Open 250 - Pie E7 - Game Over! Scum Win

Vi
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Post Post #225  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:42 am

Okay then.

SaintKerrigan - Sorry your last game had to turn out like this. It's part of the job. And I still insist that there was no pro-Town reason for doing that.

Equinox - Equinox would have made the game a lot weirder. The fixation on ckd pretty much cemented that. I'm still disappointed that you didn't recognize me from the wiki.

curiouskarmadog - First, that kind of fakehammer won't and shouldn't work in any game. I think that has been beaten into the ground. However, it's pretty undeniable at this point that you THOUGHT it would work, so that's not a big issue. What IS a big issue is the pity party you threw for yourself immediately afterward - "oh I'm so obviously scum now and the scum even went to great lengths to frame me by killing Equinox"--puh-leeze. Zach suggested the Equinox kill because she's (allegedly) unpredictable, and we knew that she WOULDN'T be Doc protected. Nobody cared that she was the only person voting you (for a random reason, no less!).

You ARE entitled to one "I told you so" per Townie for correctly calling the scum team in the position with the LEAST random accuracy in that situation. I'm still deciding if your vote on me was a good idea or not, considering if you had left it there for any significant length of time VP Baltar would have caught on to a lack of quickhammer there (especially if npau joined in voting for me) and then the game would have been over in the worst kind of way. (well, for me, anyway)

VP Baltar - somehow managed to be dubious and obvTown at the same time. I didn't particularly LIKE being manipulated in that quickhammer "trap", and he kept saying things that made me cringe a little, but he did most of the legwork for Town and was placed in a very convenient position to make the demand terms and command attention.

nopointactingup - Your scumdar needs an upgrade. For one, scum are unlikely to lie about their beliefs on the THEORY of the game. Even if I was scum, the way I was saying to play the game was optimal - hence why I thought VP Baltar was more likely Town and pushed on that until it was true. Once I found the Townie, the other two nonconfirmeds were scum; there's no point in listening to them too carefully. In addition, not all Town reads have to be stated with flashing lights around why. If you find unclarified Town reads to be scummy, you're going to wind up with undeserved scum reads on experienced players who don't deserve them.

sottyrulez - You and npau were victims of the Page 2 hammer; you didn't get a chance to do anything that didn't look like standing around doing nothing. By the time massclaim had come, you were out of luck and almost out of options. You made the right play by going after VP Baltar in spite of him being obvTown; this victory wouldn't have been possible without it.

Vi - I hate being scum. Not so much for moral reasons any more, but because every time it happens people are freshly reminded that they can't trust ANYTHING I SAY EVER. (The Scummy under my name is there for irony.) Standing by and watching VP Baltar ask ckd for his Vi-case in engrossing detail was difficult because I'm fairly sure VPB's motivation for asking for it stemmed partly from his (however justified) lack of confidence in being able to read me based on previous games.

I probably went a little overboard on grouchiness in regards to ckd, but etc.

The biggest blunder of the game was mine. I absolutely Did Not see ckd-Doc coming, so I didn't even bother asking him to claim, instead choosing my partner to go next. After npau claimed Vanilla, I fully expected VP Baltar to be the Doctor, and I decided (wisely under these incorrect assumptions) not try to go toe-to-toe with him. THAT's how Day 2 post-massclaim was just as strong as if Day 1 was more "normal".

While getting pseudo-manipulated by VP Baltar was rather annoying, I was hoping to stall until npau voted. Really I wasn't sure which would look less scummy between immediately voting sottyrulez and hoping for the best in LyLo or waiting for npau and hoping nobody saw what was up. The stakes were raised when ckd started voting me, so I don't think we won by any kind of large margin.

jasont1981 - The modding was invisible and just what this game needed. Your call on the fakehammer was 100% correct. My only recommendation is to place the player list in the topic post like 97% of the rest of the mods onsite.

Pie E7 - I'm still halfway through running the numbers - there are a lot of possibilities to consider - but really, this game HAS to be Town-sided compared to others. Short of lynching an unclaimed/uncounterclaimed power role D1, there is GUARANTEED to be at least one confirmed Townie in 5P LyLo. Scum either has to pony up one of their own to claim, or most of the Town has significantly BETTER odds of lynching scum D2 and possibly LyLo as well. If there are MULTIPLE confirmed innocents D2 (say the Cop gets an investigation or both the Cop and Doc are left alive) then the scum are in deep trouble if they DON'T counterclaim, so etc.. I feel the setup is really dominated by who gets which role.

---

VP Baltar wrote::( I just can't win no matter how hard I try.
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Vi
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Post Post #226  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:45 am

St.Kerrigan wrote:That leaves either nopoint or sottyrulez as Vi's partner. I think the probability is higher for sottyrulez to be scum, because I don't think that npau-scum would popcorn his scumbuddy,
Oh, like I did?~

I feel incredibly dumb for missing Equinox's breadcrumb.
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Post Post #227  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:49 am

Sorry VP :(

As a scum team we almost screwed this up royally. First, Vi asking us to claim before CKD was crazy to me. He really should have been asked to go before us so we could counter if needs be. As it was we had a discussion and had really settled on claiming doc. Then I read one of CKD's post and convinced myself somehow that VP was the doc. I didn't want to go for him so we went with the safe townie claim and the rest was well... blegh. Sorry, Zach, should have followed your call.

Vi you have some balls voting for us before nopoint came in. I really thought it was game over when you did that, talk about staring down the barrel of a gun. CKD's subsequent Vi vote made me laugh out loud. Once you stopped being under pressure CKD, you had nailed the scum team pretty well.

We also tried to manipulate Zach's scum meta to make us look townie. That is why I pushed him to make the case on VP in the manner he did. That almost worked as well.

All in all, an enjoyable game I'd say.

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Post Post #228  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:50 am

Vi wrote:I feel incredibly dumb for missing Equinox's breadcrumb.

Ha, I see it now too. Funny.

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Post Post #229  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:57 am

Vi wrote:I didn't particularly LIKE being manipulated in that quickhammer "trap"

:( What was wrong with that? You didn't feel it was a fair play to make?

Vi wrote:he kept saying things that made me cringe a little

que?

Vi wrote:VP Baltar ask ckd for his Vi-case in engrossing detail was difficult because I'm fairly sure VPB's motivation for asking for it stemmed partly from his (however justified) lack of confidence in being able to read me based on previous games.

Yes, exactly. As much as I was against lynching you today, tomorrow would have been a completely different story because you're adept enough at appearing town. As I said earlier, reading you is sort of like reading tea leaves. You can't really look at the words you're saying because they'll appear town. It's more about feel in relation to whoever else is alive. Then again, maybe you've just played with me too much and know how to sound reasonable in particular to me. :P

Also, I do agree with you that this setup favors town, so kudos to you guys on that.

Sotty wrote:We also tried to manipulate Zach's scum meta to make us look townie. That is why I pushed him to make the case on VP in the manner he did. That almost worked as well.

Ha! I knew it! I was really hoping to catch just you posting the whole time because that's a dead sign of Zach scum.
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Post Post #230  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:00 am

Vi, I did put tha player list in the top post ;)

I tried not to post vote counts every time a vote was made so as to let the game flow. I had a family issue during last week that caused me to be otherwise occupied also. I do find it funny though, the last PieE7 I was involved in ended with a town whitewash win on scum... this time it was the other way around. I have never been in a Pie E7 that has seen a micture of town and scum lynched.

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Post Post #231  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:12 am

VP Baltar wrote:
Vi wrote:I didn't particularly LIKE being manipulated in that quickhammer "trap"
:( What was wrong with that? You didn't feel it was a fair play to make?
Don't :( me; you're making me sad.
It was KIND of a fair play to make considering the difference in me and npau's access times, but expecting me to vote when you said it would be a scummy sign wasn't fair.

Vi wrote:he kept saying things that made me cringe a little
que?
At times it felt like you were saying things that you couldn't get away with if you weren't obvTown. Watch this exchange again for an example.
YOU: So sotty and npau are both scum because you're Town. Who do you want to lynch first?
ME: It doesn't matter. sotty, I guess.
YOU: So we're lynching npau! If you're scum, you're more likely to be scum with the person you didn't name.
ME: Um. What? When did I become scum? And considering I picked sotty because they're more likely to be scum IF you are, it sounds like you just charmed your way into not lynching your partner :igmeou:

Vi wrote:VP Baltar ask ckd for his Vi-case in engrossing detail was difficult because I'm fairly sure VPB's motivation for asking for it stemmed partly from his (however justified) lack of confidence in being able to read me based on previous games.
Yes, exactly. As much as I was against lynching you today, tomorrow would have been a completely different story because you're adept enough at appearing town. As I said earlier, reading you is sort of like reading tea leaves. You can't really look at the words you're saying because they'll appear town. It's more about feel in relation to whoever else is alive. Then again, maybe you've just played with me too much and know how to sound reasonable in particular to me. :P
I evidently didn't sound reasonable to SaintKerrigan, though I'm not sure why :?

--

jason wrote:Vi, I did put tha player list in the top post ;)
You need to visit my reality more often. I'm wrong a lot less.
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Post Post #232  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:16 am

Vi wrote:nopointactingup - Your scumdar needs an upgrade.

True.
In addition, not all Town reads have to be stated with flashing lights around why. If you find unclarified Town reads to be scummy, you're going to wind up with undeserved scum reads on experienced players who don't deserve them.

I disagree with this. I don't call for flashbulbs either. The only reason I think such tells are invalid in this game is that you guys know each other well enough to have unexplained town reads.
While getting pseudo-manipulated by VP Baltar was rather annoying, I was hoping to stall until npau voted. Really I wasn't sure which would look less scummy between immediately voting sottyrulez and hoping for the best in LyLo or waiting for npau and hoping nobody saw what was up. The stakes were raised when ckd started voting me, so I don't think we won by any kind of large margin.

Actually I was also stalling for your vote. You voting Shotty created false confidence for me to reject Vi-Sotty-scum. I thought it was a strategic move.
Sotty7 wrote:
Vi wrote:I feel incredibly dumb for missing Equinox's breadcrumb.

Ha, I see it now too. Funny.

I saw it on D2 while rereading the thread. Not that it mattered at that situation xD.
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Post Post #233  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:21 am

nopointinactingup wrote:I disagree with this. I don't call for flashbulbs either. The only reason I think such tells are invalid in this game is that you guys know each other well enough to have unexplained town reads.
Well, that's not necessarily true. It's possible to get newbTown (or n00bTown) reads on people you don't know that are difficult to explain either because you can't find the words to do it or nobody will believe you anyway.

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Post Post #234  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:28 am

There are scums who look for a town and consider all else to be scums, there are scums who look for a hypo-scum and consider all else towns. You don't like playing scum I suppose you'd pick the former.

Misspelted xD.
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Post Post #235  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:33 am

That kind of makes sense, but looking for Townies and considering everyone else to be scum doesn't work outside awesome PoE like what this setup allows or basic Day 1 "acceptable lynches".
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Post Post #236  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:39 am

We lost too much input from the short D1. That's why I wasn't satisfied when everyone used POE as sole means of finding scum.
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Post Post #237  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:52 am

Vi wrote:It was KIND of a fair play to make considering the difference in me and npau's access times, but expecting me to vote when you said it would be a scummy sign wasn't fair.

It was more of a deterrent to keep either of you from voting while I was asleep. Apparently it worked!

Vi wrote:At times it felt like you were saying things that you couldn't get away with if you weren't obvTown. Watch this exchange again for an example.
YOU: So sotty and npau are both scum because you're Town. Who do you want to lynch first?
ME: It doesn't matter. sotty, I guess.
YOU: So we're lynching npau! If you're scum, you're more likely to be scum with the person you didn't name.
ME: Um. What? When did I become scum? And considering I picked sotty because they're more likely to be scum IF you are, it sounds like you just charmed your way into not lynching your partner

Yeah, once I think I'm town enough, I'll abuse the hell out of it. I think it scares the scum a lot more than playing the uncertainty game. Even though that tactic in particular was wrong (should have factored in YOUR love of bussing too :P) I think the logic behind it was sound for a player that was aiming to win D2.

Additionally:
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Post Post #238  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:01 am

in regards to the pity party....what else could I have done?

I knew going into Day 2 that I was going to be a lynch (especially having the doc claim)...I had to try any AND everything. and quite honestly that was how I felt. I was pissed and embarassed, so it wasnt so much of a pity party as a "I fucked up". I have never been in a game where that had been an issue and really thought I had done soemthing like that before (again it was a vig and not a vote)...so at least I learned something.

what saved me during the claim was Nopoint coming out and claiming and then picking someone else to claim...I knew I had to be one of the last people to claim for it to work....

but I think scum would agree, they didnt win because they were just that good...they won because we really dropped the ball....
annnnd, I am retired.

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Post Post #239  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:03 am

curiouskarmadog wrote:I have never been in a game where that had been an issue and really thought I had done soemthing like that before (again it was a vig and not a vote)...so at least I learned something.
Saying you have never been in a game where it had been an issue when it has only happened once seems like a technicality.

what saved me during the claim was Nopoint coming out and claiming and then picking someone else to claim...I knew I had to be one of the last people to claim for it to work....

but I think scum would agree, they didnt win because they were just that good...they won because we really dropped the ball....
Nope. The scum, or rather I, dropped the ball by not forcing you to claim early, essentially canceling out your mistake.
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Post Post #240  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:04 am

EBWOP: That middle part shouldn't be there.
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Post Post #241  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:10 am

"technicality"...no it is an explanation....I didnt know it was an issue..obviously the blame is all mine for not reading the rules, but I have read rules in the passed and that has never been in them. I guess I was offended at the "CKD is a VI" type comments....i am not, I really thought I was scum hunting.
annnnd, I am retired.

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Post Post #242  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:20 am

For what it's worth, coming out and admitting the mistake at the start of the day was really the best move that could be made. What else is there really to say other than "I fucked up, sorry." Once I saw you doing all your searching, I honestly was starting to believe that you thought there had been a precedence for it. Had you been counterclaimed by Sotty, I probably would have believed you. Had Vi counterclaimed, I'm not so sure. At least you sounded honest though.
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Post Post #243  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:23 am

Equinox wrote:/confirm

Congratulations, curiouskarmadog!

Oh, boy. This player list is rather droolworthy, even though I only know half of you. Hi, nopointinactingup and sottyrulez! Also a hello to curiouskarmadog, who I've seen before but he probably hasn't seen me.

Putting greetings aside... Activity notice: I will try to post at least once every 24 hours, and I'll post a V/LA notice if I need to be out for longer than that. Walls of text will scare Equinox away and extend any V/LA she's on.

This is the most embarrassing and stupid breadcrumb for cop I have ever done. Never doing that again.

Well-played, sottyrulez and Vi.
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Post Post #244  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:26 am

If it makes you feel any better, no one picked up on the crumb.

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Post Post #245  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:27 am

You should NOT make them distinct paragraghs. Capitalization is enough =P
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Post Post #246  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:56 am

Now that I'm sort of caught up...

Vi wrote:I'm still disappointed that you didn't recognize me from the wiki.

Eek. Sorry. ._.

curiouskarmadog wrote:can we do a reboot with a real Day 1?

+1, would /in for this.

So, uh... I wasn't paying too much attention after my death. I probably should reread, particularly since VP Baltar's lynch is interesting. And it's a Vi-sotty scum team, much to learn there.

Vi wrote:I evidently didn't sound reasonable to SaintKerrigan, though I'm not sure why

Initially, I had my investigate on you because you were making a huge mountain out of SaintKerrigan's molehill. The attack was rather unreasonable, at least IMO. I had a change of heart and switched to CKD because I figured I needed mod-confirmed information on him to make sure he wasn't pulling a gambit-gambit. Didn't matter in the end, though.

So yeah. I don't think I have too many comments.

nopointinactingup wrote:You should NOT make them distinct paragraghs. Capitalization is enough =P

Thanks for the tip. This was the first time I tried the capitalization crumb. Normally I do something else.
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Post Post #247  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:59 am

Sotty7 wrote:If it makes you feel any better, no one picked up on the crumb.


Yeah, we just saw you as the most practical kill, and you flipped cop, which was great for us.

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Post Post #248  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:07 pm

Vi wrote:In the meantime I'm p-r-e-t-t-y sure Pie E7 is Town-biased, and I'm working on the numbers to see how true it is.


In looking through the wiki regarding the original newbie setup, I think it was determined that setup was relatively balanced. (The only difference is that mafia has no roleblocker in that setup.) It was simply undesirable because of follow the cop.

The addition of the roleblocker eliminates that to a degree... and probably adds a few points against the town EV.

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Post Post #249  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:21 pm

Equinox wrote:
Vi wrote:I evidently didn't sound reasonable to SaintKerrigan, though I'm not sure why
Initially, I had my investigate on you because you were making a huge mountain out of SaintKerrigan's molehill. The attack was rather unreasonable, at least IMO. I had a change of heart and switched to CKD because I figured I needed mod-confirmed information on him to make sure he wasn't pulling a gambit-gambit. Didn't matter in the end, though.
Whale, it's pretty much as I said on Page 2. If nobody was going to start making a big deal of SOMETHING, the game wasn't going to go anywhere. We needed a starting point, and I was willing to provide one even if it meant (hopefully temporarily) getting on someone's bad side to do it. Had Day 1 lasted until I found a better target, I would have almost completely dropped that line of argument.

In looking through the wiki regarding the original newbie setup, I think it was determined that setup was relatively balanced. (The only difference is that mafia has no roleblocker in that setup.) It was simply undesirable because of follow the cop.

The addition of the roleblocker eliminates that to a degree... and probably adds a few points against the town EV.
Relative to other games, though, I think this setup has a higher-than-average Town EV.
In addition, I would expect an experienced Town to steamroll the scum in a game that is 50/50 given random lynches and Night actions.
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