Mini Normal 2003: donezo

[Tchill13]

I think we lynch Hop because he will never be the NK here.
Town!Hop has no power left to threaten scum, and offers too much wine for a MyLo.
No reason to no lynch today, that is for tomorrow if we miss with Hop.
We also don't risk wagoning any town-PRs with his lynch.

The scum will either kill Lovebird, or help us with their NK narrowing the pool.
All in all, Hop-lynch offers us the best chances for tomorrow.

Would you even consider Scum! Lovebird if he wasn't the NK?

We haven't handled anything.

NM/love are the weakest TR's imo from anyone.

Hop, UNA, arc, worst have all done things that could easily be scum motivated. Which is why I'm stuck on that 4. 1 if not 2 scum is in that group.

[Tchill13]

Una.

You don't see the potential for a worst/hop team?

Worst keeps pushing UNA. UNA keeps pushing...??? Keeps agreeing with worst though. Very confusing interactions there.

[Tchill13]

Hop what do you think about the clear from your lack of claiming the screen kill?

[Tchill13]

Havo don't you think the worst is objectively the best lynch considering he's easily the player that's scum with the most possible teammates?

[Tchill13]

NM and love...

Do something.

[Tchill13]

Let's just keep letting NM slide through. Sounds like a GREAT plan.

NM could easily be scum with one of the main suspects here. Would explain why he's practically been town cleared by everyone and little talk has been made about him.

There's so many damn directions to go and we're not doing anything about any of them.

Instead, a no lynch was actually considered lmao.

[Tchill13]

I don't know how the worst hasn't picked up any steam.

[Tchill13]

I'm not saying right now particularly I'm saying as a whole.

We've got 3+ team possibilities and you suggested a no lynch.

PoE can't win town every game.

[Tchill13]

So hop suggested the no lynch. Are you still hard defending him?

[Tchill13]

We could lynch arc.

[Tchill13]

I'm not considering arc for the lynch today I wanted to see what worst said because he was the only one on...of course the one time I try that lol.

No I'm very serious about solving UNA/arc hop/worst UNA/worst

Which is obviously why I keep pushing worst.

[Tchill13]

And I literally wanted you to say anything but "it makes me 100 percent town"

[Tchill13]

I love sarcasm. I didn't pick up on it there. Which is sad because I hate ppl that can't pick up sarcasm lol.

[Tchill13]

Worst, UNA, hop, arc, NM.

That's the people I want lynched. In order of killing with fire to water boarding.

[Tchill13]

Well it was anti town when I brought that up

[Tchill13]

Well if anybody is asking...I still want the worst lynched.

[Tchill13]

VOTE: notmafia

[Tchill13]

Then yall should theoretically compromise on an UNA lynch since yall both agree on that

@una @arc

If I'm not voting worst I'm voting NM unless something new happens.

[Tchill13]

We’re all probably town

No, but it’s meaningless to say Havo is probably town because it applies to literally everyone

This is utter dog shit from the depths of the deepest gutter.

Why havo? Why havo specifically?

You haven't sorted.

Everyone is probably town to you

We should lynch one person because you've been pushing them in day 1 with no sign of beginning to try and sort other.

Yet you are still no where near getting lynched.

[Tchill13]

Jfc?

[Tchill13]

@worst if you think UNA flips green I'm assuming you'd be pushing me.

[Tchill13]

Well good luck with that.

[Tchill13]

What's to contemplate?

[Tchill13]

OK. Nobody post. It would be terrible for someone to put effort into being transparently town.

[Tchill13]

hey you know the best way to play scum una? its to do stuff that doesn't make sense and my opinion of hop is kinda high so i wouldn't be surprised if this was his approach.

and btw. Paranoia plus no TR's at all isn't good.

[Tchill13]

I thought Cheeky was surely scum -> I pushed for their lynch heavily -> they flip green -> I feel like all of my reads must be shit, other than Chill and Srceen because I feel like I know them -> Srceen was NK'd.

I thought Chill was pretty obviously town D1 -> then I started to notice things that gave me scumvibes, let's call it gut -> I used that to squeeze discussion and interactions -> I went back to townleaning him -> I now feel like he is even better at scum than I already thought, and I'm fucked.

I thought Hopkirk was clearly scum fakeclaiming Vig -> there was no second nightkill, so I felt like "exactly" -> I finally started to think about Srceen as the kill and Hop NOT claiming it -> I don't think it fits scum!Hop.

I thought I had the worst figured out, and had a solid townread on them -> I got bashed for my mistaken read on Cheeky -> I started to second guess myself -> I started to humor the idea on scum!the worst -> I'm fking confused.

On top of these we have N_M lurking and not saying ANYTHING that helps ANYONE ELSE THAN HIMSELF.
I had him as "obv.town" D1, but seeing as how my D1 reads turned out..!

I agree with this in my bones.

[Tchill13]

the player thats gonna do the most damage to us if scum is NM in the end.

We can talk about possible scum teams all we want but at this pace NM is literally a NAI slot that i dont want in lylo even if im dead. I'm not trusting that guy to "help" win town the game.

at least arc slips in and out of her coma. Honestly if arc and love picked up activity after the VLA i think this game would get much easier. It's actually possbile 2 scum are in the lurkers and we need to straighten shit out before day 3.

Im fine with lynching NM. Immediate FOS of anyone that suggested a no lynch before suggesting lynching a lurker.

no lynch puts scum in control and doesn't help town at all compared to getting rid of TWO MAJOR suspects.

[Tchill13]

Hop what do you think about the clear from your lack of claiming the screen kill?

There’s a lot about Nite 1 that doesn’t make sense. But we just don’t have enough info yet to decipher it. I feel like I’m wasting time every time my brain drifts back to it.

I sort of agree because I used too many braincells by thinking about it before.
BUT.

Give me a case where it's beneficial for scum!Hop NOT to claim the Srceen-kill.

1. Assuming scum!Hop, he would've certainly been the one to actually carry out the kill anyway. (so tracker/watcher -fear doesn't answer the question)
2. Town!JK or Roleblocker has no reason to block him N1.
3. In case of an investigative-guilty on him (Cop of some kind) it doesn't matter if he claims to have done it or not.
4. He didn't backpedal on his Vig-claim at all, so he didn't get "cold feet" anyway.

The only thought I had was that in case of a town protective role, they might be afraid of a "clear" coming from their save on someone, but I doubt that would merit not claiming the kill for themselves.

i want to comment, i have a theory, but i think it'll hurt town more than it helps if hop is a vig so i don't really want to say it.

[Tchill13]

so thats what we should do.

Policy, yes policy a lurker. Let scum get a NK in. Eliminates 2 suspects. thins out the playing field.

[Tchill13]

alright. Answer havo's questions.

then we lynch nm

very easy for scum to act like they have no clue whats going on or lurk.

considering 2/3 times i lose to scum its a lurker...

the buck stops here.

[Tchill13]

Nero is due for a prod.

Can you scum hunt, please? All you doing is Nero's job.

like this could easily be scum prodgin and we're doing nothing about it.

I WOULD RATHER GO TO LYLO AND TAKE MY CHANCES ON CATCHING SCUM OUT OF UNA, WORST, HOP, HAVO THAN GO TO LYLO AND LOSE BECAUSE WE DIDN'T DO WHAT WE SHOULD HAVE TO NM, LOVE, ARC

it's honestly getting annoying.

whats the odds there are 1 scum in arc, nm, love and 1 scum in una, worst, hop? pretty damn good.

whats the odds there are 2 scum in NM, Love, arc? EXPLAINS THE CONFUSION.

whats the odds there are 2 scum in una, worst, hop? This is the issue.

Hops claim could be end game motivated. then you hav associations of course. Weakest SR but doesn't mean there isn't valid reasons here.

Worst push for a no lynch instead of getting rid of a lurker, pushing me after the fact (1 of only maybe 3 people actually doing any kind of sorting) then continually having una at the bottom of the reads yet not pushing (distancing) then hard defending Hop THE WHOLE TIME. The assortment of reasons is why he's my main push for most of this day.

Una rekindled dead wagon after havo could have been pushed. Lining up lynches possibly. Worst at bottom of reads yet never hard pushing that. Thinking the scum team is possibly hop/tchill yet never considering hop/worst and if una did una didn't spend nearly as much time as pushing the hop/tchill team.

look if im alive tomorrow idc if i have to 3v1 people the whole day phase. All i want is the best crew possible in lylo if we get there and im not there. That crew doesn't include NM/love/arc and i have faith in Una/hop/worst/havo/ONE OF (nm/love/arc) to solve the game AS LONG as the scum team isn't una/hop. see we already have to have one of the 3 crutches in lylo. HAVE TO LYNCH NM TODAY.

Sorry worst i just know una and hop's game as town are great due to experience

[Tchill13]

I hope you're joking.

[Tchill13]

rules, you pledge, #11 says any player that wasn't the lynch can post in twilight.

of course if the mod directly says otherwise i follow that (like he did twilight 1).

[Tchill13]

well we've got ourselves a game here folks.

Let the records show, gun to my head, i believe the team is Una/arc atm.

I wasn't neighbored. Can't wait to hear from the rest of the group.

[Tchill13]

Did you iso love before you posted worst?

[Tchill13]

Hmm... Just wondering.

the guilty makes things a hell of a lot easier.

[Tchill13]

Is that a mod joke? Because that's a mod joke at the worst possible time.

As for my scum team explanation. I'll let others pipe in first. I understand why you're holding back information but that doesn't mean you're the only one that gets to do that if you choose to.

I'm sure we will learn plenty this day phase.

[Tchill13]

My town motivation for withholding my information is the same for you withholding yours, more than likely, in hopes of catching BOTH scum this day phase.

XOXO, love
Tchill.

[Tchill13]

gun to head doesnt mean absolutely convinced. thanks though.

i have my case. I'll wait to hear from everyone.

[Tchill13]

I'm VT.

My case for una/arc is pretty simple. UNA rekindled cheeky day 1 after replace in after some interest was made in the havo wagon, letting UNA know havo could probably be lynched day 2. Arc was one of the first players on havo day 2 without discussing much of anything if at all. Slid on there very quickly.

Now UNA I don't think ever voted havo day 2 but since it's confirmed 2 scum I can see why. If both scum avalanche that lynch it looks bad on VCA. The hop flip kinda gave me reason to believe the worst was town due to hard defending the whole game but I really really don't like how the worst came into this dayphase. Really took control of the game.

[Tchill13]

Correct me if I'm wrong arc but haven't you and UNA been fos'ing each other for a bit without actually vehemently pushing each other?

[Tchill13]

Would like to speak to arc before they place a vote.

[Tchill13]

@arc. This wasn't supposed to be lylo. We were supposed to lynch NM and go into mylo with at least a little bit of breathing room that didn't involve NM.

Lynching NM and being in lylo the next day wasn't my intention. How was I supposed to know we had a weak role?

[Tchill13]

I think it's pretty clear una/worst is the team.

I wanted to 1v1 arc but I didn't even think about the NK hop positives from an una/worst team.

Worst even hard defended hop the whole game. Kills his hard TR "look I was right about my read, I'm town".

@worst next time wait a little longer after the game opens before you take control with your master plan. The fact you were so eager is a huge tell in itself.

[Tchill13]

Here's where I'm at.

Whats more believable? Two town investigatives in a game with only 2 scum or

A literal scum slip that could have been avoided by checking the wiki.

Lmao.

You been pushing tchill/havo the whole game. That's too long in a game where screen and hop were night killed.

[Tchill13]

It is literally insane that you have 3 night actions that could lead to a Scums death in a game of 2 scum.

According to worst.

Let's say love hits town night one. Tells town who he targets night 2. Dies.

Vig shoots night 2.

Role cop investigates night 2.

That's THREE actions for TWO scum to get caught in.

Lol at the fact im actually going with the questionable protective claim.

That is just STUPID to even believe.

Worst immediately states "it's a balanced setup" lol.

[Tchill13]

You targeted hop and lock Towned him?

I flat out disagree that you're set up is balanced.

[Tchill13]

The team is the worst and UNA.

Havo isn't lock scum. Havo's been a mislynch push most of the game.

[Tchill13]

Havo will you redact the ninja modifier?

[Tchill13]

I don't see any motivation in tacking on an illegal modifier.

I don't see motivation in havo killing hop.

I don't see any motivation in havo not bringing NM to lylo when he easily could have.

I don't see any motivation in havo choosing to let good, active townies live in a game where half the townies were inactive and weren't the best.

[Tchill13]

@worst you're saying this game is balanced and you're also saying you've game solved on day 3 mainly due to night actions.

Pick one.

Weak neighborizer can actually create a masonry, clear 3 townies.

Vig doesn't have to shoot. Can shoot.

Role cop limits scum to probably ONE PR in this game in particular.

2 investigatives with a masonry possibility, a vig and 2 scum or

1 investigative with a masonry possibility, 1 protective, 1 vig.

The existence of the vig points to a protective imo.

[Tchill13]

Day 2 was NOT either havo or NM.

[Tchill13]

Why the hell does a weak role target anyone night one?

[Tchill13]

Una.

ARC EVEN SAID THAT IT SHIFTED FROM UNA TO NM.

Yes I did defend havo. I'll do it here too. If my hard defense of havo is you're scum case then so be it.

[Tchill13]

You're scum case is night actions.

You admitted that we "as scum" would have won if not for night actions.

Night actions that confirm me and havo as scum but can't be checked. How FREAKING convenient.

Once again. Your impatience is your downfall. It's painfully obvious you were very excited about this.

[Tchill13]

Appearances don't bother me too much just wanna lynch you dude

That's all I needed you to say. Thanks.

[Tchill13]

So hop having a role and claiming vig didn't alarm you at all? You just lock Towned him anyways?

[Tchill13]

Right. I would imagine a vig claim after a role result would kinda be alarming. You just said he was town which is odd to me.

[Tchill13]

@arc. This wasn't supposed to be lylo. We were supposed to lynch NM and go into mylo with at least a little bit of breathing room that didn't involve NM.

Lynching NM and being in lylo the next day wasn't my intention. How was I supposed to know we had a weak role?

I'm off until I can interact with arc. I've gotten what I wanted.

[Tchill13]

Exactly my point.

It's either

Tchill/havo

or

Una/worst

This is fine. Arc do not vote until you agree period.

[Tchill13]

"I do believe yall would have won"

"this is how I spin lylo as scum".

So nice.

[Tchill13]

Yeah I'd just like to talk to arc still.

[Tchill13]

No i don't necessarily think that's true havo. I think the worst or UNA rb'd hop. Love didn't shoot night one (why the hell does a weak role target anyone night one).

Una is probably the role blocker if he's going to that much length and detail to call out a role blocker.

[Tchill13]

The only thing worst/UNA did not have planned before day 3 started up was the havo claim.

I can't explain the ninja modifier.

If you're asking me to take a side based on the illegal modifier or based on play through days 1 and 2, night kills included...

It's an easy decision.

[Tchill13]

Night actions and modifier I'm a made up setup that is way too overpowered for town

or

Actual play that actually points to the scum team throughout the whole game. UNA didn't try to deter the NM policy lynch I don't believe. Worst claims that made up setup is balanced but due to night actions he's solved the game because of night 2. Worst lock Towned a positive result on a role after the role CLAIMED VIG. UNA BROUGHT UP AND STATES AS FACT THAT HOP WAS ROLE BLOCKED. Worst literally couldn't wait for day 3 to start. UNA rekindled a dead wagon after it was obvious there was enough interest in a havo wagon for the next day phase. Worst "doesn't care how this looks I just want to lynch you dude".

@arc. Gotta analyze the hop night kill. Gotta wonder why havo would outright claim an illegal modifier. Gotta see that una was indeed a candidate on day 2 and you gotta question why hop was lock town to the worst after his result but somehow hops flip confirmed me as scum to una.

So we've got a night kill on a player that wanted a town block of me, him and havo. A night kill of a player that suggested and UNA/worst scum team. A night kill of a player that, once flipped town, confirmed me as scum to the worst.

I'm not asking you to put the whole case on the night kill. Look at how the worst took control of the thread so eagerly. Look at how una has played so scummy this entire game. This setup the worst has suggested IS NOT FAIR to a TWO MAN SCUM TEAM. Which we know to be the case now.

If the modifier is all your hung up on. I think it's obviously because that's THE ONLY REASON to hesitate that it may not be worst/UNA. That in itself tells you the team is worst/UNA

[Tchill13]

I also find the tiniest bit of comfort in the fact you're supposed setup isn't town sided but you and worst have game solved because of night actions on night 2.

Arc will see that's not a fair setup.

Neither is a normal with a town ninja due to guidelines.

So we can throw setup discussion out the window if you wish? Oh wait. Thats how scum win. Lol.

[Tchill13]

Like you've literally just town cleared the worst because?

[Tchill13]

From the moment this game opened up it has ALL been night actions and night results. Not one mention of hop being the night kill from una or worst.

Other than to say it confirmed me as scum.

This is laughable. It's obvious what's going on, Who's controlling the thread and why they're talking about certain things and making sure other things don't get any attention.

[Tchill13]

I said why was worst town. Not why was havo scum. Is worst town cleared by associations?

[Tchill13]

My favorite part is the fact that I bring up serious, incriminating questions and UNA says alright let's leave the thread lol.

Here's another issue. Even if you guys were town Havo's modifier shouldn't be the main push. It should be the last push due to the fact of how unlikely someone is to not check before fake caiming .

The fact that's your MAIN issue is ridiculous. It's lazy. You want to town clear the worst because havo is scum but havo is scum because of a "slip".

This is weak stuff.

[Tchill13]

I'm not accepting anything. Una/havo doesn't make near as much sense as una/worst.

You're dodging particular things on purpose.

[Tchill13]

Ik scum isn't gonna go into lylo with a claim that isn't legal.

[Tchill13]

So UNA if you had it your way it'd be no discussion insta lynch havo?

[Tchill13]

After your guilty on havo?

This is just more incriminating for you worst.

[Tchill13]

WHY ARE YOU VOTING MULTIPLE DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

It only confirms you or the people you vote as scum.

My stances aren't ridiculous.

My stance on Havo's modifier is just your main concern. If I don't agree with that then ALL my stances are ridiculous which is a stupid argument.

You turn one stance into all.

You controlled the thread.

You gave a setup that was balanced but theoretically let you solve the game by night 2.

You refused to bring up the hop kill.

You lock towned hop after a vig claim when you KNEW he had a role.

Yeah my stances are SO ridiculous lol.

[Tchill13]

@arc this is very important.

I provided very pressing, incriminating and reasonable questions to una. Una said let's leave the thread until arc comes back. Still hasn't given any reason for worst being lock town other than association.

Worst says my ridiculous stances are why I'm scum. Which is mainly just the stance of me not agreeing about the havo modifier. Votes multiple people which more than likely won't get quick hammered so he can say "I left a vote on them and they didn't get hammered their scum" when it could very well be the case that worst is scum which is why there's no quick hammer.

[Tchill13]

Finally. Some freaking reasoning.

Alright arc there you go. I've laid out my stances has worst has.

It's either worst/UNA or tchill/havo.

Games on you arc.

[Tchill13]

No you've already provided everything arc needs to see the worst/UNA scum team. Really appreciate making this that much easier.

[Tchill13]

Thought you ran away at the sight of actual questions until una came back?

[Tchill13]

Meant arc.

[Tchill13]

Yes because every player plays the game the same way. That's the issue with this site. The egotistical players that assume they can figure anything our also assume you have to play alignments a certain way. Just because it's always a scum tell wifom from other people doesn't mean I play that the same way.

[Tchill13]

It's a loss if you vote there arc.

Give me the case besides the modifier.

[Tchill13]

You can't. The modifier is the only thing.

If scum actually led with an illegal modifier claim it's astoundingly stupid.

[Tchill13]

Seriously.

Town had a weak neighborizer, 2 show role cop and a 1 shot vig? That's what you think?

Of the vig is any good it's a pro town role.

The vig role is as good as the player using it.

Now you also think town had 2 investigatives instead of 1 investigative and a protective?

An investigative that could create a masonry and havo over one third of the player base conf town in lylo?

And ON TOP OF ALL THAT... Una mentioned possible wifom on Scums side.

So you're telling me someone looked at that set up and said "town isn't strong enough let's give scum some wifom and that'll even it out for town."

I'm not disagreeing the modifier is illegal. I'm not sure what happened there.

I'm telling you if you absolutely trust the worst his supposed setup is ludicrous.

It's una/worst.

[Tchill13]

arc please do not vote with them.

[Tchill13]

It's total shit.

[Tchill13]

Of course I can't blame you for voting havo on an illegal modifier but that won una and worst the game.

[Tchill13]

Btw. I'm an odd night tracker which is why I gave havo the benefit of the doubt on his ninja claim. Makes sense to go with tracker.

Investigated hop N1 got no result. Goes with the role block una mentioned. Which is why I really believed una was the role blocker and worst was the partner.

Probably should have said this but I wanted to save my action if we could hit scum tonight and I make it to lylo.

Sorry town.

[Tchill13]

How tf is ninja an illegal thing in a mini normal but a weak neighborizer isn't?

That's ridiculous. I refuse to believe that's justified. Which is why I sided with havo.

A ninja may get investigatived like 10 percent of the time when paired with a tracker.

A weak neighborizer can create a masonry and the odds of him hitting town are high to begin with, low to end wth . So from a setup spec standpoint I would think since the results can be so drastically different (die on n1 or confirm 2 townies end game) that it'd be impossible to balance thus being illegal in mini normals.

So I don't see why or how a ninja modifier could be illegal compared to a role like that which is why I choose not to believe it.

[Tchill13]

I'm pretty pissed town lost because of an illegal modifier that when compared to something CONFIRMED TO BE IN THE GAME would be much weaker.

[Tchill13]

Well I got role blocked... Idk which of you are scum.

[Tchill13]

I mean I was under the impression una was a role blocker due to him bringing that up but there's no reason to leave the worst alive.

I really don't know who's scum.

[Tchill13]

Hey if you want to blame it on me then fine. I get that.

Don't act like it's not your fault at all though.

[Tchill13]

Did you get anything during the night phase worst?

[Tchill13]

ok.

[Tchill13]

I have a few things to ask about setup in a bit.

[Tchill13]

Ninja is actually OK for town now!
They declared the changed some time ago.

[Tchill13]

2 shot weak neighborizer... cool idea.

about as impossible to balance as it gets due to "swinginess"

[Tchill13]

this wasn't even the best or 2nd best case scenario for town and had scum not been in position for a perfet win we still probably would have lost due to night actions.

[Tchill13]

im not upset about the ninja thing. i like the idea to jump out on the town pr.

im upset 2 shot weak neighborizer is more legal than a ninja. also upset that it was obvious that town didnt have enough power as is... so wifom was given to scum.

[Tchill13]

i feel like roles are being valued based on the average of players that tend to play them versus the role itself.

vig is a great example.

GREAT role in the hands of a good or even a decent player.

can literally kill half the scum in a 2 scum game. can eliminate 20 percent of lynchbait in a 10 player 2 scum game.

[Tchill13]

It was town leaning, but not horribly so.

Imagine you let the shot go through.

You go in to day 2 with zero people clear, the weak neighbour down a shot, and it's 5/2

You avoid the lynch like you did. Lovebird can't target or it could be 2/2 day 3. Then you guys have the most unusual claim ever coming out of lovebird in 5 man lylo day 3 with no backing. The game was so close to being super scum sided man.

at best and at worst setup shouldn't determine the outcome. should help or hurt town anywhere from 25 to like 50 percent.

only reason setup was close to scum was if most things played out in scums favor. if most things played out in towns favor its heavy town.

thats rough to swallow the game can swing so heavily based on night actions alone.

i wouldn't complain in a 3 man scum game but threading the needle for balance becomes so much harder in a 2 man scum game.

[Tchill13]

I'm going to post the original proposed setup bc honestly I thought it was genius.

i mean i love the basic ideas dont get me wrong i was just annoyed that wifom was obviosully given to scum because even with a 2 shot weak neighborizer, 1 shot vig, 2 shot role cop apparently a scum RB was too strong...

am i crazy to call that odd?

setup balance should drastically change between 2 and 3 man scum and i dont feel like that was applied.

I always appreciate the mod though. So even if i disagree thank you for creating and running the game.

[Tchill13]

qftaf?

[Tchill13]

i feel like roles are being valued based on the average of players that tend to play them versus the role itself.

vig is a great example.

GREAT role in the hands of a good or even a decent player.

can literally kill half the scum in a 2 scum game. can eliminate 20 percent of lynchbait in a 10 player 2 scum game.

Vig was added because 8/2 is super scumsided based on day play numbers, and it puts the no lynch day in to the hands of a vig instead.

fmpov...

una, hop, tw. great town.

rest didnt do very well being transparently town. nothing personal obviously.

HALF THE GAME. imagine if 70 percent of town plays well and is a bit more active?

[Tchill13]

btw @TW.

youre a welcome addition to ppl ik on site.

[Tchill13]

The original setup I proposed to Nero was.

Mafia Universal Backup (1 Modification: Can receive a role from any alignment.)
Mafia Goon

Town Weak 2-shot Neighbourizer
Town 2-shot Rolecop
6x VT

see... smh.

so many ppl on site dont play unless they get a role or are so bad setup is used to balance terrible play...

thats not gonna fix anything.

[Tchill13]

DAMNNNN that's dangerous. and swingy. but clever.

Thank you Tch. I've been trying to work really hard on my towngame. My earlier games were very weak, and I think I have a long way to go with consistency.

consistency is overrated as far as play style goes lol. i always try to continually change for the better.

[Tchill13]

If you think I make a good original setup, I intend to run themes.

its a 10/10 compared to what i ended up playing.

2TWN is most likely to hit town d1, less likely d2, even less likely d3.

so odds are it plays out exactly as town would wish it would anyway. which is stupid how strong that ends up being.

[Tchill13]

Well played all.

So Tchill you decided to kill me instead? Ha ha ha!! I love your spirit, you had tried your best to fool me out from TW theory. It was fun reading my catch up.


TW played really well, especially at Lylo. Town deserved this win. Good job all.

very annoyed that we orchestrated night kills so well and we ended up being bit in the tail for it due to a late addition to hurt scum even more in setup.

[Tchill13]

i feel like roles are being valued based on the average of players that tend to play them versus the role itself.

vig is a great example.

GREAT role in the hands of a good or even a decent player.

can literally kill half the scum in a 2 scum game. can eliminate 20 percent of lynchbait in a 10 player 2 scum game.

Vig was added because 8/2 is super scumsided based on day play numbers, and it puts the no lynch day in to the hands of a vig instead.

i mean i feel like its a god tier role due to being able to kill half scum in one night.

you can kill the whole scum team by N1. only a possibility but still.

[Tchill13]

so fmpov.

2 god tier roles (2TWN literally percentage wise plays out perfectly) and a pretty damn good one (role cop limits scum prs, finds a role blocker, scum sided role, its over)

compared to role blocker (ok we'll say god tier for the giggles) and a ONLY NEGATIVE WIFOM role for scum.

i disagree with 8v2 being scum sided.

less scum equals less wiggle room. ESPECIALLY WHEN CONSIDERING TOWN PRs.

8v2 being "scum sided" is because town like 70 percent of the time is incompetent.

[Tchill13]

i feel like roles are being valued based on the average of players that tend to play them versus the role itself.

vig is a great example.

GREAT role in the hands of a good or even a decent player.

can literally kill half the scum in a 2 scum game. can eliminate 20 percent of lynchbait in a 10 player 2 scum game.

Vig was added because 8/2 is super scumsided based on day play numbers, and it puts the no lynch day in to the hands of a vig instead.

i mean i feel like its a god tier role due to being able to kill half scum in one night.

you can kill the whole scum team by N1. only a possibility but still.

Thats when I mean about swingy though. It can be 4/2 on day 2. Which is mylo.

if 2TWN crumbs who they target its a guilty.

I'm not disagreeing i mean the swingy is my main complaint lol.

the odds of scum benefiting from swing is astronomically low compared to odds of town benefiting from swing since the weak role has to target scum, 20 percent chance, n1 for that to play out, which still could lead to a guilty.

[Tchill13]

8v2 is really just 7/2 though. Which is considered balanced with more town power than scum power.

Shrug, the game was what it was. You guys played well, but so did a very vocal part of the town.

yeah thats my point. town had 2 vocal players lol... not even half town was active...

anyways the setup wasnt primarily your fault. like i said. Cool role idea. its something i can get behind as far as building a game around.

[Tchill13]

50 percent finding scum 50 percent convincing everyone to lynch scum lol.

that being said i do welcome the challenge of you always knowing my alignment lol. if that continues.

[Tchill13]

50 percent finding scum 50 percent convincing everyone to lynch scum lol.

Oh, I know I lack the most important part!

i mean if youre good at convincing and terrible at finding scum... that causes problems lol.

[Tchill13]

weirdly if lovebird didnt get Havo and/or you bussed I think I would have lynched Una before you

still p sure we would have got havo

the play was to get arc to bring up the nk. get arc to win us the game imo after love's death.

i'd do night kills the same way every time not knowing the setup.

[Tchill13]

lol

i may start modding soon. seems kinda difficult but ive got a few ideas in mind.

[Tchill13]

I really liked the plan Tch. I pulled the same thing in a recent game where I was all but caught scum and won in 3v2 LyLo. It was awesome pressure to play against.

I'd be keen to try a game of yours Tch, sounds like youve got a good head for setups.

TWCB is a fantastic name....

apparently i wouldnt get past the reviewers

if i do mod one i'll let you know. i feel like i'll do best in theme games that are a little mild as far as crazy roles go.

[Tchill13]

That's a topic I wanted to discuss actually lol. It's probably nice to experiment with but I wouldn't use it to read someone based on it alone until it's been right a few times.

[Tchill13]

i feel like roles are being valued based on the average of players that tend to play them versus the role itself.

I mean.

Yes?

You balance roles off of their expected usage--not their theoretical usage.

Theoretically, a miller is a negative utility role because it acts as a false guilty for a cop. That is the theoretical usage of a miller, to weaken the strength of a cop.

In practice, nobody doesn't claim the miller; it is a policy-claim role. So instead of going off of theory, you have to balance...

...Off of the average of players that tend to play the role. And site meta is to instaclaim miller.

Do you disagree with that?

but balancing roles due to expected bad usage is not good. There's only room for improvement in that scenario.

[Tchill13]

For the record, my final thought RE: balance on the setup was:

Swingy as fuck, but I think the math loosely checks out to balanced, yes.

I stand by that assessment--swingy, swingy as can be, swingy as fuck. It could swing either way. But the odds of it swinging one way were loosely equal to it swinging the other way. The odds of town getting fucked loosely equaled the odds of scum getting fucked and the most likely outcome was somewhere in the middle where both sides got setbacks due to misplays.

It's not the job of a reviewer to dissuade swinginess, not under the old reviewing system this game used and not even in the new reviewing system just implemented. It's the job of the reviewer to first check normalcy and then check balance, and while this game was WAY more swingy than I'd personally prefer, the math I'd say

loosely

works out to balanced.

The guideline we as the NRG have is "a side is allowed

up to

60% chance of winning", more or less. This game might not be exactly 50-50, but I maintain we did not exceed the 60% threshold, and that the originally proposed setup did exceed said threshold in favor of scum.

now this is interesting.

So swing is legitimized as long as swinging either way is possible? i believe things can be "too swingy" even if odds of either or is the same. Of course i do not agree with that in this scenario but im willing to agree to disagree since ik ppl do not purposely swing things in favor. you said it yourself though.

if balance is based on how players on an average basis us roles, and this average basis is "poorly", then town more times than not will have the advantage based strictly on roles regardless of how they are used.

[Tchill13]

you can kill the whole scum team by N1. only a possibility but still.

You can also kill the whole town by the end of D2. Only a possibility, but still.

Mislynch D1, weak hits scum, vig hits town, scum nightkill different town. That's half the town dead (4/8 of a needed five) by D2, and placing the game in mylo--where with a mislynch, town loses. Evens favor scum, too.

You can't deny that's strongly in favor of scum if you got that environment.

youre talking about bad play from a vig

the lowest chance of hitting scum from the weak

and then an even lesser chance of the nk overlapping with a vig/weak scum hit.

opposed to

weak hitting town n1 when its the strongest possibilty, weak hitting town n2 when its still the strongest possibilty.

vig possibly holding and either eliminating mislynch oppurtunities for scum or actually killing half the scum

and rolecop possibly getting a guilty on the role blocker, a scum sided role.

which of those sound more likely to you?

and on top of all that you added wifom to scum because a scum role blocker was apparently too strong. thats my main issue.

[Tchill13]

and im saying the expected usage of the vig role is bad due to poor average usage which im sure applies to other roles also.

either way i appreciate you taking the time to explain some of this, ik you're very established here and obviously you know more than i do but i usually keep my mouth shut unless there's something i can't understand from multiple perspectives, such as this one.

the game was obviously centered around a swingy role. i believe the core issue is what the average skill usage of a role is. the lower the average skill of certain prs the more ability a town full of good players has due to giving town more power.

[Tchill13]

this is slowly evolving into a game play discussion lol.

my personal belief is the game should be won in the day phase by either alignment. the night phase is made to intentionally help town, i believe thats what was said, due to roles given to town to help balance BUT scum is expected to dominate night play. Scum doesn't know who the PR's are. So the fact that a lot of balance is due to scum dominating a small percentage of town is kind of odd to me. Maybhe its because i haven't been around too long. A lot of what you stated about scum "deserving" to lose could easily happen due to pure luck.

basically i feel like the "pure luck" is more likely to happen to town in THIS scenario. I see your point and i appreciate your insight in this scenario regardless of my position.

i could discuss game play all day but i do feel like thats below your pay grade so to speak so i won't get into that here.

[Tchill13]

I'm just glad I understand the basis for your thought process now. Setup is primarily a percentage thing. These set percentages are based on average usage of a PR. I disagree with using "average" usage because I believe average usage is poor usage on some if not most roles especially the vig. Of course that's not the case IN A PERFECT WORLD but this isn't a perfect world and I understand mods are only working with what they've got.

My last question is at what point was the backup ninja introduced and why did you feel the need to mess with scums knowledge of the setup when all scum had was a role blocker? Which statistically speaking had less than half a chance of hitting a PR and even if they did hit a PR had a decent chance of actually helping town in that scenario (such as keeping vig from killing town, keeping weak role from dying due to not letting an action on scum go through.)?

[Tchill13]

Scum didn't even get to play out what they'd been working towards due to an illegal claim enabled by setup.

Why would scum tchill/havo set up the scenario they did in blocking the vig, killing the vig that town cleared us, low info n1 kill then presenting this to a low activity towny to frame a una/worst scum team... I do the night actions the same way every time because in the scenario where we actually get to use the reasoning behind them scum probably win but we didn't even get there.

Lylo was wrecked because of the "backup ninja" modifier. The modifier that had no reason being in the game imo. Sure you can say "should have checked before fake claiming" and yes I agree but I want to know of there's any way you can justify having that in the game in the first place.

[Tchill13]

Ig?

[Tchill13]

I mean I definitely still had fun with this like I said you're a welcome addition to people ik.

I'm definitely learning a lot from this back and forth.

I feel that the 2 main train of thoughts in setup is:

Town PRs are balanced off usage (for better or worse) and I get there's not really a better way to do this but I feel it's for the worse due to the fact if usage is your main balancing tool and that usage is poor then there's only room to improve for the town that's using it.

Scum should be able to hunt town PRs fairly easily. Which I do not know how to feel about this.

Can not under state the appreciation I have for mastina to take the time to explain some of these things to a person that doesn't necessarily agree with her. Hopefully she doesn't feel like she's banging her head against a wall.

[Tchill13]

I definitely have a better understanding of the thought process now.

It doesn't matter if I agree and for the most part the issues I have are very picky.

Thanks for the time mastina.