Open 723: Purgatory! (Hell Phase 3)

[Hiraki]

VOTE: hiraki

If you're town ask the mod for spoilers and don't call me scum ever again.

[Alchemist21]

Gg everyone.

[Maruchan]

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viewtopic.php?f=90&t=76243&p=10179027#p10179027
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viewtopic.php?f=90&t=76211&p=10173533#p10173533

Hiraki - Thanks for continuing to replace into games. it's a great service to the site. Sorry you replaced into a losing position, even if you won the game.
NM - Once gain I dont understand how df you survive day one in any game, but you successfully hit the nail on the head through almost the entire game so well played.
RC - I'm unsure how much of your AtE and overbearing posturing was due to your personality and you literally felt every attack was a personal one against you and turned your game into !feelings, and how much of it was scum posturing, but this is the sitemeta that is why I haven't played a game in years, and am rethinking playing the one I am inned to right now. It has become site meta that "play to win" is more important than "play to have fun". These two should not be mutually exclusive, but they have become so. Playing to win as a bad guy means personal attacks, vendettas, lying about everything ,raging, etc. and it isn't just you, it's a large number of players. That isn't a game. That's a stress inducing mental gymnastics. For both the perpetrator and the receiver. If your play WASNT just scum!manipulation, then you are as hurt mentally and emotionally by it as much as others, because you didn't seem to have a fun game. Any single player playing to their wincon should not negate the rest of the players having fun. This is a game, not a competition to see who can win the most games or have the best win percentage as town or as scum. If players want that, go play comp on epicmafia. Dont turn every game into a personal issue because it will help you win.
ruru - i enjoyed your martyr posting, and appreciate you're sticking around.
everyone else - I hope you had fun!

[RadiantCowbells]

0% strategic.

Try playing when people regularly openly advocate policy lynching you like it's an appropriate thing to do and see how much fun you have.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't understand how it doesn't seem personal to you when someone is basically saying that you shouldnt be allowed to play the game because you're good as scum but you would understand it if you had lived it.

I should have just replaced out.

[Mathdino]

wait LOL

remind me to never play an open setup again

ever since the arrival of mathdino they've become awful

i had nothing to do with this setup's creation or execution

[AP]

GG.

@Maruchan: Thank you for modding
@ruru/teacher: Thank you for making the correct choice
@N_M: Lynching Alch with me would've end the game sooner

Oh, and..
@ruru: I

really

didn't notice Hiraki got lynched already. I was 1 page behind and didn't even notice that I was, so wasn't aware of any posts on the page where he got lynched.
You wanna know something even fannier? I wasn't keeping taps on the vote count for the first lynch of the game either.

Now go join 728 before it's full.

Lots of familiar faces already

[Maruchan]

Secret alt? People advocated policy lynched me for quite some time after some blunders I made

[AP]

wait LOL

remind me to never play an open setup again

ever since the arrival of mathdino they've become awful

i had nothing to do with this setup's creation or execution

Knock it off. You're still to blame. In fact, would you share with the class how the Hawaii Volcano erupted?

[Mathdino]

probably something to do with toxic fumes and hot air

[Hiraki]

No worries. It all made it up for being right in the end.

[AP]

probably something to do with toxic fumes and hot air

In other words.. a dinosaur farted!

[brassherald]

wait LOL

remind me to never play an open setup again

ever since the arrival of mathdino they've become awful

i had nothing to do with this setup's creation or execution

How dare you not get involved in making these setups. It's all your fault.

Also when you are involved, it is also all your fault. Everything is terrible forever because of you./s

[ruru]

I just stopped wanting to play the game when someone I had never played with started advocating policy lynching me D1.

I'm really sorry you felt that way

Not even mentioning the idea would be an insult to your scum game though honestly

NM - Once gain I dont understand how df you survive day one in any game

I guess UglyDuck being too scummy to policy lynch anyone d1 probably helped

Also people have said NM is readable, lolhammers are whatever in mountainous, and there were a couple of things later that made me think he was town although I really have no idea if they were valid reads or just luck

It has become site meta that "play to win" is more important than "play to have fun". These two should not be mutually exclusive, but they have become so. Playing to win as a bad guy means personal attacks, vendettas, lying about everything ,raging, etc. and it isn't just you, it's a large number of players. That isn't a game. That's a stress inducing

Okay, so I actually have a lot of thoughts on this

So I read RC's post and it made me want to stop playing the game and then I slept on it and I got over it, in large part because it could have just been him playing to win (apparently not actually the case, but still)

I've been flamed much worse outside of mafia and generally don't really care that much, the only reason I cared is that I actually really look up to RC's play so being flamed by him in particular felt pretty bad

Personally I do believe in playing to win. If I don't do something because I'm personally uncomfortable with it then I really think that's me being a suboptimal mafia player, not me being a morally awesome person. Like I'm pretty sure there are a lot of optimal scum plays for example that rely on yelling at people and making them feel terrible until they do what's asked, which is not at all my personality. I mean, I can be individually super toxic but in most situations more cold than hot and specifically trying to command groups of people to do things does not come naturally at all to me. If it came naturally to me, I would probably be trying to use it to my advantage in game.

I don't think it's unique to scum play either. The only thing that even caused me to be more assertive in my games here was seeing the town rolecard and actually realizing that yes, I could be ruining the game for the experienced players and playing awful, but also I don't know their alignment so I have to try anyway. I didn't even understand this feeling in my first game on site which is probably why I was so obvious scum.

I normally would never be that assertive talking to players whom I know are like 20 times better / more experienced than I am at a game if I know they're on my team. I think me being stubborn newb town d1 in 721 is another example of playing to win, possibly at the expense of everyone else's fun (hi Md) if it turns out I'm actually just throwing.

Policy lynching RC, had I actually done it, would also be an example of playing to win at other people's expense. It's not very nice if it actually prevents RC from playing mafia because someone does it every game, and if people notice it decreases his scum winrate from 95% to 0%, it's pretty likely to catch on. The "ethical" thing is to lynch the least charismatic poster like usual d1 so that people aren't punished for being good at the game.

I hate lying like 100 times more than I hate yelling insults at people, but this is a game where scum at the very least are supposed to behave unethically, like being pretty much required to lie, and anyone can roll scum, so I feel like it's pretty much expected that people are going to do what they think it takes to win the game, even if it's not a nice thing to do.

In any case this post is getting way too long. While "what should be acceptable site meta" isn't really my concern, I really, really, don't want people WKing me out of game over this in particular and it would be super hypocritical for me to say nothing here. I have no idea where the line is supposed to be drawn when one of the rules of the game is that you play to your wincon.

Feel free to WK me in game though

[ruru]

@Maruchan: Thank you for modding

Thanks Maruchan!

[ruru]

@ruru: I

really

didn't notice Hiraki got lynched already. I was 1 page behind and didn't even notice that I was, so wasn't aware of any posts on the page where he got lynched.
You wanna know something even fannier? I wasn't keeping taps on the vote count for the first lynch of the game either.

Now go join 728 before it's full.

Lots of familiar faces already

We really need to stop erroneously scumreading each other sometime

Although I feel like you towntold pretty hard later on so it worked out anyway

[Not_Mafia]

I just scroll past RC AtE and wait for him to calm down

[ruru]

Also is it me or would this setup be a bit more balanced/interested if it was what I thought it was rather than what it actually was?

[Invisibility]

yay

[Maruchan]

I just stopped wanting to play the game when someone I had never played with started advocating policy lynching me D1.

I'm really sorry you felt that way

Not even mentioning the idea would be an insult to your scum game though honestly

NM - Once gain I dont understand how df you survive day one in any game

I guess UglyDuck being too scummy to policy lynch anyone d1 probably helped

Also people have said NM is readable, lolhammers are whatever in mountainous, and there were a couple of things later that made me think he was town although I really have no idea if they were valid reads or just luck

It has become site meta that "play to win" is more important than "play to have fun". These two should not be mutually exclusive, but they have become so. Playing to win as a bad guy means personal attacks, vendettas, lying about everything ,raging, etc. and it isn't just you, it's a large number of players. That isn't a game. That's a stress inducing

Okay, so I actually have a lot of thoughts on this

So I read RC's post and it made me want to stop playing the game and then I slept on it and I got over it, in large part because it could have just been him playing to win (apparently not actually the case, but still)

I've been flamed much worse outside of mafia and generally don't really care that much, the only reason I cared is that I actually really look up to RC's play so being flamed by him in particular felt pretty bad

Personally I do believe in playing to win. If I don't do something because I'm personally uncomfortable with it then I really think that's me being a suboptimal mafia player, not me being a morally awesome person. Like I'm pretty sure there are a lot of optimal scum plays for example that rely on yelling at people and making them feel terrible until they do what's asked, which is not at all my personality. I mean, I can be individually super toxic but in most situations more cold than hot and specifically trying to command groups of people to do things does not come naturally at all to me. If it came naturally to me, I would probably be trying to use it to my advantage in game.

I don't think it's unique to scum play either. The only thing that even caused me to be more assertive in my games here was seeing the town rolecard and actually realizing that yes, I could be ruining the game for the experienced players and playing awful, but also I don't know their alignment so I have to try anyway. I didn't even understand this feeling in my first game on site which is probably why I was so obvious scum.

I normally would never be that assertive talking to players whom I know are like 20 times better / more experienced than I am at a game if I know they're on my team. I think me being stubborn newb town d1 in 721 is another example of playing to win, possibly at the expense of everyone else's fun (hi Md) if it turns out I'm actually just throwing.

Policy lynching RC, had I actually done it, would also be an example of playing to win at other people's expense. It's not very nice if it actually prevents RC from playing mafia because someone does it every game, and if people notice it decreases his scum winrate from 95% to 0%, it's pretty likely to catch on. The "ethical" thing is to lynch the least charismatic poster like usual d1 so that people aren't punished for being good at the game.

I hate lying like 100 times more than I hate yelling insults at people, but this is a game where scum at the very least are supposed to behave unethically, like being pretty much required to lie, and anyone can roll scum, so I feel like it's pretty much expected that people are going to do what they think it takes to win the game, even if it's not a nice thing to do.

In any case this post is getting way too long. While "what should be acceptable site meta" isn't really my concern, I really, really, don't want people WKing me out of game over this in particular and it would be super hypocritical for me to say nothing here. I have no idea where the line is supposed to be drawn when one of the rules of the game is that you play to your wincon.

Feel free to WK me in game though

Miss phrased that. Lying is expected. Lying about mod communications pointlessly, lying about personal opinions of people, lying about emotions etc is what I meant

[Alchemist21]

wait LOL

remind me to never play an open setup again

ever since the arrival of mathdino they've become awful

i had nothing to do with this setup's creation or execution

I think his comment had to do with how people try to mathematically break Open setups.

[Alchemist21]

Also people have said NM is readable

I wish I knew how. I'm not sure I could reliably read him.

[RadiantCowbells]

I am town far more often than I am scum and the town equity I add when I'm left alone is very high. It's not to your advantage to policy lynch me every game regardless of how it feels to you.
I'm not playing with you again but I hold nothing against you out of game. I'm not tracking hydra w/l regardless because I don't want to feel obligated to meticulously micromanage my partners as scum.
But I have no desire to play with someone with your attitude and I don't feel like I should have to.

[Scummies]

Congratulations to the victors!

The game has drawn to a close, the jig is up! The scum have lost, but others have won!

Take a few days, think about the game. Recognize what was best in your teammates and opponents, and consider nominating them for a Scummy! Players and mods in this game may be eligible for one of the following awards:

BODY OF WORK AWARDS

Best Mafia Catcher

: Also known as the Paragon of Mafia Hunters, this award is given to the single town player who, across all of their games for the year, exhibited the best ability for nailing those dirty scumbags and bringing the bad guys to justice while playing as a pro-town role.

Rising Star

: This award is given to the player that is a rising star in the game of mafia, showing great promise to join the elite echelon of mafia players. This award replaces both the Best Newbie award and Most Improved Player awards, and judges may consider elements of both those previous awards in deciding this award.

Excellent Moderation

: Also known as the “The Modfather” Award. This award is given to the moderator who, over the course of the past year, exemplifies the best qualities of a moderator in the operation of the game, including but not limited to quality and frequency of vote counts, organization of the game, dealing with issues that arise, keeping players active, and so forth. Judges may consider how challenging the games a moderator ran were, but they shall not penalize a moderator for only running more basic games. A mod must run at least 3 games to completion in the calendar year to be considered for this award.

SINGLE GAME - PLAYER

Most Cunning Manipulator

: Also known as the “Don Corleone” Award. Awarded to the player who has the strongest single game performance as mafia. In rare cases, where a player feels an entire scumteam gelled to create a strong cohesive scum performance, multiple members of a team may be nominated.

Best Performance Third Party

: Also known as the “Hannibal Lecter” Award. Awarded to the player or players that performed the most impressively in winning their game as a third party.

Most Memorable Event

: Also known as the “Kodak Moment” Award. Awarded to the player or players who were involved in the most memorable event in a game of mafia. Fake claims, funny claims, awesome exchanges, etc. may all be considered for this award

SINGLE GAME - MODERATOR

Best Setup

: Also known as the “Rube Goldberg” Award. Given to the moderator who designed the best setup. Judges may consider the roles involved in a game, how those roles interacted, how balanced a setup was, whether it furthered any particular theme, how the setup interacts with a mechanic, or any other factors the judges deem relevant. This award is distinct, however, from the “Best Mechanic” award in that it does not consider how good or bad any change to the basic way a Mafia game is played.

Best Flavor Text

: Also known as the “Paperback Writer” Award. Given to the moderator who wrote the most compelling flavor text. Judges should consider the flavor text of all parts of the game, including Role PMs and Day/Night scenes. Where appropriate, Judges may consider how well the flavor works with the announced theme.

Best Mechanic/Mutation

: Also known as the "Mad Scientist” Award. Given to the moderator who figured out the most compelling way to change the basic mechanics of the game of mafia, and/or created the most compelling new role or adaptation to increase player enjoyment. Judges shall consider both the basic idea behind the game as well as how well it was executed, and the uniqueness and quality of the role/adaptation.

SITE AWARDS

Game of the Year

: Also known as the “Player’s Choice” Award. This award is given to the moderator of a game. It is given in recognition of the overall excellence of a game. The Game of the Year award is a "catch all" award for the best overall game throughout the entire year, considering all aspects of the game from moderator quality, to the excellent design and composition of the game, to the performance and cohesion of the playerlist. A Game of the Year is meant to be the game that we can all point to later and say "This game was the best game the site could offer that year in terms of Design, Playerlist, and moderating capability." This is a PUBLIC VOTE. [/color]

The

2018 Scummies thread

is located here.
You may nominate a player or moderator for an award using this form.

[PenguinPower]

To nominate this game and any players or mods in it, please see the

Scummies nomination thread.