Open 735: Watchmen Wanted - Game Over!

volxen
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Post Post #125  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:41 am

In post 108, GameNBurger wrote:So I'm back for a while

Let me weigh on some shit

@NORTH:

Short summary of my last game, i'd do some game theory stuff or long pairing posts that were like open notes, which is just my style of play for the most part but people kept saying "this is never town" which is just the dumbest assumption

I know lazy scum is a popular strat on this site but god damn somebody's gotta break the circlejerk rip tides because scum could just easily coast by putting in effort in note taking

Thats probably the largest reason why i felt the need to comment on it ahead of time since I really hated having to just not say anything in the interest of the town not flip flopping more than it already did that game, not only that but if scum tries to ride out a similar strat of just putting in over the top effort and taking town cred from people I want to be able to call it out with scum potentially being armed with ammo of me keeping quiet in the case that anyone gives me towncred

And I don't buy into that shit of "act bad then attract scum who try and attacks you or buys into it" because town has every right reason to call you out on that as scum does so its just a big showy waste of everyone's time that will cast doubt on ones self to the rest of the town

@Volxen
How have you missed my references to my previous game being the main hitch that motivates my action its in the quote you quoted



I didn’t miss the reference you made to your previous game, I just disagree that it was beneficial/necessary to bring it up in regard to how people may or may not be reading you in this game. To me at least, going out of your way to say “don’t townread me for this” comes across as odd and forced. Why not just let everyone come to their own conclusion? That’s all I’m saying.

In any case, you did elaborate more on your reasoning in this post in your response to NSG, so perhaps we will just have to agree to disagree on this point.

In post 111, Ausuka wrote:
@volxen: why do you think scum!GNB argues that people will tr him for mechanics when he doesn't actually believe that?


As I see it there are really only two reasons why he would go out of his way to tell people not to townread him:

1) If he is town, perhaps he really just did have a bad experience in previous game(s) where people incorrectly equated effort with towniness, and he’s worried it might happen in this game based on that.

2) If he is scum, he may just be using basic reverse psychology to plant the idea that he is acting like town by essentially saying “don’t give me easy town points, make me earn them”.

At the moment though, he’s a null-read for me, as most of his content has been the mathematical proof, talking about hypoclaiming and lurking, and the whole bit about him not wanting people to townread him solely based on providing the mathematical proof.

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Post Post #126  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:07 am

In post 124, Sesq wrote:okay it feels like nobody gets that post which is fine because i could have formatted it better. i said "yeah hes probably town" and the last words were "wait no, i think hes scum." and previously i have seen productive things out of scumreading without explanations so its something i try to use, although devotion to the ideal should be contextual

the main problem i have with his play is that it feels like he is walking into the game with a heavy amount of rigid thinking over what can and cannot be discussed and how things should or should not go. i think this is a scum playstyle because in rigidity you can form solid ideas to build off of that dont require the sort of improvisational fervour one needs as a scumplayer without strategy. that said the goals are seemingly cryptic and i dont really understand them, and it could be a weird fusion of learned behaviors influenced by past results in games, but i havent played with him before so i dont know. feel comfortable on it for now.

Hey sesq, problem is I can see both scum and town being frustrated with you if you’re “scumreading without explanations” - how do you differentiate the “reactions”?

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Post Post #127  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:09 am

In post 122, Dunnstral wrote:I'd rather be weird than scummy

I meant weird in a suspicious way (not towny).

I’ll wait for your full catchup.

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Post Post #128  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:44 am

In post 121, Keyser Söze wrote:weird choice of posts to share comments on:

- first one about set-up talk
- second one about a previous game
- third one about early D1 pre-flip paranoia
- unexplained vote


Can you explain why this is suspicious?

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Post Post #129  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:02 am

In post 128, Dunnstral wrote:
In post 121, Keyser Söze wrote:weird choice of posts to share comments on:

- first one about set-up talk
- second one about a previous game
- third one about early D1 pre-flip paranoia
- unexplained vote


Can you explain why this is suspicious?

You've ignored some of the more pertinent (AI) moments of the game so far to share observations of 3 areas I'm not sure will help you find scum.

Plus, curious to see your naked vote explained (it's not RVS, as you said it's "serious").

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Post Post #130  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:53 am

Votecount 1.04

Keyser Söze (3) - Sesq , Reundo , 2 718281828459
2 718281828459 (2) - Keyser Söze , Irrelephant11
Sesq (1) - Dunnstral
GameNBurger (1) - volxen
Irrelephant11 (1) - Ausuka

Not voting: GameNBurger, Kop, northsidegal, Poseidon

The deadline for Day 1 is 1:52 pm CT on Tuesday, September 4, in (expired on 2018-09-04 14:51:53).

Irrelephant11
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Post Post #131  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:57 am

In post 129, Keyser Söze wrote:
In post 128, Dunnstral wrote:
In post 121, Keyser Söze wrote:weird choice of posts to share comments on:

- first one about set-up talk
- second one about a previous game
- third one about early D1 pre-flip paranoia
- unexplained vote


Can you explain why this is suspicious?

You've ignored some of the more pertinent (AI) moments of the game so far to share observations of 3 areas I'm not sure will help you find scum.

Plus, curious to see your naked vote explained (it's not RVS, as you said it's "serious").


Keyser do you think it's true or not that Dunnstral was responding to everything said to/about him?

@dunnstral at some point please do explain the sesq vote
no rush tho

@sesq Based on my last game with Keyser, he does this sort of "I'm done talking about it" thing as town. idk if he'd do it as scum, but it's something that weirded me out last game like it is to you now and it turned out to just be playstyle/personality.

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Post Post #132  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:53 am

In post 131, Irrelephant11 wrote:Keyser do you think it's true or not that Dunnstral was responding to everything said to/about him?

I don't think he has...(?). But there's not much to his ISO yet. He needs to catchup and post some relevant thoughts.

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Post Post #133  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:00 pm

Sure - I just mean the list of things he talked about were all responses to things said to/about him

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Post Post #134  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:05 pm

In post 133, Irrelephant11 wrote:Sure - I just mean the list of things he talked about were all responses to things said to/about him

Ah ok - well, you were the first person to name drop him (bring direct attention to his slot), but he hasn't addressed your suspicion yet...?

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Post Post #135  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:53 pm

In post 126, Keyser Söze wrote:
In post 124, Sesq wrote:okay it feels like nobody gets that post which is fine because i could have formatted it better. i said "yeah hes probably town" and the last words were "wait no, i think hes scum." and previously i have seen productive things out of scumreading without explanations so its something i try to use, although devotion to the ideal should be contextual

the main problem i have with his play is that it feels like he is walking into the game with a heavy amount of rigid thinking over what can and cannot be discussed and how things should or should not go. i think this is a scum playstyle because in rigidity you can form solid ideas to build off of that dont require the sort of improvisational fervour one needs as a scumplayer without strategy. that said the goals are seemingly cryptic and i dont really understand them, and it could be a weird fusion of learned behaviors influenced by past results in games, but i havent played with him before so i dont know. feel comfortable on it for now.

Hey sesq, problem is I can see both scum and town being frustrated with you if you’re “scumreading without explanations” - how do you differentiate the “reactions”?


reactions exclusively from the person i'm voting. im sorry if that was unclear.

as for the gnb stuff i think makes sense just, as a person to say that. because you're annoyed with site meta, and i think thats why it was said. hard to see any scum agenda within the statement

@irrelephant it's not JUST the "stop talking about it" thing, it's the general amount of rigidity. but if this behavior is cohesive with what you've previously seen from him, s' enough for me

UNVOTE:
1312

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Post Post #136  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:58 pm

In post 134, Keyser Söze wrote:
In post 133, Irrelephant11 wrote:Sure - I just mean the list of things he talked about were all responses to things said to/about him

Ah ok - well, you were the first person to name drop him (bring direct attention to his slot), but he hasn't addressed your suspicion yet...?


I guess this is a point

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Post Post #137  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:29 pm

I am lost. I am not sure where to begin to respond to this mess.
Retired Account. I have no replacement.

Please be kind to Allomancer and join the nomic game: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=78211

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Post Post #138  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:37 pm

Sorry, I've had 2 long busy days at work and haven't been on. I will catch up tomorrow.

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Post Post #139  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:03 am

In post 112, Irrelephant11 wrote:
Disagree with Ausuka about VOTE: 2.178, who seems maybe overeager to justify eir own actions? on re-read

Ausuka you asked "what thoughts are people supposed to have about Dunnstral considering he's only made one mechanic-related post back in RVS?"
This is my question exactly. What does Dunnstral want us to think about him making only one mechanic-related post? Does he want us to just forget about him? Why avoid RVS if he felt RVS wasn't over? Why say so little if he thought RVS was over? Out of those with little to no content, his slot was and is most interesting to me (like 2% interesting, compared to other slots' 0%), which is why I brought him up.

can you elaborate about 2.718? what's odd about eir justification of eir actions?

Couldn't you say these things about most low-content posters though? Like, it's not uncommon to give little content, it's kinda impossible to judge if he wants to be forgotten about at that time, people saying little outside of RVS isn't like new? I guess it just seems like a kinda weird thing to bring up at such an early point.
In post 115, Keyser Söze wrote:
In post 111, Ausuka wrote:
Spoiler: 2 718281828459 (replaced Saudade)
First thought is that I like - Considering his tone here I think 2.718 is unlikely to approach the game this way as scum? Like, I guess I get the feeling he approaches this game in a fairly logical manner and that it wouldn't really appeal to him so much to fake gut reads as scum in the stead of logical reads which I think get townread more. It also seems towny that he goes back and tries to justify and elaborate on his read - if scum are going to bother faking a gutread I'm not sure they bother since the word "gut" tends to make people value what you're saying a lot less.

He seems somewhat like town with legitimate conviction in ; he isn't, like, overly waffly, and I think his approach to Keyser where he builds up his conviction is towny and genuine. It starts as a gutread and he finds evidence that his read is correct and then pushes it. I feel reasonably confident that 2.718 is town.

I must put my hand up and admit the development of his scum read does look town-iesh :shifty: But I cannot get past him saying "Why is Keyser wanting to limit the forbidden topic to page 1?" as if that was scum alignment indicative. I'm not convinced 2.718 is town yet. I'd like him to explain what he meant when he presented this narrative about me being scum-in-panic-mode...?

I mean, sometimes people disagree on what's AI, I don't think that makes 2.718 scum.
In post 119, Reundo wrote:
In post 105, Keyser Söze wrote:- town can call their own posts non-alignment indicative when accused of being scummy.
- both town and scum can ask if there is day chat.
- a town player can show concern if they think going down an avenue will be unproductive.
- a town player can be very concerned about being put in "bad light" for unjust causes.
- a town player can stubbornly push to try to change the subject if they think it won't help find scum.
- townies can make dumb mistakes and provide incorrect examples.
- town can "attack" the player attacking them.


Yes, of course town can do all of the above, but my point was that I thought your posts would favor scum!you more than town!you. Like for the first point, it would be more productive from a town POV imo to explain your reasoning behind your post and let Sesq decide for themselves whether or not it was scum indicative instead of straight up telling them they "shouldn't see it as an attempt to look townie" and that it's "non-alignment indicative", and it seemed to me like you were being more defensive than the situation called for. Of course you could be defensive as town, but being defensive naturally has more benefits for scum who lose a lot more than town by being suspected -> voted -> lynched, and when it was combined with something I saw as anti-town (calling your own post "non-alignment indicative" read to me like you were trying to force a certain interpretation of your post instead of leaving it open to discussion) I was inclined to read it as a scum defense. I could probably do the same with a lot of the other points you listed, but I don't think it would be worth it. Honestly, my scum-read of you has been waning steadily, and I think a lot of your later posts do read as genuine scum-hunting (the slight backpeddling of your 2.17 read especially caught me off-guard), but you have to understand that not everyone's going to view you as town and that it's not entirely implausible for me to see your actions coming from scum. If you think I'm "arguing over fluff" then so be it, but all you've said to dispute that is saying that your actions can come from town, which wasn't my point at all and doesn't dispute the fact that your actions could come from scum as well, so if you are town then do a better job of proving me wrong.


Now, for a quick snap-shot read of everyone else...

Irrelephant11 - Decently engaged with the game. His questions and scum-hunting seem pretty fine as a whole, and there's nothing that juts out too much. He seems a little reluctant to scum-read people, and even his vote on Sesq didn't seem that committal. He only voted them to move to something more interesting (?) and then moved onto 2.178 in the next post without much indication why. I'm not so sure it's really scum-motivated though, so he's kind of lean town for me.

Ausuka - Hasn't really done too much so far, but her reads list is pretty solid. I got around the same impression from Sasq as she did, and I really liked her read on northsidegal too. Her read on me seems a bit rambling and is not too coherent tbh, but I guess I get where she's coming from. Probably a lean town once she posts some more.

2.187 - His vote on Keyser seems a bit forced as he doesn't really back it up all that much. His follow up post is meh. I liked his pseudo-town-read of me because it was kind of unconventional, though it does line up neatly with his Keyser vote. It also didn't read as obvious buddying since he admitted my post was a "little annoying". Null lean scum.

Sesq - They seemed a bit too eager to back off of Keyser from the first line of #80, but they wouldn't have really be motivated to do that as scum. But then in the next line they say that keyser is "detached" from the game, but also not in a scum way, yet they aren't really swayed and they keep their vote (???). I don't understand their game plan from either alignment to be honest, and I'm not sure how much of this is actually AI or just their playstyle. Null all around.

volxen - His post-RVS introduction was pretty pointless and actually did nothing to add to the discussion. I get I might be kind of a hypocrite since similar things have been said about my introduction, but it seems even more exaggerated in that the distance between the post he was responding to and his actual post number were literally pages apart and that all he said was basically just paraphrasing what northsidegal said. A lean scum for me.

GameNBurger - Started off with a bunch of game theory talk that didn't lead anywhere, then pleading to people not to town-read him for him, which ironically enough made me town-read him for it a little initially. Honestly, I'm not getting too much of an impression from his posts, like nothing really just juts out as towny or that impressive. Pretty null.

Dunnstral - Not having a strong impression on me. I have no idea why he's voting Sesq. Null.

northsidegal - I think she has a lot of interesting perspectives on things. I liked how she pointed out that GameNBurger could've held onto his "don't townread me" comment to see if anyone would town-read him for it first, but then again I don't think this would really glean anything AI since it wouldn't have been obvious as town to make that decision -- seemed like more of a "good play vs. bad play" sort of statement. It's sort of the same thing with her later posts on Irrelephant, though she did admit it probably doesn't matter much in the end. She offers solid advice overall, which does help town in a sense, but I'm clueless in terms of where she leans on basically everyone. Null.

Poseidon - Close to nothing from him. Null.

Kop - Literally nothing from him. Also null.


So basically in a condensed form the players I'm most comfortable considering as town for the moment are {Irrelephant11, Ausuka} and as scum are {2.187, volxen}.

I'm not sure why you're focusing on Keyser so much when he's about null to you? And how is 2.718's post forced just because it didn't have much reasoning behind it? Like Dunnstral gave no reasoning at all and he's null to you.

also i'm kind of naturally rambly sorry :oops:

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Post Post #140  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:05 am

In post 139, Ausuka wrote:I mean, sometimes people disagree on what's AI, I don't think that makes 2.718 scum.

Wise words which I agree with. Willing to put that whole mess behind me, as I ended up arguing over fluff myself.

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Post Post #141  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:09 am

Ausuka, is your vote on Irrelephant11 RVS/now serious?

Looking at Reundo next...

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Post Post #142  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:20 am

In post 141, Keyser Söze wrote:Ausuka, is your vote on Irrelephant11 RVS/now serious?

ugh thanks for reminding me I totally forgot to change that.

VOTE: reundo

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Post Post #143  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:41 am

VOTE: Reundo

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Post Post #144  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:53 pm

reundo's probably just Out To Lunch
1312

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Post Post #145  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:00 pm

Okay I’m seriously busy for a small spell

I might have to go V/LA

I’ll be back later to either catch up and have longer write ups or go V/LA

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Post Post #146  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:52 pm

Poseidon and northsidegal have been prodded. Poseidon has (expired on 2018-08-26 17:52:24) and northsidegal has (expired on 2018-08-27 17:52:24) to post before I start searching for their replacements.

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Post Post #147  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:04 pm

@Ausuka he just feels overeager to provide reasoning for his votes. At this early stage, as NSG pointed out, there’s a lot more for town to gain by keeping things close to the chest at times. 2718 seems like he’s the one that wants towncred (as opposed to the townsite reason for oversharing - to actually help others sort)
Really scraping the bottom of the barrel for reads here, though, I admit

VOTE: reundo

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Post Post #148  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:23 am

@2.718, are you still scumreading Keyser? In you said that he seemed scummy to you because he brought up hypoclaiming/setup at the beginning of day 1 but didn’t want to continue talking about it beyond page 1. You then further pushed this case in . I get that day 2 is the first day where hypoclaiming can be taken advantage of, but why was it such an issue for you that he wanted to briefly bring up the topic at the beginning of day 1? From Keyser’s posts it seems like he simply wanted to briefly bring up the issue, without it becoming a major focus for day 1. I’m just curious if you are still scumreading him, and if so, if it’s only because of the hypoclaiming/setup discussion.

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Post Post #149  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:46 am

As of now, I am completely lost. I will re-read some ISOs and come to new conclusions, doing my best to drop my previous biases.
Retired Account. I have no replacement.

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