Open 229 - Vengeful Mafia (Game Over)

[EGL]

Fen, you brought up the quicktopic. Was discussion allowed during D1 in the quicktopic?

[Fenchurch]

Yes. It says so in the sample mafia role pms posted at the start of the game. I wouldn't normally expect daytalk, but it was the same in the last vengeful I was in, probably because the game is night-less.

[EGL]

Oh. I thought maybe you knew something we didn't.

[Fenchurch]

Well one of you does know.

But yeah, when I read the rules that was one thing I looked out for, because I reckon mafia might act differently depending whether they can daytalk or not, ie. be more co-ordinated.

[Fenchurch]

Is that all you've got or are you still re-reading?

[Fenchurch]

Sorry that came out as more blunt than I meant it to. I just get tired of waiting a day and there are barely any new posts, was wondering if you have more you're going to add.

[EGL]

I'm not really re-reading at this point. I just want some more discussion. It's a bit difficult because I think we've discussed everything that happened from D1.

You've said a couple times that it's between me and Octupis but I think that would also be true if you were scum. Wouldn't it? Scum wants to mislynch a townie to win so for scum the mislynch is between the two townies. The two of us who are town don't know who is the other town but we both want to lynch scum so we can win.

That being said, I feel Fen was aggressive toward the robo lynch and introduced this wave of WIFOM. I think she's misused her "for me it's between you two" statements to try to appear as town when in fact the same situation applies if she's scum and she seems to be trying to hurry this phase along. So far I'd feel safest with a lynch on Fen today.

[EGL]

Fen, who would you lynch and why?

Octupis, who would you lynch and why?

[Fenchurch]

I'm not really re-reading at this point. I just want some more discussion. It's a bit difficult because I think we've discussed everything that happened from D1.

Sure. What more do you want to discuss about Day 1?

You've said a couple times that it's between me and Octupis but I think that would also be true if you were scum. Wouldn't it? Scum wants to mislynch a townie to win so for scum the mislynch is between the two townies. The two of us who are town don't know who is the other town but we both want to lynch scum so we can win.

Well of course. So you say yourself, if I'm scum then I want to lynch one of two, and if I'm town then I want to lynch scum, ie. one of you two. There is nothing in this argument that makes me more likely to be scum.

That being said, I feel Fen was aggressive toward the robo lynch and introduced this wave of WIFOM. I think she's misused her "for me it's between you two" statements to try to appear as town when in fact the same situation applies if she's scum and she seems to be trying to hurry this phase along. So far I'd feel safest with a lynch on Fen today.

I've said why my questions weren't WIFOM and you have ignored that. I don't see how limiting my focus to the two of you is misleading, it would be pointless for me to consider whether I might be scum. I am happy to answer to cases other people may have though.

I am not trying to hurry, but this game moves, in my opinion, painfully slowly. Whole vengefuls have started and finished since we began. I don't want to lynch prematurely, but if people posted more often then we could achieve both information and speed. I check the game several times a day and have re-read in full twice. So when there are just one or two new posts a day, one line each, that is frustrating to me.

Fen, who would you lynch and why?

I would lynch you. I think through D2 you've done your best to look like you're contributing, but I don't think you've come up with anything valid. I still think Mindgamer's hammer was the scummiest vote on D1. And I think Octupis' post #70 is a bit of a town-tell:

The only criticism that I would have, and I realise that this applies to me to, is that you have not been scum hunting per say, rather just answering the questions of Fenchurch.

I don't think a scum player would ever want to draw attention to the fact that they haven't really been scumhunting.

[Fenchurch]

I'd like to address this post again:

You keep mentioning the fact that Mindgamer ended the day fairly early, but you were very persistent in your attack on Robocopter. I don't think this is hypocritical of me because I did vote for Robocopter but that was after he started using a random generator to pick his targets, I had grounds to vote for him, I think yours were weak and you rather shortened day one in your own way by not allowing Robocopter to speak much. You tunnelled him from the beginning of the game, until he started talking rubbish.

I really don't think you can blame me for the Robo lynch. It took three votes, and if you didn't think it was a reasonable case at the time then you shouldn't have voted. The thing is, it did seem like a reasonable case at the time. I pushed hard because sometimes a scum player will drop tells when they're under pressure; if instead you say "I'm voting you but I don't think we should lynch you" then that relieves the pressure. I wasn't expecting a townie to react to pressure like Robo did, and it backfired because of that; but I think you agree that Robo's responses did seem scummy, and I was surprised at the flip. I accept that I was aggressive, and I've said why, but you can't hold me responsible for the actions of other players: for the other two votes, or for Robo's posts.

[Octupis]

I'm not really re-reading at this point. I just want some more discussion. It's a bit difficult because I think we've discussed everything that happened from D1.

Why not? You said you would review our posts in post 66. Why have you gone back on your word? It seems to me like an attempt to waste time and defelect attention from you at the time when you could have been put under some pressure by Fenchurch.

You've said a couple times that it's between me and Octupis but I think that would also be true if you were scum. Wouldn't it? Scum wants to mislynch a townie to win so for scum the mislynch is between the two townies. The two of us who are town don't know who is the other town but we both want to lynch scum so we can win.

This is just wifom. Whatever Fenchurch's alignment, she is only ever going to vote for me or you. This is a baseless argument.

I really don't think you can blame me for the Robo lynch. It took three votes, and if you didn't think it was a reasonable case at the time then you shouldn't have voted. The thing is, it did seem like a reasonable case at the time. I pushed hard because sometimes a scum player will drop tells when they're under pressure; if instead you say "I'm voting you but I don't think we should lynch you" then that relieves the pressure. I wasn't expecting a townie to react to pressure like Robo did, and it backfired because of that; but I think you agree that Robo's responses did seem scummy, and I was surprised at the flip. I accept that I was aggressive, and I've said why, but you can't hold me responsible for the actions of other players: for the other two votes, or for Robo's posts.

I am not blaming you for the Robo lynch. I did think it was a reasonable case at the time because I joined the lynch later than you did, by that time, he was suggesting a random generator. I had grounds to vote for him, but I think at the start, you rather made an awful lot of his vote. I am not blaiming you for any of the things you mentioned at the end of your post, I just think you were fairly aggressive to be honest. Are you anxious about this, because you have answered it twice just to me already?

As for who I would want to lynch, I am also leaning towards EGL. I beleive that Fenchurch has been doing well to promote discussion, and rather carry the game along. Since you joined EGL, you have slowed us down by false promises, caused wifom, and not really contributed a huge amount. Mindgamer didn't strike me as much of a town player either.

[EGL]

I'm not really re-reading at this point. I just want some more discussion. It's a bit difficult because I think we've discussed everything that happened from D1.

Why not? You said you would review our posts in post 66. Why have you gone back on your word? It seems to me like an attempt to waste time and defelect attention from you at the time when you could have been put under some pressure by Fenchurch.

I reread the game. Two days later you asked me if I was still rereading. And I said no. How is it going back on my word if I reread it already?

You've said a couple times that it's between me and Octupis but I think that would also be true if you were scum. Wouldn't it? Scum wants to mislynch a townie to win so for scum the mislynch is between the two townies. The two of us who are town don't know who is the other town but we both want to lynch scum so we can win.

This is just wifom.

Whatever Fenchurch's alignment, she is only ever going to vote for me or you.

This is a baseless argument.

The bolded part is what I had just said. Reread Fenchurch. She made mention of it and I was questioning her as to why.

I really don't think you can blame me for the Robo lynch. It took three votes, and if you didn't think it was a reasonable case at the time then you shouldn't have voted. The thing is, it did seem like a reasonable case at the time. I pushed hard because sometimes a scum player will drop tells when they're under pressure; if instead you say "I'm voting you but I don't think we should lynch you" then that relieves the pressure. I wasn't expecting a townie to react to pressure like Robo did, and it backfired because of that; but I think you agree that Robo's responses did seem scummy, and I was surprised at the flip. I accept that I was aggressive, and I've said why, but you can't hold me responsible for the actions of other players: for the other two votes, or for Robo's posts.

I am not blaming you for the Robo lynch. I did think it was a reasonable case at the time because I joined the lynch later than you did, by that time, he was suggesting a random generator. I had grounds to vote for him, but I think at the start, you rather made an awful lot of his vote. I am not blaiming you for any of the things you mentioned at the end of your post, I just think you were fairly aggressive to be honest. Are you anxious about this, because you have answered it twice just to me already?

As for who I would want to lynch, I am also leaning towards EGL. I beleive that Fenchurch has been doing well to promote discussion, and rather carry the game along. Since you joined EGL, you have slowed us down by false promises, caused wifom, and not really contributed a huge amount. Mindgamer didn't strike me as much of a town player either.

No. Fenchurch caused WIFOM.

Sorry if I haven't contributed that much. I'm replacing in with very little to go on and it took me a while to get my bearings about this game. I find it odd you complain that I wasn't doing a lot of scumhunting, yet when I do you complain about it. Anyway, you need to reread Fenchurch.

[Octupis]

I reread the game. Two days later you asked me if I was still rereading. And I said no. How is it going back on my word if I reread it already?

I presumed that you would have posted your thoughts to promote to discussion. No?

No. Fenchurch caused WIFOM.

How does this mean that you didn't also cause WIFOM? Just because Fenchurch did, doesn't mean that you didn't.

Sorry if I haven't contributed that much. I'm replacing in with very little to go on and it took me a while to get my bearings about this game. I find it odd you complain that I wasn't doing a lot of scumhunting, yet when I do you complain about it. Anyway, you need to reread Fenchurch.

There is no need to apologize. I don't remember complaining when you were scumhunting, do you have a quote? I will re read both of you in due course, but I am interested to note that you and constantly trying to make me scrutinize Fenchurch, thus deflecting attention from you.

[EGL]

If I had anything new to post, yes, which I eventually did.

[Fenchurch]

Sorry I haven't posted lately, I've got a friend staying for the weekend so I'm busy at the mo, I'll check in again on Monday.

[Octupis]

If I had anything new to post, yes, which I eventually did.

So the only thing that you got from reviewing the whole of the thread was that Fenchurch may have knew information others didn't because of the the quicktopic. I wasn't particularly enthralled by this attack because this is an open game, the role PMs are always posted on the first page. This again seems like pointless WIFOM when I come to think of it. This is not worthy of slowing the game down so you could re read. The more I look at your posts, the more I am thinking you are scum.

Also EGL, you seem to have ignored my request for a quote, when I complained about you scumhunting (apparently).

[EGL]

I'm not really re-reading at this point. I just want some more discussion. It's a bit difficult because I think we've discussed everything that happened from D1.

Why not? You said you would review our posts in post 66. Why have you gone back on your word? It seems to me like an attempt to waste time and defelect attention from you at the time when you could have been put under some pressure by Fenchurch.

You've said a couple times that it's between me and Octupis but I think that would also be true if you were scum. Wouldn't it? Scum wants to mislynch a townie to win so for scum the mislynch is between the two townies. The two of us who are town don't know who is the other town but we both want to lynch scum so we can win.

This is just wifom. Whatever Fenchurch's alignment, she is only ever going to vote for me or you. This is a baseless argument.

As for who I would want to lynch, I am also leaning towards EGL. I beleive that Fenchurch has been doing well to promote discussion, and rather carry the game along. Since you joined EGL, you have slowed us down by false promises, caused wifom, and not really contributed a huge amount. Mindgamer didn't strike me as much of a town player either.

There's your quote where you were complaining. I didn't think I'd need to quote the post right before where I said you had complained.

What I'd like to know is how has Fenchurch promoted better discussion with WIFOM about: 1) Robo's vengekill, 2) scum quicktopics, 3) stating that it's between me and you for her. I wanted to know why she said it to begin with. You parroted what I said, called it WIFOM, and then tried to say that I've caused WIFOM while ignoring Fen's WIFOM. What WIFOM have I directly caused?

I'd also like to note that your point about me trying to slow us down from a quick lynch being a scum tell is a poor point. Longer day phases favor the town. There wasn't much information to go on and so I pointed out that deadlines were pointless when you two were worrying about the deadline and the mod removed the deadline. I didn't want a D2 quick lynch due to the lack of information. Why are you complaining about that?

[EGL]

If I had anything new to post, yes, which I eventually did.

So the only thing that you got from reviewing the whole of the thread was that Fenchurch may have knew information others didn't because of the the quicktopic. I wasn't particularly enthralled by this attack because this is an open game, the role PMs are always posted on the first page. This again seems like pointless WIFOM when I come to think of it. This is not worthy of slowing the game down so you could re read. The more I look at your posts, the more I am thinking you are scum.

Also EGL, you seem to have ignored my request for a quote, when I complained about you scumhunting (apparently).

More complaints. And how is it WIFOM?

Also I didn't say I wanted the game slowed down for a reread. I said I wanted more discussion. I also said it wasn't necessarily discussion about D1.

[EGL]

And in both of those posts I've quoted you complained about me "slowing down the game." Why are you in such a rush to a lynch?

[Fenchurch]

Re-reading, rethinking.

[Octupis]

There's your quote where you were complaining. I didn't think I'd need to quote the post right before where I said you had complained.

You are incorrect. In that quote, I am not complaining that you are scumhunting, I am complaining that you are not scumhunting.

What I'd like to know is how has Fenchurch promoted better discussion with WIFOM about: 1) Robo's vengekill, 2) scum quicktopics, 3) stating that it's between me and you for her. I wanted to know why she said it to begin with. You parroted what I said, called it WIFOM, and then tried to say that I've caused WIFOM while ignoring Fen's WIFOM. What WIFOM have I directly caused?

What has Fenchurch's behaviour got to do with yours? To answer your question though, your point about Fenchurch bringing up the issue of quicktopis was WIFOM. You seem like a perceptive and intelligent person and it is quite clear that quicktopis would be a part of this game, especially considering that the mod posted the sample role PMs. To make matters worse, this is all you said when we were waiting for you to conclude your review, which never came.

I'd also like to note that your point about me trying to slow us down from a quick lynch being a scum tell is a poor point. Longer day phases favor the town. There wasn't much information to go on and so I pointed out that deadlines were pointless when you two were worrying about the deadline and the mod removed the deadline. I didn't want a D2 quick lynch due to the lack of information. Why are you complaining about that?

Where did I say that you were trying to slow down a

quick

lynch? That is a fabrication on your part. I never said I wanted a quick lynch. You are now lying to incriminate me. For the record, I don't want to a quick lynch (don't you think I would be voting if I did?), I want for the game to pick up pace in real time. I posted on the 18th, and there was no reply until the 20th, I kept checking back on this forum throughout the day because I have another game too but I was kinda sad not to have this game progress. I don't want a quick lynch, I want for our contributions and discussions to happen at a quicker pace.

What I'd like to know is how has Fenchurch promoted better discussion with WIFOM about: 1) Robo's vengekill, 2) scum quicktopics, 3) stating that it's between me and you for her. I wanted to know why she said it to begin with. You parroted what I said, called it WIFOM, and then tried to say that I've caused WIFOM while ignoring Fen's WIFOM. What WIFOM have I directly caused?

It is WIFOM because there are only three players in the game. Whatever Fenchurch's alignment, she isn't going to vote for herself, so it is always going to be between me and you. Just like it is only between you and Fenchurch for me. That much is true but you tried to confuse the matter with introducting the idea that this might change if Fencurch were scum. Which it wouldn't.

And in both of those posts I've quoted you complained about me "slowing down the game." Why are you in such a rush to a lynch?

I'm not.

EGL, who would you lynch and why?

Re-reading, rethinking.

Good.

[Fenchurch]

I am not blaiming you for any of the things you mentioned at the end of your post, I just think you were fairly aggressive to be honest. Are you anxious about this, because you have answered it twice just to me already?

I didn't think I addressed it fully the first time, and in your original quote, it did seem like you were trying to hold me mainly responsible for the mislynch.

This is just wifom.

Whatever Fenchurch's alignment, she is only ever going to vote for me or you.

This is a baseless argument.

The bolded part is what I had just said. Reread Fenchurch. She made mention of it and I was questioning her as to why.

I didn't 'make mention of it'; I just posted the 'clues' that I picked up on for both of you. Then you said I was limiting the game to the two of you, and I said that from my point of view, of course it was.

What I'd like to know is how has Fenchurch promoted better discussion with WIFOM about: 1) Robo's vengekill, 2) scum quicktopics, 3) stating that it's between me and you for her. I wanted to know why she said it to begin with. You parroted what I said, called it WIFOM, and then tried to say that I've caused WIFOM while ignoring Fen's WIFOM. What WIFOM have I directly caused?

It is WIFOM because there are only three players in the game. Whatever Fenchurch's alignment, she isn't going to vote for herself, so it is always going to be between me and you. Just like it is only between you and Fenchurch for me. That much is true but you tried to confuse the matter with introducting the idea that this might change if Fencurch were scum. Which it wouldn't.

You keep using that word... I do not think it means what you think it means.

Seriously, both of you keep bandying WIFOM around, I don't think that any of these points can be dispelled by that magic word. I actually thought the EGL checking how I knew there was a quicktopic was a good thing to ask. And all the other questions I asked... there are times when scum will be more likely to do something than town, whether consciously or unconsciously; and even if scum don't slip, that doesn't mean it wasn't worth a try.

EGL, I have already given my reasons for all 3 of your points. What about my answers was unsatisfactory? If nothing, why do you keep holding onto them?

[Octupis]

You keep using that word... I do not think it means what you think it means.

I had a look at the wiki thread and realise that you were right. I was under the impression that the world simply meant to cause confusion, but now realise that it is a specific type of confusion. Sorry about that.

Anyway, I think that there isn't an awful lot left to discuss and if we did find something, it wouldn't be particularly benificial to finding scum, so I am going to vote and see what happens, if I am wrong, then we always have another chance with the vengeful townie thing.

Vote EGL

. I think you are scum.

[Fenchurch]

Posting to confirm I'm not hammering.

I'm waiting for EGL to answer questions, my mind isn't 100% made up yet.

[Fenchurch]

BTW we don't have another chance for vengeful townie kill, that is only on the first night.