Open 576: The Enemy of my Enemy is my...Enemy? (Day 2)

[Voidedmafia]

Votecount 2.03:

NJAC - Oilura
dragonspawn - 2birds, Mathdino
Oilura - Riabi, dragonspawn, Nova
2birds - Teen Girl
Riabi - guille

Not Voting - NJAC, Clusk92

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch and 5 to no-lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2014-11-12 21:47:01) or by 7:45 PM on November 12th, 2014.

[Mathdino]

I'm a little unhappy about guille vs Riabi, I was kind of hoping we could all silently agree to townread each other and PoE the game out.

Okay, this post gave me flashes of 2birds1scum. You're implicitly proposing a townbloc, or at least hoping for one that you're part of.

Fishy. You also choose to say you're unhappy with the conflict developing, rather than directly criticising the arguments made.

[2birds1stone]

I'm a little unhappy about guille vs Riabi, I was kind of hoping we could all silently agree to townread each other and PoE the game out.

Okay, this post gave me flashes of 2birds1scum. You're implicitly proposing a townbloc, or at least hoping for one that you're part of.

Fishy. You also choose to say you're unhappy with the conflict developing, rather than directly criticising the arguments made.

That's how townblocs generally work.

The arguments made aren't worth commenting on yet, the conflict is.

[Oilura]

Oilura

, try harder. I understand what your issue is, but scum here are harder to find than on other sites. You won't find them by searching for people who suck at the game. Sort your townreads maybe, use PoE. I assure you that there's scum in the active people of the past 2 pages.

If I use my gut, I would say that guille and Nova are scum.

It is pretty hard to find scum when there are 3+ lurkers (unless lurkers are scum).

[Mathdino]

I'm a little unhappy about guille vs Riabi, I was kind of hoping we could all silently agree to townread each other and PoE the game out.

Okay, this post gave me flashes of 2birds1scum. You're implicitly proposing a townbloc, or at least hoping for one that you're part of.

Fishy. You also choose to say you're unhappy with the conflict developing, rather than directly criticising the arguments made.

That's how townblocs generally work.

The arguments made aren't worth commenting on yet, the conflict is.

Townblocs are not formed by people talking about them. They evolve as the game goes on.
I don't know, it looks like you're trying to solidify your townread status in a lot of people's minds.

So hang on, you're unhappy with the guille vs Riabi conflict but you choose not to dissect guille's argument or take it apart, prove him wrong?

[2birds1stone]

Townblocs are not formed by people talking about them. They evolve as the game goes on.

Townblocs are formed both ways. Rainbowdash is particularly well-known for explicitly calling for townblocs.

So hang on, you're unhappy with the guille vs Riabi conflict but you choose not to dissect guille's argument or take it apart, prove him wrong?

I'm unhappy with the fact that the conflict developed. I may comment on the actual arguments when they finish playing out.

[2birds1stone]

Well, tag failures, we meet again.

[Riabi]

Riabi

: You already admitted that everyone is trying to scumhunt, so why does being willing to change opinions and have spot-on analysis townish exempt one from scummy behaviour? Check mastin's and 2birds's ISOs if you want to see the main issues people have with TGS.

I'm not saying that it exempts one from scummy behavior, but I feel like in this case, TGS's townish behavior outweighs his scummy behavior.

Anyway, what's your read on Nova atm?

Probably town-ish? Not a strong read, but, he reads like the guy at the poker table who's really quiet and that you know if you're going to push him, you'd better have the cards. He seems confident, which seems to me to be out of place if he were a new-to-the-site scum. I know he's played other places before, but there's still a lot of cultural differences from playing in-person to playing here (or other sites, for that matter).

... The problem is that Oilura's hammer wasn't what was scummy, but rather Oiluras attempt to defend it. The hammer was simply bad play...

I think our views on Oilura's play are largely subjective (other than the fact we both agree it was bad). I think Oilura's hammer was scummy. I think the defense of it only made it worse, but I absolutely think the hammer itself was scummy. To me it felt like Oliura didn't like the way the discussion around the lynch was going, and wanted to end it before mastin or someone else had the chance to move the wagon somewhere else.

Riabi, Tell me more about your read of Clusk.

Hmmm, something pinged me as town on him earlier, but, he's one of the few I didn't actually ISO when I made my previous read post. Now that I've ISO'd him, I have to agree with you that he didn't contribute anything. He's now on my "probably scum" list. Not because of the frequency of the posts, but, the lack of content in what few posts there are. I'm guessing he'll be replaced soon (based on the fact that he's been prodded and we still haven't heard anything), so hopefully his replacement can help us shed some light on that slot.

So, to be clear, here is my current list:

Probably town: Mathdino, TGS
Leaning town: 2birds, Nova
Can't Tell: NJAC,
Leaning scum: Guille, dragonspawn
Probably scum: Oilura, Clusk

[Mathdino]

^This is very likely to be town.

Note the very nuanced reads on Nova and Oilura. However, I can definitely see guille's suspicion of a possible Riabi/TGS. One question,

@Riabi:

See, I still don't quite understand why, say, 2birds is below TGS on your list. You concede that TGS has displayed some scummy behaviour, but her willingness to scumhunt outweighs that. What makes you put 2birds below someone who we agree has been at least slightly scummy?
Also, thoughts on guille's behaviour between your last 2 posts?

[dragonspawn]

Oilura

, try harder. I understand what your issue is, but scum here are harder to find than on other sites. You won't find them by searching for people who suck at the game. Sort your townreads maybe, use PoE. I assure you that there's scum in the active people of the past 2 pages.

If I use my gut, I would say that guille and Nova are scum.

It is pretty hard to find scum when there are 3+ lurkers (unless lurkers are scum).

if you think nova and guille are scum, why are you voting for njac?

[Mathdino]

Took only a bit of meta to show town-Riabi. Her reads as town are waaaay better than as scum. More detailed, less based on verdicts and more based on analysis. That said,

So, this is my first game here, from looking through a lot of the old forums, it looks like random voting is somewhat common 'round these parts, so, with that in mind, I'm going to VOTE: TRex and TRex, if you want me to change my vote, it's up to you to convince me you aren't scum. Aren't all dinosaurs inherently scummy?

y u no early vote me

[Mathdino]

EBWOP: *His

[Mathdino]

Am I buddying teen girl or in a rivalry or setting her up? I find maths dense of oilura. Interesting. Is that why you are gunning for me? You mad that I'm going at your partner?

I think you were creating a rivalry earlier on. I never agreed to the other two positions. I think my position is pretty clear.

I don't know what "I find math's dense of Oilura" means.

Who do you think is scum Dragonspawn?

pretty good argument concerning the biggest anti town usually being town since scum won't take that chance. Can we take that chance?

all and all I'm thinking bird comes across as town to me.

Here's dragonspawn's townread of 2birds I mentioned earlier. He agrees that Astinus is acting too scummy to be scum and townreads 2birds for it, but later votes Astinus anyway. It's just strange to me.

Dragon, what are your thoughts on 2birds now?

Dragonspawn

, please answer these questions.

[dragonspawn]

You haven't really taken a stance on Oilura since very early game. But in the latter post you're speculating on what scumteam he's on. What's your current read on him given the meta information? Is he in your lynchpool?

Null-scum, emphasis on "null". He's not in my short-term lynchpool (though that's a very narrow pool), but I wouldn't mind getting him out the way if we earn some free mislynches.

I'm a little unhappy about guille vs Riabi, I was kind of hoping we could all silently agree to townread each other and PoE the game out.

I'm little confused by this. Why would you hope for anyone to silently agree to town read each other? Especially if someone finds another person suspicious? It doesn't make any sense to me.

[guille2015]

^This is very likely to be town.

Why would you think this? There is only one thing there that I like but the rest is not so certain. Don't answer this though until Riabi answers your question, I am really interested in finding that out.

<EBWOP> So, I'm going to have to meta Riabi now. Fine, I got nothing better to do, other than to work and provide for my familiy.</EBWOP>

[dragonspawn]

Wait two seconds math. Sheesh. Takes time to go through everything.


oil is probably my biggest scum read right now. Math probably second. Still haven't seen much fro. Njac or nova so maybe them.

as for birds in still thinking he is town. Misguided about me and I'm not understanding the statement I quoted but still pretty much a town read.

I'll have some more reads later when I can look through everything again.

[Mathdino]

He has 1 scum game and 1 recent towngame, both with fairly short ISOs. The general feel that I got was that scum-Riabi was more interested in getting verdicts on people, labeling them as lean-scum or town or null or the like, while town-Riabi was more interested in analysing people and THEN coming to a verdict. In essence, scum-him fits the evidence to the reads.

But sure, I'll wait.

Edit: I figured you were quoting in chrono order, and since I saw you quote Oilura at about post 300, I thought you'd missed them.

[guille2015]

But sure, I'll wait.

[Mathdino]

Well that's only my read AFTER meta
There's definitely more to that read, haha.

[guille2015]

Dragon, why is math scum?

[dragonspawn]

I was kinda hoping I'd be able to put in more effort D1.
UNVOTE: TGS
VOTE: Astinus

this is probably the first post that made me suspicious of math. It rubbed me the wrong way because why stop putting in an effort when we have a suspect? Even assuming the choice is correct we have three more scum to find. We have interactions between people to watch. There is no need to state there is no more effort needed unless you are looking for a place to park a vote and want an excuse if you get called on lack of activity later.

[dragonspawn]

Fun, first game with mastin and she sextuple-posts xD.

@mastin: Useful questions but I can't really answer many of them; haven't played that many games really. My wiki's kept updated, although I didn't feel like putting this game in because it was abandoned and mostly consists of me translating a post restriction and bickering with scum about setup. I want to make a rule not to self-meta anything recent (at least not in gameposts, so you can make what you will of my play. That said, I played my first 3 games like shit and that was over a year ago, so I think an ISO of Mini 1617 will give you a better impression.

I'm confused as to your read on Astinus. He literally said what he did may not be helpful to VTs, when that's the only town role in the game. Explain?

Oh, yeah, and can someone please get Astinus off L-1 on friggin page 3? Thanks.

looks like he is buddying mastin.

in fact, he jumps on oilura two posts later. At the time I wasn't sure if it was just more buddying of mastin or just reaction to oilura reaction to mastin votes. But it seems to me it could be both.

I wasn't sure if he was scum or it was just the play style since I've never played with him before. I'm leaning scum right now though I think oilura is a better candidate.

[dragonspawn]

I'm not sure I like your certainty in the face of this level of craziness. Any claim that amounts to "I'm not town" obviously needs to be lynched, but I have no idea how anyone can be as confident as you are.

And I'm not sure I like how quickly you're trying to lynch her. There are 3 more scum, and either 1 or 2 perspectives that are going to die tonight. Just because we're going to lynch Astinus doesn't mean we have to do it

right now

. All it does is help the other scumteam get a free pass today for not contributing.
Also, Astinus has a partner assuming she's scum. Keeping the day going gives us more to analyse come D2.

D1 quicklynch has never benefited any town.

totally backtrack of what math was saying when he originally voted astinus

[Mathdino]

I correctly predicted that the entire day would revolve around Astinus and her dumb move, and when this happens, player interactions are always more difficult to analyse pre-flip when one player goes and hijacks the day. Furthermore, I knew it'd probably end earlier than usual despite our collective best efforts to promote further discussion.

You'll also note that I in no way stopped putting in effort, and I tried to invent a possible strategy to deal with Astinus in order to get more out of that discussion than "Astinus confscum, let's lynch". And at the end of the day, I did watch interactions between people and came up with reads.

If I wanted an excuse to not put in effort, why didn't I follow through with that? 37 was a sarcastic comment, nothing more.

Edit: Implying answering a question to the best of my ability is buddying. I want people to be able to effectively metaread me because it doesn't get us caught up on pointless debates about the past.
Honestly, part of the reason I jumped on Oilura was the comment on mental stability and trying to use that as a reason to lynch mastin. It pissed me off.

Edit2: Uh, how's that a backtrack? I said I was hoping to put in more effort than would be required to lynch Astinus. In 107, I tried to promote that by not encouraging a quicklynch.

[dragonspawn]

Oh hell I was just ISOing mastin when I realised I came up with the exact same reads as her inadvertently.
Dammit.

Well, I can use mastin's PoE here. I'm almost certain the remaining scum are within {Clusk, dragonspawn, Oilura, TGS, NJAC (iffy on this one), mastin}. Judging by everyone's reactions to Astinus reading through the thread, I don't think anyone's really bussing suspiciously and so far the most suspish reaction is coming from mastin, so going with her as scumpartner.

Of those, Oilura's definitely still my top scumread. Gonna ISO her with a few other players, and then I'll ISO dragonspawn, TGS, and mastin altogether to see if there's any credence to the dragonspawn and TGS both being scum theory.

more buddying of mastin while trying to make it look like he was suspicious of mastin.

interesting that oilura is his top scum read at the end of yesterday and yet he has been on me all of today.