Open 669 - Nightless Vengeful Mayhem [Game Over]


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Post Post #25 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:45 am

Post by karnos »



We now have 11/12 confirmed, the game may proceed.

Day 1 begins.

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch, or 6 to force a no-lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2017-01-27 08:45:01)

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Post Post #26 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:36 am

Post by Hawk »

Ola everybody. Also Karnos I thought I replied with confirm my bad.

VOTE: Revan

I think this misspelled name is a distraction placed by scum :p
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Post Post #27 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:55 am

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

So this game I think the only player on the list I have played with is havingfitz (aside from not knowing the hidden heads of Ultimate Despair are) so this should be interesting from that standpoint.

UD
– why are you signing posts when you are supposed to be a hidden hydra? I mean if you specifically aren’t outing your heads you should be specifically treated as if you are a single player.

Hawk
– Nothing to say about page 1? Just because it was pre-game doesn’t mean it was content free.

--

VOTE: Doomfeathers

On a page 2 basis my vote was going to go to either wg or Doom.

Doom got my vote for . It’s a suspect post coming on the heels of . They are trying to sell two different points of view in too short a time period.

9 says “I am on the ball and am paying attention to the rules” specifically be related to votes being symbolic at that point.

14 on the other hand is peddling both “I’m a newb and don’t get the mechanics” and “I’m not Mafia guys”, the second of which Ultimate picked up on. I’ve seen newer players drop the “I don’t understand the set-up so I’m Town” tell before in other Open set-ups like Jungle Republic so I probably would have voted on that basis alone for early game.

But Doom has enough games on site to understand how the Mafia are going to get the kills they need – mislynches. Basis Mafia101. So the dueling subtext shown of his posts strike me as someone uncomfortable with the early game and looking for footing to get comfortable. The "This is OMGUS" joke is another element I think shows him working to get footing.

Wg would have gotten my vote for but Doom was a stronger vote for this early.

--
In post 23, wgeurts wrote:I've played nightless before, scum wins only if the town becomes apathetic. Don't spam but don't disappear or lurk either.
Actually Scum wins when they are able to earn Town reads in Nightless games since there is no pressure (or in this case significantly lower pressure due to the 2 Daykills) to have to justify why they are so Town read and still alive. With posts like this which on the surface look Pro-Town but mainly empty of actual helpful content.

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Post Post #28 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:44 am

Post by Hawk »

Not particularly Magna. Not at this time anyway. It's already been pointed out and noted. I neither like nor dislike what Doom said and would rather see other peoples reactions and reasoning before anything else because to me it just reads rather Null... I don't feel like reading into it too much because you get into a WIFOM argument about why he would say this.

No need to delve that deeply into a person's statement so early. Honestly the heavy evaluation of P1 by you makes me actually think you're trying too hard if you want to know honestly. But I've never played nightless so it may just be the setup changing the pace of the game.
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Post Post #29 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:46 am

Post by doomfeathers »

In post 14, doomfeathers wrote:I'm a little confused about the mechanics. How do the Mafia kill more than two people with no night phase and only two daykills?
Not knowing the rules didn't affect my PM, and getting a sum role wouldn't have explained them to me. This doesn't count as (real or faked) evidence of townishness. Sorry. (Maybe I should have asked somebody about gameplay first, but I figured this was a good place to find out.)

The reason I'm confused is that, without a nightkill, a game ending with one scum and one townie left alive would never end because lynching is the only means of death at that point (assuming scum have used both their kills). How is this situation resolved?
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Post Post #30 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:46 am

Post by doomfeathers »

*scum role
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Post Post #31 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:51 am

Post by Revan »

VOTE: Hawk

My name isn't misspelled.
"Savior, conqueror, hero, villain. You are all things, Revan… and yet you are nothing. In the end, you belong to neither the light nor the darkness. You will forever stand alone."
―Darth Malak to Revan
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Post Post #32 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:57 am

Post by wgeurts »

I misread some stuff earlier, ignore that post I made on ultimate completely as I hadn't seen that he was pointing out Doom's behaviour. If anything I'd call that ever so slightly town, what I said earlier is wrong.

@Magna
Doom's post doesn't read to me the same way you're stating it does to you. The mod did message us all that our votes don't count yet, but didn't send us each the setup. He didn't need to know the rules to be able to know the former, which weakens what you're saying. Post is worse, but can also come from town especially considering he is fairly new.

Also what you say about winning town reads is true, however it's risky to go for too much town credit early on as the lack of day-kill on them stands out. There's always the element of WiFoM involved though. It also works as a double-edged sword, if the town can form a bloc then they're able to put a lot of pressure on scum as well.
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Post Post #33 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:02 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 28, Hawk wrote:Not particularly Magna. Not at this time anyway. It's already been pointed out and noted. I neither like nor dislike what Doom said and would rather see other peoples reactions and reasoning before anything else because to me it just reads rather Null... I don't feel like reading into it too much because you get into a WIFOM argument about why he would say this.

No need to delve that deeply into a person's statement so early. Honestly the heavy evaluation of P1 by you makes me actually think you're trying too hard if you want to know honestly. But I've never played nightless so it may just be the setup changing the pace of the game.
Isn't delving into people's statements what gets the ball rolling? Pressure early on is good. Magna's post isn't town or scum I'd say right now, as town have just as much incentive to try and create content as scum do. If anything, scum may let the game go it's own way for a while and not intervene as to avoid attention and let the town go on a bit of a wild-goose chase. This is so in every game, not specifically this setup only.
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Post Post #34 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:04 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 29, doomfeathers wrote:
In post 14, doomfeathers wrote:I'm a little confused about the mechanics. How do the Mafia kill more than two people with no night phase and only two daykills?
Not knowing the rules didn't affect my PM, and getting a sum role wouldn't have explained them to me. This doesn't count as (real or faked) evidence of townishness. Sorry. (Maybe I should have asked somebody about gameplay first, but I figured this was a good place to find out.)

The reason I'm confused is that, without a nightkill, a game ending with one scum and one townie left alive would never end because lynching is the only means of death at that point (assuming scum have used both their kills). How is this situation resolved?
Your behaviour however does indicate what your role PM may contain. It can be used as a tell, and saying otherwise is wrong.

A 1 on 1 situation counts as scum-win regardless.
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Post Post #35 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:05 am

Post by wgeurts »

VOTE: Hawk
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Post Post #36 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:14 am

Post by Hawk »

In post 31, Revan wrote:VOTE: Hawk

My name isn't misspelled.
OMGUS look at this scum right here!!

That asside is it a reference to someone is the old Extended universe? I like Star Wars but never really got into the books.
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Post Post #37 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:25 am

Post by doomfeathers »

In post 24, Friend Computer wrote:
Lynch: Ultimate Despair


@Doomfeathers:
LYNCH.
I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Are you wanting to lynch me and Ultimate Despair, or are you voting for Ultimate Despair and asking me to join you?
In post 23, wgeurts wrote:I've played nightless before, scum wins only if the town becomes apathetic. Don't spam but don't disappear or lurk either.
In post 27, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Actually Scum wins when they are able to earn Town reads in Nightless games since there is no pressure (or in this case significantly lower pressure due to the 2 Daykills) to have to justify why they are so Town read and still alive.
In post 32, wgeurts wrote:Also what you say about winning town reads is true, however it's risky to go for too much town credit early on as the lack of day-kill on them stands out. There's always the element of WiFoM involved though. It also works as a double-edged sword, if the town can form a bloc then they're able to put a lot of pressure on scum as well.
Why are you guys so interested in scum's best play? To me, this looks like a great way to appear townie by refuge in audacity. Also, wgeurts seems to be hinting that we should form a bloc, which makes me suspicious.

VOTE: wgeurts

That said, thanks! I get how the game works now.
Hawk wrote:
In post 31, Revan wrote:VOTE: Hawk

My name isn't misspelled.
OMGUS look at this scum right here!!

That asside is it a reference to someone is the old Extended universe? I like Star Wars but never really got into the books.
This is completely irrelevant to the game. It reads to me as if you're trying to pick an argument with someone to waste game time by purposely misspelling words in an argument about spelling and asking purposeless questions that could be answered with five seconds on Google. Why are you acting as if it's still RVS?

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Post Post #38 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:33 am

Post by Hawk »

In post 33, wgeurts wrote:
In post 28, Hawk wrote:Not particularly Magna. Not at this time anyway. It's already been pointed out and noted. I neither like nor dislike what Doom said and would rather see other peoples reactions and reasoning before anything else because to me it just reads rather Null... I don't feel like reading into it too much because you get into a WIFOM argument about why he would say this.

No need to delve that deeply into a person's statement so early. Honestly the heavy evaluation of P1 by you makes me actually think you're trying too hard if you want to know honestly. But I've never played nightless so it may just be the setup changing the pace of the game.
Isn't delving into people's statements what gets the ball rolling? Pressure early on is good. Magna's post isn't town or scum I'd say right now, as town have just as much incentive to try and create content as scum do. If anything, scum may let the game go it's own way for a while and not intervene as to avoid attention and let the town go on a bit of a wild-goose chase. This is so in every game, not specifically this setup only.
Not nesscarily. Shady sheep votes. Lack of creation of content and discussion from person, and fast RVS wagons all can naturally get the ball rolling. Delving deeply into the psychology of two posts made by one person to me is trying to hard to move the game forward earlier. Not to say that I don't appreciate getting out of RVS quickly I just don't see the point of reading so deeply so early on. That's how you create cognitive dissonance.

I'm not saying what Magna has done is scummy I just don't agree with that playstyle. Trying hard to come up and formulate good reads from little content is good. Trying so hard when there's literally one page is a good receipe for tunneling or being less open to other ideas.

As for the pace of the game and nightless I purely meant that perhaps this format benefits town pressuring quickly and early so long as we don't become tunneled. I don't know since I've never played or watched night less play out and am purely speaking figuratively. Otherwise I might actually read what Magna was doing one way or the other. Right now just about everyone is still Null for me.

Pedit:

I honestly don't feel like we are out of RVS... all of this content you guys think is here feels forced and easily could be fluff. Like I said Null feels all around. Plus I like engaging people rather than just googling it. Do you think Revan voted me out of RVS? I don't think so. If he did he better speak now. Ignore shit that doesn't partake to the game if it's one damn post if it bothers you that much.
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Post Post #39 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:43 am

Post by wgeurts »

Doom, figuring out scum's best play is what town is meant to do. Like chess, you should always be predicting what they're going to do. Considering what's town and scum are likely to do, and reading posts to see which motivation makes more sense, is what we call scum-hunting. It's very hard to catch scum if you don't spend time thinking about what scum do, they're not going to hand themselves over on a platter. Me posting on it means everyone can take it into consideration. It's also not so that I've only posted game theory, you're leaving part of my posts untouched.

Also, hell yes we should form a town bloc, that's literally what we should be aiming for. Right now though? Definitely not, and I've never said so. That happens later game, once reads are more established, people have flipped, and one or two scum shots have gone off. How is this suspicious? You can't just call things suspicious without explaining why.

There's also a large gap between fluff-posting and trying to intentionally pick an argument to distract the town.

A. That's a stretch as really nobody's going to be distracted by a side-discussion about someone's username. Thus no time is wasted. Scum know this if they're decent at least.

B. Why would scum do that so early on? Stalling and redirecting attention is best done mid-late day when the deadline draws near or a scum-partner is in danger. Neither of those conditions have been met yet.

C. It is still RVS, notice how people don't have firm reads and are randomly voting?

VOTE: Doom

Please reconsider and/or explain yourself.
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Post Post #40 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:49 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 38, Hawk wrote:
In post 33, wgeurts wrote:
In post 28, Hawk wrote:Not particularly Magna. Not at this time anyway. It's already been pointed out and noted. I neither like nor dislike what Doom said and would rather see other peoples reactions and reasoning before anything else because to me it just reads rather Null... I don't feel like reading into it too much because you get into a WIFOM argument about why he would say this.

No need to delve that deeply into a person's statement so early. Honestly the heavy evaluation of P1 by you makes me actually think you're trying too hard if you want to know honestly. But I've never played nightless so it may just be the setup changing the pace of the game.
Isn't delving into people's statements what gets the ball rolling? Pressure early on is good. Magna's post isn't town or scum I'd say right now, as town have just as much incentive to try and create content as scum do. If anything, scum may let the game go it's own way for a while and not intervene as to avoid attention and let the town go on a bit of a wild-goose chase. This is so in every game, not specifically this setup only.
Not nesscarily. Shady sheep votes. Lack of creation of content and discussion from person, and fast RVS wagons all can naturally get the ball rolling. Delving deeply into the psychology of two posts made by one person to me is trying to hard to move the game forward earlier. Not to say that I don't appreciate getting out of RVS quickly I just don't see the point of reading so deeply so early on. That's how you create cognitive dissonance.

I'm not saying what Magna has done is scummy I just don't agree with that playstyle. Trying hard to come up and formulate good reads from little content is good. Trying so hard when there's literally one page is a good receipe for tunneling or being less open to other ideas.

As for the pace of the game and nightless I purely meant that perhaps this format benefits town pressuring quickly and early so long as we don't become tunneled. I don't know since I've never played or watched night less play out and am purely speaking figuratively. Otherwise I might actually read what Magna was doing one way or the other. Right now just about everyone is still Null for me.

Pedit:

I honestly don't feel like we are out of RVS... all of this content you guys think is here feels forced and easily could be fluff. Like I said Null feels all around. Plus I like engaging people rather than just googling it. Do you think Revan voted me out of RVS? I don't think so. If he did he better speak now. Ignore shit that doesn't partake to the game if it's one damn post if it bothers you that much.
Shady sheep votes are a result of someone pushing something, else there is nothing to sheep. The game wont ever gain content until a push is started, just chatting as if we're at a tea-party doesn't bring us anywhere. I fail to see how it's bad to try and speed up content creation, or just give your opinions if you've already got some. If anything it's beneficial.

Cog-Dis is something that happens regardless, that's something unrelated to RVS. See it this way: the sooner content is made the more time town has to discuss and figure things out. The more time we have the better we can do that. Tunnenling is a personal issue, not a result of RVS once again. If someone tunnels, they need to work on that personally. Orrrrrr.... you push them for it. Content=good. We're playing to win here.

You're not making much sense.
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Post Post #41 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:53 am

Post by wgeurts »

{wgeurts}
{UD}
{Magna}
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{Doom}
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i agree we should have a rule against wgeurts
" -
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"
let's have 2 rules against wgeurts
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Post Post #42 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:53 am

Post by Hawk »

@Doom

I'm on mobile so partial quotes is hard but I'm refering to post

We're interested in scum's best play because it also relates to towns optimal line. If scum wants to be townread then get on the block and stay undercover. With proper management of shots it seems like Scum can easily create a situation where they are firmly in the driver's seat. Looking for scum's motivation and game plan is always a good idea.

Pedit: I'll reexplain myself wgeurts cause I think we're on the same page but you're misinterpreting what I'm trying to say.
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Post Post #43 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:24 am

Post by Hawk »

Okay so let's address this point by point.

RVS and content creation
- Content is good
- Both scum and town should strive to generate content for discussion and to influence opinions and direct flow of the game.
- Content created early is often weak and often easily dismissed the later the game goes on.
- This is where I believe that delving too deep into creating content can be detrimental early on.
- Content created early on to formulate opinions or reads on people should be taken with a spoonful of salt and be easily considered null if something else arises.
- Do not confuse content with motivation. Just because content becomes moot or has been reasoned with does not mean motivation for posts should be ignored. Especially ones for creating content because towns motivations and scum's motivations are two entirely different things.

Cog-Dis and content creation.
- CogDis is inevitable but only for town, Scum have all information only live in one reality.
- Early reads and content can lead to people forming strong early camps or blocks.

Ex. Player C seems scummy to me for reasons. I like reasons Player B and D for player C being scummy. Player B and D are likely town.

This small example if one of the first trains of thoughts a player has during a game is very likely to influence how openly they can see the rest of the game. This is why I don't like delving super deeply into early game posts. Trying to discern why Doom would post two different ways as scum is leaving yourself open to forming a slight belief that he is scum based of that one reasoning meaning it'll be harder for you to shift opinion later and if he flips green cause you to feel that cognitive dissonance because you believed him to be scum. It can be very Jarring.

All this bring said my point and opinions are this.

Magna addressing Doom's posts with such heavy scrutiny even in RVS can cause cognitive dissonance if this is how we move the game forward. His motivations and weather it is good play are up for interpretation.

I think it's townish, I don't personally think it's the best style of play. He gets town points from me but I'm not really too interested in his content at this point.

Things I do like that have happened. Wgeurts questioning me and engaging me reads town. I like that he's trying to understand what I'm saying and holding me accountable. My thoughts aren't always super easy to follow.

Magna creating and pushing early content is good cause I like getting out of RVS. I don't nesscarily feel like the content is anything to write home about but it is what it is.

Dooms reactions to our posts have been interesting to say the least. I don't like them for the most part. He doesn't engage back with Magna or wgeurts instead chooses to explain his reasoning further when it really seems kinda bleh. The whole "Oi look at me being town and not understand the mechanics thing" is possible. Im more firmly in the idea that he could be scum because his accusation that were out of RVS and FoS on me. I also think that tells me his reaction might be slightly panic'd as he attempts to point attention elsewhere since he seems to think these votes are all out of RVS


So I'm fine placing my vote here for now.

VOTE: Doom
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Post Post #44 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:51 am

Post by Friend Computer »

To Doomfeathers, I was making a joke; I knew I couldn't vote, so I did that.

And I was answering your question.

Vote: Doomfeathers


For being confusing.
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Post Post #45 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:58 am

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

Dislike wgeurt’s .
In post 41, wgeurts wrote:{wgeurts}
{UD}
{Magna}
{Hawk}
{Doom}
Explain exactly your scale for this read-list.

--
In post 28, Hawk wrote:No need to delve that deeply into a person's statement so early.
In post 38, Hawk wrote:I'm not saying what Magna has done is scummy I just don't agree with that playstyle. Trying hard to come up and formulate good reads from little content is good. Trying so hard when there's literally one page is a good receipe for tunneling or being less open to other ideas.
So you do not believe players can be identified as scum from early statements?

--
In post 29, doomfeathers wrote:The reason I'm confused is that, without a nightkill, a game ending with one scum and one townie left alive would never end because lynching is the only means of death at that point (assuming scum have used both their kills). How is this situation resolved?
Did you read your role PM? Also did you read the provided link in the Open Queue describing the game? I know you referenced it specifically by number so you had to have seen it listed.
In post 37, doomfeathers wrote:Why are you guys so interested in scum's best play? To me, this looks like a great way to appear townie by refuge in audacity. Also, wgeurts seems to be hinting that we should form a bloc, which makes me suspicious.
Why do you think it isn’t in Town’s best interest to always be considering what scum’s best move is in an Open game like this?

Why does wgeurts mentioning a Townblock make you suspicious?
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Post Post #46 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:59 am

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

In post 44, Friend Computer wrote:To Doomfeathers, I was making a joke; I knew I couldn't vote, so I did that.

And I was answering your question.

Vote: Doomfeathers


For being confusing.
VOTE: Friend Computer
"I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"

Pretty much Geriatric game restricted at this point ... unless there are players I REALLY want to play with.
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Post Post #47 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:12 am

Post by Friend Computer »

Well, to be honest, we are kinda still in RVS...
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Post Post #48 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:21 am

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

In post 47, Friend Computer wrote:Well, to be honest, we are kinda still in RVS...
To loosely quote Homer Simpson ...

"Friend Computer RVS is make believe like elves, gremlins and eskimos"

Every post is a part of the game. Just because it is early it doesn't mean you are exempt from being assessed in what you post. In your case it was specifically a poorly justified hop onto the solidly leading wagon on Doom.

Thus you get my vote for it.

Problem?
"I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"

Pretty much Geriatric game restricted at this point ... unless there are players I REALLY want to play with.
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Post Post #49 (ISO) » Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:23 am

Post by Hawk »

@Magna.

Nope. At least not good reads. Good pressure can be formed, and it can start a wagon easily. How the person reacts and the posts after are more important than the first 2-4 posts a person makes. Yes hindsight being 20/20 after flips early posts can be indicative of scum but D1 no I don't think you can identify scum from their early posts unless they are almost out right saying they're scum.
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