Open 635 - JK9++ (Game Over)

[Frozen Angel]

I'm always around Ranger

always

[mhsmith0]

It's weird seeing a page top without

[Frozen Angel]

is still sleeping

[ConManMick]

Cheers Ranger. This was the first game id played in a few months, and i like to try out different approaches to games so I dont have any consistent meta. Unfortunately I think it came across as rsther apathetic here.

[Thor665]

Well, I tried. Gg all.

I think (besides myself, natch ) that you were the most pro-town effort in the game.

Yeah, I never would've guessed Ranger being scum even if scum didn't claim PR.

Why not though? He really wasn't doing anything at all - lack of scum actions is a different reality than lack of any actions.

Thor was also pretty accurate, too.

I just couldn't get anyone to buy into my points though - and I'm frustrated as to why.

If anyone has any feedback for why, when I was pointing out MULTIPLE times RC was straight up lying and no one cared, I'd love some advice on how to convey that better.

Ranger, I'd say you looked VERY town in this game. Sold that doc claim hard from moment one. As someone whose wolf game is just bad (I can make analysis but I suck at faking it), I was really impressed.

He didn't hard sell the Doc claim though - don't pay attention to words, pay attention to votes.
Votes matter. Words are air.

It's also how Anarchy Shard got lynched. (I don't think there was a legitimate case there.)

I agree with this, he was lynched for being a lurksack.
He *deserved* to be lynched for being a lurk sack, but that was the beginning and end of the case to be certain.

Hey Thor, maybe we can lose a few more games together. What do you say

The bad news it was a Mafia sweep, the good news is I didnt fuck up lylo hammer this time. Ups and downs I guess

As long as I can look accurate as hell and whine about them post game, sure

Oh man I think I'm just going to give up trying to read RC. At least I didn't lose to Thor.

The tunnel.
Stahp.

I would have known Strongman, thus scum in PRs thus lynch RC. Then Ranger lynched.

That would have been much more helpful than the SirCakez sit - though I admit I think that still would have been an issue from you, it was my perception that I half sold you on my case but you were enough in the tunnel and in fear of 3VT scum that you refused to budge. Do you think a Strongman confirm would have really shifted you?

Also, as a point of personal curiosity - what was up with refusing to claim Doc protects? I don't get how you think that becomes scum beneficial - clarify?

I highly doubt RC, Ranger and FA all would have been lynched before Thor and I anyway.
Don't be so overconfident in your read on me next time tho please.

Dude, if you would have done anything protown...anything at all...

That's unfair of Cakez - he was scummy in a general sense, but his votes and actions were not clear scum intent. Look at my confusion between him and FA as the last scum. He wasn't screaming pro town, but he also wasn't pro scum, your case on him was very loosely existent and not worth the weight you were putting behind it. I probably had some help in actually being amongst the VTs, but at the same time the case was soft, you had to know it was soft, it kept soft shifting each day to keep him scum but change his supposed strategy - that is the sign of a soft case, and a warning sign of tunnel.

[Titus]

@Thor, At least in the time being. The links between Cakey and you would be false. A Strongman requires scum in the PTs. Thus Ranger + RC. No other combination possible. I might have changed my mind.

Claiming Doc heals, unless forced, is bad. Doc healing is a game of wifom. If scum cannot figure out what you did, it's harder to predict your next move.

[Thor665]

Claiming Doc heals, unless forced, is bad. Doc healing is a game of wifom. If scum cannot figure out what you did, it's harder to predict your next move.

But if you think the concept is WIFOM - isn't providing them info just more ways to stress the WIFOM?
They will either have WIFOM or not, yeah?

[Titus]

Claiming Doc heals, unless forced, is bad. Doc healing is a game of wifom. If scum cannot figure out what you did, it's harder to predict your next move.

But if you think the concept is WIFOM - isn't providing them info just more ways to stress the WIFOM?
They will either have WIFOM or not, yeah?

The more data points people have, the easier things are to predict.

[Thor665]

I see the argument I suppose, but I think info aids scumhunting to a degree that outweighs the statistical shift penalty to scum does in that situation.

[mhsmith0]

Well, I tried. Gg all.

I think (besides myself, natch ) that you were the most pro-town effort in the game.

Like I said, I tried. With more time I might have been able to make a better RC case, but alas. Actually, I would have been able to, because on 2nd reading, the whole "let's out all the PR's because I have a 'result' " bit really stood out to me. But by the time I hit that point, it was nearly midnight, both figuratively and literally.

Yeah, I never would've guessed Ranger being scum even if scum didn't claim PR.

Why not though? He really wasn't doing anything at all - lack of scum actions is a different reality than lack of any actions.

Ranger seemed like she was doing stuff. I don't think it was super obvious that she wasn't doing stuff.

Thor was also pretty accurate, too.

I just couldn't get anyone to buy into my points though - and I'm frustrated as to why.

If anyone has any feedback for why, when I was pointing out MULTIPLE times RC was straight up lying and no one cared, I'd love some advice on how to convey that better.

On my end, it's kinda hard to really figure out a "you're lying. no, YOU'RE lying" type situation. Really digging into Thor vs RC was on my to do list, but wasn't priority #1. More time would have been helpful. FWIW, I was also very much playing with the mental paradigm of a RC-Titus-Thor team (in which case Titus vs Thor and RC vs Thor were both just theater), and I'd never really gotten to the point where I could dismiss that possibility. I mean, I know you say you don't bus/distance, but you came in when Titus and Thor are both under fire, and in that case some fake fighting makes a lot of sense.

Ranger, I'd say you looked VERY town in this game. Sold that doc claim hard from moment one. As someone whose wolf game is just bad (I can make analysis but I suck at faking it), I was really impressed.

He didn't hard sell the Doc claim though - don't pay attention to words, pay attention to votes.
Votes matter. Words are air.

Yes and no. I kinda think that both matter. Also, on D2 it felt like Titus was almost completely uninterested in engaging Ranger's accusations, which in my mind looked really suspicious. Night actions (IMO) pointed a bit more to RC-Ranger than RC-Titus, but behaviorally I felt that RC-Titus felt a bit more (except for the part about FA REALLY wanting to make sure I was still considering RC-Titus, and RC aggressively town-reading FA for reasons that I didn't understand at all, which while possibly consistent with RC-Titus-FA, seemed more consistent with RC-Ranger-FA).

It's also how Anarchy Shard got lynched. (I don't think there was a legitimate case there.)

I agree with this, he was lynched for being a lurksack.
He *deserved* to be lynched for being a lurk sack, but that was the beginning and end of the case to be certain.

Meh. Honestly I think the AS case was the sketchiest among the three. And lo and behold, all three mafia were on it, and two of them were there first and driving it.

Hey Thor, maybe we can lose a few more games together. What do you say

The bad news it was a Mafia sweep, the good news is I didnt fuck up lylo hammer this time. Ups and downs I guess

As long as I can look accurate as hell and whine about them post game, sure

FWIW, part of me was actually kinda hoping that somehow I could get RC lynched and then see if he'd join the "Smith caught me for all the wrong reasons" club (current membership: 1 )

[Postie]

I just couldn't get anyone to buy into my points though - and I'm frustrated as to why.

If anyone has any feedback for why, when I was pointing out MULTIPLE times RC was straight up lying and no one cared, I'd love some advice on how to convey that better.

Oh man I think I'm just going to give up trying to read RC. At least I didn't lose to Thor.

The tunnel.
Stahp.

I think a lot of what made me misread you so horrifically and caused me to skip over most of what was happening between you and RC was how unpleasant it was to interact with you. I just got so frustrated that I sort-of blocked you out.
I've been emotionally manipulated into imploding before (*coughRCcough*), so that probably tainted my view of what you were trying achieve as well.
I'm sorry I let my judgement get clouded like that.

[Thor665]

On my end, it's kinda hard to really figure out a "you're lying. no, YOU'RE lying" type situation. Really digging into Thor vs RC was on my to do list, but wasn't priority #1.

Why aren't those situations top priority for you? They always are for me - by the time people are both claiming the other is lying then either literally both of them are blinded, or one of them is lying scum. Looking it over and seeing how accurate one or the other is then becomes buko awesome scumhunting potential.

I'll try not to cry about the Titus/RC/Thor team.
Try.

I think a lot of what made me misread you so horrifically and caused me to skip over most of what was happening between you and RC was how unpleasant it was to interact with you. I just got so frustrated that I sort-of blocked you out.

People say this sort of thing to me a lot, and it's very frustrating to me, because when I ask "how was I unpleasant?" the answer generally seems to come down to 'tone' so I can never do anything about it. That said, I'll give it a whirl - can you describe why I was so unpleasant as to deserve blocking me out and leaving me as a scum read?

I never called you bad names.
I was always clear about why I disagreed with your reads.
I always answered any questions you asked me.

Can you give me anything concrete to adjust?

[Titus]

I see the argument I suppose, but I think info aids scumhunting to a degree that outweighs the statistical shift penalty to scum does in that situation.

From my perspective, the only players "scumreading" me were indeed scum so the perspective gained there was zero.

Noted on the tunnel thing.

[Postie]

People say this sort of thing to me a lot, and it's very frustrating to me, because when I ask "how was I unpleasant?" the answer generally seems to come down to 'tone' so I can never do anything about it. That said, I'll give it a whirl - can you describe why I was so unpleasant as to deserve blocking me out and leaving me as a scum read?

I never called you bad names.
I was always clear about why I disagreed with your reads.
I always answered any questions you asked me.

Can you give me anything concrete to adjust?

The best way I can explain it is that it felt like you were trying to antagonise me rather than work with me.

[mhsmith0]

Holy fuck the emotional manipulation is real.

MH, if you're actually town you're playing so bad that it's not even funny.

I can 100% confirm that emotional manipulation is within my town game

On my end, it's kinda hard to really figure out a "you're lying. no, YOU'RE lying" type situation. Really digging into Thor vs RC was on my to do list, but wasn't priority #1.

Why aren't those situations top priority for you? They always are for me - by the time people are both claiming the other is lying then either literally both of them are blinded, or one of them is lying scum. Looking it over and seeing how accurate one or the other is then becomes buko awesome scumhunting potential.

I'll try not to cry about the Titus/RC/Thor team.
Try.

I had limited time, and my priorities were, more or less...

1) Reading the thread for the first time

2) Thinking through the game state in general and trying to figure out useful insights to help narrow things down, which led to conclusions like:
- a Titus-Postie mafia team means that they made fundamentally TERRIBLE night action decisions, to the point where I just am not willing to seriously entertain that notion (and ftr I don't think any townies eliminated this possibility, unless I missed something)
- I think that a thor/fa/sc team is pretty unlikely, both due to night action decisions and because it would mean that the mafia team had basically played with no kind of active strategy at all (which seems odd as hell to me)
- therefore RC is very likely mafia

3) Trying to interact with Postie and convince her to take seriously the idea that RC could legitimately be mafia (which clearly I failed at, but I WAS trying)

4) Trying to refine my read with RC, and either get him to accidentally screw up and out himself, or through his actions convince me that someone about my conclusions in #2 were wrong, or get Ranger/Titus (since only one could be his partner) to either justify a RC town read or accidentally screw up and out themselves (and again, I was trying to get ANYONE to justify/explain a RC town read, and I was basically ignored, so *shrugs*)

I mean, I get that your back and forth with RC/Ranger was really interesting for you, but my first read of it didn't make it obvious who was lying, and in a situation where I was coming in as kind of a blank state, I can't focus on everything at once. If the day had gone longer, I'd have dug into it. But it didn't, and so I didn't.

PS A RC/Titus/Thor team made reasonable sense. It just did. You can say you wouldn't bus/distance all you want, but I don't know your meta, and you came into the game where you and Titus were both under pressure (so fighting made sense), and then in MYLO there's potentially a LOT of utility from engineering a fight between teammates so that when one goes down, the other gets town credit from the effort (and if it WAS an RC/Titus team, then having the buddy be one of the two slots gaining a wagon ALSO made reasonable sense). I took the possibility seriously. I SHOULD have taken the possibility seriously. On a more detailed review of the game, I might have changed my mind. But while I was still catching up and trying to understand the game state? No way do I chuck that possibility out the window off-hand.

[Thor665]

From my perspective, the only players "scumreading" me were indeed scum so the perspective gained there was zero.

Even if you wish to narrow it down to only a discussion about this game - there was Cakez and myself at that stage of the game, maybe some of the other guys too.

The best way I can explain it is that it felt like you were trying to antagonise me rather than work with me.

Yeah, but why did you think that? What did I do/say that felt like I was just trying to be mean for the sake of being mean?

PS A RC/Titus/Thor team made reasonable sense. It just did. You can say you wouldn't bus/distance all you want, but I don't know your meta, and you came into the game where you and Titus were both under pressure (so fighting made sense), and then in MYLO there's potentially a LOT of utility from engineering a fight between teammates so that when one goes down, the other gets town credit from the effort (and if it WAS an RC/Titus team, then having the buddy be one of the two slots gaining a wagon ALSO made reasonable sense). I took the possibility seriously. I SHOULD have taken the possibility seriously. On a more detailed review of the game, I might have changed my mind. But while I was still catching up and trying to understand the game state? No way do I chuck that possibility out the window off-hand.

You don't know my meta, but you presumed my meta all game would be to consistently bus, and also would blatantly lie about my meta and say I do the opposite?

Dude. I loved your reads otherwise, but...dude.

[Thor665]

The best way I can explain it is that it felt like you were trying to antagonise me rather than work with me.

Yeah, but why did you think that? What did I do/say that felt like I was just trying to be mean for the sake of being mean?

To maybe even ask this another way - what *should* I have said/done to convince you I was happy to work with you and/or wasn't just trolling?

[mhsmith0]

@thor

1) rc said his meta was X and then did y (and it was his pre game plan), so "going away from wolf meta" doesn't seem unreasonable.

2) it's more that "generic wolf X" in your shoes could have tried theater with buddies Titus and rc in your situation. And I don't know you well enough to separate you out from "generic wolf X". So it's not so much a presumption of your meta as it was taking seriously the possibility that you'd do that regardless of meta. If I presumed it was your meta and you clearly did it because you were wolf I'd have voted you. If I'd presumed it was clearly outside your wolf range I'd have voted rc. Instead I was undecided, which I think was fair in that situation. IIRC there was something or other you'd said that pinged me a bit too, but I don't recall what that was off the top of my head.

[Thor665]

1. I will agree some players do this, though I note that RC cited it as a 'cashing in' meaning that, odds are, it doesn't happen.

2. Scum "could" try anything under the sun. Heck, I've got a scum win wherein I openly claimed scum in thread and gamed the town. That said, there is the question of 'why'. You almost have a concept as to why I might choose to bus Titus like I did - you have offered nothing for the RC bus afterwards. At that point it's an unsupported theory, and examing the meta is a valid tool to assess its likelihood.

[Thor665]

Also, I mean, while we're at it I have literally never done any of the following;

1. Lied about my meta.
2. Changed my meta to net a win.

And I'm not known for either of those things.
Which means dumb things get picked up as social consciousness meta.
But you can research my opinion of bussing.
And if you are afraid of a scum team involving Thor doing nothing but bussing for three straight phases - maybe that's a good use of time to check on in some way, yeah?

[mhsmith0]

Oh I definitely agree that thinking deeper about all of these things was worthwhile, and I'd have done them given more time. But sorting the PR slots directly was a higher priority item for me, and I do think I'd spent my time productively in that area. It kinda sounds like you're thinking I should have dismissed the possibility of you as mafia out of hand, or that sorting you specifically should have been my highest priority. I'm not sure I really agree on either front.

From my perspective, coming in (after understanding the setup and the claims made) there were 10 mechanically possible mafia teams:
- RC/Ranger/x (3 x's)
- RC/Titus/x (3 x's)
- Titus/Postie/x (3 x's)
- FA/SC/Thor

From my perspective, sorting the "key" PR slots (Titus and RC) was the biggest priority, and I really do think it should have been. And I did work pretty hard at sorting them, to the point where I partially cleared Titus due to eliminating Postie as a plausible mafia, and then at that point I was focused pretty hard on RC. I was focused on different things than you were, but I was still working pretty hard at sorting the slot, and do think I'd have gotten a more refined answer given enough time (again, notably the day 3 "hey everyone let's PR claim" bit stuck out to me on the 2nd read, and I think questioning around that incident might have borne fruit).

PS The thing is, I don't know your meta. Doing a useful meta dive (ESPECIALLY a dive of your tendencies as mafia) would be a potentially timely exercise, and as far as I'm concerned is a "I'll do it if I have to" sort of thing. Remember, the game ended six RL days after I subbed in, and three of those the site was down. Given that I only had three RL days (and that I didn't know that I only had three days), my de-prioritizing the sorting of your slot to some point later in the game day seemed entirely reasonable in my book.

PPS @Titus/Postie: One thing I can say that in fairness I didn't appreciate was you guys voting pretty early in the day. RC/Ranger did it because they were mafia and playing to their wincon. But it would have been nice for you guys to wait. I legitimately wasn't fully caught up (had done one read-through, and thought through some issues, but had had a lot left to consider) and I think it would have been a lot fairer to me, and more respectful of the time I'd already invested into the game, to wait and at least give me more of a chance to change your guys minds. I definitely empathize with the idea that it's annoying to wait on a sub when you feel comfortable with your understanding of the game state, and I definitely empathize with the idea that the game state had already gone on for a while and you were ready for it to be over with, but I don't think it's fair to the sub who did come in (and who at least might be town) to quick vote in that situation.

[mhsmith0]

edit: actually it was basically 5 days (plus a few hours), with the site being down for 3 of them.

[Thor665]

I voted early on scum - no apologies.

[Postie]

The best way I can explain it is that it felt like you were trying to antagonise me rather than work with me.

Yeah, but why did you think that? What did I do/say that felt like I was just trying to be mean for the sake of being mean?

To maybe even ask this another way - what *should* I have said/done to convince you I was happy to work with you and/or wasn't just trolling?

The way you were speaking to me just kinda gave off "lol you are terrible" vibes, which made me not want to work with you because it didn't feel like you wanted to work with

me

. I pointed out an example of you being condescending during the game that frustrated me, so like, try not to do that kind of thing.
I'm not sure if that helps or if I'm explaining myself very well but those are my thoughts. ^^"

[mhsmith0]

I voted early on scum - no apologies.

I think that's fair. FWIW, on my end I FoS'd on mafia early, and then held my vote while trying (futilely) to fully game solve and give myself enough time to do so. Alas. I accept this one as a loss on my record, but I'm not really sure what I could have done differently to actually swing the result *shrugs*