Open 620: Duck Duck Goose Game Over, Mafia Victory

[droog]

You're blaming the people who spoke up against town's horrible dogmatic tunneling on people who spoke up against the town circlejerk for having not swayed the town circlejerk into voting scum instead.

That's not how the game works.

im not blaming anyone
i know i played a bad game
but i dont see you making a case that you played a great game

[droog]

If you guys managed to lynch scum after I was gone you'd have a case.

you didn't.

so I think that vindicates everything that both of us were saying.

this isn't a situation where it's justified for you to go and blame us

when we were both victims

of the blind tunneling of half of the town.

[droog]

i spent half of mathilda's lynch
trying to tease reads from her
pushing for her analysis of the loweell wagon

not a victim

[RadiantCowbells]

I didn't play a great game because I wasn't able to play a great game because town was groupthinking onto terrible wagons.
I was not responsible for the awful groupthink that lost this game, you guys were.
Why does whether or not I played a great game come into question: answer- because you're trying to knock me down to your level.

I objectively was not a part of any of the terrible groupthink that killed town. I'm satisfied with that, and if there hadn't been that groupthink that excluded me I would have been able to do well.

[droog]

I wasn't able to play a great game because town was groupthinking onto terrible wagons.

right
its our fault you didnt play well

[RadiantCowbells]

yes, it is.

I don't think that's a hard conclusion for you to grasp unless you're wilfully refusing to grasp it.

I pinned both of the early lynches as town. You're expecting me to both have fully accurate reads without being able to pressure people and to be able to sway you guys out of your terrible groupthink while you guys are claiming to scumread me for absolutely bogus reasons that essentially boil down to 'he's standing outside of our mad lynch crowd- GET HIM!'

so yeah. it is your (collective) fault I didn't do more for town. Why do you think I wanted to leave in the first place? come now.

[Titus]

RC, if everyone in the game cannot play well with you, you're at least partially at fault.

You're dismissive of anything that isn't in agreement with you and you do it in every game we've had together. You're not even acknowledging others having points or thinking out scenarios where you could be wrong.

[MrTrow]

Trow was hunting scum but to be honest I couldn't understand what he was saying most of the time.

This is a problem i am aware of and have no idea how to fix it.
If you don't get what i'm saying: just ask.

Nobody ever once made a proper case against me. They just expected me to do all the defending and make cases on other people no matter how much I was scum hunting. And whatever I said, confirmation bias kicked in.

The way i saw it:
i saw you claiming to have stated a case 'against droog'/'counter-wagon for lowell', but i couldn't find it.
I found plenty of arguments on how scumhunting is supposed to work, including a complete paragraph about the fundamentals of motivation-hunting (which i agree with btw)
I assume there was a case scattered somewhere among there,
but it was written in a way that made it really hard to find it
and made it seem like 'attempting to be seen trying to push a (failing) counterwagon'

Both seemed possible to me.
So that's basically why i asked:

There's still more than a day left. That's enough time for a counter-wagon.

Could you stop trying to convince people you are trying to push a counter-wagon and instead actually push the counter-wagon.

Lets start with an easy target, me.
I have read the entire game once, in a single sitting deep into the night, chances i missed something...... reasonable.
Threat of my vote making 'the currently only viable wagon' unlynchable... zero.

Pick your counter-wagon(s) and/or your case for town-lowell, drop all assumptions about what i have and haven't noticed.
And convince me.

Basically, take a step back and (calmly) state your case.
- Whether or not it is a case you've stated before is not relevant (yes i assume it will be the same case, but if you changed your mind on stuff, or i misread, or you want to push something different altogether: ALL issues for later)
- Whether i didn't read as thoroughly as i should have, or you wrote things not as clear and concise as you think you did is not relevant. (As we have just (re)established, i'm often enough, not as clear as i think i am)

Basically trying to get clarity on what the case was, to either dispel or prove the 'wants to be seen pushing a counter-wagon to a mislynch, but doesn't want that counter-wagon to actually go anywhere'.
Not unlike eggs stance on pips case, actually.

[droog]

This is a problem i am aware of and have no idea how to fix it.

i think part of this is just the shape of your posts
i said some not nice things about it in game
but in general it semes like your posts

become longer than necessary
they're not walls in the usual sense
but they have a few quotes each with a paragraph or two
after each one

that gives them a chunky sense
that is kind of easy to glaze ones eyes over

[Egg]

Trow, I was gonna do the quote thing. It was gonna be a huge block of every time you talked to something pip and myself with bolding every time you implied either of us was scum. And had you asked about Titus, I may very well have answered with *shrug*. I sure as hell wouldn't have done anything to draw attention to it. Burn was bussing Newbie so hard anyway that Titus didn't make sense as a Newbie buddy and I was voting Newbie, but I think people forgot about that so I stopped mentioning it.

I'm kinda sorry about how the game went. D3 was kinda "these are my reads and if I'm wrong fuck it" I had much much more doubt than I expressed, but w/e.

Yeah, the whole idea of coming up with reads before giving analysis and then using the analysis to support it thing is probably why it came off fake to so many people. When you do that, you start saying things you don't actually believe. And when there's one hole that disproves your logic (plugging in Newbie in my place eliminated the whole Trow/shadow/Egg connection) and you keep arguing for it, it just looks bad. When you have doubts, expressing them isn't always bad. And when you do an analysis, be open to the idea you were wrong when you started. Your overall play in the first two day was fine other than your reads. It's when you didn't seem to care that your whole case was confirmation bias where things fell apart.

did we get a scum qt?

We all agreed in there that it can be opened. Just waiting on Marcell I think.

[MrTrow]

droog:
Are you suggesting i should replace the quotes with corresponding links?
or spread it out over a multipost?

I'm also not clear on what 'walls in the usual sense' refers to here.

[droog]

multipost might help
thats what everyone is used to here

by 'walls in the usual sense'
i mean big mastin-style wallposts
which youre not doing

but there's something about them that's still too large
i wouldnt use more than 2 quotes in most posts
links might help

[MrTrow]

egg:
The number of times i implied pip might be scum, would indeed be substantial. (as i fully stand by the 'i see no town reason to not answer these questions, which (as long as they remain unanswered) are holes in their case and every single time they refuse to answer, implies they are aware of this fact, while continuing to push it' (or in short, the difference between a bad case and a fake one) )
But i still feel i held back a lot where you were involved. I'm still curious what you would come up with, for instances of ME implying YOU were scum.
Other than defending karnage by means of misrepresentation and twisting my 'can you explain how pips case can be anything other than fake, because they refuse'-question into an accusation. (because that was a genuine question, true it would not have surprised me to receive an answer that would hint at the entire defense being fake as well, but i was 'genuinely interested in the answers'), there might have been an instance (maybe 2) of 'aren't you reading or are you mudslinging' (which in the karnage-case 'revotes are(n't) inherently anti-town' or specifically the 'not a new read'-counter, when the other examples were obviously not new either(showing i didn't intent to claim they were new), i fully stand by)

I mean, if i recall correctly, i didn't even imply ill-intent when you twisted my 3-line-story about why ' 'fake outrage at being bussed' might be a good scum tactic', into a call to lynch titus(who was considered top-townread by most), for 2 consecutive posts (which took A LOT of constraint btw, as it did really feel you were fishing for that remark, just to add it to exactly this list (covered by the whole 'aware bias' thing) )

[MrTrow]

@droog:
thanks '

i'll look up mastin.

And i'll consider the multiposts
I really dislike them though.
As here: a post per person addressed, there i can see the benefit of.
But arbitrary padding the post-count *shudder*, feels like 'trying to appear more active'

i'll try to pull the 'replace with links'-approach even further, but they didn't seem to do much this game

[droog]

@droog:
thanks '

i'll look up mastin.

And i'll consider the multiposts
I really dislike them though.
As here: a post per person addressed, there i can see the benefit of.
But arbitrary padding the post-count *shudder*, feels like 'trying to appear more active'

i'll try to pull the 'replace with links'-approach even further, but they didn't seem to do much this game

this is already a lot easier to read
"@droog" is better than quoting what i said
i dont really have specific things beyond that
but readability really helps

you really dont need mastin-style walls often
once-twice a game is the limit

[Egg]

I think quotes are more readable than spamming to be honest. I see a whole page of all one person and put off the whole game for a day.

Trow, a lot of your posts where you were argumentitive had points that only made sense if you were scumreading me. Even if you didn't mean it, that's how it comes off. I feel like I remember things to the effect of "I can't see town doing this". Let me see if I can find one on a quick glance:

Still not sold on

the 'sees an interpretation that doesn't make sense, decides not to consider having misread' (in a post that contains another admission of misreading, no less)

^Like this. If you aren't sold, you obviously think I'm not being truthful which implies a scum read. Really though, this was where I was doing my 16 hour work days and had trouble remembering what we were even arguing about. That can happen when I'm town too.

I mean, if i recall correctly, i didn't even imply ill-intent when you twisted my 3-line-story about why ' 'fake outrage at being bussed' might be a good scum tactic', into a call to lynch titus(who was considered top-townread by most

Actually, I really did read that as you scumreading Titus.

i'll try to pull the 'replace with links'-approach even further, but they didn't seem to do much this game

Yeah, I don't even open links. It's annoying to navigate away from the page I'm on or to open a new tab so I just skip over links. And yellow text, but that's another issue entirely lol.

[Egg]

For what it's worth, I actually like droog's enter key fetish as a posting style. I used to do that myself but it annoyed people for whatever reason...

[Marcrell]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=64759

Scum thread.

[Jeanne11]

I feel bad for murdering Jeanne but the last thing we needed was a fresh pair of eyes to this game. Plus, I'd feel really bad for manipulating her as scum.

About that, I actually considered arming myself on that night :3

[Mathilda]

Other than defending karnage by means of misrepresentation and twisting my

'can you explain how pips case can be anything other than fake, because they refuse'

-question into an accusation. (because that was a genuine question, true it would not have surprised me to receive an answer that would hint at the entire defense being fake as well, but i was

'genuinely interested in the answers'

), there might have been an instance (maybe 2) of

'aren't you reading or are you mudslinging'

(which in the karnage-case

'revotes are(n't) inherently anti-town'

or specifically the

'not a new read'

-counter, when the other examples were obviously not new either(showing i didn't intent to claim they were new), i fully stand by)

I mean, if i recall correctly, i didn't even imply ill-intent when you twisted my 3-line-story about why

'

'fake outrage at being bussed'

might be a good scum tactic'

, into a call to lynch titus(who was considered top-townread by most), for 2 consecutive posts (which took A LOT of constraint btw, as it did really feel you were fishing for that remark, just to add it to exactly this list (covered by the whole 'aware bias' thing) )

As here: a post per person addressed, there i can see the benefit of.
But arbitrary padding the post-count *shudder*, feels like

'trying to appear more active'

i'll try to pull the

'replace with links'

-approach even further, but they didn't seem to do much this game

One thing that I found difficult to follow was your use of pasting in whole sentences but putting them in quotes and referring them as adjectives. If you could stop that then it would help tremendously. Regardless of your win condition, it helps you to communicate as clearly and effectively as possible so people can consider what you are saying rather than how you are saying it.

Nesting parentheses or quotes also makes things far more difficult to parse.

[Titus]

I feel bad for murdering Jeanne but the last thing we needed was a fresh pair of eyes to this game. Plus, I'd feel really bad for manipulating her as scum.

About that, I actually considered arming myself on that night :3

It was a total risk. My team was so risk averse they killed no one. We killed you to maintain the game state. RC slot was then safe to kill thanks to his slip.

[RadiantCowbells]

Wasn't a slip. we hadn't used the arming at the time.

[MrTrow]

@Mathilda:
Thanks, that's definitely a tip i can work with.
(though i couldn't, on the spot, rework those posts)

I feel bad for murdering Jeanne but the last thing we needed was a fresh pair of eyes to this game. Plus, I'd feel really bad for manipulating her as scum.

About that, I actually considered arming myself on that night :3

So would i. (at least consider)
If it wasn't for the fishing-potential(intended or otherwise) regarding who had armed themselves already, i might have argued against eggs assumption (scum thought) you wouldn't.

^Like this.

Fair enough.

[MrTrow]

Just read the qt, good stuff.
I completely missed the fact you had daytalk
And egg, you trying to piss me off, into pissing you off. Interesting. (It surely explains asking 'no hard feelings?' )

Titus, the Jeanne-kill as a neon-sign on you:
Not seeing it, though to be honest, i was under the illusion you replaced in at daystart:
- Titus the safer kill
- Jeanne better to hinder a fresh perspective.
Given how slow the replacements were going (i believe there were 20+ outstanding replacements when i got in),
During the entire night it seemed plausible the town would have already set its course for the day, maybe even ended it (given the pending newbie-quick-lynch) before that replacement was found

[Titus]

Just read the qt, good stuff.
I completely missed the fact you had daytalk
And egg, you trying to piss me off, into pissing you off. Interesting. (It surely explains asking 'no hard feelings?' )

Titus, the Jeanne-kill as a neon-sign on you:
Not seeing it, though to be honest, i was under the illusion you replaced in at daystart:
- Titus the safer kill
- Jeanne better to hinder a fresh perspective.
Given how slow the replacements were going (i believe there were 20+ outstanding replacements when i got in),
During the entire night it seemed plausible the town would have already set its course for the day, maybe even ended it (given the pending newbie-quick-lynch) before that replacement was found

Yeah, I debated letting Jeanne see my scumgame but I figured it best not to. For Gamestate and for jeanne as a player. I was rather vicious (but not insulting) the last time I drew scum opposite Jeanne.