The only thing I know for sure is that omg is overdefensive.
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I really dislike this post. He tells everyone they're voting badly... which you can't even know unless you know who scum is. I guess he just objects to people "jumping at the smallest thing." And I really don't like that comment, because that is the game of mafia: jumping at the smallest thing. You pick apart little things and see if they become bigger.ghostwriter wrote:There is an amazing amount of bad voting going on. Why are so many of you jumping at the smallest thing? It does nothing more than make you look more suspicious.
and then omg says:xtoxm wrote:Elias - I think is scum. Seems like he's making poor excuses for votes (lalaland) and as i've already said don't like the Omg case. Getting that general scum feel...
And really neither of them have given good reasons IMO. I don't mind if they think elias is scum, but I do mind if they don't have a real reason. I doesn't have to be a big reason. It can be a small reason, explained well, and I would buy it. But this "feeling" stuff is BS. Also seems like omg is only too happy to lynch anyone but himself. This little bit with Elias goes nowhere and so Omg posts this:omg wrote:Elias - This isnt an fos etc, but i agree that i do get a general vibe from your posts of manipulative scum. im not going to give a direct example because i cant think of one, but i do get a general feeling of scumminess from you and have since early on in this game.
That comes out of nowhere, and is yet again, not supported with reasoning. At best, that's not helpful. At worst, scummy!omg wrote:Im pretty happy to kill oman or FoO instead, thoughts?
And then everyone else on the bandwagon just agrees.omg_im_innocent_wtf wrote:GSGold wrote:I'm keeping my vote on OMG for trying to paint Norinel as a bandwagoning scum when in fact it was a semi-random vote.Unvote, Vote: GSGold
This was written right after i called out the 2 others for jumping on my bandwagon.
1. This looks to me like: 'Hey, Im not moving off, Im not scum'.
2. It is craplogic when thought about, particularly as I mentioned that I was in particular suspicious of Friend of Old and just included Norinel as he had done the same thing.
3. Constant lurking, and joining my bandwagon at an opportunistic time in the first place.
This is the first vote Im actually pretty happy with.
Is random wagonning really an accepted practice? I'm still new, so maybe I'm wrong, but I think even early in a game you can pick on something small to start a bandwagon. It shouldn't be entirely random... ever. I mean, how will a random bandwagon tell you anything? It puts pressure on the person being bandwagonned, and you can get info about that person. But isn't the person apt to attack you for random bandwagonning? And how are you supposed to analyze anything about the bandwagonners? Any attack on their behavior can be explained away by "hey, guys, it was just random, I didn't mean anything by it." So it's not helpful in a lot of ways and only serves to confuse people. It gives scum a really good place to hide, I think.Elias_the_thief wrote: 3) Post 148 is by no means similar to LLL. LLL was suggesting a random lynch. I was suggesting a randomwagon. Random wagons are extremely good for town. They force players to actually take a stand, they garner information about the playrs reaction, and in general create discussion. Comparing random wagons to random lynches is really dumb, and I thought you were experiened enough to know the difference.
Just because you have seen OMG play this way as town, does not mean he is town again. Have you seen him play as scum? How does he act differently? Don't players TRY to act the same way as scum and as town so they are harder to catch? I know the key word is TRY, and the reality is that it is very hard to play the same way. But I think it's weird that you are "adament" about omg being town.Elias_the_thief wrote: 4) I am defending OMG adamantly because I've played with him twice before and seen lynched for weak reasons that were spurred on by bad reactions on his part. Both times he's been town.
wiki wrote:In Mafia, WIFOM arguments are often a Scum tactic used to distract the Town. The scum will make an unusual play at night, which would lead to a situation that would 'clear' them (because players will think, "Why would a scum do that?"). These arguments are sometimes used by Newbies and should be avoided in favor of clearer arguments.
I see that he was lynched for similar behavior in the first game, but looks like he was NKed in the second game.
Do you realize how condescending this statement is? Analogies and hypothetical situations are not confusing to people, and it is not why people are voting you. If you are having a problem getting lynched as town, it is not because you are smarter than everyone else.omg wrote:Also and finally - I do swear that if I play any future games on here I will simplify my language from the beginning, I was unaware that things like analogies and hypothetical situations were so confusing/unknown to the general public and for the oversight I apologise.
^^^^^^^^^^BACKTRACKING!Elias wrote:Numbered by me for answering convenience:Pink Puppy wrote:1)It shouldn't be entirely random... ever.
2)I mean, how will a random bandwagon tell you anything? It puts pressure on the person being bandwagonned, and you can get info about that person.
3)But isn't the person apt to attack you for random bandwagonning?
4)And how are you supposed to analyze anything about the bandwagonners? Any attack on their behavior can be explained away by "hey, guys, it was just random, I didn't mean anything by it."
1) It usually isn't. Mine was for because LLL was suggesting a random lynch. It was a very small reason, but I wanted a wagon to get discussion going.
2) You dont declare a random wagon as random, usually. The person under pressure may think it is serious and his reactions will help you learn things later in the game. Also, you can archive how people act on the wagon to help later on in the game. More important is that it starts discussion. Without discussion nothing happens.
3) You don't declare it as random, and bandwagons ARE accepted behavior, at least among experienced players. So you're unlikely to be attacked.
4) The other bandwagoners may not know its random. Players might be willing to lynch for a bad reason (see: random bandwagons are in actuality for small reasons). Also, if you learn the alignment about any players involved, it tells you more about the other players involved (scum links).
So I said:Elias wrote:I was suggesting a random wagon. Random wagons are extremely good for town.
So you answer with:Puppy wrote:I think even early in a game you can pick on something small to start a bandwagon. It shouldn't be entirely random... ever.
So it isn't really random, is it? You're basically agreeing with me, and saying now that you weren't random bandwagoning. U can't have it both ways.Elias wrote:It usually isn't. Mine was for because LLL was suggesting a random lynch. It was a very small reason, but I wanted a wagon to get discussion going.
Check out my post 374, and my comments about the whole random bandwagonning thing of yours. I think that you originally supported random bandwagonning, but are not trying to say you support it but didn't do it. Backtracking. Flip Flopping. You're trying to have it both ways.elias wrote:Why am I scum?
Elias wrote:Overall, hes still pretty active so for now he seems town to me.
BM points this out and Elias saysElias wrote:I understand the basic idea, and maybe defensive wasnt the right word. I dunno, you just seem like youre posting a lot more than you need to, almost like an overcompensation. I cant nail it down.
I guess I'm just wondering where this imaginary line is.Elias wrote:NOWHERE did I say that posting frequently was a town tell in general. I said I was getting a town feel from him early on based on his high activity level. That doesnt mean that he can just post a lot the rest of the day and be town, and at a certain point overactivity seems fishy to me.
elias wrote:Regardless, I said I'm not suspicious of you.
BOLDING IS MINE...omg wrote:anyways, i am considering voting OMG, mainly based on his hyperactivity, and his quick response to anything anyone says. I dont know why, but it seems scummy to me. And further,different from the two times I've played with him previously, in which he was town twice.The overdefensiveness argument that people are making is BS by the way.
3) A bit more on the random wagonning debate:elias wrote:no, hes changed some. before he got impatient and tired of town really quickly, and basically just swore at people (this was as town).
Elias wrote:Its called a random wagon in order to create discussion.
Why does he have a problem with the omg wagon being "baseless" when he already said how he likes the idea of random wagons (which are baseless)?elias wrote:By the way, bandwagons are good. I'll agree that the one on OMG is baseless, and a little too large for my liking right now.
elias wrote:Agree with the above post, but I believe GS would be better suited with a vote: GS.
Elias votes GS because he agrees with somebody else's reasons (no original thinking here). Then he asks people for their reasons. Which is usually something you do when you don't understand the reasoning. And if you're voting the guy, you should know why he's scummy.Elias wrote:Reyo and Friend of Old, why are you voting for GS (I know you didnt actually vote yet reyo)?
2) OMG votes GSGold.GsGold post 190 wrote:I'm keeping my vote on OMG for trying to paint Norinel as a bandwagoning scum when in fact it was a semi-random vote.
4)reyo post 204 wrote:First of all, I don't think Norinel's vote is scummy, it was a page one vote.
GW 206 wrote:Right now, GSGold and militant look the most suspicious to me. There are a few more who are looking more anti town than pro town to me right now, but the only people close st to being town in my eyes are, surprisingly, you Reyo and OMG.
5) Reyo reverses and finds GSG scummy:GW 207 wrote:Out of those two, the vote would likely go to GS, but I'm not placing it just yet.
6) Post 217 - Elias votes GSGoldReyo post 216 wrote:Fos:GS
1) for lurking (4 posts so far)
2) not contributing to the discussion in his first 2 posts then suddenly got onto OMG's wagon after he was prodded.
3) The reason for keeping his vote is weak
4)Not commenting on any other players other than OMG.
9) Blazerunner 239 - votes GSGoldXReyoX wrote:Fos : Friend of Old
Your voting pattern in scummy. Saying no one is using any logic in the game and therefore not adding anything to the discussion is a scummy way to hide. You are making yourself hard to be read. Do you realize that its already past noon and what you've been doing is jumping onto wagons without adding sound reasons?
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Hello toshiro, what do you think about the game so far.
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For the moment,Vote: GSsince lalaland seems to be a newbie going to drop out so there's not much point if she's going to be replaced soon, like militant.
11) Reyo attacks FOO's behavior again, while he votes the same person as FOO.Reyo 240 wrote:GS: speak up, you're on L-2
12)This I believe begins the decline of the GSGold wagon:reyo 247 wrote:OK FOD, I'm not buying your reasons behind your behaviour.
Because GsGold isn't there to discuss, people just move on. Which is sorta weird since the bandwagon was big.Norinel 255 wrote:I think my words sort of got twisted around... why aren't you voting FoO? GSGold's primarily a lurker who'll get unvoted once he gets replaced; the OMG vote could be something, but is it more interesting than someone we can actually discuss now?XReyoX wrote:My vote is on GS.Norinel wrote:If you aren't buying it, why aren't you voting? Is the current topic of discussion less important than the fifth vote on a lurker wagon?
If you think Norinel's vote was not scummy, then you agree with GSGold.GSGold wrote:I'm keeping my vote on OMG for trying to paint Norinel as a bandwagoning scum when in fact it was a semi-random vote.
But I thought you agree with GSGold about his vote on OMG? You said you don't find Norinel's vote scummy, and neither does GSGold.reyo wrote:3) The reason for keeping his vote [on omg] is weak
The rules say a mafia power role is POSSIBLE. Not that we definitely have one.Xtoxm wrote:There has been much discussion about town power roles...Notice also that the scum have a power role. How about some ideas on that? Is it just a GF, what kind of things might we expect from it?
True, I don't see what speculating on mafia power roles can accomplish. Nothing good for town.Norinel wrote:As far as the mafia power role things goes, don't all the standard ones only mess around with the town power roles anyway? (GF only makes a difference if there's a cop/vig, roleblocker only interferes with power roles, framer makes life harder for the cop) With only a handful of town roles total, and none of them outed yet except the vig, I don't see why speculation does much good. It'd probably just do more to expose the power roles.
In the way of outing pro-town power roles through clues someone might drop in discussion.Battle Mage wrote:wait. what?Pink Puppy wrote:True, I don't see what speculating on mafia power roles can accomplish. Nothing good for town.Norinel wrote:As far as the mafia power role things goes, don't all the standard ones only mess around with the town power roles anyway? (GF only makes a difference if there's a cop/vig, roleblocker only interferes with power roles, framer makes life harder for the cop) With only a handful of town roles total, and none of them outed yet except the vig, I don't see why speculation does much good. It'd probably just do more to expose the power roles.
Good things for mafia though, xToxm.![]()
How does discussing mafia power roles benefit the mafia? 0.o
BM
Good thinking. Unless we don't have a doc. Is that possible/probable?Oman wrote:Okay, if we look at this at face value (the vig will kill Xtom tonight if he is fakeclaiming) and say that Xtom is a powerrole, he is NOT CULT. This is big, we have one guarenteed non-cultist. Meaning that even though vig is a dicey role in this game (I know I was the vig last game).
I say we are at a very interesting decision here.
let 1 townpowerrole = doc:
Let Xtoxm = Vigilantee -> obviously protecting him from night kills is the best move as we have a confirmed townie with no cult-ableness.
Let Xtoxm = Scum -> obviously the vig will try to kill him, but the doc should protect him (see Xtoxm = vigilantee).
Thus, I think that contrary to standard vig play any vigilantee should counterclaim now, if not, we should accept that Xtoxm IS town.
O rly?GhostWriter wrote:His general inattentiveness makes me believe that he's town.
I agree that that is a frequent scum reaction -- the more people you either confirm as town or express that you think they are townish -- the harder it is for you to hide and get somebody else lynched.Battle Mage wrote:Let me tell u a story.Xtoxm wrote:BM, I don't understand what you mean there, could you try to explain better?
Why to you think Reyo is scum?
I personally find him very town.
Player A is protown.
Player A makes an analysis.
Everyone in the town thinks that Player A is probably protown.
Player B is scum.
Player B doesnt especially want to eliminate a potential mislynch, so he argues against the decision of the town.
Its only a scenario, but ive done it on numerous occassions as scum. As such, i consider it a pretty reliable scumtell.
BM
I did think the last two votes in half an hour was pretty suspicious. But aside from that and the fact that Norinel was hammering, I just don't like how he says "Let's remember that anyone who lynched OMG is probably town because he's acting like this." The fact that he wants to get that in before his vote, it's like he already knows OMG is town... and don't hold him (or other scum) responsible.Norinel wrote:I suppose he is right that his lynch will give us a place to start tomorrow, but let's not forget that even if he does come up townie, each of the rest of us has just as much of a functioning confirmed pro-town brain as he does.
unvote: GW, vote: OMG makes a hammer.
And how was I supposed to know Elias was a "bad direction"? BEsides, I don't remember xtoxm saying it was my suspicions that caused him to vig elias. I think he would have vigged elias anyway. I'm not saying that was a bad move -- but I didn't do it.Norinel wrote:As far as the people who are still alive who had a hand in that, PP's the one who worries me the most. Her points are good overall, but it seems like she's been driving the town around quite a bit with her choice of targets and stuff, especially with OMG gone. That's a bad thing if she's scum, but the best way to figure that out is to figure out if the directions she's been pushing are worthwhile, which is hard to tell in the early game. The one thing we know for sure is that Elias wasn't a good direction.
Thanks for proving my point.Norinel wrote:If you're anti-town, particularly mafia, then you'd know that Elias at least wasn't in your faction, and have more general info as to figuring out what his role is. (Plus, of course, you'd know that lynching him would help you regardless of Elias' actual alignment)PP wrote:And how was I supposed to know Elias was a "bad direction"?
Well, it could be a difference in play styles. But I'm usually suspicious of your type of play style and think it has a high probability of being scum.Norinel wrote:What would you consider actually playing? If it's aggressive scumhunting, I've already mentioned that that's not something I often do unless I get a strong scent. Some people need to be shaking the thread, and some people need to be poking at it.On the other hand, Norinel, I think your play has been more watching us play and commenting, than actually playing. Which... is scummy.
I mean, unless he's my scum partner and I don't wanna buss him. But then I don't think I would even say I thought he was the play for today. I dunno. Probably I'm acting stupid.Xtoxm wrote:Hmm, maybe. I take your point.Pink Puppy wrote:Wait a second, if I was mafia/cult, I would not be worried about oman being quicklynched. I would welcome it. So don't be that suspicious.
Oman wrote:Actually, I haven't been ignoring prods. In a few games (so that it wasn't alignment based) I've been trying to try out lurking as people seem to think LAL is wrong. So I'm trying to get perspective. Unfortunatly, my findings aren't really ready, but I just don't feel right doing it any more.
Sorry.
I don't know how you can discren who may be mafia from who may be cult. Seems pretty impossible to me.Norinel wrote:That was in reference to PP- if she's anti-town, I think she's more likely to be mafia than cult, so we can wait on lynching her. (Whereas we can't really wait if we have a good suspect for the cult recruiter)XReyoX wrote:Norinel:
Why are you pointing me out particularly? and what do you mean by "mafia's more likely than cult"?
Norinel, I am not threatened by you suspecting me. I object to your playstyle, reasoning, and you not addressing my problems with you.Norinel wrote:Up to now, I just wanted to make sure everyone else realized that being literate doesn't make you town. Now I'm starting to think there's a good chance you're scum- it almost seems like you feel threatened by me for some reason, and the most obvious reason is that I'm the only one who hasn't written you off as obviously pro-town.Pink Puppy wrote:I wish I could vote Norinel at the same time as Oman.
Strong FOS: PP, which would probably be a vote change otherwise, but I'm not going to further spread out votes with a deadline upcoming.
This made me like you a lot more.Norinel wrote:Style I can't change without a significant increase in the time I can dedicate to Mafia. Reasoning and addressing your problems I can work on.PP wrote:Norinel, I am not threatened by you suspecting me. I object to your playstyle, reasoning, and you not addressing my problems with you.