preferably):
Screen L-1 --> No role claim, requests intent --> I post intent --> Screen role claims --> People unvote --> We don't have to lynch someone who would probably lynch town.

My intent was an intent to hammer if there was no role claim. It was not an intent to hammer based on reads. A role claim of literally anything put an end to my intent.

Had I been scum, a VT role claim would have allowed me to hammer since it's reasonable to hammer someone who has claimed a role of low importance.

I was going to finish this post by saying "@Elmo, tell them that I don't intend to come across as PR hunting" but then I realised Elmo has replaced out and cannot vouch for that. My meta, however, can. Just look at how I was wagoned up D1 (but not lynched) because I said something that looked like PR fishing in the recently ended game I was in that Elmo modded. I had no intention of PR hunting there and I can assure you I have no need to know who the PRs are here unless they feel they have something to share by claiming.

Sure, but you had declared an intent to hammer with a timeframe, and the wagon was kinda fizzling a bit by that point as people were focusing on Jay/Creature. Given that interest it would have been suspicious to hammer at that point.

[Montosh]

Depends which role we're talking. BG probably ought to CC. Their point is to die anyway so I see the possibility of them being shot a pretty good exchange for lynching scum. If RB, then yeah that's a bit more tough. I'd say maybe push the lynch hard on the fakeclaimer, since scum might expect PRs to try and lay low. Obviously you gotta find the right moment though, where it seems like your efforts make a difference.

Maybe you can find a way to subtly let your townreads know, but that's a dangerous game and I don't quite know how you'd go about it.

p-edit: As above, it does depend on how many roles we have yeah. On the balance of probabilities fake claiming these roles is risky for scum, so unless we've got some new info I'm not convinced on Jay Day 1.

[Montosh]

That was directed @Sky btw

[Montosh]

The mutant wagon seems contrived. What, he's role fishing because he got a claim from Screen? Well yeah, he declared an intent to hammer and Screen made a claim. Not really PR hunting.

[Montosh]

I’ve not been too engaged with this game so am yet to push anyone. I’m now in a position where I could be more engaged but refuse to do so whilst there is a high chance I am to be lynched. My reads list was by no means an attempt to push anyone and simply serves as a way to clearly express my opinions on everyone should you need such information after my death.

Even if you think your lynch is inevitable (which I don't buy btw), you should still be voting. It at least gives town more info even if you are lynched. If you're not lynched and post good reasoning, maybe you can get a wagon on one of your scumreads. Like, this attitude is bad for town, so don't do it.

But I don't like this wagon, the initial reasoning for it seems really contrived and his whole demeanour screams demoralized town to me. The only reasoning for him being scum I can at least buy is that he's a traitor who feels isolated from scum and that's the source of this attitude. But that reduces the probability to 1/13 (if we even have a traitor), which on the balance of probabilities seems weak given that I see no strong scumtells from him.

[Montosh]

I should get into sheeping it sounds fun

[Montosh]

now number one!!!

Mutant and Screen are the only ones close to wagons and neither of them are worth lynching. We've still got a few days to find a suitable parallel wagon. (someone else do my work for me please, I am literally the worst)

unvote, vote: lego

Worst has good restraint. So consider this my consolidating off a vanity wagon.

this too is a vanity wagon

I should get into sheeping it sounds fun

monty If you had to shoot one player RIGHT NOW who would it be and why?

Screen. The way he's gone quiet and tried to avoid saying anything since the wagon on him has started to die down along with my issues with him I expressed previously make me think scum even more than before.

If not Screen, I'd say a toss up between NM and skitter. NM for similar reasons to others, since I think his kind of behaviour has a better chance of flipping scum than random chance. Skitter because I feel like she has a tendency to just sorta follow the consensus as it develops. Maybe she's just good at getting her point across and convincing people, but I feel like she's done a good job in flying under the radar. Still I'd want another day of posting from her for more info I think. So yeah probably in that order I guess.

p-edit: Holy shit like 4 pages since I opened the reply screen alright.

[Montosh]

Also i seriously need a votecount now.

[Montosh]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Espeonage

He's been wishy washy enough for it to be possible that he's trying to fly under the radar. He's been a null read for me most of the game as a result of that but mutant is a town read and with a day till deadline I'd take this over a mutant lynch.

That is L-2 I believe.

[Montosh]

There might be a traitor Jay. We don't actually know that they didn't recruit. Given the number of claims already (one of which is now confirmed), I feel like scum probably picked some PRs.

@Sky Seems to me that NSG had a townread on mutant for a while. They didn't "suddenly" get off the mutant wagon.

[Montosh]

The mafia doesn't necessarily need to have picked bulletproof I don't think, since the traitor has a one-shot BP.

@Mod does the traitor retain the BP ability if recruited?

[Montosh]

So that reduces the chances. If Esp is telling the truth, either scum had to pick bulletproof or theworst is a traitor.

[Montosh]

Anyone know which order NAs resolve in this setup?

Presumably

Protect
Vig
Scum NK

Aren't kills resolved simultaneously?

[Montosh]

I see no reason for Esp!scum to fakeclaim vig at this stage. Like, what would be the plan? At best the worst is lynched and then he gets lynched the next day.

[Montosh]

Because we have a confirmed BG. If scum picked zero abilities than town have two PRs only, one of which is dead.

[Montosh]

So the sheeper becomes the sheeped.

[Montosh]

I think my flip is a necessity to advance this game but I'm a far better N2 NK than D2 lynch. Reread A50's posts regarding his night action. He expressly stated a resistance to naming his townreads because it might misdirect night actions or alert scum to where to shoot. This makes a lot more sense than you're giving it credit for. ALSO it makes a lot of sense for scum to target A50 N1 regardless of PR. He was very easily townread and could have caused NK issues in future phases. I think it's more likely scum targeted A50 but either of those scenarios are very plausible.

Anyway while you're tunnelling I'm gonna look for real scum :3

For emphasis VOTE: Montosh

What you're saying doesn't make sense. Even if scum target A50 N1, then it doesn't explain why you survived Esp's shot. Unless you think he's lying, which you said you don't.

[Montosh]

Are Montosh and SP really transparent scum atm or is it just me?
I will not scumread everyone on my wagon but these guys are so opportunistic and keen to push a lazy lynch without reading the thread... o_0

First off, it's not exactly a lazy lynch. There's a 1v1 that does need to be resolved. We've got a claimed vig saying he shot you and you didn't die. Conclusions if Esp is telling the truth: Either A50 protected you and scum no killed or also targeted you, or you've got BP, which only scum has. The former seems unlikely, and since there's little benefit to scum!Esp fakeclaiming vig Day 2 to get you lynched, then this is something that probably needs to be resolved.

Do you really not get this?

[Montosh]

Are Montosh and SP really transparent scum atm or is it just me?
I will not scumread everyone on my wagon but these guys are so opportunistic and keen to push a lazy lynch without reading the thread... o_0

First off, it's not exactly a lazy lynch. There's a 1v1 that does need to be resolved. We've got a claimed vig saying he shot you and you didn't die. Conclusions if Esp is telling the truth: Either A50 protected you and scum no killed or also targeted you, or you've got BP, which only scum has. The former seems unlikely, and since there's little benefit to scum!Esp fakeclaiming vig Day 2 to get you lynched, then this is something that probably needs to be resolved.

Do you really not get this?

Apparently you haven't read anything else this day phase so I'm glad you understood that bit at least!

My wagon is a very easy lynch. Unfortunately I know for a FACT that I was either protected by A50 or Esp is lying. But neither of those possibilities are even slightly remote (I think the former is very slightly more likely but that's mostly because I liked Esp's tone around his claim).

You are really lazily throwing shade at me and egging the wagon on while others are doing the hard work. You haven't even voted yet. Like your attitude around my wagon just opens the door for you to come back and lynch Esp tomorrow without really being involved in the wagons.

If I'm lynched today and flip green hopefully you'll be revisited soon so if you're town please try and give us some kind of way to notice

What reason would we have to lynch Esp either way? If he fakeclaimed vig and there was no vig, then it'd be immediately apparent by the fact that no vig kills were happening. If he fakeclaimed with a real vig, then that real vig can CC and out a scum. There's no reason for scum!Esp to take those odds just to lynch you. As far as I'm concerned Esp is as close to conftown as we have right now. So yes, I consider the possibility of him lying very remote. As far as A50 protecting you, it's not just that. We have to believe that A50 protected you AND scum also targeted you. So yeah, on the balance of probabilities, you're a good wagon.

And the reason I've not voted you is because I want a VC to make sure i'm not quick hammering first day of Day 2.

[Montosh]

Where'd he claim? I didn't see it sorry.

[Montosh]

No lynching just gives scum another chance to hit a PR. Or they can just hit the most townie person and then we're in Lylo no better off.

Yeah maybe it gives a PR the chance to get a good result, but more likely it doesn't and then we have one less town vote going into Lylo, and one less PR if we make it past Lylo.

[Montosh]

You have no relevant results, 8p MyLo with you confirmed vs 7p LyLo without you is inconsequentially different, I'd sooner take the bet on an extra night of results from a potential goon cop and/or tracker, plus an extra night of you potentially stopping the NK

It's not inconsequentially different. If we're in 7 person Lylo then scum only need one townie on board to push a lynch through. And chances are scum kill off the most conftown person, so we're in no better shape.

I think A50 was purposefully playing scummy day 1 so that he wouldn't eat the nk, but either he got shot anyways, scum hit their unrecruited traitor, or they also shot TW.

Any of those would explain the n1 death imo.

Of course, by protecting the vig kill he kinda made things rather confusing, but yeah.

I don't really see the benefit of a no lynch tbh.

I think scum is in {Montosh , nsg, sky, nm}, in that order, with the caveat that if nm is scum, sky probably is too.

Outside shot of screen, but I'm not really feeling it.

I don't think montosh is town like at all tbh.

Also while he explicitly believed Esp, he hesitated to actually vote TW because he didn't want to end the day early

. Like if he believed Esp there wasn't really a reason to hesitate; it was a probable guilty that needed to be resolved.

But he didn't actually end up on the wagon, and I think that's scum-indicative. I think scum hesitate to join the wagon of a probable/fake guilty because they know the participants in the 1v1 are town (or at least not groupscum), and don't want to commit (ie lay down a vote) on either side.

Nice try. I didn't want to quickhammer 24 hours into Day 2, and we never got a votecount so i was waiting on that and on some others to enter the thread. As it is we basically got nothing from Screen and lego yesterday.

I'm just running past to say

Not Mafia is probably scum for quickhammering before Jay could claim his results

have not read the thread and will be back in an hour

This also bugs me. Why'd you quickhammer NM? And why'd we put tw to L-1 with "Mr. quickhammer" in our game.

[Montosh]

My list:

Screen
skitter
NM

[Montosh]

As of now, I am counterclaiming cop. I think there is not much point waiting for him to heavily deny softclaiming cop, but if he does, he is almost certainly scum, given his heavy crumbs. I can point out an early crumb if necessary. I might have been too obvious, as I think someone (mutant) picked up on it.

On night 1 I investigated Espeonage, and found him not to be a goon, as we now know. On the following days I was V/LA and rather surprised by the speed, as I expected to get a result N3 as well, but you guys messed that up.


Note that sky IIRC was town reading NM, which if he flips scum will mean NM is more likely to be scum. Also, he seemed to crumb TW being scum as well as NSG in 1208. Thus, those two are likely town.

I think we found scum.

So your one result is the guy we know flipped town and then you got nothing the rest of the nights? And you made a CC to a softclaim? Why? Looks like trying to pre-empt sky so you look more town.

You say you've got crumbs you can point out? By all means show what you've got.

[Montosh]

Sorry, it makes perfect sense for scum!lego to pre-empt a sky cop claim in a MyLo situation. Not to mention you've been on the sky slot basically all game. What, did you see a cop crumb from them early on and try your hand at lynching them?

[Montosh]

Not Mafia here continuing his streak of contributing absolutely nothing.

[Montosh]

Uh huh. That first quote from lego is maybe a crumb, maybe not, not really definitive. So all that leaves is the second, which is sketchy. I mean, all he had to do was get two sentences to start with G and then C after the word I'm. Wouldn't be hard to crumb like that for a potential fakeclaim, or even just get lucky and have the right letter line up. You only needed three.

[Montosh]

Uh huh. That first quote from lego is maybe a crumb, maybe not, not really definitive. So all that leaves is the second, which is sketchy. I mean, all he had to do was get two sentences to start with G and then C after the word I'm. Wouldn't be hard to crumb like that for a potential fakeclaim, or even just get lucky and have the right letter line up. You only needed three.

what reason do you have to believe sky over lego?

I don't believe Sky over lego. I think the way in which Sky softclaimed before going V/LA was... weird to say the least. But it doesn't necessarily strike me as scummy.

But Lego's claim seems like an opportunistic attempt to take advantage of Sky being kinda weird. It strikes me as more suspicious.

[Montosh]

OK,

the way Lego claimed was like ridiculously, blatantly obvtown. Scum just don't claim like that

; they don't leave the credibility of the claim to running out of free wifi at the miami airport lol.

They do if they think it'll look obvtown. That's the whole point. If scum think people will interpret it the same way as you then they will claim like that.

Jay, you wanna share your results?

Honestly, I just didn't put it together until NM posted the following, at which point I realized that I had been an idiot for missing the transparently obvious. I think that scum fake-claiming in this setup seems like such ridiculously awful idea (the chance of getting cc'd is soooo high, as we see here) to me that I just didn't seriously consider the possibility, and so I didn't really think about it from that POV. And now we have at least one scum fake-claiming, possibly two.

lynching today transparently benefited scum Jay.

Sky isn't artful enough to execute a plan like this. skitter, I admittedly don't know him well.

(she)

lololol, this is something I could/would do on my homesite, but wouldn't really try to pull on this site tbh. And if I was directing lego to fake-claim ... it would be rather more meticulously planned and the credibility wouldn't depend on the miami airport's lack of free wifi.

Or maybe not. Meticulously planned can be good, but if it seems too polished and planned people can get suspicious. If it seems more natural and spur of the moment then it can reduce suspicion, which scum would want to do. Like yeah, there's a lot of WIFOM here but I don't see Lego's manner of claiming as being all that town AI.

Sorry, it makes perfect sense for scum!lego to pre-empt a sky cop claim in a MyLo situation. Not to mention you've been on the sky slot basically all game. What, did you see a cop crumb from them early on and try your hand at lynching them?

OK, and why are you assuming that it isn't scum!sky trying to pre-empt a PR claim in MYLO in an attempt to discredit them?

Yeah I'm not going to pick apart the rest of montosh's posts; they're really bad.

Is it bad that I kinda want to lynch montosh to force scum to shoot within the PRs or no-kill or risk making them (ie jay) look even worse?

I never assumed anything about Sky. We need to wait for em to come back and give some explanation for their weird softclaim post. Thing is, I can see a reason why Sky might do that as town:

They're the GC, and they're trying to get scum to make a CC and out themselves since they'd be worried sky has a guilty on them (and maybe they really do, but are trying to get associations going). Risky but I could see it happening, we didn't have very good info going into the day.

There's reasons I can see for town sky to do this, even if I wouldn't really go that route myself. But I don't see why town Lego would CC a softclaim without a guilty result, or any results on living players for that matter. But I can see panicking scum doing it.

I don't think lego is town, given that.

[Montosh]

Sky's crumbs are awful and these two are making no effort to analyse Sky's crumbs, they aren't actually trying to gamesolve, they're pushing an agenda

The crumbs they posted are pretty bad yeah. That's something I definitely need to hear from Sky on.

And for real, what agenda exactly am I trying to push? That the weird and possibly scum AI claims are... well weird and possibly scum AI?

[Montosh]

NM has the gall to call people scum when all he's done all game is stay on Sky's slot because Yankee did the same thing he always does.

@Sky I'm not convinced on town lego but I'm pretty much with you on skitter and NM at this point. Personally I think the third is between Screen and lego.

[Montosh]

Do you like, autocorrect 'else' to 'elsa'?

[Montosh]

Also... how does Jay = Elsa?

[Montosh]

VOTE: Sky

[Montosh]

Whoops

[Montosh]

Nice try Sky, I know you're scum.

[Montosh]

It's obviously skitter, screen and sky

[Montosh]

The Triple S

[Montosh]

Yeah skitter I'm scum.

[Montosh]

I was kinda worried that I had pushed to hard and might get skitter to try and start a wagon on me.

[Montosh]

*too hard

[Montosh]

Yeah man Creature left you in a bit of a tough spot, the RB claim really worked out though

[Montosh]

I know you were, hence why I tried to associate myself to sky.

[Montosh]

I won't ruin it for the third scum, they might wanna keep trolling.

[Montosh]

Idk. Seriously though we nearly got screwed there. If Sky hadn't fakeclaimed I'm pretty sure I'd have been lynched.

[Montosh]

"Idk. Seriously though we nearly got screwed there. If Sky hadn't fakeclaimed I'm pretty sure I'd have been lynched."

How so? I didn't see any real lynch options this day phase.

I think skitter had enough town cred to get my lynch going. I wanted to shoot her all game but then we kept finding PRs.

[Montosh]

I thought he might be a PR

[Montosh]

I was like: OK, esp shot him, and A50 protected him. We're still missing a nk.

And one of montosh's posts very carefully listed all the possibilities of how a nk might go missing but he glossed over the fact that they could have shot the worst, which I noticed at some point. Or at least, I noticed that he glossed over the fact that htey could have hit the traitor and thought that was why the post bothered me, but I later realized it was because it glossed over the possibility of the-worst shot.

But yeah the vig *and* scum both decided to shoot a really random player (not so much on the vig's part), and the bg decided to protect him too, which just fucked up nka completely.

And then jay's fake result on una led esp to shoot una, and yeah the prs this game kinda made weird choices.

And that's not even geting into the fake-claim, sigh

Yeah the worst triple target was just really quite a bit of luck there.

[Montosh]

@Esp I really thought that I'd be the target that last night, what made you choose Una?

[Montosh]

Yeah Jay was kinda on a timer there, and I was getting more lynchable by the second, so Jay and I kinda just went all in Day 3.

From a town POV I really do think no-lynch would still have been a bad move not knowing that Jay was scum.

[Montosh]

It was definitely a fun game, the early claiming action made it pretty interesting and there was a lot going on.

I think you did a great job Math, you were well and present in our scum chat if I needed clarification for a rule so I appreciated that. Plus a good number of accurate VCs.

And I really liked your flavour. It was nice to read but not overdone.

[Montosh]

Yeah at a certain point I was just trolling there.

[Montosh]

Clearly you do

[Montosh]

I very much intend to stay this time, just gonna do one game at a time and not burn myself out.

And you were fun too. I liked this game, it was interesting.