Open 717: C9++ [GAME OVER:TOWN WINS]

[Ok Nyeo]

@ugly I did not give care about cop's guilty because I was already scumreading hoopla, you and kop

Ugly's cop play is not unbelievable after doctor's fakeclaim

This was to @una mb

[LaserGuy]

Thanks TGP for hosting. This was a fun, if unusual, game, and I am glad that you didn't ultimately reroll.

A few quick shout outs:
@Gamma: Wish I'd got more chance to play with you. D1 was kind of a gong show and then D2/D3 happened and you were dead Oh well, I'll look for you in another game sometime down the line
@Mylo: You really stepped up D4 and played very strong. It really helped having somebody that I could be confident that I could trust in LYLO and help validate my reads.
@Nyeo: You had some really impressive reads D4 especially... Apparently your super-secret spy training paid off
@Duck: That was a hell of a gambit you pulled. Thinking about all of the ways that it could have gone wrong (I was seriously stressed out waiting for hoopla's flip... he had been GF that would have been a disaster, though this wasn't super likely as I feel scum would have pushed you more if they knew the guilty was fake), I'm amazed how well it worked out. You definitely deserve a huge share of the credit for the win on this one.
@JDD: I get why you did what you did, even if I don't necessarily agree it was the right play at the time. If nothing else, I think scum was probably so eager to lynch you D2/D3 that they didn't really consider how it associated them and left them vulnerable.
@hoopla: You have a very impressive scum game. I don't know if we ever would have caught you had it not been for Duck's claim.
@Una: I don't really agree with your premises at all. We didn't post a lot of cases D4/D5, sure, but at least I had a very solid bead on you/Kop since early D4. I think probably more importantly, of me/Duck/Nyeo/Mylo, each of the four of us was reading at least two of the remaining three as Town, so the pool of potential mislynches was very, very small. D5 Duck was basically confirmed Town because there was no way that scum!Duck was bussing hoopla in that situation rather than allowing the lynch of Town!you or Town!Kop to happen. The same problem is true of pretty much any potential buddies that don't include scum!Kop. I think you're mistaking laziness for confidence here... as soon as hoopla was lynched the game was over.

[Mathdino]

how the fuck did town win this one what even

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Despite the crazy jester shot, you mean?

[UglyDuck]

I sincerely apologize to all of you. As a first time mod, there were some errors that I made. None of them were gamebreaking, but they may have decreased the overall playing experience. I ended up being incredibly busy and so didn't have the most timely votecount schedule, I forgot to send most people links to the dead thread and so got asked, I send prods like 12 hours after they were due (however to your congratulations there was only ONE PROD and NO REPLACEMENTS needed this game, which was incredible. In spite of my errors, I enjoyed watching this game, and I hope you enjoyed playing it too.

Was a fun game. Thanks very much for running it.

[UglyDuck]

Good hustle from Una, fighting all the way to the bitter end despite the pile of evidence mounting up. That's what I like to see in my scumteams.

for realz on this one though.

[UglyDuck]

Thanks TGP for hosting. This was a fun, if unusual, game, and I am glad that you didn't ultimately reroll.

@Duck: That was a hell of a gambit you pulled. Thinking about all of the ways that it could have gone wrong (

I was seriously stressed out waiting for hoopla's flip.

.. he had been GF that would have been a disaster, though this wasn't super likely as I feel scum would have pushed you more if they knew the guilty was fake), I'm amazed how well it worked out. You definitely deserve a huge share of the credit for the win on this one.

you think you were stressing out? haha I was like refreshing the page every 10 seconds but thank you. I thought the way you moved the votes around at the end of the D4 was excellently executed.

[Gamma Emerald]

also if the game was rerolled I would have probably laughed

[RedFlavor]

[Gamma Emerald]

also I've never lost C9++ and never won JK9++

[Mathdino]

also I've never lost C9++ and never won JK9++

that's because one is townsided and one is scumsided

[Mathdino]

cop/doc/roleblocker/innocent child vs godfather/roleblocker goon is utterly brutal

[Gamma Emerald]

also I've never lost C9++ and never won JK9++

that's because one is townsided and one is scumsided

I've played each as both alignments once though

[UnaBombaH]

#majorleaguesalt
dude you lost, hard. You got guiltied, then Ugly was able to find Hoopla out by association only, then instead of lynching the guilty which was already pretty proven by team blocking, town lynched the consensus scumread that was correct and fully nailed you as scum.

If you really think I'm ever salty because I lost - you really don't know me!
My frustrations come from the feeling that people are acting illogically and irrationally at times when it could be simply avoided by interacting/reading the game again with the attitude of trying to find new angles.
I think this game was a poor example of how mafia-games often work out.
Then again, I am probably alone with my thoughts here, so I'm not going to argue anyone. No need for that.

[UnaBombaH]

I think pretty much everyone here misinterpreted me, so maybe I'll just have to admit that I'm the weirdo here!
I do however stand behind my point: if a cop claims THE WAY THAT DUCK DID, in a 7p LyLo, and gives exactly one guilty - I'd be more suspicious of that than any of the townies this game were.
And even further: scum!Ugly DID have motivation to bus Hoopla there.
With the theoretical scumteam of Ugly-Kop-Hoopla, it would've been the absolutely correct move to claim a guilty on a buddy who had suddenly come under a lot of suspicion (along with Kop, making it 2/3 of his team).

No need to argue about it guys - I'm not discrediting anyone!
Just enjoy playing the way you do, and only engage me here if you wish to discuss gametheory with me!

[pinturicchio]

Well Una, maybe it will make you feel better to know that I kept reading the game and I would've tunneled the shit out of Ugly for his claim. Pretty convenient to claim that he investigated both dead guy huh

[Gamma Emerald]

I mean I think the worst part about Duck's claim was the truthful part: him targeting two dead townies.

[pinturicchio]

Exactly, and two townies that made no sense at all. Why targeting me instead of JJD? Why targeting Gamma instead of anyone else?

[Gamma Emerald]

I think my kill sorta made Hoopla obv tbh

[UnaBombaH]

Yes, indeed.
But like, I wanted to shake people for just going with it.
Think about it from this perspective too: Hoopla was barely on anyones scumlist before D4.
Ugly then claims cop, but withholds results.
Then AFTER Hoopla has more or less "suddenly" made the scumlist for a few players, Ugly declares he has a guilty on her.
It felt like NO ONE WAS QUESTIONING IT, but the result was so convenient, especially after the wait for results.
It also fit with scum!Ugly fakeclaiming EVEN with scumflip on Hoopla, because he would've made that claim to ensure their win D5 (rather than try to derail the wagon on Hoopla, and end up losing by association)

[UnaBombaH]

I think my kill sorta made Hoopla obv tbh

I did regret killing you at the start of D4 already..

[LaserGuy]

With the theoretical scumteam of Ugly-Kop-Hoopla, it would've been the absolutely correct move to claim a guilty on a buddy who had suddenly come under a lot of suspicion (along with Kop, making it 2/3 of his team).

But the correct play to counter this would have been to do exactly what we did... lynch hoopla and Kop, and scum!Duck's claim can be verified in 3p LYLO.

Anyway, hoopla also wasn't under that much suspicion prior to Duck's claim. The only person who had said they thought she was mafia was Ok Nyeo.

[UnaBombaH]

But the correct play to counter this would have been to do exactly what we did... lynch hoopla and Kop, and scum!Duck's claim can be verified in 3p LYLO.

But what happened to that when he reverted his guilty on Hoopla?

[UnaBombaH]

But to be fair: I did underestimate the value of solving the game through setup-mechanics myself.
Maybe it's just me not liking Open games then?

[UglyDuck]

Also this post: criticism is welcome, and I am not saying the choice I made was clear cut correct, but when I weighed my options I did not think it was a worse choice than any other.

N1 - Picked Pin based on a stupid reason. Specific details aside - I had only ever played one other game on this forum, and he was in it as town, and he was playing differently than in that game than this one.

N2 - I think I actually stated one of the reasons I picked Gamma, which was all the Town cred. I find a lot of the time early in game days that "one of the two inevitable obv!town's" ends up... not being town. Further than that, without pulling quotes and making this a novel, there were reasons surrounding the JDD claim stuff. She opens the day with voting for JDD (skummy hammer, play, etc). Then JDD gets run up, and she Unvotes. Then finishes on the Campbell wagon. She stated all of her logic in perfect form, but I couldn't get over the concept of "you thought he was skummy before, and now he is doing this thing and you have to make a choice, and you don't choose him" (if that makes sense). Also, while I get how the Hypoclaim idea could be a useful tactic for skum, shooting it down is skum/PR defense imo (Una and Gamma were to two to shred Neyo's idea). So yeah - long story short - a lot of my reads at that point had to do with her interactions, so clearing up skum vs town would of helped a lot.

N3 - Una. As mentioned above the response to Neyo hypoclaim. As well as I found they were trying to subtly repeatedly mention the concept of "the other cop CC" which, at the time, has plenty of merit. But then during the night, upon a re read, if he was skum and knew it was a TvT situation - changes things. Lastly, paragraphs of notes aside - I found what I thought to be a triangle of sorts between Gamma - Una - Hoopla. Obv, if Gamma is Town then it cannot be all skum. I was choosing between Hoopla or Una, and it came down to the above points to lean on Una.

Whatever, whether they be good or bad reasons, those are the reasons in a nutshell.

As for the fake claim bit - I mean... we were in like a really shitty spot when we woke up on D4. I had the result, and honestly I just considered going with revealing that and lets give it the honest shot, but one kill wasn't going to win the game.
Una's post game points about the logic in "I could of been doing it as bussing skum" are absolutely valid. I weighed that against the fact that it was 4v3 and if I was right on my Hoopla claim then there was a 50-50 chance that the skum team would KNOW I am lying. That was actually my deciding factor: I had the confirmed result already on Una, and I was fairly certain about Hoopla. So I essentially figured I could turn myself into a vig - if I was wrong... well that would suck, but I was more confident in my read on Hoopla then I was in us winning the game if I just outted Una right there. However, if I was right not only is there a scenario where Hoopla was RB/Goon and we get 2 Mafia, but there is the chance that Hoopla was GF - in which I assumed they would have to hammer after me and if we got through the day we would have the skum team based on interactions.
Either way - it created a situation where I had complete un-influenced control of an extra kill in a situation if we were misguided one time over three days at any point, we would lose.

I tend to type like I speak so if that is confusing I apologize.

FWIW - Una I seriously thought you played an excellent game all of the days - especially the final ones. GG.